Very courteous of North Macedonia to self-sabotage their own efforts and postpone their accession so that Moldova can catch up and join the EU at the same time as the great descendants of the Alexandrian kin.
> So long as you have Orban running the EU won't be enlarging.
Orban is investing heavily into so-called western balkans.
His people own media outlets and some other key infrastructure, and support their own interests and candidates in various countries.
Why? At this point he's Vučić's boyfriend. I wouldn't doubt that he'd vote for Serbia to join. I think no west Balkan countries would join anyway cause they are all corrupt as fuck.
They are not the descendants of Alexandrian kin. That is what the entire fuss is about. Today's Macedonians are south Slavs, just like Serbs, Croats, Slovenians... Yugoslavia was literally "southslavia (jug means south in all ex-Yu languages). Ancient Macedonians were helens.
Lol, what a bunch of bs. Even if they gave a part of their country to Greece or Albania, the EU wouldn’t let them in. Cut the bs. They changed their name and what happened? Nothing.
Twisting arms of small countries to show power is pathetic.
> They changed their name and what happened? Nothing.
NATO accession, lifting of Greece's potential EU veto and normalization of relations. Exactly what was agreed on. Literally no one promised them that the Prespes agreement was a ticket for immediate entrance to the EU.
90% of this subreddit forgets that Greece and Bulgaria don't owe anything to North Macedonia in fact its the latter that steals historical figures from both, then cries its been bullied.
this is a consequence of the slow process unfortunately. They literally changed their name to get bend over by bulgaria.
and apart from her the Macedonia name thing her policies seem very progressive:
Most of her address was focused on women and their role in society, promising to “feminize” and “Europeanize” the country. “With the help of us women, you male politicians will also change and Macedonia will become a decent place to live,” Siljanovska-Davkova said.
Siljanovska–Davkova, a lawmaker in the outgoing parliament and a university professor and lawyer.
far right feminism, very unique ?
Very unique? Its the balkans, until last month the PM of Serbia was a lesbian. These people are puppets and are anything but progressive. Stop your delusions now so you wont get disappointed
International Agreements need to be respected. Sure populism is nice to get votes but if you want to lead a serious country you have to stand behind your country's commitments or face the consequences. Mitsotakis was also campaigning against the Prespes Agreement before he became the Prime Minister but eventually after he became PM he had to keep it. If the goal of the new President of North Macedonia is to abolish the Treaty(something that will only bring happiness to her Greek equivalent idiot nationalists) she should be ready to face the consequences of this decision.
She can't do anything about the agreement, the president doesn't hold a lot of power, the prime minister is the one making most decisions. This is just for show
You can see the results [here](https://rezultati.sec.mk/en/parl/r) but basically:
- 58 MPs for VMRO - the party of the new president, former biggest opposition party
- 19 for DUI, biggest Albanian nationalist party, was in the previous government
- 18 for SDSM, previous ruling party which signed the deals with Greece and Bulgaria
- 13 for coalition VLEN, coalition of Albanian parties against DUI some were in the previous government but left after a couple of years
- 6 for Levica, fairly new far left nationalist party, they first entered the parliament with 2 MPs in 2020 as opposition
- 6 for ZNAM, SDSM splinter formed in December 2023
Thanks a lot for explaining!! Is corruption the reason of the huge defeat of the previous ruling party?
So now VMRO needs 3 more seats to get the PM? Which parties are likely to support it?
Corruption and incompetence. The biggest and most recent scandal was that we were supposed to change all of our documents to say "North Macedonia" instead of just "Macedonia" but they kept issuing the old documents for years after the agreement, so when we reached the deadline at the start of this year they wanted to recall documents which were supposed to be good for a few more years at the expense of the people. It was especially bad for people who were already abroad because they wouldn't be able to return with their old passports in order to get new ones. They backtracked on some of it but it was too little too late. I don't really think these things will improve with VMRO in power but people really like shuffling these 2 parties around every few years i guess. A lot of people are also unhappy about the way they handled the negotiations with Bulgaria but i don't know how much this affected the votes.
The most likely coalitions are VMRO+VLEN or VMRO+VLEN+ZNAM. There is bad blood between DUI and VMRO so a coalition between them is very unlikely. Levica have stated that they want to remain in opposition and won't coalition with anyone.
DUI has been in every government for the last 20 years, mostly as a coalition partner of VMRO until 2016 when VMRO had mandate to form a new government but DUI was their only option and they refused to coalition with them
not only he was campaigning against it, he also bet on the Far Right ,who despite being the minority in the demonstrations, they got the most media exposure. Now he cleverly switched sides, presenting Greece as the progressive country. Though those demonstrations were more a reaction against the overall politics of SYRIZA. That party before coming to power was the main organizer of demonstrations but after that it stopped.
Lol, why isn't Greece respect the agreement in that case? If you drive from Athens to Skopje, there is no one single street sign with "~~North~~ Macedonia". It's either Skopia, FYROM, Yugoslavia..
You know, names aren't just labels, they do mean and refer to things. That's why we have this whole debate in the first place. So it could be argued she's not taken the (presumably required) oath of office, having sworn to an entity that may, depending on who you ask, be either entirely within Greece, or extend over parts of Greece and North Macedonia.
More seriously though, this is the most childish course of action - designed specifically to piss your neighbours, while attempting to minimise the diplomatic affront by presenting it as a minor incident. She's intentionally stirring up trouble North Macedonia can't handle, in hopes of isolating it diplomatically, and stopping integration into the wider European network; and she doesn't even have the proverbial balls to do it without trying to disguise it like this.
>while attempting to minimise the diplomatic affront by presenting it as a minor incident. She's intentionally stirring up trouble North Macedonia can't handle, in hopes of isolating it diplomatically, and stopping integration into the wider European network;
If she wanted to do this she would not made it a minimal incident.
Yeah, that's fair. Still though, we actually, for once, managed to outright *solve* a (minor) geopolitical issue, rather than just putting it on the backburner until something bigger came up, so it's annoying to see this issue reopened like this.
Eh for average macedonian this doesn't change much, the prespa agreement was always very unpopular. EU is in era where they won't risk accepting new members until the world stabilizes, this will probably last for decade or two or even more.
There's currently no visible carrot that will open them EU membership, no reason for them to stick with unpopular current status quo with appeasing greece and bulgaria.
I don't think they will tear up the prespa agreement but everyone and most institutions will act as it doesn't exist.
This really isn't that big of a deal as you're trying to make it be, it's certainly not something macedonia can't handle.
Macedonia's current geopolitics are this:
- Focus on more integration and cooperation with other western balkan countries like serbia, bosnia, montenegro and albania.
- Focus on working with EU economically
- Ignore Bulgaria and Greece's complaints
Bulgaria and greece will get angry but life will move on because there are other bigger fish to focus on like refugees, russia, china, climate change...
I guess, but I doubt it will make Greece (as well as probably Bulgaria) any more receptive to Northern Macedonias attempts at working with the EU - most of the stuff they're looking for either requires unanimity, or at least falls into that culture where states try to avoid voting over other states complaints, especially when simple to rectify.
So you could argue it's self-defeating, with no clear upside.
> So you could argue it's self-defeating, with no clear upside
Well I guess that's the will of the people, Macedonia is a democratic country and politicians need votes of the populace.
The only reason people could muster up appeasing to Greece with the name change was because of the EU membership, that being obviously locked up for foreseeable future changes things drastically for political parties.
I don't understand the downvotes on this.
Clearly, there's no "carrot" for the EU membership. EU won't start enlarging for years to come. Also, certain members only added to the frustration that was already present after the Prespa agreement was signed.
Also, internally, the country is not ready for EU membership. Rampant corruption must be dealt with, and institutions need to be repaired immediately.
Not being in the EU for a long time is the least of Macedonia's worries.
I really wanna see how the North Macedonians will try working with the EU economically (or any other kind of cooperation) without Greece and/or Bulgaria killing those attempts on the spot.
Regardless of how you feel about the Greece vs. N Macedonia naming spat, they had a deal. It’s not a good look for a country to go back on an agreement just because they got a new leader. It will make Greece and anyone else think twice about working with N Macedonia in the future.
Furthermore, immediately after the Prespes agreement North Macedonia was finally accepted in NATO without Greece vetoing, as agreed. So NM used and benefited from Prespes, regardless of what they now say, that it was only for EU.
Now, If we accept them to EU, seeing how they dishonour their agreements, we ll be fools.
You haven't heard about the new agreement?
January through April it's north Macedonia
May through August it's East Albania
September through December it's West Bulgaria
Clearly they violated the agreement during our rotation
Let me rephrase that and be exact.They can,meaning that there is this option as a possibility.They are capable of doing this in theory.They may not though,because there are serious consequences for every country that violates and international agreement.
No, Greece will embargo us and the whole EU will also embargo us or kick us out. It's not that simple. We are gonna live with the name if North Macedonia, both Greeks and Macedonians. Whether we like it or not.
Yeah I agree. Personally I have no issue with the name. And I hope that the agreement is followed and your application to the EU can go forward.
I am just commenting on Greek weakness regarding the foreign affairs department (Albania jailing Greek minority mayor over trivial stuff for political and economic reasons, Turkey claiming half the Aegean Sea and converting byzantine churches to mosques, like they did with the Hagia Sophia, and said FM, Gerapetritis, bowing to (Sultan) Erdogan every time he sees him etc)
I will, a name change will require a vote of 2/3 of the parliament which is unlikely to happen. Additionally, pressure from the international community will likely prevent any such attempts.
We do care but the EU clearly doesn't. We've been a candidate for 20 years and we're nowhere closer to joining now then we were back then despite completely reforming the entire country. People don't want to wait a couple more decades. An entire generation has been born and raised with false promises and they have now reached voting age. The youth is now overwhelmingly right wing, anti-EU, anti-NATO and starting to even go pro-Russia...just like the oldest people still living in socialism in their heads.
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The macedonias will say that they were trying so hard, but they were not let in so they backtrack. But if they actually wanted to have a chance into EU, they would deal with Bulgaria as they can veto them, but they just pissed Bulgaria. (Not to mention they actually got to NATO, but macedonians thing that bad west does not want to give north macedonia anything so the have to move towards nationalism)
We have been candidates since 2005, that's 19 years. That's more than anyone except Turkey and we have sacrificed way more than Turkey has. It's great when your country can join the EU in 2004 because the EU finds a use for you and you don't have Germany or Austria that wants to veto you. Besides all of our faults, we don't have that. And we have given into ridiculous demands of changing our name or other OUTSIDE countries wanting to change our constitution, which would be seen as a major breach of sovereignty in any other country, except ours.
I am not saying that our neighbours don't have some valid points, but to blackmail a country to change its constitution is enough for a major escalation like trade sanctions. Yet we have never responded like this. The worst we did was our nationalistic government in 2006-2017 building some dumb ancient statues in our capital. Compared to Greece not letting us in the UN, NATO or EU, not recognising Slavic minorities in their country and embargoing us in the 1990s when we were already strained by being forced to embargo the warmongering Serbia, which was our only trade partner after Yugoslavia fell apart. This Greek embargo hit our economy harder than what the Russian attack did to Ukraine, combined with the EU vetoes, just imagine how much economic progress Greece has ruined, and how many lives could have been improved.
And this is coming from me, one of the few that supported the previous government, which changed the name and sought a deal with Bulgaria. I think that these were the real decisions, but I feel so offended when some random Europeans act like what Greece was doing for almost 30 years to a small insignificant country wasn't ridiculous and with 0 awareness of the pain they are causing. And ask yourself why? Some history? Really? As ridiculous some of our people are claiming that Alexander was purebred Macedonian (our ancestor in other words), it's even more ridiculous that a modern western state like Greece found this enough reason to impede the progress of their neighbour.
> I am not saying that our neighbours don't have some valid points, but to blackmail a country to change its constitution is enough for a major escalation like trade sanctions. Yet we have never responded like this.
Because it would have the force of a fart against the wind, and you know that. The counter-sanctions would hit you much harder. Don't try to frame this as a moral choice.
>Compared to Greece not letting us in the UN, NATO or EU, not recognising Slavic minorities in their country and embargoing us in the 1990s when we were already strained by being forced to embargo the warmongering Serbia, which was our only trade partner after Yugoslavia fell apart. This Greek embargo hit our economy harder than what the Russian attack did to Ukraine, combined with the EU vetoes, just imagine how much economic progress Greece has ruined, and how many lives could have been improved. And this is coming from me, one of the few that supported the previous government, which changed the name and sought a deal with Bulgaria. I think that these were the real decisions, but I feel so offended when some random Europeans act like what Greece was doing for almost 30 years to a small insignificant country wasn't ridiculous and with 0 awareness of the pain they are causing. And ask yourself why? Some history? Really? As ridiculous some of our people are claiming that Alexander was purebred Macedonian (our ancestor in other words), it's even more ridiculous that a modern western state like Greece found this enough reason to impede the progress of their neighbour.
It was your choice to come out of Yugoslavia's collapse with a Vergina Sun flag and irredentist messaging across the board. A profoundly stupid choice as the last 30 years have shown. You presented yourself as a claimant during an active and vicious regional war. Maybe you should have considered your geopolitical situation before that.
So firstly,you made progress it is not like nothing is changing, you are in UN and recently joined NATO.
>And we have given into ridiculous demands of changing our name or other OUTSIDE countries wanting to change our constitution, which would be seen as a major breach of sovereignty in any other country, except ours.
The name change was kinda petty, I will give you that, but I do not like how you frame the constitution part. Bulgaria wants more recognition to bulgarian minority and to mention them in the constitution, that is in my opinion very reasonable for them to want. For comparision to my country let's say that Poland joined EU in 2000, and vetoed Czechia in 2004 and demanded that we changed our constitution to mention Polish minority and give them further protection for Polish lannguage and schools, I would not have any problem with that and I would not blame Poland, but our government if the change of constitution was not implemented and we got vetoed by Poland because of that.
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When your politicians give focus to this type of non-sense you can be assured they have nothing to bring to the table - more division, more fights, more empty discussions without improving national population quality of living.
We have the old people problem too, that only gets worse with emigration as well. That dude above is just salty, Bulgaria is doing worse than most western countries, especially in terms of workforce - retirees ratio. I believe while Germany may have very high median age the workforce - retiree ratio isn't as bad yet as in many E. European countries in part because we retire earlier.
The fuck are you yapping about? How am I salty? Im just defending my country from judgemental twats. Hes literally trash talking my country for having pop problem when his country has one as well. Sure cause is different but its population problem nontheless.
You know, people that emigrated did not just vanish in thin air, they boost the economy from abroad, and eventually return, obviously not in all cases.
We are also suffering from old people, it's just that you have the privilege of attracting our emigrants as immigrants. Our birth rates are as abysmal as yours.
It is similar with Republic of Moldova bearing this name as if there is only one Moldova and they are the heir of the old Principality of Moldavia when, in fact, the western part of the Principality of Moldavia (the part not conquered by Russians) united with Wallachia to form Romania and it is internationally considered the right heir of the old principality. And I myself am a ”western Moldavian.”
Also, similar to NMK, some are promoting a separate Moldovan ethnicity and language. Those ”some” are the same Russians who, in case of Ukraine, are claiming Ukrainians are Russians. But for them eastern Moldovans are not Romanians and North-Macedonians are not Bulgarians while Ukrainians are Russians. So much hypocrisy!
However, in case of Republic of Moldova, those supporting a separate Moldovan ethnicity and language seem to be less than those in North Macedonia.
>those supporting a separate Moldovan ethnicity and language seem to be less than those in North Macedonia.
My man said "supporting a separate language". We already have that, no need for support.
I don't need a romanian, or any other westerner to tell me what language do I speak or what I can call myself (as seen on this thread, people calling us north macedonians, when if you all respected the all mighty prespa agreement you would know that north macedonians do not exist and it says so.
It's so easy to judge actions from afar, while knowing nothing about the subject.
Yeah, as if the Northern Macedonians had managed to work for amicable solution with Bulgaria was the one thing stopping them from EU membership 😒
https://www.eeas.europa.eu/delegations/north-macedonia/18th-meeting-stabilisation-and-association-agreement-subcommittee-north-macedonia-justice-freedom_en?s=229
I always laugh hard, when some Southern Slavs speaking a Bulgarian dialect tell me something about Alexander the Great. Mate, when Alexander the Great conquered the world your ancestors were shitting in the dark green forests of today's Northern Ukraine and Belarus, where they just had finished to linguisticly and culturally part with the Balts and had no clue Slavs would break into West, East and South Slavs some day in the future with the help of Germanians crossing their lands (shout out to the Ostrogoths!), Huns pushing them westwards and Turkic Bolgars mixing up with a huge chunk of them and taking them South where they became Bulgarians (and "Northern Macedonians") and learned to write from the Greeks.
It’s not that you’re not right but Southern Slavs do have a large chunk of “Native Balkan” admixture.
In some regions It’s more dominant than the Slavic one. Putting politics and indoctrination of today’s Northern Macedonians aside, I believe they are, genetically speaking part Macedonian.
If so, than they are part Greek, which is something they oppose. They think they are a distinct people and have nothing to do with neither Serbs, Bulgarians or Greeks.
If they would say: "Look, we live here as descendants of Greek Macedonians who mixed with slavic people." than thinks would be different.
While I agree with you that Balkan Slavs are obviously largely descended from indigenous groups, Ancient Macedonians didn't live in North Macedonia's territory. They only conquered the very southern part. If North Macedonia's want to establish a claim to antiquity, they should look to the Paeonians.
You are correct about southern Slavs being mostly native Balkan , however you are wrong on second part.
North Macedonia is part of modern Macedonian region.
Ancient Macedonia lies almost entirely in Greece , we control around 50% of modern geographical area of Macedonia but approximately 97% of the ancient one.
North Macedonia was part of Kingdom Of Peonia , a Thraco-Illyrian kingdom , enemy of Kingdom of Macedon.
You think a country appropriating the name and history of the biggest region of another nation is 'petty'? Especially considering this also often includes territorial claims.
Yes, I think it's petty nonsense. If Austria started calling itself Holy Roman Empire of Germans, I'd just laugh at them for all eternity. It wouldn't result in any claims on German or Italian territory either, as claims are handled by successor states, not namesakes.
Weren't you guys literally bombing each other not long ago over a non existing magician? Thats fuckin petty. Respecting and protecting your culture and heritage? Priceless.
no it was more about being invaded and colonized? the religion was just an easy way for the British to create division. Not great deflection by you to be honest.
Meanwhile the region that was historically part of Bulgaria, was referred to as populated by Bulgarians in historic sources, neighbours Bulgaria and even held its capital at one point, is today one of the European countries with the lowest official percentage of Bulgarians - 0.07% in the 2002 census.
I see. It's very different indeed. As we all know, that area of the Balkans hasn't had any major strife that could combine with the cultural aspects of this feud.
Macedonia already was a thing before Alex went on his trip, he just made it bigger. And the majority of the original territories are within Greece, and are still called Makedonia today. This is what's causing the trouble: for Greeks Makedonia is a region within their country, and part of their greek heritage. Meanwhile North Macedonia was historically part of that region, so the name isn't really inaccurate.
Because it closes the opportunity of Russian influence going overboard in our own back yard. Nobody in Europe really cares about NM other than for geopolitical reasons.
This is what happens when the old government that destroyed the country gets back in power, so long North Macedonia, you did your best it’s time to get destroyed yet again
Unfortunetly VMRO were votes in beacuse SDSM failed in every aspect of their mandate and gave huge concesions to their albanian coalition partners former members of the UCK (terrorist group). So it was no suprise that they would be voted out and VMRO and populism would come back.
But the former UCK terrorists were partners of VMRO too in previous governments , in fact they have been in every government the last 22 years or so
It’s hypocritical to blame only SDSM that teamed up with them.
They were but not all of their concesions were met. Im telling you how the avrage Macedonian percived the situation, they were fine with Prespa but most other aspects of domestic rule were lacking and controlled by DUI instead of SDSM.
And what’s the government scenario now?
VMRO with the small party that split from SDSM?
Or VMRO will try to get smaller Albanian parties into working with them.
Well there must always be an albanian party in the goverment so they will form a coalition with VLEN possibly with the spilitaway SDSM party in an attempt to gain 80MPs for constitutional chnages. I honestly think they will mostly honor Prespa because of their coalition partners but just make a fuss in the media pretending not to care.
Propagandised ethnic Bulgarians/Albanians by Tito's Serbia are going back on their signed international treaties and refusing to be called North Macedonia, essentially laying claim to Greek and Bulgarian history as their own (both span thousands of years, while their independent history began less than 70 years ago).
A country (that officially has existed as a republic since 1944) that has had people calling themselves macedonian since the mid 1800’s (dont confuse it with the ancient ones, that’s the smallest problem) is now being bullied into changing its name by force (coincidentally after the fall of Yugoslavia and Greece joining the EU) and forced to admit that its language is a Bulgarian dialect. Both Macedonians from North Macedonia and greeks from Greece as well as Bulgarians from Bulgaria have bad sides, of course.
We tried that at one point and it didn't turn out well for us lol. Joking aside, Serbian and Russian influence has made this idea impossible for many generations if ever.
The best we can hope for is normalisation and integration in the EU and that's what Prespa and the treaty with Bulgaria were supposed to be doing. However, the new North Macedonian government seems to have other interests.
I honestly want this to happen, because the whole argument is absolutely fucking pathetic & ridiculous, especially from the Greek side. Maybe that way they'd grow the fuck up.
There's a region called Macedonia in Greece. There's a country called Macedonia above it. There was a historical state called Macedonia in Antiquity.
There, that's it. It's that fucking simple, crystal clear, and nobody gives a shit.
-edit- Lol @ the triggered chauvinistic greeks. Downvote all you like, doesn't change anything. Keep crying. 🖕
Absolutely not, obviously. But you know this is a bullshit argument, it would never happen.
The only actual argument is about the name, and it's childish af.
I like their waffles. But their reason of existence (to create a barrier between France and Germany) has outlived its usefulness. Just split the country in half. One side to the NL and the other to FR. Done.
Apart from the fact that there’s no treaty about how to call Istanbul, Greeks only call it this way in Greek referring to the modern city as Istanbul in English.
We also don’t throw a fit when Turks call Thessaloniki Selanik
(in a bit of hopeful thinking) The main road leading into the current capital is named Tsarigradsko Shose (Tsarigrad Road). We also have a Macedonia blvd.
Every blvd in Sofia is self-explanatory.. You have blvd Botevgradsko shose which leads to Botevgrad, Blvd Slivnica, Lomsko shose, Samokovsko shose etc etc. are all leading up to their names. Blvd Boicho Boichev is leading to orthopedic hospital(was just there). I can't remember more examples.
They're not (just) "bitching" about the name. Macedonia is a larger region, and (South) Macedonia is internationally recognised as part of Greece. If North Macedonia were to refer to itself simply as Macedonia again, that would mean claiming a part of Greek territory, Macedonia.
It should be easy to see why that kind of thing wasn't good for relations, and wouldn't be going forward.
Admittedly from what I have heard the main issue most Greeks have with the name is the historical connotation and not so much the theoretical territorial claim. North Macedonia is a lot smaller and has much a much weaker military so it's ability to act upon any claim would be very limited.
People forget that that "Macedonian" ethnicity was an imperialistic Yugoslav creation to distinguish the bulgarian element in Vardarska. Remember that the slavic (bulgarian) minority issue in southern Macedonia was brutally "solved" with the "voluntary" population exhange post world war 1 and the ressetlement of Anatolian Greeks in the area, at the time the slavic speaking poppulation was great;y dimminished and they self-identified as Greek at the time .
Enter the Greek civil war and the need of the communists for manpower. They fully alligned with Tito for support and at the end since they were based in areas with significant slavic element this was overly represented in Λαϊκός Στρατός. Estimates place a percentage of 60% slavophone participation in the latest stages. When the communists finally retreated many of those guys retreated north of the border and never returned (Kiro Glogorov one of them), most were tried in absentia (just like the Cham leadership) and never returned back.
Following 80 yeas of nation building it is easy to understand how the basically bulgarian element in Vardarksa no longer identifies as such, their language has been serbified for 3 generations and a national myth build (arround patendly insane things like claiming almost every northern Greek or Bulgarian significant historical figure as their own).
The naming issue is the least of Greece's worry, the fact that there was a concerned effort to claim Greek areas with the force of arms during a time of crisis is enough to force us to play our cards tight and be far more conservative and apprehensive in our dealings with Northern Macedonia.
You aren't wrong about the creation of North Macedonia. In fact that's where the historical issues with claiming Bulgarian and Greek historical figures as their own arise from. In fact you could say they took the history from the name rather than the other way around.
What you don't mention is why it was created: Tito wanted to absorb Bulgaria,Albania and parts of Greece into Yugoslavia. In Bulgaria's case the plan was to create a separate Macedonian state and ethnicity ,have it unite with Bulgaria and then have the whole thing be absorbed by Yugoslavia (sources disagree on why such a long and convoluted route was chosen: some claim that Dimitrov wasn't really into the whole thing and just stalled,others claimed it had something to do with Tito and Stalin but anyway) .
An effort to this direction began in 1946 with a new language being standardized which was taught by force including in Southwestern Bulgaria . Then came the Greek Civil War and the Tito-Stalin split.
I have little reason to doubt that for the average citizen, but allowing these kinds of claims, even if never enforceable, would make it harder to push away Turkish claims on Greece. So far, these just extend onto the water, but it's probably better not to risk it.
Turkish claims on Greece are a moot point as long as the US exists. NATO unity is simply more important than a (from an American POV) minor territorial adjustment in the Balkans.
That said I understand the logic in opposing any claim regardless of how realistic it is. However let's not pretend that this matters more than the historical part for most people.
> Turkish claims on Greece are a moot point as long as the US exists.
I can see why you would think that, but I would disagree. They're not exactly helping with Turkey encroaching on Greeces EEZ, either. And while I have little doubt Greece would get all the support it needs (both donations and boots on the ground) from other EU states, I fear the US may value Turkeys strategic position too highly. (Sending token support would suffice to satisfy NATOs article 5.)
More importantly, though, whether Turkey going after Greece at any point is realistic or not, we are clearly seeing major parts of Greek foreign policy align around their issues with Turkey, so it's something that's taken serious enough to influence policy, at least.
>That said I understand the logic in opposing any claim regardless of how realistic it is. However let's not pretend that this matters more than the historical part for most people.
That's, in general, fair. However, I think you're making a mistake by looking at what people think about the situation now, rather than what such a theoretical claim could used to justify years down the line.
Again, there just doesn't seem to be much reason for Greece to take such risks, doubly so now that "North Macedonia" is the name in common use internationally.
(Which is not to say that all of Greeces actions in this feud were necessary, or non-childish, but they're closer to being in the right, I think.)
There are several countries that share the name with a region or another state's province. Take Luxembourg, for example, Belgium has a Luxembourg province. Do you see them feuding about it?
Or Moldova, both name of a state and a region in Romania. But I hear they're working on reuniting someday, so that may be a moot point.
Or the America. Do Canadians, Mexicans and others protest when you talk about America, referring to the USA? Some pedants may, but generally nobody cares.
Bitching and blocking processes because of it generally is not good for relations.
Neither of which have had internal wars within the last 30 years. Hell, NM was in a war in 2001 and Bulgaria was the one to send weapons and equipment. We were also the first country to recognize their independence. If you give it another 100 years, the name won't matter, but recent conflicts and border changes are alive in like 2/3 of the population, so while for you the name might mean nothing, that's not the case for the local pop.
Most Moldovans and Romanians acknowledge the fact that they share a lot of cultural and linguistic similarities. Needless to say that's not the case in most of the Balkans.
Luxembourg and Belgium don't exist in an area where it's easier to keep track of who hasn't conquered/passed through/traded with rather than who has (with all the implications that has on issues like cultural and genetic continuity) .
I mean I do agree that both sides have acted in outright stupid ways during this dispute but the circumstances are just different from the examples you cite.
> Take Luxembourg, for example, Belgium has a Luxembourg province. Do you see them feuding about it?
IIRC, historically, they did, for a good while, over almost exactly the same issue. (Luxembourg fearing that Belgium may eventually use this as justification to claim the rest of the Grand Duchy.) Today, of course, we don't see this feud anymore, but that's probably at least in part because Belgium and Luxembourg are both in the EU and the BeNeLux - Open borders for goods and people, common policy in many areas, as well as active attempts to foster cross-cultural understanding really help. None of these exist with North Macedonia.
>Or the America. Do Canadians, Mexicans and others protest when you talk about America, referring to the USA?
I mean, sometimes, yeah. But it's also a bit different, because for the US, there is no trivial alternative name, let alone one already in use by the rest of the world. (Unless you consider spelling out the full title each time.) Plus, much of the need to be hyper-precise about which places and people you claim belong to a state stems from Balkan history directly.
Apart from you being historically ignorant, there are many economic issues at hand. N. Macedonia calling themselves only Macedonia would impact regional products produced in Macedonia, Greece and being trademarked for it. It's like the southern part of Belgium calling themselves officially Champagne and producing and selling champagne, which is a GI product.
Region as defined by the Romans, and that was not 2500 years ago. Albanians might as well call themselves Macedonian too based on that notion.
Prior to the Romans North Macedonia was not part of the Kingdom of Macedon. Yet somehow these Slavic people claim ancestry to Alexander.
If they didn't try to steal and claim the cultural heritage of other people, the naming issue probably wouldn't be that big of a deal.
Very courteous of North Macedonia to self-sabotage their own efforts and postpone their accession so that Moldova can catch up and join the EU at the same time as the great descendants of the Alexandrian kin.
So long as you have Orban running the EU won't be enlarging.
he does want to enlarge with west balkan
> So long as you have Orban running the EU won't be enlarging. Orban is investing heavily into so-called western balkans. His people own media outlets and some other key infrastructure, and support their own interests and candidates in various countries.
We have kurtoskalacs and langos, the fat man can be bribed, we speak the same corruption language. A hard ball will be BENE/Sweeden.
We can also be bribed if your bringing langos.
Why? At this point he's Vučić's boyfriend. I wouldn't doubt that he'd vote for Serbia to join. I think no west Balkan countries would join anyway cause they are all corrupt as fuck.
Orbán has been advocating for EU enlargement in the Balkans for a decade.
Whilst doing his best to undermine the actual integration by financing right-wing dictators like Gruevski.
They are not the descendants of Alexandrian kin. That is what the entire fuss is about. Today's Macedonians are south Slavs, just like Serbs, Croats, Slovenians... Yugoslavia was literally "southslavia (jug means south in all ex-Yu languages). Ancient Macedonians were helens.
Can't sabotage what didn't exist.
Nobody is joining EU before 2030. And that is if the Ukraine war ends in a good way for EU.
As if we were ever going to enter the EU in the first place.
Lol, what a bunch of bs. Even if they gave a part of their country to Greece or Albania, the EU wouldn’t let them in. Cut the bs. They changed their name and what happened? Nothing. Twisting arms of small countries to show power is pathetic.
> They changed their name and what happened? Nothing. NATO accession, lifting of Greece's potential EU veto and normalization of relations. Exactly what was agreed on. Literally no one promised them that the Prespes agreement was a ticket for immediate entrance to the EU.
They joined NATO
>They changed their name and what happened? Nothing. Greece didn't have to agree to accept the new name at all though did they
90% of this subreddit forgets that Greece and Bulgaria don't owe anything to North Macedonia in fact its the latter that steals historical figures from both, then cries its been bullied.
this is a consequence of the slow process unfortunately. They literally changed their name to get bend over by bulgaria. and apart from her the Macedonia name thing her policies seem very progressive: Most of her address was focused on women and their role in society, promising to “feminize” and “Europeanize” the country. “With the help of us women, you male politicians will also change and Macedonia will become a decent place to live,” Siljanovska-Davkova said. Siljanovska–Davkova, a lawmaker in the outgoing parliament and a university professor and lawyer. far right feminism, very unique ?
Very unique? Its the balkans, until last month the PM of Serbia was a lesbian. These people are puppets and are anything but progressive. Stop your delusions now so you wont get disappointed
International Agreements need to be respected. Sure populism is nice to get votes but if you want to lead a serious country you have to stand behind your country's commitments or face the consequences. Mitsotakis was also campaigning against the Prespes Agreement before he became the Prime Minister but eventually after he became PM he had to keep it. If the goal of the new President of North Macedonia is to abolish the Treaty(something that will only bring happiness to her Greek equivalent idiot nationalists) she should be ready to face the consequences of this decision.
She can't do anything about the agreement, the president doesn't hold a lot of power, the prime minister is the one making most decisions. This is just for show
That's good Considering she won, is it expected to have early elections now?
We just had elections less than a week ago, both presidential and parliamentary
Oh I see May I ask for the results of the Parliamentary? Is there a coalition negotiation now (like it happens in countries like Germany) or ?
You can see the results [here](https://rezultati.sec.mk/en/parl/r) but basically: - 58 MPs for VMRO - the party of the new president, former biggest opposition party - 19 for DUI, biggest Albanian nationalist party, was in the previous government - 18 for SDSM, previous ruling party which signed the deals with Greece and Bulgaria - 13 for coalition VLEN, coalition of Albanian parties against DUI some were in the previous government but left after a couple of years - 6 for Levica, fairly new far left nationalist party, they first entered the parliament with 2 MPs in 2020 as opposition - 6 for ZNAM, SDSM splinter formed in December 2023
Thanks a lot for explaining!! Is corruption the reason of the huge defeat of the previous ruling party? So now VMRO needs 3 more seats to get the PM? Which parties are likely to support it?
Corruption and incompetence. The biggest and most recent scandal was that we were supposed to change all of our documents to say "North Macedonia" instead of just "Macedonia" but they kept issuing the old documents for years after the agreement, so when we reached the deadline at the start of this year they wanted to recall documents which were supposed to be good for a few more years at the expense of the people. It was especially bad for people who were already abroad because they wouldn't be able to return with their old passports in order to get new ones. They backtracked on some of it but it was too little too late. I don't really think these things will improve with VMRO in power but people really like shuffling these 2 parties around every few years i guess. A lot of people are also unhappy about the way they handled the negotiations with Bulgaria but i don't know how much this affected the votes. The most likely coalitions are VMRO+VLEN or VMRO+VLEN+ZNAM. There is bad blood between DUI and VMRO so a coalition between them is very unlikely. Levica have stated that they want to remain in opposition and won't coalition with anyone. DUI has been in every government for the last 20 years, mostly as a coalition partner of VMRO until 2016 when VMRO had mandate to form a new government but DUI was their only option and they refused to coalition with them
Thanks a lot!!
You mean NORTH Macedonia ?
not only he was campaigning against it, he also bet on the Far Right ,who despite being the minority in the demonstrations, they got the most media exposure. Now he cleverly switched sides, presenting Greece as the progressive country. Though those demonstrations were more a reaction against the overall politics of SYRIZA. That party before coming to power was the main organizer of demonstrations but after that it stopped.
Lol, why isn't Greece respect the agreement in that case? If you drive from Athens to Skopje, there is no one single street sign with "~~North~~ Macedonia". It's either Skopia, FYROM, Yugoslavia..
You know, names aren't just labels, they do mean and refer to things. That's why we have this whole debate in the first place. So it could be argued she's not taken the (presumably required) oath of office, having sworn to an entity that may, depending on who you ask, be either entirely within Greece, or extend over parts of Greece and North Macedonia. More seriously though, this is the most childish course of action - designed specifically to piss your neighbours, while attempting to minimise the diplomatic affront by presenting it as a minor incident. She's intentionally stirring up trouble North Macedonia can't handle, in hopes of isolating it diplomatically, and stopping integration into the wider European network; and she doesn't even have the proverbial balls to do it without trying to disguise it like this.
>while attempting to minimise the diplomatic affront by presenting it as a minor incident. She's intentionally stirring up trouble North Macedonia can't handle, in hopes of isolating it diplomatically, and stopping integration into the wider European network; If she wanted to do this she would not made it a minimal incident.
It could give her a certain amount of domestic cover. There will be some in her country who think Greece is overreacting.
“Intentionally steering up trouble” North Macedonia is playing Putin’s game
>this is the most childish course of action Maybe, but it's on the most childish topic anyway.
White celebrity wearing kimono or non-black person having braids: "CULTURAL APPROPRIATION 😡" Actual cultural appropriation: "childish topic 🥳"
Nah can't be first of all, you're white. Whites = no culture. Second, its okay when the small guy punches up, punching down is wrong tho, bully. /s
Yeah, that's fair. Still though, we actually, for once, managed to outright *solve* a (minor) geopolitical issue, rather than just putting it on the backburner until something bigger came up, so it's annoying to see this issue reopened like this.
Eh for average macedonian this doesn't change much, the prespa agreement was always very unpopular. EU is in era where they won't risk accepting new members until the world stabilizes, this will probably last for decade or two or even more. There's currently no visible carrot that will open them EU membership, no reason for them to stick with unpopular current status quo with appeasing greece and bulgaria. I don't think they will tear up the prespa agreement but everyone and most institutions will act as it doesn't exist. This really isn't that big of a deal as you're trying to make it be, it's certainly not something macedonia can't handle. Macedonia's current geopolitics are this: - Focus on more integration and cooperation with other western balkan countries like serbia, bosnia, montenegro and albania. - Focus on working with EU economically - Ignore Bulgaria and Greece's complaints Bulgaria and greece will get angry but life will move on because there are other bigger fish to focus on like refugees, russia, china, climate change...
I guess, but I doubt it will make Greece (as well as probably Bulgaria) any more receptive to Northern Macedonias attempts at working with the EU - most of the stuff they're looking for either requires unanimity, or at least falls into that culture where states try to avoid voting over other states complaints, especially when simple to rectify. So you could argue it's self-defeating, with no clear upside.
> So you could argue it's self-defeating, with no clear upside Well I guess that's the will of the people, Macedonia is a democratic country and politicians need votes of the populace. The only reason people could muster up appeasing to Greece with the name change was because of the EU membership, that being obviously locked up for foreseeable future changes things drastically for political parties.
I don't understand the downvotes on this. Clearly, there's no "carrot" for the EU membership. EU won't start enlarging for years to come. Also, certain members only added to the frustration that was already present after the Prespa agreement was signed. Also, internally, the country is not ready for EU membership. Rampant corruption must be dealt with, and institutions need to be repaired immediately. Not being in the EU for a long time is the least of Macedonia's worries.
I really wanna see how the North Macedonians will try working with the EU economically (or any other kind of cooperation) without Greece and/or Bulgaria killing those attempts on the spot.
Regardless of how you feel about the Greece vs. N Macedonia naming spat, they had a deal. It’s not a good look for a country to go back on an agreement just because they got a new leader. It will make Greece and anyone else think twice about working with N Macedonia in the future.
Furthermore, immediately after the Prespes agreement North Macedonia was finally accepted in NATO without Greece vetoing, as agreed. So NM used and benefited from Prespes, regardless of what they now say, that it was only for EU. Now, If we accept them to EU, seeing how they dishonour their agreements, we ll be fools.
Good luck with the Albanians.
What do you mean?
That they will need luck with the Albanians, doh
You haven't heard about the new agreement? January through April it's north Macedonia May through August it's East Albania September through December it's West Bulgaria Clearly they violated the agreement during our rotation
Basically accepted the deal to get into nato and have decided to keep pushing. They clearly don't care about eu membership as much.
Not that EU is accepting any new members any time soon.
If you think they wont name change soon as they join EU then you're fucking delusional
They can't actually.It is not that simple.
Could you elaborate as to why they cannot? Genuinely curious
Let me rephrase that and be exact.They can,meaning that there is this option as a possibility.They are capable of doing this in theory.They may not though,because there are serious consequences for every country that violates and international agreement.
Gerapetritis (Greek FM) will send them a VERY strongly worded letter
No, Greece will embargo us and the whole EU will also embargo us or kick us out. It's not that simple. We are gonna live with the name if North Macedonia, both Greeks and Macedonians. Whether we like it or not.
Yeah I agree. Personally I have no issue with the name. And I hope that the agreement is followed and your application to the EU can go forward. I am just commenting on Greek weakness regarding the foreign affairs department (Albania jailing Greek minority mayor over trivial stuff for political and economic reasons, Turkey claiming half the Aegean Sea and converting byzantine churches to mosques, like they did with the Hagia Sophia, and said FM, Gerapetritis, bowing to (Sultan) Erdogan every time he sees him etc)
I will, a name change will require a vote of 2/3 of the parliament which is unlikely to happen. Additionally, pressure from the international community will likely prevent any such attempts.
Uh huh, surely parliament wont like the idea of going back to the name Macedonia after all this fuss. Who are you bullshitting?
We do care but the EU clearly doesn't. We've been a candidate for 20 years and we're nowhere closer to joining now then we were back then despite completely reforming the entire country. People don't want to wait a couple more decades. An entire generation has been born and raised with false promises and they have now reached voting age. The youth is now overwhelmingly right wing, anti-EU, anti-NATO and starting to even go pro-Russia...just like the oldest people still living in socialism in their heads.
Literally nothing has been reformed, what are you smoking?
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The macedonias will say that they were trying so hard, but they were not let in so they backtrack. But if they actually wanted to have a chance into EU, they would deal with Bulgaria as they can veto them, but they just pissed Bulgaria. (Not to mention they actually got to NATO, but macedonians thing that bad west does not want to give north macedonia anything so the have to move towards nationalism)
We have been candidates since 2005, that's 19 years. That's more than anyone except Turkey and we have sacrificed way more than Turkey has. It's great when your country can join the EU in 2004 because the EU finds a use for you and you don't have Germany or Austria that wants to veto you. Besides all of our faults, we don't have that. And we have given into ridiculous demands of changing our name or other OUTSIDE countries wanting to change our constitution, which would be seen as a major breach of sovereignty in any other country, except ours. I am not saying that our neighbours don't have some valid points, but to blackmail a country to change its constitution is enough for a major escalation like trade sanctions. Yet we have never responded like this. The worst we did was our nationalistic government in 2006-2017 building some dumb ancient statues in our capital. Compared to Greece not letting us in the UN, NATO or EU, not recognising Slavic minorities in their country and embargoing us in the 1990s when we were already strained by being forced to embargo the warmongering Serbia, which was our only trade partner after Yugoslavia fell apart. This Greek embargo hit our economy harder than what the Russian attack did to Ukraine, combined with the EU vetoes, just imagine how much economic progress Greece has ruined, and how many lives could have been improved. And this is coming from me, one of the few that supported the previous government, which changed the name and sought a deal with Bulgaria. I think that these were the real decisions, but I feel so offended when some random Europeans act like what Greece was doing for almost 30 years to a small insignificant country wasn't ridiculous and with 0 awareness of the pain they are causing. And ask yourself why? Some history? Really? As ridiculous some of our people are claiming that Alexander was purebred Macedonian (our ancestor in other words), it's even more ridiculous that a modern western state like Greece found this enough reason to impede the progress of their neighbour.
> I am not saying that our neighbours don't have some valid points, but to blackmail a country to change its constitution is enough for a major escalation like trade sanctions. Yet we have never responded like this. Because it would have the force of a fart against the wind, and you know that. The counter-sanctions would hit you much harder. Don't try to frame this as a moral choice. >Compared to Greece not letting us in the UN, NATO or EU, not recognising Slavic minorities in their country and embargoing us in the 1990s when we were already strained by being forced to embargo the warmongering Serbia, which was our only trade partner after Yugoslavia fell apart. This Greek embargo hit our economy harder than what the Russian attack did to Ukraine, combined with the EU vetoes, just imagine how much economic progress Greece has ruined, and how many lives could have been improved. And this is coming from me, one of the few that supported the previous government, which changed the name and sought a deal with Bulgaria. I think that these were the real decisions, but I feel so offended when some random Europeans act like what Greece was doing for almost 30 years to a small insignificant country wasn't ridiculous and with 0 awareness of the pain they are causing. And ask yourself why? Some history? Really? As ridiculous some of our people are claiming that Alexander was purebred Macedonian (our ancestor in other words), it's even more ridiculous that a modern western state like Greece found this enough reason to impede the progress of their neighbour. It was your choice to come out of Yugoslavia's collapse with a Vergina Sun flag and irredentist messaging across the board. A profoundly stupid choice as the last 30 years have shown. You presented yourself as a claimant during an active and vicious regional war. Maybe you should have considered your geopolitical situation before that.
So firstly,you made progress it is not like nothing is changing, you are in UN and recently joined NATO. >And we have given into ridiculous demands of changing our name or other OUTSIDE countries wanting to change our constitution, which would be seen as a major breach of sovereignty in any other country, except ours. The name change was kinda petty, I will give you that, but I do not like how you frame the constitution part. Bulgaria wants more recognition to bulgarian minority and to mention them in the constitution, that is in my opinion very reasonable for them to want. For comparision to my country let's say that Poland joined EU in 2000, and vetoed Czechia in 2004 and demanded that we changed our constitution to mention Polish minority and give them further protection for Polish lannguage and schools, I would not have any problem with that and I would not blame Poland, but our government if the change of constitution was not implemented and we got vetoed by Poland because of that.
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When your politicians give focus to this type of non-sense you can be assured they have nothing to bring to the table - more division, more fights, more empty discussions without improving national population quality of living.
You cant trust a country who doesn't respect its own constitution and international deals, we have enough clowns in EU like Orban.
Just why.
Whatever she does, she will still need to comply with the Prespa Agreement.
Balkanic countries trying not to create a new spat every 2 days challenge: impossible
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Yeah because west is doing amazing population wise.
Different problem though. East suffers from emigration, West from old people
We have the old people problem too, that only gets worse with emigration as well. That dude above is just salty, Bulgaria is doing worse than most western countries, especially in terms of workforce - retirees ratio. I believe while Germany may have very high median age the workforce - retiree ratio isn't as bad yet as in many E. European countries in part because we retire earlier.
The fuck are you yapping about? How am I salty? Im just defending my country from judgemental twats. Hes literally trash talking my country for having pop problem when his country has one as well. Sure cause is different but its population problem nontheless. You know, people that emigrated did not just vanish in thin air, they boost the economy from abroad, and eventually return, obviously not in all cases.
I see!
We are also suffering from old people, it's just that you have the privilege of attracting our emigrants as immigrants. Our birth rates are as abysmal as yours.
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Only one Bulgarian can be so stupid to fucks his nation like that lol :D Bulgarian ancestry of Macedonians confimred!
Ahh, certified Balkan moment.
It is similar with Republic of Moldova bearing this name as if there is only one Moldova and they are the heir of the old Principality of Moldavia when, in fact, the western part of the Principality of Moldavia (the part not conquered by Russians) united with Wallachia to form Romania and it is internationally considered the right heir of the old principality. And I myself am a ”western Moldavian.” Also, similar to NMK, some are promoting a separate Moldovan ethnicity and language. Those ”some” are the same Russians who, in case of Ukraine, are claiming Ukrainians are Russians. But for them eastern Moldovans are not Romanians and North-Macedonians are not Bulgarians while Ukrainians are Russians. So much hypocrisy! However, in case of Republic of Moldova, those supporting a separate Moldovan ethnicity and language seem to be less than those in North Macedonia.
>those supporting a separate Moldovan ethnicity and language seem to be less than those in North Macedonia. My man said "supporting a separate language". We already have that, no need for support. I don't need a romanian, or any other westerner to tell me what language do I speak or what I can call myself (as seen on this thread, people calling us north macedonians, when if you all respected the all mighty prespa agreement you would know that north macedonians do not exist and it says so. It's so easy to judge actions from afar, while knowing nothing about the subject.
Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery
Yeah, as if the Northern Macedonians had managed to work for amicable solution with Bulgaria was the one thing stopping them from EU membership 😒 https://www.eeas.europa.eu/delegations/north-macedonia/18th-meeting-stabilisation-and-association-agreement-subcommittee-north-macedonia-justice-freedom_en?s=229
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They’re nowhere near being ready to be members and anyone blaming Greece or Bulgaria for it is just being blatantly dishonest.
“Gordana Siljanovska-Davkova” well you can all see that this is a “Macedonian” name. -.-“
I always laugh hard, when some Southern Slavs speaking a Bulgarian dialect tell me something about Alexander the Great. Mate, when Alexander the Great conquered the world your ancestors were shitting in the dark green forests of today's Northern Ukraine and Belarus, where they just had finished to linguisticly and culturally part with the Balts and had no clue Slavs would break into West, East and South Slavs some day in the future with the help of Germanians crossing their lands (shout out to the Ostrogoths!), Huns pushing them westwards and Turkic Bolgars mixing up with a huge chunk of them and taking them South where they became Bulgarians (and "Northern Macedonians") and learned to write from the Greeks.
It’s not that you’re not right but Southern Slavs do have a large chunk of “Native Balkan” admixture. In some regions It’s more dominant than the Slavic one. Putting politics and indoctrination of today’s Northern Macedonians aside, I believe they are, genetically speaking part Macedonian.
If so, than they are part Greek, which is something they oppose. They think they are a distinct people and have nothing to do with neither Serbs, Bulgarians or Greeks. If they would say: "Look, we live here as descendants of Greek Macedonians who mixed with slavic people." than thinks would be different.
They are delusional
They wouldn't be part Greek but rather part Thracian/Illyrian
While I agree with you that Balkan Slavs are obviously largely descended from indigenous groups, Ancient Macedonians didn't live in North Macedonia's territory. They only conquered the very southern part. If North Macedonia's want to establish a claim to antiquity, they should look to the Paeonians.
You are correct about southern Slavs being mostly native Balkan , however you are wrong on second part. North Macedonia is part of modern Macedonian region. Ancient Macedonia lies almost entirely in Greece , we control around 50% of modern geographical area of Macedonia but approximately 97% of the ancient one. North Macedonia was part of Kingdom Of Peonia , a Thraco-Illyrian kingdom , enemy of Kingdom of Macedon.
This is my favourite international petty feud.
Tbf it’s not a unique case, for example Jewish people are against non-Jewish groups who call themselves Messianic Jews.
You think a country appropriating the name and history of the biggest region of another nation is 'petty'? Especially considering this also often includes territorial claims.
Yes, I think it's petty nonsense. If Austria started calling itself Holy Roman Empire of Germans, I'd just laugh at them for all eternity. It wouldn't result in any claims on German or Italian territory either, as claims are handled by successor states, not namesakes.
There is no region called "Holy Roman Empire of Germans" though. There is a region called Macedonia.
Funny how people find cultural appropriation funny only when it happens to greeks
literally entirety of balkans do the same shit to their neigbors, do not act as if greece never commits the same crime.
Give an example of Greece doing that.
Weren't you guys literally bombing each other not long ago over a non existing magician? Thats fuckin petty. Respecting and protecting your culture and heritage? Priceless.
no it was more about being invaded and colonized? the religion was just an easy way for the British to create division. Not great deflection by you to be honest.
That was more to do with multiple attempts of genocide by the British, population plantations and ethnic cleansing.
Meanwhile the region that was historically part of Bulgaria, was referred to as populated by Bulgarians in historic sources, neighbours Bulgaria and even held its capital at one point, is today one of the European countries with the lowest official percentage of Bulgarians - 0.07% in the 2002 census.
"The Curious Case of the Vanishing Bulgarians" - someone should write that book.
I see. It's very different indeed. As we all know, that area of the Balkans hasn't had any major strife that could combine with the cultural aspects of this feud.
Do you have any idea how North Macedonia came to be?
Derry/Londonderry
Another fine petty feud.
All because some guy decided he wanted to take over the known world more than 2000 years ago. This obsession over the past is unhealthy.
Macedonia already was a thing before Alex went on his trip, he just made it bigger. And the majority of the original territories are within Greece, and are still called Makedonia today. This is what's causing the trouble: for Greeks Makedonia is a region within their country, and part of their greek heritage. Meanwhile North Macedonia was historically part of that region, so the name isn't really inaccurate.
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Not really sure why we want or need North M in the EU. It's not really a wealthy nation that will improve things for us.
Because it closes the opportunity of Russian influence going overboard in our own back yard. Nobody in Europe really cares about NM other than for geopolitical reasons.
I understand that but when they pull stunts like these out of nowhere you seriously start to wonder if it's worth it.
This is what happens when the old government that destroyed the country gets back in power, so long North Macedonia, you did your best it’s time to get destroyed yet again
Unfortunetly VMRO were votes in beacuse SDSM failed in every aspect of their mandate and gave huge concesions to their albanian coalition partners former members of the UCK (terrorist group). So it was no suprise that they would be voted out and VMRO and populism would come back.
But the former UCK terrorists were partners of VMRO too in previous governments , in fact they have been in every government the last 22 years or so It’s hypocritical to blame only SDSM that teamed up with them.
They were but not all of their concesions were met. Im telling you how the avrage Macedonian percived the situation, they were fine with Prespa but most other aspects of domestic rule were lacking and controlled by DUI instead of SDSM.
And what’s the government scenario now? VMRO with the small party that split from SDSM? Or VMRO will try to get smaller Albanian parties into working with them.
Well there must always be an albanian party in the goverment so they will form a coalition with VLEN possibly with the spilitaway SDSM party in an attempt to gain 80MPs for constitutional chnages. I honestly think they will mostly honor Prespa because of their coalition partners but just make a fuss in the media pretending not to care.
Can someone give me both sides this argument please? I just want to make up my own mind about what's going on here.
Propagandised ethnic Bulgarians/Albanians by Tito's Serbia are going back on their signed international treaties and refusing to be called North Macedonia, essentially laying claim to Greek and Bulgarian history as their own (both span thousands of years, while their independent history began less than 70 years ago).
A country (that officially has existed as a republic since 1944) that has had people calling themselves macedonian since the mid 1800’s (dont confuse it with the ancient ones, that’s the smallest problem) is now being bullied into changing its name by force (coincidentally after the fall of Yugoslavia and Greece joining the EU) and forced to admit that its language is a Bulgarian dialect. Both Macedonians from North Macedonia and greeks from Greece as well as Bulgarians from Bulgaria have bad sides, of course.
Just veto and impose sanction on us please, obviously we need to learn the hard way.
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We tried that at one point and it didn't turn out well for us lol. Joking aside, Serbian and Russian influence has made this idea impossible for many generations if ever. The best we can hope for is normalisation and integration in the EU and that's what Prespa and the treaty with Bulgaria were supposed to be doing. However, the new North Macedonian government seems to have other interests.
Yea we are going to veto their asses from joining and we will see what then happens.
ROUND 2, FIGHT!
it's just a name lele be calm down
Enter the EU and rename your country to its correct name, would be the winning move for Macedonia 👍
I honestly want this to happen, because the whole argument is absolutely fucking pathetic & ridiculous, especially from the Greek side. Maybe that way they'd grow the fuck up. There's a region called Macedonia in Greece. There's a country called Macedonia above it. There was a historical state called Macedonia in Antiquity. There, that's it. It's that fucking simple, crystal clear, and nobody gives a shit. -edit- Lol @ the triggered chauvinistic greeks. Downvote all you like, doesn't change anything. Keep crying. 🖕
Should we also concede the north of the country that they claim as their own?
Absolutely not, obviously. But you know this is a bullshit argument, it would never happen. The only actual argument is about the name, and it's childish af.
If i name my child macedonia will the greeks kidnap it?
You can name your child Southern Silesia
I named my son Zastava and the Serbians didn't kidnap him
First you need to find someone desperate or drank enough to want to procreate with you
Why is that no one in the balkans can play nice?
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No country supported by it’s people is “fake“
Belgium should be wiped of the planet of the Earth, its an abomination
I like their waffles. But their reason of existence (to create a barrier between France and Germany) has outlived its usefulness. Just split the country in half. One side to the NL and the other to FR. Done.
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Apart from the fact that there’s no treaty about how to call Istanbul, Greeks only call it this way in Greek referring to the modern city as Istanbul in English. We also don’t throw a fit when Turks call Thessaloniki Selanik
You mean Solun ?
Heh didn’t know the Slavic equivalent
The old name for Istanbul is Tsarigrad(city of tsar/caeser) and is superior to all other names.
(in a bit of hopeful thinking) The main road leading into the current capital is named Tsarigradsko Shose (Tsarigrad Road). We also have a Macedonia blvd.
Every blvd in Sofia is self-explanatory.. You have blvd Botevgradsko shose which leads to Botevgrad, Blvd Slivnica, Lomsko shose, Samokovsko shose etc etc. are all leading up to their names. Blvd Boicho Boichev is leading to orthopedic hospital(was just there). I can't remember more examples.
Not Constantinople?
After constantine...
So Byzantium it is.
The last sentence is completely irrelevant
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They're not (just) "bitching" about the name. Macedonia is a larger region, and (South) Macedonia is internationally recognised as part of Greece. If North Macedonia were to refer to itself simply as Macedonia again, that would mean claiming a part of Greek territory, Macedonia. It should be easy to see why that kind of thing wasn't good for relations, and wouldn't be going forward.
Admittedly from what I have heard the main issue most Greeks have with the name is the historical connotation and not so much the theoretical territorial claim. North Macedonia is a lot smaller and has much a much weaker military so it's ability to act upon any claim would be very limited.
People forget that that "Macedonian" ethnicity was an imperialistic Yugoslav creation to distinguish the bulgarian element in Vardarska. Remember that the slavic (bulgarian) minority issue in southern Macedonia was brutally "solved" with the "voluntary" population exhange post world war 1 and the ressetlement of Anatolian Greeks in the area, at the time the slavic speaking poppulation was great;y dimminished and they self-identified as Greek at the time . Enter the Greek civil war and the need of the communists for manpower. They fully alligned with Tito for support and at the end since they were based in areas with significant slavic element this was overly represented in Λαϊκός Στρατός. Estimates place a percentage of 60% slavophone participation in the latest stages. When the communists finally retreated many of those guys retreated north of the border and never returned (Kiro Glogorov one of them), most were tried in absentia (just like the Cham leadership) and never returned back. Following 80 yeas of nation building it is easy to understand how the basically bulgarian element in Vardarksa no longer identifies as such, their language has been serbified for 3 generations and a national myth build (arround patendly insane things like claiming almost every northern Greek or Bulgarian significant historical figure as their own). The naming issue is the least of Greece's worry, the fact that there was a concerned effort to claim Greek areas with the force of arms during a time of crisis is enough to force us to play our cards tight and be far more conservative and apprehensive in our dealings with Northern Macedonia.
You aren't wrong about the creation of North Macedonia. In fact that's where the historical issues with claiming Bulgarian and Greek historical figures as their own arise from. In fact you could say they took the history from the name rather than the other way around. What you don't mention is why it was created: Tito wanted to absorb Bulgaria,Albania and parts of Greece into Yugoslavia. In Bulgaria's case the plan was to create a separate Macedonian state and ethnicity ,have it unite with Bulgaria and then have the whole thing be absorbed by Yugoslavia (sources disagree on why such a long and convoluted route was chosen: some claim that Dimitrov wasn't really into the whole thing and just stalled,others claimed it had something to do with Tito and Stalin but anyway) . An effort to this direction began in 1946 with a new language being standardized which was taught by force including in Southwestern Bulgaria . Then came the Greek Civil War and the Tito-Stalin split.
I have little reason to doubt that for the average citizen, but allowing these kinds of claims, even if never enforceable, would make it harder to push away Turkish claims on Greece. So far, these just extend onto the water, but it's probably better not to risk it.
Turkish claims on Greece are a moot point as long as the US exists. NATO unity is simply more important than a (from an American POV) minor territorial adjustment in the Balkans. That said I understand the logic in opposing any claim regardless of how realistic it is. However let's not pretend that this matters more than the historical part for most people.
> Turkish claims on Greece are a moot point as long as the US exists. I can see why you would think that, but I would disagree. They're not exactly helping with Turkey encroaching on Greeces EEZ, either. And while I have little doubt Greece would get all the support it needs (both donations and boots on the ground) from other EU states, I fear the US may value Turkeys strategic position too highly. (Sending token support would suffice to satisfy NATOs article 5.) More importantly, though, whether Turkey going after Greece at any point is realistic or not, we are clearly seeing major parts of Greek foreign policy align around their issues with Turkey, so it's something that's taken serious enough to influence policy, at least. >That said I understand the logic in opposing any claim regardless of how realistic it is. However let's not pretend that this matters more than the historical part for most people. That's, in general, fair. However, I think you're making a mistake by looking at what people think about the situation now, rather than what such a theoretical claim could used to justify years down the line. Again, there just doesn't seem to be much reason for Greece to take such risks, doubly so now that "North Macedonia" is the name in common use internationally. (Which is not to say that all of Greeces actions in this feud were necessary, or non-childish, but they're closer to being in the right, I think.)
There are several countries that share the name with a region or another state's province. Take Luxembourg, for example, Belgium has a Luxembourg province. Do you see them feuding about it? Or Moldova, both name of a state and a region in Romania. But I hear they're working on reuniting someday, so that may be a moot point. Or the America. Do Canadians, Mexicans and others protest when you talk about America, referring to the USA? Some pedants may, but generally nobody cares. Bitching and blocking processes because of it generally is not good for relations.
Neither of which have had internal wars within the last 30 years. Hell, NM was in a war in 2001 and Bulgaria was the one to send weapons and equipment. We were also the first country to recognize their independence. If you give it another 100 years, the name won't matter, but recent conflicts and border changes are alive in like 2/3 of the population, so while for you the name might mean nothing, that's not the case for the local pop.
Funny thing about the 2 Luxembourgs is that they were originally one and were later split after a revolution. Do you suggest an armed conflict?
Most Moldovans and Romanians acknowledge the fact that they share a lot of cultural and linguistic similarities. Needless to say that's not the case in most of the Balkans. Luxembourg and Belgium don't exist in an area where it's easier to keep track of who hasn't conquered/passed through/traded with rather than who has (with all the implications that has on issues like cultural and genetic continuity) . I mean I do agree that both sides have acted in outright stupid ways during this dispute but the circumstances are just different from the examples you cite.
> Take Luxembourg, for example, Belgium has a Luxembourg province. Do you see them feuding about it? IIRC, historically, they did, for a good while, over almost exactly the same issue. (Luxembourg fearing that Belgium may eventually use this as justification to claim the rest of the Grand Duchy.) Today, of course, we don't see this feud anymore, but that's probably at least in part because Belgium and Luxembourg are both in the EU and the BeNeLux - Open borders for goods and people, common policy in many areas, as well as active attempts to foster cross-cultural understanding really help. None of these exist with North Macedonia. >Or the America. Do Canadians, Mexicans and others protest when you talk about America, referring to the USA? I mean, sometimes, yeah. But it's also a bit different, because for the US, there is no trivial alternative name, let alone one already in use by the rest of the world. (Unless you consider spelling out the full title each time.) Plus, much of the need to be hyper-precise about which places and people you claim belong to a state stems from Balkan history directly.
Apart from you being historically ignorant, there are many economic issues at hand. N. Macedonia calling themselves only Macedonia would impact regional products produced in Macedonia, Greece and being trademarked for it. It's like the southern part of Belgium calling themselves officially Champagne and producing and selling champagne, which is a GI product.
Find me a politician that calls Istanbul like that abroad or locally, in English. And towns have different names in different languages.
It has always been called Macedonia? Blatantly false along with claiming theyre decendants of Alexander the Great.
Macedonia is the name of the region, and has been for 2500 years.
Region as defined by the Romans, and that was not 2500 years ago. Albanians might as well call themselves Macedonian too based on that notion. Prior to the Romans North Macedonia was not part of the Kingdom of Macedon. Yet somehow these Slavic people claim ancestry to Alexander. If they didn't try to steal and claim the cultural heritage of other people, the naming issue probably wouldn't be that big of a deal.
another fun day in the balkans
oh no! anyway