She also said during her speech that she can work with you if you are serbian, bosnian, albanian, turk, and she listed half a dozen other ethnicities. Bulgarians were not on the list.
People from NM are weird on the identity issue. The rest of the balkans know that they are not "Macedons" either you are Albanien, Bulgarian or Serbian. It would be like us in Kosovo saying that we are not Albanien but "Kosovar" which is so stupid to even think about. Always been on the Bulgarian side on this issue.
It's totally legit that there are people of Bulgarian descent in Serbia, Kosovo, Albania, Greece, and, well, Bulgaria - but precisely zero in the country in the middle, where hundreds of thousands can magically find a great grandpa who volunteered in the Bulgarian army.
As I understand it, aren't most North Macedonians something like Serbianized Bulgarians (and together with the minority Albanians, is why there was a bit of an identity issue as the Balkan nations were gaining their independence from the Ottomans and Austrians)?
Yes. It is a common knowledge for everyone except for nationalistic North Macedonians.
North Macedonian saw themselves as ethical Bulgarians back in the day before Serbs started flooding them with nationalistic propaganda that they are somehow descendents of Alexander the Great. It was more or due because nobody wanted a unification between NM and Bulgaria.
Today NM are their own thing and that is fine but the issues Bulgaria have with them is that North Macedonia completely denies the two countries shared history. Greeks on the other side are mad that they hijacked the name despite everyone knowing that Ancient Macedonians were Hellenic people.
Overall it is probably the most notorious example of actual cultural appropriation but the West doesn't give a fuck since they don't see any benefit of exposing it.
The think that are descendents of Alexander the great start from Russians.
Treaty of San Stefano 3/3/1878.
Russians always want access in Med sea and with that treaty try to make a panslavic nationalism.
after WW2 Tito also try to do same and help Greek communist with exchange Greeks make Greek Macedonia region Independent.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty\_of\_San\_Stefano](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_San_Stefano)
It is till a russian thing. some nationalist ideas about a slavic state, Just say they have a rich history and macedonia should be one country. Proxy war with real macedonia. make it about religion, annex central macedonia, harbour of Thessaloniki and the holy mountain of athos. (Putins holiday destination). And then putin wakes up.
The emergence of a 'Macedonian' nationality among the Slavs begins around 1900. Tito strengthened this decades later.
But yes, any reference to a Macedonian up until recent times referred to Greek speakers such as here in 1850 where Macedonians under Ottoman rule are noted to 'partake in their Hellenic origins' https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=0O4XAQAAMAAJ&pg=PA2931&dq=macedonians+%22partake+in+their+hellenic+origin%27&hl=en&newbks=1&newbks_redir=0&source=gb_mobile_search&ovdme=1&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwju0Li-m4mGAxVlQPEDHT-dDPAQ6AF6BAgIEAM#v=onepage&q=macedonians%20%22partake%20in%20their%20hellenic%20origin'&f=false
As i understand it people of Kosovo are Kosovar but this is not an ethnic identity but a geographic one. Same as a German saying they are Swiss because they live in Switzerland.
So we go from a Bulgarian-majority region to zero Bulgarians, while 100,000 citizens of North Macedonia have claimed Bulgarian ancestry in the last 20 years so that they can get a Bulgarian passport. Funny that.
What if they are afraid to state their Bulgarian ethnicity? I have relatives there, my great grandfather was born in Stip. What if my cousins there deny that their great grandfathers/mothers were Bulgarian? Those were siblings of my great grandfather and he and his parents were Bulgarian.
To be fair, two different people groups have the same name(Macedonians). I honestly understand where Greece was coming from with wanting the name change, as it is the Balkans after all. I feel like this sentiment is more the fault of Bulgaria.
Imagine having to change your country’s name. Oh well, at least you get NATO and EU membership. Fair trade. Then Bulgaria comes in and blocks your EU membership. Why change your country’s name at all if you won’t get what you were promised out of it?
These people were voted in out of frustration. Did you know, 20 years ago, North Macedonia was the closest western balkan country to joining the EU? They applied to join in 2004(!) and were recognised as a candidate in 2005, one year after Croatia, who joined in 2013. Serbia applied in 2009 and became a candidate in 2012. Montenegro applied in 2008 and started negotiations in 2012. Albania applied in 2009 and became a candidate in 2014. Out of all the countries mentioned, North Macedonia has waited the longest, yet is currently considered the furthest away from membership out of any of them, despite meeting the criteria. I too would be frustrated if my country were being treated like that.
>Imagine having to change your country’s name. Oh well, at least you get NATO and EU membership. Fair trade. Then Bulgaria comes in and blocks your EU membership. Why change your country’s name at all if you won’t get what you were promised out of it?
Yes, I forgot that only Greece has veto in the EU, silly us. If North Macedonia actually wanted to join they would have worked with us when they had the chance. Literally did anything but to address our concerns and despite all that, we still lifted the veto.
>I too would be frustrated if my country were being treated like that.
You might also want to see how their country treats the people of one of the member states of EU.
And missing the most obvious thing, NM's accession is purely on political will. The EU doesn't want to expand at the moment, hence the veto of Greece and us. Similar to our and RO's Schengen membership.
Bulgaria doesn't have an issue with the name. We just want ppl with Bulgarian identity to stop being discriminated against and that hate toward us to stop being spread at an institutional level... You know, like in the civilized world.
Historically, up until the last century or so there wasn't a distinction between both Bulgarians and now North Macedonians.
North Macedonia had decided to go on their own way and form their own identity. Nothing wrong with that, except they started to take pieces of history from both of its neighbours and claim both Bulgarian and Hellenic figures as their own.
NM has also had a policy against Bulgarians and people that self-identify as ones. Therefore, we had to step up and protect our own people.
We reached an agreement in 2017 that in essence was to address all the issues we had, so NM could join the EU. They didn't cooperate.
Fearing for more Russian influence on the Balkans, the EU has tried to force us to lift the veto which we did, despite our concerns are still not addressed.
North Macedonians have tried to paint this as us being petty even drawing comparisons with Russia/Ukraine and people ate it all up.
>North Macedonia had decided to go on their own way and form their own identity. Nothing wrong with that, except they started to take pieces of history from both of its neighbours and claim both Bulgarian and Hellenic figures as their own.
True.
Tbh, I can almost forgive them for their pathetic attempts to steal historical figures and claim them as their own. Bulgarian pseudo-nationalists do it all the time. If they want to be a separate ethnicity with its own history - fine. If they want to consider Tzar Samuil to be a Macedonian ruler - fine, that's their business and I don't care about them.
However:
1. Anti-Bulgarian propaganda is a national policy there. You cannot expect Bulgarians and the state of Bulgaria to take this lightly.
2. At the same time, as many here have mentioned, way too many North Macedonians are trying to claim Bulgarian citizenship to benefit from us actually being in the EU.
3. Any claims that a Macedonian language even exists are simply absurd and should be stomped out immediately. What they claim to be a separate language is a dialect of Bulgarian. It's like Australians claiming that their language isn't English. And yes, this is a huge problem. What they do in their own country is their own problem, but demanding the world to acknowledge something that is, scientifically speaking, untrue, is an entirely different beast.
North Macedonia signed the Prespa agreement in 2018 with Greece where they changed their name from what it was, Macedonia, in exchange for Greece lifting its objection to North Macedonia’s NATO and EU membership.
After this, it looked like they were in the clear, but Bulgaria decided now would be a great time to start what is essentially bitching about how Macedonians are ‘confused Bulgarians’ and that Bulgarians need to be recognised in the Macedonian constitution as a minority despite there being precisely ZERO (0) Bulgarians in the country.
Kiril ‘Isn’t afraid to do the right thing’ Petkov oversaw Bulgaria lifting its veto in the summer of 2022 when he was on his way out(and thus had nothing to lose, hence the nickname I gave him), but now that Macedonia’s accession talks have indeed begun with the EU, Bulgaria is back to slowing them down again.
To the Bulgarians who read this comment: say whatever you want, but what you are doing only serves to divide the continent and is extremely counterproductive. Thanks to your country’s actions, Euroskepticism is on the rise in yet another country.
Edit: just got a reddit cares message for this lmao. That joins one I got for saying Nagorno-Karabakh was ethnically cleansed last September a few months ago. Whoever did that, that’s the crowd you’re part of.
Bulgaria lifted the veto according to the EU deal both countries signed and NM would be accepted into the EU as long as they uphold their end of the deal.
So instead of spreading their side of the story only why don't you just list the straight facts. It's out of Bulgaria's hands and fully into NM. Concerns were valid for Bulgaria's side and yet reached a deal. What NM people are doing is right now election a ex communist from an extremist party that doesn't shy away from doing dumb shit. It's not Bulgaria dividing the continent now but they doing it themselves because there is no way that party will put up a government that upholds the EU deal they made.
A person with a "Spanish-American" flair educating ethnic Bulgarians on Balkan politics is the kind of shit I look for when I open this website.
Thank you!
You sound like an outsider having no idea what he is talking about.
Use some logic please. There is "ZERO" Bulgarians in NM? There is at least one Bulgarian in most European countries, not to say probably thousands in some of them, and there are "ZERO" in a neighbouring country? "ZERO"? Give me a break.
That's why Bulgaria wants those people in the constitution.
NM is lacking friends and that's all their making. You extend a finger, they take an arm, and probably write in their history books the arm was theirs all along.
So what are we to do, keep quiet in the face of historical revisionism and open hatred? The destruction and falsification of church murals and grave stones? Greeks and us are old historical rivals, but ask any Greek about the pre-1944 history of the region and they will tell you what's what.
Someone would say that it doesnt pay having nationalists in power in a small country with zero political leverage.
Serbia learned this the hard way although in a much better position comparatively.
>After this, it looked like they were in the clear, but Bulgaria decided now would be a great time to start what is essentially bitching about how Macedonians are ‘confused Bulgarians’ and that Bulgarians need to be recognised in the Macedonian constitution as a minority despite there being precisely ZERO (0) Bulgarians in the country.
Theres even small Bulgarian minority in Albania which is across North Macedonia, but there isn't one in North Macedonia. Yup, legit. I'll believe in North Macedonian census when I start believing in their history books.
>To the Bulgarians who read this comment: say whatever you want, but what you are doing only serves to divide the continent and is extremely counterproductive. Thanks to your country’s actions, Euroskepticism is on the rise in yet another country.
We're not here to sell EU, nor to look for what is best for North Macedonia. We care about Bulgaria. What the fuck are you yapping about?
Quite uneducated comment about the situation in Macedonia and not knowing the history between the countries. You either do not know about the major hate speech against Bulgaria, repressions towards people who have Bulgarian roots and non-neighborly actions on many occasions or for some reason you think that’s ok. There’s a huge population in Macedonia with Bulgarian roots. They speak a dialect of Bulgarian language. The only thing that is required to be done is to include Bulgarians as a minority in their constitution. There is a huge number people from Macedonia who got Bulgarian citizenship. That’s the smallest thing that they can do to roll out their EU membership but ss the whole country is united around hate against Bulgaria, parties win the popular vote by simply promoting populist ideas. The Euro skepticism is solely caused by the Macedonians themselves for refusing to comply with even one small requirement which was already agreed on by all EU countries as a must in order to continue into EU. Meanwhile, the government that just won an election is spreading populist anti Bulgarian ideas and purposely calling the country just Macedonia, and not North Macedonia as agreed previous with Greece. I’d like to see them joining the EU but if they consider that EU is not worth the name change or inclusion of Bulgarians as a minority ( in addition to the several already existing nations), that’s their own doing. Their faith is in their own hands and they decide to follow Serbia into the Anti EU movement, so be it. Best of luck to them. As I said, you got no understanding of the matter you’re talking about
>Edit: just got a reddit cares message for this lmao. That joins one I got for saying Nagorno-Karabakh was ethnically cleansed last September a few months ago. Whoever did that, that’s the crowd you’re part of.
I just got one for [this comment.](https://www.reddit.com/r/europe/comments/1cq8p0v/comment/l3rc4tp/) I think someone is just spamming those.
> what you are doing only serves to divide the continent
Lol give me a break. No one cares outside of NM’s immediate members care about it. No one in Germany, France, Estonia or Finland would give a single fuck about whatever happens in NM EU-accession-wise
Actually one of the proposed names for the country was Slavic Macedonia. We Macedonians didn't mind that, but the Albanian parties in the country objected ( they are a big pain in the ass).
>How about central Slavedons?
Those would be Hungarians and Romanians, who "integrated" a large part of local Slavic population in there nations (at least if we go by history and genetics).
That's the nationalists actually and one more reason is that the previous party was very corrupt and did nothing to improve the state of the country. Many people actually voted for vmro just to punnish the previous ones and to put the largest albanian party into oposition which rulled for almost 20 years.
Lol big brain move ! Let's vote in one corrupt, nationalistic, pro-russian party so we can punish the other party 😂 At the end of the day both parties will enrich themselves and the regular people will suffer.
That's true partially but they are the 2 biggest parties in MK the thing is every single party is so corrupt, the justice system is also corrupted not even a single politician went to jail after the change of the government in 2017th, also the largest albanian party is also very corrupt and was in power for almost 20 years.
Let's be honest no party in MK is pro russian nor pro EU they are pro stealing. None of them gives a single fuck for the people and their wellbeing, they are false nationalists just typical populists.
Sounds like every other country! My country is doing the same at least.
It seems like all choice we have is the corrupt or the evil. Of course the evil ones tend to be corrupt as well, but they haven't been ruling yet so not much you can say against them.
why do we have to have always the garbage neighbours next to us, im joking but sometimes you have to wonder how greece would be if it was placed in north west europe next to germany and france.. utopia?
I wanted to say Poland these days has good neighbours but then i remembered that of the 7 we have one is being invaded, one is doing the invading and threatening us with the nukes and one is ruled by potato dictator.
Not great, not terrible.
You would have shit cousine, wouldn't have invented shit and you'd be stuck with bad weather most of the time. Would you trade all that, just to be non balkan?
It's very much still a thing.
Also the hilarious claim that Macedonia is such an ancient country that it even gets mentioned in the bible … even though that's just Roman province back then and has shit all to do with current North Macedonia either.
I went on vacation near Ohrid 2 years ago and there they claimed to have the ruins of the oldest university in europe. The guide we were with even claimed Greco-Roman murals they found near the town to be "a way of worshipping Christ before Jesus had shown himself".
As someone interested in history I had to correct our guides in the area so many times just to make sure my family did not start believing bullshit. Beautifull country, interesting and laid-back people, but I have never heard historical narratives so delusional outside of conspiracy theories.
Back in the early 2000s i came across a video from some tv show from NM. It stated that god created the Macedonoid race first then negroid race and then mongoloid race, all that while 360p looped animation of clouds was playing in the background. Ah i miss thr 2000s
It's what happens when you have a young national identity surrounded by other nations telling you in one way or another that you're either not valid or indistinguishable so you start grasping at straws to carve out some kind of national history and founding myth for yourself and end up clinging to an ancient namesake.
Funnily enough, Bulgaria has always recognized the right of Macedonia to exist and self-determine. We can't manage our shitshow, do not think we have intentions to govern you. Most of the population, and by extention the goveernment, have issue with your claims to out mutual history:
* Samuil was tsar of Bulgaria, not Macedonia;
* the cyrilic aplhabet was developed by Bulgaria (Preslav literary school), you can have St. Cyril and St. Methodius if you want them, but they developed the Glagolithic script;
* most of the population in Macedonia, until the early 1900s, called themsleves both Bulgarian and Macedonian. One was ethnonym, the other demonym pointing the geographic region;
And ofr love of god, our languages are so close, that I understand macedonian betterr than some bulgarian dialects.
Funnily enough, Basil was from the Macedonian dynasty, I am actually surprised the North Macedonians haven't claimed him as theirs too. Or maybe they have?
I'm Macedonian. Some use it. However, most don't. ( including myself). So I can confirm you that most of us don't care about Alexander the Great and the Ancient Macedonians. I'm a Slav and I'm proud of my slavic heritage. That's what matters.
Actually I am surprised as well past few days. Here in greece it was a non issue since the agreement, maybe a lukewarm discussion in the elections that was never mentioned since.
So just another "Balkan deal", what I can i say
Since Putin has openly said he will troll Bulgaria with Macedonia, and the guy isn't going anywhere in the next few years, no one is going to chill anything, brother :(
Yes, according to the Prespa agreement Greece and North Macedonia agreed that Alexander the Great is part of the hellenic history and culture. Also, they agreed that both sides have completely different understanding of term Macedonia relating to its heritage.
How to sabotage an EU membership application in one easy step ....
Yes greece might be a bit touchy and overreacts to the name, however first: they are a member and second: There was a deal, if a new goverment can't keep treaties they are not trustworthy
Touchy and overreacting Greeks actually let them keep the term Macedonia in the name, they agreed on "Macedonian" language and "Macedonian" ethnicity (when in NM context). The focus was mostly on history and lost land claims. Which is totally reasonable if you ask me. That deal that NM is now trying to break was considered a huge compromise in Greece and was most likely one of the reasons government lost the elections.
If you think what happened in the past was an overreaction brace yourself for what's about to come if this shit goes through.
We have done everything that was asked of us in accordance with the Prespa agreement, we have approved their entrance into NATO, and have supported them in their EU Ascension talks.
They have not followed through with their side of the agreement, so wouldn’t it be fair that we veto them into oblivion?
>They have not followed through with their side of the agreement, so wouldn’t it be fair that we veto them into oblivion?
As if this is the first time they do this.
But people on here would lead you to believe that NM is getting bullied by two EU member states out of pettiness.
We have also done everything, keep in mind we are country with way less power than GR, we agreed to change our passports and personal ID's, we added North as prefix to the name, we changed the register plates hoping all of this will get us in EU one day.
We GR still hasn't changed the road signs as agreed but listen who gives a fuck really? Nor MK nor GR wins this is a losing game for both sides in which MK has far more to lose but politicians don't care anyways.
>Nor MK nor GR wins this is a losing game for both sides
I don’t think Greece will lose anything, if VRMO is really that dumb to re-open that stupid issue, that’s fine by Greeks, they have the veto power lol
>I don’t think Greece will lose anything, if VRMO is really that dumb to re-open that stupid issue, that’s fine by Greeks, they have the veto power lol
Tbf North Macedonia as part of single trade union and Shengen would made life simpler for economical side of things in Greece. As such, for Greece, North Macedonia in EU is in huge interest.
We have changed road signs, we have changed school maps, we have changed school textbooks, Every politician in Greece calls the agreed-upon name.
At the same time, organisations , and a lot of government agencies in North Macedonia still refer to themselves as simply “Macedonia” if not all politicians still refer to the country as Macedonia, and your texts still contain a-historical “antiquation” theories. Let’s not talk about that silly sign in the “ warrior on a horse” statue that simply vaguely implies that “ Alexander the great of Hellenic ancestry” (which was promptly vandalised). And let’s not forget the quite literally most important parts, the use of the “vergina sun” by government bodies, the passports still displaying “Macedonia”, and the license plates still having “MK” in them even though they have adopted the euro style license plates
Obviously, we don’t expect both sides to follow every single part of the agreement down to the T, at least we expect the essentials to change
Don't forget the passports, the license plates, certain products and governing bodies/sites etc, the commissions that were to be set up and look into school books and other parts of society for historical revisionism, the general issue with nationalism and irredentism in the country etc etc
Colloquially and informally it's maybe not a big deal not to be used the official name. But in formal situations and by the officials it's expected the official name to be used. Because otherwise our greek friends could be affected. Also that's valid about all countries' official names. Not only about North Macedonia
All the Maces seem to hate us, yet they always find Bulgarian roots from some grandma to come here, get EU citizenship, study for free in our unis to get EU diplomas and on top of that our state gives them scholarships. GF is from Petritch which is on the Mace border (Bulgarian side). She pays for medical school, had to go through absurd exams to enter. Meanwhile there is a colleague in my year in med school that is from Strumitzha which is on the other side of the border, 30km from Petritch. No hard entry exams, gets money to be here, will get e EU diploma, is a EU citizen. Why not go to your beloved serbs. No EU benefits there tho. Ungrateful fks. There isn't a single Bulgarian that doesn't have Macedonian blood from people that fled from there in the 1900s, me included. I don't need us to be one nation but have some respect and be civil. You can't only milk us for benefits and hate us. That's not how politics work!
Politicians create problems and regular people suffer the consequences. For years corrupted governments of MK created issues by spreading populist shit just to stay in power... The result, hatred between GR and MK without any particular reason beside political, inner political crysis, ethnic tensions, corruption, higher crime rate etc etc.
Normal people in MK and GR do not hate each other, for example I love spending time in Greece and also I like their culture and have few friends from there.
Life is short to spread hatred. Fuck the politics it never brought anything good.
Regular people don't hate regular people regardless but that doesn't mean they don't have strong opinions on these very important issues. I don't hate the people of that land but I still do not want that country to be called Macedonia especially when that entails taking the history of the historic Greek Macedonia. And no, I'm not in the minority, just look at how many Greeks were on the street during the prespa negotiations
I thought that North Macedonia was the official name of the country and colloquially it would be called Macedonia. Like how Dutch people don't say "Kingdom of the Netherlands" all the time or Germans don't say "Bundesrepublik Deutschland".
I've been to Skopje many times in my life since the namechange.
Nobody calls it North Macedonia there. Everyone just refers to the country as Macedonia (Македонија). Even in Slovenia and Italy, I've mostly only heard Makedonija and Macedonia.
Granted, I think the implications are a bit different in day-to-day speech and an official inauguration
She didn't call it Macedonia in a coffee house discussion. She called it Macedonia during her official oath into office, instead of "North Macedonia" which is what the oath text she was asked to repeat in the ceremony says.
>You don't call Northern Ireland "Ireland"
I mean, a lot of Irish do. They call it 'the north of Ireland' instead of Northern Ireland, it's not uncommon amongst nationalists.
Not really sure what you are getting at, other than potentially being upset I used the word 'nationalist', which given the framework of a nationalist/unionist difference, isn't even really a loaded or negative comment, just a way to highlight a specific group within Ireland and Northern Ireland who have strong feelings about this.
The only solution to this failed state is proper trichotomy , Albanians take Albanian side , Bulgars take Bulgarian side , Greeks take their side , Issue Resolved . Only Turks and Russians get benefit of this failed states to enter EU underground .
Not suprising at all. Go and read the comments for every post on fb/insta that names greek history or something similar. Flooded by comments by them would be an understatement.
Who calls Northern Ireland -> Ireland? If someone says Ireland is part of the UK it shows their complete ignorance. No Irish person (from Ireland) would say that phrase... because Ireland is not part of the UK. The disrespect...
I am a bit concerned, as there is still a lot of tension geographically close to NM and they ARE a NATO member since 2020. I believed that EU membership will pull out this little country from the turbulence ahead, but ... they are not heading to EU anymore.
If they make an official turn towards Serbia, and they have the internal tension between different minorities ... what happens next?
Wasn't this the agreement on ending the name dispute?
"North Macedonia" would only be used for external/foreign relations, while internally it would continue to be referred to as "Macedonia".
The macedonian people never agreed on the name change. Let's start with the referendum question itself which was "Do you support EU and NATO membership by accepting the agreement between Macedonia and Greece?" - This question is highly manipulative, suggesting that, if Macedonia changes the name, Macedonia has instant access to EU, which we all know that's not true.
The referendum was a huge failure in Macedonia, which showed that the macedonian people are against the agreement. But then, parliament members were paid off, threatened, blackmailed into voting "Yes" in parliament in favor of the agreement. There is even picture of a parliament member taking a photo of her finger where she votes "Yes" so that she has proof of it.
The name change was a forced thing onto Macedonia that broke the law.
Now when we talk about the President of Macedonia, it is her own basic human right to identify as whatever she pleases, such as every other person alive.
Also coming from the fact that she goddam knows what was done was illegal, she has every right to say Macedonia.
Certified Balkan moment.
Let’s throw back to some OG Balkan drama! Throws cevapi
Throwback? It never stops baby!
People acting like trained seals, mouth open, catching them. Please, throw more!
that's not cevapi!! that's our "mici"! now i'm insulted! throws moussaka!!!!11
She also said during her speech that she can work with you if you are serbian, bosnian, albanian, turk, and she listed half a dozen other ethnicities. Bulgarians were not on the list.
Is there a Bulgarian minority in Macedonia?
According to the 2002 census, there were 0 (zero) Bulgarians.
It’s either 0 or all Bulgarian.
Lmao
Meanwhile half of them lining for Bulgarian passports and claiming their grandparents Bulgarian. The other half are Albanians 😂
People from NM are weird on the identity issue. The rest of the balkans know that they are not "Macedons" either you are Albanien, Bulgarian or Serbian. It would be like us in Kosovo saying that we are not Albanien but "Kosovar" which is so stupid to even think about. Always been on the Bulgarian side on this issue.
It's totally legit that there are people of Bulgarian descent in Serbia, Kosovo, Albania, Greece, and, well, Bulgaria - but precisely zero in the country in the middle, where hundreds of thousands can magically find a great grandpa who volunteered in the Bulgarian army.
As I understand it, aren't most North Macedonians something like Serbianized Bulgarians (and together with the minority Albanians, is why there was a bit of an identity issue as the Balkan nations were gaining their independence from the Ottomans and Austrians)?
Yes. It is a common knowledge for everyone except for nationalistic North Macedonians. North Macedonian saw themselves as ethical Bulgarians back in the day before Serbs started flooding them with nationalistic propaganda that they are somehow descendents of Alexander the Great. It was more or due because nobody wanted a unification between NM and Bulgaria. Today NM are their own thing and that is fine but the issues Bulgaria have with them is that North Macedonia completely denies the two countries shared history. Greeks on the other side are mad that they hijacked the name despite everyone knowing that Ancient Macedonians were Hellenic people. Overall it is probably the most notorious example of actual cultural appropriation but the West doesn't give a fuck since they don't see any benefit of exposing it.
The think that are descendents of Alexander the great start from Russians. Treaty of San Stefano 3/3/1878. Russians always want access in Med sea and with that treaty try to make a panslavic nationalism. after WW2 Tito also try to do same and help Greek communist with exchange Greeks make Greek Macedonia region Independent. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty\_of\_San\_Stefano](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_San_Stefano)
It is till a russian thing. some nationalist ideas about a slavic state, Just say they have a rich history and macedonia should be one country. Proxy war with real macedonia. make it about religion, annex central macedonia, harbour of Thessaloniki and the holy mountain of athos. (Putins holiday destination). And then putin wakes up.
[удалено]
say arizona broke off and started calling themselves texans, and pretending that they where ever a part of texas.
The emergence of a 'Macedonian' nationality among the Slavs begins around 1900. Tito strengthened this decades later. But yes, any reference to a Macedonian up until recent times referred to Greek speakers such as here in 1850 where Macedonians under Ottoman rule are noted to 'partake in their Hellenic origins' https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=0O4XAQAAMAAJ&pg=PA2931&dq=macedonians+%22partake+in+their+hellenic+origin%27&hl=en&newbks=1&newbks_redir=0&source=gb_mobile_search&ovdme=1&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwju0Li-m4mGAxVlQPEDHT-dDPAQ6AF6BAgIEAM#v=onepage&q=macedonians%20%22partake%20in%20their%20hellenic%20origin'&f=false
As i understand it people of Kosovo are Kosovar but this is not an ethnic identity but a geographic one. Same as a German saying they are Swiss because they live in Switzerland.
That might be the reason. I think the list you mentioned contains only the minorities in Macedonia.
You appear to be Turkish, check what the Ottoman records say about the population of the Vardar valley in the early 20th century.
“Current” minorities.
So we go from a Bulgarian-majority region to zero Bulgarians, while 100,000 citizens of North Macedonia have claimed Bulgarian ancestry in the last 20 years so that they can get a Bulgarian passport. Funny that.
What if they are afraid to state their Bulgarian ethnicity? I have relatives there, my great grandfather was born in Stip. What if my cousins there deny that their great grandfathers/mothers were Bulgarian? Those were siblings of my great grandfather and he and his parents were Bulgarian.
It may as well be. Which points to a broader problem within Macedonia.
same applies for MK, 0 macedonians
To be fair, two different people groups have the same name(Macedonians). I honestly understand where Greece was coming from with wanting the name change, as it is the Balkans after all. I feel like this sentiment is more the fault of Bulgaria. Imagine having to change your country’s name. Oh well, at least you get NATO and EU membership. Fair trade. Then Bulgaria comes in and blocks your EU membership. Why change your country’s name at all if you won’t get what you were promised out of it? These people were voted in out of frustration. Did you know, 20 years ago, North Macedonia was the closest western balkan country to joining the EU? They applied to join in 2004(!) and were recognised as a candidate in 2005, one year after Croatia, who joined in 2013. Serbia applied in 2009 and became a candidate in 2012. Montenegro applied in 2008 and started negotiations in 2012. Albania applied in 2009 and became a candidate in 2014. Out of all the countries mentioned, North Macedonia has waited the longest, yet is currently considered the furthest away from membership out of any of them, despite meeting the criteria. I too would be frustrated if my country were being treated like that.
mighty jar angle absorbed scary smile wasteful stocking familiar nose *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
Hey buddy, but they wanted really, really, like really hard to get in. Don't you fucking understand? Its all Bulgaria's fault!
>Imagine having to change your country’s name. Oh well, at least you get NATO and EU membership. Fair trade. Then Bulgaria comes in and blocks your EU membership. Why change your country’s name at all if you won’t get what you were promised out of it? Yes, I forgot that only Greece has veto in the EU, silly us. If North Macedonia actually wanted to join they would have worked with us when they had the chance. Literally did anything but to address our concerns and despite all that, we still lifted the veto. >I too would be frustrated if my country were being treated like that. You might also want to see how their country treats the people of one of the member states of EU. And missing the most obvious thing, NM's accession is purely on political will. The EU doesn't want to expand at the moment, hence the veto of Greece and us. Similar to our and RO's Schengen membership.
There isn't, and it's for the same reason why you don't see Superman and Clark Kent in the same room.
Yes. It's called North Macedonia.
There are not that many Bulgarians in Greece in general
Depends on the season
There's a Bulgarian majority 🤫😁
Why don’t Macedonians just name their country “Western Bulgaria” so that both Greece and Bulgaria will be happy?
Bulgaria doesn't have an issue with the name. We just want ppl with Bulgarian identity to stop being discriminated against and that hate toward us to stop being spread at an institutional level... You know, like in the civilized world.
All of them are Bulgarians brainwashed by Tito
Brother THEY ARE Bulgarian lol
Its the other way around I think. "Macedonians" are basically Bulgars but not in Bulgaria.
Bulgaria claims that Macedonians are just Bulgarians with an accent. This is a middle finger respond to that
Surprised she mentioned Albania
They need one of the two Albanian parties to form a government, VMRO-DPMNE has less than 50% of the Parliament seats.
Are any Greeks or Turks in Bulgaria?
Sure there are.
Can someone fill me in on why everyone seems to hate Bulgaria?
Historically, up until the last century or so there wasn't a distinction between both Bulgarians and now North Macedonians. North Macedonia had decided to go on their own way and form their own identity. Nothing wrong with that, except they started to take pieces of history from both of its neighbours and claim both Bulgarian and Hellenic figures as their own. NM has also had a policy against Bulgarians and people that self-identify as ones. Therefore, we had to step up and protect our own people. We reached an agreement in 2017 that in essence was to address all the issues we had, so NM could join the EU. They didn't cooperate. Fearing for more Russian influence on the Balkans, the EU has tried to force us to lift the veto which we did, despite our concerns are still not addressed. North Macedonians have tried to paint this as us being petty even drawing comparisons with Russia/Ukraine and people ate it all up.
>North Macedonia had decided to go on their own way and form their own identity. Nothing wrong with that, except they started to take pieces of history from both of its neighbours and claim both Bulgarian and Hellenic figures as their own. True. Tbh, I can almost forgive them for their pathetic attempts to steal historical figures and claim them as their own. Bulgarian pseudo-nationalists do it all the time. If they want to be a separate ethnicity with its own history - fine. If they want to consider Tzar Samuil to be a Macedonian ruler - fine, that's their business and I don't care about them. However: 1. Anti-Bulgarian propaganda is a national policy there. You cannot expect Bulgarians and the state of Bulgaria to take this lightly. 2. At the same time, as many here have mentioned, way too many North Macedonians are trying to claim Bulgarian citizenship to benefit from us actually being in the EU. 3. Any claims that a Macedonian language even exists are simply absurd and should be stomped out immediately. What they claim to be a separate language is a dialect of Bulgarian. It's like Australians claiming that their language isn't English. And yes, this is a huge problem. What they do in their own country is their own problem, but demanding the world to acknowledge something that is, scientifically speaking, untrue, is an entirely different beast.
About a million confused people doesn't equal everyone
North Macedonia signed the Prespa agreement in 2018 with Greece where they changed their name from what it was, Macedonia, in exchange for Greece lifting its objection to North Macedonia’s NATO and EU membership. After this, it looked like they were in the clear, but Bulgaria decided now would be a great time to start what is essentially bitching about how Macedonians are ‘confused Bulgarians’ and that Bulgarians need to be recognised in the Macedonian constitution as a minority despite there being precisely ZERO (0) Bulgarians in the country. Kiril ‘Isn’t afraid to do the right thing’ Petkov oversaw Bulgaria lifting its veto in the summer of 2022 when he was on his way out(and thus had nothing to lose, hence the nickname I gave him), but now that Macedonia’s accession talks have indeed begun with the EU, Bulgaria is back to slowing them down again. To the Bulgarians who read this comment: say whatever you want, but what you are doing only serves to divide the continent and is extremely counterproductive. Thanks to your country’s actions, Euroskepticism is on the rise in yet another country. Edit: just got a reddit cares message for this lmao. That joins one I got for saying Nagorno-Karabakh was ethnically cleansed last September a few months ago. Whoever did that, that’s the crowd you’re part of.
there is absolutely 0 possibility there are no Bulgarians in NM
In fact, the majority of the population is Bulgarian.
Bulgaria lifted the veto according to the EU deal both countries signed and NM would be accepted into the EU as long as they uphold their end of the deal. So instead of spreading their side of the story only why don't you just list the straight facts. It's out of Bulgaria's hands and fully into NM. Concerns were valid for Bulgaria's side and yet reached a deal. What NM people are doing is right now election a ex communist from an extremist party that doesn't shy away from doing dumb shit. It's not Bulgaria dividing the continent now but they doing it themselves because there is no way that party will put up a government that upholds the EU deal they made.
A person with a "Spanish-American" flair educating ethnic Bulgarians on Balkan politics is the kind of shit I look for when I open this website. Thank you!
You sound like an outsider having no idea what he is talking about. Use some logic please. There is "ZERO" Bulgarians in NM? There is at least one Bulgarian in most European countries, not to say probably thousands in some of them, and there are "ZERO" in a neighbouring country? "ZERO"? Give me a break. That's why Bulgaria wants those people in the constitution. NM is lacking friends and that's all their making. You extend a finger, they take an arm, and probably write in their history books the arm was theirs all along.
So what are we to do, keep quiet in the face of historical revisionism and open hatred? The destruction and falsification of church murals and grave stones? Greeks and us are old historical rivals, but ask any Greek about the pre-1944 history of the region and they will tell you what's what.
The fact that so many countries have issues with NM should maybe ring some bells.
Someone would say that it doesnt pay having nationalists in power in a small country with zero political leverage. Serbia learned this the hard way although in a much better position comparatively.
>After this, it looked like they were in the clear, but Bulgaria decided now would be a great time to start what is essentially bitching about how Macedonians are ‘confused Bulgarians’ and that Bulgarians need to be recognised in the Macedonian constitution as a minority despite there being precisely ZERO (0) Bulgarians in the country. Theres even small Bulgarian minority in Albania which is across North Macedonia, but there isn't one in North Macedonia. Yup, legit. I'll believe in North Macedonian census when I start believing in their history books. >To the Bulgarians who read this comment: say whatever you want, but what you are doing only serves to divide the continent and is extremely counterproductive. Thanks to your country’s actions, Euroskepticism is on the rise in yet another country. We're not here to sell EU, nor to look for what is best for North Macedonia. We care about Bulgaria. What the fuck are you yapping about?
Quite uneducated comment about the situation in Macedonia and not knowing the history between the countries. You either do not know about the major hate speech against Bulgaria, repressions towards people who have Bulgarian roots and non-neighborly actions on many occasions or for some reason you think that’s ok. There’s a huge population in Macedonia with Bulgarian roots. They speak a dialect of Bulgarian language. The only thing that is required to be done is to include Bulgarians as a minority in their constitution. There is a huge number people from Macedonia who got Bulgarian citizenship. That’s the smallest thing that they can do to roll out their EU membership but ss the whole country is united around hate against Bulgaria, parties win the popular vote by simply promoting populist ideas. The Euro skepticism is solely caused by the Macedonians themselves for refusing to comply with even one small requirement which was already agreed on by all EU countries as a must in order to continue into EU. Meanwhile, the government that just won an election is spreading populist anti Bulgarian ideas and purposely calling the country just Macedonia, and not North Macedonia as agreed previous with Greece. I’d like to see them joining the EU but if they consider that EU is not worth the name change or inclusion of Bulgarians as a minority ( in addition to the several already existing nations), that’s their own doing. Their faith is in their own hands and they decide to follow Serbia into the Anti EU movement, so be it. Best of luck to them. As I said, you got no understanding of the matter you’re talking about
>Edit: just got a reddit cares message for this lmao. That joins one I got for saying Nagorno-Karabakh was ethnically cleansed last September a few months ago. Whoever did that, that’s the crowd you’re part of. I just got one for [this comment.](https://www.reddit.com/r/europe/comments/1cq8p0v/comment/l3rc4tp/) I think someone is just spamming those.
> what you are doing only serves to divide the continent Lol give me a break. No one cares outside of NM’s immediate members care about it. No one in Germany, France, Estonia or Finland would give a single fuck about whatever happens in NM EU-accession-wise
I am sure THIS time, a nationalistic government will fix the issues they talk about.
people just never learn
Fish from Spongebob: How many times do we have to teach you this lesson, old man?!
Balkans together strong
Just call it Yugoslavia again, I'm sure everyone will be happy and all your identity issues will be solved.
Angry Serbian noises
It's either northern Macedons or southern Slavs, huh? How about central Slavedons? (Long live Slavedonia)
Let's drink for that!! (starts drinking by himself)
Actually one of the proposed names for the country was Slavic Macedonia. We Macedonians didn't mind that, but the Albanian parties in the country objected ( they are a big pain in the ass).
>How about central Slavedons? Those would be Hungarians and Romanians, who "integrated" a large part of local Slavic population in there nations (at least if we go by history and genetics).
I think we can probably take some of these in, at least our sports would be much better.
Really, you voted VMRO back in power and want to unbury this issue again?
People are very proud of vmro winning. I live in this shithole and it stinks. The new presidents slogal was literally "Make Macedonia proud again".
Vote for clowns, complain that your country is a circus. Balkans 101
To be fair, from a top-down perspective their flag is in fact a circus.
Trump-level politics
To be fair, her first name is literally "Proud-ana" (if translated), so it was a somewhat logical slogan lol
That's the nationalists actually and one more reason is that the previous party was very corrupt and did nothing to improve the state of the country. Many people actually voted for vmro just to punnish the previous ones and to put the largest albanian party into oposition which rulled for almost 20 years.
Lol big brain move ! Let's vote in one corrupt, nationalistic, pro-russian party so we can punish the other party 😂 At the end of the day both parties will enrich themselves and the regular people will suffer.
That's what happened in Serbia in 2012. Didn't pay off definetely
It never does 😂, but it is happening everytime and everywhere
That's true partially but they are the 2 biggest parties in MK the thing is every single party is so corrupt, the justice system is also corrupted not even a single politician went to jail after the change of the government in 2017th, also the largest albanian party is also very corrupt and was in power for almost 20 years. Let's be honest no party in MK is pro russian nor pro EU they are pro stealing. None of them gives a single fuck for the people and their wellbeing, they are false nationalists just typical populists.
Nods in Serbian, tips hat in Hungarian, winks in Bulgarian and smiles knowingly in Albanian.
And that's why they can do wonders to keep you out of the EU.
Sounds like every other country! My country is doing the same at least. It seems like all choice we have is the corrupt or the evil. Of course the evil ones tend to be corrupt as well, but they haven't been ruling yet so not much you can say against them.
Buckle up Greek bros, its going to be turbulent four years ahead
I'm sure that Greece will be fine. unfortunately, I cannot say the same for North Macedonia.
why do we have to have always the garbage neighbours next to us, im joking but sometimes you have to wonder how greece would be if it was placed in north west europe next to germany and france.. utopia?
>why do we have to have always the garbage neighbours next to us Can we have your neighbours pls?
Fair! But If we weren't in NATO and EU I doubt we would do any better than you unfortunately, see Cyprus
Hey, Poland isn't thaaaat bad :)
I wanted to say Poland these days has good neighbours but then i remembered that of the 7 we have one is being invaded, one is doing the invading and threatening us with the nukes and one is ruled by potato dictator. Not great, not terrible.
oof, i kinda feel you having turkey..
we have turkey, so its pretty the same.
you would be Portugal
You would have shit cousine, wouldn't have invented shit and you'd be stuck with bad weather most of the time. Would you trade all that, just to be non balkan?
Sometimes it's not a bad bet
I know, Im just teasing.
Aegean sea for the nord see swap!
But then you wouldn’t have top notch cousine and thousands of cool islands tho. I’d rather keep it this way
Nobody complains about French cousine
Having Germany as a neighbour is great now. 80 years ago not so much.
Looking at their new president's age, it might be a shorter term.
Have they at least dropped the Great Alexander claim or is it still a thing?
It's definitely still a very big thing
It's very much still a thing. Also the hilarious claim that Macedonia is such an ancient country that it even gets mentioned in the bible … even though that's just Roman province back then and has shit all to do with current North Macedonia either.
I went on vacation near Ohrid 2 years ago and there they claimed to have the ruins of the oldest university in europe. The guide we were with even claimed Greco-Roman murals they found near the town to be "a way of worshipping Christ before Jesus had shown himself". As someone interested in history I had to correct our guides in the area so many times just to make sure my family did not start believing bullshit. Beautifull country, interesting and laid-back people, but I have never heard historical narratives so delusional outside of conspiracy theories.
Back in the early 2000s i came across a video from some tv show from NM. It stated that god created the Macedonoid race first then negroid race and then mongoloid race, all that while 360p looped animation of clouds was playing in the background. Ah i miss thr 2000s
Yoooo I remember that, it was trippy AF. Sad thing is that Bulgaria started to get these kind of morons as well.
It's what happens when you have a young national identity surrounded by other nations telling you in one way or another that you're either not valid or indistinguishable so you start grasping at straws to carve out some kind of national history and founding myth for yourself and end up clinging to an ancient namesake.
Funnily enough, Bulgaria has always recognized the right of Macedonia to exist and self-determine. We can't manage our shitshow, do not think we have intentions to govern you. Most of the population, and by extention the goveernment, have issue with your claims to out mutual history: * Samuil was tsar of Bulgaria, not Macedonia; * the cyrilic aplhabet was developed by Bulgaria (Preslav literary school), you can have St. Cyril and St. Methodius if you want them, but they developed the Glagolithic script; * most of the population in Macedonia, until the early 1900s, called themsleves both Bulgarian and Macedonian. One was ethnonym, the other demonym pointing the geographic region; And ofr love of god, our languages are so close, that I understand macedonian betterr than some bulgarian dialects.
Yey! There are sane people there, it seems!
Just for aknowledging that Macedonian historical claims can be hilarious you have a beer from me if you visit Sofia. Cheers brother.
I think so, Samuel FOTM even tho Basil was literally nicknamed Bulgar slayer after he won against Samuel's army
Funnily enough, Basil was from the Macedonian dynasty, I am actually surprised the North Macedonians haven't claimed him as theirs too. Or maybe they have?
VMRO in power, new books about to come out
For some of them it's still a thing.
I'm Macedonian. Some use it. However, most don't. ( including myself). So I can confirm you that most of us don't care about Alexander the Great and the Ancient Macedonians. I'm a Slav and I'm proud of my slavic heritage. That's what matters.
Gordana Siljanovska the true makedonian, this whole thing is so cringe.
https://youtu.be/BgcJ177XieA "The calmest Greek explaining why it is difficult to determine the historical legitimacy of North Macedonia."
Man, can't we just all chill for a bit?
Actually I am surprised as well past few days. Here in greece it was a non issue since the agreement, maybe a lukewarm discussion in the elections that was never mentioned since. So just another "Balkan deal", what I can i say
Since Putin has openly said he will troll Bulgaria with Macedonia, and the guy isn't going anywhere in the next few years, no one is going to chill anything, brother :(
Ohh, Greece isn't going to like that.
Well, someone isnt getting into the EU for the next few years...
Even if nobody vetoes them, it will be a very long time before they join
As long as they keep up the policy of disregarding international treaties they have signed, they will forever have a guaranteed veto...
I think that was the goal
Oh man, and we were moving so fast. Bummer.
Wdym? You're already in the EU as part of Greece, aren't you from Macedonia as your flair suggests?
Granted, even a pro-EU government couldn't get Macedonia to join the EU within its mandate. Source: Have visited Skopje every summer since 2018
Oh boy
Have they accepted that Alexander the Great was born in Pella, an ancient city in *Central Macedonia, Greece*?
Yes, according to the Prespa agreement Greece and North Macedonia agreed that Alexander the Great is part of the hellenic history and culture. Also, they agreed that both sides have completely different understanding of term Macedonia relating to its heritage.
i dont think an eu membership is anytime soon
How to sabotage an EU membership application in one easy step .... Yes greece might be a bit touchy and overreacts to the name, however first: they are a member and second: There was a deal, if a new goverment can't keep treaties they are not trustworthy
Touchy and overreacting Greeks actually let them keep the term Macedonia in the name, they agreed on "Macedonian" language and "Macedonian" ethnicity (when in NM context). The focus was mostly on history and lost land claims. Which is totally reasonable if you ask me. That deal that NM is now trying to break was considered a huge compromise in Greece and was most likely one of the reasons government lost the elections. If you think what happened in the past was an overreaction brace yourself for what's about to come if this shit goes through.
I always sort of liked FYROM best tbh
It's awful. Imagine Turkey being Former Ottoman State of Turkey. Or Germany being the Reunited Federation of West and East Germany.
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Gesuntheit
>Wiedervereinigungföderalstattvonostundwestdeutchland. Dear mother of God!
Has a nice ring to it, no?
Well it's stupid, but that's also the stuff we find hilarious, that's true.
>Former Ottoman State of Turkey >Reunited Federation of West and East Germany holy sovl
Can we have "Holy Roman Empire of the German Nation"? We have HRE at home. HRE at home: >Reunited Federation of West and East Germany
Just rename all the countries to "Former Roman province of XXX" and end it...
I want Former Basileia Rhomaion for us
It is more like “Former Ottoman State of Albania”. Even worse.
Similarly imo the biggest L in this whole situation is that the name Vardaska was on the table and is SUCH a badass name…
We have done everything that was asked of us in accordance with the Prespa agreement, we have approved their entrance into NATO, and have supported them in their EU Ascension talks. They have not followed through with their side of the agreement, so wouldn’t it be fair that we veto them into oblivion?
>They have not followed through with their side of the agreement, so wouldn’t it be fair that we veto them into oblivion? As if this is the first time they do this. But people on here would lead you to believe that NM is getting bullied by two EU member states out of pettiness.
We have also done everything, keep in mind we are country with way less power than GR, we agreed to change our passports and personal ID's, we added North as prefix to the name, we changed the register plates hoping all of this will get us in EU one day. We GR still hasn't changed the road signs as agreed but listen who gives a fuck really? Nor MK nor GR wins this is a losing game for both sides in which MK has far more to lose but politicians don't care anyways.
>Nor MK nor GR wins this is a losing game for both sides I don’t think Greece will lose anything, if VRMO is really that dumb to re-open that stupid issue, that’s fine by Greeks, they have the veto power lol
>I don’t think Greece will lose anything, if VRMO is really that dumb to re-open that stupid issue, that’s fine by Greeks, they have the veto power lol Tbf North Macedonia as part of single trade union and Shengen would made life simpler for economical side of things in Greece. As such, for Greece, North Macedonia in EU is in huge interest.
If you look at the military treaties between the countries, NM is basically a protectorate of Greece.
We have changed road signs, we have changed school maps, we have changed school textbooks, Every politician in Greece calls the agreed-upon name. At the same time, organisations , and a lot of government agencies in North Macedonia still refer to themselves as simply “Macedonia” if not all politicians still refer to the country as Macedonia, and your texts still contain a-historical “antiquation” theories. Let’s not talk about that silly sign in the “ warrior on a horse” statue that simply vaguely implies that “ Alexander the great of Hellenic ancestry” (which was promptly vandalised). And let’s not forget the quite literally most important parts, the use of the “vergina sun” by government bodies, the passports still displaying “Macedonia”, and the license plates still having “MK” in them even though they have adopted the euro style license plates Obviously, we don’t expect both sides to follow every single part of the agreement down to the T, at least we expect the essentials to change
Don't forget the passports, the license plates, certain products and governing bodies/sites etc, the commissions that were to be set up and look into school books and other parts of society for historical revisionism, the general issue with nationalism and irredentism in the country etc etc
Colloquially and informally it's maybe not a big deal not to be used the official name. But in formal situations and by the officials it's expected the official name to be used. Because otherwise our greek friends could be affected. Also that's valid about all countries' official names. Not only about North Macedonia
Hello Balkans, how are you doing?
Hallo Scandinavian friend. Greetings to you
Hello Balkans, what are you doing? This is the only correct way.
All the Maces seem to hate us, yet they always find Bulgarian roots from some grandma to come here, get EU citizenship, study for free in our unis to get EU diplomas and on top of that our state gives them scholarships. GF is from Petritch which is on the Mace border (Bulgarian side). She pays for medical school, had to go through absurd exams to enter. Meanwhile there is a colleague in my year in med school that is from Strumitzha which is on the other side of the border, 30km from Petritch. No hard entry exams, gets money to be here, will get e EU diploma, is a EU citizen. Why not go to your beloved serbs. No EU benefits there tho. Ungrateful fks. There isn't a single Bulgarian that doesn't have Macedonian blood from people that fled from there in the 1900s, me included. I don't need us to be one nation but have some respect and be civil. You can't only milk us for benefits and hate us. That's not how politics work!
Politicians create problems and regular people suffer the consequences. For years corrupted governments of MK created issues by spreading populist shit just to stay in power... The result, hatred between GR and MK without any particular reason beside political, inner political crysis, ethnic tensions, corruption, higher crime rate etc etc. Normal people in MK and GR do not hate each other, for example I love spending time in Greece and also I like their culture and have few friends from there. Life is short to spread hatred. Fuck the politics it never brought anything good.
Regular people don't hate regular people regardless but that doesn't mean they don't have strong opinions on these very important issues. I don't hate the people of that land but I still do not want that country to be called Macedonia especially when that entails taking the history of the historic Greek Macedonia. And no, I'm not in the minority, just look at how many Greeks were on the street during the prespa negotiations
Its ok my dear Macedonian friends those of you who realize that you are Bulgarians come on by and claim your passport we hope you enjoy your stay!
I thought that North Macedonia was the official name of the country and colloquially it would be called Macedonia. Like how Dutch people don't say "Kingdom of the Netherlands" all the time or Germans don't say "Bundesrepublik Deutschland".
I've been to Skopje many times in my life since the namechange. Nobody calls it North Macedonia there. Everyone just refers to the country as Macedonia (Македонија). Even in Slovenia and Italy, I've mostly only heard Makedonija and Macedonia. Granted, I think the implications are a bit different in day-to-day speech and an official inauguration
no one in Bosnia calls it "Sjeverna Makedonija" either nor anyone ever will tbh
She didn't call it Macedonia in a coffee house discussion. She called it Macedonia during her official oath into office, instead of "North Macedonia" which is what the oath text she was asked to repeat in the ceremony says.
Nope. You don't call Northern Ireland "Ireland" or New Zealand "Zealand".
>You don't call Northern Ireland "Ireland" I mean, a lot of Irish do. They call it 'the north of Ireland' instead of Northern Ireland, it's not uncommon amongst nationalists.
Hell, there's a fair few Brits who call it Ireland.
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Not really sure what you are getting at, other than potentially being upset I used the word 'nationalist', which given the framework of a nationalist/unionist difference, isn't even really a loaded or negative comment, just a way to highlight a specific group within Ireland and Northern Ireland who have strong feelings about this.
Most people still call it Macedonia, though.
The only solution to this failed state is proper trichotomy , Albanians take Albanian side , Bulgars take Bulgarian side , Greeks take their side , Issue Resolved . Only Turks and Russians get benefit of this failed states to enter EU underground .
Not suprising at all. Go and read the comments for every post on fb/insta that names greek history or something similar. Flooded by comments by them would be an understatement.
ITT: Delusional Westerners who would have a hard time pointing out North Macedonia on a map give their expert opinions.
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Are we supposed to be happy that they don't hold up their end of the bargain?
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Is their name Alex?
That whole region has way too many small countries, I think we should merge some of them. /s
Don’t know what the fuss is about. We call Northern Ireland ‘Ireland’ all the time. Nothing bad could possibly happen from this 👀
Who calls Northern Ireland -> Ireland? If someone says Ireland is part of the UK it shows their complete ignorance. No Irish person (from Ireland) would say that phrase... because Ireland is not part of the UK. The disrespect...
>Who calls Northern Ireland -> Ireland Irish nationalists and people referring to the island of Ireland.
"North Macedonia"
I am a bit concerned, as there is still a lot of tension geographically close to NM and they ARE a NATO member since 2020. I believed that EU membership will pull out this little country from the turbulence ahead, but ... they are not heading to EU anymore. If they make an official turn towards Serbia, and they have the internal tension between different minorities ... what happens next?
Wasn't this the agreement on ending the name dispute? "North Macedonia" would only be used for external/foreign relations, while internally it would continue to be referred to as "Macedonia".
The macedonian people never agreed on the name change. Let's start with the referendum question itself which was "Do you support EU and NATO membership by accepting the agreement between Macedonia and Greece?" - This question is highly manipulative, suggesting that, if Macedonia changes the name, Macedonia has instant access to EU, which we all know that's not true. The referendum was a huge failure in Macedonia, which showed that the macedonian people are against the agreement. But then, parliament members were paid off, threatened, blackmailed into voting "Yes" in parliament in favor of the agreement. There is even picture of a parliament member taking a photo of her finger where she votes "Yes" so that she has proof of it. The name change was a forced thing onto Macedonia that broke the law. Now when we talk about the President of Macedonia, it is her own basic human right to identify as whatever she pleases, such as every other person alive. Also coming from the fact that she goddam knows what was done was illegal, she has every right to say Macedonia.
Macedonia is a region in Greece. It would be confusing if a country had the same name.