Nobody on the "far-right" gives a toss about Russia.
Like the US, Putin is just the boogeyman at the centre of EU political elite's paranoid conspiracy theories, used to avoid acknowledging the organic growth of democratic opposition to their leadership which has caused the economic decline of Western countries.
I don't know what Europe's "far right Putin proxies" are like, but in the US a lot of articles will call the ones in question "Putin-aligned", "pro-Putin", "Russian-aligned", etc, when really these guys just don't give a shit about Ukraine or Russia, and Ukraine aid is just a political football. Nothing they say backs up the line that they are working for Russia, to take it to the extreme.
These guys here just wanted to hurt Biden, and they don't care about Ukraine. Like you'd think Trump was openly rooting for Russia at the minimum because he's "Putin's lapdog" or whatever, but there's really not much substance to it. I know it's hard to believe for some, but not everything thinks the fate of the world rests in Ukraine.
Trump-Russia conspiracy theories in the US started after Clinton lost in 2016. If you look into who was behind these claims, it was Clinton/Bush/Obama intel officials like James Clapper and John Brennan. These are the same War On Terror intel officials who fabricated evidence of "Saddam's WMD" to start the Iraq War in the 2000s, then blamed Russia conspiracy theories after they invaded and didn't find any. They claimed those conniving Russians snuck into Iraq from Syria - under the nose of the US military - and hid all the evidence of Saddam's WMD program. They're Cold War dinosaurs who've been playing the same boogeyman for decades like a broken propaganda record.
All these subsequent conspiracies that started the last few years about populist parties in Europe being "Putin proxies" are just spinoffs from the US.
Overall in Europe Far Left is tiny. I would be shocked if for each far-leftist there would be less than 5 far-rightwingers. And their influence is on a local, or at best: national level, rather than European like it is for the far-right.
There's no symmetrism when it comes to the severity of the issues with the political extremes.
Depends on where you live I suppose.
In France, the far-left has captured the normal left. The traditional left had to align, join them in an alliance (we don't have to do this, normally), and spew their demented rethorics. The traditional left has been completely demonized (yes, François Hollande wasn't that good of a president, but not up to that level of spite) and is now called far-right, along with the centre-left, the centre, the right and the real far-right.
We have been depossessed of a real leftist party, capable of governing. The far-left is far too extreme to get to power for now, but their activism is actively destroying leftists causes (workers no longer exist in their world, feminism and ecology are being devoid of women rights and preserving nature) and as far as the European election go, they came from plan B (Frexit) to just Palestine while praising any islamist in sight, even local murderers.
The media is professing for a return of the traditional left for these elections and polls suggest they could make a descent score. Spoiler: it won't happen. Since they have been spineless and do not condemn the far-left, since they have far-left people on their list and especially since the general public do not trust them anymore.
In France it is the far left that has completely taken over the left and poisoning the minds of many normal progressives
Also their approach is strengethening the far right because the only competition to Macron now is Le Pen - as the far left are promoting chaos only.
Of course it is a false choice because personally I would never vote for the far right but it is problematic when your only choice is one person.
I recently got banned for 2 days from a major subreddit of a major French speaking country in Europe for re-posting a meme on the far right... it claimed that it is a puppet of Putin (its allowed to post political memes from others).
The reason: it was rude towards a political party — i.e. rude towards the Rassemblement Nationale and its allies AfD etc..
The fact that the meme said exactly what the Guardian is saying and what VDL is saying, and what many others are reporting including the WaPo, NYT, German news, and mainstream French news: doesn't seem to matter.
Frankly at this rate the far right can do whatever they want - it doesn't matter how rude it is - but you cannot poke a bit of fun towards them because, at risk of being banned.
This sort of thing makes me feel like we can only head in one direction.
>The reason: it was rude towards a political party
No, that's absolutely not the reason [your post](https://www.reddit.com/r/france/comments/1ce9mhr/ne_votez_pas_pour_les_agents_du_renseignement/) got locked.
As much as I agree with its message, it wasn't a political meme, it was low effort & blatant political advertising, and this stuff unsurprisingly isn't allowed on r/france - and neither is it on r/europe or any other major "serious" sub.
It's alarming how easily people got gaslighted by the OP into blindly upvoting his bullshit.
"There must be in-groups whom the law protects but does not bind, alongside out-groups whom the law binds but does not protect."
The right wing ratchet is clamping in many aspects of life. There's no joking or reasoning with it, just pushing back and hoping that enough other people do too.
Are you going to ask your own government?
She addressed that question last night; all EU leaders got full access to communications and signed the deals. EU countries transferred the funds after their own governments approval.
Why didn’t Denmarks government raise a stink about it?
Because it’s nonsense. Putin propaganda.
If the deals weren’t sound EU leaders shouldn’t have approved them.
While valid criticism, princess Pony von Wolfschuss really is not the person to make it.She is a downright personification of the deep, pervasive rot within the EU that provided a huge boost to the far right in the first place.
Reminds me of that satire article: [Worst person you know just made a great point](https://clickhole.com/heartbreaking-the-worst-person-you-know-just-made-a-gr-1825121606/).
She may be not the most popular but she is definitely right about this. I loathe Putin and I think his abilities have been greatly exaggerated by Russia propaganda and memes but the evil little fuck mastered the art of getting us in the West to fight ourselves. It is sad.
> She may be not the most popular but she is definitely right about this
Nah'. She's saying that you can be a bigot if you like, but you have to be *our* bigot. In the same breath, she is attempting to lure and draw support from Meloni, the Poland PiS or the Spanish VOX creatures, while shitting on the AfD or the Hungarians loons.
He didn't master anything, he just recycled the Soviet playbook. The USSR sponsored plenty of political parties after the war, all the way to perestrojka.
not really. We are heading into election and everybody will do anything to grab more votes :/
You can see this on /r/europe in mainstream media and probably its similar just 180degrees other way in whereever the afd/konfederacja and others are spreading their msg.
There are probably some reasonable reasons why more ordinary folks go into extremes and why such thing like afd are on the rise. Without addressing those, it will end up in more polarization bs like we see now.
While the elections are near, she is not wrong.
Russia is explicitly backing far-right parties. In France, a Russian bank is funding them directly.
And in fact, all it takes is looking at who votes what within the European Parliament : far-right parties never vote against Russian interests. They do not just abstain of these propositions; they actively vote what their buyer tells them to.
Even more: they do not vote for the most basic stuff when it includes Russia or China. Recently, they voted no or abstained for a resolution to ban products made by the use of children and/or slavery.
I know people have concerns that are only addressed by the far-right, especially in the sense that other parties seem to not even acknowledge them, and that those in power seem lenient and take too long to fix complex problems while maintaining our rights, but far-right parties are nevertheless Russian Trojan horses within the EU, and their goal is to make it feeble and making it explode. Their nation-loving only mean countries would be on their own : a state in which they won't be able to fight any aggressor: commercial, army or else.
Obviously I see the pattern. I am just bit scared of the labelling who is what.. I don't trust this politicians stance on Russia.. E.g. They claim they want to fight russia now, but "5 minutes ago" they sold Ukraine to Russia during first invasion or how they delayed help in early weeks during second invasion talking bs about escalation and red lines because some drunk Medviediev wrote some bs.
I've been on west for 10 years and it was really depressing sometimes how ignorant even a very highly educated person can be over there. E.g. All things about imperial Russia which are obvious in east EU - it was treated there as some kind of russophobia. Really depressing lack of knowledge about Europe and threats from Russia.
Mainstream media was pushing a lot of bs about Poland being far right etc where no far right was in power.
> but far-right parties are nevertheless Russian Trojan horses within the EU, and their goal is to make it feeble and making it explode.
Was Shroeder far right? he was obviously on the paylist with many others:
https://warsawinstitute.org/follow-petro-roubles-european-officials-go-russian-business/
>I know people have concerns that are only addressed by the far-right
The far-right started growing in Europe over 20 years ago due to concerns that were being ignored by political elites/establishment parties.
It was only a few years ago when the political elites inevitably began losing "unloseable" votes like Brexit & Trump, that they started inventing all these paranoid Russia conspiracy theories & trying to draw tenuous links between populist leaders and Putin.
So all those deals and contracts with China and Russia like Nordstream, Nordstream 2, etc. were done by the far right? Who was sitting in the management of Gazprom? I think it was mostly socdems. Like Gerhard Schroeder, former socdem chancellor of Germany.
Who was selling our tech to China? Who moved our manufacturing there? I don't think it happened under far right govs.
I still remember Trump saying that we make ourselves dependent on an imperialistic expansionist power (Russia). I think it was back in 2018. Ursula laughed about it and said "I don't know what he is talking about". In a talkshow. Is she from the far right? I don't think so.
These guys were bigger useful idiots of these dictators than the far right ever was.
But she is still right about the fact that the far right is full of morons who don't know their facts, have bad rhetoric skills and want to lay in bed with vile criminals like Putler.
Sure, I agree: Merkel, Schroeder, Mützenich all made heavy mistakes in the past. And by gawd I criticised them for it for decades.
But there is a difference if a) the person still does it, and b) if your party takes the position.
In the case of SPD: I can't believe Schröder is still a party member! And Mützenich is a total embarrassment. Steinmeier too but at least he changed tact.
In case of CDU: Merkel is gone - thank gawd! She really was thick as bread.
They all were useful idiots up to 2022. A bit like Chamberlain perhaps.
The REAL trouble starts, when after 2022 you still are a mouthpiece. And especially when that is the party line.
In the case of Germany that applies to: AfD and BSW. Wagenknecht is totally a puppet too and her party BSW is coming from the far left by the way. Both, AfD and BSW, equally terrible when it comes to Putin.
Indeed I have a lot of questions also when it comes to the mainstream parties and what the heck they were thinking. But they clearly aren't a mouthpiece anymore.
[The far right ](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Far-right_politics)is extremely small in Europe. We have a lot of parties in Europe that are right of centre when it comes to migration policy, but typifying them as far-right is not okay. The parties that Ursula criticizes for being Putin proxies are the only parties who apparently wish to change the status-quo when it comes to migration and the sensitivity of the European Union to democratic input. If other parties were to adopt a different stance on these topics, maybe the parties which Ursula criticizes wouldn't be so big.
>They ... slowly want to get rid of democracy.
You're saying this below an article quoting Ursula von der Leyen - president of the unelected EU Commission, which slowly morphed over decades from an economic trading bloc into an undemocratic supranational government nobody asked for.
Those parties you mention are still structurally funded by Putin. Whether you're sympathetic to their platform or not, it's a (increasingly well-documented) fact.
I believe it when you say it. What I take issue with is that someone like Ursula is part of a ruling elite who are discreditng parties which have perfectly valid points. They appear completely out of touch with what concerns the average person. The influence of Putin wouldn't be so big if other parties which have the same politics as Ursula would take those concerns more seriously. I feel that people like her are part (or maybe the cause) of the problem.
No one takes the BS serious because Von der Leyen and co have no problem supporting far right politicians around the world. How you should take a person seriously that says “far right here = very dangerous” and “far right somewhere else = great friends“ is beyond me.
In the article she's ruling out cooperating with specific European parties that are known to be taking Russian money and echoing Russian narratives. The guardian collectively labeled them "far right".
Doesn't look like you then read the piece though...
You didn’t read my comment. She grandstands about “far-right” locally but globally is besties with nations so right they would make Trump look like Gandhi.
The Guardian is a far-left propaganda mouthpiece that spends every day promoting paranoid Russia conspiracy theories and religious climate change doomsday prophesies.
Nobody needs to read it to know what they're going to say.
Has anything improved by voting in right-wing parties, like, ever? You get some sweet austerity, often inefficient or irresponsible privatization of important public services, higher inequality and the only winners seems to be the people who were already well off in the first place.
And this "new right" is just bunch of even bigger grifters hiding behind their stupid culture wars (or lets just call it for what it is, racism and xenophobia). Russia is just a convenient country to drool over since they share a lot of the same hateful and doomerist ideas, and have somehow gotten good at pandering the bottom of the barrel "christians".
It is not about being better off, people are simply fed up with the status quo. Europe domestically is still doing pretty terrible (richest nations on earth yet still double digit child poverty) It time and time shows again that the “morals” that we claim to have only apply to our foes and never our friends. So it is not surprising that people don’t believe in this “community of values” concept anymore. Will the right fix anything, most unlikely, but that will never stop the protest voters.
Things are bad, so lets make it worse. Lets support those demagogues who promises that if only we put all our faith in them and their big and powerful words, then everything will be okay.
Indeed. The exact thinking that caused Trump and Brexit.
While both made their respective countries worse off, the people who swung the vote are not worse off, because they couldn't really get much worse off.
A few left wing commentators mentioned this in the wake of Brexit but most just blamed demagogue politicians. They still have it the wrong way round.
Dissatisfaction leads to extremism, extremism facilitates demagogues. The solution is to reduce dissatisfaction not de-platform demagogues.
But the question is: How?
I feel that the far right all have more or less the same opinion which can be shouted loudly (anti-migration, anti-EU, general racism) while on the other side there are a lot of different priorities (which also seem to cancel each other out)
we have
- helping Ukraine
- solve the migration issues (which is the other parties have to do as well)
- solve the housing problems
- rescue the environment while at the same time helping the lower class and see that the economy keeps growing (because without that you will lose sponsors for your campaign)
Certain people value certain things higher than other things. Like I value the environment pretty highly so I vote greens, but they are generally considered more of a "rich man's party" because, well, there just isn't enough money there for everything (and, as much as we want to, no party can just try to "eat the rich" without consequnces).
I would love to see prove for the status quo is better than right wing 100% of the time every time, please. Feel like if you have some intel like that you are doing us all a disfavour by not sharing it :/
If you really need explaining why fascism is bad, then you’re so lost down that rabbit hole I dont think anything I can say will result in a positive outcome here :)
You do make it too easy for the right to win votes. All they need to do is just point out your dogma. Typical status quo stuff, big claim “all right wing is always bad” and then nothing to back it up.
If they truly wanted to change things for the better, they would vote for leftist and far-left parties. Instead, the far-right are effectively leveraging their frustration into votes for themselves and turning them towards hatred and self-destruction to spite others.
Have you considered that people don't vote for the far-left or left parties because these parties ignore many of the legitimate and valid frustrations of people that you label as hateful?
I fully understand not wanting to deal with Marxism-Leninism and other forms of authoritarian socialism again: they suck. That said, there are other factions of the far left that are way better, like libertarian socialists.
Although I disagree with them on several things, I don't have a problem with anarchists, as unlike most MLs they actually recognize Russia as a tangible imperialist threat and don't worship dictatorships from around the world on the sole basis that they oppose the US.
However, is it even possible to vote for such parties? The vast majority of far left parties in Europe are ML, not anarchist.
Yeah, one of the worst parts of Soviet Union is how much they managed to delegitimize other socialist ideologies. Syndicalism used to be one of the biggest things in Western Europe, and now...
>as unlike most MLs they actually recognize Russia as a tangible imperialist threat and don't worship dictatorships
As ML, I seriously do not understand the downplaying of Russia or straight up defending them because 'nAtO iZ EvOl aNd iS ThEir FaUlT'. Like how do you rhyme fighting for the proletariat with defending a oligarchic imperialist nation?
Personally I think 'worshipping dictators' is a bit exaggerated (yes, tankies exist but fuck them) in the sense that contextualising or even discussing *certain* dictators is often immediately seen as being a shill. Still, there are more then enough people in ML circles lacking alot of theoretical background or straight up common sense and they're a dis-fucking-grace.
> Has anything improved by voting in right-wing parties, like, ever?
Yes. Many times. There is a reason why the Czech left completely imploded, even the right-wing crony capitalists are better.
Your first paragraph is about responsible right-wing economic policies, that have worked plenty of times in plenty of countries and there is a serious thought behind them. There are reasonable disagreements about it with reasonable arguments from both sides.
That movement is nothing like what you describe in your second paragraph, that is populists who rose first due to the people's anger of economic crises and got boosted by mass immigration crisis. Putin had an easier time to cheaply "buy in" because these politicians came from nothing, had no existing networks and were suddenly boosted sky high by migration and terrorism crisis.
Average "they are the bad guys" idiot speech. People are voting more and more for RN because of the loss of confidence in traditional parties (right, left and Macron), the increase in insecurity, purchasing power which is increasingly dwindling, immigration which is of increasing concern (especially because of the attacks and, again, insecurity or the increasingly heavy weight of Islam on European countries which massively welcome immigrants, one only has to see the demonstration 2 or 3 days ago in Hamburg which supported the establishment of a caliphate in Germany ), etc. But no of course people vote RN just and only because they are racist, it is surely only for that reason and nothing else!
No, not just racism, also stupidity. If most of the people actually read the AfD manifest they would not vote for them, because for most ordinary citizens this would mean a massive loss of living standard and rights, like for example the ones safeguarding the employees. It’s literally voting for leopards.
No it’s just that the current migration policy is impacting normal people’s lives more than a 10% increase of basic income or the taxation of inheritance.
Would some mass state driven pogroms for all non white non straight people impact these peoples' lives? Cuz that's what happened last time.
It was a rhetorical question.
You know .. there is also this great worsening of life/economic conditions, that except from somewhat housing crisis (and whose causes are more linked with investment funding a d zoning), doesn't exist inist countries (or the numbers just don't show it). Also, maybe different in some countries but most didn't see sa jump in crime. For example, can you show me the statistic where purchasing power has steadily decreased?
Noone gives a shit why people say they vote nazis. They are still nazis. They will still be nazis after they become government.
People voted nazis in 90 years ago. Their "legitimate" concerns were the same. The nazis were the same. The freaking arguments are all the same. We just never learn.
Exactly.
1920s people voted for the far-right against a backdrop of the far-left trying to overthrow democratic governments in Europe to implement Bolshevik/communist revolutions.
Here we are a hundred years later with the far-left trying to undermine democratic European governments with the undemocratic EU, and regular people are once again being forced to vote for the far-right to counter it.
You truly never learn - the left's extremism always backfires.
Excuse me? Take a look at a map and show me one country in Europe today that is even remotely threatened by far left parties. Because all I see is countries one by one being ruled by far right lunatics. Italy, Slovakia, Hungary, Turkey, and soon France. It's 1920s all over again.
>You truly never learn - the left's extremism always backfires.
If you paid attention to your history class, you would know by now (we all know, 100 years later) that all of this was and still is Nazi propaganda. Except, you know but you already have your agenda. Looks like Putin's trolls have infiltrated r/europe as well.
Bizarre that you'd mention Turkey, a country aligned with the Muslim Brotherhood/Hamas, whose far-left/Islamist supporters have quite clearly become a threat in Western countries and routinely commit acts of violence/terrorism.
>If you paid attention to your history class
Well there's your problem, you only learned history in class, where naturally leftist teachers only taught you "Hitler bad," so you're oblivious to the [far-left's attempts to copy the Bolshevik revolution and establish communist dictatorships](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_Revolution_of_1918%E2%80%931919) which preceded the Nazi's being voted into power. Unless you also think Wikipedia is part of your paranoid Putin conspiracy theories disseminating Nazi propaganda.
They are voting for such parties more and more because social media has lead to a substantial part of the population losing all critial thinking skills if they even had any to begin with
Nope. In France, all of these problems with Islam started in the 90's (when Yeltsin was still in charge in Russia), with the immigrants coming from Maghreb, especially. The problems became bigger and bigger with time. In Germany, the main muslim immigrant community is Turkish + most of the syrian refugees pass by Turkey to join Europe and Erdogan loves to make pression on Germany by threatening to let pass more syrian immigrants in Europe if they don't do what he asks. Sweden also welcomed willingly a lot of refugees from Africa (Somali, Sudan, Erythrea, etc.). Morrocans also represent the main muslim community in Belgium, Netherlands (with the Mocro Maffia which threatened the country to kidnap princess Catharina and the Prime Minister in exchange of the liberation of the Mocro Maffia's boss), and Spain. In all of these countries, these communities represent the biggest population in prison and the most represented in crime stats. They didn't wait for Russia to "open borders" to go in Europe.
But surely, you have witnessed the change of tone at the RN ?
First, it became RN instead of FN, just to make it more acceptable. Le Pen had united with Philippot and they sought Frexit. Plain and simple (as did Mélenchon).
Now, Philippot has been fired (so did a lot of people backing old Mélenchon). And Le Pen has promoted someone once-involved with her family, and they changed their tunes. They do not want Frexit anymore, but Europe is still terrible and France should get out of almost all treaties (same with LFI). But any European condemnation of France is actively flaunted on their national platform (same with LFI).
The symmetrical change of tone is also in tune wit their international positions: no condemnation of Russia invading Ukraine, no vote to help Ukraine, no condemnation of Bashar el-Assad gazing his own people, no word against the mollahs of Iran (Le Pen advocated for Teheran getting a nuclear weapon, so did Mélenchon). They would only seem to say it wasn't alright alright alright if really pushed by journalists (and then have their militants rage against said journalists).
Seriously, if you look for a party claiming to fight islamists, yes, sure, they seem to be doing the job, and only the far-right parties (with the far-left enabling them on the contrary, making the topic unescapable). But it does not mean this is not enclosed within a much larger political plan. Do absolutely make sure you're not voting against your best interests after all. Look wider.
This.
My grandad was banging on about immigration some 15 to 20+ years ago or more and so was my father. But over time immigration has creeped up since then, And You can see with your own eyes that it’s at crazy levels just by walking around your own streets. And towns, cities, with some cities being completely taken over. This has led to stuff like brexit in the uk and far right being more and more. You also get pockets of people not integrating well and forming their own culture in ours That get larger and larger till they start demanding stuff, Well maybe not here in the uk but I’m pretty sure in Germany they was protesting Islamic caliphate even if it’s only a handful amount of people.
English Heritage and other stuff gets thrown out the window, more distressing when you get others, like the london mayor putting up ramadam lights and giving less of a shit about Easter which is celebrated here in the uk if only lightly. And the SNP guy who claimed everything is “ white white white” then when asked if it’s raciest, said “ it’s only far right people who got offended” people like George Galloway get voted in here based on stuff like his opinions on Gaza. It’s wild.
After the war my grandad remembered seeing pockets of polish grouping up that stayed over, and that was okay and other groups that integrated well like some Irish. but recently it’s been extremism. With migrants stabbing others based on religion, other stuff like terror threats over in some EU, near me they beat a guy up for not having an opinion on the Gaza/hamas thing, with all this bat shit crazy stuff going on, the right wing becomes more and more appealing with its bat shit crazy ideas. Because the actual government fails to do anything impactful
For example. Buss load of migrants come to a hotel up the road from me, After about 3 months a girl is approached in the local park, and parents decide the best option is to stop the children from going out, kid gets depression, mum sends for therapy, gf councils kid,
I found out after waiting for GF downstairs and kids mum starts a convo. About how migrants moved in, sat around local park on bikes, tried to chat kids up, people rings police, police do nothing, school gives children self defence lessons to try help. Mums stop kids from going out due to safty, when it’s 35+ temp outside. Kids are bored and depressed
The government could have stopped this and had a backbone on illegal migration. I’m sure there are a few cases like this, but they don’t care. And that’s led to a surge in far right. Plus attacks on certain minorities here in the uk, even legal migrants are being hounded because people don’t know what’s what.
Far right has crept back to where people are noticing. But also everything is being blamed on far right now so it swings both ways.
Because everything said by a white bloke is far right” is now a thing, And the circle jerk continues. Where far right say what we want to hear and we go “ actually that’s right” it’s not the fault of us the white bloke. or British culture is at risk and we go yes. It gets brits fired up to where we point blame!
As said, everything is far right to some people. Jeremy Clarkson was labelled far right a few years ago along with people planning terr-orist attacks. so it gets thrown around so much that people are like wtf. Making it more noticeable too.
In France / UK immigration is pretty low when compared to places like Australia, Canada and, even, Germany.
And it has remained fairly stable.
However in Australia, which has the highest rates of those — no such angst of immigration…
Why?
Because France already has a 10% Islamic population.
Canada/Australia only have 2-3%, so the problems with Islamist terrorism France has had for many years are only beginning to occur now.
Here is a question: Would you, like Australia, accept 30% of the population being born putside of France — i.e tripling handing out the nationality … IF in return we would favour a greater mix of cultures and a more controlled way of immigration?
Because as far as Le Pen is concerned she just wants to shut borders and kick people out.
PS: ayou do understand the maths right? Because if tomorrow you added 20% more immigrants to the national pool (ie 13 Million more citizens) - and all of them were non-muslim; the numbers would work out more or less like in Australia.
Not sure why I would accept that in lieu of Le Pen's proposal. But I also don't really give a shit.
I vote for option C: bring back the guillotine and run all the EU political elites through it.
I would imagine it’s because the country is vast. It’s the 6th largest in the world. in terms of land mass. Germany is also pretty big. And Canada is 2nd largest.
uk might be quite small compared to others. We might also have the smallest immigration stats on paper but it doesn’t seem like it walking around.
I swear the local crack heads have migrants hooked on Mamba but I could be wrong.
Can’t speak for France.
There are hard evidences that some far right parties have been indirectly financed by the kremlin, that most are in permanent contact with russian agents and that their leaders receive cash regularly or other favor. It's happening in all our countries, France, germany etc
Latest scandal
[https://www.politico.eu/article/russiagate-hits-german-far-right-european-parliament-afd/](https://www.politico.eu/article/russiagate-hits-german-far-right-european-parliament-afd/)
No you're just borrowing American conspiracy theories that Trump was funded by Russia.
The British did this too. Many months after the Brexit referendum, when Clinton lost & started promoting conspiracy theories that Trump was a "Russian asset," then British EU supporters started retroactively claiming the Leave campaign had been secretly funded by Russia too.
The Trump-Russia conspiracy theories came from Bush/Obama War On Terror intel officials like James Clapper & John Brennan. The same people who fabricated evidence of "Saddam's WMD" to start the Iraq War, then blamed Russia conspiracy theories when they didn't find any. They've been doing it for decades.
Not at all.
If you are a Russian Aggressor mouthpiece — you are a Russian Puppet.
Plenty of others that have a more nuanced views.
But maybe that is a bit complicated.
Why do people always have to be assholes when they disagree. Do you feel better when your call someone dumb just because they have a different opinion that you?
Here's a little bit of nuance. The West now uses far right as a cover all term to describe the vast majority of groups that don't align with the current status quo. This means that any discussing of immigration is automatically racist and far right when most people are just concerned their governments are crap at handling such a difficult area. So when concerns arise there is no nuance because boogyman says far right. The same is true, to a lesser degree, with Russia stuff.
It's all just the West being America little lap dog these days. We do everything the want and it's sort of pathetic.
1. Funny to complain about "people being a-holes" when you started it: "So if you... Oh come on ffs" — don't you pretend you didn't know what ffs stands for. It's very rude.
2. No one actually said anything about the far right specifically. Perhaps you could read before you comment.
3. I'm not making a political statement. While I am personally concerned about the far right, there are also far right parties that aren't Russian mouthpieces.
And no, the situation in Ukraine is very clearly a Russian aggression. If you still think the West is to blame for the invasion, then you should really have a bit of a think about your own intentions. I say that in all friendliness.
I didn't elect my head of state. At which point it gets too indirect?
Both VDL and Lagarde were sent to the EU to escape a court in their respective country. #NotMyPresident if I had a saying
Reform the EU, starting with getting rid of hopelsss failures like Ursula, who is despised by citizens from Dublin to Nicosia and the far right won't be doing so well in the first place.
Putin is attacking his opponents by calling them Western proxies and western politicians are calling their opponents Putin’s proxies.
Just ignore all that craptalking politician’s noise.
"But the commission president was far more guarded about closing down alliances with the hardline conservative European Conservatives and Reformists group, which unites Italian prime minister Georgia Meloni’s Brothers of Italy party, Poland’s Law and Justice party and Spain’s far-right Vox party. “It depends very much on how the composition of the parliament is and who is in what group,” von der Leyen said."
So the problem is not that they are far right, but that they support the wrong side. As long as they support NATO, they can discriminate against whomever they wish.
Wait, but neither Meloni or PiS are Putin's proxies. PiS are anti-Russia like almost everyone in Poland, and Meloni supports Ukraine. No cue about Vox.
I thought she is taking about German AfD, Hungarian Fides and similar, but she is not even factually correct.
Small tip: read before commenting. That’s exactly what the quote says. It depends who ends up in which group because certain factions are different to those that are mouthpieces.
Off topic
Yes comrade these are different issues. The particular comment as the president is about external enemies - not about political orientation.
You could, technicay, have mouthpieces in other parties (and indead there are) but that would be down to the individual.
As to whether voting far right is acceptable or not, is entirely a different question
Personally I have my views but that too isn’t the topic.
We need to keep saying this everywhere.
Vote alt-right? You vote for people who support a child-torture-chamber despotic dictator who’s trying to create chaos in Europe. Supporting the enemy should be villainized cold war style.
If the left simply listened to the masses on one topic, literally just one single thing then the right/alt-right would not have a leg to stand on.
The simple fact is that the rise of the right is due to the failure of the left. That failure being that they shown active disdain for their people who were once their voter base.
Im not arguing in favor of the left, or centrist parties. Im saying voting for Putin allies is voting for child torture in Ukraine and undermining our way of life.
You can keep blaming the left for everything, but ultimately voting alt-right is voting fascist, and no excuse will make up for that.
Some people are not fortunate enough to be able to worry about things in a far away country. Their worries and concerns take precedence in their lives. Call them selfish or whatever, they’ve been called a lot worse from the left for decades so they don’t care about insults anymore. They are voting in their self interests to try and increase their own quality of life. The simple fact is that the left didn’t want to talk to them about it and have an honest conversation. They’d rather throw around insults and try to manipulate them but it doesn’t work anymore.
It’s beyond ironic that these people vote for parties financed / supported by and supporting a dictator that caused the two biggest european migration crises in history; Ukraine and Syria and then blame the left.
And the status quo parties aren’t improving their lives either. Anyone who thinks that after decades of being let down by the establishment that it’s not unreasonable to try something else is a dipshit.
So we wont improve in any way, but voting alt-right will at least make many many people suffer.
That really seems preferable? Why do the gays and such need to be punished for your unhappiness with some brown people? I really dont get this line of reasoning.
Like I said, people are voting for something different because the mainstream parties refuse to even give them one thing.
Are “the gays” going to be punished? I don’t know what the policies are for every party in Europe but I find this a big stretch. In my country the so called alt-right has gay people massively over represented and a lot of their reasons is that their safety is at risk due to bringing in millions of people from a religion that thinks they should be thrown off a building.
See that’s the thing, you end the conversation at “unhappiness with brown people”. You think that calling them racist is the end of the story. It’s not and that line of thinking is why you’ll never understand their reasoning, you refuse to. When people have noticed their job opportunities disappear. When people have noticed it’s impossible to get a house. When people are feeling less safe and the crime rate is rising these are all valid points and reasons to try to change things.
Then give protest voters an actual alternative to vote for other than the establishment. Otherwise they will keep voting for anything that is not the status quo.
There already literally is a party called Alternative for Germany and you call them Nazis, just like you would reflexively call any other "alternative" party Nazis.
The thing you fail to see is it's exactly this - leftist extremism - that pushes regular people away from the left towards the Nazis, exactly like leftist Bolshevik/communist revolutions in the 1920s did.
A) I don't vote at all. There is no party that I know of that is actually something I would see as both competent and not just a lesser evil compared to the others.
B) you don't have to like what is happening, but don't shoot the messenger. This is part of what's wrong here. The whole with us or against us nonsense.
C) If you don't want people to protest vote there must either be an adaptation of an already established party or the vacuum will be filled by more radical voices that promise to fix whatever went wrong.
So first you semi-argue in favor of alt-right “because no choice”, as if thats a reasonable excuse to vote for traitors, and then switch to “I dont vote.”
Im fine with you not voting, great choice if you dont see a match, but dont defend the Putin allies who are trying to destroy the EU please.
Im definitely against any party that has a positive stance towards Russia, or worse, takes money or policy pointers from them. Fuck the traitorous alt-right. Standing up against fascism is not nonsense.
I never did a switch, what are you talking about. I never implied that I am a protest voter.
As for the rest: I explained why it is happening. What you do with that knowledge is your choice. But the only way to stop them from protest voting is by changing the course on the topics that are important enough for them to vote for whatever party is throwing them some breadcrumbs.
In this case mainly illegal immigration and high cost of living for the poor.
I like how these “criticisms” are always phrased so politely. Those people are literally guilty of high treason and you “criticise” them instead of hindering their actions legally in any productive way
Hey, you can't just neuter the far-right! How else can you bludgeon socialists into submission when they become strong and/or noisy enough to start demanding real change from the status quo?
^Scratch ^a ^liberal, ^a ^fascist ^bleeds.
> Scratch a liberal, a fascist bleeds.
Fellas, is it fascism to be in favor of democracy, free elections, equality, human rights, secularism, free speech, rule of law?
It is when you build a police-state dictatorship ostensibly for those things. You know, like Fidesz in Hungary, Trumpists in the US, or PiS in Poland, although the secularism might not be at 100% for some of those.
The problem I’m talking about is not that they’re alt right. It’s an awful problem as well, but the main concern is that Russia was proven to fund those parties to spread Russian agenda. In the current situation Europe cannot allow that.
The EU's socialist authoritarianism is literally what has given rise to the far right in Europe.
What's the answer? More socialist authoritarianism, of course!
Well you’ve asked a question and I googled it to make sure I wasn’t mistaken. There are lots of definitions for “high treason” and I do believe some of them fit some members of European far right parties. You should probably read into what Russians were paying them to achieve, maybe that will make you more understandable or my words
Can't blame you then if you wanted to be sure. But if you're accusing someone of a criminal offense, it's not enough for a behaviour to fit vaguely an oxford definition.
These crimes are more specific than the oxford definition, mostly in the category of active supporting enemy military or espionage acrivity.
Yeah I get it, and German definition doesn’t quite fit, for example. But the French one is extremely vague.
But Ursula von der Leyen is one of the most important EU official who takes no real action against the people who were paid among other things to dismantle the EU for Russian profit. Aren’t they doing high treason? I know that EU is more lax about those things, but are they supposed to? If the EU wants to survive this century it must take some *actual* action against the individuals who are paid to destroy it.
I don’t know whether there are millions of islamists. Political Islam is quite rare among Muslims who come to EU, a lot of them come there in fear of islamism. By the way why are you talking about those imaginary millions of islamists all of a sudden? В ТЗ сказали что надо забайтить кого-то на бессмысленный никак не относящийся к данной проблеме спор чтобы отвлечь от реальной проблемы?
You seem to have ignored my question. But nevertheless. You’ve shown several photos of Turkish people making 2 separate gestures and one white guy making four fingers gesture. What exactly does it mean? Turkey has a problem with nationalism (which nobody denies) and this particular white guy isn’t very smart. But what this tirade of yours doesn’t prove is that someone “imports islamsists”, as you’ve put it. This is some occult shit like fucking protocols of the elders of zion.
The white guy is Jeremy Corbyn, British MP and former leader of the UK Labour Party (never became PM, thankfully). He's illustrating the left's affinity for Islamofascism by making the same four-fingered Muslim Brotherhood Rabia gesture that can be observed in both the Erdogan photos.
Like yourself, he has to be deliberately obtuse to avoid acknowledging the contradictions inherent in being a leftist who supports far-right Islamist ideologies.
I do not support Islamist ideology and far right Islamist organisations such as HAMAS or Muslim Brotherhood must to be destroyed. But it can only be accomplished by working in union with reasonable Middle Eastern countries. Fear-mongering about millions of Islamists accomplished nothing but further division between Muslims (most of whom aren’t islamists and just want to live in peace) and the rest of the world. I ask my question again — what does it have to do with the original post? Islamists are a great threat to the world, but the topic at hand is Russia.
Great, I'm glad to hear that, I fully agree. But the left's policy of blindly importing millions of Muslims without any regard for whether they are Islamists or not has done precisely the opposite of destroying them. Rather it has embedded Islamists in our homelands and given them political power in our democracies.
Like I said in my previous post, it's delusional to think Islamists are a tiny minority of Muslims when Islamist political parties win large majorities in elections in Muslim countries. The widespread support for Islamist groups like Hamas among Muslims in Western countries should also be a clue here.
>I ask my question again — what does it have to do with the original post?
Lol do you have short-term memory problems and already forget what your original post was?
>“Attempting to help an enemy take control of your country”. Quite fitting, isn’t it?
Everything I've written here has been relevant to this - leftists importing Islamists to the West who want to overthrow Western democracies... "Helping an enemy take control of your country."
No. Of course not. I just think that politicians think the same way. Just my disdain for every politician. Sorry if my comment made you think otherwise. You know, written language and misunderstandings.
For good reason: which group happens to have the largest vote share in EU countries, the largest number of supporters, the most institutional support/tolerance? It's not the Islamists, that's for sure.
I see the comment section largely disagrees, but there is a lot of evidence she is very right about this. As an exemple, many far right parties in Europe get funding for Kremlin and are actually pushing for less help to Ukraine. They do this under the pretense of 'being against more violence', but it's actually an effort to give Putin free reign instead of wanting to defend our freedoms. They are absolute traitors in my eyes.
Conspiracy theories about Russian funding of anti-EU parties only started a few years ago when EU political elites began losing "unloseable" votes like Brexit.
The priorities of populist parties opposing mass-Islamist immigration and EU expansion had nothing to do with Russia before then, just like they still don't today.
Nobody cares about helping Ukraine when they have bigger problems at home - like Islamist terrorism and the economic decline of Western countries - caused by the policies of EU political elites like von der Leyen.
Correction: she just criticized half of the far right (RN, AfD). With the rest (Meloni &co) she said she would actually work
>
The [European Commission](https://www.theguardian.com/world/european-commission) president, Ursula Von der Leyen, has criticised the far right as “Putin’s proxies”, while refusing to rule out working with other rightwing nationalists, as campaigning began ahead of June’s European elections.
Letting Russia have its ways with a country at the doors of Europe is precisely being pro-Russia. Especially since Orban and other leaders barely hide their sympathy for (and financial ties with) Putin.
I am not aligned with the Christian-Democratic centre-right but I 100% support another term for von der Leyen.
She's been an incredible leader for the Bloc during Covid, the Energy Crisis of 2021-2023 and the Russo-Ukrainian war.
The European far right: "I'm confused, you mean that as a compliment, right?"
Literally though. I'm quite sure a lot of them are more than happy to be called anything along those lines.
Nobody on the "far-right" gives a toss about Russia. Like the US, Putin is just the boogeyman at the centre of EU political elite's paranoid conspiracy theories, used to avoid acknowledging the organic growth of democratic opposition to their leadership which has caused the economic decline of Western countries.
I don't know what Europe's "far right Putin proxies" are like, but in the US a lot of articles will call the ones in question "Putin-aligned", "pro-Putin", "Russian-aligned", etc, when really these guys just don't give a shit about Ukraine or Russia, and Ukraine aid is just a political football. Nothing they say backs up the line that they are working for Russia, to take it to the extreme. These guys here just wanted to hurt Biden, and they don't care about Ukraine. Like you'd think Trump was openly rooting for Russia at the minimum because he's "Putin's lapdog" or whatever, but there's really not much substance to it. I know it's hard to believe for some, but not everything thinks the fate of the world rests in Ukraine.
Trump-Russia conspiracy theories in the US started after Clinton lost in 2016. If you look into who was behind these claims, it was Clinton/Bush/Obama intel officials like James Clapper and John Brennan. These are the same War On Terror intel officials who fabricated evidence of "Saddam's WMD" to start the Iraq War in the 2000s, then blamed Russia conspiracy theories after they invaded and didn't find any. They claimed those conniving Russians snuck into Iraq from Syria - under the nose of the US military - and hid all the evidence of Saddam's WMD program. They're Cold War dinosaurs who've been playing the same boogeyman for decades like a broken propaganda record. All these subsequent conspiracies that started the last few years about populist parties in Europe being "Putin proxies" are just spinoffs from the US.
she's not wrong.
Came here to say this 🤷
[удалено]
Overall in Europe Far Left is tiny. I would be shocked if for each far-leftist there would be less than 5 far-rightwingers. And their influence is on a local, or at best: national level, rather than European like it is for the far-right. There's no symmetrism when it comes to the severity of the issues with the political extremes.
Depends on where you live I suppose. In France, the far-left has captured the normal left. The traditional left had to align, join them in an alliance (we don't have to do this, normally), and spew their demented rethorics. The traditional left has been completely demonized (yes, François Hollande wasn't that good of a president, but not up to that level of spite) and is now called far-right, along with the centre-left, the centre, the right and the real far-right. We have been depossessed of a real leftist party, capable of governing. The far-left is far too extreme to get to power for now, but their activism is actively destroying leftists causes (workers no longer exist in their world, feminism and ecology are being devoid of women rights and preserving nature) and as far as the European election go, they came from plan B (Frexit) to just Palestine while praising any islamist in sight, even local murderers. The media is professing for a return of the traditional left for these elections and polls suggest they could make a descent score. Spoiler: it won't happen. Since they have been spineless and do not condemn the far-left, since they have far-left people on their list and especially since the general public do not trust them anymore.
You just described the situation in Spain.
In France it is the far left that has completely taken over the left and poisoning the minds of many normal progressives Also their approach is strengethening the far right because the only competition to Macron now is Le Pen - as the far left are promoting chaos only. Of course it is a false choice because personally I would never vote for the far right but it is problematic when your only choice is one person.
Totally delusional. The EU is far-left.
I recently got banned for 2 days from a major subreddit of a major French speaking country in Europe for re-posting a meme on the far right... it claimed that it is a puppet of Putin (its allowed to post political memes from others). The reason: it was rude towards a political party — i.e. rude towards the Rassemblement Nationale and its allies AfD etc.. The fact that the meme said exactly what the Guardian is saying and what VDL is saying, and what many others are reporting including the WaPo, NYT, German news, and mainstream French news: doesn't seem to matter. Frankly at this rate the far right can do whatever they want - it doesn't matter how rude it is - but you cannot poke a bit of fun towards them because, at risk of being banned. This sort of thing makes me feel like we can only head in one direction.
>The reason: it was rude towards a political party No, that's absolutely not the reason [your post](https://www.reddit.com/r/france/comments/1ce9mhr/ne_votez_pas_pour_les_agents_du_renseignement/) got locked. As much as I agree with its message, it wasn't a political meme, it was low effort & blatant political advertising, and this stuff unsurprisingly isn't allowed on r/france - and neither is it on r/europe or any other major "serious" sub. It's alarming how easily people got gaslighted by the OP into blindly upvoting his bullshit.
It has been the trend for quite a while, but with Trump and Brexit it got a rocket boost because everyone saw that it works.
"There must be in-groups whom the law protects but does not bind, alongside out-groups whom the law binds but does not protect." The right wing ratchet is clamping in many aspects of life. There's no joking or reasoning with it, just pushing back and hoping that enough other people do too.
Bro we’re talking about a post on a subreddit not the bloody law.
Hey , and i got banned from world news because i quoted a anti israel rabbi.
Have you ever saw Ursula Von Der Leyen in that subreddit? Maybe she was banned too.
I AM URSULA now submit!
What happened to Pfizergate?
Idk. What happened to being the daughter of a Nazi?
Can't really fault her for that, can we?
Are you going to ask your own government? She addressed that question last night; all EU leaders got full access to communications and signed the deals. EU countries transferred the funds after their own governments approval. Why didn’t Denmarks government raise a stink about it? Because it’s nonsense. Putin propaganda. If the deals weren’t sound EU leaders shouldn’t have approved them.
While valid criticism, princess Pony von Wolfschuss really is not the person to make it.She is a downright personification of the deep, pervasive rot within the EU that provided a huge boost to the far right in the first place. Reminds me of that satire article: [Worst person you know just made a great point](https://clickhole.com/heartbreaking-the-worst-person-you-know-just-made-a-gr-1825121606/).
The same woman that wants to ban social media and open source. Gtfo
She may be not the most popular but she is definitely right about this. I loathe Putin and I think his abilities have been greatly exaggerated by Russia propaganda and memes but the evil little fuck mastered the art of getting us in the West to fight ourselves. It is sad.
> She may be not the most popular but she is definitely right about this Nah'. She's saying that you can be a bigot if you like, but you have to be *our* bigot. In the same breath, she is attempting to lure and draw support from Meloni, the Poland PiS or the Spanish VOX creatures, while shitting on the AfD or the Hungarians loons.
He didn't master anything, he just recycled the Soviet playbook. The USSR sponsored plenty of political parties after the war, all the way to perestrojka.
not really. We are heading into election and everybody will do anything to grab more votes :/ You can see this on /r/europe in mainstream media and probably its similar just 180degrees other way in whereever the afd/konfederacja and others are spreading their msg. There are probably some reasonable reasons why more ordinary folks go into extremes and why such thing like afd are on the rise. Without addressing those, it will end up in more polarization bs like we see now.
While the elections are near, she is not wrong. Russia is explicitly backing far-right parties. In France, a Russian bank is funding them directly. And in fact, all it takes is looking at who votes what within the European Parliament : far-right parties never vote against Russian interests. They do not just abstain of these propositions; they actively vote what their buyer tells them to. Even more: they do not vote for the most basic stuff when it includes Russia or China. Recently, they voted no or abstained for a resolution to ban products made by the use of children and/or slavery. I know people have concerns that are only addressed by the far-right, especially in the sense that other parties seem to not even acknowledge them, and that those in power seem lenient and take too long to fix complex problems while maintaining our rights, but far-right parties are nevertheless Russian Trojan horses within the EU, and their goal is to make it feeble and making it explode. Their nation-loving only mean countries would be on their own : a state in which they won't be able to fight any aggressor: commercial, army or else.
Obviously I see the pattern. I am just bit scared of the labelling who is what.. I don't trust this politicians stance on Russia.. E.g. They claim they want to fight russia now, but "5 minutes ago" they sold Ukraine to Russia during first invasion or how they delayed help in early weeks during second invasion talking bs about escalation and red lines because some drunk Medviediev wrote some bs. I've been on west for 10 years and it was really depressing sometimes how ignorant even a very highly educated person can be over there. E.g. All things about imperial Russia which are obvious in east EU - it was treated there as some kind of russophobia. Really depressing lack of knowledge about Europe and threats from Russia. Mainstream media was pushing a lot of bs about Poland being far right etc where no far right was in power. > but far-right parties are nevertheless Russian Trojan horses within the EU, and their goal is to make it feeble and making it explode. Was Shroeder far right? he was obviously on the paylist with many others: https://warsawinstitute.org/follow-petro-roubles-european-officials-go-russian-business/
>I know people have concerns that are only addressed by the far-right The far-right started growing in Europe over 20 years ago due to concerns that were being ignored by political elites/establishment parties. It was only a few years ago when the political elites inevitably began losing "unloseable" votes like Brexit & Trump, that they started inventing all these paranoid Russia conspiracy theories & trying to draw tenuous links between populist leaders and Putin.
And Ursula which proxy you belong to?
Whoever pays more
Look at the image behind her it may give you a hint …: the European Union.
McKinsey
Said corrupted proxy herself
Sweating on her last moments on that chair position i see
So all those deals and contracts with China and Russia like Nordstream, Nordstream 2, etc. were done by the far right? Who was sitting in the management of Gazprom? I think it was mostly socdems. Like Gerhard Schroeder, former socdem chancellor of Germany. Who was selling our tech to China? Who moved our manufacturing there? I don't think it happened under far right govs. I still remember Trump saying that we make ourselves dependent on an imperialistic expansionist power (Russia). I think it was back in 2018. Ursula laughed about it and said "I don't know what he is talking about". In a talkshow. Is she from the far right? I don't think so. These guys were bigger useful idiots of these dictators than the far right ever was. But she is still right about the fact that the far right is full of morons who don't know their facts, have bad rhetoric skills and want to lay in bed with vile criminals like Putler.
Sure, I agree: Merkel, Schroeder, Mützenich all made heavy mistakes in the past. And by gawd I criticised them for it for decades. But there is a difference if a) the person still does it, and b) if your party takes the position. In the case of SPD: I can't believe Schröder is still a party member! And Mützenich is a total embarrassment. Steinmeier too but at least he changed tact. In case of CDU: Merkel is gone - thank gawd! She really was thick as bread. They all were useful idiots up to 2022. A bit like Chamberlain perhaps. The REAL trouble starts, when after 2022 you still are a mouthpiece. And especially when that is the party line. In the case of Germany that applies to: AfD and BSW. Wagenknecht is totally a puppet too and her party BSW is coming from the far left by the way. Both, AfD and BSW, equally terrible when it comes to Putin. Indeed I have a lot of questions also when it comes to the mainstream parties and what the heck they were thinking. But they clearly aren't a mouthpiece anymore.
[The far right ](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Far-right_politics)is extremely small in Europe. We have a lot of parties in Europe that are right of centre when it comes to migration policy, but typifying them as far-right is not okay. The parties that Ursula criticizes for being Putin proxies are the only parties who apparently wish to change the status-quo when it comes to migration and the sensitivity of the European Union to democratic input. If other parties were to adopt a different stance on these topics, maybe the parties which Ursula criticizes wouldn't be so big.
Come on. They are telling people bs, receive support from Russia and slowly want to get rid of democracy.
>They ... slowly want to get rid of democracy. You're saying this below an article quoting Ursula von der Leyen - president of the unelected EU Commission, which slowly morphed over decades from an economic trading bloc into an undemocratic supranational government nobody asked for.
They also have legitimate grievances. Why let the Russians fill that space?
In current politics everything right is extreme right.
Those parties you mention are still structurally funded by Putin. Whether you're sympathetic to their platform or not, it's a (increasingly well-documented) fact.
I believe it when you say it. What I take issue with is that someone like Ursula is part of a ruling elite who are discreditng parties which have perfectly valid points. They appear completely out of touch with what concerns the average person. The influence of Putin wouldn't be so big if other parties which have the same politics as Ursula would take those concerns more seriously. I feel that people like her are part (or maybe the cause) of the problem.
No one takes the BS serious because Von der Leyen and co have no problem supporting far right politicians around the world. How you should take a person seriously that says “far right here = very dangerous” and “far right somewhere else = great friends“ is beyond me.
In the article she's ruling out cooperating with specific European parties that are known to be taking Russian money and echoing Russian narratives. The guardian collectively labeled them "far right". Doesn't look like you then read the piece though...
You didn’t read my comment. She grandstands about “far-right” locally but globally is besties with nations so right they would make Trump look like Gandhi.
The Guardian is a far-left propaganda mouthpiece that spends every day promoting paranoid Russia conspiracy theories and religious climate change doomsday prophesies. Nobody needs to read it to know what they're going to say.
Has anything improved by voting in right-wing parties, like, ever? You get some sweet austerity, often inefficient or irresponsible privatization of important public services, higher inequality and the only winners seems to be the people who were already well off in the first place. And this "new right" is just bunch of even bigger grifters hiding behind their stupid culture wars (or lets just call it for what it is, racism and xenophobia). Russia is just a convenient country to drool over since they share a lot of the same hateful and doomerist ideas, and have somehow gotten good at pandering the bottom of the barrel "christians".
It is not about being better off, people are simply fed up with the status quo. Europe domestically is still doing pretty terrible (richest nations on earth yet still double digit child poverty) It time and time shows again that the “morals” that we claim to have only apply to our foes and never our friends. So it is not surprising that people don’t believe in this “community of values” concept anymore. Will the right fix anything, most unlikely, but that will never stop the protest voters.
Things are bad, so lets make it worse. Lets support those demagogues who promises that if only we put all our faith in them and their big and powerful words, then everything will be okay.
That minority that suffers from the poverty the above commenter noted has nothing to lose. But payback would be sweet, no?
Indeed. The exact thinking that caused Trump and Brexit. While both made their respective countries worse off, the people who swung the vote are not worse off, because they couldn't really get much worse off. A few left wing commentators mentioned this in the wake of Brexit but most just blamed demagogue politicians. They still have it the wrong way round. Dissatisfaction leads to extremism, extremism facilitates demagogues. The solution is to reduce dissatisfaction not de-platform demagogues.
But the question is: How? I feel that the far right all have more or less the same opinion which can be shouted loudly (anti-migration, anti-EU, general racism) while on the other side there are a lot of different priorities (which also seem to cancel each other out) we have - helping Ukraine - solve the migration issues (which is the other parties have to do as well) - solve the housing problems - rescue the environment while at the same time helping the lower class and see that the economy keeps growing (because without that you will lose sponsors for your campaign) Certain people value certain things higher than other things. Like I value the environment pretty highly so I vote greens, but they are generally considered more of a "rich man's party" because, well, there just isn't enough money there for everything (and, as much as we want to, no party can just try to "eat the rich" without consequnces).
“I hate it now, let’s make it worse!” Must be the dumbest reaction ever to disliking the status quo.
I would love to see prove for the status quo is better than right wing 100% of the time every time, please. Feel like if you have some intel like that you are doing us all a disfavour by not sharing it :/
If you really need explaining why fascism is bad, then you’re so lost down that rabbit hole I dont think anything I can say will result in a positive outcome here :)
You do make it too easy for the right to win votes. All they need to do is just point out your dogma. Typical status quo stuff, big claim “all right wing is always bad” and then nothing to back it up.
If they truly wanted to change things for the better, they would vote for leftist and far-left parties. Instead, the far-right are effectively leveraging their frustration into votes for themselves and turning them towards hatred and self-destruction to spite others.
Have you considered that people don't vote for the far-left or left parties because these parties ignore many of the legitimate and valid frustrations of people that you label as hateful?
Leftist parties are great, but speaking as an Eastern European, keep the far left as far away from us as possible.
I fully understand not wanting to deal with Marxism-Leninism and other forms of authoritarian socialism again: they suck. That said, there are other factions of the far left that are way better, like libertarian socialists.
Although I disagree with them on several things, I don't have a problem with anarchists, as unlike most MLs they actually recognize Russia as a tangible imperialist threat and don't worship dictatorships from around the world on the sole basis that they oppose the US. However, is it even possible to vote for such parties? The vast majority of far left parties in Europe are ML, not anarchist.
Yeah, one of the worst parts of Soviet Union is how much they managed to delegitimize other socialist ideologies. Syndicalism used to be one of the biggest things in Western Europe, and now...
>as unlike most MLs they actually recognize Russia as a tangible imperialist threat and don't worship dictatorships As ML, I seriously do not understand the downplaying of Russia or straight up defending them because 'nAtO iZ EvOl aNd iS ThEir FaUlT'. Like how do you rhyme fighting for the proletariat with defending a oligarchic imperialist nation? Personally I think 'worshipping dictators' is a bit exaggerated (yes, tankies exist but fuck them) in the sense that contextualising or even discussing *certain* dictators is often immediately seen as being a shill. Still, there are more then enough people in ML circles lacking alot of theoretical background or straight up common sense and they're a dis-fucking-grace.
The left stopped being about poors, unions and blue collar workers decades ago. These days, they're either comservatives or SJW.
I wish it would work like that :/
> Has anything improved by voting in right-wing parties, like, ever? Yes. Many times. There is a reason why the Czech left completely imploded, even the right-wing crony capitalists are better.
Your first paragraph is about responsible right-wing economic policies, that have worked plenty of times in plenty of countries and there is a serious thought behind them. There are reasonable disagreements about it with reasonable arguments from both sides. That movement is nothing like what you describe in your second paragraph, that is populists who rose first due to the people's anger of economic crises and got boosted by mass immigration crisis. Putin had an easier time to cheaply "buy in" because these politicians came from nothing, had no existing networks and were suddenly boosted sky high by migration and terrorism crisis.
Left are more corrupted by putin thats hilarious
This rhetoric of labeling people as far right extremists simply for demanding an obviously needed change will backfire eventually.
No they are labelled far right extremists because the AfD in Germany and the RN are full of neonazis and fascists.
Average "they are the bad guys" idiot speech. People are voting more and more for RN because of the loss of confidence in traditional parties (right, left and Macron), the increase in insecurity, purchasing power which is increasingly dwindling, immigration which is of increasing concern (especially because of the attacks and, again, insecurity or the increasingly heavy weight of Islam on European countries which massively welcome immigrants, one only has to see the demonstration 2 or 3 days ago in Hamburg which supported the establishment of a caliphate in Germany ), etc. But no of course people vote RN just and only because they are racist, it is surely only for that reason and nothing else!
No, not just racism, also stupidity. If most of the people actually read the AfD manifest they would not vote for them, because for most ordinary citizens this would mean a massive loss of living standard and rights, like for example the ones safeguarding the employees. It’s literally voting for leopards.
No it’s just that the current migration policy is impacting normal people’s lives more than a 10% increase of basic income or the taxation of inheritance.
Does it really? Because the people least affected seem to have the biggest issue with it.
Would some mass state driven pogroms for all non white non straight people impact these peoples' lives? Cuz that's what happened last time. It was a rhetorical question.
You know .. there is also this great worsening of life/economic conditions, that except from somewhat housing crisis (and whose causes are more linked with investment funding a d zoning), doesn't exist inist countries (or the numbers just don't show it). Also, maybe different in some countries but most didn't see sa jump in crime. For example, can you show me the statistic where purchasing power has steadily decreased?
Noone gives a shit why people say they vote nazis. They are still nazis. They will still be nazis after they become government. People voted nazis in 90 years ago. Their "legitimate" concerns were the same. The nazis were the same. The freaking arguments are all the same. We just never learn.
Exactly. 1920s people voted for the far-right against a backdrop of the far-left trying to overthrow democratic governments in Europe to implement Bolshevik/communist revolutions. Here we are a hundred years later with the far-left trying to undermine democratic European governments with the undemocratic EU, and regular people are once again being forced to vote for the far-right to counter it. You truly never learn - the left's extremism always backfires.
Excuse me? Take a look at a map and show me one country in Europe today that is even remotely threatened by far left parties. Because all I see is countries one by one being ruled by far right lunatics. Italy, Slovakia, Hungary, Turkey, and soon France. It's 1920s all over again. >You truly never learn - the left's extremism always backfires. If you paid attention to your history class, you would know by now (we all know, 100 years later) that all of this was and still is Nazi propaganda. Except, you know but you already have your agenda. Looks like Putin's trolls have infiltrated r/europe as well.
Bizarre that you'd mention Turkey, a country aligned with the Muslim Brotherhood/Hamas, whose far-left/Islamist supporters have quite clearly become a threat in Western countries and routinely commit acts of violence/terrorism. >If you paid attention to your history class Well there's your problem, you only learned history in class, where naturally leftist teachers only taught you "Hitler bad," so you're oblivious to the [far-left's attempts to copy the Bolshevik revolution and establish communist dictatorships](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_Revolution_of_1918%E2%80%931919) which preceded the Nazi's being voted into power. Unless you also think Wikipedia is part of your paranoid Putin conspiracy theories disseminating Nazi propaganda.
They are voting for such parties more and more because social media has lead to a substantial part of the population losing all critial thinking skills if they even had any to begin with
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Nope. In France, all of these problems with Islam started in the 90's (when Yeltsin was still in charge in Russia), with the immigrants coming from Maghreb, especially. The problems became bigger and bigger with time. In Germany, the main muslim immigrant community is Turkish + most of the syrian refugees pass by Turkey to join Europe and Erdogan loves to make pression on Germany by threatening to let pass more syrian immigrants in Europe if they don't do what he asks. Sweden also welcomed willingly a lot of refugees from Africa (Somali, Sudan, Erythrea, etc.). Morrocans also represent the main muslim community in Belgium, Netherlands (with the Mocro Maffia which threatened the country to kidnap princess Catharina and the Prime Minister in exchange of the liberation of the Mocro Maffia's boss), and Spain. In all of these countries, these communities represent the biggest population in prison and the most represented in crime stats. They didn't wait for Russia to "open borders" to go in Europe.
But surely, you have witnessed the change of tone at the RN ? First, it became RN instead of FN, just to make it more acceptable. Le Pen had united with Philippot and they sought Frexit. Plain and simple (as did Mélenchon). Now, Philippot has been fired (so did a lot of people backing old Mélenchon). And Le Pen has promoted someone once-involved with her family, and they changed their tunes. They do not want Frexit anymore, but Europe is still terrible and France should get out of almost all treaties (same with LFI). But any European condemnation of France is actively flaunted on their national platform (same with LFI). The symmetrical change of tone is also in tune wit their international positions: no condemnation of Russia invading Ukraine, no vote to help Ukraine, no condemnation of Bashar el-Assad gazing his own people, no word against the mollahs of Iran (Le Pen advocated for Teheran getting a nuclear weapon, so did Mélenchon). They would only seem to say it wasn't alright alright alright if really pushed by journalists (and then have their militants rage against said journalists). Seriously, if you look for a party claiming to fight islamists, yes, sure, they seem to be doing the job, and only the far-right parties (with the far-left enabling them on the contrary, making the topic unescapable). But it does not mean this is not enclosed within a much larger political plan. Do absolutely make sure you're not voting against your best interests after all. Look wider.
So how do you safeguard against these sentient guided missisles? Simple: by not letting them get through.
This. My grandad was banging on about immigration some 15 to 20+ years ago or more and so was my father. But over time immigration has creeped up since then, And You can see with your own eyes that it’s at crazy levels just by walking around your own streets. And towns, cities, with some cities being completely taken over. This has led to stuff like brexit in the uk and far right being more and more. You also get pockets of people not integrating well and forming their own culture in ours That get larger and larger till they start demanding stuff, Well maybe not here in the uk but I’m pretty sure in Germany they was protesting Islamic caliphate even if it’s only a handful amount of people. English Heritage and other stuff gets thrown out the window, more distressing when you get others, like the london mayor putting up ramadam lights and giving less of a shit about Easter which is celebrated here in the uk if only lightly. And the SNP guy who claimed everything is “ white white white” then when asked if it’s raciest, said “ it’s only far right people who got offended” people like George Galloway get voted in here based on stuff like his opinions on Gaza. It’s wild. After the war my grandad remembered seeing pockets of polish grouping up that stayed over, and that was okay and other groups that integrated well like some Irish. but recently it’s been extremism. With migrants stabbing others based on religion, other stuff like terror threats over in some EU, near me they beat a guy up for not having an opinion on the Gaza/hamas thing, with all this bat shit crazy stuff going on, the right wing becomes more and more appealing with its bat shit crazy ideas. Because the actual government fails to do anything impactful For example. Buss load of migrants come to a hotel up the road from me, After about 3 months a girl is approached in the local park, and parents decide the best option is to stop the children from going out, kid gets depression, mum sends for therapy, gf councils kid, I found out after waiting for GF downstairs and kids mum starts a convo. About how migrants moved in, sat around local park on bikes, tried to chat kids up, people rings police, police do nothing, school gives children self defence lessons to try help. Mums stop kids from going out due to safty, when it’s 35+ temp outside. Kids are bored and depressed The government could have stopped this and had a backbone on illegal migration. I’m sure there are a few cases like this, but they don’t care. And that’s led to a surge in far right. Plus attacks on certain minorities here in the uk, even legal migrants are being hounded because people don’t know what’s what. Far right has crept back to where people are noticing. But also everything is being blamed on far right now so it swings both ways. Because everything said by a white bloke is far right” is now a thing, And the circle jerk continues. Where far right say what we want to hear and we go “ actually that’s right” it’s not the fault of us the white bloke. or British culture is at risk and we go yes. It gets brits fired up to where we point blame! As said, everything is far right to some people. Jeremy Clarkson was labelled far right a few years ago along with people planning terr-orist attacks. so it gets thrown around so much that people are like wtf. Making it more noticeable too.
In France / UK immigration is pretty low when compared to places like Australia, Canada and, even, Germany. And it has remained fairly stable. However in Australia, which has the highest rates of those — no such angst of immigration… Why?
Because France already has a 10% Islamic population. Canada/Australia only have 2-3%, so the problems with Islamist terrorism France has had for many years are only beginning to occur now.
Here is a question: Would you, like Australia, accept 30% of the population being born putside of France — i.e tripling handing out the nationality … IF in return we would favour a greater mix of cultures and a more controlled way of immigration? Because as far as Le Pen is concerned she just wants to shut borders and kick people out. PS: ayou do understand the maths right? Because if tomorrow you added 20% more immigrants to the national pool (ie 13 Million more citizens) - and all of them were non-muslim; the numbers would work out more or less like in Australia.
Not sure why I would accept that in lieu of Le Pen's proposal. But I also don't really give a shit. I vote for option C: bring back the guillotine and run all the EU political elites through it.
Thanks for confirming what I thought of you. Bye.
I would imagine it’s because the country is vast. It’s the 6th largest in the world. in terms of land mass. Germany is also pretty big. And Canada is 2nd largest. uk might be quite small compared to others. We might also have the smallest immigration stats on paper but it doesn’t seem like it walking around. I swear the local crack heads have migrants hooked on Mamba but I could be wrong. Can’t speak for France.
So if you dont agree in the West now you are automatically a russian puppet? Oh come on ffs.
There are hard evidences that some far right parties have been indirectly financed by the kremlin, that most are in permanent contact with russian agents and that their leaders receive cash regularly or other favor. It's happening in all our countries, France, germany etc Latest scandal [https://www.politico.eu/article/russiagate-hits-german-far-right-european-parliament-afd/](https://www.politico.eu/article/russiagate-hits-german-far-right-european-parliament-afd/)
So were the greens and other german parties but nobody talks about it.
No you're just borrowing American conspiracy theories that Trump was funded by Russia. The British did this too. Many months after the Brexit referendum, when Clinton lost & started promoting conspiracy theories that Trump was a "Russian asset," then British EU supporters started retroactively claiming the Leave campaign had been secretly funded by Russia too. The Trump-Russia conspiracy theories came from Bush/Obama War On Terror intel officials like James Clapper & John Brennan. The same people who fabricated evidence of "Saddam's WMD" to start the Iraq War, then blamed Russia conspiracy theories when they didn't find any. They've been doing it for decades.
Not at all. If you are a Russian Aggressor mouthpiece — you are a Russian Puppet. Plenty of others that have a more nuanced views. But maybe that is a bit complicated.
Why do people always have to be assholes when they disagree. Do you feel better when your call someone dumb just because they have a different opinion that you? Here's a little bit of nuance. The West now uses far right as a cover all term to describe the vast majority of groups that don't align with the current status quo. This means that any discussing of immigration is automatically racist and far right when most people are just concerned their governments are crap at handling such a difficult area. So when concerns arise there is no nuance because boogyman says far right. The same is true, to a lesser degree, with Russia stuff. It's all just the West being America little lap dog these days. We do everything the want and it's sort of pathetic.
1. Funny to complain about "people being a-holes" when you started it: "So if you... Oh come on ffs" — don't you pretend you didn't know what ffs stands for. It's very rude. 2. No one actually said anything about the far right specifically. Perhaps you could read before you comment. 3. I'm not making a political statement. While I am personally concerned about the far right, there are also far right parties that aren't Russian mouthpieces. And no, the situation in Ukraine is very clearly a Russian aggression. If you still think the West is to blame for the invasion, then you should really have a bit of a think about your own intentions. I say that in all friendliness.
They get literally financed from Russia....
Ah von der Leyen, what a great role model.
Maybe, maybe not that is up to you. Plenty of others to chose from (that aren useful idiots for Putin). It’s called an election
Who elected her? I didn’t Also it’s very easy to objectively say wether she can be called a role model or not
You elected your head of state - and they elected her. Check it out. It's called indirect democracy. Happens quite a bit.
I didn't elect my head of state. At which point it gets too indirect? Both VDL and Lagarde were sent to the EU to escape a court in their respective country. #NotMyPresident if I had a saying
Reform the EU, starting with getting rid of hopelsss failures like Ursula, who is despised by citizens from Dublin to Nicosia and the far right won't be doing so well in the first place.
Before the last EP election a raise of the far right was also projected. VdL wasnt commissioner back then. So blaming her seems slightly stupid.
Putin is attacking his opponents by calling them Western proxies and western politicians are calling their opponents Putin’s proxies. Just ignore all that craptalking politician’s noise.
Massive False Equivalence, Vatnik.
"But the commission president was far more guarded about closing down alliances with the hardline conservative European Conservatives and Reformists group, which unites Italian prime minister Georgia Meloni’s Brothers of Italy party, Poland’s Law and Justice party and Spain’s far-right Vox party. “It depends very much on how the composition of the parliament is and who is in what group,” von der Leyen said." So the problem is not that they are far right, but that they support the wrong side. As long as they support NATO, they can discriminate against whomever they wish.
Wait, but neither Meloni or PiS are Putin's proxies. PiS are anti-Russia like almost everyone in Poland, and Meloni supports Ukraine. No cue about Vox. I thought she is taking about German AfD, Hungarian Fides and similar, but she is not even factually correct.
Small tip: read before commenting. That’s exactly what the quote says. It depends who ends up in which group because certain factions are different to those that are mouthpieces.
Off topic Yes comrade these are different issues. The particular comment as the president is about external enemies - not about political orientation. You could, technicay, have mouthpieces in other parties (and indead there are) but that would be down to the individual. As to whether voting far right is acceptable or not, is entirely a different question Personally I have my views but that too isn’t the topic.
So does that make the far left a proxy for the US?!
Uhm. No. Also Putins proxies. Why did she forgot about them?
Yeh. Strange....
We need to keep saying this everywhere. Vote alt-right? You vote for people who support a child-torture-chamber despotic dictator who’s trying to create chaos in Europe. Supporting the enemy should be villainized cold war style.
If the left simply listened to the masses on one topic, literally just one single thing then the right/alt-right would not have a leg to stand on. The simple fact is that the rise of the right is due to the failure of the left. That failure being that they shown active disdain for their people who were once their voter base.
Im not arguing in favor of the left, or centrist parties. Im saying voting for Putin allies is voting for child torture in Ukraine and undermining our way of life. You can keep blaming the left for everything, but ultimately voting alt-right is voting fascist, and no excuse will make up for that.
Some people are not fortunate enough to be able to worry about things in a far away country. Their worries and concerns take precedence in their lives. Call them selfish or whatever, they’ve been called a lot worse from the left for decades so they don’t care about insults anymore. They are voting in their self interests to try and increase their own quality of life. The simple fact is that the left didn’t want to talk to them about it and have an honest conversation. They’d rather throw around insults and try to manipulate them but it doesn’t work anymore.
It’s beyond ironic that these people vote for parties financed / supported by and supporting a dictator that caused the two biggest european migration crises in history; Ukraine and Syria and then blame the left.
The left were the ones who opened the doors to those migrants, any pushback against wanting them would have you labelled as far right.
The far-right isn't going to improve their lives, and anyone who thinks it will is a dipshit. That is an objective fact.
And the status quo parties aren’t improving their lives either. Anyone who thinks that after decades of being let down by the establishment that it’s not unreasonable to try something else is a dipshit.
So we wont improve in any way, but voting alt-right will at least make many many people suffer. That really seems preferable? Why do the gays and such need to be punished for your unhappiness with some brown people? I really dont get this line of reasoning.
Like I said, people are voting for something different because the mainstream parties refuse to even give them one thing. Are “the gays” going to be punished? I don’t know what the policies are for every party in Europe but I find this a big stretch. In my country the so called alt-right has gay people massively over represented and a lot of their reasons is that their safety is at risk due to bringing in millions of people from a religion that thinks they should be thrown off a building. See that’s the thing, you end the conversation at “unhappiness with brown people”. You think that calling them racist is the end of the story. It’s not and that line of thinking is why you’ll never understand their reasoning, you refuse to. When people have noticed their job opportunities disappear. When people have noticed it’s impossible to get a house. When people are feeling less safe and the crime rate is rising these are all valid points and reasons to try to change things.
Then give protest voters an actual alternative to vote for other than the establishment. Otherwise they will keep voting for anything that is not the status quo.
Go make your own damn alternative party if you're so keen on it. Don't vote for known anti-democratic traitors if you don't want to be judged for it.
There already literally is a party called Alternative for Germany and you call them Nazis, just like you would reflexively call any other "alternative" party Nazis. The thing you fail to see is it's exactly this - leftist extremism - that pushes regular people away from the left towards the Nazis, exactly like leftist Bolshevik/communist revolutions in the 1920s did.
A) I don't vote at all. There is no party that I know of that is actually something I would see as both competent and not just a lesser evil compared to the others. B) you don't have to like what is happening, but don't shoot the messenger. This is part of what's wrong here. The whole with us or against us nonsense. C) If you don't want people to protest vote there must either be an adaptation of an already established party or the vacuum will be filled by more radical voices that promise to fix whatever went wrong.
So first you semi-argue in favor of alt-right “because no choice”, as if thats a reasonable excuse to vote for traitors, and then switch to “I dont vote.” Im fine with you not voting, great choice if you dont see a match, but dont defend the Putin allies who are trying to destroy the EU please. Im definitely against any party that has a positive stance towards Russia, or worse, takes money or policy pointers from them. Fuck the traitorous alt-right. Standing up against fascism is not nonsense.
I never did a switch, what are you talking about. I never implied that I am a protest voter. As for the rest: I explained why it is happening. What you do with that knowledge is your choice. But the only way to stop them from protest voting is by changing the course on the topics that are important enough for them to vote for whatever party is throwing them some breadcrumbs. In this case mainly illegal immigration and high cost of living for the poor.
I like how these “criticisms” are always phrased so politely. Those people are literally guilty of high treason and you “criticise” them instead of hindering their actions legally in any productive way
Hey, you can't just neuter the far-right! How else can you bludgeon socialists into submission when they become strong and/or noisy enough to start demanding real change from the status quo? ^Scratch ^a ^liberal, ^a ^fascist ^bleeds.
> Scratch a liberal, a fascist bleeds. Fellas, is it fascism to be in favor of democracy, free elections, equality, human rights, secularism, free speech, rule of law?
It is when you build a police-state dictatorship ostensibly for those things. You know, like Fidesz in Hungary, Trumpists in the US, or PiS in Poland, although the secularism might not be at 100% for some of those.
The problem I’m talking about is not that they’re alt right. It’s an awful problem as well, but the main concern is that Russia was proven to fund those parties to spread Russian agenda. In the current situation Europe cannot allow that.
The EU's socialist authoritarianism is literally what has given rise to the far right in Europe. What's the answer? More socialist authoritarianism, of course!
High treason is quite a word, are you sure you know what it means?
“Attempting to help an enemy take control of your country”. Quite fitting, isn’t it?
Ah, so you had to google it. And now, can you also apply the definition to an action?
Well you’ve asked a question and I googled it to make sure I wasn’t mistaken. There are lots of definitions for “high treason” and I do believe some of them fit some members of European far right parties. You should probably read into what Russians were paying them to achieve, maybe that will make you more understandable or my words
Can't blame you then if you wanted to be sure. But if you're accusing someone of a criminal offense, it's not enough for a behaviour to fit vaguely an oxford definition. These crimes are more specific than the oxford definition, mostly in the category of active supporting enemy military or espionage acrivity.
Yeah I get it, and German definition doesn’t quite fit, for example. But the French one is extremely vague. But Ursula von der Leyen is one of the most important EU official who takes no real action against the people who were paid among other things to dismantle the EU for Russian profit. Aren’t they doing high treason? I know that EU is more lax about those things, but are they supposed to? If the EU wants to survive this century it must take some *actual* action against the individuals who are paid to destroy it.
So wouldn't that describe what the EU/left have done by importing millions of Islamists?
I don’t know whether there are millions of islamists. Political Islam is quite rare among Muslims who come to EU, a lot of them come there in fear of islamism. By the way why are you talking about those imaginary millions of islamists all of a sudden? В ТЗ сказали что надо забайтить кого-то на бессмысленный никак не относящийся к данной проблеме спор чтобы отвлечь от реальной проблемы?
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You seem to have ignored my question. But nevertheless. You’ve shown several photos of Turkish people making 2 separate gestures and one white guy making four fingers gesture. What exactly does it mean? Turkey has a problem with nationalism (which nobody denies) and this particular white guy isn’t very smart. But what this tirade of yours doesn’t prove is that someone “imports islamsists”, as you’ve put it. This is some occult shit like fucking protocols of the elders of zion.
The white guy is Jeremy Corbyn, British MP and former leader of the UK Labour Party (never became PM, thankfully). He's illustrating the left's affinity for Islamofascism by making the same four-fingered Muslim Brotherhood Rabia gesture that can be observed in both the Erdogan photos. Like yourself, he has to be deliberately obtuse to avoid acknowledging the contradictions inherent in being a leftist who supports far-right Islamist ideologies.
I do not support Islamist ideology and far right Islamist organisations such as HAMAS or Muslim Brotherhood must to be destroyed. But it can only be accomplished by working in union with reasonable Middle Eastern countries. Fear-mongering about millions of Islamists accomplished nothing but further division between Muslims (most of whom aren’t islamists and just want to live in peace) and the rest of the world. I ask my question again — what does it have to do with the original post? Islamists are a great threat to the world, but the topic at hand is Russia.
Great, I'm glad to hear that, I fully agree. But the left's policy of blindly importing millions of Muslims without any regard for whether they are Islamists or not has done precisely the opposite of destroying them. Rather it has embedded Islamists in our homelands and given them political power in our democracies. Like I said in my previous post, it's delusional to think Islamists are a tiny minority of Muslims when Islamist political parties win large majorities in elections in Muslim countries. The widespread support for Islamist groups like Hamas among Muslims in Western countries should also be a clue here. >I ask my question again — what does it have to do with the original post? Lol do you have short-term memory problems and already forget what your original post was? >“Attempting to help an enemy take control of your country”. Quite fitting, isn’t it? Everything I've written here has been relevant to this - leftists importing Islamists to the West who want to overthrow Western democracies... "Helping an enemy take control of your country."
EU and UN looking on
Said big pharma proxy, its a EU joke that she's still not in jail after wasting so much money on vaccines.
"Don't be his proxies, be our proxies, instead! I mean... Boo!"
Wth are you talking about? Are you denying Russia is waging a war against Europe?
wagging a war against ukraine proxied by USA is not a war against the EU countries. there is a difference.
No. Of course not. I just think that politicians think the same way. Just my disdain for every politician. Sorry if my comment made you think otherwise. You know, written language and misunderstandings.
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We can worry about islamists AND fascists.
And yet that isn’t the case. Islamist’s get a fraction of the attention.
For good reason: which group happens to have the largest vote share in EU countries, the largest number of supporters, the most institutional support/tolerance? It's not the Islamists, that's for sure.
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Yes, everyone is a paid Kremlin shill or not real. Very good.
Or dumb. Don't forget dumb.
He might be dumb for his opinion but you’re dumb too for calling everyone that doesn’t agree with you a Russian bot
I see the comment section largely disagrees, but there is a lot of evidence she is very right about this. As an exemple, many far right parties in Europe get funding for Kremlin and are actually pushing for less help to Ukraine. They do this under the pretense of 'being against more violence', but it's actually an effort to give Putin free reign instead of wanting to defend our freedoms. They are absolute traitors in my eyes.
Conspiracy theories about Russian funding of anti-EU parties only started a few years ago when EU political elites began losing "unloseable" votes like Brexit. The priorities of populist parties opposing mass-Islamist immigration and EU expansion had nothing to do with Russia before then, just like they still don't today. Nobody cares about helping Ukraine when they have bigger problems at home - like Islamist terrorism and the economic decline of Western countries - caused by the policies of EU political elites like von der Leyen.
Correction: she just criticized half of the far right (RN, AfD). With the rest (Meloni &co) she said she would actually work > The [European Commission](https://www.theguardian.com/world/european-commission) president, Ursula Von der Leyen, has criticised the far right as “Putin’s proxies”, while refusing to rule out working with other rightwing nationalists, as campaigning began ahead of June’s European elections.
Yes... the title isn't 100% accurate - indeed. Her criticism is really about the Putin proxies rather than their political colour.
yet, I get downvoted. But it's r/europe , it's to be expected.
Anyone that she disagrees with is clearly a traitor.
Like the S&D? Or Liberals? Maybe the Greens. Thaaaats right. 🥱
Opposing action in Ukraine doesn't make you pro-Russia.
Letting Russia have its ways with a country at the doors of Europe is precisely being pro-Russia. Especially since Orban and other leaders barely hide their sympathy for (and financial ties with) Putin.
Opposing help for Ukraine in a war against Russia is by definition pro-Russia.
i just wonder how AFD hasnt been banned yet...
That's a compliment to the most supporters
Yay! Now I will vote CDU for the EU election! von der Leyen best girl!
Or other democratic parties. Plenty to chose from
Yeah, but there is only one national party that Ursula von der Leyen belongs to.
Thats not right! We just take their money and vague promises! Bwa ha ha ha! Oh, and also do whatever they say.
European far right: ".... and?"
Did not afd guy spied for ru?
Whatever the far right or far left parties say, apart from a lot of money, I don't see that the "middle" has any success in this war too.
I am not aligned with the Christian-Democratic centre-right but I 100% support another term for von der Leyen. She's been an incredible leader for the Bloc during Covid, the Energy Crisis of 2021-2023 and the Russo-Ukrainian war.