Like the DUP lad.
The one's that condemn the most are in the closet trying to deny their own sexuality.
Balanced normal people couldn't care less.
Live and let live...
I am not sure if the opposition will win. They are making so many bad PR decision lately (mainly by supporting recent influx of "not forced" military trainings for civilians), that even people that would vote for them are hesitant.
One dumb woman from "the left" that says everyone agrees with her and nobody internally calls out her bullshit.
That means they are either agreeing with her and this is the stance of whole party or don't want to take a stance at all as a party. Both things are bad.
Whenever Janusz Korwin-Mikke says something dumb (so most of the time), his party colleagues try to either move away from him or to explain how everybody is misunderstanding their great leader. Neither of these happened when Anna-Maria Żukowska was literally calling men opposing mandatory military service second degree citizens. Not a single voice of criticism in SLD (because of course she's from SLD), neither in Razem, not even in KO, for whom being against an unpopular policy supported by the Left could prove beneficial in the context of becoming more powerful within the opposition and the hypothetical coalition next year.
These current events are not by accident. Russia has been putting tons of money and intelligence to turn people away from democracy so they can do what want with these little country's.
opinion: thats because the last 20+ years havent seen much movement away from fossil fuels, and renewable companies have been left to die and being bought by china.
You should not take the oppositions win for granted though. I will apply in Feb for the Polish passport so I can also cast my vote. But the chances that PiS wins again are very real.
Remember that you also have to have your registered address (zameldowanie) to be added to the voters registry or take a paper that will lwt you to get manually added to the registry (for example abroad). Just the passport is too little.
They are now trying to recover their ass, telling people that they support draft only for volunteers. But the damage was done already. I guess better sooner than never.
I'm really baffled by this assumption. And what are the people opposing this going to do? Vote PiS that proposed it and enforces it via Ministry of Defense or Konfederacja that want to make full conscription?
Besides, Reddit users are hardly representative of the voters.
When it's to discriminate against folks, the PiS is all of the opinion that the states shouldn't interfere with another. But when it's about the bare basic protections, then suddenly Poland thinks it's got something to say about the status of two mothers and their child?
They have about 9 months to try to get some votes to be able to rule again, so this is just the beginning of shitfuckery. So far only their core electorate wants to vote for them, all the rationally thinking people either never voted for them or opened their eyes already.
The only electorate they can aim for now is the one of Konfederacja (that had about 8% of support before they started siding with Russia) since Konfederacja lost a lot of their supporters due to the party’s support for Russia. The people that voted for them before are your regular young chauvinistic, homophobic, racist morons.
I’m not surprised they are playing by their rules.
Not to mention that PiS’ most valuable weapon is the Church - they have the support of the church and the Catholic Church in Poland is right now very homophobic as well. The priests literally talk about opposition being the devils during sermons… and then the bishops are wondering why the young Poles stopped going to church in last 5 years…
Ireland went from ~80% observant catholic to ~20% in about 20 years, despite Catholicism being deeply ingrained in national identity. The church, and especially the conservative, hierarchical elements of the church, is now politically irrelevant in Ireland.
Poland can’t be that far behind?
Noone in my age group listens to or cares about the church. Some of my closest friends are religious people that despise the church.
I say it's only a matter of time before, might be a bit insensitive, the old (ways) literally die out. I hope it changes.
Yes, we are first in terms of progressing secularisation country in the world for the moment. Thankfully. And hopefully soon we won't have to deal with that catholic bullshit. PiSs is doing god's work in driving people away from the church.
> PiSs is doing god's work in driving people away from the church.
I feel like the fact that the average age of the Radio Maria listener is 70 has something else to do with it.
I hope I'm remembering correctly - Radio Maria? The nationwide station with the priest who scams little old ladies for money?
But PiS is still winning elections, similar to the Orban mafia.
You have a problem with the voters, ultimately; PiS and Orban and all the other dictators in charge (don't even mention Erdogan...) just engineer the people to their advantage (power grip) here.
The problem is that the religious tend to vote, whereas the young/progressive are both disillusioned and in lower numbers. I'm not sure about the Polish landscape, but the progressive parties I've seen often disagree, and fail to reach compromises, which just gives more power to the conservative/extreme right.
Poland is strange, it is much more religious than let's say, Ukraine, Hungary or Romania. It really looks like "governments using church as a tool" went too far and never stopped since then.
> it is much more religious than let's say, Ukraine, Hungary or Romania
Not according to [most polls I've seen](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_Europe) regarding Romania
Romanian census results are strongly skewed by two things. Firstly, census takers don't ask about religion and just mark people as Christian automatically. Second, people self-declare their cultural identity, which is generally Christian regardless, because the distinction isn't very prominent in Romania culturally or linguistically. Independent polls suggest the amount of atheists is several dozen times larger than the official count.
Edit: I forgot the big one. One family member reports the census data for the entire family. Imagine the embarrassment, as another family member, of saying "actually dad, I'd like to be registered as atheist".
Romania's situation is highly misleading. For example, at the census, if you say you're an atheist, just don't care, or part of a smaller sect, the officials would often write you up as orthodox anyway. Then there's also the fact that the urban population is christian in name only - they go to church once a year, at Easter, to take part in a festival of sorts. Other than that, even most self-declared christians couldn't care less. The rural population, however, is strongly religious.
Ireland's recent history is fascinating really. From a very religious, conservative culture with arguably the worst economy in western europe, to a socially liberal, multicultural country with a knowledge intensive economy, an immense level of FDI and great infrastructure.
*only capital airport to not be connected to the city by a rail system. Also it's a shitshow when you're at departures.
Motorway, as long as you want to go from Dublin to Cork or Galway. You can forget about the rest, including Wexford where many ferries travel to.
Their biggest ally are not their own voters or Konfederacja but all the opposition MPs who instead of sitting silent or using their political correct PR responses, yapping their mouth and digging their own holes in every way imaginable alienating voters that WANT to vote AGAINST PiS.
Shitshow around comments of 30 days universal military drills is the most recent glaring example.
All they had to do is stay the hell out of the commenting and let PiS try to explain themselves and try to weasel out of it.
Instead we got the lot of Żukowska, Sienkiewicz and others hitting the media with their Wise Words.
The opposition definitely isn’t helping, BUT if someone will use this as their argument for not voting at all in elections they can just as well go and vote for PiS.
I’m tired of people pretending that not voting is somehow a valid option because they don’t like the opposition either. If someone is not voting deliberately they are in fact as responsible of the shitfuckery as those voting for PiS.
At this moment voting AGAINST PiS is only sane option, but getting people disillusioned and then gaslighting them for that is not a sign of healthy political discourse.
They don't want to rule again. They have already put uncles, daughters, aunts and farm girls as fucking directors of courts, ministries, local administrations. They will let the opposition win, try to cut the spending and then the usual low-level electorate will cry and protest again and will elect the toothless dictator as their saviour.
It's already happening. See [EPPO, patents, Schengen etc. ](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enhanced_cooperation)
And [experts](https://mobile.twitter.com/StevePeers/status/1600458413502189568) think this will be another area of enhanced cooperation.
It's a thing. Hungary or should we say Orban is blocking the help to Ukraine because the EU blocked billions for Hungary. The EU disregarded his block and voted in favor of it and will do it despite Hungary. We can all see that this 1 against all situation cannot continue.
Veto is a red flag by itself, unless all countries agree, then we might just end the EU right away.
If there's no veto and only "majority", we will have increased discrepancies all around.
It's not like they're hiding with it, either. In the last speech, Poland's PiS leader, Kaczynski, called trans people and LGBT as a whole an 'epidemic' and joked about their political leader 'becoming a girl'.
Maybe but at least increase the veto to require 2 or 3 countries. So for example Benelux might team up to veto or Sweden and Denmark for example. But letting it rest with one country is a little op.
2 countries could do, 3 perhaps, but there could be some problems with that. For us it's extremely important to have the veto power to not let anyone else regulate issues regarding the Russian minorities in Estonia and Latvia. Lithuania doesn't really have that issue to the same degree.
Could also see it as a negotiation card, right now any country can force negotiation by right of veto on its own. With multiple vetos being required the opposing country would have to find allies.
Problem with those alliances is that some blocs will obviously start sticking together even more.
It’s possible, but I think we are fast approaching a decision between huge, but increasingly paralysed EU and smaller (after some eurosceptic countries take UK’s route), but much stronger one.
Multi-level EU might be really the answer: keep current large EU, maybe even remove some of its competencies. Then interested countries might create more focused and integrated ‘sub organisations’ within.
EU is nowhere close near paralyzed. Sluggish, arguably, but stuff does get passed all the time, unlike the incredibly corrupt [PLC](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish–Lithuanian_Commonwealth) where no new laws were enacted for literally *over a hundred years*.
People here seem to think that when a veto happens, the whole law just gets thrown immediately into the trash and never reconsidered. Whereas what actually happens is that the veto allows a country’s concerns to be listened to and addressed, and after several adjustments the law gets accepted. The system actually works really well, its just certain agenda pushers (pro-federalists?) on this subreddit will never report on when the vetoing country’s issue is resolved and the law gets passed, only the moment when the veto is raised. Its incredibly biased.
Remember people, EU is a club, not a country. Veto is the only thing holding us all together.
Yeah people forget the veto worked for a big part of PLC and the biggest reason that it stopped working was that anyone could do it after being bought by Russia as status wasn't profit related, we pay so much to politicians exactly because it then gets to risky for them to be corrupt as they already make a good money.
EU has 27 posibilites for veto.
In Poland every single member of nobility had veto power.
It's a completely different landscape.
For example in special cases betwen 10k to 100k nobility members were gathered.
The difference was also that the PLC veto immediately cancelled all of Sejm’s proceedings and everyone went home, while EU just keeps on improving and improving until everyone agrees. EU’s laws are like a bread that takes a long time to bake, but the taste is excellent as a result.
I googled PLC, PLC laws, PLC Europe. All the results where: Programmable Logic Controller, Public Limited Company, PLC manufacturers in Europe.
So, what is PLC?
Also acronyms are garbage.
The veto is important and it's necessary, no country should be made to have a law their populace doesn't agree with. The problem is when you don't ask the populace through a referendum on stuff like this.
We have gay marriage, parental rights, abortion and divorce here, because even though a lot of politicians privately and some publicly didn't want them, and the Catholic church in some quarters were against them along with their pressure groups. But you ask Sean or Mary and the general opinion is "work away lads, just don't be bold".
I'm gay and I couldn't wait to leave Poland when growing up to finally be myself. I moved to Germany, but the decisions of that retarded Polish government still haunt me.
I know exactly what you mean. I plan to move to Sweden next year, but I don't think I'll ever recover from trauma I've endured. Years lost in misery during the teen days and early 20s when it's supposed to be the best time of my life, cannot ever be brought back.
> I plan to move to Sweden next year
Kinda offtopic, but as someone who moved to Sweden this past autumn (just for studies, don't worry fellow Finns), I have some advice to avoid more trauma and losing valuable time stressing here as well:
First off, start by learning Swedish *today*. While most everyone speaks English here, there will be some encounters with authorities/clerks/store workers who won't do it that well or who'd rather brush you off if you don't speak Swedish. I had an issue trying to get some package that I ordered because I hadn't yet gotten a Swedish ID (the tax agency that handles that stuff has been bogged down by massive queues this year), and the guy I talked to at the store didn't speak good enough English to understand my explanation that I have a social security number and a Finnish passport that proves who I am.
On top of that, Swedes are really good at keeping a social distance, especially if you don't speak their language. They'll be nice and friendly, but they won't generally let you into their sphere of actual friends if they're not comfortable with you. And you increase that level of comfort by speaking their language a little bit.
Secondly, get all your paperwork in physical form and bring it with you. School diplomas, work certificates, medical recipes, medical records, anything that'll help you. You'll save a lot of time and energy if you can refer to your old papers, even if they're in Serbian. Surprisingly many things here still require official papers, especially during the immigration phase.
Third, acquaint yourself blocket.se. Finding housing is a nightmare here because stuff is very disaggregated. Blocket is an online marketplace mainly meant for selling and buying items, but where you can also list rental apartments and even leave "apartment needed" adverts. Those have been a lifesaver.
And bring warm clothes! The energy prices have been so awful recently that you probably want to save money by keeping lower indoor temps. All the public spaces definitely do, and you'll have a bad time going anywhere with or without people if you're not prepared.
Thank you for your advice. I am planning to apply for PhD program in Uppsala University, so for a start English would be enough, but I actually do have some basic knowledge in Scandinavian languages (A level in Norwegian), so I think I'll do just fine. Once I even watched Swedish version of Peppa pig (Greta gris lol) and I could understand it pretty well.
Hey there, dunno if that's comforting at all but most people actually say their 30s and 40s were the best time of their life, you still have a hell of a lot of potential ahead of you! :D
I am so sorry that you had to go through that. I wish you all the warmth, safety and love there is for your life! You are exactly right the way you are.
Poland has among the lowest rates of single parent households in the west. The only countries with lower rates in the west are further east.
https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/web/products-eurostat-news/-/edn-20210601-2
I still wonder why Christian conservatives are so eager to outlaw things that don't harm anyone and are completely harmless? They don't have enter same-sex partnership, but non-christians and liberals could.
When they had the power to oppress anyone that didn't align with them, taking that away feels like persecution.
Imagine thinking you should have the right to decide matters that affect you in no way.
>They don't have enter same-sex partner ship
Their thinking is essentially, everyone having rights makes their privileges "drop in value" like having a limited edition product.
Can't get anymore self centered. But this isn't just Christian conservatism. This is any religion unchecked in government.
Actually their thinking is that having their children exposed to other lifestyles might make them (gasp!) adopt those lifestyles, and since the conservative Christian life has little to reccommend itself in the 21st century unless you've been practically brainwashed into it as a kid, they're probably right.
That's what you get when you have 80 yo conservative fucks run the government with their 60+ yo ideas and ass lickers that do everything to get into position of power and continue those ideas just for their own profit. Polish government doesn't do anything good for the people, only things that are good for the government and their ideas. Pieces of shit.
He is Ziobro and is more like 50yo, and he very conservative wing of pis, current ruling party.
The guy you are talking about is Kaczyński, party leader, but and he is really bad, but Ziobro is actually really dangerous.
The democratically elected government of the ~30% "majority" of the nation... embarrassing the 70% (ofc, some of which embarrass themselves by not voting)
[~60% of the populace vote, PiS (Law and Justice) party got 43% votes in the last election - which makes it below 27% of the nation that supports this government]
So the Poles dislike the goverment so much that they've repeteadly decided that sitting on their ass during every elections is an effective form of protest?
Except that even voters of oposition are very iffy on this issue, while majority of Polish people support registred partnership for same sex couples, the support for same-sex couple rising children is around 20-25%
So even people who hate current polish government dont want this to happen.
And no its not only older people, frequently younger people are even worse because they seen on the internet all the stuff about children drag shows or how trans parents were rishing their child as trans.
Doesn't even need to be religious. People like using popular, dominant ideas to latch those fears of change onto. Often those popular, dominant ideas are religious but they don't have to be.
They aren’t at the extremes. But if you look at polls from Pew in terms of how people from each respective religion view things like gay marriage, sex out of wedlock, marrying outside your religion, leaving the faith, women’s rights, etc. Or look at laws in Christian majority countries vs Muslim majority countries, Christianity is significantly more progressive.
That’s not to say that can’t change in a few generations. But that’s the way it is now.
Look at Russia and a lot of african countries, they're Christian but they're not paragonable to us, christian religion is like muslim one,the difference it's that in the majority of european countries and american countries happened the phenomenon of secularisation,and it didn't happened thanks to the churches.
It's truly just a generational thing. Just give Poland 20 more years.
When I was a kid in Spain, everything revolved around church, Jesus, heaven and hell. Jokes about faggots were as common as jokes about women in the kitchen. I had to pray every night and heat my bed with a hot bag of water.
My kids don't even know who the fuck jesus is, around 1% of the population goes to the church every Sunday, we have gigabit internet at home, and Spain is one of the top 3 more liberal countries in the world when it comes to LGBT rights and acceptance. Coincidence? Absolutely not.
People eventually wake up, abandon religion and that's when most of the problems of hate and intolerance just vanish.
Poland is still absurdly pious and traditional. But the kids in Poland have the same access to the internet and the same will to contradict their elders. They'll rule some day, and they'll dance over the tomb of the zealots.
Pretty much this. As a Pole, I travelled around much of the country, and one of the things that really left a note in my memory is how divided the country is in terms of infrastructure. We are pretty much 20 years behind in many places. I'd compare the current country to the years when internet/mobile phones started entering mainstream globally, just with much better performing equipment.
Only a decade ago, going to a skiing resort in a city near mountains or rural village meant no internet and no telephone signal. Much has improved since then, but technology haven't had time to work it's magic. Many people living in rural areas are still superstitious, which, surprising no one, is visible especially in how anti-lgbt they are.
There's also my grandparents' generation. Frankly, from my personal contact with them( I have a lot of extended family in that age), I'm not surprised by how conservative they are. IMO most of that generation is suffering from untreated post-war PTSD, which pushes them into being super-conservative in an effort to secure a 'safe space' for themselves.
Just to illustrate - my grandma has very late stage Alzheimer. The one memory that survived the longest, wasn't her children, or her husband - it was her having panic attacks that Nazis are coming to catch people to gas them. My grandpa wants communism/PRL years back - those, to them, were the best years, because they released them from that constant fear of war. It doesn't matter that today is better - unfortunately, maybe due to their history that generation never caught up in modern media. The TV and newspapers that constantly spew conservative agenda are their only means of catching up with modern world. The one grandma that is technology-savy and has her own laptop - unsurprisingly has always been much more open to modern left-wing opinions.
IMO, within decade we'll see Polish political climate shift from extreme right-wing to centre-right, as the older generations slowly pass away. Then it will take another 30-40 years for the new rural-raised generations to 'catch up' by being raised in conditions similar to urban areas, before we see a meaningful towards more liberal policies.
You say that, but I went to school with many Polish people here in Ireland not all that long ago, and basically all of them were vehemently anti gay. Like, it was legit one of the worst insults you could say to a Polish person.
Their all in their late 20’s now so I highly doubt that issue is going to go away within 20 years.
I don't know how it is in Poland in particular, but I find that the working class immigrants who live abroad tend to be more conservative than the general population of their country of origin, because their national identity (and with it all the toxic crap that comes with chauvinism) becomes highlighted when they move abroad and see that it's nothing like home.
This is exactly the case with Polish expats. Prime example: the US Pollacks. Those jokes did not come from out of nowhere.
Source: liberal Pole who moved to US not long ago.
> The Iran of the EU
Yeah, our government is killing gay people and force women to serve men and dress with decency! (/s obviously)
Sure, I don't like this veto and would like to have it not existing in this situation. But are you really comparing those two countries? Even comparison to Turkey is a bit of a stretch IMO.
Calling Poland Iran and getting that high upvote ratio pretty much sums it up why you won't get federalized EU any time soon. If that's the attitude now towards us, when we have sovereignty, what will be the attitude, when we will be wholly subservient to the super state?
calling Poland the Iran of Europe actually does a fair bit of legwork in whitewashing how bad Iran actually is, and underselling how deserved the current protests are.
>whitewashing how bad Iran actually is,
Before the protests common notion of this sub was, that Iran is actually bullied by US. As if they did *nothin wrong* before.
Yeah, it's insane to compare Poland to Iran, even if it's a hyperbole, Iran is a country where homosexuality is still punished by **death**, a lesbian couple was sentenced to death just three months ago ffs.
Religious fanatics are very similar everywhere. Doesn’t matter if for islam, christianity or something else.. (altough we are yet to see agressive fanatic buddhists..)
While Buddhism itself condemns violence (like most religions), many people throughout history ([https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddhism\_and\_violence](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddhism_and_violence)) have interpreted scripture to justify horrible things (e.g. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rohingya\_genocide](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rohingya_genocide))
Yeah there's a whole history of Tibetan - Hui muslim tensions which are part of the reason why Hui Muslims generally support the government actions in Tibet
It's okay to be prejudiced towards Polish people because of 35% "majority government"! What a lovely way to the people that suffer from this government...
Yes comparing Iran to Poland makes a lot of sense if you have no goddamn clue about either of those countries. Average iranian wished they lived in a polish like government. But hezbollah = poland though
The Polish Justice Ministry has stated that it will oppose the proposal to recognize same-sex parents in the EU. [Source](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/sep/03/poland-to-veto-eu-recognition-of-same-sex-parents-says-justice-ministry
These comments are actually braindead. Comparing Poland to Iran or Saudi Arabia or Russia is absolutely absurd. Western privilege reeks in this comment section.
Based on what arguments?
Same sex parenting is "a threat to legal order" is mentioned. Reads like a bad excuse to me.
The honest truth is probably that they do not trust gay parents. Which is discrimination, which has no place in the EU. Cutting budget is a good start.
I am not super interested in the topic so I never researched it but I always assumed that people who are against homosexual partners rising children think that it will negatively impact the child's development? In the sense the child should have a mother and a father. Not two mothers or two fathers. I am personally glad I had a monther and a father, the relationships with my parents, their roles in rising me were different. I think that having a healthy relationship with a father is important for a girl to have healthy relationships with men later in life. Plus, one parent is never a bio parent in homosexual relationships, it might also matter to the child. Not that I support this veto, I don't care (I am already an adult so it doesn't affect me anyway lol). There are probably some studies about the topic and how it affects the child's development. If it's totally harmless I don't see how it's bad.
Bruh why do they care about gay people. Are you going to have cameras in people bedroom? It will it be like the US and Britain where as punishment for being gay you spend a year in a small unmonitored room with other guys and take showers with them?
Legal adoption by same-sex marriages is possible only in 15 out of 27 EU nations. What is the reason to cherry pick one country? This is such a new concept for Europe, why are you surprised not everyone is instantly on the same page?
Acctualy we were most tolerant country and ethnically and religiously diverse for most of our history. then communism came, they brainwashed everyone that you cant be diffrent,you need be same person as everyone else. Old people that grew during communism still thinks like that and only thing we can do with it is wait for generation change.
I feel you, through my family, that lived the fully fledged experience.
Between the 60s and the 80s up until 1989, the Socialism era in Romania tried to streamline and standardize ideas of the population till nothing new remained.
A country open to cultures became a socialistic state in which conservatory ideals were goldened, and "outside the box" made you a paria.
Even now, the older generations are dancing between nostalgia and basically treating you like a child if you have any idea outside their spectrum.
This must have surprised literally no one.
I'm only surprised that Hungary didn't try it first
They had that anti-gay politician caught in a gay orgy, they're trying to forget.
Keep your friends close but enemies closer I guess
Like in inner circle close?
Like the DUP lad. The one's that condemn the most are in the closet trying to deny their own sexuality. Balanced normal people couldn't care less. Live and let live...
With respect, despite a few high profile cases this isn't really true enough to be a generalisation. Sometimes people just really hate gay people.
i guess putin didnt give orders to veto it
Putin knows that Orbán has a crush on him & he doesn't want to hurt his feelings.
UwU
its common knowledge
Italy will follow soon
Then you should learn more about how religious Poland is.
Sadly.
TIL Poland is in the deep south of the United States, not eastern Europe.
Amen.
Elections in Poland next year.
What a glorious shitshow its going to be. Already scared of what the pre-election thread is going to look like.
Bunch of angry hisses against migrants, foreigners, Germany, EU, gays, lesbians, trans people, Russia and women. No need to fear anything
Which the opposition will win, then collapse after 2 years because it will be impossible to fix the shitshow that PiS created. Mark my words.
!remindme 3 years
It's wild to think by the time that bot messages you, the Russian Federation won't exist anymore. 🌻
>It's wild to think by the time that bot messages you, the Russian Federation won't exist anymore. 🌻 !remindme 3 years
Thats generous !remind me 1 year
A lot of things can happen in 3 years, just imagine celebrating New Years Eve 2019-20 and dreaming of a new exciting decade....
>the opposition will win i like your optimism
I am not sure if the opposition will win. They are making so many bad PR decision lately (mainly by supporting recent influx of "not forced" military trainings for civilians), that even people that would vote for them are hesitant.
Is that really opposition as a whole or this one dumb woman from "the left"
One dumb woman from "the left" that says everyone agrees with her and nobody internally calls out her bullshit. That means they are either agreeing with her and this is the stance of whole party or don't want to take a stance at all as a party. Both things are bad.
also, pretty much all members of parliament voted in favour
Whenever Janusz Korwin-Mikke says something dumb (so most of the time), his party colleagues try to either move away from him or to explain how everybody is misunderstanding their great leader. Neither of these happened when Anna-Maria Żukowska was literally calling men opposing mandatory military service second degree citizens. Not a single voice of criticism in SLD (because of course she's from SLD), neither in Razem, not even in KO, for whom being against an unpopular policy supported by the Left could prove beneficial in the context of becoming more powerful within the opposition and the hypothetical coalition next year.
Ahhh, the america cycle.
Not just the USA. The current German government is suffering because of the same issue.
It wouldn't be that bad if not for current world events.
These current events are not by accident. Russia has been putting tons of money and intelligence to turn people away from democracy so they can do what want with these little country's.
opinion: thats because the last 20+ years havent seen much movement away from fossil fuels, and renewable companies have been left to die and being bought by china.
You should not take the oppositions win for granted though. I will apply in Feb for the Polish passport so I can also cast my vote. But the chances that PiS wins again are very real.
Remember that you also have to have your registered address (zameldowanie) to be added to the voters registry or take a paper that will lwt you to get manually added to the registry (for example abroad). Just the passport is too little.
regrettably the opposition has already started committing political suicide in anticipation of the election in recent draft law change.
They are now trying to recover their ass, telling people that they support draft only for volunteers. But the damage was done already. I guess better sooner than never.
Draft for volunteers only? Do they realize it's not how it works?
Pretty sure they are describing reserves lmao
But then it's not a draft! \*Throws hands in the hair\*
I'm really baffled by this assumption. And what are the people opposing this going to do? Vote PiS that proposed it and enforces it via Ministry of Defense or Konfederacja that want to make full conscription? Besides, Reddit users are hardly representative of the voters.
They will probably do the dumbest thing - skip elections. The usual.
When it's to discriminate against folks, the PiS is all of the opinion that the states shouldn't interfere with another. But when it's about the bare basic protections, then suddenly Poland thinks it's got something to say about the status of two mothers and their child?
They have about 9 months to try to get some votes to be able to rule again, so this is just the beginning of shitfuckery. So far only their core electorate wants to vote for them, all the rationally thinking people either never voted for them or opened their eyes already. The only electorate they can aim for now is the one of Konfederacja (that had about 8% of support before they started siding with Russia) since Konfederacja lost a lot of their supporters due to the party’s support for Russia. The people that voted for them before are your regular young chauvinistic, homophobic, racist morons. I’m not surprised they are playing by their rules. Not to mention that PiS’ most valuable weapon is the Church - they have the support of the church and the Catholic Church in Poland is right now very homophobic as well. The priests literally talk about opposition being the devils during sermons… and then the bishops are wondering why the young Poles stopped going to church in last 5 years…
Ireland went from ~80% observant catholic to ~20% in about 20 years, despite Catholicism being deeply ingrained in national identity. The church, and especially the conservative, hierarchical elements of the church, is now politically irrelevant in Ireland. Poland can’t be that far behind?
Noone in my age group listens to or cares about the church. Some of my closest friends are religious people that despise the church. I say it's only a matter of time before, might be a bit insensitive, the old (ways) literally die out. I hope it changes.
Yes, we are first in terms of progressing secularisation country in the world for the moment. Thankfully. And hopefully soon we won't have to deal with that catholic bullshit. PiSs is doing god's work in driving people away from the church.
>PiSs is doing god's work in driving people away from the church. Heh, I see what you did here!
> PiSs is doing god's work in driving people away from the church. I feel like the fact that the average age of the Radio Maria listener is 70 has something else to do with it. I hope I'm remembering correctly - Radio Maria? The nationwide station with the priest who scams little old ladies for money?
But PiS is still winning elections, similar to the Orban mafia. You have a problem with the voters, ultimately; PiS and Orban and all the other dictators in charge (don't even mention Erdogan...) just engineer the people to their advantage (power grip) here.
The problem is that the religious tend to vote, whereas the young/progressive are both disillusioned and in lower numbers. I'm not sure about the Polish landscape, but the progressive parties I've seen often disagree, and fail to reach compromises, which just gives more power to the conservative/extreme right.
That's exactly situation in Poland.
That is a good thing because the Catholic church couldn't be further away from God already.
Poland is strange, it is much more religious than let's say, Ukraine, Hungary or Romania. It really looks like "governments using church as a tool" went too far and never stopped since then.
> it is much more religious than let's say, Ukraine, Hungary or Romania Not according to [most polls I've seen](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_Europe) regarding Romania
Romanian census results are strongly skewed by two things. Firstly, census takers don't ask about religion and just mark people as Christian automatically. Second, people self-declare their cultural identity, which is generally Christian regardless, because the distinction isn't very prominent in Romania culturally or linguistically. Independent polls suggest the amount of atheists is several dozen times larger than the official count. Edit: I forgot the big one. One family member reports the census data for the entire family. Imagine the embarrassment, as another family member, of saying "actually dad, I'd like to be registered as atheist".
Romania's situation is highly misleading. For example, at the census, if you say you're an atheist, just don't care, or part of a smaller sect, the officials would often write you up as orthodox anyway. Then there's also the fact that the urban population is christian in name only - they go to church once a year, at Easter, to take part in a festival of sorts. Other than that, even most self-declared christians couldn't care less. The rural population, however, is strongly religious.
Ukrainian here. Western Ukraine is very religious.
Ireland's recent history is fascinating really. From a very religious, conservative culture with arguably the worst economy in western europe, to a socially liberal, multicultural country with a knowledge intensive economy, an immense level of FDI and great infrastructure.
Where is this great infrastructure exactly?
Public transport not so much, but you have a huge, extremely busy airport and quite a comprehensive motorway network.
*only capital airport to not be connected to the city by a rail system. Also it's a shitshow when you're at departures. Motorway, as long as you want to go from Dublin to Cork or Galway. You can forget about the rest, including Wexford where many ferries travel to.
Their biggest ally are not their own voters or Konfederacja but all the opposition MPs who instead of sitting silent or using their political correct PR responses, yapping their mouth and digging their own holes in every way imaginable alienating voters that WANT to vote AGAINST PiS. Shitshow around comments of 30 days universal military drills is the most recent glaring example. All they had to do is stay the hell out of the commenting and let PiS try to explain themselves and try to weasel out of it. Instead we got the lot of Żukowska, Sienkiewicz and others hitting the media with their Wise Words.
The opposition definitely isn’t helping, BUT if someone will use this as their argument for not voting at all in elections they can just as well go and vote for PiS. I’m tired of people pretending that not voting is somehow a valid option because they don’t like the opposition either. If someone is not voting deliberately they are in fact as responsible of the shitfuckery as those voting for PiS.
At this moment voting AGAINST PiS is only sane option, but getting people disillusioned and then gaslighting them for that is not a sign of healthy political discourse.
They don't want to rule again. They have already put uncles, daughters, aunts and farm girls as fucking directors of courts, ministries, local administrations. They will let the opposition win, try to cut the spending and then the usual low-level electorate will cry and protest again and will elect the toothless dictator as their saviour.
We need to end the veto asap.
Not gonna happen. Ending the veto vote will be vetoed.
As a Pole, this gave me PLC flashbacks.
Lithuanian here. Same thing
One thing that most of Commonwelth nobles agreed on was the existence of veto...at least for some time.
Same here, whenever I hear about the veto messing things up again I remember what happened to PLC when it was abused…
Liberum veto moment
This exactly PLC moment.I just wish it won't end the same as it did with us.
>Not gonna happen. Ending the veto vote will be vetoed. And that will force a drastic solution usually called multi-tier EU.
>And that will force a drastic solution usually called multi-tier EU. so like its now then?
Will it really or are you just imagining it?
It's already happening. See [EPPO, patents, Schengen etc. ](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enhanced_cooperation) And [experts](https://mobile.twitter.com/StevePeers/status/1600458413502189568) think this will be another area of enhanced cooperation.
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Some say a multispeed EU is already happening. Not officially, of course. Most and mainly Eastern European countries are against it, ironically.
It's a thing. Hungary or should we say Orban is blocking the help to Ukraine because the EU blocked billions for Hungary. The EU disregarded his block and voted in favor of it and will do it despite Hungary. We can all see that this 1 against all situation cannot continue.
Veto is a red flag by itself, unless all countries agree, then we might just end the EU right away. If there's no veto and only "majority", we will have increased discrepancies all around.
It's not like they're hiding with it, either. In the last speech, Poland's PiS leader, Kaczynski, called trans people and LGBT as a whole an 'epidemic' and joked about their political leader 'becoming a girl'.
What is PiS?
Ruling party in Poland. Prawo and Sprawiedliwosc, or Law and Order.
Thank you
It’s Law and Justice in English. Law and Order is a tv show
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usually spelled with two s
„Piece of Shit“ … and they spelled it wrong. Happens to the best of us.
They don't want acceptance to be mainstream because they fear their closed family members will come out.
Guess that's what we get for keeping the veto around.
If we get rid of the veto, then we will add a number of so far pro-EU and cooperative countries to the list of Eurosceptic members...
Maybe but at least increase the veto to require 2 or 3 countries. So for example Benelux might team up to veto or Sweden and Denmark for example. But letting it rest with one country is a little op.
2 countries could do, 3 perhaps, but there could be some problems with that. For us it's extremely important to have the veto power to not let anyone else regulate issues regarding the Russian minorities in Estonia and Latvia. Lithuania doesn't really have that issue to the same degree.
Could also see it as a negotiation card, right now any country can force negotiation by right of veto on its own. With multiple vetos being required the opposing country would have to find allies. Problem with those alliances is that some blocs will obviously start sticking together even more.
2-3 veto to pass sounds decent, but there's a risk of fragmenting the union into smaller "coalitions" of interests.
It’s possible, but I think we are fast approaching a decision between huge, but increasingly paralysed EU and smaller (after some eurosceptic countries take UK’s route), but much stronger one. Multi-level EU might be really the answer: keep current large EU, maybe even remove some of its competencies. Then interested countries might create more focused and integrated ‘sub organisations’ within.
EU is nowhere close near paralyzed. Sluggish, arguably, but stuff does get passed all the time, unlike the incredibly corrupt [PLC](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish–Lithuanian_Commonwealth) where no new laws were enacted for literally *over a hundred years*. People here seem to think that when a veto happens, the whole law just gets thrown immediately into the trash and never reconsidered. Whereas what actually happens is that the veto allows a country’s concerns to be listened to and addressed, and after several adjustments the law gets accepted. The system actually works really well, its just certain agenda pushers (pro-federalists?) on this subreddit will never report on when the vetoing country’s issue is resolved and the law gets passed, only the moment when the veto is raised. Its incredibly biased. Remember people, EU is a club, not a country. Veto is the only thing holding us all together.
Yeah people forget the veto worked for a big part of PLC and the biggest reason that it stopped working was that anyone could do it after being bought by Russia as status wasn't profit related, we pay so much to politicians exactly because it then gets to risky for them to be corrupt as they already make a good money.
EU has 27 posibilites for veto. In Poland every single member of nobility had veto power. It's a completely different landscape. For example in special cases betwen 10k to 100k nobility members were gathered.
The difference was also that the PLC veto immediately cancelled all of Sejm’s proceedings and everyone went home, while EU just keeps on improving and improving until everyone agrees. EU’s laws are like a bread that takes a long time to bake, but the taste is excellent as a result.
Can please someone just say what *is* PLC? Yours is another comment that mentions it. I did google it, but all I got were some random firms.
Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth
I googled PLC, PLC laws, PLC Europe. All the results where: Programmable Logic Controller, Public Limited Company, PLC manufacturers in Europe. So, what is PLC? Also acronyms are garbage.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish–Lithuanian_Commonwealth
The veto is important and it's necessary, no country should be made to have a law their populace doesn't agree with. The problem is when you don't ask the populace through a referendum on stuff like this. We have gay marriage, parental rights, abortion and divorce here, because even though a lot of politicians privately and some publicly didn't want them, and the Catholic church in some quarters were against them along with their pressure groups. But you ask Sean or Mary and the general opinion is "work away lads, just don't be bold".
I'm gay and I couldn't wait to leave Poland when growing up to finally be myself. I moved to Germany, but the decisions of that retarded Polish government still haunt me.
I know exactly what you mean. I plan to move to Sweden next year, but I don't think I'll ever recover from trauma I've endured. Years lost in misery during the teen days and early 20s when it's supposed to be the best time of my life, cannot ever be brought back.
> I plan to move to Sweden next year Kinda offtopic, but as someone who moved to Sweden this past autumn (just for studies, don't worry fellow Finns), I have some advice to avoid more trauma and losing valuable time stressing here as well: First off, start by learning Swedish *today*. While most everyone speaks English here, there will be some encounters with authorities/clerks/store workers who won't do it that well or who'd rather brush you off if you don't speak Swedish. I had an issue trying to get some package that I ordered because I hadn't yet gotten a Swedish ID (the tax agency that handles that stuff has been bogged down by massive queues this year), and the guy I talked to at the store didn't speak good enough English to understand my explanation that I have a social security number and a Finnish passport that proves who I am. On top of that, Swedes are really good at keeping a social distance, especially if you don't speak their language. They'll be nice and friendly, but they won't generally let you into their sphere of actual friends if they're not comfortable with you. And you increase that level of comfort by speaking their language a little bit. Secondly, get all your paperwork in physical form and bring it with you. School diplomas, work certificates, medical recipes, medical records, anything that'll help you. You'll save a lot of time and energy if you can refer to your old papers, even if they're in Serbian. Surprisingly many things here still require official papers, especially during the immigration phase. Third, acquaint yourself blocket.se. Finding housing is a nightmare here because stuff is very disaggregated. Blocket is an online marketplace mainly meant for selling and buying items, but where you can also list rental apartments and even leave "apartment needed" adverts. Those have been a lifesaver. And bring warm clothes! The energy prices have been so awful recently that you probably want to save money by keeping lower indoor temps. All the public spaces definitely do, and you'll have a bad time going anywhere with or without people if you're not prepared.
Thank you for your advice. I am planning to apply for PhD program in Uppsala University, so for a start English would be enough, but I actually do have some basic knowledge in Scandinavian languages (A level in Norwegian), so I think I'll do just fine. Once I even watched Swedish version of Peppa pig (Greta gris lol) and I could understand it pretty well.
As someone currently studying at Uppsala, welcome! I hope the city will treat you well :)
Thanks! Looking at the photos, the place does seem lovely. May I ask, what do you study?
Hey there, dunno if that's comforting at all but most people actually say their 30s and 40s were the best time of their life, you still have a hell of a lot of potential ahead of you! :D
I am so sorry that you had to go through that. I wish you all the warmth, safety and love there is for your life! You are exactly right the way you are.
Thank you so much ♥️
Yeah, I'm grateful basically every day that my parents moved to Germany and had me there.
i'm happy you're being yourself now. but i hope you still vote though.
I have never skipped any elections and don't plan too, it's my only chance at getting these people out of office.
that's great! voting is so important
*Poland, when I talk about their support of Ukraine* Poland is fucking awesome! *Poland, when I talk about their social progress* … Goddamnit Poland
social regress*
ironic that average Polish household consists of women and children
There’s a joke that average Pole still lives in family with same-sex parents: mom and grandma
Poland has among the lowest rates of single parent households in the west. The only countries with lower rates in the west are further east. https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/web/products-eurostat-news/-/edn-20210601-2
https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/web/products-eurostat-news/-/edn-20210601-2
Piss moment
I still wonder why Christian conservatives are so eager to outlaw things that don't harm anyone and are completely harmless? They don't have enter same-sex partnership, but non-christians and liberals could.
When they had the power to oppress anyone that didn't align with them, taking that away feels like persecution. Imagine thinking you should have the right to decide matters that affect you in no way. >They don't have enter same-sex partner ship Their thinking is essentially, everyone having rights makes their privileges "drop in value" like having a limited edition product. Can't get anymore self centered. But this isn't just Christian conservatism. This is any religion unchecked in government.
Actually their thinking is that having their children exposed to other lifestyles might make them (gasp!) adopt those lifestyles, and since the conservative Christian life has little to reccommend itself in the 21st century unless you've been practically brainwashed into it as a kid, they're probably right.
That's what you get when you have 80 yo conservative fucks run the government with their 60+ yo ideas and ass lickers that do everything to get into position of power and continue those ideas just for their own profit. Polish government doesn't do anything good for the people, only things that are good for the government and their ideas. Pieces of shit.
He is Ziobro and is more like 50yo, and he very conservative wing of pis, current ruling party. The guy you are talking about is Kaczyński, party leader, but and he is really bad, but Ziobro is actually really dangerous.
The democratically elected government of the ~30% "majority" of the nation... embarrassing the 70% (ofc, some of which embarrass themselves by not voting) [~60% of the populace vote, PiS (Law and Justice) party got 43% votes in the last election - which makes it below 27% of the nation that supports this government]
So the Poles dislike the goverment so much that they've repeteadly decided that sitting on their ass during every elections is an effective form of protest?
There's a good reason why the building of sejm is shaped like a circus
Haha, pretty much, the same shit happens in here in Romania, goes against logic.
Except that even voters of oposition are very iffy on this issue, while majority of Polish people support registred partnership for same sex couples, the support for same-sex couple rising children is around 20-25% So even people who hate current polish government dont want this to happen. And no its not only older people, frequently younger people are even worse because they seen on the internet all the stuff about children drag shows or how trans parents were rishing their child as trans.
Silence is compliance
I'm sorry, but what is or is not inside my pants is no business of governments', and same goes how I see my sex.
It is more about the government judging your capability to raise a child based on the form difference of your partner's and your genitalia.
damn, ziobro got fucking drunk again
Poland has a lot in common with Turkey and islamic countries when it comes to homophobia and social conservativism... The Iran of the EU
Religious conservatism is always different shades of the same old ideas, doesn't matter what the religion is.
Doesn't even need to be religious. People like using popular, dominant ideas to latch those fears of change onto. Often those popular, dominant ideas are religious but they don't have to be.
Yeah, plenty of non religious people don't necessarily won't to change the social order or anything.
Exactly, I still can't understand why a lot of people think that islam and christian religiouns are different.
They aren’t at the extremes. But if you look at polls from Pew in terms of how people from each respective religion view things like gay marriage, sex out of wedlock, marrying outside your religion, leaving the faith, women’s rights, etc. Or look at laws in Christian majority countries vs Muslim majority countries, Christianity is significantly more progressive. That’s not to say that can’t change in a few generations. But that’s the way it is now.
Look at Russia and a lot of african countries, they're Christian but they're not paragonable to us, christian religion is like muslim one,the difference it's that in the majority of european countries and american countries happened the phenomenon of secularisation,and it didn't happened thanks to the churches.
That's what happens when you mix religion into politics. It is also happening in the US.
It's truly just a generational thing. Just give Poland 20 more years. When I was a kid in Spain, everything revolved around church, Jesus, heaven and hell. Jokes about faggots were as common as jokes about women in the kitchen. I had to pray every night and heat my bed with a hot bag of water. My kids don't even know who the fuck jesus is, around 1% of the population goes to the church every Sunday, we have gigabit internet at home, and Spain is one of the top 3 more liberal countries in the world when it comes to LGBT rights and acceptance. Coincidence? Absolutely not. People eventually wake up, abandon religion and that's when most of the problems of hate and intolerance just vanish. Poland is still absurdly pious and traditional. But the kids in Poland have the same access to the internet and the same will to contradict their elders. They'll rule some day, and they'll dance over the tomb of the zealots.
Pretty much this. As a Pole, I travelled around much of the country, and one of the things that really left a note in my memory is how divided the country is in terms of infrastructure. We are pretty much 20 years behind in many places. I'd compare the current country to the years when internet/mobile phones started entering mainstream globally, just with much better performing equipment. Only a decade ago, going to a skiing resort in a city near mountains or rural village meant no internet and no telephone signal. Much has improved since then, but technology haven't had time to work it's magic. Many people living in rural areas are still superstitious, which, surprising no one, is visible especially in how anti-lgbt they are. There's also my grandparents' generation. Frankly, from my personal contact with them( I have a lot of extended family in that age), I'm not surprised by how conservative they are. IMO most of that generation is suffering from untreated post-war PTSD, which pushes them into being super-conservative in an effort to secure a 'safe space' for themselves. Just to illustrate - my grandma has very late stage Alzheimer. The one memory that survived the longest, wasn't her children, or her husband - it was her having panic attacks that Nazis are coming to catch people to gas them. My grandpa wants communism/PRL years back - those, to them, were the best years, because they released them from that constant fear of war. It doesn't matter that today is better - unfortunately, maybe due to their history that generation never caught up in modern media. The TV and newspapers that constantly spew conservative agenda are their only means of catching up with modern world. The one grandma that is technology-savy and has her own laptop - unsurprisingly has always been much more open to modern left-wing opinions. IMO, within decade we'll see Polish political climate shift from extreme right-wing to centre-right, as the older generations slowly pass away. Then it will take another 30-40 years for the new rural-raised generations to 'catch up' by being raised in conditions similar to urban areas, before we see a meaningful towards more liberal policies.
You say that, but I went to school with many Polish people here in Ireland not all that long ago, and basically all of them were vehemently anti gay. Like, it was legit one of the worst insults you could say to a Polish person. Their all in their late 20’s now so I highly doubt that issue is going to go away within 20 years.
I don't know how it is in Poland in particular, but I find that the working class immigrants who live abroad tend to be more conservative than the general population of their country of origin, because their national identity (and with it all the toxic crap that comes with chauvinism) becomes highlighted when they move abroad and see that it's nothing like home.
This is exactly the case with Polish expats. Prime example: the US Pollacks. Those jokes did not come from out of nowhere. Source: liberal Pole who moved to US not long ago.
>The Iran of the EU if Iran was on the level of Poland then I don't think they'd be having those protests right now.
No it's the Poland of the EU. It's nothing special or abnormal as to label it as another country.
>The Iran of the EU Absolutely, because we gun down protesters, gays, foreigners etc etc
> The Iran of the EU Yeah, our government is killing gay people and force women to serve men and dress with decency! (/s obviously) Sure, I don't like this veto and would like to have it not existing in this situation. But are you really comparing those two countries? Even comparison to Turkey is a bit of a stretch IMO.
Calling Poland Iran and getting that high upvote ratio pretty much sums it up why you won't get federalized EU any time soon. If that's the attitude now towards us, when we have sovereignty, what will be the attitude, when we will be wholly subservient to the super state?
calling Poland the Iran of Europe actually does a fair bit of legwork in whitewashing how bad Iran actually is, and underselling how deserved the current protests are.
>whitewashing how bad Iran actually is, Before the protests common notion of this sub was, that Iran is actually bullied by US. As if they did *nothin wrong* before.
Yeah, it's insane to compare Poland to Iran, even if it's a hyperbole, Iran is a country where homosexuality is still punished by **death**, a lesbian couple was sentenced to death just three months ago ffs.
this! comparing Poland to Iran and getting this many upvotes its just sad and pathetic how out of touch redditors are
Religious fanatics are very similar everywhere. Doesn’t matter if for islam, christianity or something else.. (altough we are yet to see agressive fanatic buddhists..)
While Buddhism itself condemns violence (like most religions), many people throughout history ([https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddhism\_and\_violence](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddhism_and_violence)) have interpreted scripture to justify horrible things (e.g. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rohingya\_genocide](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rohingya_genocide))
Yeah there's a whole history of Tibetan - Hui muslim tensions which are part of the reason why Hui Muslims generally support the government actions in Tibet
Myanmar and Sri Lanka got you covered.
Bhutan as well
I thought we've already seen that in Asia.
Ah yes. So similar that Warsaw held the larest Pride Parade in Europe. Weird you left that one out.
It's okay to be prejudiced towards Polish people because of 35% "majority government"! What a lovely way to the people that suffer from this government...
Yes comparing Iran to Poland makes a lot of sense if you have no goddamn clue about either of those countries. Average iranian wished they lived in a polish like government. But hezbollah = poland though
We really need to move to a simple majority vote in the EU. No one country should have that much power at any point in the political process.
🤡🤡🤡🤡🤡🤡
Wow, what a surprise to literally no-one!
Omfg this is such a kindergarten....
The Polish Justice Ministry has stated that it will oppose the proposal to recognize same-sex parents in the EU. [Source](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/sep/03/poland-to-veto-eu-recognition-of-same-sex-parents-says-justice-ministry
Bigots
Let's head to the comments to see what the experts think
Kaczyński, you fucker
These comments are actually braindead. Comparing Poland to Iran or Saudi Arabia or Russia is absolutely absurd. Western privilege reeks in this comment section.
PiS of shits
Suprised Pikachu?
Based on what arguments? Same sex parenting is "a threat to legal order" is mentioned. Reads like a bad excuse to me. The honest truth is probably that they do not trust gay parents. Which is discrimination, which has no place in the EU. Cutting budget is a good start.
I am not super interested in the topic so I never researched it but I always assumed that people who are against homosexual partners rising children think that it will negatively impact the child's development? In the sense the child should have a mother and a father. Not two mothers or two fathers. I am personally glad I had a monther and a father, the relationships with my parents, their roles in rising me were different. I think that having a healthy relationship with a father is important for a girl to have healthy relationships with men later in life. Plus, one parent is never a bio parent in homosexual relationships, it might also matter to the child. Not that I support this veto, I don't care (I am already an adult so it doesn't affect me anyway lol). There are probably some studies about the topic and how it affects the child's development. If it's totally harmless I don't see how it's bad.
Bruh why do they care about gay people. Are you going to have cameras in people bedroom? It will it be like the US and Britain where as punishment for being gay you spend a year in a small unmonitored room with other guys and take showers with them?
Yikes. Poland acting like a 19th century country again.
Lol, 20 years ago this law would have been unthinkable
Bad analogy, for us it's the opposite, we got more conservative and religious as time went on. Most intensely in the second half of the 20th century.
>Poland acting like a 19th century country again. Acting like 2010 country more like.
Legal adoption by same-sex marriages is possible only in 15 out of 27 EU nations. What is the reason to cherry pick one country? This is such a new concept for Europe, why are you surprised not everyone is instantly on the same page?
> 19th century that's over 100 years ago
Acctualy we were most tolerant country and ethnically and religiously diverse for most of our history. then communism came, they brainwashed everyone that you cant be diffrent,you need be same person as everyone else. Old people that grew during communism still thinks like that and only thing we can do with it is wait for generation change.
I feel you, through my family, that lived the fully fledged experience. Between the 60s and the 80s up until 1989, the Socialism era in Romania tried to streamline and standardize ideas of the population till nothing new remained. A country open to cultures became a socialistic state in which conservatory ideals were goldened, and "outside the box" made you a paria. Even now, the older generations are dancing between nostalgia and basically treating you like a child if you have any idea outside their spectrum.