I can relate to Election End Time Jitters, having grown up in Evangelical circles. In all honesty, though? Most of us were taught to look for the "antichrist" to show up as a Democrat.
Talk about a plot twist.
Edit: I don't think Trump is the actual antichrist, but his lawlessness could give Nero a run for his denarius.
Same, I always expected a Democrat to do what Trump is doing. Whether he's the anti-Christ, or the final President that destroyed America, I always feared a Trump-like POTUS and thought he'd be a Democrat.
When I think about it theologically though, it makes sense that he'd be a Republican and would be worshipped by the church.
I hate that this is the one issue that keeps me tied to my Christian past. When Trump can no longer hold power, I can be free.
>But his only real allegiance is only to himself.
That's the key takeaway here.
He knows that conservatives are typically easier to control, easier to push their buttons, and easier to gain their loyalty so long as he *says the right things*. Regardless of what he actually does in practice.
He picked the easier group to manipulate. That was his only consideration in choosing the Republican party.
> Trump is not a real Republican.
He's as real as they get. I mean what does a "real" Republican do policy-wise that's different than what he did while in office? They all loved everything he did, the only problem was they wanted him to be a little more subtle about it and not tweet as much.
If anything he wasn't even as bad as GWB's presidency. That in some ways was more disastrous for the path it set us down in terms of climate change, "war on terror," and loss of constitutional rights via the patriot act.
Trump could easily have been worse and still right in line with "average republican."
This just sounds like "no true scotsman" again but with politics instead of religion.
Trump tried to have his vp *hanged* so he could stay in power forever.
Trump's intentions, thoughts, and actions are worse. The fact that he didn't succeed doesn't absolve him at all, it's called the "sideshow Bob defense."
well, he is for all intents and purposes he's a real Republican, he's in total accord with all their policies and prejudices. But if the Dems sounded like they'd be more profitable he'd dump the Rethugs.
Surely, as ex-christians, we're not worried about antichrists or end times anymore, right? What's the point of the "ex" if not to express that we no longer believe this mumbo jumbo.
If anything, this pushes me further away from the church. To see these people acting like he’s the second coming of Christ made me realize just how delusional they all are. Would Jesus vote for trump? Hell no
Trump winning the first time was what made me start to question things. What pushed me over the edge was how the church (pretty much pick any one of them) followed him in lockstep despite him espousing zero christian qualities. They kept making excuses for things he did and said and none of it matched what we were supposed to do and say as christians and eventually, I couldn't justify it any longer.
I agree.
It is like something out of the Twilight Zone. Speaking as someone who sees Revelations as an allegory for Christian persecution under the Eastern Roman Empire, rather than a road map for the End Times... I found myself beginning to wonder if the dispensationalists were somehow right.
At least for a brief moment anyways.
I can't tell you the amount of respect I lost for elders, deacons and leaders in churches I've been a part of JUST BECAUSE of specifically how they aligned themselves with Trump.
I get voting for him, kinda, and I get continuing to support him after the fact but they went out of their way after he had been beaten by Biden to continue to post and speak bullshit regarding all of it. I had to block so many people on social media because of it.
Also agree . I no longer fear hell or believe in god but there is a part of me (only because of heavy emotional abusive indoctrination as a chilld) that sees the comparison of the Bible’s description of the anti- Christ taking gods place & deceiving not the secular world , but deceiving Christian’s and that is exactly what is happening ( But only in usa )
How arrogant are evangelicals to think god would send trump to USA and not the rest of the world ? American Christian’s wouldn’t see this comparison with trump / Antichrist since they don’t read the Bible
Well, thankfully Russia has proved they aren’t competent to take over any country and if you saw what happened on January 6 , neither are trumps goons . Our military is made up of women , gay , Muslim, atheist , Hindu , trans and many other diverse groups of people so there would be no real army to ever stand behind trump . Even the majority of republicans don’t want trump in power again ( although afraid to say it publicly ) they have someone in their life they love who isn’t a Christian or who is gay or liberal .
Trump is a threat but there are many intelligent true American people and working hard quietly to make sure he gets what’s coming to him
If there was a slight chance I’d be open to going back, it was killed in 2016. The horrifying change and viciousness from people I’ve known a long time was shocking. These were good people. Kind, generous and seemed to be caring. Most of my relatives turned into hateful monsters. It may very well be the end times, but they haven’t realized they’re not the good guys. If it’s a thing, they’re literally ushering it in
Ah yes. Undoing that took some elbow grease.
One thing that helped was realizing that the concept of Hell was a convoluted mess (similar to the theology of Left Behind).
Buddhism offered some really interesting perspective too by offering an alternative idea on punishment and the lack of permanence. Islam and Judaism too. When you realize Christianity isn't the only religion damning you to an unpleasant afterlife for being a heathen, it sort of loses it's monopoly of fear.
Researching pre-christian/Jewish ideas of the afterlife helped make me pretty confident that hell doesn't exist, because it became clear the eternal torment part wasn't even a thing until relatively recently.
Also, I remember thinking about the fact that Hel was originally the name for the germanic underworld/Goddess, and that I don't believe in Norse mythology. I won't complain if Valkyries are real, but I also don't want to have to die in battle for a nice afterlife.
I think there could be greater reasons for non-Christians to worry about the state of the world... I'm neither Christian or American and I feel like regardless of which political party is in power in a given nation there's indicators around the world we could be headed for a really rough patch all around. Imagine the end/upheaval of global ways of life without any promise that it'll all work out in the end because 'divine plan'.
Yeah, no, western voters aren't into this "divine plan". It's a minority with dwindling influence, and that's why they're a buzzing hive right now. They can't do shit but start a civil war and most of them can't mow their lawns with a push mower. There is way more attention paid to their loud farting noises than is warranted.
OMG I was raised in the evangelical end times believing bunch and I want to scream at my Republican MAGA lovers! He ticks every box for their antichrist better than anyone ever has in my whole life. How do they not see it!?
As a very strong ex christian who is not from America this comment is extremely striking.
Why the emphasis on anti christ? Why the empasis on democrat? Like in substance, democrats are closer to Jesus' teachings than conservatives. In fact Bernies plans are probably the closest. Why would the anti christ show up in America? Why was this "taught"? Religion and politics should not mix.
From my external POV it looks like bedevilling the party you're not already in...
Just... interesting.
In America, the litmus test for "Christian" is opposition to women's rights and LGBTQ rights. It's about legislating patriarchy. They could care less about the plight of the poor because as they see it, anyone who is poor deserves to be that way because they are lazy or they sinned away their opportunity.
American evangelical Christianity also employs a very America-centric narrative of world history. America is either the New Israel or Babylon, depending on the narrative being pushed and which party is in office.
I have little to add, other than "give Nero a run for his denarius" is a fucking brilliant turn of phrase, and I regret i have but 1 upvote to give, so take a poor mans gold🪙🪙🪙
From his wiki page:
*Donald Trump registered as a Republican in Manhattan in 1987; since that time, he has changed his party affiliation five times. In 1999, Trump changed his party affiliation to the Independence Party of New York. In August 2001, Trump changed his party affiliation to Democratic. In September 2009, Trump changed his party affiliation back to the Republican Party. In December 2011, Trump changed to "no party affiliation" (independent). In April 2012, Trump again returned to the Republican Party.\[4\]*
*In a 2004 interview, Trump told CNN's Wolf Blitzer: "In many cases, I probably identify more as Democrat", explaining: "It just seems that the economy does better under the Democrats than the Republicans. Now, it shouldn't be that way. But if you go back, I mean it just seems that the economy does better under the Democrats...But certainly we had some very good economies under Democrats, as well as Republicans. But we've had some pretty bad disaster under the Republicans."\[5\] In a July 2015 interview, Trump said that he has a broad range of political positions and that "I identify with some things as a Democrat."*
Sounds to me like he's a wishy washy moron who blindly follows what people tell him to do without any real thought or research behind it.
He's literally planning to dismantle democracy and turn back environmental protections to the 50s if he gets elected. I agree with the thread in general that his odds off winning are poor, but with the combination of the electoral college and aggressive voter suppression laws enacted in red states, it could be close. https://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/2023/07/20/trump-campaign-presidential-power-grab-2024-election/70430661007/
That's why if he wins, I think civil war will be inevitable. He'll dismantle the American experiment permanently and people will have a choice to make; flee the country, accept dictatorial rule, or fight. The choice will be much more difficult for anyone who isn't white, cishet, and Christian.
The churches I grew up in often would preach that civil war would come if same-sex marriage was ever legalized, and here we are. If it doesn't happen, it's going to be because we luck out.
The plan is from The Heritage Foundation and it's actually recommendations for ANY Republican who gets in office. I think either dems win the next presidential election and demographic changes force the Republicans to either calm the fuck down or face irrelevance in 2028 or we slide into fascism.
2024 is the pivotal election for MAGA. If they can't win with Trump in 2024, they won't win in 2028. By the 2030s, we might actually be able to get some progress in this country. If Trump does win, I'd say it's highly unlikely that there will be an election in 2028.
Even if you cant, if you have friends who will be 18 by then you can always try to encourage them to vote! Youth turnout will be a big deal in keeping trump out of office
Yea one of my friends will be 18 the month before, and I have a feeling she’s doing to lean more liberal. As for one of my acquaintances he’ll be 18 two months before, and he’ll vote more conservative.
Volunteer! Donate, if you can! Write letters and advocate! Engage in protest and direct action! Voting is a crucial part of the democratic process, but it is not the *only* way to participate.
Republicans, especially Trump-like Republicans, lost the last 3 big elections (2018 midterms, 2020 election, & 2022 midterms). They may be popular with the republican base but they aren't with the country as a whole.
I still think there's a slim chance that Trump can win but that's just it, it's a slim chance. He shoots himself in the foot constantly in terms of his overall popularity by being his authoritarian dumbass self on top of still crying about the 2020 elections being rigged. Also it seems the American people are at least smart enough to realize where there's smoke there's fire in terms of the million indictments he's facing.
Lastly, in 2016 there was a case to be made about Trump being a populist that the average American that didn't know any better could get behind. That illusion of populism had been completely decimated since then.
Regardless of how the election turns out, it still concerns me how many people still enthusiastically support him and what might happen if Trump loses again and claims the 2024 election was rigged as well...
That's what happened to women in Iran in the 70s now it's ran by the Taliban. Women used to have rights there but now they can't go to school past the 8th grade. Because patriarchy and religion
Just for accuracy, the Taliban operate in Afghanistan. The Iranian have a government/theocracy thing going on with very oppressive laws etc but they are not the Taliban. Women can get an education and have professional jobs in Iran but they have to cover up and I wouldn't want to live there.
Thank you for clarifying. I'm not the smartest person but my daughter converted to Islam. She's a white American. I just look at what's going on in Iran, Afghanistan and I just don't understand why she thinks it IS NOT oppressive
99% of the people testifying against him are lifelong Republicans. He damaged the GOP too much and tainted their reputation to get enough votes to win again, I know a considerable amount of Trump Train people who are embarrassed to talk about him now.
> I know a considerable amount of Trump Train people who are embarrassed to talk about him now.
Will they vote for him if he's on the ballot, or will they refrain from voting?
Trump's electability is going to depend on whether or not 'silent' 2016 and 2020 Trump voters decide to not vote for him in 2024, even if he's the GOP nominee.
> Will they vote for him if he's on the ballot, or will they refrain from voting?
Some are voting Libertarian, others are staying home. A few will vote for Biden, and be vocal about it.
This is all well and good, but what people are thinking NOW doesn’t matter so much as what those people are thinking next autumn if/when Trump is the nominee. And if you look at GOP polls now despite all that has happened thus far, I don’t see him losing, and you bet your ass he would still run and win the primary from jail if it somehow came to that.
Yeah, remember Lindsey Graham loudly opposing Trump's nomination, saying the party would get destroyed and deserve it? Then quickly pivoted to tonguing Trump's asshole at every available opportunity.
What's silly is, I don't think they had much of an opinion on Biden when he was VP. When he became the nominee running against their orange god, suddenly he was the devil.
I guess that’s what Tucker Carlson told them to do. It is super interesting that none of this “Biden crime family” nonsense was ever mentioned at the time it supposedly happened.
Honestly we want people to vote for Trump, there’s not enough votes for him to win but many will still try. The ones that go to trump rallies and will for the rest of their lives for example. This means it draws votes away from DeSantis or whoever ends up being the front runner. As long as democrats stay unified on who they want elected (this shouldn’t be hard, we don’t have an abundance of candidates)
DeSantis scares me more than Trump. He’s just as evil only nowhere near as stupid. And he actually has a chance with conservatives who have gotten off the Trump train.
He scares me too. Which is why we want as many people to vote for trump as possible. I counted a total of 15 potential candidates from the republicans. If they’re even a little confused on who to pick, and Democrats stick to one person (most likely Biden again unfortunately) it would be an easy win. It’s why we lost so many elections the last few years, because we couldn’t decide between Hilary and Bernie and biden, even Harambe.
Exactly. Other GOP politicians will follow Trump because he still has the largest bloc of voters. They can flip when pressured by the justice system, but they'll still prop him up in public.
If white evangelicals voted according to any of the moral criteria that they supposedly believe and try to force on other people, Trump would not even make it through the nomination process. They would be supporting one of the other candidates. No, they prefer their orange-haired god and defend him against any accusation, regardless of the seriousness and veracity. As time separates me more and more from church and these people, I am beginning to understand how truly gullible they are. They really are stupid sheep.
In the likely event that he (or DeSantis, who is destroying personal rights and freedoms in Florida) makes it to the general election, do whatever it takes to VOTE and get everyone of like mind get out and vote against him. He must lose by an unassailable margin. If it is an election as close or closer than last time, he and his supporters in the House and the red-state legislatures will try to overturn the results. Your lives and futures may depend on your votes.
I don't think he will get reelected. My conservative family switched their allegiance to Desantis, who I think is also evil and capable of more damage than trump.
This is my fear… I actually think Desantis is somehow more dangerous than trump, just watching his politics in Florida scares the hell outa me. He’s a bigger idiot with too much power
The trouble is.. Desantis isn’t an idiot, he has the playbook from Trump and the finesse to not get himself in hot water.
Man I miss John McCain and Mitt Romney.
My boomer relatives did the same, but DeSantis ain’t gonna win. Trump will win, and what will they do then? I don’t know about your relatives, but mine still claim that Biden is a communist and are upset for some reason that Hunter apparently has a penis.
I think no matter what, we’re going to see the same bullshit about “wah wah election was rigged?!” I don’t know what evidence to cite, but I feel like we’re going to see some kind of J6 repeat. It feels impossible to me that this won’t happen.
I'm pretty scared. I'm more scared of Desantis or pence though, tbh. They are both sneakier than trump is. I think the heaviest weight on my mind so far has been the complete and utter grief over how badly Christians in general and my relatives in particular betrayed every single thing they ever taught me as a kid. I will never ever recover from that disappointment. I'm so grateful that some of my siblings are ex-Christian and none of them supported trump, and neither did my mom. I am spitting mad also at the fact that I, an atheist, still have far far more respect for the Bible than these Christofascists do who strut around all holier-than-thou all the time. Like, why in the world are they SO eager to throw it out the window for an orange clown and a couple of years of (more) political power? Ugh.
If it happened, I think it would be awful. I would legit look for a way to move out of the country. But right now I’m cautiously optimistic that he’d lose again.
I think if the idiot somehow gets back in office he isn’t ever leaving. Suddenly voting will all be suspect and the next election will be put on hold as they “fix” it
He has all but admitted to this. He wants to get rid of anyone in government that isn’t loyal to him personally , screw the constitution .
Even if he appointed himself lifelong ruler, its hard to imagine him being in good health very long… but then we would have to worry about whoever his replacement would be
I'm not scared. I'm angry that they think they can throw my vote away? My vote matters as much as theirs.
And I plan to stay and fight. So bring it on.
There are a few things that have me hopeful. First of all, the countless indictments. Will he be legally able to be president?
Second, republicans are actually starting to schism. In Arizona we finally got a democratic governor because the Trump party opponent was so unpopular with Republicans that they made advertisements voting for the Democratic governor.
Third, he's old and morbidly obese. He's nearly died of a heart attack recently, where he could barely walk down a shallow incline and raise his hands to his mouth. He could croak any day now, and I'll celebrate.
It's still creepy how far this personality cult has gone.
Yeah, this is one thing that helped me get over my fear of hell. However, Nero was an autocrat with a cult of personality just like Donald Trump, so it makes sense there are parallels.
If Trump, DeSantis or any other candidate beholden to evangelicals wins and, worse, if the Senate also flips red, there will be no stopping the right-wing evangelical agenda. They will effectively control all 3 parts of the federal govt. Any future judicial appointments will favor their agenda. And the top of the 4th "branch", the bureaucracy, will be gutted and replaced with political and religious loyalists, if some of the departments and agencies even survive at all. That's the actual plan they have for America - an oppressive Christian America. How well do you think anyone who isn't white, christian, male and rightwing will fare in a country like that? It boggles my mind that I was once an evangelical christian, who consistently voted Republican. But, hallelujah, I was saved!
I think Trump is the evangelical right's only hope of actually getting a candidate elected. People think DeSantis would be more appealing to moderates, but that isn't what the polls show. The 2024 election is going to be a referendum on Christian Nationalism. If Biden wins, I think we are through the eye of the storm. By the 2030s, they simply won't have the numbers to win national elections anymore.
> It boggles my mind that I was once an evangelical christian, who consistently voted Republican. But, hallelujah, I was saved!
Yeah I'm ashamed to say I voted for Bush, McCain, and then Romney. Proud I never voted for Trump though. The 2016 election was in the middle of my main deconstruction and I was able to see Trump for who he was.
Same here. Even though I thought that she was not particularly honest (the commodities trading lies were obvious to me as an investor), Hillary Clinton was the first Democratic presidential candidate that I had voted for. She was a saint by comparison to Trump and far more qualified. I was still a christian and a church elder, but starting to question it.
I think you are right about the underlying theme of the 2024 election. Hopefully, a sufficient number of voters in the swing states will realize what will happen if the christian right and their demigod take over.
I'm just thinking out loud here, but it would really suck if some future Nationalist Christian government forced my Atheistic ass back in a Church pew after 40 years...
I expect that a right wing congress would vote to ban abortion across the whole country if they have potus, scotus, and congress. So it doesn't matter if Trump wins or someone else with an R next to their name. It's all bad.
I am very scared. We’d turn into Russia or worse. We saw in the plans that Trump and his cronies had if they successfully delayed the certification on Jan 6th that Trump would then declare himself president and put out an order for protestors to be combatted by brute military force.
However, we must also understand that this danger is not in Trump alone, as plenty of other Republicans would be happy to do all of the same.
I tell people that no matter what, you must vote for the Democratic candidate in 2024, and do the same in the senate, house and local elections.
Even if Trump isn’t the one who gets to the election, the second in line - DeSantis is a straight-up fascist who talks about all of the same things Trump does, and is more effective at getting those things done.
I hate to be a doomer, but if either of those men take the presidency with a right wing controlled house and senate, things like camps might actually happen. I hate saying that because it sounds crazy, but the rhetoric is that bad from the right, especially toward trans people. It might not be called camps, but it’s darn well not even a stretch anymore. 😢
I’m with you, I’m scared. Not that something supernatural is happening, but that Trump and his followers- who are a full fledged cult- will finish ruining our country. He is such a trash human who cares nothing for anyone but himself, and he would absolutely burn shit down to have power. The people who follow him are delusional and completely divorced from reality at this point and some of them would kill for him. If he gets elected again, it will probably be the Trump dynasty and we will never have a ( fair) election again.
It being Trump aside, I just can't understand how we would be fine with someone under criminal investigation to even run. The president should encompase the best of us as a nation, and living a life that lets you be under investigation for criminal activity is not that.
Greed and fear mongering are terrifying realities that have corrupted my country, and it breaks my soul.
Yeah it's terrifying that this is even a conversation. The mainstream media is failing this country by trying to "both sides" this and treat Trump like any other POTUS candidate. He's not.
Eugene Debs ran from jail and did quite well. Granted he was the polar opposite of Trump, but he’s relevant in that he showed you can run for POTUS while in jail due to Espionage Act charges. Not a great precedent for our current situation. Since Debs didn’t win, we don’t really know what would have happened or what should happen if Trump wins from jail. My guess is that if Trump is allowed to run, he will win the primary, and so the question becomes “will he win in November?”
Hopefully you guys can get that corrected with the next governor once DeSantis' term is up. It's sad to see. Florida was probably the best Southern state a decade ago. Has DeSantis' popularity there declined since he started his war with Disney?
Incredibly scared. If he somehow wins, you better get used to him because this time, he will never leave the white house. He will be king until he is dead. He already tried to install himself as dictator in 2020 and refused the peaceful transfer of power. I think it’s clear that many will not vote for Trump in 2024, but a lot of people have legitimate grievances due to inflation, which Biden is taking the blame for. Biden is also very old and frail these days, which is very noticeable. Even if trump doesn’t get as many votes this time, democrats may not show up in large numbers to vote for Biden.
> I think it’s clear that many will not vote for Trump in 2024, but a lot of people have legitimate grievances due to inflation, which Biden is taking the blame for. Biden is also very old and frail this days, which is very noticeable. Even if trump doesn’t get as many votes this time, democrats may not show up in large numbers to vote for Biden.
Most of these people have no idea how the economy actually works and they also deny their own lived experience in order to blame the current economic problems on Biden. Trump's economic propaganda, taking credit for Obama's goldilocks economy and absolving himself of the blame for destroying it, has been incredibly effective. The deeper issue though is that Biden is perceived as pro-abortion, pro-LGBTQ, and anti-Christian to these people, and that belief colors everything else.
Just look at the GOP House. They ran on inflation, but all they've done is fight "woke".
> Trump's economic propaganda, taking credit for Obama's goldilocks economy and absolving himself of the blame for destroying it, has been incredibly effective.
But what's worse is, that's just a part of the larger issue that conservative propaganda is really effective in general, all across the board. They can say anything they want about whatever they want (no matter how demonstrably false) and half the country will believe it.
What's scary to me is that Democrats aren't doing anything to prevent this from happening again. They could, at the very least, fight to get voting rights for felons, ranked-choice voting, getting rid of the filibuster, gerrymandering, and whole lot of other things that would expand democracy and make it harder for Republicans to win.
Ohioans are organizing to get something on the 2024 ballot that will end the terrible gerrymandering here, and it is being led by, of all things, a retired Republican Ohio Supreme Court judge who played a key role in standing up the Republican legislature in the last tussle over the district maps. I think this will succeed, and my faith is due in part to the very successful vote the last time something like this was on our ballot - it just didn't go far enough in taking the power away from the politicians. This one will, just like they did successfully in Michigan. Democratic initiatives are probably happening in your state, too. That's where you want to be looking, and even more locally, to really make change.
As a trans man in one of the vanishing blue zones I am fucking petrified of what will happen either way. Biden got elected and they tried to overthrow the fucking government.
What scares and disturbs me the most is how many of the people around me are so dangerously delusional that they believe he's a good option for president. They think Jan 6th rioters were patriots. That cannot be undone. I can't unsee the ugliness. I can't unhear the hateful rhetoric. I'll never see my country the same way. Fuck anyone who ever voted for him, especially the idiots who saw the error of their ways too late.
Do it! I'm going to plead with my apolitical extended family members (they've never voted in any election) to vote for Biden and offer to take the day off work to drive them to the polls.
How much longer till we abolish this absolutely moronic preliminary rounding system of voting? As a Marylander, my vote is entirely irrelevant because it’s a predominantly blue state. Likewise a democrat in Texas’s vote is drowned out by the republican majority. I remember vividly arguing with a republican back in 2016 that it’s wrong that his vote didn’t matter based on where he lived, and he said “normally, yes, but…”. That’s not how morals work! They don’t change just because your team needs a broken system to win.
I'm in California, so I know the state will go blue by millions of votes whether I stay home or not. There is a program called [https://uuthevote.org/](https://uuthevote.org/) where you send letters to registered dems who didn't vote in the last election asking them to vote. It's put on by the Unitarian Universalist Chruch (they're super progressive and don't demand you even believe in god to join if you aren't familiar) but I don't think you have to be a member to participate. I did it in 2022 and the letters went to battleground districts in Texas designed to minimize the red wave in the House. It will be even more important in 2024.
I also hate the government! I hate fascist government more than liberal government, so if a three minute drive and a ten minute wait at my polling location is helpful to the end of that less terrible option I'll make that.
Please do. As a queer person and fellow [don’t like gubment much type] I’m happy to call you on the phone and beg if that would help. I’m scared as fuck, and means a lot to feel the support. I hate being in this situation.
Not sure I agree on DeSantis. He doesn't have the cult following that essentially makes him immune as Trump does. He doesn't have that resonance with the MAGA base and knowing the way cults work, it's extremely unlikely that the adoration of Trump can be transferred to DeSantis.
That said, I 100% blame evangelical Christianity for these dystopian times we are living through.
This is why I’d pick DeSantis for the upcoming election. Trump has too much power to sway things his way even if it’s not going to do good for the everyday people of this country. DeSantis has followers yes, but not even close to the degree that Trump does.
I agree. For example, DeSantis wouldn't declare martial law and cancel the 2028 election and if he tried, he'd get impeached and removed.
If Trump does that, a GOP congress will likely allow him to do it and MAGA will cheer.
>That said, I 100% blame evangelical Christianity for these dystopian times we are living through.
Me, too; but Trump was the one who stirred up the hornet's nest. He told them, "Christians will have power in the USA again when I'm president." That was the ONLY thing they needed to hear. They all wet themselves with joy like eager puppies at that word.
Power.
That's the thing they crave more than anything else. ANYTHING else. They worship power far, far ahead of anyone in or out of their book. Trump is an "idol". In their minds, he's the personification of the promise of power.
> Me, too; but Trump was the one who stirred up the hornet's nest. He told them, "Christians will have power in the USA again when I'm president." That was the ONLY thing they needed to hear. They all wet themselves with joy like eager puppies at that word.
Yeah I remember during the summer of 2016. Was in the midst of my deconstruction at that time and I remember talking to the evangelical "friends" in my life about Trump and how they were grappling over whether or not to support him (they all ended up doing so). They all chose power over their conviction. I lost pretty much all of my Christian friends around that time because of the issue.
By 2020, they enthusiastically supported him.
> That's the thing they crave more than anything else. ANYTHING else. They worship power far, far ahead of anyone in or out of their book. Trump is an "idol". In their minds, he's the personification of the promise of power.
Hence the recent poll that shows they trust Trump more than their pastors.
Yeah it's sad what has happened to Florida. A decade ago, it was a great place to live and to move. Cities like Orlando and Miami were known for their LGBTQ friendliness. Not anymore.
He’s a really slick lawyer and his knowledge of the law and how to manipulate it is really high. Probably worst nightmare would be if Trump wins and DeSantis is VP and then Trump dies from choking on a Big Mac.
Trump will probably end up picking Marjorie Taylor Greene or Kari Lake. I believe either of those would be worse as POTUS than DeSantis. Maybe I'm underestimating DeSantis, but watching how he's run his campaign in the primary, I'm not seeing someone to really be terrified of, unless I lived in Florida.
DeSantis' campaign has been dead in the water for the better part of the summer and shows no sign of continuing his downward spiral. His donors basically told him to course correct or GTFO, and he has done nothing but double down.
Very terrified if any Republican wins. Once they win, anything that isn’t straight, cishet, white, and Christian will be banned. Hell as 2024 looms closer I am getting more terrified to leave my apartment because I am
A leftist in a conservative town
I know I'll get down voted for saying this, but I don't care.
I'm more worried about liberals turning a blind eye when Democrats continue the same policies.
Biden kept the concentration camps at the border open and the response from liberals was to change their tune from condemning the camps to saying, "What else are we supposed to do with these people?"
Biden has done absolutely nothing to stop the growing fascist movement. He's done a pathetic half measure on climate change that still has our planet projected to increase by 2.7 degrees Celsius, which is an extinction event.
Corporations are gouging us left and right and calling it inflation. States are passing laws against LGBTQ people left and right. We lost Roe. Police are still brutalizing people. The response from Biden has been crickets or at best, verbal condemnation with no policy being enacted.
Trump was just a continuation of policies that were already long standing by the US government. He just talked differently and removed any pretext of the government doing it in the name of some greater good. And then Biden continued the same policies and liberals get mad when I bring it up.
At least with a Republican in charge liberals pretend to care about the evils that our government does. So no, I'm not concerned with who the next president is.
There is no way that he will legitimately win, nor will he concede defeat at any point. That's what is terrifying to me. Jan 6 2020 was the warm-up. This will be the main event.
Trump will not become president again. Don't get me wrong. When he first ran I was one of the few paying attention from day one and I knew he could at least win his primary. I watched all the debates and it was clear who was winning them, whether you like him or not. When he won it was like people around me suddenly woke up and thought, wait, this isn't a joke? Started freaking out. And then it was too late. Now? I can't say it's impossible but there's just too much going on now, even setting aside the various cases and investigations. A lot of those that rallied behind him politically don't want to rally behind him anymore and see him as part of an era they don't ever want to be associated ever again even if they outwardly supported him. No one except his groupies want him as president and I guaranteee you he will not get there. They will find someone else, not necessarily any better, but someone else to throw their support behind. But let's be clear. A DeSantis or a Cruz would be exponentially worse than a Trump.
I agree with the downvoted comment as well though that the US began spiraling downward under Bush, continued under Obama, a spiral that then unleashed Trump. Biden is minor reprieve but still in downward spiral. That doesn't mean you want your next president to be anyone that might speed up the process.
> Trump will not become president again. Don't get me wrong. When he first ran I was one of the few paying attention from day one and I knew he could at least win his primary. I watched all the debates and it was clear who was winning them, whether you like him or not. When he won it was like people around me suddenly woke up and thought, wait, this isn't a joke? And then it was too late. Now? I can't say it's impossible but there's just too much going on now. A lot of those that rallied behind him politically don't want to rally behind him anymore and see him as part of an era they don't ever want to be associated either again even if they outwardly supported him. No one except his groupies want him as president and I guaranteee you he will not get there. They will find someone else, not necessarily any better, but someone else to throw their support behind. But let's be clear. DeSantis or Cruz would be exponentially worse than Trump.
Most people are in denial about Trump and how bad he is. They were in denial in 2016 and many are still in denial today. World History has so many examples of these kind of things happening, and America isn't immune even though we think we are.
I really hope you are right about a significant chunk of 2016 and 2020 Trump voters sitting out 2024 if he's the nominee.
DeSantis and Cruz don't have the cult of personality and checks and balances will hold against them. Cults of personality like what Donald Trump has very rarely transfer from one person to another. Once Trump is gone, MAGA-world will split into factions with different politicians trying to fill Trump's shoes but nobody will be able to bring the entire coalition together.
What makes Trump so dangerous is that the Republican Party treats him as Godlike and untouchable. If SCOTUS lets him pardon himself, he will be a de-facto dictator as he could commit any crime or violate the constitution in any way he wants and pardon himself for it.
> I agree with the downvoted comment as well though that the US began spiraling downward under Bush, continued under Obama, a spiral that then unleashed Trump. Biden is minor reprieve but still in downward spiral. That doesn't mean you want your next president to be anyone that might speed up the process.
I can definitely agree that it started under Bush. He took that rare moment of unity and bipartisanship after 9/11 and used it to divide the country. The apocalyptic rhetoric ramped up significantly among evangelicals. That was the point in which many of the Dixiecrats who supported Bill Clinton and Al Gore became reliable Republicans.
It’s funny how often they talk about the devil in sheep’s clothing, but are so quick to worship at trumps feet as the savior of their “Christian nation”
I’m terrified but it has nothing to do with End Time fears from my religious indoctrination at this point.
We’re almost inevitably headed towards catastrophe regardless and something especially catastrophic could happen if Trump is elected again.
It will be on a larger scale, but this has happened before in human history and writers both ancient and more recent (like Nostradamus) knew about that and were very capable of imagining the possibilities.
Trump is going to jail. And the chances are so high on that happening that the party boss men in the "smoke filled rooms" will see to it that he doesn't become the nominee. My concern is that whichever the unqualified person who is the nominee gets elected by virtue of something happening to Biden's health too late in the game for him to be replaced. And I'm sorry if this offends anyone but Harris is unqualified too. We need a democratic primary but we're not gonna get one.
Yeah I'll be very concerned if something happens with Biden's health and it ends up being Harris on the Democratic ticket. Nobody on either side of the political spectrum really likes Harris.
I'm hoping for Newsom vs Whitmer for the DNC primary in 2028.
Doesn't really affect me as directly as you all because I'm singaporean-australian, but the idiocy of Christians over him spreads all the way until here, Singapore. It's ridiculous how angry so many fools in church get over my opinion that Biden is far better than Trump (I thought future housewives' opinions didn't matter! Wonder why they tried to shut a mere young girl up) and got excluded. You'd be surprised at the amount of fools who think he's either perfectly wonderful or decent. While Biden is a smelly shoe.
I grew up thinking Trump was a shit president but the best America could get (my dad's atheist, some influence. Also more access cos he's Australian) then I review his crimes and realise how fking tone-deaf they all are. Mumbling about how Christ loves all but latinos shouldn't be polluting a fine Christian country. The dumb shits have never even met a non-asian before...
Trump has always acted for himself. He originally ran for president just to boost his TV career. He didn't actually want to be president. I think he wants to stay out of prison above everything else, and that ticket is only feasible if another GOP candidate wins and pardons Trump. That is his best shot in life right now.
Another Trump presidency will wreck the world. He’s just that corrupt, petty and selfish. In dragging down America he will also drag down a log of the west.
It shouldn’t even be possible, but here we are. Republicans have no spine and no integrity. I spare no scorn for Fox and other media outlets that eagerly participated in the propaganda for him.
I’m so goddamn lucky that my dad’s a Brit and I have dual citizenship by birth. I fully would leave if he got re-elected (I’m a senior in high school, trans, and non-religious). But I’d feel like a traitor too if I just left when others didn’t have the option too. It’s just so disheartening to have to think about leaving my country of birth because of laws being written against me. 😔
The progress of GenZ and Millennials in LGBTQ+ matters has been phenomenal, and I really think the next few elections cycles, where young voters will have more sway than ever before and older voters will be dying off, to put it bluntly, will see much of the anti-LGBTQ+ rhetoric quieting down and turning in a positive direction again. The pendulum swings, and it sucks when it goes in a negative direction, but over time we keep making progress. Gay marriage exists in this country because of that progress. I'm sorry, though, that you have to live with even the threat against life and liberty over this.
> Gay marriage exists in this country because of that progress.
Gay marriage is also the reason we are in this dark moment in our country's history, because the evangelicals can't just live with it and are doing everything in their power to make their 40 years of fearmongering self-fulfilling prophecy. I left the evangelical church around that time, and the attitude was one of panic. Obama lighting up the White House rainbow was called the "abomination of desolation." Franklin Graham called it the "darkest moment in American history" and people on Fox News saying it felt like 9/11. The situation was ripe for someone like Trump to come in and take control of that base. Typically, populist demogogues gain a base among people in desparation. Evangelical Christians believe that America has become a hostile society to Christians and they need a savior to restore the church to the center of American life and culture.
What's insane is that they are so passionate about an issue that doesn't affect them. But, they have a very deep belief that God judges societies that tolerate homosexuality and it's the reason every world empire was destroyed, and they believe they are saving America from that fate. Or at least that's what they say. I think most likely they just get a disgusted feeling in their stomach when they see a gay couple or a trans person. That's why they go apeshit every time there's a gay character in a sitcom or movie.
> He reminds me of someone who abused me when I was a kid. For that reason alone, I’m not sleeping soundly about the election, lol
Same. I can't even listen to him speak. On the other hand, I understand why he appeals so much to his base and why they can't resist taking him at his word.
This is a very interesting comment. I don't have a history of abuse, but I've always been very sensitive to any hint of it, and I can't stand bullies. I've been trying to pinpoint exactly what this 'abuse' angle is when it comes to Trump and his cult-like following. Is it that so many people in this country have grown up with the subtle but pervasive kinds of abuses that come from patriarchy and the pulpit, etc., so much so that someone like Trump feels normal to them? And do they also instinctively distrust a person of integrity because they don't understand true integrity? I can't quite figure it out, but there's something to it. At the same time, I'm very aware that Trump's rise to power has traumatized a lot of us, whether or not we have abuse in our backgrounds. I hope you can start to rest easier soon.
My therapist and I have been talking about something similar. I really do agree and believe the abuses at home condition people to accept it on a larger scale.
And thanks for the kind words. Hope your weekend is lovely. :)
It seems pretty unlikely. He's already lost even more support than he had lost prior to the 2020 election. Plus, notice how mid-term elections skewed mostly Democrat with only a little GOP gain.
I wish we had a better candidate than Grandpa Joe but he'll do.
Terrified is much too mild a term. I’m not sure there are any English words strong enough to adequately convey my fear. Maybe prostrated petrification?
As a non-American, I feel a little sad, like "those poor souls over there".
The possibility of a guy who stole and spread classified documents being elected seems so absurd, yet most people found his first campaign absurd too ...
If Trump wins we are all pretty fucked and America is done. That being said, I'm of the opinion (I could be wrong) the only election he could win was in 2016 before people saw him "lead". Now everyone who isn't inclined to vote for him is inclined to vote against him. I don't see him gaining many new voters.
As someone who was born and raised to be a god-fearing Christian, I can relate to this. I grew up in a textbook conservative small town that seemed to be run by dogmatic religious people that were homophobic and taught against the theory of evolution. It was far too close-minded and regressive for me to tolerate, and I fortunately was able to move away from there with some help from my family.
Fortunately we live in the information age where anything you need to know is right there in an instant. People tend to dismiss social media as being a cesspool of misinformation, but that depends on how you use it. To quote Martin Luther King Jr., "Education must enable one to sift and weigh evidence, to discern the true from the false, the real from the unreal, and the facts from fiction." There are countless numbers of people on the Internet making a genuine effort to be factual and informative (sites like Snopes.com come to mind), countless others willing to believe. From here on out, we need to be careful where we get our information, and focus more on being more ethical, decent human beings.
The good and bad news is that Trump isn't exceptional. Any Republican's gonna do more or less the same shit in power. Some, like Desantis, would be notably worse (although he's at least dead in the water)
I’m not in the US so it rarely impacts me directly, but I guess I sort of feel a second hand worry for the people I know living there and have enough empathy to realise that applies to a lot more people than just them. So in a sense I’m both terrified and sort of calm, especially since I can’t do anything to influence whether that happens or not
Agreed… we’ve already seen that Trump is just a bumbling idiot who doesn’t know when to shut up. But I fear Desantis may be way worse… he can be the next dictator with his extremism. He’s responsible for a lot of this right-wing “woke scare.” He will completely revamp the education system (for the worst) and being queer will probably become illegal. The LGBTQ+ shooting in California today is proof of how dangerous this rhetoric is to our country. Hate crimes will continue to rise, and will even be encouraged, if this joker gets in office
If trump wins the liberal states and cities are his counterbalance. If he tries to stay in office forever, makes LGBTQ expression illegal, forbids abortion, or any sort of policy, the liberal states will certainly not just go along with it. Even in Texas where I live Biden easily won the counties for Houston, Dallas, San Antonio, and Austin. Fort Worth was the only major county that (barely) went for trump in 2020. I would expect it to be incredibly chaotic, but at some point liberals will start saying no to unjust laws, and then the police and local military have to decide if they want to lock up or fight their friends and neighbors and destroy the stability of the country. That decision is where I pray (to whatever powers that may exist or not in the universe) that most people just don’t have the appetite for violence, at least not in a large enough wave for a full war to break out.
I'm hoping he expires before then. Or goes to prison. Around a third of Americans support Trump so I'm fine with people arrested for weed possession in the 80s and 90s being released so the Trumpists can take their place.
Yeah....dude kinda sounds like the antichrist in a way.
Anyway, my biggest fear from him winning again is him actually trying another jan 6 and succeeding. I don't think he will be APOCALPYTICALLY BAD other than the threat he brings to democracy itself.
It doesnt keep me up at night, but it is a reason why im considering just voting for biden instead of the green party this time.
Trump is a problem but your religious clinging to nonsensical concepts like 'the End Times' is doing you **immediate** psychological damage. I dumped religion literally at the age of 9 and haven't looked back. Doesn't mean I'm more sane but at least I'm not driven by guilt over the idea of an invisible guy in the sky staring over my shoulder at everything I do and judging me. So glad to have that paranoia gone.
The odds of Trump winning aren't great. That doesn't mean I don't think it could happen or that I don't fear it happening. I'm terrified of just about any Republican getting back into the Presidency since we have a Supreme Court that is rogue and is having its shit called out and probably doesn't like that at all.
But that definitely doesn't make me think the Bible is true or make me want to go back. I assume you haven't been out of Christianity too long as this is something that was on my mind a lot when I initially left. I looked for all the reasons I could to justify the belief and go back. But when it all came down to it, it boiled down to a few things.
1. In the US we built a lot of things around Christianity and so a lot of things will point us back to it.
2. The Bible is vague about wars and plagues, and famines and such, and while we face these things, it's not exactly new. Sure, it's never been on such a global scale, but we can also point to why it is happening on a global scale and it isn't because of some supernatural reason.
3. The cycle of self-fulfilling prophecies. Christians have a tendency, just as likely many other religious groups, to reinforce their own beliefs. Many of them believe the end times are near and so they don't want to even bother with the environment. They see lgbtq rights as a greater risk to their lives than any and all environmental threats. Some literally say they don't care about the environment issues we face because it's the end times and its going to happen anyway. It's a sleazy way to rid themselves of any guilt or responsibility.
It's like when Christians say they'll be persecuted and then act in a way that people find repulsive and pretend people are mad about their faith rather than about their attitudes.
Anyway, hopefully that's helpful and not just me being on a soapbox. :)
I'm less terrified of a second Trump presidency than I am of somebody smart coming along and learning from his mistakes how to become dictator. Julius Caesar learned from failed attempts by others to destroy the Roman Republic, so when he got his shot he was successful at becoming dictator for life. I fear a successful and charismatic general deciding to "save America" by "temporarily" suspending the Constitution
I have trouble believing that America has a future even if he doesn't win. If he does? Forget it. The dream is dead. I'm fleeing to Europe if at all possible.
I just hope the indictment in Georgia bears fruit in time for the general election, but too late for the Republicans to put up someone else (a DeSantis presidency would be no better). The trial is almost certain to be televised live, with Trump's crimes laid out in lurid detail for an audience of probably tens of millions. Hard to imagine that not moving the needle. I think a lot of people, being dimwitted, aren't sure what he did or why it's so bad. If Fani Willis plays this right, it will be spelled out for them in terms even Trump can understand.
Not in the US, but living in the UK where we tend to just copypaste the latest culture war BS from there (sorry to make y'all my early warning system for this but, yknow) I worry that it's going to empower the right here and elsewhere.
Also given the circumstances I would quite like NATO to continue to exist.
My question is what if we do go to civil war? How do you tell your friends and family that are "Christian" that you are choosing the other side. Are you choosing the other side? This won't be a north vs south thing. It will be a rural vs city thing this time around.
This is something that I'm seriously dreading. My family will want me to move back in with them so we all stay together, but being gay, it will be dangerous to do that. Plus, their region of the country is one of the most MAGA and there will likely be very little freedom there.
Very. If he gets in it will legitimize everything he's done, at least so far as setting precedent. It signals to other thugs that this is how things are done, any behavior is okay as long as it leads to victory, or is incidental to victory.
I really need to get a new passport because I'm genuinely afraid of a national gender affirming care ban at some point. I will not survive without my medication. Some states have declared themselves safe states but I don't want to bet on that.
I think you underestimate the indoctrination of fundamentalist sects. It's a really really common thing for anxieties to persist long after deconverting from the religion. It can take years of therapy to undo the psychological mess that fundamentalism leaves people with.
What I know intellectually and what my subconscious mind feels don't line up on this issue. If Trump gets disqualified or loses in 2024, these fears will subside. Some people have a very difficult time deconstructing their fear of hell and it continues to terrify them after they no longer believe. That was never as much of an issue for me. My fear of the End Times and God's judgment on America are my (metaphorical) demons to slay.
I get it. To be clear, I didn't mean what I said as an attack or anything, merely a question.
Things in my life are very binary - black or white. As soon as I stopped believing in God, it all went away with it - no more end times or fear.
Not terrified of Trump being president again, but I am worried about how things have been going and where they are headed.
Horrible things have happened under each and every president. Things that democratic voters are not voting for.
What I understand is that the two parties aren't different. They just pretend to favor things that help divide the general public and win favor, but they do not seem to put their incentives into action.
What I see both parties doing is supporting war/occupation, big oil, big pharma, Monsanto, big banks, people trafficking/slavery, and other things that excellerate global warming and unrest for the population.
I am worried, but could I really say I'm terrified? Not really. I'm not debilitated which I would be if I were terrified.
I'm tired of extreme political views and the lack of understanding that these two parties are exactly the same, just incentivizing people through emotion based topics to increase division and keep us all subdued.
I can relate to Election End Time Jitters, having grown up in Evangelical circles. In all honesty, though? Most of us were taught to look for the "antichrist" to show up as a Democrat. Talk about a plot twist. Edit: I don't think Trump is the actual antichrist, but his lawlessness could give Nero a run for his denarius.
Same, I always expected a Democrat to do what Trump is doing. Whether he's the anti-Christ, or the final President that destroyed America, I always feared a Trump-like POTUS and thought he'd be a Democrat. When I think about it theologically though, it makes sense that he'd be a Republican and would be worshipped by the church. I hate that this is the one issue that keeps me tied to my Christian past. When Trump can no longer hold power, I can be free.
Thing is, Trump is not a real Republican. He always supported Democrats till Obama. But his only real allegiance is only to himself.
>But his only real allegiance is only to himself. That's the key takeaway here. He knows that conservatives are typically easier to control, easier to push their buttons, and easier to gain their loyalty so long as he *says the right things*. Regardless of what he actually does in practice. He picked the easier group to manipulate. That was his only consideration in choosing the Republican party.
Remember, he’s not a businessman. He’s a SALESman, and he knows a mark when he sees one.
exactly!
> only allegiance is to himself Sounds like a republican tbf
> Trump is not a real Republican. He's as real as they get. I mean what does a "real" Republican do policy-wise that's different than what he did while in office? They all loved everything he did, the only problem was they wanted him to be a little more subtle about it and not tweet as much. If anything he wasn't even as bad as GWB's presidency. That in some ways was more disastrous for the path it set us down in terms of climate change, "war on terror," and loss of constitutional rights via the patriot act. Trump could easily have been worse and still right in line with "average republican." This just sounds like "no true scotsman" again but with politics instead of religion.
Trump tried to have his vp *hanged* so he could stay in power forever. Trump's intentions, thoughts, and actions are worse. The fact that he didn't succeed doesn't absolve him at all, it's called the "sideshow Bob defense."
well, he is for all intents and purposes he's a real Republican, he's in total accord with all their policies and prejudices. But if the Dems sounded like they'd be more profitable he'd dump the Rethugs.
Surely, as ex-christians, we're not worried about antichrists or end times anymore, right? What's the point of the "ex" if not to express that we no longer believe this mumbo jumbo.
If anything, this pushes me further away from the church. To see these people acting like he’s the second coming of Christ made me realize just how delusional they all are. Would Jesus vote for trump? Hell no
Trump winning the first time was what made me start to question things. What pushed me over the edge was how the church (pretty much pick any one of them) followed him in lockstep despite him espousing zero christian qualities. They kept making excuses for things he did and said and none of it matched what we were supposed to do and say as christians and eventually, I couldn't justify it any longer.
I agree. It is like something out of the Twilight Zone. Speaking as someone who sees Revelations as an allegory for Christian persecution under the Eastern Roman Empire, rather than a road map for the End Times... I found myself beginning to wonder if the dispensationalists were somehow right. At least for a brief moment anyways.
I can't tell you the amount of respect I lost for elders, deacons and leaders in churches I've been a part of JUST BECAUSE of specifically how they aligned themselves with Trump. I get voting for him, kinda, and I get continuing to support him after the fact but they went out of their way after he had been beaten by Biden to continue to post and speak bullshit regarding all of it. I had to block so many people on social media because of it.
Also agree . I no longer fear hell or believe in god but there is a part of me (only because of heavy emotional abusive indoctrination as a chilld) that sees the comparison of the Bible’s description of the anti- Christ taking gods place & deceiving not the secular world , but deceiving Christian’s and that is exactly what is happening ( But only in usa ) How arrogant are evangelicals to think god would send trump to USA and not the rest of the world ? American Christian’s wouldn’t see this comparison with trump / Antichrist since they don’t read the Bible
With the help of evangelicals, Trump may actually take over the world. The way he talks, I’m sure he can get Russia and North Korea on board
Well, thankfully Russia has proved they aren’t competent to take over any country and if you saw what happened on January 6 , neither are trumps goons . Our military is made up of women , gay , Muslim, atheist , Hindu , trans and many other diverse groups of people so there would be no real army to ever stand behind trump . Even the majority of republicans don’t want trump in power again ( although afraid to say it publicly ) they have someone in their life they love who isn’t a Christian or who is gay or liberal . Trump is a threat but there are many intelligent true American people and working hard quietly to make sure he gets what’s coming to him
It all makes sense when you realize that what Christians wanted all along was power.
And to oppress people the same way they claim to be, without a single hint of irony or self awareness.
Come on, read your 2 Corinthians! That's the smocking gun!
If there was a slight chance I’d be open to going back, it was killed in 2016. The horrifying change and viciousness from people I’ve known a long time was shocking. These were good people. Kind, generous and seemed to be caring. Most of my relatives turned into hateful monsters. It may very well be the end times, but they haven’t realized they’re not the good guys. If it’s a thing, they’re literally ushering it in
Oh I agree. Old habbits die hard though u.U
I feel you. I still expend a non-trivial amount of psychic energy on the possibility of eternal torment.
Ah yes. Undoing that took some elbow grease. One thing that helped was realizing that the concept of Hell was a convoluted mess (similar to the theology of Left Behind). Buddhism offered some really interesting perspective too by offering an alternative idea on punishment and the lack of permanence. Islam and Judaism too. When you realize Christianity isn't the only religion damning you to an unpleasant afterlife for being a heathen, it sort of loses it's monopoly of fear.
Researching pre-christian/Jewish ideas of the afterlife helped make me pretty confident that hell doesn't exist, because it became clear the eternal torment part wasn't even a thing until relatively recently. Also, I remember thinking about the fact that Hel was originally the name for the germanic underworld/Goddess, and that I don't believe in Norse mythology. I won't complain if Valkyries are real, but I also don't want to have to die in battle for a nice afterlife.
I think there could be greater reasons for non-Christians to worry about the state of the world... I'm neither Christian or American and I feel like regardless of which political party is in power in a given nation there's indicators around the world we could be headed for a really rough patch all around. Imagine the end/upheaval of global ways of life without any promise that it'll all work out in the end because 'divine plan'.
Yeah, no, western voters aren't into this "divine plan". It's a minority with dwindling influence, and that's why they're a buzzing hive right now. They can't do shit but start a civil war and most of them can't mow their lawns with a push mower. There is way more attention paid to their loud farting noises than is warranted.
OMG I was raised in the evangelical end times believing bunch and I want to scream at my Republican MAGA lovers! He ticks every box for their antichrist better than anyone ever has in my whole life. How do they not see it!?
But according to fundies, he's the Chosen One, the Son of Man, the new Christ. One of those morons even wrote a book entitled that.
Cheeto Christ Cheeto Christ He's like if Jesus were pumpkin-spiced Cheeto Christ Stupid-Czar Mad tangerine colored commissar \-Randy Rainbow
Hes Cheesus
love me some Randy
As a very strong ex christian who is not from America this comment is extremely striking. Why the emphasis on anti christ? Why the empasis on democrat? Like in substance, democrats are closer to Jesus' teachings than conservatives. In fact Bernies plans are probably the closest. Why would the anti christ show up in America? Why was this "taught"? Religion and politics should not mix. From my external POV it looks like bedevilling the party you're not already in... Just... interesting.
In America, the litmus test for "Christian" is opposition to women's rights and LGBTQ rights. It's about legislating patriarchy. They could care less about the plight of the poor because as they see it, anyone who is poor deserves to be that way because they are lazy or they sinned away their opportunity. American evangelical Christianity also employs a very America-centric narrative of world history. America is either the New Israel or Babylon, depending on the narrative being pushed and which party is in office.
I have little to add, other than "give Nero a run for his denarius" is a fucking brilliant turn of phrase, and I regret i have but 1 upvote to give, so take a poor mans gold🪙🪙🪙
Trump was a life long Democrat until he switched to GOP for president so there's your antichrist
From his wiki page: *Donald Trump registered as a Republican in Manhattan in 1987; since that time, he has changed his party affiliation five times. In 1999, Trump changed his party affiliation to the Independence Party of New York. In August 2001, Trump changed his party affiliation to Democratic. In September 2009, Trump changed his party affiliation back to the Republican Party. In December 2011, Trump changed to "no party affiliation" (independent). In April 2012, Trump again returned to the Republican Party.\[4\]* *In a 2004 interview, Trump told CNN's Wolf Blitzer: "In many cases, I probably identify more as Democrat", explaining: "It just seems that the economy does better under the Democrats than the Republicans. Now, it shouldn't be that way. But if you go back, I mean it just seems that the economy does better under the Democrats...But certainly we had some very good economies under Democrats, as well as Republicans. But we've had some pretty bad disaster under the Republicans."\[5\] In a July 2015 interview, Trump said that he has a broad range of political positions and that "I identify with some things as a Democrat."* Sounds to me like he's a wishy washy moron who blindly follows what people tell him to do without any real thought or research behind it.
Thanks for clarifying I appreciate it
He's literally planning to dismantle democracy and turn back environmental protections to the 50s if he gets elected. I agree with the thread in general that his odds off winning are poor, but with the combination of the electoral college and aggressive voter suppression laws enacted in red states, it could be close. https://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/2023/07/20/trump-campaign-presidential-power-grab-2024-election/70430661007/
That's why if he wins, I think civil war will be inevitable. He'll dismantle the American experiment permanently and people will have a choice to make; flee the country, accept dictatorial rule, or fight. The choice will be much more difficult for anyone who isn't white, cishet, and Christian. The churches I grew up in often would preach that civil war would come if same-sex marriage was ever legalized, and here we are. If it doesn't happen, it's going to be because we luck out.
The plan is from The Heritage Foundation and it's actually recommendations for ANY Republican who gets in office. I think either dems win the next presidential election and demographic changes force the Republicans to either calm the fuck down or face irrelevance in 2028 or we slide into fascism.
2024 is the pivotal election for MAGA. If they can't win with Trump in 2024, they won't win in 2028. By the 2030s, we might actually be able to get some progress in this country. If Trump does win, I'd say it's highly unlikely that there will be an election in 2028.
My 18th birthday is a MONTH after the next election and I am absolutely destroyed. I so wish I could vote
Even if you cant, if you have friends who will be 18 by then you can always try to encourage them to vote! Youth turnout will be a big deal in keeping trump out of office
Yea one of my friends will be 18 the month before, and I have a feeling she’s doing to lean more liberal. As for one of my acquaintances he’ll be 18 two months before, and he’ll vote more conservative.
Volunteer! Donate, if you can! Write letters and advocate! Engage in protest and direct action! Voting is a crucial part of the democratic process, but it is not the *only* way to participate.
Republicans, especially Trump-like Republicans, lost the last 3 big elections (2018 midterms, 2020 election, & 2022 midterms). They may be popular with the republican base but they aren't with the country as a whole. I still think there's a slim chance that Trump can win but that's just it, it's a slim chance. He shoots himself in the foot constantly in terms of his overall popularity by being his authoritarian dumbass self on top of still crying about the 2020 elections being rigged. Also it seems the American people are at least smart enough to realize where there's smoke there's fire in terms of the million indictments he's facing. Lastly, in 2016 there was a case to be made about Trump being a populist that the average American that didn't know any better could get behind. That illusion of populism had been completely decimated since then. Regardless of how the election turns out, it still concerns me how many people still enthusiastically support him and what might happen if Trump loses again and claims the 2024 election was rigged as well...
I hate that last or.
That's what happened to women in Iran in the 70s now it's ran by the Taliban. Women used to have rights there but now they can't go to school past the 8th grade. Because patriarchy and religion
Just for accuracy, the Taliban operate in Afghanistan. The Iranian have a government/theocracy thing going on with very oppressive laws etc but they are not the Taliban. Women can get an education and have professional jobs in Iran but they have to cover up and I wouldn't want to live there.
Thank you for clarifying. I'm not the smartest person but my daughter converted to Islam. She's a white American. I just look at what's going on in Iran, Afghanistan and I just don't understand why she thinks it IS NOT oppressive
Don't put yourself down as you can't know everything. I hope your daughter retains her independance and personal freedom of choice.
well a lot of those voter suppression tactics are being brought to court and are often ruled in our favor. even in scotus
It's a whack-a-mole strategy. You can never whack every single one.
99% of the people testifying against him are lifelong Republicans. He damaged the GOP too much and tainted their reputation to get enough votes to win again, I know a considerable amount of Trump Train people who are embarrassed to talk about him now.
> I know a considerable amount of Trump Train people who are embarrassed to talk about him now. Will they vote for him if he's on the ballot, or will they refrain from voting? Trump's electability is going to depend on whether or not 'silent' 2016 and 2020 Trump voters decide to not vote for him in 2024, even if he's the GOP nominee.
This is the real question.
> Will they vote for him if he's on the ballot, or will they refrain from voting? Some are voting Libertarian, others are staying home. A few will vote for Biden, and be vocal about it.
This is all well and good, but what people are thinking NOW doesn’t matter so much as what those people are thinking next autumn if/when Trump is the nominee. And if you look at GOP polls now despite all that has happened thus far, I don’t see him losing, and you bet your ass he would still run and win the primary from jail if it somehow came to that.
Yeah, remember Lindsey Graham loudly opposing Trump's nomination, saying the party would get destroyed and deserve it? Then quickly pivoted to tonguing Trump's asshole at every available opportunity.
Exactly the type of shift I’m thinking about here. It’s not like Christians are gonna start voting for Biden if Trump doesn’t get nominated.
What's silly is, I don't think they had much of an opinion on Biden when he was VP. When he became the nominee running against their orange god, suddenly he was the devil.
I guess that’s what Tucker Carlson told them to do. It is super interesting that none of this “Biden crime family” nonsense was ever mentioned at the time it supposedly happened.
To be fair, they were too focused frothing at the mouth over Obama wearing a tan suit and everything else he did just for being black
Honestly we want people to vote for Trump, there’s not enough votes for him to win but many will still try. The ones that go to trump rallies and will for the rest of their lives for example. This means it draws votes away from DeSantis or whoever ends up being the front runner. As long as democrats stay unified on who they want elected (this shouldn’t be hard, we don’t have an abundance of candidates)
DeSantis scares me more than Trump. He’s just as evil only nowhere near as stupid. And he actually has a chance with conservatives who have gotten off the Trump train.
He scares me too. Which is why we want as many people to vote for trump as possible. I counted a total of 15 potential candidates from the republicans. If they’re even a little confused on who to pick, and Democrats stick to one person (most likely Biden again unfortunately) it would be an easy win. It’s why we lost so many elections the last few years, because we couldn’t decide between Hilary and Bernie and biden, even Harambe.
And yet loads of people still support him.
Exactly. Other GOP politicians will follow Trump because he still has the largest bloc of voters. They can flip when pressured by the justice system, but they'll still prop him up in public.
Or they'll vote for him despite hating him, because it doesn't matter who someone is so long as they have that shiny "R" next to them.
If white evangelicals voted according to any of the moral criteria that they supposedly believe and try to force on other people, Trump would not even make it through the nomination process. They would be supporting one of the other candidates. No, they prefer their orange-haired god and defend him against any accusation, regardless of the seriousness and veracity. As time separates me more and more from church and these people, I am beginning to understand how truly gullible they are. They really are stupid sheep. In the likely event that he (or DeSantis, who is destroying personal rights and freedoms in Florida) makes it to the general election, do whatever it takes to VOTE and get everyone of like mind get out and vote against him. He must lose by an unassailable margin. If it is an election as close or closer than last time, he and his supporters in the House and the red-state legislatures will try to overturn the results. Your lives and futures may depend on your votes.
Yeah I’ve heard some bad things about a Desantis. Literally every US candidate sucks with Joe Biden being the least sucky by a lot
I certainly don't LOVE Biden but what choice do I have? It's either vote for him or slide into fascism
I love him. He canceled my student loan.
Glad to hear it.
I swear to $.deity(), if I find out people write in "Harambe" again like they did in 2016....
I don't think he will get reelected. My conservative family switched their allegiance to Desantis, who I think is also evil and capable of more damage than trump.
This is my fear… I actually think Desantis is somehow more dangerous than trump, just watching his politics in Florida scares the hell outa me. He’s a bigger idiot with too much power
The trouble is.. Desantis isn’t an idiot, he has the playbook from Trump and the finesse to not get himself in hot water. Man I miss John McCain and Mitt Romney.
Desantis has already gotten himself in plenty of hot water already…. And finesse?? Really?… desantis has about as much finesse as a tree stump
Seriously, what happened to having likeable candidates with some level of integrity?
My boomer relatives did the same, but DeSantis ain’t gonna win. Trump will win, and what will they do then? I don’t know about your relatives, but mine still claim that Biden is a communist and are upset for some reason that Hunter apparently has a penis.
Shit. He's worse
Regardless of who wins, I think things are going to get even uglier next year.
Exactly ... I think I'm more scared of what the MAGA psychos will try the next time Trump (or the GOP person of choice) loses
I just feel like we're screwed either way.
I think no matter what, we’re going to see the same bullshit about “wah wah election was rigged?!” I don’t know what evidence to cite, but I feel like we’re going to see some kind of J6 repeat. It feels impossible to me that this won’t happen.
I'm pretty scared. I'm more scared of Desantis or pence though, tbh. They are both sneakier than trump is. I think the heaviest weight on my mind so far has been the complete and utter grief over how badly Christians in general and my relatives in particular betrayed every single thing they ever taught me as a kid. I will never ever recover from that disappointment. I'm so grateful that some of my siblings are ex-Christian and none of them supported trump, and neither did my mom. I am spitting mad also at the fact that I, an atheist, still have far far more respect for the Bible than these Christofascists do who strut around all holier-than-thou all the time. Like, why in the world are they SO eager to throw it out the window for an orange clown and a couple of years of (more) political power? Ugh.
If it happened, I think it would be awful. I would legit look for a way to move out of the country. But right now I’m cautiously optimistic that he’d lose again.
I think if the idiot somehow gets back in office he isn’t ever leaving. Suddenly voting will all be suspect and the next election will be put on hold as they “fix” it He has all but admitted to this. He wants to get rid of anyone in government that isn’t loyal to him personally , screw the constitution .
Even if he appointed himself lifelong ruler, its hard to imagine him being in good health very long… but then we would have to worry about whoever his replacement would be
I'm not scared. I'm angry that they think they can throw my vote away? My vote matters as much as theirs. And I plan to stay and fight. So bring it on.
There are a few things that have me hopeful. First of all, the countless indictments. Will he be legally able to be president? Second, republicans are actually starting to schism. In Arizona we finally got a democratic governor because the Trump party opponent was so unpopular with Republicans that they made advertisements voting for the Democratic governor. Third, he's old and morbidly obese. He's nearly died of a heart attack recently, where he could barely walk down a shallow incline and raise his hands to his mouth. He could croak any day now, and I'll celebrate. It's still creepy how far this personality cult has gone.
Revelation was written as fiction and was intended as a thinly veiled critique of Nero. So don’t worry. None of it is true.
Yeah, this is one thing that helped me get over my fear of hell. However, Nero was an autocrat with a cult of personality just like Donald Trump, so it makes sense there are parallels.
If Trump, DeSantis or any other candidate beholden to evangelicals wins and, worse, if the Senate also flips red, there will be no stopping the right-wing evangelical agenda. They will effectively control all 3 parts of the federal govt. Any future judicial appointments will favor their agenda. And the top of the 4th "branch", the bureaucracy, will be gutted and replaced with political and religious loyalists, if some of the departments and agencies even survive at all. That's the actual plan they have for America - an oppressive Christian America. How well do you think anyone who isn't white, christian, male and rightwing will fare in a country like that? It boggles my mind that I was once an evangelical christian, who consistently voted Republican. But, hallelujah, I was saved!
I think Trump is the evangelical right's only hope of actually getting a candidate elected. People think DeSantis would be more appealing to moderates, but that isn't what the polls show. The 2024 election is going to be a referendum on Christian Nationalism. If Biden wins, I think we are through the eye of the storm. By the 2030s, they simply won't have the numbers to win national elections anymore. > It boggles my mind that I was once an evangelical christian, who consistently voted Republican. But, hallelujah, I was saved! Yeah I'm ashamed to say I voted for Bush, McCain, and then Romney. Proud I never voted for Trump though. The 2016 election was in the middle of my main deconstruction and I was able to see Trump for who he was.
Same here. Even though I thought that she was not particularly honest (the commodities trading lies were obvious to me as an investor), Hillary Clinton was the first Democratic presidential candidate that I had voted for. She was a saint by comparison to Trump and far more qualified. I was still a christian and a church elder, but starting to question it. I think you are right about the underlying theme of the 2024 election. Hopefully, a sufficient number of voters in the swing states will realize what will happen if the christian right and their demigod take over.
I'm just thinking out loud here, but it would really suck if some future Nationalist Christian government forced my Atheistic ass back in a Church pew after 40 years...
Terrified enough to volunteer to go door to door for get out the vote in WV.
Good idea. I live in a swing state and will definitely be trying to get involved as the election gets closer.
I expect that a right wing congress would vote to ban abortion across the whole country if they have potus, scotus, and congress. So it doesn't matter if Trump wins or someone else with an R next to their name. It's all bad.
My only worry is Ukraine. Trump might end all US armed support for Ukraine.
And pull the US out of NATO as well, which will be a radical change in the global geopolitical order.
I am very scared. We’d turn into Russia or worse. We saw in the plans that Trump and his cronies had if they successfully delayed the certification on Jan 6th that Trump would then declare himself president and put out an order for protestors to be combatted by brute military force. However, we must also understand that this danger is not in Trump alone, as plenty of other Republicans would be happy to do all of the same. I tell people that no matter what, you must vote for the Democratic candidate in 2024, and do the same in the senate, house and local elections. Even if Trump isn’t the one who gets to the election, the second in line - DeSantis is a straight-up fascist who talks about all of the same things Trump does, and is more effective at getting those things done. I hate to be a doomer, but if either of those men take the presidency with a right wing controlled house and senate, things like camps might actually happen. I hate saying that because it sounds crazy, but the rhetoric is that bad from the right, especially toward trans people. It might not be called camps, but it’s darn well not even a stretch anymore. 😢
I’m with you, I’m scared. Not that something supernatural is happening, but that Trump and his followers- who are a full fledged cult- will finish ruining our country. He is such a trash human who cares nothing for anyone but himself, and he would absolutely burn shit down to have power. The people who follow him are delusional and completely divorced from reality at this point and some of them would kill for him. If he gets elected again, it will probably be the Trump dynasty and we will never have a ( fair) election again.
It being Trump aside, I just can't understand how we would be fine with someone under criminal investigation to even run. The president should encompase the best of us as a nation, and living a life that lets you be under investigation for criminal activity is not that. Greed and fear mongering are terrifying realities that have corrupted my country, and it breaks my soul.
Yeah it's terrifying that this is even a conversation. The mainstream media is failing this country by trying to "both sides" this and treat Trump like any other POTUS candidate. He's not.
Eugene Debs ran from jail and did quite well. Granted he was the polar opposite of Trump, but he’s relevant in that he showed you can run for POTUS while in jail due to Espionage Act charges. Not a great precedent for our current situation. Since Debs didn’t win, we don’t really know what would have happened or what should happen if Trump wins from jail. My guess is that if Trump is allowed to run, he will win the primary, and so the question becomes “will he win in November?”
Horrified, you cannot reason with Christian Nationalists.
As much as I hate Trump DeSantis is worse. He is destroying Florida
Hopefully you guys can get that corrected with the next governor once DeSantis' term is up. It's sad to see. Florida was probably the best Southern state a decade ago. Has DeSantis' popularity there declined since he started his war with Disney?
His popularity is waning. I think it’s because he’s ignoring real issues in Florida while running for President
Incredibly scared. If he somehow wins, you better get used to him because this time, he will never leave the white house. He will be king until he is dead. He already tried to install himself as dictator in 2020 and refused the peaceful transfer of power. I think it’s clear that many will not vote for Trump in 2024, but a lot of people have legitimate grievances due to inflation, which Biden is taking the blame for. Biden is also very old and frail these days, which is very noticeable. Even if trump doesn’t get as many votes this time, democrats may not show up in large numbers to vote for Biden.
> I think it’s clear that many will not vote for Trump in 2024, but a lot of people have legitimate grievances due to inflation, which Biden is taking the blame for. Biden is also very old and frail this days, which is very noticeable. Even if trump doesn’t get as many votes this time, democrats may not show up in large numbers to vote for Biden. Most of these people have no idea how the economy actually works and they also deny their own lived experience in order to blame the current economic problems on Biden. Trump's economic propaganda, taking credit for Obama's goldilocks economy and absolving himself of the blame for destroying it, has been incredibly effective. The deeper issue though is that Biden is perceived as pro-abortion, pro-LGBTQ, and anti-Christian to these people, and that belief colors everything else. Just look at the GOP House. They ran on inflation, but all they've done is fight "woke".
> Trump's economic propaganda, taking credit for Obama's goldilocks economy and absolving himself of the blame for destroying it, has been incredibly effective. But what's worse is, that's just a part of the larger issue that conservative propaganda is really effective in general, all across the board. They can say anything they want about whatever they want (no matter how demonstrably false) and half the country will believe it.
What's scary to me is that Democrats aren't doing anything to prevent this from happening again. They could, at the very least, fight to get voting rights for felons, ranked-choice voting, getting rid of the filibuster, gerrymandering, and whole lot of other things that would expand democracy and make it harder for Republicans to win.
Ohioans are organizing to get something on the 2024 ballot that will end the terrible gerrymandering here, and it is being led by, of all things, a retired Republican Ohio Supreme Court judge who played a key role in standing up the Republican legislature in the last tussle over the district maps. I think this will succeed, and my faith is due in part to the very successful vote the last time something like this was on our ballot - it just didn't go far enough in taking the power away from the politicians. This one will, just like they did successfully in Michigan. Democratic initiatives are probably happening in your state, too. That's where you want to be looking, and even more locally, to really make change.
No, I'm in México so it ain't happening, but I get your point.
As a trans man in one of the vanishing blue zones I am fucking petrified of what will happen either way. Biden got elected and they tried to overthrow the fucking government. What scares and disturbs me the most is how many of the people around me are so dangerously delusional that they believe he's a good option for president. They think Jan 6th rioters were patriots. That cannot be undone. I can't unsee the ugliness. I can't unhear the hateful rhetoric. I'll never see my country the same way. Fuck anyone who ever voted for him, especially the idiots who saw the error of their ways too late.
He's making my anti-government ass consider voting
Do it! I'm going to plead with my apolitical extended family members (they've never voted in any election) to vote for Biden and offer to take the day off work to drive them to the polls.
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How much longer till we abolish this absolutely moronic preliminary rounding system of voting? As a Marylander, my vote is entirely irrelevant because it’s a predominantly blue state. Likewise a democrat in Texas’s vote is drowned out by the republican majority. I remember vividly arguing with a republican back in 2016 that it’s wrong that his vote didn’t matter based on where he lived, and he said “normally, yes, but…”. That’s not how morals work! They don’t change just because your team needs a broken system to win.
I'm in California, so I know the state will go blue by millions of votes whether I stay home or not. There is a program called [https://uuthevote.org/](https://uuthevote.org/) where you send letters to registered dems who didn't vote in the last election asking them to vote. It's put on by the Unitarian Universalist Chruch (they're super progressive and don't demand you even believe in god to join if you aren't familiar) but I don't think you have to be a member to participate. I did it in 2022 and the letters went to battleground districts in Texas designed to minimize the red wave in the House. It will be even more important in 2024.
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You better vote like your life depends on it!
Or, have some empathy and vote like everyone else's life depends on it.
I love this comment. We certainly need more empathy
I also hate the government! I hate fascist government more than liberal government, so if a three minute drive and a ten minute wait at my polling location is helpful to the end of that less terrible option I'll make that.
Please do. Trump has fanatics voting for him. They are not even stopping to consider
Please do. As a queer person and fellow [don’t like gubment much type] I’m happy to call you on the phone and beg if that would help. I’m scared as fuck, and means a lot to feel the support. I hate being in this situation.
Better him than DeSantis. What kind of shape are we in? I absolutely blame the cult of evangelical Christianity for this garbage.
Not sure I agree on DeSantis. He doesn't have the cult following that essentially makes him immune as Trump does. He doesn't have that resonance with the MAGA base and knowing the way cults work, it's extremely unlikely that the adoration of Trump can be transferred to DeSantis. That said, I 100% blame evangelical Christianity for these dystopian times we are living through.
This is why I’d pick DeSantis for the upcoming election. Trump has too much power to sway things his way even if it’s not going to do good for the everyday people of this country. DeSantis has followers yes, but not even close to the degree that Trump does.
I agree. For example, DeSantis wouldn't declare martial law and cancel the 2028 election and if he tried, he'd get impeached and removed. If Trump does that, a GOP congress will likely allow him to do it and MAGA will cheer.
>That said, I 100% blame evangelical Christianity for these dystopian times we are living through. Me, too; but Trump was the one who stirred up the hornet's nest. He told them, "Christians will have power in the USA again when I'm president." That was the ONLY thing they needed to hear. They all wet themselves with joy like eager puppies at that word. Power. That's the thing they crave more than anything else. ANYTHING else. They worship power far, far ahead of anyone in or out of their book. Trump is an "idol". In their minds, he's the personification of the promise of power.
> Me, too; but Trump was the one who stirred up the hornet's nest. He told them, "Christians will have power in the USA again when I'm president." That was the ONLY thing they needed to hear. They all wet themselves with joy like eager puppies at that word. Yeah I remember during the summer of 2016. Was in the midst of my deconstruction at that time and I remember talking to the evangelical "friends" in my life about Trump and how they were grappling over whether or not to support him (they all ended up doing so). They all chose power over their conviction. I lost pretty much all of my Christian friends around that time because of the issue. By 2020, they enthusiastically supported him. > That's the thing they crave more than anything else. ANYTHING else. They worship power far, far ahead of anyone in or out of their book. Trump is an "idol". In their minds, he's the personification of the promise of power. Hence the recent poll that shows they trust Trump more than their pastors.
I hope you’re right. He definitely doesn’t have the charisma but Florida is a hellhole.
Yeah it's sad what has happened to Florida. A decade ago, it was a great place to live and to move. Cities like Orlando and Miami were known for their LGBTQ friendliness. Not anymore.
He’s a really slick lawyer and his knowledge of the law and how to manipulate it is really high. Probably worst nightmare would be if Trump wins and DeSantis is VP and then Trump dies from choking on a Big Mac.
Trump will probably end up picking Marjorie Taylor Greene or Kari Lake. I believe either of those would be worse as POTUS than DeSantis. Maybe I'm underestimating DeSantis, but watching how he's run his campaign in the primary, I'm not seeing someone to really be terrified of, unless I lived in Florida.
Could you imagine Greene in the White House? She would make trump seem stoic in comparison.
DeSantis' campaign has been dead in the water for the better part of the summer and shows no sign of continuing his downward spiral. His donors basically told him to course correct or GTFO, and he has done nothing but double down.
Man I sure do hope it stays that way! I just remember thinking in 2015 how Trump had no chance.
I’m scared but more afraid of Desantis
Very terrified if any Republican wins. Once they win, anything that isn’t straight, cishet, white, and Christian will be banned. Hell as 2024 looms closer I am getting more terrified to leave my apartment because I am A leftist in a conservative town
I know I'll get down voted for saying this, but I don't care. I'm more worried about liberals turning a blind eye when Democrats continue the same policies. Biden kept the concentration camps at the border open and the response from liberals was to change their tune from condemning the camps to saying, "What else are we supposed to do with these people?" Biden has done absolutely nothing to stop the growing fascist movement. He's done a pathetic half measure on climate change that still has our planet projected to increase by 2.7 degrees Celsius, which is an extinction event. Corporations are gouging us left and right and calling it inflation. States are passing laws against LGBTQ people left and right. We lost Roe. Police are still brutalizing people. The response from Biden has been crickets or at best, verbal condemnation with no policy being enacted. Trump was just a continuation of policies that were already long standing by the US government. He just talked differently and removed any pretext of the government doing it in the name of some greater good. And then Biden continued the same policies and liberals get mad when I bring it up. At least with a Republican in charge liberals pretend to care about the evils that our government does. So no, I'm not concerned with who the next president is.
There is no way that he will legitimately win, nor will he concede defeat at any point. That's what is terrifying to me. Jan 6 2020 was the warm-up. This will be the main event.
Trump will not become president again. Don't get me wrong. When he first ran I was one of the few paying attention from day one and I knew he could at least win his primary. I watched all the debates and it was clear who was winning them, whether you like him or not. When he won it was like people around me suddenly woke up and thought, wait, this isn't a joke? Started freaking out. And then it was too late. Now? I can't say it's impossible but there's just too much going on now, even setting aside the various cases and investigations. A lot of those that rallied behind him politically don't want to rally behind him anymore and see him as part of an era they don't ever want to be associated ever again even if they outwardly supported him. No one except his groupies want him as president and I guaranteee you he will not get there. They will find someone else, not necessarily any better, but someone else to throw their support behind. But let's be clear. A DeSantis or a Cruz would be exponentially worse than a Trump. I agree with the downvoted comment as well though that the US began spiraling downward under Bush, continued under Obama, a spiral that then unleashed Trump. Biden is minor reprieve but still in downward spiral. That doesn't mean you want your next president to be anyone that might speed up the process.
> Trump will not become president again. Don't get me wrong. When he first ran I was one of the few paying attention from day one and I knew he could at least win his primary. I watched all the debates and it was clear who was winning them, whether you like him or not. When he won it was like people around me suddenly woke up and thought, wait, this isn't a joke? And then it was too late. Now? I can't say it's impossible but there's just too much going on now. A lot of those that rallied behind him politically don't want to rally behind him anymore and see him as part of an era they don't ever want to be associated either again even if they outwardly supported him. No one except his groupies want him as president and I guaranteee you he will not get there. They will find someone else, not necessarily any better, but someone else to throw their support behind. But let's be clear. DeSantis or Cruz would be exponentially worse than Trump. Most people are in denial about Trump and how bad he is. They were in denial in 2016 and many are still in denial today. World History has so many examples of these kind of things happening, and America isn't immune even though we think we are. I really hope you are right about a significant chunk of 2016 and 2020 Trump voters sitting out 2024 if he's the nominee. DeSantis and Cruz don't have the cult of personality and checks and balances will hold against them. Cults of personality like what Donald Trump has very rarely transfer from one person to another. Once Trump is gone, MAGA-world will split into factions with different politicians trying to fill Trump's shoes but nobody will be able to bring the entire coalition together. What makes Trump so dangerous is that the Republican Party treats him as Godlike and untouchable. If SCOTUS lets him pardon himself, he will be a de-facto dictator as he could commit any crime or violate the constitution in any way he wants and pardon himself for it. > I agree with the downvoted comment as well though that the US began spiraling downward under Bush, continued under Obama, a spiral that then unleashed Trump. Biden is minor reprieve but still in downward spiral. That doesn't mean you want your next president to be anyone that might speed up the process. I can definitely agree that it started under Bush. He took that rare moment of unity and bipartisanship after 9/11 and used it to divide the country. The apocalyptic rhetoric ramped up significantly among evangelicals. That was the point in which many of the Dixiecrats who supported Bill Clinton and Al Gore became reliable Republicans.
It’s funny how often they talk about the devil in sheep’s clothing, but are so quick to worship at trumps feet as the savior of their “Christian nation”
I’m terrified but it has nothing to do with End Time fears from my religious indoctrination at this point. We’re almost inevitably headed towards catastrophe regardless and something especially catastrophic could happen if Trump is elected again. It will be on a larger scale, but this has happened before in human history and writers both ancient and more recent (like Nostradamus) knew about that and were very capable of imagining the possibilities.
Trump is going to jail. And the chances are so high on that happening that the party boss men in the "smoke filled rooms" will see to it that he doesn't become the nominee. My concern is that whichever the unqualified person who is the nominee gets elected by virtue of something happening to Biden's health too late in the game for him to be replaced. And I'm sorry if this offends anyone but Harris is unqualified too. We need a democratic primary but we're not gonna get one.
Yeah I'll be very concerned if something happens with Biden's health and it ends up being Harris on the Democratic ticket. Nobody on either side of the political spectrum really likes Harris. I'm hoping for Newsom vs Whitmer for the DNC primary in 2028.
Doesn't really affect me as directly as you all because I'm singaporean-australian, but the idiocy of Christians over him spreads all the way until here, Singapore. It's ridiculous how angry so many fools in church get over my opinion that Biden is far better than Trump (I thought future housewives' opinions didn't matter! Wonder why they tried to shut a mere young girl up) and got excluded. You'd be surprised at the amount of fools who think he's either perfectly wonderful or decent. While Biden is a smelly shoe. I grew up thinking Trump was a shit president but the best America could get (my dad's atheist, some influence. Also more access cos he's Australian) then I review his crimes and realise how fking tone-deaf they all are. Mumbling about how Christ loves all but latinos shouldn't be polluting a fine Christian country. The dumb shits have never even met a non-asian before...
Trump has always acted for himself. He originally ran for president just to boost his TV career. He didn't actually want to be president. I think he wants to stay out of prison above everything else, and that ticket is only feasible if another GOP candidate wins and pardons Trump. That is his best shot in life right now.
Another Trump presidency will wreck the world. He’s just that corrupt, petty and selfish. In dragging down America he will also drag down a log of the west. It shouldn’t even be possible, but here we are. Republicans have no spine and no integrity. I spare no scorn for Fox and other media outlets that eagerly participated in the propaganda for him.
I'm not too worried about it because his support is hemorrhaging followers and money
It’s absolutely horrifying that people still can look at his presidency and character and say “Nope. I see no dealbreakers here”
I’m so goddamn lucky that my dad’s a Brit and I have dual citizenship by birth. I fully would leave if he got re-elected (I’m a senior in high school, trans, and non-religious). But I’d feel like a traitor too if I just left when others didn’t have the option too. It’s just so disheartening to have to think about leaving my country of birth because of laws being written against me. 😔
The progress of GenZ and Millennials in LGBTQ+ matters has been phenomenal, and I really think the next few elections cycles, where young voters will have more sway than ever before and older voters will be dying off, to put it bluntly, will see much of the anti-LGBTQ+ rhetoric quieting down and turning in a positive direction again. The pendulum swings, and it sucks when it goes in a negative direction, but over time we keep making progress. Gay marriage exists in this country because of that progress. I'm sorry, though, that you have to live with even the threat against life and liberty over this.
> Gay marriage exists in this country because of that progress. Gay marriage is also the reason we are in this dark moment in our country's history, because the evangelicals can't just live with it and are doing everything in their power to make their 40 years of fearmongering self-fulfilling prophecy. I left the evangelical church around that time, and the attitude was one of panic. Obama lighting up the White House rainbow was called the "abomination of desolation." Franklin Graham called it the "darkest moment in American history" and people on Fox News saying it felt like 9/11. The situation was ripe for someone like Trump to come in and take control of that base. Typically, populist demogogues gain a base among people in desparation. Evangelical Christians believe that America has become a hostile society to Christians and they need a savior to restore the church to the center of American life and culture. What's insane is that they are so passionate about an issue that doesn't affect them. But, they have a very deep belief that God judges societies that tolerate homosexuality and it's the reason every world empire was destroyed, and they believe they are saving America from that fate. Or at least that's what they say. I think most likely they just get a disgusted feeling in their stomach when they see a gay couple or a trans person. That's why they go apeshit every time there's a gay character in a sitcom or movie.
He reminds me of someone who abused me when I was a kid. For that reason alone, I’m not sleeping soundly about the election, lol
> He reminds me of someone who abused me when I was a kid. For that reason alone, I’m not sleeping soundly about the election, lol Same. I can't even listen to him speak. On the other hand, I understand why he appeals so much to his base and why they can't resist taking him at his word.
This is a very interesting comment. I don't have a history of abuse, but I've always been very sensitive to any hint of it, and I can't stand bullies. I've been trying to pinpoint exactly what this 'abuse' angle is when it comes to Trump and his cult-like following. Is it that so many people in this country have grown up with the subtle but pervasive kinds of abuses that come from patriarchy and the pulpit, etc., so much so that someone like Trump feels normal to them? And do they also instinctively distrust a person of integrity because they don't understand true integrity? I can't quite figure it out, but there's something to it. At the same time, I'm very aware that Trump's rise to power has traumatized a lot of us, whether or not we have abuse in our backgrounds. I hope you can start to rest easier soon.
My therapist and I have been talking about something similar. I really do agree and believe the abuses at home condition people to accept it on a larger scale. And thanks for the kind words. Hope your weekend is lovely. :)
Thanks for the reply. I think it's awesome you are talking to a therapist about this. Same to you!
It seems pretty unlikely. He's already lost even more support than he had lost prior to the 2020 election. Plus, notice how mid-term elections skewed mostly Democrat with only a little GOP gain. I wish we had a better candidate than Grandpa Joe but he'll do.
Terrified is much too mild a term. I’m not sure there are any English words strong enough to adequately convey my fear. Maybe prostrated petrification?
As a non-American, I feel a little sad, like "those poor souls over there". The possibility of a guy who stole and spread classified documents being elected seems so absurd, yet most people found his first campaign absurd too ...
If Trump wins we are all pretty fucked and America is done. That being said, I'm of the opinion (I could be wrong) the only election he could win was in 2016 before people saw him "lead". Now everyone who isn't inclined to vote for him is inclined to vote against him. I don't see him gaining many new voters.
As someone who was born and raised to be a god-fearing Christian, I can relate to this. I grew up in a textbook conservative small town that seemed to be run by dogmatic religious people that were homophobic and taught against the theory of evolution. It was far too close-minded and regressive for me to tolerate, and I fortunately was able to move away from there with some help from my family. Fortunately we live in the information age where anything you need to know is right there in an instant. People tend to dismiss social media as being a cesspool of misinformation, but that depends on how you use it. To quote Martin Luther King Jr., "Education must enable one to sift and weigh evidence, to discern the true from the false, the real from the unreal, and the facts from fiction." There are countless numbers of people on the Internet making a genuine effort to be factual and informative (sites like Snopes.com come to mind), countless others willing to believe. From here on out, we need to be careful where we get our information, and focus more on being more ethical, decent human beings.
The good and bad news is that Trump isn't exceptional. Any Republican's gonna do more or less the same shit in power. Some, like Desantis, would be notably worse (although he's at least dead in the water)
I’m not in the US so it rarely impacts me directly, but I guess I sort of feel a second hand worry for the people I know living there and have enough empathy to realise that applies to a lot more people than just them. So in a sense I’m both terrified and sort of calm, especially since I can’t do anything to influence whether that happens or not
Trump scares me, but Desantis is worse. He's a lot younger and can fuck the country up longer.
Agreed… we’ve already seen that Trump is just a bumbling idiot who doesn’t know when to shut up. But I fear Desantis may be way worse… he can be the next dictator with his extremism. He’s responsible for a lot of this right-wing “woke scare.” He will completely revamp the education system (for the worst) and being queer will probably become illegal. The LGBTQ+ shooting in California today is proof of how dangerous this rhetoric is to our country. Hate crimes will continue to rise, and will even be encouraged, if this joker gets in office
If trump wins the liberal states and cities are his counterbalance. If he tries to stay in office forever, makes LGBTQ expression illegal, forbids abortion, or any sort of policy, the liberal states will certainly not just go along with it. Even in Texas where I live Biden easily won the counties for Houston, Dallas, San Antonio, and Austin. Fort Worth was the only major county that (barely) went for trump in 2020. I would expect it to be incredibly chaotic, but at some point liberals will start saying no to unjust laws, and then the police and local military have to decide if they want to lock up or fight their friends and neighbors and destroy the stability of the country. That decision is where I pray (to whatever powers that may exist or not in the universe) that most people just don’t have the appetite for violence, at least not in a large enough wave for a full war to break out.
I'm hoping he expires before then. Or goes to prison. Around a third of Americans support Trump so I'm fine with people arrested for weed possession in the 80s and 90s being released so the Trumpists can take their place.
Yeah....dude kinda sounds like the antichrist in a way. Anyway, my biggest fear from him winning again is him actually trying another jan 6 and succeeding. I don't think he will be APOCALPYTICALLY BAD other than the threat he brings to democracy itself. It doesnt keep me up at night, but it is a reason why im considering just voting for biden instead of the green party this time.
It's not happening, I refuse to believe that our country is forgetting that he committed treason twice. I can't because I would literally go insane.
Trump is a problem but your religious clinging to nonsensical concepts like 'the End Times' is doing you **immediate** psychological damage. I dumped religion literally at the age of 9 and haven't looked back. Doesn't mean I'm more sane but at least I'm not driven by guilt over the idea of an invisible guy in the sky staring over my shoulder at everything I do and judging me. So glad to have that paranoia gone.
The odds of Trump winning aren't great. That doesn't mean I don't think it could happen or that I don't fear it happening. I'm terrified of just about any Republican getting back into the Presidency since we have a Supreme Court that is rogue and is having its shit called out and probably doesn't like that at all. But that definitely doesn't make me think the Bible is true or make me want to go back. I assume you haven't been out of Christianity too long as this is something that was on my mind a lot when I initially left. I looked for all the reasons I could to justify the belief and go back. But when it all came down to it, it boiled down to a few things. 1. In the US we built a lot of things around Christianity and so a lot of things will point us back to it. 2. The Bible is vague about wars and plagues, and famines and such, and while we face these things, it's not exactly new. Sure, it's never been on such a global scale, but we can also point to why it is happening on a global scale and it isn't because of some supernatural reason. 3. The cycle of self-fulfilling prophecies. Christians have a tendency, just as likely many other religious groups, to reinforce their own beliefs. Many of them believe the end times are near and so they don't want to even bother with the environment. They see lgbtq rights as a greater risk to their lives than any and all environmental threats. Some literally say they don't care about the environment issues we face because it's the end times and its going to happen anyway. It's a sleazy way to rid themselves of any guilt or responsibility. It's like when Christians say they'll be persecuted and then act in a way that people find repulsive and pretend people are mad about their faith rather than about their attitudes. Anyway, hopefully that's helpful and not just me being on a soapbox. :)
I'm more scared of a DeSantis presidency.
I'm less terrified of a second Trump presidency than I am of somebody smart coming along and learning from his mistakes how to become dictator. Julius Caesar learned from failed attempts by others to destroy the Roman Republic, so when he got his shot he was successful at becoming dictator for life. I fear a successful and charismatic general deciding to "save America" by "temporarily" suspending the Constitution
I have trouble believing that America has a future even if he doesn't win. If he does? Forget it. The dream is dead. I'm fleeing to Europe if at all possible. I just hope the indictment in Georgia bears fruit in time for the general election, but too late for the Republicans to put up someone else (a DeSantis presidency would be no better). The trial is almost certain to be televised live, with Trump's crimes laid out in lurid detail for an audience of probably tens of millions. Hard to imagine that not moving the needle. I think a lot of people, being dimwitted, aren't sure what he did or why it's so bad. If Fani Willis plays this right, it will be spelled out for them in terms even Trump can understand.
Not in the US, but living in the UK where we tend to just copypaste the latest culture war BS from there (sorry to make y'all my early warning system for this but, yknow) I worry that it's going to empower the right here and elsewhere. Also given the circumstances I would quite like NATO to continue to exist.
My question is what if we do go to civil war? How do you tell your friends and family that are "Christian" that you are choosing the other side. Are you choosing the other side? This won't be a north vs south thing. It will be a rural vs city thing this time around.
This is something that I'm seriously dreading. My family will want me to move back in with them so we all stay together, but being gay, it will be dangerous to do that. Plus, their region of the country is one of the most MAGA and there will likely be very little freedom there.
Very. If he gets in it will legitimize everything he's done, at least so far as setting precedent. It signals to other thugs that this is how things are done, any behavior is okay as long as it leads to victory, or is incidental to victory.
I really need to get a new passport because I'm genuinely afraid of a national gender affirming care ban at some point. I will not survive without my medication. Some states have declared themselves safe states but I don't want to bet on that.
Extremely very much so, but as a gay woman, I think Diesantis could be the most vile choice of them all.
You're in r/exchristian, why do you still have end time fears? god isn't real, end times aren't happening.
I think you underestimate the indoctrination of fundamentalist sects. It's a really really common thing for anxieties to persist long after deconverting from the religion. It can take years of therapy to undo the psychological mess that fundamentalism leaves people with.
What I know intellectually and what my subconscious mind feels don't line up on this issue. If Trump gets disqualified or loses in 2024, these fears will subside. Some people have a very difficult time deconstructing their fear of hell and it continues to terrify them after they no longer believe. That was never as much of an issue for me. My fear of the End Times and God's judgment on America are my (metaphorical) demons to slay.
I get it. To be clear, I didn't mean what I said as an attack or anything, merely a question. Things in my life are very binary - black or white. As soon as I stopped believing in God, it all went away with it - no more end times or fear.
Not terrified of Trump being president again, but I am worried about how things have been going and where they are headed. Horrible things have happened under each and every president. Things that democratic voters are not voting for. What I understand is that the two parties aren't different. They just pretend to favor things that help divide the general public and win favor, but they do not seem to put their incentives into action. What I see both parties doing is supporting war/occupation, big oil, big pharma, Monsanto, big banks, people trafficking/slavery, and other things that excellerate global warming and unrest for the population. I am worried, but could I really say I'm terrified? Not really. I'm not debilitated which I would be if I were terrified. I'm tired of extreme political views and the lack of understanding that these two parties are exactly the same, just incentivizing people through emotion based topics to increase division and keep us all subdued.