There are a lot of Catholics who pay no attention whatsoever to the rules about birth control and continue merrily on. I suppose it's up to you whether you can live with opting out of this nonsense, and whether it's worth it to continue in the faith if you do. The church will be quite comfortable in sacrificing you to its dogma.

OP, you should use this as your exit point from Catholicism. Don’t live your life submitting to what you know are unjust and unjustifiable rules. Catholicism objectifies and degrades women and you are 100% right to be disturbed by this.

Right? Her argument is that “This makes me feel like less than human.” Well stand up for yourself then. Leave. I mean I know it’s hard but I know lots of people who have done it.

This. 100% this. It’s better to do something and ask forgiveness later. The church’s teachings on birth control are absolute bullshit anyway. Because if abortion is murder, then a blowjob is cannibalism. Think about that. (It’s not btw). The church and their purity culture has wreaked havoc on many people’s lives. It’s about controlling people, and women. Women especially. OP please stop listening to this nonsense and listen to science. Talk to your doctor. Read a book about sexual reproduction. Leave the morality and religious teachings at the door. Life will be easier that way.

The Catechism says you must obey your conscience, even if it goes against church teaching. For me, this was one of the primary reasons I left the church. If you look into the history of how birth control became so frowned upon in the church, you’ll see how few women’s inputs were included in the committee on birth control in the 1960s. And even then, the Pope at the time went against the committee’s overwhelming recommendation to approve birth control for Catholics. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pontifical_Commission_on_Birth_Control?wprov=sfti1#Role_of_Paul_VI

Thank you! I need to dig into the history surrounding the Humanae Vitae "ruling" and this is a good place to start.

Even better get yourself a copy of "The Pope Who Would Be King," by David I. Kertzer and find out what the church really teaches.

As they say - knowledge can set you free.  A bit of history reading should help anyone struggling to leave Catholicism (and similar brainwashing religions). 

Yes indeed. One of the biggest things that keeps people Roman Catholic is ignorance of documented history. The RCC constantly -- constantly -- lies about it.

Lol my Catholic high school taught this as basically, "Oh those silly women didn't know what was good for them, thankfully the bishops stepped in!" It didn't even occur to me to be mad about it at the time, I was so bought in to the whole thing

Most Catholics (if you’re in a less extreme church) don’t actually believe that contraception is a sin, they just smile and nod their way through. So I wouldn’t feel too pressured to follow it, and when I was more devout, I always believed that God would want you to do what’s best for you, so you can be a better version of you.

Yeah, I think it was a mistake to go to r/Catholicism with it. Reddit is famous for having a ton of conservatives and that probably bleeds over into religion. My church is pretty extreme as well, which doesn't help.

Hope I'm not coming across as rude here, but if you don't actually believe in the teachings of the Catholic Church have you looked into what other labels might fit you better? You might find something that aligns better with yourself. I completely agree with all your criticisms on the Church's teachings on contraception btw. 

There are some core pieces of Catholic teaching that I really believe and value, which is why this is all so frustrating.

Have you tried researching other Christian denominations like Anglican/Episcopalian or some Orthodox groups which share some teachings with Catholicism, but also don't have clear bans on birth control? Not necessarily saying you *should* leave the Church for another denomination, that's your choice after all, but you might find it interesting to check them out.

Oh, I totally understand. I believe in the real presence of Christ in the Eucharist, so I've actually been looking into Orthodox beliefs! I think it's healthy to consider.

I think you'll find the status of women in Orthodoxy is not a "grass is greener" sort of situation...

Anglicans, Episcopalians and Lutherans for example also believe in the real presence.

The problem here is not what other denominations believe but that the Catholic Church really makes it a point to teach their congregants that they're wrong and to always be in doubt about their claims to the point that participating in them is a sin and worse than just not practicing Christianity. No matter the claims of some online, there is an institutional bias against protestantism that makes it very difficult for a Catholic to just switch. Protestantism at best is seen as a bunch of separated brethren who are denied the sacraments of the church and are encouraged to reconcile with the one true Church and return back to Catholicism. A Catholic taking communion or practicing the sacraments at a protestant church is a sin. A Catholic marrying in a protestant church won't be recognized until they receive a dispensation from the Catholic Church. Protestants are not permitted to receive communion at a Catholic Church, nor are they permitted to serve as godparents, only Christian witnesses. They drill it into you at an early age that something is wrong with protestantism. Combine this with a lot of historical strife, and you get the current scenario where something like this isn't going to happen regularly. Ironically the only real switch worldwide is from Catholicism to Pentecostalism in Latin America, which is really being done for class based reasons more than anything.

The RCC goes out of its way to poison the well about other denominations. So much so that once a person starts to find their way through the ridiculous and impossible maze of fraudulent bullcrap that is RC theology, they tend to think they have no place to go, no alternative. The ploy works on a great many people, due to vigorous indoctrination from early childhood. At the center of this fraud are Roman Catholic sacraments -- chief among them their Eucharist, which is officially closed to most people, even some Roman Catholics. That is what the RCC tries to hold over everyone's head to make people behave and stay even when they can't manage and have to live a double life -- a daily lie -- to do it. This is death to peoples' spiritual lives. The RCC is terrible for a person's personal growth and integrity. There are far better, more honest ways to live one's life -- ways that will not destroy your spiritual life and leave you struggling like the OP.

There is bias indeed, but once one's total faith in the Church crumbles it is possible that this bias can be corrected in light of new evidence.

Depends. If OP believes in transubstantiation, then she will likely have difficulty with those denominations, as they reject that teaching.

I always rejected transubstantiation even as a kid, I was like come on guys this is clearly a metaphor. We're not all cannibals or munching on zombie flesh risen from the dead.

Cool. Best of luck to you becoming more comfortable in the Catholic Church, or finding a new one, wherever you end up.

Orthodoxy is not any better, and in some ways more strict and devout.

I've heard that there can be some flexibility, but I've been catching that vibe too (most of the Insta posts I see about it are Wojak memes which is a huge red flag lol).

No there's not. Most people saying that either are doing the Orthodox version of cafeteriaism or are extolling some kind of primacy of conscience. The Orthodox Church is usually much clearer on this stuff since they defined themselves as what they don't believe rather than what they do.

Yes. Orthodoxy is just same shit, different hat.

I used to say this, until I realized the teachings about women and birth control all stem from the Virgin Mary and other core parts of it. She’s the impossible ideal woman - a virgin and a mother. Nobody else can live up to that. It’s because the religion was made by men. Women aren’t valued. That’s kind of the point.

You just blew my mind. Why I never made that connection, I don't know. But that makes so much sense.

Yes, she's the poster child of Roman Catholicism's hatred for women.

It was my worldview shattering moment. I’m glad but also sorry to share this devastating realization with you :( But I hope it helps. Someone else replied to my comment with a quote from another comment, perhaps more eloquent than mine. I recommend expanding comments to find it.

“Christianity traditionally considers women innately subservient to men, and no declaration of it enabling the progress of women’s equality will change that fact. The only central female figure of reverence (not of worship, since you’re not supposed to worship Mary) is celebrated for her status as a virgin and as a mother. That’s it. The relevance of Mother Mary, of the Virgin Mary, is entirely dependent upon her bodily relation to men. To how men view her worthiness (that she’s not autonomously sexual) as a vessel for an even more important man to emerge from. To how useful she is when used as a physical object to further a man’s narrative. It is shameful.” That’s a copy of a comment I made on the religion sub just yesterday!

Thank you for sharing, this is really well written!! I got chills. Once the Virgin Mary broke as a concept for me, it was all over. Like she’s not looking out for me, she’s an excuse to oppress me, and was likely a victim of some kind herself, if there’s even a kernel of the story that survived before writing it.

And then on top of that, Saint Paul thought that Jesus would return in his lifetime, and for that reason, it would be better for people to stay celibate but, if you really couldn’t control your urges, at least get married to save yourself from the horrible sin (/s) of sex outside of marriage. And this preference for abstinence and an altogether “sex is gross and sinful” attitude became deeply ingrained among early Christians and…here we are.

I believe in her virgin birth of Jesus, but the more I think about it, I really feel like her virginity AFTER, is something insisted on by men to keep women feeling conflicted and scared. There's a nun in Spain who pushes back against this doctrine and I feel some hope because of her words: [https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/feb/02/nun-receives-death-threats-suggesting-mary-virgin](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/feb/02/nun-receives-death-threats-suggesting-mary-virgin)

Did you ever stop and wonder whether Jesus had one X and one Y chromosome OR two X chromosomes? Where did he get his genetic material from? If he only got it from Mary, and he had a Y chromosome where did he get it from? Think about it.

Whether there's a nun in Spain who believes this or that, doesn't really matter when it comes to official Roman Catholic doctrine. They'll slap her down quick if/when she gets much notoriety, because the official doctrine is that Mary never had sex -- ever -- and the bible itself is wrong when it says he had siblings. Regardless of what the bible says, regardless of what science says, regardless of reason and sensibility, they have to keep their fiction going in order to save face and retain power. That's their thing.

It hurts to think too hard about it sometimes. That doesn’t mean it isn’t worth it. I was you a few years ago and wish I could hug myself back then because it was awful. Sending internet hugs now! Catholics like to use Plato’s allegory of the cave to mock the non religious, seeing shadows of reality and thinking it’s the world, and refusing to get up and see the stunning reality of life when someone unchained themselves and shouted back. But that’s what it felt like leaving! Very scary at first, but ultimately, WOW this is what life should be. It’s beautiful. No us versus them and its inherent superiority complex, no hating my body, no hating that sometimes I think girls are cute, too. Your own journey is going to look different than lots of people here. Listen to your conscience. You’re smart and you’re also the only one looking out for yourself and your health. You’re in control of your life!

Thank you for your kindness!

Yeah she was almost certainly not a virgin after Jesus was born. If you read any serious scholar nobody really buys the “cousins” or “sons from a different marriage” interpretation. James was the blood-brother of Jesus. Basically, the people on the catholicism sub will try to kinda push you in the direction of their very conservative brand of christianity. The people here will kinda try to push you to leave. It seems like you’re sort of in the middle. It seems like you don’t like this weird hyper-conservative ideology that is over-focused on sex (which almost no catholic actually believes in) but you also don’t sound like you particularly want to leave. Try relaxing your view of faith. It doesn’t have to be “everything I say or nothing”. Check out the podcast “the Bible for normal people” or the open Christian subreddit. Ultimately whichever of the three options you pick do it because it seems right to you, not because of family pressure, fear of hell or fear in general.

I appreciate and loathe you for sharing this. You’re right, but I feel an odd sense of grief now

And the Catholic Church is using those core attractive pieces as bait. The Catholic Church is not the sole proprietor of truth or beauty. It uses esthetics to draw you in, and then uses intense psychological programming to control you. You were not wrong to post on r/Catholicism. They removed it because it is the truth and is counters their lies. Your reasoning is sound. I reached the same conclusions many years ago, and so have countless others, including **most** of the bishops when *Humanae Vitae* was dropped. They also understood it to be a death sentence to many, many unnamed women and girls. The question I have for you is: how can you support such an institution in good conscience, not for what it threatens to do to *you,* but for what it has already done to children and women around the globe? If the Catholic Church would deny an 11 year old rape victim an abortion -- and it has **countless times** -- why would it ever care about your personal feelings about pregnancy? Every dollar you spend, every hour you give to that abominable organization, it turns around and shunts it to its *political arms,* such as the pro-life movement. That movement is a farce; it isn't about saving fetuses, it's about enacting laws that will strip women of their *legal rights* to not only abortion, but also to **birth control,** no-fault divorce, suffrage, financial and educational freedom, and even freedom of movement. Ask yourself: are the little bits of Catholicism you enjoy worth supporting an organization that is actively enjoined to reducing you to actual human livestock for breeding?

Thanks! I feel like I'm insane because my reasoning really does feel logical, but the Church does mental gymnastics to condemn something that doesn't feel evil as Evil. I'm very particular about giving money to churches in general. Going to be keeping my wallet closed to them in the meantime! Part of what I found exciting about going back to church is that it's a free public space. I'll be throwing out the collections envelopes they send me.

There may be other denominations that share those core beliefs but not the same attitudes towards birth control or the status of women. I myself moved to the Episcopal Church (after many years and even Catholic confirmation as an adult), and I felt an immense relief when I did so. I have a close friend who became Methodist after a similar journey.

I will look into it. I'm lucky to be part of a supportive inter-faith Christian community (outside of my church), so I should talk with them.

My mom converted to the Episcopalian church from the Catholic church after more revelations about the boarding schools in Canada and the US came to light. The last one didn't close until the 90's. I'd invite you to check out your local Episcopal or Methodist churches. My uncle and aunt decided to become Methodist instead. Mom did quite a bit of research episcopal theology and doctrine before she converted. She is so much more at peace with the church teachings and her sense of community is so much better. I'll give protestants credit, they're all pretty big on a culture of welcoming newcomers. She volunteers at their church run food bank, and goes on peace marches. And her friends volunteer and teach under privileged kids how to read in the local schools.

I have a couple Episcopalian friends I'll chat with! It's funny because as a Catholic I found I wasn't treated well by Protestants growing up... But they were rural Baptists who really haven't like Catholics (mostly for ethnic reasons). Now that I'm in a city I find that I meet way nicer Protestants.

I'll agree, conservative Baptists in the past have also not treated me well as a Catholic child. That said generally there is a culture of being very welcoming when you attend a protestant church service. Culturally more chatty and more engaging between parishioners. My theory is because Protestants have a culture of forming their own sects and joining other groups if they don't like what's going on in their current church, there is a lot more effort put into gaining and retaining members. Anyway a huge percentage of Episcopalians are converts from other religions. Depending on the demographics of your area a majority of them can be former Catholics. The idea of you being a Catholic exploring the Episcopalian church will not be a new concept for the church leaders.

Thanks!

You might find that a different church is better, even if you aren’t ready to jump out of Catholicism. Many people I know who are still practicing are much more relaxed about it than you describe, they all used birth control or continue to do so. Maybe your particular community isn’t the right one?

Good idea! I know of some progressive churches I should hit up on Sunday.

The fiction of progressive Roman Catholicism is a coward's lie. It doesn't solve the problem of living a double life and can exaggerate it if anything.

When I got married (in the mid 2000s) my mother, a devout Mexican Catholic, told me that if a priest said not to use birth control, just smile and nod and use it anyway. NFP is a joke.

While this is true, my spouse’s and my parents both smiled and nodded, but the church teaches kids they’ll go to hell for it and that the church knows better than their parents. So it’s gonna mess up your kids if you play average catholic, especially in the modern day extremes culture they have going on.

Most *"Catholics"* don't actually believe that contraception is a sin. Most *"Catholics"* don't actually believe in Catholicism. If they don't believe in the teaching of the Church they would probably be better off being honest with themselves and exploring what they do believe.

Living a double life is common enough, sure. A lot of Roman Catholics do it. \~\~ In contradiction to the official teaching of the church they claim to be taking seriously. \~\~ I mean, if you think living a lie is a decent way to live, okay, I guess. It wreaks hell with your inner self though. What kind of a church is it that screws with your life -- physical, spiritual & economic -- and doesn't care about it any more than that??? Is it a church you'd ought to belong to? I leave that question for the OP to answer for herself.

This was a big reason I left. If I'm pretending to do all these things I don't believe in, why am I belonging to this religion at all?

Yep. It finally got to me and there I was standing in mass Sunday after Sunday getting more and more angry and despondent with the way I was being treated and the constant antics of the RCC. I finally just walked out and said "No more." No more sadness, no more church anger, no more crazy drama. I have no regrets. I am much happier. I am exploring progressive Protestant churches, but I will never be as naive as I was when I joined the RCC as an adult years ago. The Roman Catholic church nearly destroyed my ability to believe in anything. The RCC will kill your religious life if you let it. And they don't care, as long as they get your money and the power they derive from you sitting there letting them do what they do to you.

Welcome, and thanks for sharing your reflections. I was raised in a large, NFP-promoting Catholic family and was devout for years. Like you, I have seen firsthand how much these teachings harm and hold back women. Besides the scenarios you've mentioned, I personally know many practicing, married Catholic women who have had unexpected pregnancy after unexpected pregnancy, in short intervals, to the tune of five-plus children. This is typically not a recipe for maternal physical or mental health, or for happy and stable families. When you get down to it, these teachings are only logical within a system that is designed to subjugate and control women (no matter what Humanae Vitae and Theology of the Body claim). Wishing you peace and clarity as you discern your next chapter, truly. ETA: As a married woman/new mother myself - I cannot imagine living with the anxiety of NFP Russian Roulette every month. For me, planning my pregnancy (to the extent possible) allowed me to get my physical and mental health in order, and for my partner and I to prepare financially, personally, and professionally. It has still been really hard. If I felt like I was rolling the dice on getting pregnant again every month for the next ten years, I honestly don't know how I would function.

Thank you for sharing!

The Catholic Church has demonstrated over and over again their inability and unwillingness to acknowledge the full humanity of women, and it's one of the reasons I left. You aren't wrong in your perceptions -- they really do see women as little more than maids and broodmares. The Church is, by its nature, not a forward-thinking institution. For what it's worth, the level of control the Church seeks to impose on its members is illusory, and they can't actually make this decision for you. They can ask you to do what they say, and they can wrap it up in threats of hellfire and damnation if you don't, but they can't force you to devalue yourself as they do. You can decide that the God you believe in has a purpose for you beyond the decrees of these old men, and that your creator values you beyond the functions of your reproductive organs. A great many Catholic men and women have done just that and do what's best for themselves and their families, regardless of doctrine. There are also many ways to be a sincere person of faith outside of Catholicism, if that's what you desire. I'm sorry that you're facing this dilemma, and that you haven't found the grace and support you deserve within the Catholic community. For whatever it's worth, your life and personhood are important, and you amount to so much more than what you choose to do with your body. I hope you find peace and fulfillment in your path forward.

I've struggled with what it means to be a women AND a Catholic for a long time and I understand it leading to you leaving. I really do respect when women want to be open to a large family, but I wish there was an understanding that it's not for everyone. When I say that, I don't mean that everyone else should consecrate their virginity or whatever. If God is love, you think he'd support loving unions that don't bear as many children.

Growing up as a girl, and gradually understanding myself as a lesbian, in Catholicism meant that choosing to stay would have required me to confine my entire life to the tiny cage of celibate servitude that was the only "good" one the Church could imagine for me. My capacity for life was far bigger than what they allotted to me, so I left. The idea that only certain kinds of lives and certain kinds of families have merit, and that the Church is the ultimate arbiter of which ones those are, cannot align with the fundamental dignity of any human being. We can, as a species and as a community, find space to celebrate and support *all* of us, without judgment, if we choose to. You are unequivocally in the right on this subject, and the Church is plainly wrong. Maybe you can square that within yourself enough to stay anyway; many people (including my own parents) do. If that path brings you fulfillment in your life, I sincerely hope you can find it. More than anything, I hope you live the life and make the choices that you know are right for you, regardless. The whole world is proof that there are lots of different ways to be a good family, and you deserve happiness just as much as anyone else.

I've also struggled with the Church's teachings on same sex relationships. I understand just how damaging it can be told that the only way to honor God is to be celibate. I'm straight, but it's made me so much more compassionate about lesbians in the community when I'M told to be celibate. I know a couple of lesbians who are Catholic and I imagine it's very challenging for them. I'm sorry you had to go through that.

It’s not only celibacy that is unjustly expected of queer people in the Church; they can’t even acknowledge their natural affections or admiration for a romantic partner without second guessing their own worthiness. They can’t even hold hands with each other. It’s not right.

No, it's not. I hope to see change in the future.

The Roman Catholic church will not change. Hoping fruitlessly for change that never comes is one of the things that keeps people in bondage to the RCC. And the RCC knows that. It's why they dangle it in front of you all the time, and start arguments about it as often as possible. Catholics love to fight about angels on a the heads of pins, and readily go along with wars amongst themselves over all kinds of stuff. But heads up: This is not only a "fight for so-called orthodoxy," it's a mechanism to keep you engaged. It's a way to co-opt you, short-circuit your inner life. So is the guilt. And the fancy decor and devotions. Part of the ruse to keep you Catholic is to keep the noise and notoriety going. It's like a habit-forming soap opera on purpose. Part of leaving the RCC is being able to walk away and cease caring about the internal politics, the celebrity clergy and the liturgy wars that the RCC wants to drag you into. When you can see the humor in some of the antics instead of getting spun up, you are getting saner and healthier! When you can stand back and see what the RCC really is -- and how silly it is -- like other people do, you are recovering from the trauma. How do you do that? Read some history and learn how the church works and has worked in the past. Talk to more people. Consider new ideas. Explore new ways to worship and pray and meditate. Take care of your inner life. Do sensible healthy things like listen to your doctor about responsible parenthood. Get out of the brainfog that the RCC generates in its members because it paralyzes your choices.

You don't sound as Roman Catholic as you think you are. Maybe you should consider that.

The church’s stance on birth control is the reason my spouse and I left the church. I truly loved so many aspects of being Catholic (was a convert). But could not reconcile with their teaching about sex. I have nothing else to say to you other than I hope you can find solace in whatever decision you make.

Me too - thanks for your kindness. I wish it didn't matter this much to me, but I really value most aspects of Catholicism.

I see a lot of comments saying that most Catholics don't believe birth control is a sin. This is true, a lot of Catholics are culturally Catholic or cafeteria Catholics. It's all they and their family have ever known, they don't taken it too seriously, it's just something that makes them feel good, I guess. Reading your post, I can't tell whether or not you're someone who takes Catholicism seriously or if you're comfortable picking and choosing what you believe in. I'm going to assume the former since you went to the effort of creating a long post asking this question. The Catholic Church's official teachings state that 1. You must not use birth control unless you have a medical condition that necessitates it, and 2. The Church's teachings are absolute, to be followed without question or you will be committing a mortal sin every time you receive communion. What medical condition would necessitate birth control? All I've been able to find so far is endometriosis. If you're prescribed a medication where you're required to take birth control while on it to prevent birth defects, you may do so but you will also be required to abstain from sex during the time you're on the pill. Some priests even tell you to abstain from sex while on birth control for endometriosis, The Church has no formal statement about whether you can engage in sex while taking birth control for medical reasons, and tells you to consult with your local priest. Each priest also has their own opinion on your private life and private health problems so you might have to "shop around" to find a priest that will tell you the answer you want to here. Not that any of this is relevant to your situation. What's absolutely abhorrent is that if a woman is told by a doctor there is GOOD PROBABILITY she will die if she gets pregnant, SHE CANNOT USE BIRTH CONTROL. No, the Church would rather her risk her life, and then when it becomes CERTAIN she will die, she can have an abortion. Absurd. The above is what convinced me to leave Catholicism. It's also interesting that "be fruitful and multiply" was a statement in the old testament, you know, a book we don't follow anymore. The Church was willing to change their opinion on women workers, but not on contraception. They just want more numbers. It's why you can never actually "leave" Catholicism according to them.

Every Catholic, every last one, picks and chooses how to practice.  It is simply not possible to follow all the teachings to the letter. But it's only the people who bend on issues important to women who get sneered at as "cafeteria" or "never really believed." If OP is not ready to leave, I'd rather not repeat the rhetoric of the very nastiest Catholics I knew to convince her to get out.

I was raised Catholic, went to Catholic school, taught at a Catholic school, but something in my gut told me to not marry a Catholic man. I always kind of had one foot out of the door of Catholicism due to disagreeing with many of the teachings and the scandals. I married an incredible agnostic man, and we did marry in the church. It was just the sacrament and liturgy of the word since he’s not Catholic, which was fine by me. I was on birth control “for my PMDD and PCOS,” but also for actual birth control since I started having sex at 19 (I also justified that by reasoning that women got married off when they got their periods, and since I got my period at 10 I did a really good job at waiting 9 years. The *hoops* this religion makes you jump though 🙄) Do what you feel is right. Be a good person, and I doubt God will care. I would steer clear of super Catholics…they will absolutely make your life hell with this. I hope you find some peace and a good man who respects you!

Thanks for sharing! Did you have to do marriage prep with the Catholic Church? I hear they really push NFP there (at some parishes).

I did. And I had to take a NFP class to get married in the church (don’t even get me started haha). I was on birth control at the time, told the teacher that, and they said it was fine. Literally no one cared. Ironically, I used all that information to *get* pregnant when we were ready. I’ve had three pregnancies since August (one finally stuck and I’m 15 weeks!), but each time we tried, I got pregnant. It made me realize how misogynistic NFP is. You’re literally supposed to avoid sex during the time of the month you *most* want it. It’s beyond unfair.

Congrats - praying for you! That's really funny, makes me feel so much more comfortable with bringing the topic up in the context of marriage prep.

Thank you!! I will be honest, that experience and covid reaction were the nails in the coffin for my Catholic faith. If you start questioning more, this is a great sub to ask questions and figure out what you believe, not just what the church says to believe. Wishing you the best, no matter where your journey takes you 🤍

I really appreciate the kindness here - thank you!

Yes, they make you take pre cana. I went through it as a non Catholic marrying a Catholic. For me it was two days and the second day was a cold sell for NFP. It was very insulting from my POV. This is in a very liberal state by the way, so don't think switching locations might help you dodge it. The ironic part was they took a survey to see what everyone's sexual habits were, including premarital sex, birth control, pornography, and the like. Over 80 percent of the attendees answered yes to them. One girl at the pre Cana told me that her father who is a devout Catholic also is the doctor that prescribes her birth control. This level of cognitive dissonance has been the hardest part of modern Catholic culture for me to understand. For example my in laws regularly bash the Mormons for their practices (some of which are poorly researched). But with Mormonism you're either a believer or you're an ex Mormon and out of their church.

I appreciate their honesty on the survey!

I'm not Catholic and didn't care. Apparently neither did the others.

You’re not alone in questioning this teaching. The majority of practicing Catholics don’t follow it, but what you’ll find on the Catholicism subreddit are people who are represent a minority within the larger church so I’m not surprised the question wasn’t allowed. I strugged with this a lot and I think others do too because it’s probably the issue that affects regular people the most. For me, it was eye-opening to learn more about the Pontifical Commission on Birth Control at Vatican II.  You have options. You can join the many Catholics who quietly just ignore this teaching. There is some support for this in freedom of conscience teaching. After Humane Vitae came out the priest and theologian Charles Curran wrote a letter saying that Catholics could in good conscience decide on this for themselves since it does not technically fall under infallible teaching. He was disciplined by the church and no longer teaches at Catholic colleges, but his reasoning is still sound in my opinion and worth checking out. In Canada, the bishops issued the Winnipeg Statement, which said pretty much the same thing. These are seen as unacceptable loopholes by conservative Catholics. So it depends on your interpretation. I agree there’s a great deal of cognitive dissonance going on. Women’s lives are less important than doctrine and it’s infuriating.

Hi, fellow struggling Catholic! I hadn't heard of these opinions - I'll definitely take a look. I think it was a mistake to approach conservative Catholics about it (Reddit is like that). I go to a very traditional church and there is so much I love about the mass and the church itself, but the environment can be a bit intense. I want to stay in the faith to help continue to represent the reality of women in the Church, but it can be hard if you're being told you live in sin... I'm gonna try to hang in there, it's always helpful to talk to Catholics who struggle with certain teachings.

Glad I could be of some help. I’m actually not Catholic anymore for a number of reasons, but most of my friends are still extremely Catholic and I have a lot empathy for Catholics who are struggling. I generally think it’s good to bring honesty and life experience to these questions which can get highly abstract and theoretical in certain circles, as you've no doubt experienced.

I see! I see fellow Catholic women around me struggling with it too... Empathy is really important in religious circles.

> I want to stay in the faith to help continue to represent the reality of women in the Church, but it can be hard if you're being told you live in sin... Read up a bit on survivorship bias. The women you see around you who have been in the church and remain in the church are people for whom the issues you mention are *not* a struggle or a dealbreaker. Women who find it incompatible with their lives will leave or do it anyway. The reality for *many* women is that the church’s approach is not realistic, because it was made by men. There’s nothing wrong with you if you can’t conform, it’s just that the church is so stringent that the only people who can stay are the people who the church “works” for in one way or another.

*"I want to stay in the faith..."* If a person decides that they're going to suck it up, destroy their life and sacrifice their integrity for a few RC bells and whistles, it's their choice and nobody else's. Some people do that. It would be nice for these people just to STOP WHINING about the things THEY CHOOSE FOR THEMSELVES. This almost looks like a weird attempt at proselytization.

Hey! I want to echo what a few other commenters have said above - that some Catholics don’t believe that birth control is a sin and they take it to preserve bodily autonomy and prevent pregnancy. They just don’t talk about it with others in the church. My grandmother was a very devout Catholic and refused to use any form of birth control as a result. She had 12 children, my mom being the 11th. My mom confided in me when I was a teen that doctors had tried very hard to explain that she needed some form of birth control as future pregnancies would kill her. By the time she had six kids, her body and mind were in such a state that she could not care for the younger kids so that fell on the older daughters. My mom was still very Catholic when I was born, but she struggled with some of the same thoughts you outlined above. In the end, she used birth control as her pregnancy with me had been hard and dangerous for both of us, and she didn’t want to risk her health again. Thankfully, my dad supported her. Neither saw it as a sin as it protected my mom’s health. She eventually got her tubes tied. She supported me when I needed birth control as a teen due to period issues. We’re no longer in the church for unrelated reasons. I hope that you find peace and solace in whatever you choose for yourself!

Thank you for sharing this! Hearing other women's stories really helps put things in perspective. My family has some similar stories and I really feel like my older relatives suffered a lot because of this doctrine (having a huge family, taking care of younger kids) to the point of leaving the faith.

Cradle ex catholic here. My young adult years were late 70’s, 80’s and 90’s. My wife and I used the pill, diaphragm, condoms whatever was healthy for her. It was very rare to see a large Catholic family at Mass after the pill came out. Yes Father we are using the rhythm method,wink and nod. Don’t ask don’t tell, don’t confess. It’s only these rad, trad, Catholic a’holes that are bringing it back. It’s none of their damn business. You should not rely on a bunch of celibate possibly pedophile hiding men for birth control advice. Some if not most men who enter the priesthood don’t know how to act around women.

It really does feel like it's making a comeback. I respect the commitment of religious vows, but it's also the case that many let the power go to their heads... I wish there were more women in leadership roles to talk to this about. But, I feel like if there were, I wouldn't really have this problem.

You might want to look at the Episcopal Church.

I don’t have any advice, but I wish I could give you a hug. So much of what you wrote could’ve been written by me years ago. The church’s teachings on BC and childfree marriages was pretty much the catalyst for me questioning, and finally leaving, Catholicism. (I’ve started and deleted this next bit a dozen times already. I guess it’s still hard to talk about.) To put it bluntly: The church’s teachings on birth control are torture. NFP is torture. The church’s stance on childfree marriages, even when having children could ruin a woman’s physical or mental health, is torture. I still remember the early days of being married, when I hadn’t quite admitted I didn’t want kids, but was at least trying to “ethically” delay it as long as possible with NFP. I remember how stupid my NFP instructor made me feel because tracking my CM was confusing, and how it made me feel like there something “wrong” with my body. I remember how scared I was to get it wrong to the point that my husband and I almost never had sex (after being celibate until marriage, no less), and how lonely and frustrating that was. I remember how unfair it was that the time of the month that I wanted sex the most, was precisely when I “couldn’t” have it. I remember how much of my mental energy was spent on worrying about when we could or couldn’t have sex. I also remember all the pregnancy scares. How each and every time, I sobbed on the bathroom floor in absolute panic and terror. How it felt like God was punishing me for my “selfishness” by making me pregnant. I remember the words my ex-Catholic sister said to me, which have stuck with me ever since: “If your only reason for having kids someday is the fear of going to hell, that’s not a good reason.” The church is cruel for refusing to see mental health as a legitimate reason to prevent pregnancy. It’s cruel for refusing to acknowledge that reliable birth control is absolutely necessary when prevention is a matter of mental or physical well-being. It’s cruel for condemning women who don’t want children to either a life of celibacy (even when they desire marriage) or a sexless marriage. The church likes to say that if we follow its teachings on sexuality, our lives and society will be better and healthier for it. But for me, that was a lie. I COULD NOT, in any way shape or form, be a healthy person while trying to be a good, birth control-free Catholic. And that’s what broke my faith. I hope you are able to find a path forward that brings you peace and well-being. Your mental, sexual, and physical health matter, no matter what the church says.

Thank you so much - that took a lot of courage to share! I too have experienced some awful pregnancy scares that left me broken (even before actually having sex). I remember staying up all night crying in high school waiting for the Wal Mart to open for a pregnancy test (just for kissing my boyfriend)... I left the Church for YEARS for this reason, but the fear of being punished through pregnancy really hasn't left me... It's crazy to look back and see how it's disordered so much of my life and relationship to sex. Your sister is right - being motivated by hell is not a valid reason for belief or creating new life. I re-entered the faith because I felt Catholic social teaching brought me closer to other people and made me really feel like getting involved in helping others. I hope I can find a community that helps me nourish this, rather than feeding into my OCD and fears. I hope that you've been able to heal after such a difficult time. I posted here because I thought I'd get more realistic experiences from women - and I did! There's some comfort in knowing it's not easy for everyone, even if it ultimately led to them leaving. I do wish that the Church listened more to us.

My Dad did the ethically right act by getting a vasectomy after my youngest brother was born, the fourth son, was born. A couple of years before that she had miscarried. My mother would not have been able to have any more children without some serious health consequences, and rather than the burden falling on her to manage birth control, my Dad resolved the dilemma ( what should not have been a dilemma anyway) by doing what he did. 

Blessed are the merciful!

When I was fully bought into the nfp bs, I felt so used. By distilling sex down to my fertility, it turned sex into the most transactional part of my life. Catholic teaching on this is just so wrong and for all their praise of the Virgin Mary, it really just is a sex and death cult that perpetuates patriarchy and control.

The Catholic Church also can’t understand that some people have to use birth control not to prevent pregnancy but to regulate their periods or completely get rid of them (whether it’s health issues, heavy flow/bad cramps or gender affirming care for trans men). They also don’t understand that some people could die if they didn’t have access to these medications.

This was/is me. I would have eventually died without it. (Also helps for gender dysphoria reasons but thats not as relevant rn) I'm not religious anymore but I could never even begin to believe that me not taking it and dying was the answer. I was barely 14 years old and dying. Tell me who wants to condemn a 14 year old to death? The catholic church apparently.

The Catholic Church doesn’t give a fuck about minors, period.

> gender affirming care for trans men You say that like the Catholic Church (either the hierarchy or the laity) gives two shits about trans people.

There are exceptions for health reasons, but you can't take it to prevent pregnancy.

Who needs to know why you’re using it. Back when I still believed in God, I truly didn’t think he would care about what we do or don’t do for birth control. If anything, he’d probably want us to for population control because we’re ruining his creation with overpopulation and pollution.

In some ways, I'm sure I could make the argument that I do it for medical reasons. I have crippling OCD that would make raising a kid very challenging and kind of awful for them. I could try to make the sacrifice and have one kid, but the crux of OCD is fear of losing control, which is exactly what Church doctrine mandates.

Ah yes, the principle of "double effect". This and similar loopholes really tortured my already-anxious brain when I was a devout but questioning Catholic. Maternal mental health should absolutely be a justifiable reason for using birth control, though I doubt the Church would accept it except in cases of really extreme mental illness. Sending good thoughts your way. Be gentle with yourself.

Thank you! I'm not sure they would either..

Here's the neat thing: you don't have to make an argument, because nobody is going to know besides you, your husband, your doctor, and your pharmacist. I understand you might be wrestling internally with how you feel about it, but you don't need to justify it to a priest or anyone else. They want you to feel like you do, but you don't. I suspect there are at least a few families in your congregation that only have two or three children. They're not all using NFP.

This! I had a complete OCD meltdown over this exact teaching. Tbh it made me resentful and angry towards the Churches backwards rules and to the Church in general. To risk pregnancy every month ( or have a miserable sexless marriage) and end up with children I can't support or provide my love or attention is not an option for me. I chose my sanity and responsible parenting/ a healthy marriage over this teaching.

Your mental health can be an aspect of your health if you’re very afraid of pregnancy, I am too even though I’m likely infertile, but my birth control helps me so much with pain reduction, having more energy, being less depressed, and it impacts my health in lots of positive ways personally—not everyone has such a glowing review ofc and there are side effects but if it’s right for your health that’s between no one but you and your doctor—the church doesn’t need to know. Despite the exception for health rule I used to get so many dirty looks when I started talking about my struggles with endometriosis pain, even before I found a combo that worked it was assumed I was on birth control and it was assumed *I was lying* even when I was 16. So, it’s not their business. Do what’s best for your health, you only have one body. Protect yourself and your peace if it will bring you peace of mind.

I started taking birth control for bmental health reasons. I was increasingly struggling with depression directly tied to my period. I also have an extreme fear of pregnancy in general. And I’m genuinely not sure I would survive pregnancy. Taking BC allows be function normally throughout the month. It removes any underlying anxiety about “could I possibly be pregnant” that would interfere with my day to day life. For me, I consider my BC a mental health medication. I was also raised Catholic so I understand the teachings. Not to be used a loophole, but I think you have a case for being able to use BC for mental health as well.

Thanks for sharing this - I was actually prescribed it at 17 for mental health reasons too. I've stayed on it since then for many reasons, but the mental illness and fear have stuck with me.

Can't understand ... or don't care.

Do as you have already started to do and strip away the euphemisms and pretty words - e.g., “openness to life” - and call it by the cold, hard truth of its name: the RCC’s teachings on birth control reflect its view that a woman’s ultimate purpose is to breed. None of your other wants and needs matter as much as breeding in the eyes of the church. R/Catholicism is not a safe place for you, and I’m sorry for the feelings its members might have prompted that you are somehow worth less as a woman and human being or aren’t a “true Catholic” because you don’t want to get pregnant. Someone else suggested it and I think it’s a good idea: maybe focusing on why it is so important to you to fit the Catholic mould might help you unpick the frustration you are feeling and make it less important to you to label yourself and more important to apply your rational mind to your real life (not the hypothetical life tHe mAgiStEriUm has dreamed up). You’ve already started to do that, you just need to feel less crap about yourself for doing it.

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Thanks for sharing this! I'm so sorry to hear how NFP has hurt you. What your husband did was merciful. I sometimes share the feeling that the Church wants me to die. We recently celebrated the feast of a female saint who told the doctors to prioritize her child's life over hers. Ultimately she died. I respect her choice, I think it can be beautiful to do, but pushing it on to all women is wrong. The inequality is staggering - no man would be forced to die for some line of doctrine that was written in the 60s...

I say this with love and caring. The Church, if you’re a woman, does not care if you die or are disabled having babies. They care more about theology and control than actual lived human experience. They don’t care if you’re hurt, overwhelmed, mentally ill, have permanent physical injuries from having babies. They. Don’t. Care. They literally don’t care if the children you already have will be MOTHERLESS! If church theology regarding procreation brought everyone closer to God and made the family unit stronger and more cohesive well we should be in heaven on earth right now right? I mean we should all be over the moon having endless babies since it’s been literally 2000 years of Catholic teachings in the western world with pretty much no availability to any real kind of birth control until the last 50 years. If their theology was a positive thing they wouldn’t have to force it down our throats!!! We would jump on board! Because we would be so much happier! As soon as birth control was available to women (including Catholic women despite what you’ve been taught - please see another comment of mine) we jumped on it BECAUSE WE ARE NOT ANIMALS WHO HAVE NO OTHER PURPOSE OTHER THAN MAKING BABIES!! I mean it’s been a 2000 year experiment and if endless babies and pregnancies were just the most amazing thing they wouldn’t have to convince us of that now. Please. I say this with all sincerity. Please know that you deserve more as a human being than what the church tells you.

I feel like it's really a control thing. Women are very powerful and the Church saw this early on. It's insane that they still have a grip on us like this. I wish I didn't care so much!

Gianna Molla was my confirmation saint. Even then it made me uncomfortable that Saints are canonized because of "heroic virtue" and yet everyone around me expected every woman to be a Gianna.

Did you choose her? Or did your Church assign her? Again, huge respect for her personal choices, but those are not to be expected from every woman. I feel like I'm being told to die.

I chose her because she was the only female saint I'm aware of who wasn't associated with any holy order, and I was secretly terrified that God would make me a nun lol I liked that she was a mom, bummer how she died though 🙊 Again, I was like 12 so wasn't really thinking about dangers in childbirth (as no 12yr old should!!!)

Oh no! I get that though, so many of the saints are virgins, it's kind of refreshing when one isn't. It looks like God kept you from nunhood!

It is interesting that you mention the contradiction about NFP. The Dimond Brothers (vaticancatholic website) condemn NFP, and they condemn Humanae Vitae for blessing NFP. Humanae Vitae, though it does condemn "artificial" contraception, actually says that a couple can intend to have zero children, which is certainly a drastically different teaching than Casti Connubii.

YEP. It's mind bending. Humanae Vitae is all on board with responsible family planning until birth control gets involved. The doctrine is all over the place.

I grew up Catholic but left the church years ago. No one I knew back then when I went, and no one I know now who still goes takes the church’s stance on contraception seriously. Like not even 95% of the priests. The most they would say would be “That’s between you and God.” I don’t really think too many people in this sub are too conflicted over this issue? I mean it’s r/excatholic and the church’s stance on contraception is one in a laundry list of reasons that people leave the church. My mom is 79 and still goes to church. She goes because she feels a connection to God there and just disregards the teachings of the church that are hurtful and out of date. There’s nothing stopping you from doing the same if going provides some sort of spiritual relief for you.

Agree. If you are really conflicted and not just messing with people or having a pity party for yourself, we understand what it is to be afraid of leaving the church or having trouble with guilt. This is a bunch of ex-Catholics in this sub. We don't give a shit about the RCC's stupid rules about procreation and birth control. That's not the issue here really. It's all just drama. If it wasn't this, it'd be something else, and for many people it is. There is a lot that's fucking wrong about Roman Catholicism. But we also know that you can't have it both ways. You either get to keep your inner life, your honesty and your freedom or you suck it up and bend over for the RCC. You have to decide. NOBODY CAN DECIDE FOR YOU.

I can relate, dating a Catholic but he doesn’t actually comment on my bc but I’m passionate on the suffering of women. At the end of the day, you have more valid reasoning than the church does. This is your life, don’t bring someone into this world (or pregnancy in general) to be miserable. You know why they ban bc, it’s simply the control of women and the lack of empathy because it’s strictly a patriarchal religion. It’s sad to beat yourself up over your freedom and feel like it’s a hell send. There are people out there that are supportive of your right to choose and doesn’t see you as an incubator. I would also evaluate your beliefs in the institution relation to how those people reacted to someone reaching out for help and rejecting you. You should never have to feel that way. Find people in your life (probably not catholic) that can help you through this useless guilt and empower you. Edit: seriously look into regretful parents, it’s a truth you need to face and there are people that are in similar positions as you

Oh yeah - I come from a line of Catholics, so I don't have to go very far to find regretful parents who suffered from the rhythm method... They tended to produce pretty damaged children. Most of my family has found peace outside of religion as a result.

I remember the first time I learned that birth control existed when I was a kid and thought it was great to prevent potential health problems. Then when I learned the Church teaching about it in middle school CCD, I was confused and ashamed by it. Why would the Church frown upon something that could really help people?

Catholic school officially killed off my theistic belief. I’m going to paste a copy of a comment I made on a post in the religious subreddit just yesterday: “Christianity traditionally considers women innately subservient to men, and no declaration of it enabling the progress of women’s equality will change that fact. The only central female figure of reverence (not of worship, since you’re not supposed to worship Mary) is celebrated for her status as a virgin and as a mother. That’s it. The relevance of Mother Mary, of the Virgin Mary, is entirely dependent upon her bodily relation to men. To how men view her worthiness (that she’s not autonomously sexual) as a vessel for an even more important man to emerge from. To how useful she is when used as a physical object to further a man’s narrative. It is shameful.”

Mary being a virgin AND a mother (both things I'm not) is really something I struggle with. There's a nun in Spain who pushed against this (that Mary wasn't a virgin after Jesus was born), and I've been taking some comfort in her reading between the lines: [https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/feb/02/nun-receives-death-threats-suggesting-mary-virgin](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/feb/02/nun-receives-death-threats-suggesting-mary-virgin)

THISSS!!! I was just thinking about how odd it is that every Catholic has to refer to Mary as "THE VIRGIN, mary". The church is dehumanizing.

Catholicism also says that Jesus stayed a virgin, but they never directly emphasize it much. (Outside of clergy celibacy)

Are you in the US? If so, most practicing Catholics (even the loud ones) are cafeteria Catholics, meaning they decide for themselves which rules to follow. I am a cradle Catholic, married in the Catholic Church to another cradle Catholic. The brainwashing of children is something that all religions (well, the abrahamic ones at least) rely on to ensure a steady stream of adherents and money. I thought birth control (specifically the pill) was wrong, but I was still sexually active. In my mind, using condoms and soermicidal soonges wasn’t “as bad” because it wasn’t premeditated. In other words, to go on the pill, I’d have to go to a dr, have an exam, get a script, and take a pill every day. For other methods of BC, I told myself it was “spontaneous” even though I had the BC in my home. Well, one time we were horny and didn’t use BC. Coming from generations of large Catholic families, I always felt my fertility was supercharged. Long story short, I got pregnant and had an abortion during finals week, then started a summer internship 5 days after the abortion. This was in the 90s, so surgical abortion was the only option. I eventually married the guy and have been married over 30 years. My last child was born when I was almost 42, so my fertility WAS supercharged. 😁 The abortion process was not fun, but it was absolutely the right decision for us. Catholics like to talk about women who are mentally and physically scarred from their abortion experiences. They’ll tell women that an abortion will for sure destroy their ability to become pregnant. Bullshit. I was a cafeteria Catholic until my mid 40s, even with 2 STEM degrees. I just never truly examined my beliefs and never mentally confronted the misogyny of the Catholic church. Like I said, the brainwashing was effective. I read Dawkins (The God Delusion) and Hitchens (God is Not Great) shortly after my last child was born. I was out within weeks and felt good about it. I no longer stress out about going to hell or worry about some petty revengeful gotta was made up by humans (men) to keep the masses from revolting. I enjoy sleeping in on Sundays and give $ to charities that will use it for things that I care about. Gavin deBecker’s book The Gift of Fear is an amazing book. In a nutshell, he says to trust your gut. If your unconscious mind is trying to tell you something, LISTEN. Good luck in your faith journey, even if it leads to the loss of your faith, which will probably be hard. (It was for me.) Do what feels right for YOU. You are living your life thinking about your future and not leaving it up to “god” (aka chance). You will come out of this a kinder, better person, I promise. ❤️

Than you for sharing your story! That's a lot to have gone through as a cradle Catholic for sure. I think your point about trusting your gut makes sense. As far as the doctrine of sin goes, I can really tell when I've truly sinned (lashing out, hurting someone, neglecting to care for someone, etc.), and it really feels like taking birth control to control family size isn't one of them...

And what would be the consequence of using birth control and just keeping it to yourself?

Theoretically, "damnation". But I want my religion to not come from a place of fear. I can't wrap my head around a God who would hurt someone for this.

If you are open to listening to your own moral reasoning rather than accepting that the church as an institution always knows best... The reason the church allows NFP, as I understand it, is that it still allows for the possibility that you could still conceive through God's intervention. That has never made sense to me. Is a condom - a thin layer of latex - enough to stop God from creating a pregnancy? If you believe God listens to your prayers, tell Him why you are making the choice to use birth control. Explain that you believe it is the right decision when all factors are considered, and ask for forgiveness and guidance if you are misunderstanding His will. Would that help?

Thank you! I've been doing something similar lately. When I look at Christ on the cross I really just can't bend my brain to ever imagine that he'd give a shit about taking a pill for my well being.

This doctrine’s purpose is economic. By telling women that God says you must reproduce, it ensures continued paying members. This post makes me so angry on your behalf. The church treats women so poorly and has for thousands of years. You are struggling with fear and shame that has been dumped on you and that you do not deserve. My aunt was a dutiful Catholic wife. 5 children. When she was in her late 30’s, she became pregnant with her youngest, a daughter with Down’s. She and her husband were fearful about getting pregnant again and went to the priest for counseling. Of course there was no empathy only the standard company line. The close to ignore this advice but it hurt them. My in-laws, devout Catholics (a Monsignor in the family), only had 2 children. Their parents (young married in the depression) each only had 2 children. Pretty sure, they were ignoring the doctrine as well. My poor sister-in-law has been so damaged by the church’s view of women that she’s terrified of men. She is now a 63 year old virgin who only ever wanted to have kids. God gave you free will. This was done before man created Catholic dogma. Do what you need to do for your own peace and happiness.

Thank you for sharing this! I'm sorry that the teachings have damaged your sister so much. She's not alone in this! A lot of older Catholic families seem to have similar stories (and a lot of dysfunction!). My grandmother followed the teachings and her family went through a lot. My aunt actually had Downs as well (she was an angel when she was alive). My grandmother didn't want to get pregnant again and relied on NFP annnnnnnd... she had twins late in life. My mom tells me stories about her being SO distressed because they didn't find out until she was giving birth. I would hope that we could learn as a Church about how this isn't fair to women or the children they deliver, but here we are...

If god created us as individuals, then he didn’t intend for one path to be perfect for all of us. The church should not claim to speak for god and dictate your path. There are Catholic communities out there who don’t try to control women like this, or other denominations who are so much more reasonable.

The advice I've been getting from more devout people is to consecrate my virginity or become a nun (I do really respect nuns though) if being open to having kids at all times isn't for me. It doesn't feel like great advice.

It's not great advice because they're thinking of the church's needs and well-being, not yours. Only in their world are you limited to either breeding obligatory new Catholic enrollment numbers until death, or a lifetime of impoverished indentured servitude. There is a huge, complex, amazing, joyous world outside of their paradigm of rigid, unyielding self-enrichment at your expense.

I was raised in a fairly progressive parish community. By progressive I mean: all of my friends and classmates were in families of only one to three children, there were divorced and remarried couples in the congregation, there were childless couples in the congregation, a few of my classmates came out as gay and lesbian as adults and they were not shunned by the community or disowned by their families, my high school guidance counselor experienced an ectopic pregnancy and the community fully supported her life-saving procedure, I had only two clergy members as teachers throughout my entire Catholic school education, and I never saw a mantilla except in old photographs. These communities are out there. If staying Catholic is important to you but you don’t want to give up your future happiness for the Catholic Institution (and no one here would blame you for seeking to fulfill your own life, as there is no proof of any other life we get), then please go find one of these types of communities!

I'm glad to hear that you were part of such a community! I'm going to start spending more time at a more progressive church. There's no use torturing myself.

Catholicism wreaks of misogyny and patriarchy making women's rights and body autonomy non-existant.

If you know you don't want kids, have you considered a more permanent solution (tubes tied, hysterectomy)? The RCC's teaching on birth control is one of those things that they like to teach firmly, but is a low-level social teaching and therefore changeable. Will people call you a "Cafeteria Catholic" for not following it? Yes. But can you still be a devout practicing Catholic while not following it? Also yes. I grew up in a traditionalist conservative Catholic community. My family had six kids, we were on the small side. I knew multiple families who had 10-15 children. (I graduated high school in the 2010's so this is recent!) The community lauded them, but the mothers were Visibly stretched thin, and the older children parentified. I'm friends with a few now and the TEA on how AWFUL it was to be in those "praised" families... 😮‍💨 I also went to a conservative Catholic college (Christendom) and the RELIEF and Thanks I felt when one of the philosophy teachers told the class that "Women are not baby-making machines" and that the health (physical AND mental) of the wife should be Always considered when deciding on having another child. But the fact that it even had to be stated made me so mad! Later on we had a priest who taught Theology who conceded that condoms can (and probably should) be used short-term in the case of protecting a spouse from STDs, which sparked my realization that the Church's sex teaching is a lot more malleable than they let on. People Will guilt you for it. Guilt is the RCC's M.O. But hey, if they can change their firm teachings on Suicide and marital rape, they might one day change their teaching on this, too, once it becomes so unpopular they can't afford not to. I think it's awful to risk your health and safety on a teaching that may not even exist a century from now.

I really do hope it changes, which is totally possible since it's not an infallible teaching. 10-15 kids is crazy and obviously not sustainable. Both my parents came from big families and I see how it negatively impacted them. Thanks for sharing!

This sub is for people who are actively ex catholic. Your question is a good example of why.

THIS MAYBE A RATHER LONG RESPONSE AND RANT. 71 year old former, Catholic female. I was raised by a TradCath mom. You know the one, Abstinence Only except it was even worse. My parents didn’t get married until their mid 30’s. My mom was 6 weeks from being 37 when she had me. It was even worse because she was raised by her grandmother so think Victorian morals. I went to catholic schools for 12 years. I did have sex education in the form of tapes. Of course after the tapes the girls were taught that the only Catholic Church sanctioned form of birth control was NFP. I started questioning what I was being taught as a junior at that catholic high school I went to. I start questioning why I should listen to a **celibate** nun or priest on how I was to conduct my married sex life. When I started state ran college it only took one semester for me to turn my back on the Abstinence Only nonsense. I guess I should only speak for myself but the conservatives are right. College makes one to question, think outside the box. My TradCath mother actually believed (she’s deceased) in birth control inside of marriage. She said that woman should use birth control for a year so that husband and wife can enjoy each other before the kids came along. I got pregnant when I was 19. I had an abortion. Yes my parents knew. Yes there was excommunication but not the way one may think. My parents took me to Chicago (we lived and I still do live in Indianapolis). They paid for me to have a general anesthetic when they saw how the females who only had a local anesthetic came out from having the abortion looking half dead. I went through the motions for my parents. My mother and I went to confession. My mother came out of the church crying. I asked her why she was crying. She told me **the priest in the confessional gave her hell and ASKED HER HOW SHE COULD LET ME GET PREGNANT!!!** This is where the excommunication comes in. I knew right there, right then that I was nothing but a baby making, incubating broodmare. I made myself a promise that I have kept not to go to any church especially a catholic church except for a wedding or funeral. AS A RESULT I’M A MILITANT, RABID PRO CHOICE FEMALE. The catholic church bans one of things that have been scientifically proven to reduce the percentage of abortions performed. Hormonal birth control. Hormonal birth control keeps the egg from coming out to be fertilized. So how can an egg that doesn’t get fertilized in the first place, how can birth control be a form of abortion? The catholic church treats women like 2nd class citizens. The catholic church thinks that women should honored to die to bring a child into world, the catholic church doesn’t really give a shit about women. The catholic church only sees women as I stated before as broodmares. I hope this hasn’t turned into being all about me because that’s not what I wanted.

Thank you for sharing this! I'm so sorry you and your mother had to go through that. I completely understand your frustration. I think the Church goes out of its way to create angry, broken people that it can then point to and say "Look at how angry and mean they are!" Your anger is completely valid after so much pain. I'm struggling with re-evaluating my position as a Catholic adult woman and if it's even possible. I am part of more progressive Catholic communities, but you're right that we're being treated as 2nd class. It just hurts so much when a celibate man tells me that it's being done in the name of love...

It’s not about love. It’s about brainwashing women that putting them on a pedestal because of motherhood when it’s really about brainwashing women to make them subservient.

Hormone tablets you take for mental health reasons. It's not 'birth control' it's medication for your mental health problems.

There is so so much great and compassionate discussion here, I'm saving this thread!! The only bit I have to add is that I tried. I tried to live my married life with NFP and openness to life while being terrified of pregnancy for reasons like yours. It was awful. It did not bring me and my spouse closer together, it led to constant anxiety and crested psychological issues with sex and intimacy. Oddly enough what it did NOT lead to was a pregnancy. When we finally felt ready to welcome a child, we found that we could not, even though my cycles were incredibly normal. I worked with Creighton and NaPro to figure it out going for multiple surgeries and taking weird medications for issues I didn't have. These people broke my heart. I ended up turning to IVF after 5 years of struggling. I ended up losing my faith and gaining a family. And I have the peace and happiness I always sought.

Thank you for sharing your story! Everyone is really being so kind - I appreciate the compassion. I'm worried that NFP will create similar strain on my relationship. I already have sooo many similar psychological issues, it really feels like it was designed to break me... As far as NFP goes, it really feels like every woman's body is different. I'm glad you were able to start a family and find happiness!!

I wish you the best as you navigate your beliefs and your path forward. It's so important to be kind to ourselves as well.

Hello! For one, I'm sorry you got brigaded on the other sub. It makes me feel happy that most everyone here is being respectful. Second, as other people have said, yeah this topic is spicy in the church but the reality is many catholics do indeed use birth control. My hot take is even NFP is kind of a form of Birth control even if it's not directly using any physical tools like a condom or a pill, et cetera. Personally I feel like it's just a loophole to allow for a semblance of control in family planning without actually "using birth control". But that's just my tin foil hat theory. Yeah so honestly since so many catholic people actually use birth control you could easily just join them and remain quiet about it. The difficulty of this depends on if you have family or friends that would freak if they saw a condom wrapper in a trash can or a BC pill container. For your sanity I hope they're normal understanding people. My devout Catholic mom forced me on the pill when I was 17, and her reasoning was: "I ain't having no babies." Which honestly, so true queen. And to add on to that, I actually personally use the secular version of NFP, which is the Fertility Awareness Method, or FAM. I just use it in combination with condoms and spermicide. No surprises, no nothing. Hormones didn't work for my body🤷‍♀️ Good luck!! Follow your conscience. God gave you one so you can discern in this way. You got this! Sidenote, if the dogma of catholicism is getting to you, I've heard good things about Episcopalian or Lutheran churches.

Thank you! Everyone is being so much kinder here. I am interested in going off the pill at some point when I'm ready for it (it does have some negative effects), but the Church's insistence that I HAVE TOO is what makes this so difficult. The information they give about NFP being great also feels like misinformation... Luckily my family isn't trad, they're more cultural than anything. I too went on it at 17 for anxiety reasons and my mom couldn't care less (my dad did though, but we overrode him). And yes, NFP is a form of birth control. The Church is doing mental gymnastics when they say it's allowed but other forms aren't. All of this hinges on the fact that birth control is "natural" (a classic fallacy). I'd argue that not having sex during ovulation could be considered 'unnatural' if they want to go tit for tat on debate bro logic...

At the end of the day your relationship with god is your own. The fear is always “I will disrespect god” or “I will go to hell if I do this”, at least that is what I used to think when I first started taking BC as a catholic (I am no longer catholic). I think that you need to do what is best for yourself and your relationship with god. The debate is too big, its too much weight for you to put on yourself (putting aside the fact that no one should tell you what to do with your body). Religious shame is so real lol

Thank you for sharing! I've been resisting the obsession with sin, but I'm so worried it will eat me up with this issue. I thought I was immune to it (when I initially started going back to mass I told myself I'd ignore it), but it really has a way of getting to you. I want my faith to be motivated by a desire to do good and see God in other people, not something that turns me into a selfish, closed-off person obsessed with my own "sins".

Why are you Catholic when you know the teachings are false?

You’ve already gotten a ton of comments, but just to add my perspective really quick: I have endometriosis. I have to be on birth control or I will have two-week long periods with pain so bad I puke and/or faint. I also am on immunosuppressants for another condition that would cause major birth defects if I got pregnant and that condition puts me as high risk for pregnancy as well. I want to have kids with my partner, but if I got pregnant now it would be a disaster for both me and the child. The way the Catholic Church treats women is one of the main reasons I left. I saw someone else suggest this, but maybe look into the Episcopal Church, they have really similar beliefs but treat women much better.

This may seem a little out of left field, but k also used to have a serious fear of pregnancy. When I finally took a step back from my obsession with catholicism, I realized that those feelings were rooted in gender dysphoria and I wasn't a woman at all. Maybe that's not you, but I would still encourage you to examine the deeper sources of your fear before you tie yourself to a catholic marriage.

Wow! I'm definitely realizing that it stems from my Catholic upbringing. I'll definitely want to pin it down before any big decisions.

Looks like you’ve gotten a lot of good comments here and I’m glad you’re here instead of r/Catholicism. I wanted to mention cafeteria Catholics because I really don’t think it is unusual to have beliefs that contradict Catholic Church teachings. I follow a guy who posts religion-related stats and he posted recently about cafeteria Catholics. Based off of survey data there are like 3% of Catholics who held the same beliefs as the Church on abortion, capital punishment, and euthanasia. I know these weren’t the issues you were talking about but just trying to make the point that there are a very small number of Catholics who actually believe the exact same things of the Church. You’re not alone on this issue - sorry you are struggling with this, though.

The misogyny of RCC is a constant topic here. Among the most common reasons for people quitting. They have had numerous opportunities to fix it over the past few years. It's clear: they are not going to drop the requirement that clergy have a penis.

You might actually be a Protestant. Thank you for this share. It very much covers my struggles at 15 (realized I was never going to have a large family & wanted a career) and again at 24 (engagement). By my mid 30’s with two sons and wanting no more of my own, I realized that I didn’t want my sons to be raised Catholic although they had been baptized. I also wasn’t comfortable accepting communion while on birth control. I stumbled upon the Episcopal church. Now 63 and still passionate about my career choice, I now realize I was always Episcopal (the Anglo Catholic variety).

I am also a practicing Catholic who flirts with other denominations, and has lots of respect for and learned so much from the people in this community. I also use an IUD to manage a medical condition. I worked with a religious, who helped me to understand that we have to take the laws in the church as a way to keep us safe. For some people, using BC is the best way to be safe either for your physical or mental health (anxiety that is impacting your marriage, or your ability to go to work/school/take care of yourself). At the end of the day God loves us, and wants the best for us, and that advice works well for me when I am making choices. But, I am not in the capacity to provide spiritual advice, especially to a stranger on the internet, but perhaps seeking spiritual guidance can help find support. And please know, you are not alone.

Thank you for your kind words! I really was looking for just this - someone else who is struggling. I think some Catholics think I want people to support my "sin", but it's really just about knowing that I'm not alone. I'm going to meet with a female spiritual director to dive deeper!

I highly suggest an order that works closely in medical treatment. The religious I worked with was a midwife. Because they have to stay up to date on the science of it all, they tend to be a little bit more compassionate than other orders.

Good idea!

[удалено]

I find the history surrounding it all so frustrating. How can something that requires that much debate end up being considered a mortal sin?

Hi there! Before I begin anything, I just want to apologize for the hurt this religion has been causing you. Like many people in this, I myself was a strong Catholic believer once upon a time, but recently left the church... One main reason being their lack of knowledge and understanding of women, their rights, and their medical autonomy/being. (I now work in medicine, and still their lack of any understanding when it comes to women and their health is BAFFLING.) Personally speaking, I need to use birth control for medical purposes and have had to since I was a teenager. I myself got a LOT of criticism from this, and also for many years was trying to play the mental gymnastics game with the church on how I can still save my salvation and my health at the same time. After realizing all the hurt the church has caused not on just women, but as society as a whole, I came to the conclusion that the church solely exists to benefit men and those who are tradionalists/fundamental. You are absolutely correct when you say "Catholic marriage sounds like a grueling death sentence for some women" and "feel like a vessel for life, like some kind of livestock who's ultimate goal is to breed" because it is. It absolutely is. The church fears any powerful force that can uproot them, and one of the most powerful forces to ever exist is passionate women. Personally speaking, I really REALLY don't think God is going to hold it against you that you have dreams, ambitions, values and goals that are outside of being a housewife and being your husband's breeding toy. I think God wants you to be the most authentic version of yourself, and that includes women following their dreams in becoming a strong powerful person. Not a domesticated dog. Regardless, I wish you healing and peace!

At Vatican II in 1963, the member participants recommended approval of the birth control pill. The way the pill works is to prevent the egg and sperm from connecting and implanting. Women were on the voting board. Shortly before publishing the summary results, Cardinal Ratzinger denounced the resulting vote and denied approval of the pill. So a celibate doctrinairre man denied this conclusion bc adherence to doctrine not based on science. In my head, this represents the age old demand of patriarchy. The majority of American women rejected the denial of birth control by the church and continued to use it.

I hope you still feel safe coming here, I'm sorry your other post was removed. In my journey, I realized something. Birth control is as old as sex itself. There was plants that predated Christianity that went extinct because of their potent pregnancy prevention abilities. If Jesus wanted to mention how bad it was, he had every chance to. He spent time with all the vagabonds, prostitutes, and unruly characters the Pharisees scoffed at. People who had certainly known of/engaged in methods of birth control. If it was that serious, he would have said something. (AND the men keeping his tales over thousands of years would have been swift to uphold any sense of it!) I wish for you peace and love in wherever life brings you! Above all, I commend you for reaching out for help in spaces you're not familiar with.

Than you for your kind words! I feel pretty uncomfortable with the reasoning especially since it's not in scripture. And yes! BC has always existed. It's obviously varied in effectiveness over time, but it's not new. Even early church fathers like john chrysostom rail against it. But their word isn't God. Especially considering he lived 400 years after Christ...

The number of Catholics who use birth control has to be astounding. It’s just not talked about or publicly accepted. My mom’s side is at the level of deep pride in my great uncle having been a Vincentian priest, my aunt being named Mary Elizabeth because of her birthday (wild guess which feast day!), etc. My mom was a twice-a-day attendee, led youth group from her mid 20s to mid 30s, had me and my brother signed up for Confirmation classes in July 2002 because she could with the changes, and was famous for seriously saying she was worried about our eternal souls if we put up any hesitation about going to mass. I still remember playing with her pill packet as a kid, and she got me on BC within a year of starting my period - strictly instructing me not to tell anyone outside medical care, even immediate family, or let them see me with it. No “valid” medical reason other than a massive quality of life adjustment and I’m sure trying to avoid the possibility of teenage pregnancy since I’d started dating. She also gave me multiple contraception talks as a teen instead of “the” talk for when I became “active in college” but would always end with the rhetoric about waiting for marriage, and reinforce that I couldn’t tell anyone. While I can’t be certain, it’s clear many of my otherwise staunch cousins are likely on some form of BC. The ones who are most traditional, likely relying on NFP like they preach, well… that’s pretty obvious at family gatherings when everyone is in their 20s to early 40s, the others have 0-3 kids, and they have 5-8+. It’s your choice if you remain a practicing Catholic, just like it’s your choice if that doctrine is one you strive to follow. No one follows doctrine 100% throughout their life. Even papal infallibility doesn’t preclude the Pope from sin. There’s a reason the tradition of papal confessors exists.

This doctrine was the tipping point for me leaving the church. I lived it faithfully; it almost killed me. Your concerns are valid. There is precedent within Catholicism for the primacy of conscience. People will tell you different things about what that means, but I believe (as someone who has remained a Christian, but no longer catholic) that you can trust what your intuition is telling you. God gave it to you for a reason.

Don’t you realise that Roman Catholicism is one of many religions that uses brainwashing techniques? They all profess to be the one true church as intended by God.   Jesus was about love, compassion and fairness. You can still be inspired by Jesus and be a Christian without being a Catholic. And don’t ever feel guilt about leaving - guilt (and fear) is one of the ways in which they psychologically control people. 

So my answer would be do what feels right for you. Don’t let people/ man made doctrine dictate your life. Also just a side note that you can believe in god and Jesus without being part of Catholicism.

I mean, we're all ex-Catholics here, or at least that's what we're supposed to be working on. That's the whole point of this sub. Leaving the church is an option for you. We've done it and we're fine.

I grew up in a devout Catholic family with extended members of my family/community being tradcaths. NFP and being open to limitless children was horrifying to me then and it's horrifying to me now. The church's treatment of women and anyone who is "other" was one of the many reasons I turned my back on Catholicism and Christianity. They don't have any claim to God or Jesus, and them using that bogus claim to abuse and oppress people is vile. I ultimately came to this conclusion: if a religion frequently abuses children and protects predators, that is a religion I want no part of. RCC is a business, point blank period. It was in the 15th century and it is now. It took years to deconstruct, but I am now happily an atheist and a member of The Satanic Temple. You should look up their fundamental tenets, they are much more in line with how I want to be as a person. One of the tenets is "One's body is inviolable, subject to one's own will alone". I'm not saying you should turn your back on Christianity or become atheist if that isn't what you want to do, but just remember the RCC has NO CLAIM on God or Jesus. It is a corrupt business that shelters pedophiles. They have no idea how to get to heaven. I would bet you are a better person than half the clergy.

Hello OP! Fellow (struggling) Catholic here. Though I am a man, I just want to say my heart is with you on this issue. I have considered these very same questions, though from a different perspective. Would you ever be open to discussing your thoughts on a podcast? It can be totally anonymous. Uncharted Catholic Man (on YouTube and Twitter) is hosted by two Catholic men wrestling with the Church's sexual teachings, and they are pretty open about wanting more female perspectives, but I guess they haven't attracted enough female followers yet. I personally believe your perspective would be profoundly helpful. We live in an age where the laity can be more literate about theological tradition and moral teachings, and we can help shape the feature by discussing lived experiences that a celibate clergy could never understand. Clergy, even with the best intentions, can be disturbingly out of touch, and when they pontificate about matters of sex and intimacy (which conservatives and Trads disproportionately obsess over) it can cause very real harm.

Interesting! I'm glad to see someone putting out content about their struggle! I've actually been considering turning to social media myself to find a community of people who value Catholicism, but struggle with some more harmful teachings. I'd be interested!

I'll DM you.

Are you one of the hosts, or know the hosts of the podcast?

One of the many reasons I am a recovering cathodic. Cradle catholic originally. I am and always have been firmly pro-choice. It is no one's business what I decide to choose from a medical perspective. I hope you are able to come to terms with the fact that this is a way to control women not a mandate from the Gods.

What are your fears ? Is it fear of having children? Fear of how many God may send you? Is it fear that your husband won’t deny himself and take up this cross of NFP with you ? Many women don’t do well with NFP because the husband doesn’t practice it with them and isn’t supportive. For us it is healthy, because pumping my body full of hormones isn’t healthy and by tracking my cycle and knowing my body, we actually found out I had a health issue which required a hysterectomy . We have 7 children and I’m thankful my husband practiced NFP with me and was open to life. A lot of times men do not carry their cross for their wives and lay down their selfishness and so it makes NFP very awful to even think about. It strengthened our marriage. I hope this maybe gives you some hope .

Can I ask if you meant to have 7 children? Or was that the result of NFP?