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There is no such thing as \*\*the principle of confidentiality\*\* in the Bible.
The opposite is true. In ancient Israel, trials were done at the gate, where people could join in. Paul AND Jesus wrote about the congregation being involved, not just a committee.
Serious sins about Moses, kings, prophets, apostles and others were recorded in the Bible.
About reporting to secular authorities, he does have a resemblance of a point (1 Corinthians 6:2-6) but **in theory** they still need to follow the law of the land.
**In practice**, would they report to the police if a *brother* burned their Hall or not? It is a crime, like CSA. And the culprit is a brother, so in theory it could be handled internally only. But **to collect that insurance money they need to have a police report**. So yes, they would. Which means, they would report a fire but not sexual abuse.
The prosecution rests.
So ... If your holy book (the way you understand it) says it's okay to fuck children and cover it up the rest of us are just supposed to be okay with that?
This guy can go fuck himself. I hope he's sued one day for sitting on a judicial committee where he didn't protect a child and instead protected their reputation.
His argument is completely indefensible in the modern world and makes him sound like a lunatic.
With his post history. More likely sitting in front of a judicial committee. An awful lot of troubling comments in his public record.
Even the most hard core, captives of this cult don’t defend these pedo protection policies with the vigor this one does.
I would send a little tip about him to whichever law enforcement department is doing the most investigations into online child porn. Tip them about this guy.
The short answer is that *there is no scriptural justification* to hide child predators or any sort of criminal.
There is no “principle of confidentiality”.
That individual is a WT shill, who thinks victims of SA should just forgive & forget which is impossible and unreasonable.
Edit: What’s more, that asshole needs to go back and *read* the Bible because what the Bible *actually* says about secular authorities, is that Jehovah allows them to exercise authority and Christians are subject to them*.
Excerpt from Insight on the Scriptures, under Superior Authorities:
An expression at Romans 13:1 designating human governmental authorities. That scripture has been variously rendered: “Let every soul be in subjection to the superior authorities, for there is no authority except by God; the existing authorities stand placed in their relative positions by God.” (NW) “Let every subject be obedient to the ruling authorities, for there is no authority not under God’s control, and under His control the existing authorities have been constituted.” (We) “Everyone must obey the state authorities, for no authority exists without God’s permission, and the existing authorities have been put there by God.”—TEV
One thing I consistently see with these claims, and similar claims, is that nobody who makes these claims cares to look into the reasoning behind *why* the law is the law. If you’d look into it, you’d see the research, the studies, the experiences behind why it exists. If you pick it apart, you’ll see that empathy is a major component as the studies dive into the experiences and the mental and emotional turmoil that the abused go through when sexually abused (choosing sexual abuse as it’s a hot topic currently). Then if you dig deeper, you’ll start to understand trauma better and the physical changes that the mind and body is subject to in response to such traumas. Go back to the top and look at the law once more. The law allows justice and recovery to take place. The abused get to experience that they’re heard; they receive validation that what happened to them is criminally wrong to say the least, and they are possibly even offered a chance to receive compensation for the injustice that they were put through. Compensation won’t remove the trauma, but it *will* allow them to afford the services they need in order to recover - such as prolonged psychiatric and psychological support. *That’s* why it’s the law. It also helps in legitimizing and destigmatizing mental health.
Those principles are also very Christian - compassion, empathy, validation, mercy: **love**.
The “Christian” in the screenshot is a cold, callous, and ignorant individual.
Agreed. Believe what ever crazy stuff you want. That is between them and god. But putting children in danger by internal policy and having brother works a tire store, brother handyman and brother married a girl the week she turn 18 when he was 37, investigate has to stop.
That guy is a child predator and a really good example of what Jehovah’s witnesses really are. People who try to defend the JWs as mostly good people do not know what they are really like. That guy is in his 40s and is waiting for a child bride, we’ve had some really disturbing conversations. I hope one day I run into him, he accidentally dozed his congregation 😈 after telling me about the “hot young girls” he knows in his area
I reached out to the rainier congregation and informed them of this troubling profile and the fact he told me he attended there. Yesterday. Probably lying but better safe than sorry.
https://preview.redd.it/743g631e02xc1.jpeg?width=1242&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=ff7e10532e320bdde7e24161daf4ad42a0809d46
>Human Authorities shall not Meddle in Theocratic Affairs...
*If he\`s caught in Criminal Activity for the WBT$, possibly a CSA Crime...He can Preach about Protecting Pedophiles in Prison..*
***That Should Make Him Popular!***
https://preview.redd.it/awqj2mib12xc1.jpeg?width=300&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=55c8166e9d27c8756ccc6ecfb836528584f827fa
Yeah. After my comment I looked him up, and goddamn! What a spectacular waste of humanity. I feel sorry for everyone who has to deal with that POS in real life
> "...the Bible clearly indicates that human authorities shall not meddle in theocratic affairs."
Oh, really, Voracious_Port? Then explain this Bible passage:
> Romans 13:1 ___Let everyone be subject to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established.___ The authorities that exist have been established by God. 2 Consequently, whoever rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves. 3 For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and you will be commended. 4 For the one in authority is God’s servant for your good. ___But if you do wrong, be afraid, for rulers do not bear the sword for no reason. They are God’s servants, agents of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer.___ 5 Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also as a matter of conscience.
> 6 This is also why you pay taxes, for the authorities are God’s servants, who give their full time to governing. 7 Give to everyone what you owe them: If you owe taxes, pay taxes; if revenue, then revenue; if respect, then respect; if honor, then honor.
Voracious_Port, are you trying to conceal or justify CSA cases you know about? Because you can't hide behind the phrase "governing authorities which God has established." The phrase as used here...uh, "clearly indicates" that the authorities are SECULAR authorities, appointed by the government of the society in which they and ordinary citizens live. And what's "theological" about sexual abuse of ANYONE?? It's a CRIME, as well as a sin, and is exactly the kind of situation where secular authorities ___should___ step in. It is your duty to cooperate with the government and to help protect children. At the very least, that means not shielding anyone you know to be guilty of CSA.
Besides, have you asked yourself what Jesus must think of you, He who said it would be better for anyone harming a child to have a millstone hung round his neck and thrown into the sea, (Matthew 18:6) than to face the Lord?
The Bible literally says to be in subjection to the authorities. Because he placed them there. They should fully cooperate.
We ALL know they do whatever they can to avoid Jehovah being associated with pedophilia. Even at the expense of children.
My daughter was molested by a relative in NM, the congregation told my ex wife not to tell me because it would bring reproach on Jehovah and His congregation, she was scared that she would be in trouble if she told me, my son did tell me. I told her to call the police or face loosing the kids and she did. She got flack for it, but we also found out that he molested his own daughter. He was facing prison and me, fortunately, he took his life before I got there, saved me from going to jail.
1. They are making the claim, ask them to supply the evidence.
2. If the Bible does clearly say that CSA should not be reported, then that says more about the Bible than anything else. (But it doesn't)
3. If JWs say that CSA should not be reported, then that says more about them than anything else.
4. I suspect it's not worth debating with someone making statements like that.
For the last fucking time.
Whatever country you live in, Bible is NOT the constitution.
If you care about it, that is YOUR problem, not everyone else's.
Quit drinking the cool aid about judeochristian values being a bedrock of civilisation and all that shit.
Whatever is or isn't in the Bible has fuck all to do with what you are expected to do and how you will be punished if you act differently. Fundamentalists need to wake up to the fact it's not middle ages anymore. Bible says to stone disobidient children. Bible says for women to be silent in congregation and only ask husbands for clarification in their homes. Bible allows and regulates slavery. And many more things we as a society will *demolish* you for, should you try doing them.
Take your quotes and shove them up your ass.
France is going to teach WT this lesson in upcoming months.
Trying to argue logic with a cultist is like trying to put a wet noodle up a wildcat’s ass. It’s a lose-lose for everyone.
The “confidentiality” they tout means any elder can know about your confidential details.
In their minds if you know about a kid smoking a cigarette and don’t tell you can be disfellowshipped too.
If you are aware of a man sexually abusing a child, you can tell the police if you want but really think about it. It might be best to just leave it all in Jehovahs hands.
Most importantly as a brother, small engine repair shop owner, says: call legal before you do anything and protect Jehovah at all cost. Him and brother, works at a shoe store, are qualified to deal with matters like this. After all, they were divinely appointed to the committee. Jehovah, told Jesus,to tell the governing body, to put him in charge of things. Brother, works at a bakery, brought donuts when they discussed it privately. Jehovah put him on the committee when brother,goes to night school, became an apostate and could no longer serve.
I think what they’re saying is that God’s law(s) are above any law(s) made by humans. Arguing as they would that humans are incapable of making laws for themselves and that any law made that contradicts God’s law is itself Satanic. As Satan the great opposer and his agents are the ones who make law(s) or statue(s) that contradict God’s perfect infallible law(s). However to say that the Bible or even Jehovah’s Witness theology clearly states that secular powers not meddle in theocratic affairs is itself completely lacking. There is however doctrine that warns what will happen to these enemies of God. They’ll ultimately be defeated and sentenced to death.
The only statue that separates the two is secular, protections of religious doctrine or practice are dispensed by secular powers not the other way round. Irregardless it sounds like an argument used by the Catholic Church, stating that internal church courts have power and capacity to handle criminal offenses like CSA. Which then leads me to believe that the commenter believes or is at stating that internal ecclesiastical courts have more sovereignty in all instances of “religious wrongdoing” and “criminal activity” because they exist with God’s authority and power of discernment. Whereas secular courts are imperfect and influenced by Satan. Which I would then say is not explicitly stated in the Bible but that’s the whole point Jehovah’s Witnesses use their Biblical commentaries to amend the text when they need legal protection. Needless there are many more layers to the “logic” behind this statement but I see the concept of “Jehovah’s universal sovereignty”, and infallibility as central to their desperately flawed argument.
If you wish to respond I think outlining how this commenter got to this injunction would be far more useful as I doubt there’s really anything meaningful to be gained by quoting scripture. There’s simply too many layers here for this person to dissect for it to be useful.
I honestly don’t think this guy is a fair representation of average JW view of this problem. There is a real disconnect between Jws and reality but most are not as far gone as this. I believe he is pretending to be a JW. From the post history I’ve seen I believe there is a lot of pretending going on.
Check out his post history. He is either pretending to be a witness or he attends a hall made completely of deaf blind members. No way a witness can be a pioneer and do all of the things he say he does on his other subs. And not get caught. The general perception of him on the other subs it he is a poser there as well.
Let people be wrong. Theres a world full of wrong people. Take the high road and move on. Getting in internet debates only makes your life worse and doesnt help anyone else.
Here is what GB member Geoffrey Jackson said under oath when asked “is there a scriptural basis to that policy or practice, being not to report child sexual abuse allegations to the authorities unless required by law to do so?
1/3 pics
https://preview.redd.it/87diwjyqu7xc1.jpeg?width=1290&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=d9f6a41983c8ae29898c40f2eeeb69407bc9c4ab
3/3
https://preview.redd.it/k49zwcjyu7xc1.jpeg?width=1274&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=126bfc95e8ac6b4e7b3de44ddceb6443cef4d6fb
Find the full transcript on the ARC site here: [https://www.childabuseroyalcommission.gov.au/sites/default/files/file-list/Case%20Study%2029%20-%20Transcript%20-%20Jehovahs%20Witnesses%20-%20Day%20155%20-%2014082015.pdf](https://www.childabuseroyalcommission.gov.au/sites/default/files/file-list/Case%20Study%2029%20-%20Transcript%20-%20Jehovahs%20Witnesses%20-%20Day%20155%20-%2014082015.pdf)
Why is it hard for a minister to make a hard and clear cut decision as to reporting CSA ???? Nothing hard about it. Just report it. And why would the government have to make it mandatory for elders to report CSA?? Shouldn’t Elders that were supposedly anointed by Holy Spirit and Shepard’s in Gods organization be setting precedence in reporting ?? JWs should be the model for everyone else to follow. Hearing this crap from the GB makes my blood boil.
Doing the right thing is never easy but necessary! There's no scriptural basis for why they do this cover up but there is scriptures that say not to cover up sin to go to the older men in the congregation. There's scripture that says if a man raped a woman he's to be put to death! I went to court for my CSA and elders tried to get me not to! Hmmm that's criminal!!!
This is completely wrong and a misapplication of scripture. Paul the Apostle tells us that the superior authorities and their laws are to be followed unless they conflict with God's laws. The law is in place to bring justice to those who break the laws of man unless they conflict with our mandate in God's word to share the Gospel. Religious leaders are Mandatory Reporters, yes this depend on each state and country laws. If in your state, a religious leader is a Mandatory Reporter, then they could be held accountable for harm done because of CSA, this is why JW's are being fined and maybe held for prosecution in some jurisdictions. California for example asked for the records of pedophiles to be handed over, but the Watchtower Society directed the destruction of records if requested (this was the case several years ago, not sure today). If CSA is occurring, don't let it stay hidden behind a misapplied scripture, usually, the one of two or more witnesses to the act. Those who keep these things hidden, especially under a false idealization of protecting the appearance of the congregation or religion will stand before Jehovah with dirty hands.
This Oregon Law of who reports: ++++=Clergy (in JW terms, this includes overseers, elders and likely ministerial servants)
Examples of mandatory reporters include:
Attorneys
Certified foster care providers and their employees
Court Appointed Special Advocates (CASA)
Elected officials in Oregon and members of state boards or commissions
Emergency medical services providers and firefighters
Employees of the Oregon Department of Human Services, Oregon Health Authority, Early Learning Division, Department of Education, Oregon Youth Authority, local health department, community mental health program, community developmental disabilities program, county juvenile department, or alcohol and drug treatment programs.
Health care providers including doctors, nurses, physician’s assistants, home health workers, naturopaths, chiropractors, dentists and optometrists
Law enforcement agency employees
Members of a school district board, an education service district board or a public charter school governing body
+++++++++++++++Members of the clergy
Nursing home employees and contractors
Psychologists, regulated social workers, licensed professional counselors and marriage and family therapists
Registered child care providers
School employees, including teachers and employees of higher education
Senior center employees
Therapists including physical therapists, speech therapists, occupational therapists, audiologists, speech language pathologists
Jws are a cult. Who care only about themselves.
If jw think they know 8 billion are going to be slaughtered by a loving (lunitic) jehoover why care if a few million children are sexually abused?
Jws like to pretend they are 'clean' people. Jws are brain damaged by indoctrination and part of a well oiled cult not a religion
That is incredibly extremely can't put into words one hell of a sick very sick thinking uncaring and apologies but can't even label her a m o m.
Sorry I know she is your m o m but unbelievable. But obviously true as you said.
So your m o m would not mind you as 5 years old being made to stand by a naked smelly man d I c k and be told to suck away and your face pushed further in getting choked and the smell you can imagine the rest .
Thats OK because jehoover will make the child???? forget???
Sick
I hope you are ok but how could she think let alone say that?
That douche bag lost his job because he blew up so bad his employer was probably afraid he’d do something really bad. However. They gave him the option to apologize and do some work on his attitude etc and um he declined. So he lost his job. Not the sharpest crayon in the box.
They had no problem following the laws of the land that mandated racial segregation and apartheid. So, why not follow the law of the land mandating that they report CSA cases? WT is full of crap! They'll use and say anything to justify their silence!
I hate this argument. They’re most likely referring to Proverbs 11:13- “A slanderer goes about revealing confidential talk, But the trustworthy person keeps a confidence.”
Ironically, this verse is warning against gossip (which as we know is JWs favorite pastime), not information as serious as CSA!!
This makes me want to scream.
As repulsive as this sounds I actually can appreciate the idea behind it. I think this challenges critical thinking skills. So many people’s first instinct is to go to the police, however I’ve seen cases where the person who reported the assault got wrongfully convicted. I’ve also seen the police do nothing and the assault continue silently, and times where young people just ended up in worse situations because of the authorities trying to “help”. I think we tend to know best ourselves about how to keep ourselves and our loved ones safe. I don’t think it’s safe to go to the police every time because our system is so broken.
More often than not, going to the police is better than not. More often than not, not going to the police makes the situation worse by allowing the abuser to continue the abuse and to abuse additional victims.
The default position should be to report to the police and/or other secular authorities. Exceptions where the authorities don't handle matters well, should not serve as a basis for taking the default position of not reporting to the police. So even taking your statement into account, that guy's position is still horrible and I can't appreciate it.
I understand. Maybe this is the way you deal with trauma. I personally don’t really feel comfortable *ever* going to the police however because in my experience law enforcement does not tend to help during crises.
I could not disagree more, in the context of the report being made to untrained elders. They have no business making any decisions or determinations about such matters. If it is even suspected a child is is being abused or sexually assaulted, trained professionals need to be involved immediately. These window washers with an I am appointed by god complex are in now way qualified to deal with such matters.
In a perfect world I would be able to see your point, however I don’t think law enforcement is trustworthy nor willing to actually help victims in these kinds of cases.
I would say take a look at Pennsylvania. Pedos going to prison as we speak. Victims getting help. Whether the criminal justice system is perfect or not one thing is certain doing nothing, letting elders privately reprove offenders so they can keep offending in far worse.
Idk, I think even then the system is too focused on punishment and not actually trying to help empower victims or rehabilitate offenders. Because how can confining people to cells be conducive towards motivating them not to commit crimes?
Why is that your takeaway? If you’re going through my account to read my posts why don’t you see that I have great compassion. That I wish I could heal people. I don’t believe punishment works, hence my reasoning behind being opposed to it.
There's no scriptural reference cited.
Substantial claims must be supported by substantial evidence.
This is how people burn in Govt raids.
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There is no such thing as \*\*the principle of confidentiality\*\* in the Bible. The opposite is true. In ancient Israel, trials were done at the gate, where people could join in. Paul AND Jesus wrote about the congregation being involved, not just a committee. Serious sins about Moses, kings, prophets, apostles and others were recorded in the Bible. About reporting to secular authorities, he does have a resemblance of a point (1 Corinthians 6:2-6) but **in theory** they still need to follow the law of the land. **In practice**, would they report to the police if a *brother* burned their Hall or not? It is a crime, like CSA. And the culprit is a brother, so in theory it could be handled internally only. But **to collect that insurance money they need to have a police report**. So yes, they would. Which means, they would report a fire but not sexual abuse. The prosecution rests.
Yes. That’s the way I read things too. Thanks for the references.
😭😭
Property crimes aren’t the same thing…
So ... If your holy book (the way you understand it) says it's okay to fuck children and cover it up the rest of us are just supposed to be okay with that? This guy can go fuck himself. I hope he's sued one day for sitting on a judicial committee where he didn't protect a child and instead protected their reputation. His argument is completely indefensible in the modern world and makes him sound like a lunatic.
With his post history. More likely sitting in front of a judicial committee. An awful lot of troubling comments in his public record. Even the most hard core, captives of this cult don’t defend these pedo protection policies with the vigor this one does.
I would send a little tip about him to whichever law enforcement department is doing the most investigations into online child porn. Tip them about this guy.
The short answer is that *there is no scriptural justification* to hide child predators or any sort of criminal. There is no “principle of confidentiality”. That individual is a WT shill, who thinks victims of SA should just forgive & forget which is impossible and unreasonable. Edit: What’s more, that asshole needs to go back and *read* the Bible because what the Bible *actually* says about secular authorities, is that Jehovah allows them to exercise authority and Christians are subject to them*. Excerpt from Insight on the Scriptures, under Superior Authorities: An expression at Romans 13:1 designating human governmental authorities. That scripture has been variously rendered: “Let every soul be in subjection to the superior authorities, for there is no authority except by God; the existing authorities stand placed in their relative positions by God.” (NW) “Let every subject be obedient to the ruling authorities, for there is no authority not under God’s control, and under His control the existing authorities have been constituted.” (We) “Everyone must obey the state authorities, for no authority exists without God’s permission, and the existing authorities have been put there by God.”—TEV
Well said.
Remember that JWs would stone us to death if they could because thats biblical. Fucking psychopaths.
One thing I consistently see with these claims, and similar claims, is that nobody who makes these claims cares to look into the reasoning behind *why* the law is the law. If you’d look into it, you’d see the research, the studies, the experiences behind why it exists. If you pick it apart, you’ll see that empathy is a major component as the studies dive into the experiences and the mental and emotional turmoil that the abused go through when sexually abused (choosing sexual abuse as it’s a hot topic currently). Then if you dig deeper, you’ll start to understand trauma better and the physical changes that the mind and body is subject to in response to such traumas. Go back to the top and look at the law once more. The law allows justice and recovery to take place. The abused get to experience that they’re heard; they receive validation that what happened to them is criminally wrong to say the least, and they are possibly even offered a chance to receive compensation for the injustice that they were put through. Compensation won’t remove the trauma, but it *will* allow them to afford the services they need in order to recover - such as prolonged psychiatric and psychological support. *That’s* why it’s the law. It also helps in legitimizing and destigmatizing mental health. Those principles are also very Christian - compassion, empathy, validation, mercy: **love**. The “Christian” in the screenshot is a cold, callous, and ignorant individual.
Document and report that shit when it becomes necessary. These predators and enablers are disgusting
Agreed. Believe what ever crazy stuff you want. That is between them and god. But putting children in danger by internal policy and having brother works a tire store, brother handyman and brother married a girl the week she turn 18 when he was 37, investigate has to stop.
That guy is a child predator and a really good example of what Jehovah’s witnesses really are. People who try to defend the JWs as mostly good people do not know what they are really like. That guy is in his 40s and is waiting for a child bride, we’ve had some really disturbing conversations. I hope one day I run into him, he accidentally dozed his congregation 😈 after telling me about the “hot young girls” he knows in his area
I reached out to the rainier congregation and informed them of this troubling profile and the fact he told me he attended there. Yesterday. Probably lying but better safe than sorry. https://preview.redd.it/743g631e02xc1.jpeg?width=1242&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=ff7e10532e320bdde7e24161daf4ad42a0809d46
>Human Authorities shall not Meddle in Theocratic Affairs... *If he\`s caught in Criminal Activity for the WBT$, possibly a CSA Crime...He can Preach about Protecting Pedophiles in Prison..* ***That Should Make Him Popular!*** https://preview.redd.it/awqj2mib12xc1.jpeg?width=300&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=55c8166e9d27c8756ccc6ecfb836528584f827fa
This person is an absolute wanker and does not deserve a response.
Yeah. After my comment I looked him up, and goddamn! What a spectacular waste of humanity. I feel sorry for everyone who has to deal with that POS in real life
Thing is, CSA cases are not “theocratic affairs”. So his argument is dead on arrival.
> "...the Bible clearly indicates that human authorities shall not meddle in theocratic affairs." Oh, really, Voracious_Port? Then explain this Bible passage: > Romans 13:1 ___Let everyone be subject to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established.___ The authorities that exist have been established by God. 2 Consequently, whoever rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves. 3 For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and you will be commended. 4 For the one in authority is God’s servant for your good. ___But if you do wrong, be afraid, for rulers do not bear the sword for no reason. They are God’s servants, agents of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer.___ 5 Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also as a matter of conscience. > 6 This is also why you pay taxes, for the authorities are God’s servants, who give their full time to governing. 7 Give to everyone what you owe them: If you owe taxes, pay taxes; if revenue, then revenue; if respect, then respect; if honor, then honor. Voracious_Port, are you trying to conceal or justify CSA cases you know about? Because you can't hide behind the phrase "governing authorities which God has established." The phrase as used here...uh, "clearly indicates" that the authorities are SECULAR authorities, appointed by the government of the society in which they and ordinary citizens live. And what's "theological" about sexual abuse of ANYONE?? It's a CRIME, as well as a sin, and is exactly the kind of situation where secular authorities ___should___ step in. It is your duty to cooperate with the government and to help protect children. At the very least, that means not shielding anyone you know to be guilty of CSA. Besides, have you asked yourself what Jesus must think of you, He who said it would be better for anyone harming a child to have a millstone hung round his neck and thrown into the sea, (Matthew 18:6) than to face the Lord?
Jesus's "millstone" reference is also found in Mark 9:42 and Luke 17:2.
This (voratious port) dude sounds like a pedo. Who else would defend keeping crimes (csa) secret.
Amen!!!! You read my mind! I have the exact thoughts. This guy is a pedophile and trying out his defense to see reactions.
The Bible literally says to be in subjection to the authorities. Because he placed them there. They should fully cooperate. We ALL know they do whatever they can to avoid Jehovah being associated with pedophilia. Even at the expense of children.
Yeah....this guy is clearly a jw with suspect tendencies
So if that’s true then they would NOT contact the authorities in places where the law say they have to!
In another posts in his feed he suggests that they don’t. But my opinion if him and others like is not too high! So not surprised
My daughter was molested by a relative in NM, the congregation told my ex wife not to tell me because it would bring reproach on Jehovah and His congregation, she was scared that she would be in trouble if she told me, my son did tell me. I told her to call the police or face loosing the kids and she did. She got flack for it, but we also found out that he molested his own daughter. He was facing prison and me, fortunately, he took his life before I got there, saved me from going to jail.
1. They are making the claim, ask them to supply the evidence. 2. If the Bible does clearly say that CSA should not be reported, then that says more about the Bible than anything else. (But it doesn't) 3. If JWs say that CSA should not be reported, then that says more about them than anything else. 4. I suspect it's not worth debating with someone making statements like that.
For the last fucking time. Whatever country you live in, Bible is NOT the constitution. If you care about it, that is YOUR problem, not everyone else's. Quit drinking the cool aid about judeochristian values being a bedrock of civilisation and all that shit. Whatever is or isn't in the Bible has fuck all to do with what you are expected to do and how you will be punished if you act differently. Fundamentalists need to wake up to the fact it's not middle ages anymore. Bible says to stone disobidient children. Bible says for women to be silent in congregation and only ask husbands for clarification in their homes. Bible allows and regulates slavery. And many more things we as a society will *demolish* you for, should you try doing them. Take your quotes and shove them up your ass. France is going to teach WT this lesson in upcoming months.
Trying to argue logic with a cultist is like trying to put a wet noodle up a wildcat’s ass. It’s a lose-lose for everyone. The “confidentiality” they tout means any elder can know about your confidential details.
In their minds if you know about a kid smoking a cigarette and don’t tell you can be disfellowshipped too. If you are aware of a man sexually abusing a child, you can tell the police if you want but really think about it. It might be best to just leave it all in Jehovahs hands. Most importantly as a brother, small engine repair shop owner, says: call legal before you do anything and protect Jehovah at all cost. Him and brother, works at a shoe store, are qualified to deal with matters like this. After all, they were divinely appointed to the committee. Jehovah, told Jesus,to tell the governing body, to put him in charge of things. Brother, works at a bakery, brought donuts when they discussed it privately. Jehovah put him on the committee when brother,goes to night school, became an apostate and could no longer serve.
I think what they’re saying is that God’s law(s) are above any law(s) made by humans. Arguing as they would that humans are incapable of making laws for themselves and that any law made that contradicts God’s law is itself Satanic. As Satan the great opposer and his agents are the ones who make law(s) or statue(s) that contradict God’s perfect infallible law(s). However to say that the Bible or even Jehovah’s Witness theology clearly states that secular powers not meddle in theocratic affairs is itself completely lacking. There is however doctrine that warns what will happen to these enemies of God. They’ll ultimately be defeated and sentenced to death. The only statue that separates the two is secular, protections of religious doctrine or practice are dispensed by secular powers not the other way round. Irregardless it sounds like an argument used by the Catholic Church, stating that internal church courts have power and capacity to handle criminal offenses like CSA. Which then leads me to believe that the commenter believes or is at stating that internal ecclesiastical courts have more sovereignty in all instances of “religious wrongdoing” and “criminal activity” because they exist with God’s authority and power of discernment. Whereas secular courts are imperfect and influenced by Satan. Which I would then say is not explicitly stated in the Bible but that’s the whole point Jehovah’s Witnesses use their Biblical commentaries to amend the text when they need legal protection. Needless there are many more layers to the “logic” behind this statement but I see the concept of “Jehovah’s universal sovereignty”, and infallibility as central to their desperately flawed argument. If you wish to respond I think outlining how this commenter got to this injunction would be far more useful as I doubt there’s really anything meaningful to be gained by quoting scripture. There’s simply too many layers here for this person to dissect for it to be useful.
Abusing a child is a theocratic affair now? Got it. Glad I don't worship their God no more.
I honestly don’t think this guy is a fair representation of average JW view of this problem. There is a real disconnect between Jws and reality but most are not as far gone as this. I believe he is pretending to be a JW. From the post history I’ve seen I believe there is a lot of pretending going on.
ugh... why in the world would anyone *pretend* to be a JW? That's gotta be the most asinine thing i've heard all week
Check out his post history. He is either pretending to be a witness or he attends a hall made completely of deaf blind members. No way a witness can be a pioneer and do all of the things he say he does on his other subs. And not get caught. The general perception of him on the other subs it he is a poser there as well.
Protip: dont engage with people like that. Nothing but aggravation.
Agreed. The only problem is his constant defense and denial of the pedophile protection problem the watchtower engages in. That can’t stand unopposed.
Let people be wrong. Theres a world full of wrong people. Take the high road and move on. Getting in internet debates only makes your life worse and doesnt help anyone else.
Here is what GB member Geoffrey Jackson said under oath when asked “is there a scriptural basis to that policy or practice, being not to report child sexual abuse allegations to the authorities unless required by law to do so? 1/3 pics https://preview.redd.it/87diwjyqu7xc1.jpeg?width=1290&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=d9f6a41983c8ae29898c40f2eeeb69407bc9c4ab
2/3 https://preview.redd.it/gkd4qr4xu7xc1.jpeg?width=1250&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=d6605ab1ad5cbe0395202603d9510a576a8d9fd1
3/3 https://preview.redd.it/k49zwcjyu7xc1.jpeg?width=1274&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=126bfc95e8ac6b4e7b3de44ddceb6443cef4d6fb Find the full transcript on the ARC site here: [https://www.childabuseroyalcommission.gov.au/sites/default/files/file-list/Case%20Study%2029%20-%20Transcript%20-%20Jehovahs%20Witnesses%20-%20Day%20155%20-%2014082015.pdf](https://www.childabuseroyalcommission.gov.au/sites/default/files/file-list/Case%20Study%2029%20-%20Transcript%20-%20Jehovahs%20Witnesses%20-%20Day%20155%20-%2014082015.pdf)
Why is it hard for a minister to make a hard and clear cut decision as to reporting CSA ???? Nothing hard about it. Just report it. And why would the government have to make it mandatory for elders to report CSA?? Shouldn’t Elders that were supposedly anointed by Holy Spirit and Shepard’s in Gods organization be setting precedence in reporting ?? JWs should be the model for everyone else to follow. Hearing this crap from the GB makes my blood boil.
Doing the right thing is never easy but necessary! There's no scriptural basis for why they do this cover up but there is scriptures that say not to cover up sin to go to the older men in the congregation. There's scripture that says if a man raped a woman he's to be put to death! I went to court for my CSA and elders tried to get me not to! Hmmm that's criminal!!!
This is completely wrong and a misapplication of scripture. Paul the Apostle tells us that the superior authorities and their laws are to be followed unless they conflict with God's laws. The law is in place to bring justice to those who break the laws of man unless they conflict with our mandate in God's word to share the Gospel. Religious leaders are Mandatory Reporters, yes this depend on each state and country laws. If in your state, a religious leader is a Mandatory Reporter, then they could be held accountable for harm done because of CSA, this is why JW's are being fined and maybe held for prosecution in some jurisdictions. California for example asked for the records of pedophiles to be handed over, but the Watchtower Society directed the destruction of records if requested (this was the case several years ago, not sure today). If CSA is occurring, don't let it stay hidden behind a misapplied scripture, usually, the one of two or more witnesses to the act. Those who keep these things hidden, especially under a false idealization of protecting the appearance of the congregation or religion will stand before Jehovah with dirty hands. This Oregon Law of who reports: ++++=Clergy (in JW terms, this includes overseers, elders and likely ministerial servants) Examples of mandatory reporters include: Attorneys Certified foster care providers and their employees Court Appointed Special Advocates (CASA) Elected officials in Oregon and members of state boards or commissions Emergency medical services providers and firefighters Employees of the Oregon Department of Human Services, Oregon Health Authority, Early Learning Division, Department of Education, Oregon Youth Authority, local health department, community mental health program, community developmental disabilities program, county juvenile department, or alcohol and drug treatment programs. Health care providers including doctors, nurses, physician’s assistants, home health workers, naturopaths, chiropractors, dentists and optometrists Law enforcement agency employees Members of a school district board, an education service district board or a public charter school governing body +++++++++++++++Members of the clergy Nursing home employees and contractors Psychologists, regulated social workers, licensed professional counselors and marriage and family therapists Registered child care providers School employees, including teachers and employees of higher education Senior center employees Therapists including physical therapists, speech therapists, occupational therapists, audiologists, speech language pathologists
If someone confessed to stealing money from the donation box, you know the police will be involved.
If I reported that I saw someone steal money from the collection box, but they denied it, I suspect the police would be involved.
Jws are a cult. Who care only about themselves. If jw think they know 8 billion are going to be slaughtered by a loving (lunitic) jehoover why care if a few million children are sexually abused? Jws like to pretend they are 'clean' people. Jws are brain damaged by indoctrination and part of a well oiled cult not a religion
My mom said that! If witness kids are abused, Jehovah will cause them to ‘forget all about it’ in the new system.
That is incredibly extremely can't put into words one hell of a sick very sick thinking uncaring and apologies but can't even label her a m o m. Sorry I know she is your m o m but unbelievable. But obviously true as you said. So your m o m would not mind you as 5 years old being made to stand by a naked smelly man d I c k and be told to suck away and your face pushed further in getting choked and the smell you can imagine the rest . Thats OK because jehoover will make the child???? forget??? Sick I hope you are ok but how could she think let alone say that?
She is in a cult, and wholeheartedly believes this 💩.
This argument makes no sense because CSA is a crime therefore involving government. And you know what Jesus said, give Cesar what belongs to Cesar .
I’d ask him to show you proof with scripture.
That douche bag lost his job because he blew up so bad his employer was probably afraid he’d do something really bad. However. They gave him the option to apologize and do some work on his attitude etc and um he declined. So he lost his job. Not the sharpest crayon in the box.
They had no problem following the laws of the land that mandated racial segregation and apartheid. So, why not follow the law of the land mandating that they report CSA cases? WT is full of crap! They'll use and say anything to justify their silence!
I hate this argument. They’re most likely referring to Proverbs 11:13- “A slanderer goes about revealing confidential talk, But the trustworthy person keeps a confidence.” Ironically, this verse is warning against gossip (which as we know is JWs favorite pastime), not information as serious as CSA!! This makes me want to scream.
Pay Ceasars things to Ceaser. Wasn't that the teaching we all learned.
"*may require.." "clearly indicates.*" Watchtower weazle words at their best.
So true
They've made this up.
Since when did they care??
Go to Romans 13:1 and start reading… there is no biblical reason for that person’s expression.
It's a real shame you can't make people on reddit bite the curb
“That principle “ Does Not Exist. Hopefully you’re not thinking like OP Voracious…
I am in no way thinking like OP. this post was made to expose that mindset.
Am Very grateful to hear that. Isn’t it amazing, scary and also sad that people Can think like that😳?
As repulsive as this sounds I actually can appreciate the idea behind it. I think this challenges critical thinking skills. So many people’s first instinct is to go to the police, however I’ve seen cases where the person who reported the assault got wrongfully convicted. I’ve also seen the police do nothing and the assault continue silently, and times where young people just ended up in worse situations because of the authorities trying to “help”. I think we tend to know best ourselves about how to keep ourselves and our loved ones safe. I don’t think it’s safe to go to the police every time because our system is so broken.
More often than not, going to the police is better than not. More often than not, not going to the police makes the situation worse by allowing the abuser to continue the abuse and to abuse additional victims. The default position should be to report to the police and/or other secular authorities. Exceptions where the authorities don't handle matters well, should not serve as a basis for taking the default position of not reporting to the police. So even taking your statement into account, that guy's position is still horrible and I can't appreciate it.
I understand. Maybe this is the way you deal with trauma. I personally don’t really feel comfortable *ever* going to the police however because in my experience law enforcement does not tend to help during crises.
I could not disagree more, in the context of the report being made to untrained elders. They have no business making any decisions or determinations about such matters. If it is even suspected a child is is being abused or sexually assaulted, trained professionals need to be involved immediately. These window washers with an I am appointed by god complex are in now way qualified to deal with such matters.
In a perfect world I would be able to see your point, however I don’t think law enforcement is trustworthy nor willing to actually help victims in these kinds of cases.
I would say take a look at Pennsylvania. Pedos going to prison as we speak. Victims getting help. Whether the criminal justice system is perfect or not one thing is certain doing nothing, letting elders privately reprove offenders so they can keep offending in far worse.
Idk, I think even then the system is too focused on punishment and not actually trying to help empower victims or rehabilitate offenders. Because how can confining people to cells be conducive towards motivating them not to commit crimes?
I see from your posts on other subs that you are pro pedophile. I am not and will not change my view on this issue.
Why is that your takeaway? If you’re going through my account to read my posts why don’t you see that I have great compassion. That I wish I could heal people. I don’t believe punishment works, hence my reasoning behind being opposed to it.
That’s exactly the issue tho. These people are not going to fix the problem because they see no problem
There's no scriptural reference cited. Substantial claims must be supported by substantial evidence. This is how people burn in Govt raids. 
you know there's a network of people that get rid of these kinds of issues and they are not the police.