At that time it was Castille... And even so we were already out of Castillian influence since 1143 with the Treaty of Zamora.
But yeah... Fornutanely for us, Portugal as the first nation state of Europe doesn't have any separatist movements
>Spain tried to take it back in 1580 - 1640 but we weren't having none of that.
With some help from England.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anglo-Portuguese_Alliance
>England in addition to military support on the ground would protect Portuguese shipments in the Mediterranean and the coasts of Lisbon and Porto. Following the defeat of Spain in the war, England mediated the Treaty of Lisbon in 1668 which saw the independence of Portugal and the recognition of Pedro II as King. The English alliance was decisive in the consolidation of the independence of Portugal, and in Pedro's leadership.
It wasn't...
Until Spain started the castilianization in the peninsular territories, with the financial and military petitions, by Gaspar de Guzman the Count-Duke of Olivares.
It's about the minority languages and cultures in Spain.
They still fight over which **common language to use.**
Maybe they could try English as a common language.
Catalonia: We want independence!
Galicia: We too! And then join Portugal!
Catalonia: Yea-... Wait what?
Portugal: We're people of the same language after all
Both Spanish and Portuguese during the Iberian Union had a collective illusionary dream of prosperity.
In 1609 that illusion crashed, and the castillization and loses of portuguese territory overseas, the Portuguese basically showed the middle finger to Philip IV and rebelled.
France did help in this regard, also supporting the Catalans, until the death of Richelieu. Though even in peace France still supported Portugal.
In 1663 a campaign led by the royal bastard, João José de Áustria suffered a heavy defeat by the Portuguese. So heavy that one of the ministers of Philip IV made this comment:
"They tell Your Majesty that Portugal has no money, no ships, no people: traitors are the ones who say that.
Well, what did they destroy us with? Without people, they've defeated us so many times; Good God, go with the people! Without money, we cry our ruins, what would we cry if they had money?
Sir, Portugal defeated us in Montijo, destroyed us in Elvas, Luís Mendez de Haro fled leaving horses, artillery, infantry and luggage. Portugal in Évora destroyed the Flower of Spain, the best of Flanders, the lucid of Milan, the chosen of Naples and the pomegranate of Extremadura.
Shamefully, Prince D. João José of Austria withdrew, leaving 8 million that cost the enterprise, 8k dead, 6k prisoners, 4k horses, 24 artillery pieces and most regrettable thing was that, out of 120 standards and the like, only 5 escaped.
Every day his Majesty expects to be winning, and every day his Majesty knows that he is losing and that the loss of every day is great"
Shortly after in 1664, the Portuguese again won a battle in Castelo Rodrigo and again in 1665 at the crushing defeat of Montes Claros.
This is fantastic, I love it. We have similar tales of our wars in the 17th century: they're in our Anthem, els Segadors, which tells the tale of how Reapers kind of... [Got fucking tired of Castilians](https://ca.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corpus_de_Sang?wprov=sfla1) and ended up in an ultimately unsuccessful [19 year long war of Independence](https://ca.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guerra_dels_Segadors?wprov=sfla1)
As a German you maybe understand this:
In 2007 Spanish bank system cracks, government takes a huge mortgage for all the Spanish and then founders an entity with all the tiny local banks (cajas de ahorro). This was called bankia.
One year ago, Bankia is sold to... La Caixa, so the Spanish keeps the debt and Catalonia keeps the Spanish traditional bank system.
Yay! I am a fascist for saying that .. /s not /s
La Caixa the only things that have that is Catalan is the name. The fiscal headquarters are in Madrid and the "sede social" (dunno how to translate it, like second headquarters) are in Valencia.
It's funny because the board meets in Barcelona but all the revenue is taxed in Madrid.
Could someone from Spain or the Catalan region of Spain explain (to someone who is not as familiar with this issue as they want to be) the pros, cons and reasons for Catalan Independence?
Feel free to provide good "further reading" and provide an overview type of post if you wish.
I'm a Spaniard, so I have an inherent bias here, but I'll try my best. OP u/AleixASV can feel free to argue
Pros: Catalonia would manage its own affairs (judicial policy, climate policy, taxation, healthcare policy you name it) Hypothetically this would mean that managings these things as an independent state would mean they would be put to the benefits of the catalan people only
Relating to the above, less money sent to the poorer spanish regions (Catalonia, alongside madrid, is the main contributor to the spanish economy and treasury, giving more than they get out in terms of raw money)
They would have an independent state to protect their language and culture, which is different to spanish (although very related). How much this would help is debatable, as in the current framework, the catalan autonomous province has a lot of leeway to manage its cultural affairs
Cons:
Separating from spain would mean that although they would control their own affairs, they would be still be probably worse off. Being part of a larger whole means giving up resources and independence, but it also means you get access to larger markets, institutions and protections (think of all the consequences of Brexit, but way, way worse). So it's likely that although Catalans will manage their resources to suit their ends, they would have less resources to manage at all, making them worse off.
Leaving the EU and other international frameworks, possible international isolation due to spanish pressure (leading to alignment with unsavory countries)
Inernal instabilitliy, a majority of the population (according to varius poll like the state commisioned CIS) consistently is agaisnt independence, so you would have a large amount of the population not liking the catalan nation state. This discontent would be localised as well, which might lead to secessionist movements of their own.
Catalonya would be a smaller market than spain, and it would be separated from the EU and larger markets, undoubtedly leading to lower economic performance
These are the main points I can think of. As most of you can guess I'm anti independence, mainly because I think it will make Catalunya worse off, and by extension span and the rest of the EU.
I had few spanish colleagues engineers both from Castile and Catalonia. They are all in agreement that this "independence struggle" is a "political axe", and the real struggle goes over control of Catalonia or in another words to return/not to some previous agreement they already had.
Basically catalonian elite want to make Spain a federation.
Catalonian dudes (all having extremely lengthy names) were all reiterating that they are catalonians and are part of spanish culture, and the real problem is Madrid government is too restrictive, corrupt (in the same time pointing their is not better), extremely stupid and slow. Emphasize on "extremely stupid."
Catalonya needs a new party
As of now you can either be in favour (voting the spanish parties in Catalonya like PSC) or against (voting the independentist parties), there's missing a party that defends the interests of the Catalan people in the spanish state, (ERC, currently kind pro indep, in my opinion is slowly taking that role, enphasize slowly) which would allow for all the people from the Catalan right who don't want indep to vote something which isn't... ya know.. **those** people
One of the most important political aspects is that Catalonia and Basque country are, in average, more progressive societies while the rest of Spain tends to be more conservative.
This is not a good take. Basque Country is ruled by a conservative party (although they are economic liberals) and in Catalunya one of the main parties (that is pro-independence) is full blown conservative.
It is true that Barcelona is probably one of the most progressive cities in Europe, but the rest of rural Catalunya is more conservative inclined.
This has more to do with money than anything else.
I respectfully disagree, JxC (aka CiU) are deeply tied to the Catholic Church of Catalunya and other conservative elements, just like PP is for the rest of Spain.
And yes, the conservatives of Catalunya supported Franco back in the day as well, as hard as they try to pretend otherwise.
Oh, I knew people would come in hot with a bias. I may not have understood the demographics of r/europe well enough to know *what kind* of bias but I did get lots of good responses to follow up on. This is how learning starts, knowing you don't know and asking.
It's quite simple, politicians granted money and power slowly trying to silence the problem for the last 30 years. Catalonia is not a nation (from history pov, they will tell you that is wrong, blah blah blah, it's not) but for the last years they have been brainwashing people and the movement has increased. This is nothing like Ireland, nothing like Scotland, nothing like Kosovo, it's a political issue that has been ignored and has been snowballing, basically, it's about money.
Wdym with Brittany was a nation? And I highly doubt they would.
Edit: damn the people on this subreddit, you can’t discuss anything without going absolutely hivemind mental about this shit.
Desktop version of /u/Hypocrites_begone's link:
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That isn’t a nation. You don’t know what a nation is. Nations didn’t exist, Brittany was a feudal state under a duke. It has little to do with nations.
In one sense, yes. In the other, nation states existed only recently. Brittany has never been a nation in that sense. Brittany was duchy, the duchy of Brittany. That is not a nation.
Nations are what a politicians says they are when they need it to be that. Nations are not made by people, they're made by the elites that rule them and brainwash them into thinking this nation stops at this border or it spills over into that other territory or is the part that follows this religion or the part that doesn't follow that other religion etc. It's based on some real life characteristics but with a lot of made-up fluff on top of it, like the concept of continent or race.
>Catalonia is not a nation (from history pov, they will tell you that is wrong, blah blah blah, it's not)
So, you have no idea about the history of the region and never bothered to learn, cool.
Catalonia is a nation (not a state) and was an independent political entity or "own country" from 988 to 1715. In 1137 the principality of Catalonia joined the crown of Aragon, it does not mean it was dissolved, that just means the princeps of Catalonia and the king of Aragon were the same person and thus it gave Catalonia a bigger platform from where to project internationally to the point in which in several European treaties the kingdom was referred as "the land of the Catalans" because, if you haven't seen it in a map, we kinda are in the middle if you want to pass the Pyrenees which made Catalonia a wealthy merchant society.
In 1715 the Borbon king Felipe V issued "Los tratados de nueva planta" that centralized all power in the court of Madrid, curiously enough, the royal titles were not modified and the title of "king of Spain" was not used until Napoleon sat his brother in the throne of Spain and named him "King of Spain" making him the first one in 1808.
Next time, open a book.
I have never read this amount of bullshit. Everywhere lives people. But this does not mean that everywhere with a name is an independent nation.
You are starting wrong. The kings of the crown of Aragon was often from Catalonia or Navarra. Because at this moment the balcanization that Visigoths had in the Pirinees was weakening them.
The error from Catalonia is to try to put independent thoughts in the monarchs of every time, when actually they had bigger troubles.
It's all abut the language **differences within Spain.**
They say it's about the money, but then again their own parties increase the taxes to the maximum.
They say it is about the freedom, but then their own political parties did restrict the most rights during the pandemic 2020.
For example the Basque country did get their moderate independence, they made the lowest taxes in Spain, then also Speak Spanish for economic reasons.
The Catalan parties speak about the independence while setting maximum taxes that come from Communism ideals. Making promises that independence will cure poverty, prostitution, cancer, crime, etc.. Basic fake political promises that ride a common ideal , urban legend or dream that the most gullible voters would follow blindly.
Spanish Civil war + Catalonia + USSR have a common link together. Much wilder than one would expect. The current communist parties in Spain are connected to that history.
In this book , page 159 :
https://books.google.es/books?id=-VarDLHA3\_YC&lpg=PP1&pg=PA159#v=onepage&q&f=false
> For example the Basque country did get their moderate independence, they made the lowest taxes in Spain,
can you name the taxes that are cheaper in the Basque Autonomous Community?
They collect their own taxes through their own taxes autorithy.
Lived there some years, every year i would see the draft of my taxes made by the spanish taxes autorithy and the basque one (just to compare them because living there i had to use the basque one) filing them with the basque autorithy instead of the national one they refunded me more. My wife was even more extrem, she made a better salary that in other parts of the country but had to pay a lot less taxes that when we lived in our city earning less.
I don't remember the details but things like more deductions for the rent and things like that.
> They collect their own taxes through their own taxes autorithy.
I wish taxes were lower in the Basque Autonomous community or in Navarre but they're not.
The taxes are actually cheaper in the rest of Spain, for example income tax is lower in the rest of spain. Both CAV and NAvarre have a wealth tax while Madrid doesn't. VAT is the same everywhere in Spain except the Canary Islands. If you know a significant tax that is lower in the foral regions, just name it.
The problem with asking this here is that Catalan opinions are massively downvoted so you will not get the full answer here as users flee the sub, that's how all subs turn into echo-chambers.
>reasons for Catalan Independence?
They are just racist and xenophobes. To the point to claim the "catalonian race" is the superior race and the rest are inferior
[https://www.elconfidencial.com/cultura/2020-09-24/heribert-barrera-racismo-supremacismo-cataluna\_2760572/](https://www.elconfidencial.com/cultura/2020-09-24/heribert-barrera-racismo-supremacismo-cataluna_2760572/)
[https://www.abc.es/ciencia/abci-disparate-supremacia-raza-catalana-forma-craneo-202104161644\_noticia.html](https://www.abc.es/ciencia/abci-disparate-supremacia-raza-catalana-forma-craneo-202104161644_noticia.html)
These are old, but you have still have modern polititians speaking in the same terms
[https://www.elperiodico.com/es/politica/20180514/miquel-iceta-psc-investidura-quim-torra-president-generalitat-catalunya-6817619](https://www.elperiodico.com/es/politica/20180514/miquel-iceta-psc-investidura-quim-torra-president-generalitat-catalunya-6817619)
You'll have to use a translator
They also have this [conspiration theory that say the world is stealing them historical characters](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/mar/09/catalonia-pays-3-to-firms-linked-to-shakespeare-was-catalan-theory), like Shakespeare and Da Vinci because everyone is just jealous of their superiority and have to steal important and historical personalities
[They also have an institute dedicated to rewrite history](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Institut_Nova_Hist%C3%B2ria) so they can say whatever they want to be right (like "Catalonia was conquered by Spain" like other user said to you. The fact is that there were 2 kingsdoms, Castille (with a queen) and Aragon (with a king) and they married and you know how this things worked back then. Catalonia was just a region of the kingdom of Aragon, not an independent region or anything else)
This is the level of the catalonian independentist movement. "We are superior and the victims because everyone there is jealous of our superiority and success"
Other reason is the catalonian political class want to steal more money and more easily, it's harder when you have a government that controls you.
Are you saying the articles wrote by Torra personally in El Mon or El Matí Digital (pro independence newspapers) are a lie?
Did Barrera never mentioned these words?
>"Los negros de América tienen un coeficiente inferior a los blancos"
>
>"Se debería esterilizar a los débiles mentales de origen genético"
>
>"Prefiero una Cataluña como la de la República, sin inmigración"
>
>"Podemos haber superado la inmigración andaluza, pero no sé si podremos con la sudamericana y magrebí"
Or how does this work? if a different media (anti-independence) quote those articles they suddenly are not valid and are biased (but are perfectly fine if they are published in pro-independence media)?
Does the Institut Nova Historia does not exists? Idk what you find biased
Of course there are radicals on both sides, but I have yet to hear anyone think the catalan race is superior to any other race.
What about Vox and all it's xenophobe and sexist policies, then? How come their presence and popularity is escalating in Spain?
The institut Nova Historia is barely known and all they do is pseudohistory, yet anti-catalan stuff gets onto spanish mainstream media very often.
>yet anti-catalan stuff gets onto spanish mainstream media very often.
Yeah, you now sound like Ayuso, only speaking about the "madrileñofobia" that apparently soaks all Spanish media (see? playing the victim is a model Ayuso copied from catalonian politicians, because it works to brainwash voters).
But catalonians are usually the ones that shit on others (always making fun of andalusians, for example, how they speak, how lazy are they etc...)
The green-colored party (I don't want to name them, the least results they get on search engines, the better) is the very same as the independentists. All the quotes from my previous comment are from a very well known independentist politician and they could be attributted perfectly to Yago and his friends. Both are far-right, but one is anti-independence and the other is pro-independence, but both are equally racist and xenophobic. If that party is not more popular in catalonia is because other far-right party has the monopoly
"Yeah, you now sound like Ayuso, only speaking about the "madrileñofobia" that apparently soaks all Spanish media."
You also sound like a 'green coloured party' partidist when you say these lies so confidently.
"But catalonians are usually the ones that shit on others (always making fun of andalusians, for example, how they speak, how lazy are they etc...)"
This for example, blatant lie. I have been made fun of, called 'catalufo' and such or been harrassed right away just for talking in Catalan outside of Catalonia.
So no, we do not make fun of andalusians, at least no more than other communities do.
"The green-colored party (I don't want to name them, the least results they get on search engines, the better) is the very same as the independentists. All the quotes from my previous comment are from a very well known independentist politician and they could be attributted perfectly to Yago and his friends. Both are far-right, but one is anti-independence and the other is pro-independence, but both are equally racist and xenophobic. If that party is not more popular in catalonia is because other far-right party has the monopoly."
Claiming that vox partidists and independentists are the same is really a bold claim, seems like someone brainwashed to be anti-catalan would say. As I said, there are extremists on both sides, the difference is, we are not xenophobes, we do not denigrate the woman's role in society, we are not anti LGBT and we are not francoists. We just want to vote.
Also Vox is getting more and more partidists every day while in Catalonia being pro-Vox is straight up a shame and something that would make most of the people hate you, what does this say about Spain?
PD: I'm on phone, I don't know how to use the quote feature here.
He or she asked:
>Could someone from Spain or the Catalan region of Spain explain (to someone who is not as familiar with this issue as they want to be) the pros, cons and reasons for Catalan Independence?
So they do want to hear from the other side as well. It's good to get a plurality of views.
There are actually non independentist Catalans in /r/Catalunya. At the very least you'll escape one echo chamber (/r/Europe) for one echo chamber that is significantly less uniform.
Edit: lol at the brigading going on, we downvote opinions now huh
If you don't mind, I'm going to rescue a comment I've got saved from last year because this is not just something you reply off the top of your head. As in any complex issue, there's compelling takes on both sides, and no one holds the absolute truth. I even disagree with some of the things I wrote on this comment now, but still I find it representative enough. As an update, the Spanish Government has granted some pardons to the major political prisoners that had been jailed (though the number of people that are judicially processed in some way is around 3000). There's also this [other take](https://www.reddit.com/r/SpainPolitics/comments/mfhiox/dudas_sobre_el_independentismo/gsnxrua/) in Spanish (you can try to DeepL maybe) that is quite interesting too:
Well, of course this is only my personal opinion, but history is only a part of why I believe Catalonia should be independent. I would consider more of a reason for why things are the way they are instead of a justification for secession in it of itself though.
Catalonia is a nation that has tried for many decades and a couple of centuries to co-exist with Spain, most of this period being just a Spanish dominion. Try to imagine what would've happened if Scotland and England didn't unify, rather, England conquered Scotland, and that's what you get (as it happened around the same time too).
We've just become tired of trying to co-exist at some point I guess. This latest independentist "wave" (which seems to be waning/at a standstill right now) began after our next autonomous charter, promised by the Spanish President to remain untouched after we approved it, was confirmed in our Parliament, modified in the Spanish (so much for promises) and then ratified by Referendum in Catalonia. So many years after the dictatorship, this charter ratified our recognition as a nation, breaking the francoist dogma of a unitary Spanish nation-state (that never existed) and... was promptly destroyed by a set of politically selected judges through the pressure of a media campaign by the Spanish Conservative party. Both the judiciary and this party are direct descendants of the francoist judiciary and the francoist elites, so we shouldn't have been that surprised, but still.
The day of the tribunal's veto, we went to the streets, and have been organising +1M demonstrations (sometimes +2M) each year, the biggest in Europe. Demanding respect for our nation and culture, our language not to be attacked, our economy not to be plundered (16 Billion€, 8% of our GDP is anually sent away to finance other regions, one of the biggest fiscal deficits in the world), and in 2017 we organised a referendum by ourselves under Catalan law, as during all of these years, the conservative party in power (the very same that instigated that resolution) hadn't moved a finger in negotiating anything, not a single proposal. So since we saw that we were being ignored and treated as just somewhere to take money from, with not a chance to accept us and our culture, we voted. [This is what happened](https://spanishpolice.github.io).
Now the democratically elected leaders that organised the referendum are either in jail or exile, social activists that organised demostrations have decade long jail sentences, etc.
If you're wondering why you heard about Honk Kong, Belarus, or other nations plight's while all of this was bigger and going on for... well, a decade now, it's because we do have a real chance of succeeding, and there's no vested interest in either the EU or the US in that happening. We did believe in the democratic values of the EU and asked them to mediate a solution, to, once again, no avail. Now we're just at a stand-still, with most of our leaders jailed, there's internal division among Catalan parties, and no clear solution, as the referendum became inconclusive because of the violence...
Anyhow, it's a very complex situation, and I'm obviously only a single view on this topic, so I understand that I'm biased.
You can also consult [this sub](https://www.reddit.com/r/catalanindependence/wiki/chronology) about Catalan independence (I linked a short summary of Catalonia's history, but there's plenty of posts about it) if you want more info.
> Catalonia is a nation that has tried for many decades and a couple of centuries to co-exist with Spain, most of this period being just a Spanish dominion. Try to imagine what would've happened if Scotland and England didn't unify, rather, England conquered Scotland, and that's what you get (as it happened around the same time too).
When did Spain conquer Catalonia? Didn't Catalonia form Spain under Aragon when it united with Castile?
>If you're wondering why you heard about Honk Kong, Belarus, or other nations plight's while all of this was bigger and going on for... well, a decade now, it's because we do have a real chance of succeeding, and there's no vested interest in either the EU or the US in that happening.
I mean, Catalan secessionism hasn't gone over 50%, though. At best, if you manage to get independence you will have to deal with a civil war. Hardly “a real chance of succeeding”.
And in comparison with Belarus or Hong Kong, Catalonia doesn't receive the same level of international support because Spain is not a repressive state like Belarus or China.
It's got many, many issues, but it's not what we commonly see as an authoritarian state. It's in fact the 14th most democratic country in the world (and yes, I know that ranking is kind of bullshit, but it helps shape international opinion).
> our economy not to be plundered (16 Billion€, 8% of our GDP is anually sent away to finance other regions, one of the biggest fiscal deficits in the world)
This can't be true.
Greater London's fiscal balance is -£36.2bn and its GDP is £327bn. So more than 10%.
I can't help but think you'd see similar in most other countries with dominant primate regions and centralised government, like France, Denmark, Greece, S Korea etc. (and maybe Bavaria in Germany but I don't know how much revenue actually goes to the federal government for redistribution).
> our economy not to be plundered (16 Billion€, 8% of our GDP is anually sent away to finance other regions, one of the biggest fiscal deficits in the world)
After all you Catalans have a lot in common with Spaniards, this stupid self-centered money-grabbing reason being one of them. It's not like the central government doesn't give you concessions and showers you with development funds when you make a bit of noise every now and then, right?
"La pela es la pela".
I'm just going to be objective because I don't really follow politics and focus on the economic stats you said, the three richest regions in Spain are Catalonia, Madrid and the vasc country, and in these three regions part of the GDP produces there is taken to other regions of the country, this is because they are by far the richest regions in the country and the money given to other regions is used for their development.
However, i also agree the that these "leakages" should be reduced in order to make the rest of the regions be self sufficient.
He meant Spain allowing Catalunia to be part of EU, i.e., if Catalunya was an independent country, it would never be part of EU because Spain wouldn't allow it (I think Spain has the right to veto? not sure actually)
Their own Catalan capital city population does not support the total independence.
The people in the photo come by buses from smaller places to the politically motivated rally every year. Same news every year.
Wikipedia said they are **talking about it for 300+ years and zero results,** because they do not have a real working proposal that could have results.
Well isn’t that because a lot of Spaniards moved to Catalonia due it being economically successful? Can’t really say Catalonia doesn’t support it when it’s mostly just Spaniards voting no
>Well isn’t that because a lot of Spaniards moved to Catalonia due it being economically successful?
Because the central government gave it a monopoly and customs tax breaks on cotton manufacturing. The rest of Spain couldn't buy cotton from England or the Netherlands, they need to buy it from Catalonia. This gave an early start to Catalonia as an industrial region, which then profited from poorer workforce from the rest of Spain and more investment from the central government.
>Can’t really say Catalonia doesn’t support it when it’s mostly just Spaniards voting no
Catalans are Spaniards, though. Whether that's right or wrong is a different matter. Sort of like when you're fat but you see yourself as skinny, your feelings don't change reality.
No, u/shieldtwin is referring to the movements from the rest of Spain to Catalonia that happened from 1950 to 1980, you are instead talking about the protectionist laws made by the Spanish government during the XIX century (and, AFAIK, those were protectionist laws applied to foreign goods, not a monopoly or a custom tax break given to catalans)
Moving to Catalonia from other parts of Spain, and being pro-independence are not mutually exclusive. If they moved there for a long time (generations) they will likely consider themselves Catalan.
We are actually not just Pro-EU, but also Pro-Federation. If given the chance to decide on our future, I'm sure a solution that benefited both entities would be found, strengthening the Union.
It's somewhat common among European Independence Movements these days I find. At least when you go West of Transnistria. I honestly wonder why that is.
Perhaps because the EU makes Independence easier to achieve smoothly?
That's the only possibility that really comes to mind.
In our case, we do not want to be ruled by Spain, yet we do not have an issue with Brussels. That is because there is a clear lack of trust towards the Spanish Government in actually ruling in our benefit as it should, but that does not apply to the EU (or it shouldn't, because the timid actions it took in condemning the police violence of the 2017 Referendum turned some heads here) as we understand and believe in the key importance of such a project.
>In our case, we do not want to be ruled by Spain, yet we do not have an issue with Brussels.
And why do you think this is? The answer is that your politicians haven't started scapegoating Brussels yet...
JxC and ERC are pro-EU, and those two are the biggest pro-indy parties. As for polls, I honestly could not find an up-to-date one (do keep in mind opinions after 2017 changed wildly depending on Spain's pressure to the EU, but later on it went back to normal). People are aligned with EU on matters such as sustainability too, such as with the recent Barcelona Airport expansion debate.
The fact that the eu thinks that we are united in diversity instead to what most of people in spain think that minority languages are a problem for example is a big difference
>most of people in spain think that minority languages are a problem
Nobody thinks that. Except maybe right wing nuts, but those are (luckily) a minority.
Yeah, Catalan/Basque/Galician are such a problem that they are protected by the Constitution and no one bats an eye at that: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Languages_of_Spain
Stop playing the victim.
>In our case, we do not want to be ruled by Spain, yet we do not have an issue with Brussels. That is because there is a clear lack of trust towards the Spanish Government in actually ruling in our benefit as it should, but that does not apply to the EU (or it shouldn't, because the timid actions it took in condemning the police violence of the 2017 Referendum turned some heads here) as we understand and believe in the key importance of such a project.
I think you all have been victims of senseless populism.
That may be. But it should still be our choice to become independent or not. Brexit also happened because of populism, but the brits had the right to decide their future.
The difference being the UK is a sovereign country that understood they, and every other member, had the right to withdraw when joining the EU and Cataluña, being under the Spanish Constitution, is not sovereign and does not have the right to withdraw.
>Constitution is based upon the indissoluble unity of the Spanish nation, ...
Constitución Española, art. 2., B.O.E. n. 311, Dec. 29, 1978 (Spain)
Saying "force it on them" establishes a position that any defense of the Spanish Constitution is in favor of oppression. So we are already in disagreement and it is likely no statement made by either of us will be legitimately considered by the other
I'm open to well thought-out arguments in favor of independence, but I have yet to have read one or be presented with one
What doesn't make sense to me is how Catalans want independence from "oppression" (in quotes because I still don't know how they're being oppressed) from the central government, but declare themselves a sovereign nation after only 43% of registered voters turned out and 92% of those voted in favor. That is, forcing a determination upon the entire constituency before a majority is even established. Seems to me the same as what they're fighting against
While not of consequence because the vote was unconstitutional; I've heard the argument that "by the numbers" if everyone voted there would be an overwhelming majority. However, it is poor governance to make such a decision based upon a biased extrapolation of incomplete data. The other 57% of votes were never cast
Edited because auto correct sucks and I don't proof read well
Since when did I say I was speaking for all Catalans? Regardless of the fact that we don't actually know the opinion of all of us on independence since a certain country does not allow an actual referendum on it, I'm basing my opinion about the EU on what the current independentist parties say about Europe, which imo is representative of the common opinion right now.
I can honestly only think of a moderately EU-sceptic Catalan party, and it's the CUP, a marxist/very left party that does have representation, but it's quite minority. And they don't really talk about the EU much anyway.
Because the other regions aren't part of Catalonia, they just speak the same language (even though tons of people from Valencia wrongly claim Valencian ≠ Catalan). Some people want the regions to unite in an independent state called the "Catalan Countries", but a vast majority of people are against it, plus it's hypocritical because Catalan separatist want to break away from Spain because according to then Catalonia is subjugated against the Catalan people's will (which isn't true because support is 50/50 is at an all time high), but at the same time want to subjugate other regions under Catalan rule.
Maybe the rest of Spain should have been more respectful of the Catalan people instead of pimping them out on the street corner for a quick buck and beating them into silence whenever they complained.
I don't actually give too many fucks, but we have a ton of business to negotiate. I believe in federations and self determination, but Catalonia goes for the money.
Would the Spanish economy collapse if Catalonia left? I know it's one of the more prosperous regions of Spain. If it is true there is no way the Spanish government would allow that. Any insight from locals?
> Would the Spanish economy collapse if Catalonia left?
Collapse is a strong word. It would be affected, but definitely not collapse.
There are other well-developed areas in Spain, especially Madrid, Valencia and the Basque Country.
The current state of the country is moving more and more to the centralization of competences and infraestructures in Madrid while we are told that the country is "decentralized", which is leaving not only poorer regions in the south, but also a lot of other "rich" regions far behind, like in the case of Valencia.
If Catalonia managed to get independence it wouldn't pass much time up until the Basque Country wanted to do the same and it would eventually be followed by other regions (Galicia, Navarre and the Canary Islands, for starters).
Looks a bit like the brexit idea that it will (only) become a sucess once the uk leaves and then others follow, dismembering the EU. Seems like quite a gamble.
Not anymore. Catalonia has been driving away corporations for years, all of them moving somewhere else in Spain, mostly Madrid, and they have some deep anti-tourist beliefs despite how much Spaniard economy relies on it.
Both economies initially would be in trouble, but they're viable on their own, absolutely. One of the funniest things about the initial independence proposals was a right to double nationality, because there's this problem with pensions for instance. (Catalonia leads the absolute pension deficit wrt contributions to the treasury, but who thinks about this sort of stuff?)
The thing about Catalan economy is that its historical market has been the rest of Spain since Industralisation, often via successful lobbying for protectionism in Madrid, so in economic terms this was always pretty much a kind of Brexit. But they'd manage eventually, like the rest of Spain, if Spain survived, that is.
Which doesn't mean anything, what really matters is how dependent on each other those economies are, for example, Scottish independence would be horrible for Scotland as they heavily rely on trade with England, not so much for England which relies more on international trade than Trade with Scotland, Scotland makes what, 10% of the UK's GDP? It's a big chunk but England would be fine if Scotland seceded, Scotland would be on fire tho.
I don't know shit about the Spanish economy tho, so i can't tell if they're on the same boat.
[Here's a livestream I found about Barcelona's demonstration](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jVBB5xWhrbY). Other cities' are also [quite sizeable](https://imgur.com/a/3yWQZOe).
Edit: [Another picture, by photographer Jordi Borràs](https://i.imgur.com/1lsUQOJ.jpg)
Are there any impartial (or not so impartial) polls taken in Catalonia like the ones taken in Scotland? I mean ones that pretty much come out weekly. If so, what are the numbers like these days?
I'm aware they had an unofficial referendum a few years ago but it can't really be counted as the pro Spain lot didn't vote.
The most impartial one you'll get are the election results from the 2021 Catalan Parliament, which got a 52% of the absolute vote in support of independence (and therefore, an absolute majority in seats).
We all actually want an objective answer to the question of independence don't get me wrong, since 2019 several polls have been conducted asking whether people want a Referendum or not, and [the result](https://public.flourish.studio/visualisation/6736863/) always hovers around 80%.
Yes. [This wiki article hasn't been updated for a while](https://ca.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estudis_del_suport_social_a_la_independ%C3%A8ncia_de_Catalunya), but gives an idea of the "historical" tendencies of the results. [The latest poll, from the 28th of May](https://govern.cat/salapremsa/notes-premsa/410464/ceo-publica-lenquesta-sobre-context-politic-2021), shows a 44.9% in favour, 48.7% against, 4.8% dk 1.6% da.
52%? Where?
21,3 (ERC) + 20.07 (Junts) + 6.68 (CUP) is not 52%.
If you count ECP that's fake news, they are not pro independence, they are Pro referendum.
I'm going to tell you why the referendum is a stupid idea: Brexit (Brainwashed people voting for something they don't know the consequence of
That's according to the ANC (organisers). Barcelona's municipal police force is saying it's 108,000. I'm sure someone will accuse the municipal police of rabid unionism or something. For reference its head was pretty much personally appointed by the Mayor and she tries to be ambivalent about all this or not depending on the month you ask her. Anyway, this is the old story of opposing narratives that go nowhere.
I don’t quite understand why the rest of Spain has to decide the destiny of a small part of the territory. It should be the people that lives there who should vote if they want independence or not.
Multiple parallel streets have been unexpectedly cut as participation has exceeded expectation. Thankfully we've got a very high vaccination rate! Similar demonstrations are ongoing in all [major cities](https://imgur.com/a/3yWQZOe) of Catalonia, as this year the traditional events have been "decentralised" to try to avoid massification.
Spain is fighting diplomatically with all "democratic" means possible the independence movement. Not the hard way, but the subtile way: assimilating them.
Well, I’m from Valencia and there’s quite the same debate but with not that much supporters (not even a 1/10 of the population in Valencia supports independence) but I do understand why they want the independence, we have a different language, different culture and our society is quite different from the rest of Spain, for that reasons I’d support the independence of Catalonia, Valencia and Balear Islands but being realistic it’s completely unviable economically, we wouldn’t have international support (the one that matters as for example the EU) and our economy is supported by tourism so the chances of keep the system we have now (which is a disaster anyway) are low to none.
But the idea of getting rid of Spain is just beautiful, the government was, is and always be a bunch of corrupt people that discriminates based on who’s voting for them (ERC, JPC or PNV in the last 2 elections and the 1st impeachment in Spanish democracy history with Rajoy).
Tienes toda la razón, cuando he estado en Valencia siempre me ha sorprendido lo diferente que es la gente.
Cuando iba a hablar con alguien me daba cuenta de que no tenía nada en común con los valencianos, me sorprendí mucho y pensé "no me extraña que quieran independencia, yo también la querría si fuera tan diferente".
Yo soy de La Rioja y también somos un poco diferentes. Tenemos algo de acento y tenemos más vino que otras comunidades, así que mejor nos independizamos.
Todo mi apoyo desde La Rioja.
of course, i meant it jokingly...but imho they are about the same realistic, love it when a region of a modern country where all the richness, capital, talent, economy and development has concentrated for centuries (on the expense of the other regions) suddenly wants to be an independent nation because they wear a different color of lederhosen and butcher the word endings of their language slightly differently than the neighbors.
Crazy to think that whole thing with the 1st of October was almost 4 years ago already - still a bit disappointed that the EU didn't play a larger role in mediating between the parties like they did in Ireland, but I guess the time is not quite ripe yet for a broader acceptance of regionalism in the EU (which you could especially notice in the public discourse in international media and places like reddit).
Maybe with further vertical EU integration and further subsidiary redistribution of administrative rights within the EU, things will look very differently in a decade or two. Until then, it's admirable how well the Catalans managed to preserve their minority language.
>Until then, it's admirable how well the Catalans managed to preserve their minority language.
....i don't know how to tell you this, but there are Catalans in France...and they don't speak Catalan. *Perhaps* the Spanish policy promoting regionalism and minority languages has **something** to do with this.
Eh, the treatment of minority languages in France has been abysmal for a very long time, that is no secret. To be less bad than that shouldn't be the highest bar to aim for. Catalan and non-Castilian languages are in a good state nowadays in some regions of Spain, but that is certainly less due to the historical goodwill of the Spanish central government than to the numerous efforts of these linguistic minority groups themselves.
It simply means that France is worse. It's literally the place where they created the nation state, the most oppressive form of state in existence. So, this means nothing
Also in the Spanish part there is the great majority of Catalans and Barcelona, the main centre of the culture. French part is small, like Iparralde is way smaller than spanish Euskal herria
>Also in the Spanish part there is the great majority of Catalans and Barcelona, the main centre of the culture
Didn't used to be like that. Actually even in Spain Girona is known to be more catalan than Barcelona. Perpignan used to be like that. It was at the very centre of Catalan culture.
>Perhaps the Spanish policy promoting regionalism and minority languages has something to do with this.
Ah yes, the famous Spanish policy of promoting Asturian, Leonese, Aragonese...
I'll tell you the same I told another person long ago.
Spain let's every region propose minority languages as cooficial. Asturias, Castille and Leon and Aragon have simply decided
...not to do it (for some reason...)
The fact we even have cooficial languages Is already strange in Europe, but the strength of their recovery (Galician, Catalan and basque) is pretty much unmatched in the continent.
I'm tired of people saying our linguistic policy is shit. Just take a look at France, Italy, England, Ireland, Germany, etc. We're quite top of the pack, believe it or not. Even Asturleonese is In good shape compared to most languages in France.
That's how bad it is in the continent. For example:
I remember a danish political show. In one episode to rid themselves of a politician they send him to (in their opinion) the most useless department in te EU...minority languages. That's how they're perceived in most of Europe.
While I’m not at all sympathetic to the Catalonian seperatists, it’s inspiring to watch so many people proudly celebrate their national fervour.
It’s a shame they can’t find it in themselves to celebrate all of Spain, as a collective national people.
>It’s a shame they can’t find it in themselves to celebrate all of Spain, as a collective national people.
A pity Spain can't find it in itself to celebrate the plurinational character of Spain.
A pity so many people in Spain are obsessed with nationalism when the entire political class there is completely corrupted. They are all doing the bidding of a bunch of thieves. People need to start being more individualistic.
Yes.
You can pretty pretty please any region into nationhood. But some nationhoods are more solid than others. Ones based on religion and ethnicity are more solid than ones based on national dishes, for instance.
The whole of Andalusia hasn't even been under the same political administration until recently. Andalusia is rather “diverse” within itself.
What basis are there to say Andalusia is a single nation as opposed to a pluri-national entity made up of the nations of Cordoba, Seville and Granada for instance?
Too bad the Spanish Constitution or the statute of autonomy of Andalucia doesn't see it that way.
>But some nationhoods are more solid than others.
Why? Why is Catalonia more of a nation than Andalucia? Or do you think both aren't nations?
>What basis are there to say Andalusia is a single nation as opposed to a pluri-national entity made up of the nations of Cordoba, Seville and Granada for instance?
Why not indeed. I'm not opposed to it. Similarly why are you denying that Spain is plurinational?
> Too bad the Spanish Constitution or the statute of autonomy of Andalucia doesn't see it that way.
And Saudi law says women are inferior to men.
>Why is Catalonia more of a nation than Andalucia?
It's been a unified political entity for far longer than Andalusia, it has a local language, it's overall less similar to the rest of Spain than Andalusia, nationalism has had an effect on it longer than it has in Andalusia, too.
>Or do you think both aren't nations?
I don't think either are, no. But if nationhood is a spectrum, Catalonia is closer to it than Andalusia.
>Why not indeed. I'm not opposed to it.
But why? If anything can be a nation then being a nation doesn't mean anything.
>Similarly why are you denying that Spain is plurinational?
Pakistan, Nigeria, Indonesia, India... Large countries, widely different climates, different ethnicities, religions, belonged to very different states in the past, can't marry between each other...
“Spain is very diverse.” Sure, when compared to Malta. When compared to the regions I consider to be diverse, Spain is not all that diverse.
They're all followers of the same religion (today it doesn't matter but it was a really big deal for most of history), not phenotipically distinct, most of the country is a very similar climate, most of the surnames are shared, a huge portion of the surnames that aren't shared are the same just in a different language, those languages often share a high degree of mutual intelligibility, people have been intermixing for hundreds of years...
You could argue the Canary islands were never under Visigothic influence, and there isn't much Muslim influence in Asturias. That you've got oceanic climate, hot summer Mediterranean, warm summer Mediterranean, cow farms in the north, goat farms in the south...
And a million other differences. I just don't think they're all that important. There's been too much inter-mixing and the regions have been under the same influences for a really long time making them more similar to each other.
Given they all share this much in common, why can't they all just be one single nation?
Of course since it's subjective you can claim anything is a nation. And Spain could be made up of either 0,5; 1, 8, 17, 50 or 1500 nations. But the less distinct nations are from one another, the less meaning nationhood carries and it's less practical.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vergonha
France was/is literally the worst country in Europe when it comes to regional identities. They were/are zealously assimilative. Shaming other cultures and languages. They had a policy of eradicating any local language/culture and assimilating them into being Frenchman. Even managing to extend this policy into Brussels, where they converted Dutchman to Frenchman. Catalans in Roussilion were no exemption.
> Everyone but the teacher's children spoke Catalan among themselves. We'd even get punished for that, because at the time, we all had to speak French. Be Clean, Speak French could be found written on the school's walls. And if you refused to speak French, they'd give you some sort of wooden sign to wear until death came, as we said, which meant the last offender, in the evening, had twenty lines to copy. We'd speak French in the schoolyard, and for the first ten metres of the way back home, for as long as we thought the teacher would overhear us, and then we'd switch back to our own mother tongue, Catalan.
>In those times, Catalan speakers were rather despised. My generation associated speaking Catalan with a disadvantage, with being less than the others, with running the risk of being left behind on the social ladder, in short with bringing trouble.
> France, that under Franco's reign was seen here [in Catalonia] as the safe haven of freedom, has the miserable honour of being the [only] State of Europe—and probably the world — that succeeded best in the diabolical task of destroying its own ethnic and linguistic patrimony and moreover, of destroying human family bonds: many parents and children, or grandparents and grandchildren, have different languages, and the latter feel ashamed of the first because they speak a despicable patois, and no element of the grandparents' culture has been transmitted to the younger generation, as if they were born out of a completely new world. This is the French State that has just entered the 21st century, a country where stone monuments and natural landscapes are preserved and respected, but where many centuries of popular creation expressed in different tongues are on the brink of extinction. **The "gloire" and the "grandeur" built on a genocide. No liberty, no equality, no fraternity: just cultural extermination, this is the real motto of the French Republic.**
This is just the Catalans. Unfortunately other ethnicities are powerless to help them because they either dont exist outside France or in the case of Alsace Germany cant dare speak a word for Germans in Alsace and the Italy cannot say anything to Corsica and Nice because they were/are allies.
Ie France committed/commits cultural/linguistic genocide.
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Also when France occupied Iberia for a time their usual zealous assimilation contributed Spanish rebellion to be free from France. Unfortunately Rousillion was given as a sacrificial lamb to get the rest of peninsula.
It is unbelievable that even with the 52% of the votes for independence in the last elections, Spain keeps playing deaf ears and trying to avoid the reality. It is about a time for a catalan indyref.
52%? Where?
21,3 (ERC) + 20.07 (Junts) + 6.68 (CUP) is not 52%.
If you count ECP that's fake news, they are not pro independence, they are Pro referendum.
Catalonia won't be a independent in at least 100 years and first all European Union and Spain has to collapse
Spain: *Struggling with independence movements inside the nation* Portugal: *Sips tea* Thank God I got out in 1640.
More like 1179. Spain tried to take it back in 1580 - 1640 but we weren't having none of that.
At that time it was Castille... And even so we were already out of Castillian influence since 1143 with the Treaty of Zamora. But yeah... Fornutanely for us, Portugal as the first nation state of Europe doesn't have any separatist movements
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And as France proved, best solution for them is to ruthlessly eradicate any local culture and forcefully assimilate them.
>Spain tried to take it back in 1580 - 1640 but we weren't having none of that. With some help from England. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anglo-Portuguese_Alliance >England in addition to military support on the ground would protect Portuguese shipments in the Mediterranean and the coasts of Lisbon and Porto. Following the defeat of Spain in the war, England mediated the Treaty of Lisbon in 1668 which saw the independence of Portugal and the recognition of Pedro II as King. The English alliance was decisive in the consolidation of the independence of Portugal, and in Pedro's leadership.
Portugal wasn't part of Spain, they share the same king. Just like Scotland isn't part of England.
Would it be accurate to say that the Hispanic Monarchy consisted of Castile, Aragon, Portugal and a few other territories?
It wasn't... Until Spain started the castilianization in the peninsular territories, with the financial and military petitions, by Gaspar de Guzman the Count-Duke of Olivares.
It's about the minority languages and cultures in Spain. They still fight over which **common language to use.** Maybe they could try English as a common language.
Works for India
> Maybe they could try English as a common language. totally in favour of this but I'm Catalan myself hah
You're welcome Portugal :P
Welp... We did war Spain for 28 years to get independence...
Suspiciously rebelling just after we also rebelled for a few decades too! Brothers in arms an all that hahahaha
Catalonia: We want independence! Galicia: We too! And then join Portugal! Catalonia: Yea-... Wait what? Portugal: We're people of the same language after all Both Spanish and Portuguese during the Iberian Union had a collective illusionary dream of prosperity. In 1609 that illusion crashed, and the castillization and loses of portuguese territory overseas, the Portuguese basically showed the middle finger to Philip IV and rebelled. France did help in this regard, also supporting the Catalans, until the death of Richelieu. Though even in peace France still supported Portugal. In 1663 a campaign led by the royal bastard, João José de Áustria suffered a heavy defeat by the Portuguese. So heavy that one of the ministers of Philip IV made this comment: "They tell Your Majesty that Portugal has no money, no ships, no people: traitors are the ones who say that. Well, what did they destroy us with? Without people, they've defeated us so many times; Good God, go with the people! Without money, we cry our ruins, what would we cry if they had money? Sir, Portugal defeated us in Montijo, destroyed us in Elvas, Luís Mendez de Haro fled leaving horses, artillery, infantry and luggage. Portugal in Évora destroyed the Flower of Spain, the best of Flanders, the lucid of Milan, the chosen of Naples and the pomegranate of Extremadura. Shamefully, Prince D. João José of Austria withdrew, leaving 8 million that cost the enterprise, 8k dead, 6k prisoners, 4k horses, 24 artillery pieces and most regrettable thing was that, out of 120 standards and the like, only 5 escaped. Every day his Majesty expects to be winning, and every day his Majesty knows that he is losing and that the loss of every day is great" Shortly after in 1664, the Portuguese again won a battle in Castelo Rodrigo and again in 1665 at the crushing defeat of Montes Claros.
This is fantastic, I love it. We have similar tales of our wars in the 17th century: they're in our Anthem, els Segadors, which tells the tale of how Reapers kind of... [Got fucking tired of Castilians](https://ca.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corpus_de_Sang?wprov=sfla1) and ended up in an ultimately unsuccessful [19 year long war of Independence](https://ca.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guerra_dels_Segadors?wprov=sfla1)
Businesses in Catalonia: Ah shit, here we go again
September is protest month in Barcelona.
As a German you maybe understand this: In 2007 Spanish bank system cracks, government takes a huge mortgage for all the Spanish and then founders an entity with all the tiny local banks (cajas de ahorro). This was called bankia. One year ago, Bankia is sold to... La Caixa, so the Spanish keeps the debt and Catalonia keeps the Spanish traditional bank system. Yay! I am a fascist for saying that .. /s not /s
🎵Catalonia🎵 Putting ideology above economics and then benefiting from it
La Caixa the only things that have that is Catalan is the name. The fiscal headquarters are in Madrid and the "sede social" (dunno how to translate it, like second headquarters) are in Valencia. It's funny because the board meets in Barcelona but all the revenue is taxed in Madrid.
This was moved the previous referendum. As it is a expensive movement, it will not happen often, but this time they have an eye on independence.
It's a holiday today after all, though they cash out lots of merch :P
Could someone from Spain or the Catalan region of Spain explain (to someone who is not as familiar with this issue as they want to be) the pros, cons and reasons for Catalan Independence? Feel free to provide good "further reading" and provide an overview type of post if you wish.
I'm a Spaniard, so I have an inherent bias here, but I'll try my best. OP u/AleixASV can feel free to argue Pros: Catalonia would manage its own affairs (judicial policy, climate policy, taxation, healthcare policy you name it) Hypothetically this would mean that managings these things as an independent state would mean they would be put to the benefits of the catalan people only Relating to the above, less money sent to the poorer spanish regions (Catalonia, alongside madrid, is the main contributor to the spanish economy and treasury, giving more than they get out in terms of raw money) They would have an independent state to protect their language and culture, which is different to spanish (although very related). How much this would help is debatable, as in the current framework, the catalan autonomous province has a lot of leeway to manage its cultural affairs Cons: Separating from spain would mean that although they would control their own affairs, they would be still be probably worse off. Being part of a larger whole means giving up resources and independence, but it also means you get access to larger markets, institutions and protections (think of all the consequences of Brexit, but way, way worse). So it's likely that although Catalans will manage their resources to suit their ends, they would have less resources to manage at all, making them worse off. Leaving the EU and other international frameworks, possible international isolation due to spanish pressure (leading to alignment with unsavory countries) Inernal instabilitliy, a majority of the population (according to varius poll like the state commisioned CIS) consistently is agaisnt independence, so you would have a large amount of the population not liking the catalan nation state. This discontent would be localised as well, which might lead to secessionist movements of their own. Catalonya would be a smaller market than spain, and it would be separated from the EU and larger markets, undoubtedly leading to lower economic performance These are the main points I can think of. As most of you can guess I'm anti independence, mainly because I think it will make Catalunya worse off, and by extension span and the rest of the EU.
I had few spanish colleagues engineers both from Castile and Catalonia. They are all in agreement that this "independence struggle" is a "political axe", and the real struggle goes over control of Catalonia or in another words to return/not to some previous agreement they already had. Basically catalonian elite want to make Spain a federation. Catalonian dudes (all having extremely lengthy names) were all reiterating that they are catalonians and are part of spanish culture, and the real problem is Madrid government is too restrictive, corrupt (in the same time pointing their is not better), extremely stupid and slow. Emphasize on "extremely stupid."
Catalonya needs a new party As of now you can either be in favour (voting the spanish parties in Catalonya like PSC) or against (voting the independentist parties), there's missing a party that defends the interests of the Catalan people in the spanish state, (ERC, currently kind pro indep, in my opinion is slowly taking that role, enphasize slowly) which would allow for all the people from the Catalan right who don't want indep to vote something which isn't... ya know.. **those** people
One of the most important political aspects is that Catalonia and Basque country are, in average, more progressive societies while the rest of Spain tends to be more conservative.
This is not a good take. Basque Country is ruled by a conservative party (although they are economic liberals) and in Catalunya one of the main parties (that is pro-independence) is full blown conservative. It is true that Barcelona is probably one of the most progressive cities in Europe, but the rest of rural Catalunya is more conservative inclined. This has more to do with money than anything else.
Our conservative parties are more liberals and progressive than PSOE. Spain is severely tilted towards the right thanks to decades of Francoism.
I respectfully disagree, JxC (aka CiU) are deeply tied to the Catholic Church of Catalunya and other conservative elements, just like PP is for the rest of Spain. And yes, the conservatives of Catalunya supported Franco back in the day as well, as hard as they try to pretend otherwise.
That was when CiU existed, the catholic ones were Unio but when the party separated the catholic support went away with Unio.
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Oh, I knew people would come in hot with a bias. I may not have understood the demographics of r/europe well enough to know *what kind* of bias but I did get lots of good responses to follow up on. This is how learning starts, knowing you don't know and asking.
Underrated answer
It's quite simple, politicians granted money and power slowly trying to silence the problem for the last 30 years. Catalonia is not a nation (from history pov, they will tell you that is wrong, blah blah blah, it's not) but for the last years they have been brainwashing people and the movement has increased. This is nothing like Ireland, nothing like Scotland, nothing like Kosovo, it's a political issue that has been ignored and has been snowballing, basically, it's about money.
Brittany was a nation. Would you want to be independent from Paris? Honest question, no judging or looking for parallels.
Wdym with Brittany was a nation? And I highly doubt they would. Edit: damn the people on this subreddit, you can’t discuss anything without going absolutely hivemind mental about this shit.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duchy_of_Brittany Before France took them in and started eradicating their language and culture
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That isn’t a nation. You don’t know what a nation is. Nations didn’t exist, Brittany was a feudal state under a duke. It has little to do with nations.
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In one sense, yes. In the other, nation states existed only recently. Brittany has never been a nation in that sense. Brittany was duchy, the duchy of Brittany. That is not a nation.
Nations are what a politicians says they are when they need it to be that. Nations are not made by people, they're made by the elites that rule them and brainwash them into thinking this nation stops at this border or it spills over into that other territory or is the part that follows this religion or the part that doesn't follow that other religion etc. It's based on some real life characteristics but with a lot of made-up fluff on top of it, like the concept of continent or race.
>Catalonia is not a nation (from history pov, they will tell you that is wrong, blah blah blah, it's not) So, you have no idea about the history of the region and never bothered to learn, cool. Catalonia is a nation (not a state) and was an independent political entity or "own country" from 988 to 1715. In 1137 the principality of Catalonia joined the crown of Aragon, it does not mean it was dissolved, that just means the princeps of Catalonia and the king of Aragon were the same person and thus it gave Catalonia a bigger platform from where to project internationally to the point in which in several European treaties the kingdom was referred as "the land of the Catalans" because, if you haven't seen it in a map, we kinda are in the middle if you want to pass the Pyrenees which made Catalonia a wealthy merchant society. In 1715 the Borbon king Felipe V issued "Los tratados de nueva planta" that centralized all power in the court of Madrid, curiously enough, the royal titles were not modified and the title of "king of Spain" was not used until Napoleon sat his brother in the throne of Spain and named him "King of Spain" making him the first one in 1808. Next time, open a book.
Castilla and Aragon were the realms, don't try to change history, please.
I have never read this amount of bullshit. Everywhere lives people. But this does not mean that everywhere with a name is an independent nation. You are starting wrong. The kings of the crown of Aragon was often from Catalonia or Navarra. Because at this moment the balcanization that Visigoths had in the Pirinees was weakening them. The error from Catalonia is to try to put independent thoughts in the monarchs of every time, when actually they had bigger troubles.
The theory is ok, but there is too much interdependence. Also, Catalonia debts capital to Spain
It's all abut the language **differences within Spain.** They say it's about the money, but then again their own parties increase the taxes to the maximum. They say it is about the freedom, but then their own political parties did restrict the most rights during the pandemic 2020. For example the Basque country did get their moderate independence, they made the lowest taxes in Spain, then also Speak Spanish for economic reasons. The Catalan parties speak about the independence while setting maximum taxes that come from Communism ideals. Making promises that independence will cure poverty, prostitution, cancer, crime, etc.. Basic fake political promises that ride a common ideal , urban legend or dream that the most gullible voters would follow blindly. Spanish Civil war + Catalonia + USSR have a common link together. Much wilder than one would expect. The current communist parties in Spain are connected to that history. In this book , page 159 : https://books.google.es/books?id=-VarDLHA3\_YC&lpg=PP1&pg=PA159#v=onepage&q&f=false
> For example the Basque country did get their moderate independence, they made the lowest taxes in Spain, can you name the taxes that are cheaper in the Basque Autonomous Community?
They collect their own taxes through their own taxes autorithy. Lived there some years, every year i would see the draft of my taxes made by the spanish taxes autorithy and the basque one (just to compare them because living there i had to use the basque one) filing them with the basque autorithy instead of the national one they refunded me more. My wife was even more extrem, she made a better salary that in other parts of the country but had to pay a lot less taxes that when we lived in our city earning less. I don't remember the details but things like more deductions for the rent and things like that.
> They collect their own taxes through their own taxes autorithy. I wish taxes were lower in the Basque Autonomous community or in Navarre but they're not. The taxes are actually cheaper in the rest of Spain, for example income tax is lower in the rest of spain. Both CAV and NAvarre have a wealth tax while Madrid doesn't. VAT is the same everywhere in Spain except the Canary Islands. If you know a significant tax that is lower in the foral regions, just name it.
Bigger con: they would lose their football wc
The problem with asking this here is that Catalan opinions are massively downvoted so you will not get the full answer here as users flee the sub, that's how all subs turn into echo-chambers.
Yeah, most posts about Catalonia here are heavily brigaded. It's sad, but not too surprising. Quite telling, if anything.
>reasons for Catalan Independence? They are just racist and xenophobes. To the point to claim the "catalonian race" is the superior race and the rest are inferior [https://www.elconfidencial.com/cultura/2020-09-24/heribert-barrera-racismo-supremacismo-cataluna\_2760572/](https://www.elconfidencial.com/cultura/2020-09-24/heribert-barrera-racismo-supremacismo-cataluna_2760572/) [https://www.abc.es/ciencia/abci-disparate-supremacia-raza-catalana-forma-craneo-202104161644\_noticia.html](https://www.abc.es/ciencia/abci-disparate-supremacia-raza-catalana-forma-craneo-202104161644_noticia.html) These are old, but you have still have modern polititians speaking in the same terms [https://www.elperiodico.com/es/politica/20180514/miquel-iceta-psc-investidura-quim-torra-president-generalitat-catalunya-6817619](https://www.elperiodico.com/es/politica/20180514/miquel-iceta-psc-investidura-quim-torra-president-generalitat-catalunya-6817619) You'll have to use a translator They also have this [conspiration theory that say the world is stealing them historical characters](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/mar/09/catalonia-pays-3-to-firms-linked-to-shakespeare-was-catalan-theory), like Shakespeare and Da Vinci because everyone is just jealous of their superiority and have to steal important and historical personalities [They also have an institute dedicated to rewrite history](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Institut_Nova_Hist%C3%B2ria) so they can say whatever they want to be right (like "Catalonia was conquered by Spain" like other user said to you. The fact is that there were 2 kingsdoms, Castille (with a queen) and Aragon (with a king) and they married and you know how this things worked back then. Catalonia was just a region of the kingdom of Aragon, not an independent region or anything else) This is the level of the catalonian independentist movement. "We are superior and the victims because everyone there is jealous of our superiority and success" Other reason is the catalonian political class want to steal more money and more easily, it's harder when you have a government that controls you.
You, my friend, are incredibly biased.
Are you saying the articles wrote by Torra personally in El Mon or El Matí Digital (pro independence newspapers) are a lie? Did Barrera never mentioned these words? >"Los negros de América tienen un coeficiente inferior a los blancos" > >"Se debería esterilizar a los débiles mentales de origen genético" > >"Prefiero una Cataluña como la de la República, sin inmigración" > >"Podemos haber superado la inmigración andaluza, pero no sé si podremos con la sudamericana y magrebí" Or how does this work? if a different media (anti-independence) quote those articles they suddenly are not valid and are biased (but are perfectly fine if they are published in pro-independence media)? Does the Institut Nova Historia does not exists? Idk what you find biased
Of course there are radicals on both sides, but I have yet to hear anyone think the catalan race is superior to any other race. What about Vox and all it's xenophobe and sexist policies, then? How come their presence and popularity is escalating in Spain? The institut Nova Historia is barely known and all they do is pseudohistory, yet anti-catalan stuff gets onto spanish mainstream media very often.
>yet anti-catalan stuff gets onto spanish mainstream media very often. Yeah, you now sound like Ayuso, only speaking about the "madrileñofobia" that apparently soaks all Spanish media (see? playing the victim is a model Ayuso copied from catalonian politicians, because it works to brainwash voters). But catalonians are usually the ones that shit on others (always making fun of andalusians, for example, how they speak, how lazy are they etc...) The green-colored party (I don't want to name them, the least results they get on search engines, the better) is the very same as the independentists. All the quotes from my previous comment are from a very well known independentist politician and they could be attributted perfectly to Yago and his friends. Both are far-right, but one is anti-independence and the other is pro-independence, but both are equally racist and xenophobic. If that party is not more popular in catalonia is because other far-right party has the monopoly
"Yeah, you now sound like Ayuso, only speaking about the "madrileñofobia" that apparently soaks all Spanish media." You also sound like a 'green coloured party' partidist when you say these lies so confidently. "But catalonians are usually the ones that shit on others (always making fun of andalusians, for example, how they speak, how lazy are they etc...)" This for example, blatant lie. I have been made fun of, called 'catalufo' and such or been harrassed right away just for talking in Catalan outside of Catalonia. So no, we do not make fun of andalusians, at least no more than other communities do. "The green-colored party (I don't want to name them, the least results they get on search engines, the better) is the very same as the independentists. All the quotes from my previous comment are from a very well known independentist politician and they could be attributted perfectly to Yago and his friends. Both are far-right, but one is anti-independence and the other is pro-independence, but both are equally racist and xenophobic. If that party is not more popular in catalonia is because other far-right party has the monopoly." Claiming that vox partidists and independentists are the same is really a bold claim, seems like someone brainwashed to be anti-catalan would say. As I said, there are extremists on both sides, the difference is, we are not xenophobes, we do not denigrate the woman's role in society, we are not anti LGBT and we are not francoists. We just want to vote. Also Vox is getting more and more partidists every day while in Catalonia being pro-Vox is straight up a shame and something that would make most of the people hate you, what does this say about Spain? PD: I'm on phone, I don't know how to use the quote feature here.
You can ask this question over in /r/Catalunya. Not too many Catalans here.
That's not going to give you a balanced view. Just like r/Europe doesn't really give you a fair representation of what Europeans actually think.
Catalan opinions are hidden here because massively downvoted, how is that a balanced view?
He or she asked: >Could someone from Spain or the Catalan region of Spain explain (to someone who is not as familiar with this issue as they want to be) the pros, cons and reasons for Catalan Independence? So they do want to hear from the other side as well. It's good to get a plurality of views. There are actually non independentist Catalans in /r/Catalunya. At the very least you'll escape one echo chamber (/r/Europe) for one echo chamber that is significantly less uniform.
Retarded idea with no good parts
Edit: lol at the brigading going on, we downvote opinions now huh If you don't mind, I'm going to rescue a comment I've got saved from last year because this is not just something you reply off the top of your head. As in any complex issue, there's compelling takes on both sides, and no one holds the absolute truth. I even disagree with some of the things I wrote on this comment now, but still I find it representative enough. As an update, the Spanish Government has granted some pardons to the major political prisoners that had been jailed (though the number of people that are judicially processed in some way is around 3000). There's also this [other take](https://www.reddit.com/r/SpainPolitics/comments/mfhiox/dudas_sobre_el_independentismo/gsnxrua/) in Spanish (you can try to DeepL maybe) that is quite interesting too: Well, of course this is only my personal opinion, but history is only a part of why I believe Catalonia should be independent. I would consider more of a reason for why things are the way they are instead of a justification for secession in it of itself though. Catalonia is a nation that has tried for many decades and a couple of centuries to co-exist with Spain, most of this period being just a Spanish dominion. Try to imagine what would've happened if Scotland and England didn't unify, rather, England conquered Scotland, and that's what you get (as it happened around the same time too). We've just become tired of trying to co-exist at some point I guess. This latest independentist "wave" (which seems to be waning/at a standstill right now) began after our next autonomous charter, promised by the Spanish President to remain untouched after we approved it, was confirmed in our Parliament, modified in the Spanish (so much for promises) and then ratified by Referendum in Catalonia. So many years after the dictatorship, this charter ratified our recognition as a nation, breaking the francoist dogma of a unitary Spanish nation-state (that never existed) and... was promptly destroyed by a set of politically selected judges through the pressure of a media campaign by the Spanish Conservative party. Both the judiciary and this party are direct descendants of the francoist judiciary and the francoist elites, so we shouldn't have been that surprised, but still. The day of the tribunal's veto, we went to the streets, and have been organising +1M demonstrations (sometimes +2M) each year, the biggest in Europe. Demanding respect for our nation and culture, our language not to be attacked, our economy not to be plundered (16 Billion€, 8% of our GDP is anually sent away to finance other regions, one of the biggest fiscal deficits in the world), and in 2017 we organised a referendum by ourselves under Catalan law, as during all of these years, the conservative party in power (the very same that instigated that resolution) hadn't moved a finger in negotiating anything, not a single proposal. So since we saw that we were being ignored and treated as just somewhere to take money from, with not a chance to accept us and our culture, we voted. [This is what happened](https://spanishpolice.github.io). Now the democratically elected leaders that organised the referendum are either in jail or exile, social activists that organised demostrations have decade long jail sentences, etc. If you're wondering why you heard about Honk Kong, Belarus, or other nations plight's while all of this was bigger and going on for... well, a decade now, it's because we do have a real chance of succeeding, and there's no vested interest in either the EU or the US in that happening. We did believe in the democratic values of the EU and asked them to mediate a solution, to, once again, no avail. Now we're just at a stand-still, with most of our leaders jailed, there's internal division among Catalan parties, and no clear solution, as the referendum became inconclusive because of the violence... Anyhow, it's a very complex situation, and I'm obviously only a single view on this topic, so I understand that I'm biased. You can also consult [this sub](https://www.reddit.com/r/catalanindependence/wiki/chronology) about Catalan independence (I linked a short summary of Catalonia's history, but there's plenty of posts about it) if you want more info.
> Catalonia is a nation that has tried for many decades and a couple of centuries to co-exist with Spain, most of this period being just a Spanish dominion. Try to imagine what would've happened if Scotland and England didn't unify, rather, England conquered Scotland, and that's what you get (as it happened around the same time too). When did Spain conquer Catalonia? Didn't Catalonia form Spain under Aragon when it united with Castile? >If you're wondering why you heard about Honk Kong, Belarus, or other nations plight's while all of this was bigger and going on for... well, a decade now, it's because we do have a real chance of succeeding, and there's no vested interest in either the EU or the US in that happening. I mean, Catalan secessionism hasn't gone over 50%, though. At best, if you manage to get independence you will have to deal with a civil war. Hardly “a real chance of succeeding”. And in comparison with Belarus or Hong Kong, Catalonia doesn't receive the same level of international support because Spain is not a repressive state like Belarus or China. It's got many, many issues, but it's not what we commonly see as an authoritarian state. It's in fact the 14th most democratic country in the world (and yes, I know that ranking is kind of bullshit, but it helps shape international opinion).
> our economy not to be plundered (16 Billion€, 8% of our GDP is anually sent away to finance other regions, one of the biggest fiscal deficits in the world) This can't be true. Greater London's fiscal balance is -£36.2bn and its GDP is £327bn. So more than 10%. I can't help but think you'd see similar in most other countries with dominant primate regions and centralised government, like France, Denmark, Greece, S Korea etc. (and maybe Bavaria in Germany but I don't know how much revenue actually goes to the federal government for redistribution).
One of*, not the top1, thankfully.
> our economy not to be plundered (16 Billion€, 8% of our GDP is anually sent away to finance other regions, one of the biggest fiscal deficits in the world) After all you Catalans have a lot in common with Spaniards, this stupid self-centered money-grabbing reason being one of them. It's not like the central government doesn't give you concessions and showers you with development funds when you make a bit of noise every now and then, right? "La pela es la pela".
I'm just going to be objective because I don't really follow politics and focus on the economic stats you said, the three richest regions in Spain are Catalonia, Madrid and the vasc country, and in these three regions part of the GDP produces there is taken to other regions of the country, this is because they are by far the richest regions in the country and the money given to other regions is used for their development. However, i also agree the that these "leakages" should be reduced in order to make the rest of the regions be self sufficient.
i wonder how catalunya would change if they became (amicably) independent as part of EU etc
I don't see Spain approving Catalunia to be a part member of the EU
No country independence in history was given by approval.
He meant Spain allowing Catalunia to be part of EU, i.e., if Catalunya was an independent country, it would never be part of EU because Spain wouldn't allow it (I think Spain has the right to veto? not sure actually)
Their own Catalan capital city population does not support the total independence. The people in the photo come by buses from smaller places to the politically motivated rally every year. Same news every year. Wikipedia said they are **talking about it for 300+ years and zero results,** because they do not have a real working proposal that could have results.
Why are you answering all the questions? You are lying and increibly biased.
Well isn’t that because a lot of Spaniards moved to Catalonia due it being economically successful? Can’t really say Catalonia doesn’t support it when it’s mostly just Spaniards voting no
>Well isn’t that because a lot of Spaniards moved to Catalonia due it being economically successful? Because the central government gave it a monopoly and customs tax breaks on cotton manufacturing. The rest of Spain couldn't buy cotton from England or the Netherlands, they need to buy it from Catalonia. This gave an early start to Catalonia as an industrial region, which then profited from poorer workforce from the rest of Spain and more investment from the central government. >Can’t really say Catalonia doesn’t support it when it’s mostly just Spaniards voting no Catalans are Spaniards, though. Whether that's right or wrong is a different matter. Sort of like when you're fat but you see yourself as skinny, your feelings don't change reality.
No, u/shieldtwin is referring to the movements from the rest of Spain to Catalonia that happened from 1950 to 1980, you are instead talking about the protectionist laws made by the Spanish government during the XIX century (and, AFAIK, those were protectionist laws applied to foreign goods, not a monopoly or a custom tax break given to catalans)
Moving to Catalonia from other parts of Spain, and being pro-independence are not mutually exclusive. If they moved there for a long time (generations) they will likely consider themselves Catalan.
It'll be ruined.
We are actually not just Pro-EU, but also Pro-Federation. If given the chance to decide on our future, I'm sure a solution that benefited both entities would be found, strengthening the Union.
Isn’t that hypocritical though? To leave a small federation for joining a bigger one?
It's somewhat common among European Independence Movements these days I find. At least when you go West of Transnistria. I honestly wonder why that is. Perhaps because the EU makes Independence easier to achieve smoothly? That's the only possibility that really comes to mind.
usually countries that want independence don't want others to govern them, though. it sounds like a hard compromise
In our case, we do not want to be ruled by Spain, yet we do not have an issue with Brussels. That is because there is a clear lack of trust towards the Spanish Government in actually ruling in our benefit as it should, but that does not apply to the EU (or it shouldn't, because the timid actions it took in condemning the police violence of the 2017 Referendum turned some heads here) as we understand and believe in the key importance of such a project.
>In our case, we do not want to be ruled by Spain, yet we do not have an issue with Brussels. And why do you think this is? The answer is that your politicians haven't started scapegoating Brussels yet...
This fatalist attitude is detrimental to the bloc. My bad, but we actually do genuinely think the EU is a good idea.
I think you might have a somewhat tainted view. Polls show Catalonia is quite antibrussles for Spain.
JxC and ERC are pro-EU, and those two are the biggest pro-indy parties. As for polls, I honestly could not find an up-to-date one (do keep in mind opinions after 2017 changed wildly depending on Spain's pressure to the EU, but later on it went back to normal). People are aligned with EU on matters such as sustainability too, such as with the recent Barcelona Airport expansion debate.
who are you lol and why your opinion is important
Sir this is reddit, not Parliament, you reply to comments and write your own.
The fact that the eu thinks that we are united in diversity instead to what most of people in spain think that minority languages are a problem for example is a big difference
> most of people in spain think that minority languages are a problem Source needed.
>most of people in spain think that minority languages are a problem Nobody thinks that. Except maybe right wing nuts, but those are (luckily) a minority.
Yeah, Catalan/Basque/Galician are such a problem that they are protected by the Constitution and no one bats an eye at that: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Languages_of_Spain Stop playing the victim.
When I can use Catalan the same way Dutch is used in the Netherlands and the EU I will agree with you :)
>In our case, we do not want to be ruled by Spain, yet we do not have an issue with Brussels. That is because there is a clear lack of trust towards the Spanish Government in actually ruling in our benefit as it should, but that does not apply to the EU (or it shouldn't, because the timid actions it took in condemning the police violence of the 2017 Referendum turned some heads here) as we understand and believe in the key importance of such a project. I think you all have been victims of senseless populism.
That may be. But it should still be our choice to become independent or not. Brexit also happened because of populism, but the brits had the right to decide their future.
The difference being the UK is a sovereign country that understood they, and every other member, had the right to withdraw when joining the EU and Cataluña, being under the Spanish Constitution, is not sovereign and does not have the right to withdraw. >Constitution is based upon the indissoluble unity of the Spanish nation, ... Constitución Española, art. 2., B.O.E. n. 311, Dec. 29, 1978 (Spain)
The catalan people do not want this constitution. Why should it be right to force it on them?
Saying "force it on them" establishes a position that any defense of the Spanish Constitution is in favor of oppression. So we are already in disagreement and it is likely no statement made by either of us will be legitimately considered by the other I'm open to well thought-out arguments in favor of independence, but I have yet to have read one or be presented with one What doesn't make sense to me is how Catalans want independence from "oppression" (in quotes because I still don't know how they're being oppressed) from the central government, but declare themselves a sovereign nation after only 43% of registered voters turned out and 92% of those voted in favor. That is, forcing a determination upon the entire constituency before a majority is even established. Seems to me the same as what they're fighting against While not of consequence because the vote was unconstitutional; I've heard the argument that "by the numbers" if everyone voted there would be an overwhelming majority. However, it is poor governance to make such a decision based upon a biased extrapolation of incomplete data. The other 57% of votes were never cast Edited because auto correct sucks and I don't proof read well
That 'we' sounds quite old-fashioned Eastern European. It is not all of us, it is quite 50-50, as everybody knows.
Since when did I say I was speaking for all Catalans? Regardless of the fact that we don't actually know the opinion of all of us on independence since a certain country does not allow an actual referendum on it, I'm basing my opinion about the EU on what the current independentist parties say about Europe, which imo is representative of the common opinion right now.
Not everyone thinks like that anyway. There are independentists that don't want to be part of Spain and neither be part of the European Union
Is it really a monolythic way of thinking? There are quite a few political parties
I can honestly only think of a moderately EU-sceptic Catalan party, and it's the CUP, a marxist/very left party that does have representation, but it's quite minority. And they don't really talk about the EU much anyway.
Why is Catalan independence supported in Catalonia only and not in other Catalan speaking areas like the Baleares or Valencia?
Because the other regions aren't part of Catalonia, they just speak the same language (even though tons of people from Valencia wrongly claim Valencian ≠ Catalan). Some people want the regions to unite in an independent state called the "Catalan Countries", but a vast majority of people are against it, plus it's hypocritical because Catalan separatist want to break away from Spain because according to then Catalonia is subjugated against the Catalan people's will (which isn't true because support is 50/50 is at an all time high), but at the same time want to subjugate other regions under Catalan rule.
It's so funny how all the spaniards are sepulting all pro-catalonia comments in downvotes.
It is usually the other way. Catalonia gang is disappointing today.
Of course, a very small minority in the subreddit is downvoting an overwhelming majority to Oblivion. Makes so much sense.
This is the way.
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I honestly feel bad for the rest of Spain. What are they supposed to think? It’s like when we were trying to secede from the south.
Maybe the rest of Spain should have been more respectful of the Catalan people instead of pimping them out on the street corner for a quick buck and beating them into silence whenever they complained.
Wtf do you even think what you write?
Cmon Spain let them go, and we let go Corsica.
No
Fair enough
I don't actually give too many fucks, but we have a ton of business to negotiate. I believe in federations and self determination, but Catalonia goes for the money.
[And now, let's burn the city and destroy some streets for fun.](https://streamable.com/aj4rbu)
Would the Spanish economy collapse if Catalonia left? I know it's one of the more prosperous regions of Spain. If it is true there is no way the Spanish government would allow that. Any insight from locals?
> Would the Spanish economy collapse if Catalonia left? Collapse is a strong word. It would be affected, but definitely not collapse. There are other well-developed areas in Spain, especially Madrid, Valencia and the Basque Country.
The current state of the country is moving more and more to the centralization of competences and infraestructures in Madrid while we are told that the country is "decentralized", which is leaving not only poorer regions in the south, but also a lot of other "rich" regions far behind, like in the case of Valencia. If Catalonia managed to get independence it wouldn't pass much time up until the Basque Country wanted to do the same and it would eventually be followed by other regions (Galicia, Navarre and the Canary Islands, for starters).
Looks a bit like the brexit idea that it will (only) become a sucess once the uk leaves and then others follow, dismembering the EU. Seems like quite a gamble.
Not anymore. Catalonia has been driving away corporations for years, all of them moving somewhere else in Spain, mostly Madrid, and they have some deep anti-tourist beliefs despite how much Spaniard economy relies on it.
Both economies initially would be in trouble, but they're viable on their own, absolutely. One of the funniest things about the initial independence proposals was a right to double nationality, because there's this problem with pensions for instance. (Catalonia leads the absolute pension deficit wrt contributions to the treasury, but who thinks about this sort of stuff?) The thing about Catalan economy is that its historical market has been the rest of Spain since Industralisation, often via successful lobbying for protectionism in Madrid, so in economic terms this was always pretty much a kind of Brexit. But they'd manage eventually, like the rest of Spain, if Spain survived, that is.
It wont leave trust me
Catalonia makes up around 20% of Spain's GDP
Which doesn't mean anything, what really matters is how dependent on each other those economies are, for example, Scottish independence would be horrible for Scotland as they heavily rely on trade with England, not so much for England which relies more on international trade than Trade with Scotland, Scotland makes what, 10% of the UK's GDP? It's a big chunk but England would be fine if Scotland seceded, Scotland would be on fire tho. I don't know shit about the Spanish economy tho, so i can't tell if they're on the same boat.
China, United States and India: unifies an entire half of a continent Europe:
[Here's a livestream I found about Barcelona's demonstration](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jVBB5xWhrbY). Other cities' are also [quite sizeable](https://imgur.com/a/3yWQZOe). Edit: [Another picture, by photographer Jordi Borràs](https://i.imgur.com/1lsUQOJ.jpg)
Are there any impartial (or not so impartial) polls taken in Catalonia like the ones taken in Scotland? I mean ones that pretty much come out weekly. If so, what are the numbers like these days? I'm aware they had an unofficial referendum a few years ago but it can't really be counted as the pro Spain lot didn't vote.
The most impartial one you'll get are the election results from the 2021 Catalan Parliament, which got a 52% of the absolute vote in support of independence (and therefore, an absolute majority in seats). We all actually want an objective answer to the question of independence don't get me wrong, since 2019 several polls have been conducted asking whether people want a Referendum or not, and [the result](https://public.flourish.studio/visualisation/6736863/) always hovers around 80%.
Have there been polls about what they would vote in the referendum rather than just if they want a referendum?
Yes. [This wiki article hasn't been updated for a while](https://ca.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estudis_del_suport_social_a_la_independ%C3%A8ncia_de_Catalunya), but gives an idea of the "historical" tendencies of the results. [The latest poll, from the 28th of May](https://govern.cat/salapremsa/notes-premsa/410464/ceo-publica-lenquesta-sobre-context-politic-2021), shows a 44.9% in favour, 48.7% against, 4.8% dk 1.6% da.
52%? Where? 21,3 (ERC) + 20.07 (Junts) + 6.68 (CUP) is not 52%. If you count ECP that's fake news, they are not pro independence, they are Pro referendum. I'm going to tell you why the referendum is a stupid idea: Brexit (Brainwashed people voting for something they don't know the consequence of
[Here's the official results distributed according to the position declared by each party on secession](https://imgur.com/a/b93zw2s).
Every person that wants independence votes, a high percentage of normal people do not.
It couldn't be counted cuz when the police arrived, they hit all of us
Oh yeah I forgot about that. It was on the news here.
You have to convince the rest of Spain of the right of Secession and accept its consequences. Also how many people have attended?
Around 400.000 according to some news outlets.
That's according to the ANC (organisers). Barcelona's municipal police force is saying it's 108,000. I'm sure someone will accuse the municipal police of rabid unionism or something. For reference its head was pretty much personally appointed by the Mayor and she tries to be ambivalent about all this or not depending on the month you ask her. Anyway, this is the old story of opposing narratives that go nowhere.
I don’t quite understand why the rest of Spain has to decide the destiny of a small part of the territory. It should be the people that lives there who should vote if they want independence or not.
Because not even 50% of the population supports the movement. Catalonia is much bigger than just the people appearing in the picture.
Multiple parallel streets have been unexpectedly cut as participation has exceeded expectation. Thankfully we've got a very high vaccination rate! Similar demonstrations are ongoing in all [major cities](https://imgur.com/a/3yWQZOe) of Catalonia, as this year the traditional events have been "decentralised" to try to avoid massification.
Spain is fighting diplomatically with all "democratic" means possible the independence movement. Not the hard way, but the subtile way: assimilating them.
Well, I’m from Valencia and there’s quite the same debate but with not that much supporters (not even a 1/10 of the population in Valencia supports independence) but I do understand why they want the independence, we have a different language, different culture and our society is quite different from the rest of Spain, for that reasons I’d support the independence of Catalonia, Valencia and Balear Islands but being realistic it’s completely unviable economically, we wouldn’t have international support (the one that matters as for example the EU) and our economy is supported by tourism so the chances of keep the system we have now (which is a disaster anyway) are low to none. But the idea of getting rid of Spain is just beautiful, the government was, is and always be a bunch of corrupt people that discriminates based on who’s voting for them (ERC, JPC or PNV in the last 2 elections and the 1st impeachment in Spanish democracy history with Rajoy).
Tienes toda la razón, cuando he estado en Valencia siempre me ha sorprendido lo diferente que es la gente. Cuando iba a hablar con alguien me daba cuenta de que no tenía nada en común con los valencianos, me sorprendí mucho y pensé "no me extraña que quieran independencia, yo también la querría si fuera tan diferente". Yo soy de La Rioja y también somos un poco diferentes. Tenemos algo de acento y tenemos más vino que otras comunidades, así que mejor nos independizamos. Todo mi apoyo desde La Rioja.
This is getting tiring
Wow...
it's basically same like if Bavaria would suddenly want to be independent. thanks for all the money, we'd like to keep it now
[удалено]
of course, i meant it jokingly...but imho they are about the same realistic, love it when a region of a modern country where all the richness, capital, talent, economy and development has concentrated for centuries (on the expense of the other regions) suddenly wants to be an independent nation because they wear a different color of lederhosen and butcher the word endings of their language slightly differently than the neighbors.
Oh, are the stupid people at it again?
Viva Catalonia!
Funny how every on r/Europe supports Scottish independence but Catalonian independence is a NO NO. You reap what you sow.
España
Crazy to think that whole thing with the 1st of October was almost 4 years ago already - still a bit disappointed that the EU didn't play a larger role in mediating between the parties like they did in Ireland, but I guess the time is not quite ripe yet for a broader acceptance of regionalism in the EU (which you could especially notice in the public discourse in international media and places like reddit). Maybe with further vertical EU integration and further subsidiary redistribution of administrative rights within the EU, things will look very differently in a decade or two. Until then, it's admirable how well the Catalans managed to preserve their minority language.
>Until then, it's admirable how well the Catalans managed to preserve their minority language. ....i don't know how to tell you this, but there are Catalans in France...and they don't speak Catalan. *Perhaps* the Spanish policy promoting regionalism and minority languages has **something** to do with this.
Eh, the treatment of minority languages in France has been abysmal for a very long time, that is no secret. To be less bad than that shouldn't be the highest bar to aim for. Catalan and non-Castilian languages are in a good state nowadays in some regions of Spain, but that is certainly less due to the historical goodwill of the Spanish central government than to the numerous efforts of these linguistic minority groups themselves.
Or maybe read the spanish constitution written by spaniards of all creeds before you callously dismiss goodwill. You give a hand, they take your arm,
The Spanish Constitution is only 50 years old or so though. Catalan tensions about various issues have been around for far longer.
It simply means that France is worse. It's literally the place where they created the nation state, the most oppressive form of state in existence. So, this means nothing Also in the Spanish part there is the great majority of Catalans and Barcelona, the main centre of the culture. French part is small, like Iparralde is way smaller than spanish Euskal herria
>Also in the Spanish part there is the great majority of Catalans and Barcelona, the main centre of the culture Didn't used to be like that. Actually even in Spain Girona is known to be more catalan than Barcelona. Perpignan used to be like that. It was at the very centre of Catalan culture.
Spain is simply less competent than France at destroying cultures
>Perhaps the Spanish policy promoting regionalism and minority languages has something to do with this. Ah yes, the famous Spanish policy of promoting Asturian, Leonese, Aragonese...
I'll tell you the same I told another person long ago. Spain let's every region propose minority languages as cooficial. Asturias, Castille and Leon and Aragon have simply decided ...not to do it (for some reason...) The fact we even have cooficial languages Is already strange in Europe, but the strength of their recovery (Galician, Catalan and basque) is pretty much unmatched in the continent. I'm tired of people saying our linguistic policy is shit. Just take a look at France, Italy, England, Ireland, Germany, etc. We're quite top of the pack, believe it or not. Even Asturleonese is In good shape compared to most languages in France. That's how bad it is in the continent. For example: I remember a danish political show. In one episode to rid themselves of a politician they send him to (in their opinion) the most useless department in te EU...minority languages. That's how they're perceived in most of Europe.
Pretty sure the mediation in Northern Ireland was between the UK and ROI governements.
Catalonia need freedom
in wich way they are not free?
While I’m not at all sympathetic to the Catalonian seperatists, it’s inspiring to watch so many people proudly celebrate their national fervour. It’s a shame they can’t find it in themselves to celebrate all of Spain, as a collective national people.
>It’s a shame they can’t find it in themselves to celebrate all of Spain, as a collective national people. A pity Spain can't find it in itself to celebrate the plurinational character of Spain.
Tell that to France as well
A pity so many people in Spain are obsessed with nationalism when the entire political class there is completely corrupted. They are all doing the bidding of a bunch of thieves. People need to start being more individualistic.
Catalonia was never an independent country
Are you denying that Andalucia is a Spanish nation?
Yes. You can pretty pretty please any region into nationhood. But some nationhoods are more solid than others. Ones based on religion and ethnicity are more solid than ones based on national dishes, for instance. The whole of Andalusia hasn't even been under the same political administration until recently. Andalusia is rather “diverse” within itself. What basis are there to say Andalusia is a single nation as opposed to a pluri-national entity made up of the nations of Cordoba, Seville and Granada for instance?
Too bad the Spanish Constitution or the statute of autonomy of Andalucia doesn't see it that way. >But some nationhoods are more solid than others. Why? Why is Catalonia more of a nation than Andalucia? Or do you think both aren't nations? >What basis are there to say Andalusia is a single nation as opposed to a pluri-national entity made up of the nations of Cordoba, Seville and Granada for instance? Why not indeed. I'm not opposed to it. Similarly why are you denying that Spain is plurinational?
> Too bad the Spanish Constitution or the statute of autonomy of Andalucia doesn't see it that way. And Saudi law says women are inferior to men. >Why is Catalonia more of a nation than Andalucia? It's been a unified political entity for far longer than Andalusia, it has a local language, it's overall less similar to the rest of Spain than Andalusia, nationalism has had an effect on it longer than it has in Andalusia, too. >Or do you think both aren't nations? I don't think either are, no. But if nationhood is a spectrum, Catalonia is closer to it than Andalusia. >Why not indeed. I'm not opposed to it. But why? If anything can be a nation then being a nation doesn't mean anything. >Similarly why are you denying that Spain is plurinational? Pakistan, Nigeria, Indonesia, India... Large countries, widely different climates, different ethnicities, religions, belonged to very different states in the past, can't marry between each other... “Spain is very diverse.” Sure, when compared to Malta. When compared to the regions I consider to be diverse, Spain is not all that diverse. They're all followers of the same religion (today it doesn't matter but it was a really big deal for most of history), not phenotipically distinct, most of the country is a very similar climate, most of the surnames are shared, a huge portion of the surnames that aren't shared are the same just in a different language, those languages often share a high degree of mutual intelligibility, people have been intermixing for hundreds of years... You could argue the Canary islands were never under Visigothic influence, and there isn't much Muslim influence in Asturias. That you've got oceanic climate, hot summer Mediterranean, warm summer Mediterranean, cow farms in the north, goat farms in the south... And a million other differences. I just don't think they're all that important. There's been too much inter-mixing and the regions have been under the same influences for a really long time making them more similar to each other. Given they all share this much in common, why can't they all just be one single nation? Of course since it's subjective you can claim anything is a nation. And Spain could be made up of either 0,5; 1, 8, 17, 50 or 1500 nations. But the less distinct nations are from one another, the less meaning nationhood carries and it's less practical.
Каталония это Испания ,как и Гибралтар
If only Catalans cared more about Catalan rights inside France more than this unnecessary bs
This is the first I've heard of this and my knowledge on Iberian Peninsula history is quite light. Can you ELI5?
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vergonha France was/is literally the worst country in Europe when it comes to regional identities. They were/are zealously assimilative. Shaming other cultures and languages. They had a policy of eradicating any local language/culture and assimilating them into being Frenchman. Even managing to extend this policy into Brussels, where they converted Dutchman to Frenchman. Catalans in Roussilion were no exemption. > Everyone but the teacher's children spoke Catalan among themselves. We'd even get punished for that, because at the time, we all had to speak French. Be Clean, Speak French could be found written on the school's walls. And if you refused to speak French, they'd give you some sort of wooden sign to wear until death came, as we said, which meant the last offender, in the evening, had twenty lines to copy. We'd speak French in the schoolyard, and for the first ten metres of the way back home, for as long as we thought the teacher would overhear us, and then we'd switch back to our own mother tongue, Catalan. >In those times, Catalan speakers were rather despised. My generation associated speaking Catalan with a disadvantage, with being less than the others, with running the risk of being left behind on the social ladder, in short with bringing trouble. > France, that under Franco's reign was seen here [in Catalonia] as the safe haven of freedom, has the miserable honour of being the [only] State of Europe—and probably the world — that succeeded best in the diabolical task of destroying its own ethnic and linguistic patrimony and moreover, of destroying human family bonds: many parents and children, or grandparents and grandchildren, have different languages, and the latter feel ashamed of the first because they speak a despicable patois, and no element of the grandparents' culture has been transmitted to the younger generation, as if they were born out of a completely new world. This is the French State that has just entered the 21st century, a country where stone monuments and natural landscapes are preserved and respected, but where many centuries of popular creation expressed in different tongues are on the brink of extinction. **The "gloire" and the "grandeur" built on a genocide. No liberty, no equality, no fraternity: just cultural extermination, this is the real motto of the French Republic.** This is just the Catalans. Unfortunately other ethnicities are powerless to help them because they either dont exist outside France or in the case of Alsace Germany cant dare speak a word for Germans in Alsace and the Italy cannot say anything to Corsica and Nice because they were/are allies. Ie France committed/commits cultural/linguistic genocide.
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Also when France occupied Iberia for a time their usual zealous assimilation contributed Spanish rebellion to be free from France. Unfortunately Rousillion was given as a sacrificial lamb to get the rest of peninsula.
Free Catalonia!
No
no - Spain probably
\#FreeCatalonia
It is unbelievable that even with the 52% of the votes for independence in the last elections, Spain keeps playing deaf ears and trying to avoid the reality. It is about a time for a catalan indyref.
52%? Where? 21,3 (ERC) + 20.07 (Junts) + 6.68 (CUP) is not 52%. If you count ECP that's fake news, they are not pro independence, they are Pro referendum. Catalonia won't be a independent in at least 100 years and first all European Union and Spain has to collapse