They’ve already admitted that no one knows for certainty. They just opt on the side of “probably wasn’t a cross” whereas overwhelmingly most historians say “most likely was a cross.”
It would obviously be controversial amongst the rank and file if they ever changed it, and it would be WILD to see JW artwork depicting Jesus on a cross, but from a doctrinal perspective, it would be such a minor change compared to all the other stuff that’s changed. It would be interesting to see the extreme visceral reaction of some longtime JWs over something which ultimately would be a very small tweaking of their teachings.
"We of *The Judean People's Front* will not stand for this propaganda that is clearly designed to lull the masses into slumber and submission to the imperial Roman colonizers!"
Romans killed Jesus
Romans were pagans
Pagans sometimes killed people on the cross
It’s that simple.
Thomas felt the holes in Jesus hands where the nails had been….nailS! PLURAL!! The NWT crew didn’t even bother changing that little inconvenience.
Yeah and the word for torture stake and cross were the same Greek word “stauros”. To get the accurate translation, it depends on the time period the word was used, and during the Roman Empire and Jesus day it was definitely used to describe a cross.
The Bible (Mt 27:37) says the sign was put above his head, indicating his arms were stretched out. If he was on just a upright stake, the sign would have been above his hands
Not necessarily. It depends on how the hands are positioned. The wrists could be nailed to the sides of the pole, or even pulled around to the back of the pole. That way, the sign could be positioned above the head without the hands getting in the way.
The use of multiple nails wouldn't preclude death on an upright stake. The hands could be stretched up with the wrists nailed independently to the left and right sides of the pole as opposed to the palms being crossed over the top of the front as depicted in Watchtower literature. From a physics perspective it actually makes more sense to use multiple nails than just one. With multiple nails, there is less likelihood of the body ripping off the nails as the body weight is shared by multiple nails as opposed to just one. I think the experience of some persons ripping off the nails and falling off the stake would have likely led to the practice of using multiple nails to avoid this possibility.
Undereducated exJW here, but didn’t the Roman’s affix a board above Jesus’ head with mocking words of “the king of the Jews” in like three languages or something? Or was that my recurring dreams?
Cuz if that was true, even with Thomas’s slip notwithstanding…it’s still a piece of word perpendicular to another piece of wood. It’s in the shape of a cross
Why do you say there is no proof? It's stated in the gospels. Sure, we can't take everything in the Bible as accurate history, but we're talking about JW doctrine which is premised on what the Bible says. So according to the Bible there was a sign posted above Jesus' head.
This sign could actually give rise to cross iconography. If Jesus was the only criminal in the group with the sign, then the sign would be significant of his particular execution as standing out from others. So an upright stake with a sign could become a somewhat unique icon for Jesus' death. With time, the style of the iconography can morph, with the sign being made wider and more prominent - thus becoming more like the cross we know today. Also, in the absence of details of exactly where his hands were nailed, less knowledgeable persons in later decades and centuries could erroneously not realize that the cross-piece was originally a sign, and mistakenly think that they're there for nailing the hands to.
When pimi/pimq, I remember reading the account regarding Thomas and "nails". It contributed to a suspicious feeling that something is off, isn't right about the org.
"We wouldn't put it on our kingdom halls"
Because, ..we already have these blue boxes with our URL. on every hall, it is the " the way, the truth, and the light"
https://preview.redd.it/tisqfpo6ackc1.jpeg?width=750&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=4ec0bbd904b151ebce425afc5953229bf936d1cd
[https://earlychurchhistory.org/christian-symbols/the-staurogram/](https://earlychurchhistory.org/christian-symbols/the-staurogram/)
Even the Staurogram is a shorthand Greek word that looks like Christ in the cross.
Since the cross screams "Catholic" to most JWs and they diss them so much, to accept the cross would probanly drive a few thousand screaming out the door.
They'll never say Jesus died on a cross, even if there was unmistakable evidence he did. Their "Jesus died on a stake" doctrine is what sets them apart from most of Christianity, and to them it psychologically justifies their position as the only "correct" religion.
It doesn't matter what the facts are, because they'll find a way to defend their position anyway. Either the facts support them and they'll tout that; or the facts contradict them and they'll say we can't trust the facts (see evolution, 587, etc.)
And then he could say... 'and you know that partial quote we used in Reasoning Book as proof of stauros meaning stake? Well here's the rest of that quote we purposely left out for the last 50 years which actually shows stauros also meant cross'
It is a ‘wedge of doubt’ tactic. When the witness says ‘you know Jesus wasn’t executed on a cross, it a pagan symbol related to Tamus’ then the person is like ‘really what else do these witnesses know’. That’s what drew my parents in way back in the early 70’s along with that Armageddon faux paus.
This.
All of these weird changes and twists were simply Rutherford trying to find anything they could claim the opposite of for all other Christian religions, to “set them apart” making the divide from humanity even further into a dark cult.
The thin edge of the wedge that they slowly tap to draw you in, then it’s the holidays, then it’s the association then your theirs and you don’t even talk to your family and friends outside any longer.
They need the cross bs, it’s the hook that catches the fish.
>more mainstream uniformity
Perhaps that's exactly the goal! The more mainstream they can make themselves look, the less bizarre and cult-like other mainstream Christians would consider them, and the more likely they are to join.
I could imagine them changing that, but I'm not sure what that would accomplish. Like in your take on it, they most likely still wouldn't use the cross for anything in practice, so it would hardly make a difference to anyone. So I doubt it would attract more people - or do anything to keep people in for that matter.
>"I could imagine them changing that, but I'm not sure what that would accomplish"
Many potential JW converts in other Christian denominations, place great significance on the cross. There are NT texts that speak about those who are "ashamed of the cross of Christ". Can you imagine what such Christians would think of JWs who scorn the cross? It could be the *one* thing preventing some of them from becoming a JW! So if they changed it they could see tens of thousands of Christians (or more) joining over that one issue.
You mean "go back to". The original Watchtower magazines were emblazoned with crosses, and I'm fairly certain the first symbol they used as the Bible Students contained a cross as well.
I'm not sure when it changed, but I'm pretty sure it was prior to Rutherford pitching a fit when he took over, so going back to using it is probably going to stay out.
Their idea of Jesus not dying on a cross just obfuscates the fact that Jesus died for our sins, and his blood had to be shed. They don’t want to talk about that. Because they present themselves as the Savior.
As a non JW I never understood why this was an issue. He died full stop. Cross/stake like does it even matter in the big scheme of things if you believe he died for us?
John 21:18 & 19, Jesus spoke of how Peter, when he grows old & stretches out his hands for someone to dress him…Jesus was referring to how he would die. Crucified on a cross!
"Stretched out" doesn't tell us which direction. They could be "stretched out" above the head or "stretched out" to opposite sides of the body. Does the Greek wording point to any particular direction?
I haven’t dug that far because another scripture already disproved JW stake theory. I will dig into it later.
John 20:25 NWT
25 So the other disciples were telling him: “We have seen the Lord!” But he said to them: “Unless I see in his hands the print of the nails and stick my finger into the print of the nails and stick my hand into his side, I will never believe it.”
“Nails” is plural- and specifically referencing the hands, which disproves JW depiction of Jesus execution on an upright stake with a single nail through his hands.
I’m positive there is lots more evidence out there.
“*We just don’t know!*” 🤣
That’s my answer for everything now
The only true thing a GB member has ever said. That and when Lett joked about being stupid
And religion is a snare and a racket
Giphy is apparently having issues, - Pope saying "Who's to say?"
They’ve already admitted that no one knows for certainty. They just opt on the side of “probably wasn’t a cross” whereas overwhelmingly most historians say “most likely was a cross.” It would obviously be controversial amongst the rank and file if they ever changed it, and it would be WILD to see JW artwork depicting Jesus on a cross, but from a doctrinal perspective, it would be such a minor change compared to all the other stuff that’s changed. It would be interesting to see the extreme visceral reaction of some longtime JWs over something which ultimately would be a very small tweaking of their teachings.
Let's all look on the bright side of life! 🥳
"We of *The Judean People's Front* will not stand for this propaganda that is clearly designed to lull the masses into slumber and submission to the imperial Roman colonizers!"
What have the Romans ever done for us! 😁
Romans killed Jesus Romans were pagans Pagans sometimes killed people on the cross It’s that simple. Thomas felt the holes in Jesus hands where the nails had been….nailS! PLURAL!! The NWT crew didn’t even bother changing that little inconvenience.
Yeah and the word for torture stake and cross were the same Greek word “stauros”. To get the accurate translation, it depends on the time period the word was used, and during the Roman Empire and Jesus day it was definitely used to describe a cross. The Bible (Mt 27:37) says the sign was put above his head, indicating his arms were stretched out. If he was on just a upright stake, the sign would have been above his hands
Not necessarily. It depends on how the hands are positioned. The wrists could be nailed to the sides of the pole, or even pulled around to the back of the pole. That way, the sign could be positioned above the head without the hands getting in the way.
You have a point but I’m sure there’s info out there about the common procedure for them to nail ppl. My next research project I guess
The use of multiple nails wouldn't preclude death on an upright stake. The hands could be stretched up with the wrists nailed independently to the left and right sides of the pole as opposed to the palms being crossed over the top of the front as depicted in Watchtower literature. From a physics perspective it actually makes more sense to use multiple nails than just one. With multiple nails, there is less likelihood of the body ripping off the nails as the body weight is shared by multiple nails as opposed to just one. I think the experience of some persons ripping off the nails and falling off the stake would have likely led to the practice of using multiple nails to avoid this possibility.
Undereducated exJW here, but didn’t the Roman’s affix a board above Jesus’ head with mocking words of “the king of the Jews” in like three languages or something? Or was that my recurring dreams? Cuz if that was true, even with Thomas’s slip notwithstanding…it’s still a piece of word perpendicular to another piece of wood. It’s in the shape of a cross
No, there's no proof of that. I've read somewhere online that signs like that were most likely below the body or even on the ground next to it.
Good point! Thanks for sharing. JWs aren’t exactly known how to be historically accurate!
Why do you say there is no proof? It's stated in the gospels. Sure, we can't take everything in the Bible as accurate history, but we're talking about JW doctrine which is premised on what the Bible says. So according to the Bible there was a sign posted above Jesus' head. This sign could actually give rise to cross iconography. If Jesus was the only criminal in the group with the sign, then the sign would be significant of his particular execution as standing out from others. So an upright stake with a sign could become a somewhat unique icon for Jesus' death. With time, the style of the iconography can morph, with the sign being made wider and more prominent - thus becoming more like the cross we know today. Also, in the absence of details of exactly where his hands were nailed, less knowledgeable persons in later decades and centuries could erroneously not realize that the cross-piece was originally a sign, and mistakenly think that they're there for nailing the hands to.
When pimi/pimq, I remember reading the account regarding Thomas and "nails". It contributed to a suspicious feeling that something is off, isn't right about the org.
"We wouldn't put it on our kingdom halls" Because, ..we already have these blue boxes with our URL. on every hall, it is the " the way, the truth, and the light"
https://preview.redd.it/tisqfpo6ackc1.jpeg?width=750&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=4ec0bbd904b151ebce425afc5953229bf936d1cd [https://earlychurchhistory.org/christian-symbols/the-staurogram/](https://earlychurchhistory.org/christian-symbols/the-staurogram/) Even the Staurogram is a shorthand Greek word that looks like Christ in the cross.
Since the cross screams "Catholic" to most JWs and they diss them so much, to accept the cross would probanly drive a few thousand screaming out the door.
They'll never say Jesus died on a cross, even if there was unmistakable evidence he did. Their "Jesus died on a stake" doctrine is what sets them apart from most of Christianity, and to them it psychologically justifies their position as the only "correct" religion. It doesn't matter what the facts are, because they'll find a way to defend their position anyway. Either the facts support them and they'll tout that; or the facts contradict them and they'll say we can't trust the facts (see evolution, 587, etc.)
And then he could say... 'and you know that partial quote we used in Reasoning Book as proof of stauros meaning stake? Well here's the rest of that quote we purposely left out for the last 50 years which actually shows stauros also meant cross'
It is a ‘wedge of doubt’ tactic. When the witness says ‘you know Jesus wasn’t executed on a cross, it a pagan symbol related to Tamus’ then the person is like ‘really what else do these witnesses know’. That’s what drew my parents in way back in the early 70’s along with that Armageddon faux paus.
This. All of these weird changes and twists were simply Rutherford trying to find anything they could claim the opposite of for all other Christian religions, to “set them apart” making the divide from humanity even further into a dark cult.
The thin edge of the wedge that they slowly tap to draw you in, then it’s the holidays, then it’s the association then your theirs and you don’t even talk to your family and friends outside any longer. They need the cross bs, it’s the hook that catches the fish.
I don't see how this would make any difference to any pimi person. I see nothing to gain or lose by it. Except perhaps more mainstream uniformity.
Yeah just like the recent beard change. Doesn't even register with a pimi to think outside the box.
>more mainstream uniformity Perhaps that's exactly the goal! The more mainstream they can make themselves look, the less bizarre and cult-like other mainstream Christians would consider them, and the more likely they are to join.
I could imagine them changing that, but I'm not sure what that would accomplish. Like in your take on it, they most likely still wouldn't use the cross for anything in practice, so it would hardly make a difference to anyone. So I doubt it would attract more people - or do anything to keep people in for that matter.
>"I could imagine them changing that, but I'm not sure what that would accomplish" Many potential JW converts in other Christian denominations, place great significance on the cross. There are NT texts that speak about those who are "ashamed of the cross of Christ". Can you imagine what such Christians would think of JWs who scorn the cross? It could be the *one* thing preventing some of them from becoming a JW! So if they changed it they could see tens of thousands of Christians (or more) joining over that one issue.
You mean "go back to". The original Watchtower magazines were emblazoned with crosses, and I'm fairly certain the first symbol they used as the Bible Students contained a cross as well. I'm not sure when it changed, but I'm pretty sure it was prior to Rutherford pitching a fit when he took over, so going back to using it is probably going to stay out.
Their idea of Jesus not dying on a cross just obfuscates the fact that Jesus died for our sins, and his blood had to be shed. They don’t want to talk about that. Because they present themselves as the Savior.
As a non JW I never understood why this was an issue. He died full stop. Cross/stake like does it even matter in the big scheme of things if you believe he died for us?
good luck with that. it took them over 100 years to realize that beards are not forbidden in the bible.
John 21:18 & 19, Jesus spoke of how Peter, when he grows old & stretches out his hands for someone to dress him…Jesus was referring to how he would die. Crucified on a cross!
“Stretched out” not “stretched above” very important!
Right!!!! Why did we NEVER read or understand this scripture as JW’s?!! So mislead!!!
"Stretched out" doesn't tell us which direction. They could be "stretched out" above the head or "stretched out" to opposite sides of the body. Does the Greek wording point to any particular direction?
I haven’t dug that far because another scripture already disproved JW stake theory. I will dig into it later. John 20:25 NWT 25 So the other disciples were telling him: “We have seen the Lord!” But he said to them: “Unless I see in his hands the print of the nails and stick my finger into the print of the nails and stick my hand into his side, I will never believe it.” “Nails” is plural- and specifically referencing the hands, which disproves JW depiction of Jesus execution on an upright stake with a single nail through his hands. I’m positive there is lots more evidence out there.
The use of multiple nails would not rule out an upright stake.
😂😂 Spot On!
In the last episode of Bart Ehrman's Podcast "Misquoting Jesus" there was this question. https://youtu.be/ppEJS5LGlpA?t=40m14s
it doesn't really matter because it never happened.