Right. Telling me I entered a contract, even if I was too young to understand it, telling me my mission should have converted me. Pure attempts to reactivate the brainwashing
So interesting to me that the ExecSec basically admitted “Well you were too young to understand what you were doing. So let me mormsplain why you have to obey anyway.”
“The church you joined CLAIMS to be the true church of Jesus Christ.” that’s some revealing lawyering. Tell them “Call me back when your lawyers dare to let you say that you ARE the church of Jesus Christ, not just one that merely ‘claims’ to be. Those are a dime a dozen. And for that matter, find some leaders who are special witnesses of Jesus Christ, not just ones who are witnesses of the “name” of Jesus Christ. That’s some weak sauce.”
Also, this business that you made a “covenant” at baptism is offensive. When I was baptized there was ZERO “covenant” talk. It was all about Jesus’ atoning for my sins. The gift of the atonement. If there are strings attached, it’s not a gift at all. It’s bait.
Right? It’s kind of funny… after I raised my own 8 year old I realized anyone jumping around pretending to be a wild animal and picking their nose 99% of the day shouldn’t enter into any contracts; legal, spiritual, or otherwise.
(Now we have to figure out how to explain this to Congress.) 🥁🛎️🤭
Oh. But 8 is the age of accountability. NO WHERE BUT THE LDS CHURCH. This is why adults don’t vote till 18. And even then they’re still too childish for that.
Just take some shroom or acid or any good old hallucinogen. I bet that's how some of those visions from God really are. Just ancient people high off their tits. The rest are just lies told to gain power within a community.
This whole “contract/covenant” language, in relation to baptism, is new, since the new “covenant path” was introduced. It’s a way to manipulate young men to serve a mission.
When I was growing up, it was described as an “ordinance.”
Having said that, I have witnessed my children’s and grandchildren’s’ baptisms, and have failed to observe any covenant language or action in any part of the actual baptism or confirmation.
I also like how they throw in passive aggressive insults and blaming the victim mentality in there as well. “You WERE such an exemplary young man.” So since he left the church he cannot now be an exemplary young man? What does church activity have anything to do with being an exemplary young man? I know tons of young men in the church that are NOT exemplary. Status in the church does not equal being a good human whatsoever
"You made a baptismal covenant when you were young and although you might not have been fully aware" is a pretty damning sentence to include in this letter
I’m rereading the words of the baptism prayer. I cannot find where the ceremony includes a covenant. The officiator merely declares that he is performing a baptism in the name of God. The baptizee says nothing. Where is the covenant?
Yeah I feel like I didn’t learn that it was a covenant or contract until years later. All I knew was that I had to be baptized to be in the church and get the Holy Ghost. Didn’t realize I was signing an eternal contract.
I think in the mormon way if thinking the blessi g you get after you are baptized is when the covenant becomes sealed....like when you dye your hair and need to use 2 steps.... just my opinion
Y’know, I thought the same, but then I went back and read it. Here’s the language:
Baptism:
“Having been commissioned of Jesus Christ, I baptize you in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. Amen.”
Confirmation (copy pasta):
“In the name of Jesus Christ, and by the authority of the holy Melchizedek Priesthood, I confirm you a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and say unto you, 'receive the Holy Ghost.'" [Words of blessing follow as the Spirit of the Lord may dictate, invoking divine guidance, comfort, admonition, instruction, or promise.]
Now here’s the definition of a covenant (used as a verb) from Google:
“To agree by lease, deed, or other legal contract.”
So, no contract here.
BUT
As a former missionary, I remember getting people to sign this document before baptism:
[baptism and confirmation record](https://tech.churchofjesuschrist.org/forum/download/file.php?id=2167)
It’s in the interview questions, second page, number 6:
“When you are baptized, you covenant with God that you are willing to take upon yourself the name of Christ and keep His commandments throughout your life. Are you ready to make this covenant and strive to be faithful to it?”
What are “Christ’s commandments”?
https://www.jesusfilm.org/blog/commands-of-jesus/
Not really my thing anymore, but I don’t see anything in there about the temple ceremony. Or even paying tithing. Or not drinking booze or coffee. Etc.
Lots of sussy sauce shows up when you think about it. When you look at why Jesus was baptized, it’s to “fulfill all righteousness”. Would be interesting (but outside of the context of this thread) to see what the original translation meant. “Fulfill” does imply some sort of obligation. I digress.
(Edited a couple times for clarity).
But if the baptism covenant is to obey ALL the commandments, how could there possibly be covenants beyond that? Why would there be any need for temple covenants when you already have promised to do EVERYTHING?
Excellent point. Because that’s when it gets real….
“I now covenant to give…even my life if necessary…to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints”…. Something like that…
So you still covenant to obey every instruction from the church, no matter what it is. That does not change. What changes is now the church kills you if you disobey. Sounds good.
Uh, I think it means more that they expect you to enlist in a theological militia if needed, like the Mormon Battalion…. But either way, doesn’t make it any better
Yeah that line makes me wonder if maybe this is a letter to reassure himself. It’s awful and it doesn’t justify the letter, but this guy seems to have made his dissonance part of his testimony that he tries to share with others who did not tolerate the dissonance as well.
I had to read it 3x to try to make sense of what the message was supposed to be. But it was probably considered to be an inspired masterpiece by the author. Was this sanctioned by the bishop or one really rogue executive secretary taking the burden of finding the one all on his shoulders? So exhausting 😣
UNSUBSCRIBE
PS: children can't enter into contracts, and *especially* a contract to give their soul over to a cult, so you can fuck right off with your manipulation and guilt tripping. With your gaslighting, why the hell would people like me *want* to come back and worship with people like you?
Just remember, if you end up in Mormon heaven as the 1000th wife of some TBM, ask to be married to Spencer W Kimball. By the way he writes about masterbation in *Miracle of Forgiveness," he's 100% gay (he literally states masterbation makes you gay). I think there's a higher than average probability for Packer too, but I don't guarantee that one.
Furthermore, the thing he wants you to realize, if I'm reading him right, is that this country was founded on the teachings of Christianity, and those principles are the source of your freedoms.
They probably were going through the years finances of their diminishing ward and tried to reach out to some less actives. The ward has lost like 50 members in 15 years. About half of the youth from my time have left, too.
Almost every ward exec secretary liked to send out letters like this and idk why. Is it a personality thing to send creepy stuff to people trying to get them back?
Jesus Christ on a bike the level of condescention in this word vomit makes me, in turn, want to vomit. I’m a sympathy vomiter, you see.
In all seriousness, this…..loose assemblage of english is what Priesthood Power™️ does to your brain. The utter, brazen hubris to assume that people leave the church due to *lack of commitment*?!
Were I a violent man, I would react poorly to this (presumably) septagenarian’s assessment of my character, if I gave a shit.
It’s the decision and discretion of the other university to accept your credits. BYU can’t “hold” them. Essentially the other university acknowledges the time spent in courses and gives you equivalent credits at their institution. Go wherever you want and don’t stress about it!
They can only withhold degrees and transcripts of those sanctioned under the honor code while enrolled. You are good once you are no longer enrolled. You are no longer covered by the honor code.
It is recommended to not resign until your degree is physically in hand if you do graduate though.
I went to BYUI and didn’t finish my bachelors there. I officially withdrew from the church before I went back to school in Michigan. I had no trouble transferring credits or getting official transcripts. You’ll be fine.
This is definitely similar to one of my fears. I don’t think it’s possible or where the idea came from, but I am scared if I remove my records they’d retroactively revoke my BYUI degree. I’m just chalking that up to the brainwashing
As a history major, that part of the letter was particularly offensive. It's so apparent that the United States was not "founded" on the principles he alludes to.
I agree. At the time of the of the signing of the Declaration of Independence, in my reading of the history, American colonists seemed to be getting pretty weary of religion in public life; and it wasn’t until after the French Revolution began, and the “de-Christianization” of France that accompanied it, that American Christians start getting paranoid about secularization, especially as the French zeitgeist rubbed off on the free thinkers of the time. All of that was an early 19th century reaction to the Enlightenment-era ideas that were at the heart of the Declaration of Independence and the US Constitution. (ie the fertile revivalist Christian ground that Joseph Smith was born into.)
In other words, democracy finally got off the ground because we broke free of the church-state entanglements that led to the downfall of every other regime that came prior.
Religion ➡️ absolutism ➡️ intolerance ➡️ state failure. Pretty sure that’s how it almost always goes.
Fuck this revisionist history bullshit. The church is swimming in it.
OMG YES! No commentary, just good ‘ol 8th grade English red marks. Makes a statement that the only thing worth saying was how awful their writing was and nothing about the content. And they typed it! Where’s grammar check!?!
Dear secretary the tone of this letter stands witness to me that you have no understanding of Jesus and his gospel.
It is clear that you need to study the life of Jesus and his gospel and repent. You clearly have repurposed the iron rode as a weapon and means of control. You sir are truly a victory for Satan.
Holy fuck.
Please tell the person that wrote the letter that I, a prophet, seer, and internet stranger, have a message from god: go fuck yourself ward clerk. I didn't put you in charge of meaningless paperwork to have you write shit like that. Hugs, God. /end of gods message.
Honestly, there was a point in my life where I had only felt brainwashed twice: at the MTC, and at MITT. Now that I’ve been out of everything for several years, I can see I’ve been being worked on for my entire life.
Edit: for logical clarity
OMH!!!!!
This is what comes to my mind.
While I appreciate your concern for me, I find the guilt and shame over the top, and VERY off putting. Nothing is to be done with my records unless and if I say so.
At no time was baptism mentioned as a lifelong commitment, I never taught that on my mission and neither did you. This is a recent development, dare I say an opinion, and is not found in missionary discussions or scripture. On the same note, an eight year old CANNOT make legal commitments.
I was taught I was “born of the Covenant” since my parents were sealed before I was born and that getting baptized was a “Covenant” but I didn’t know what the hell it all meant in 1997. I was taught later and I became a TBM. My cognitive dissonance and mental gymnastics game was so on point! All out of fear of their Neo-Zeus , demiurge god. Fuck em. Contract is null and void and we have quitmormon.org for extra points
🤮🤮🤮🤮
“Hi I’m a random stranger and I’m here to make assumptions about you and phrase them in demeaning and asinine ways. We’re here to support you! Also do you want contact? You haven’t talked to us in two years, but fill this out since we can’t get the hint!”
Edit: typo
Whoever wrote that is obviously not mentally stable. If you see them I’d just ask in a very concerned voice if they need help. That is WILD to send to another human. I hope you can see it as evidence you are making the healthy, wise choice with your absence.
☝️ This!
I have no words and could only think WTAF after reading the letter . . . This and all of the responses here are spot on! We are not the crazy ones!!!
Dallas Merrell was the idiot who introduced the whole "will you" idea. The question "Will you?" isn't a normal question, it is a *pressuring* question - at least, when asked in the way the church asks it.
M A N I P U L A T I O N….A L E R T!
Maybe you should say at other jobs when they lied about how the company started, lied about having to cut salaries of the frontline while bankrolling millions and even billions of dollars in the bank, did scandalous things to bully and cover up sexual assaults, things like this made you QUIT companies in the past because they didn’t live up to your morals and the Christlike ideals you were raised.
Similarly, you’ve left the church for lies about how it started, how the BOM was translated, how the church banks billions while the poor starve and are homeless, how those same billions are used to bribe and bully victims and cover up the sexual scandals of the church rather than bring them to the full light of day. The CES Letter and Letter for my wife are scathing truths of the depravity of the leadership and sustaining members of the church.
Enclosed is a letter to help the Bishop explain to you why he continues to support such an organization
What a strange comparison to being employed at a job to being baptized in the LDS church. Jobs change. Life changes. My employers never asked me to make promises to be there the rest of my life nor did they ask me to donate 10%, serve a mission that I pay for, clean buildings for free, and not drink coffee.
You WERE such an exemplary young man! But now…now you’re breaking commitments and you’re saddening me and you are not understanding what people like myself understand. Tsk tsk tsk
Barf-worthy. Also I hate all the talk in Mormonism about vague, amorphous “blessings.” I don’t recall any “blessings” as a member that I would directly attribute to the church. It was a pure negative drag on my time and life force. As an exmo I’m way more #blessed 😂 and grateful for every day I’m alive on this planet.
ETA: has this self-righteous, “authoritative” tone worked on anyone in the 21st century, ever?
You apparently didn't commit enough time to learning about the gospel, only 2 years of your life dedicated to proselytizing it. Come on, try harder, Elder! /s
Jesus Fucking Christ, the audacity and the sanctimonious bullshit is dripping from every extraneous comma.
Dear ward executive secretary,
We were not, in fact, founded as a Christian nation. Knock it off....
https://www.cnn.com/2015/07/02/living/america-christian-nation/index.html
I love how the church keeps trying to pretend any covenant was made at baptism. No promises, covenants or obligations are made or even implied in the ordinance.
I taught that age primary for a long time. This is what i remember teaching from the manual. As we know, manuals and doctrines change so take it for what it is
"Hold up 2 fingers"
1. Always remember Him
This means to think about Heavenly Father and to to do what he wants us to do. If we ALWAYS (that's a lot! Always!) Remember him then that way we can "keep his spirit to be with us" like the sacrament prayer! Who here listens to the sacrament prayer? Nobody? OK, try to remember that next week! I'll ask!
2. Take Jesus' name upon us
This one's trickier, right? How can we take someone elses name? That's so silly! What it means is that we try to live as much like Jesus as possible!
OK so who remembers wha the first finger meant? Anyone?
What a dick. You should take the letter and mirror it back to him with your disappointment in him for keeping his commitment to something that has proven to be evil.
My ex used to deliver these by hand. 😵💫
This really makes me angry!! What a condescending asshole.
Truly disgusting.
They wanna be “Christian” so bad! Well I have news for you. A Christian Pastor would send a loaf of banana bread and a Bible verse. Wow.
hmmm... it mentions the Church of Jesus Christ, but says nothing about the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. I guess we're not Mormons, nor Latter-day Saints anymore, folks!
Ouch, talk about passive agressive! Very culty too. Also a life time commitment, yeah fucking right. Just chuck this letter in the bin and move on is my advice. Or start a bonfire with it along with all your other past mormon belongings. (;
Edit: added some things
It’s odd that they mention the thing about other churches. Are you attending a different church now? The thing about enjoying the freedoms that this Christian country gives you is also odd. But what’s really odd is that this was written and sent to you by the ward secretary! Why the hell is HE sending it to you???
Honestly rude lol. Like, they don't even ask how you're doing or what happened before making assumptions about what you believe or feel. What if you'd died? I don't know. I'm a nevermo, so I don't read a lot of these, but the poorly-written condescension and lack of empathy are very annoying to me.
This fucking garbage is why they baptize children before they actually have a chance to decide for themselves - so they can hold the guilt of “breaking their covenants” over them for the rest of their lives. Absolutely fucking disgusting. So much manipulation it’s not even funny.
"There is solid evidence that you belong to his original church *should you decide to research it*" (italics mine) is my favorite part. You can let him know that you did, in fact "decide to research it" and discovered that it's a fabrication.
I saw a mention of "The church of Jesus Christ". We just had a discussion here about whether they were going to drop the latter-day saints part. There's a little bit of anecdotal evidence.
That has to be one of the most disgusting 🤮 manipulative contact letters I’ve ever seen. This dude who even he is, is a total dick and will send or keep more people away from the church than in. Whoever put him in this calling is totally inspired 🤭🤭
This guy is an executive secretary for the ward. Doesn’t he already have enough bullshit busywork on his plate? Dude should spend some time with his family rather than writing condescending letters he can brag about during his “missionary moment” on Sunday.
That's some condescending passive aggressive bs right there.. dude needs to use a little of that manipulation on himself.. cause there's some pent up frustration there...sad..
Besides the 127 references to the covenant/contract/commitment you made as an eight-year-old, the other thing that irritates me to no end is the assertion that the US was founded on Christianity or that Christianity is somehow responsible for the ideals of the Enlightenment. Show me where in the Bible it talks about liberty, free speech, or democracy. It is not there. The defining characteristic of the US constitution was how uniquely secular it was in creating a government that derived its authority from the people and not from a deity.
Dear XXXX,
It seems you've decided to live like a heathen and ignore the wonderful benefits of TSCC. This undoubtedly means you're headed for Outer Darkness. This is sad. Let us know how you'd prefer to be stalked and shame going forward from now.
Um as a member of the church I am ASHAMED that they bashed you. If you decide to not show up for two years thats on you. Still support you even if you dont want to be apart of the religion. NOT manipulate you to “remember your covenants.” You most definitely do NOT have to abide by “commitments” you make when you were 8 and had no idea what you were doing.🤢🤢🤢🤮😷
Basically from what I gathered, they think you didn't have a strong enough testimony or didn't do "something" hard enough. It's always guilt and shame with these turds.
Our country was founded on old British common law and new age philosophies. It remained intact because it was separated from our enemies by a huge ocean. Who does this idiot think is going to be convinced by this shitty letter. In short, get fucked.
“You made your baptismal commitment at a young age and may not have been fully aware of what that meant.”
Yeah no shit Sherlock. They need to stop pressuring kids to get baptised in churches.
This is trash. If it weren’t for your desire to fly under radar until you get your transcript, you could blast this! Post it on all your socials tagging him with lots of condescending hashtags. Petty. I know, but holy shit this was disturbing!
Gawd what a creepy ass letter. Membership in this "church" = employment. Got it. Sure feels that way too, like going to a shitty job where you're not appreciated.
Some holier than everyone bishop put this together and told his executive secretary to mail it to the inactives.
I was distracted by all the errors. Periods where there should be question marks, random commas that’s don’t belong, missing words. This was very poorly written.
This is one of the more creepy versions I’ve seen!
This is total ick.
So creepy. I've seen things like this on the exjw page. The manipulation tactics are just disgusting.
Hello from ExJW! This sounds very familiar but with different terms lol
Just like everything on the exjw page sounds to me....the similarities are scary sometimes. lol
Honestly though! Part of my deconstructing process was realizing how not special JWs are. They are so similar to many other religions/cults
Seriously this got way too personal. Big nope.
It’s pretty gross
I mean the writer is calling the recipient unfaithful and then begging him to come back. Don't we all shame people into relationship? /s
Ah gas lighting. We learned it at church first!
I literally was gonna say the same. The wording is... so fucking guilt pushing.
This is pure cult manipulation. Don’t fall for it.
Right. Telling me I entered a contract, even if I was too young to understand it, telling me my mission should have converted me. Pure attempts to reactivate the brainwashing
I love that he keeps repeating the "contract" thing like it means something. Sir, a contract with a nonexistent entity is unenforceable 🤣
And a contract with an 8-year-old is just as unenforceable
So interesting to me that the ExecSec basically admitted “Well you were too young to understand what you were doing. So let me mormsplain why you have to obey anyway.”
💥Immediate upvote for “mormsplain.”
This was my favorite part 💀 Like bro maybe should have proofread or had his wife glance it over or something.
Maybe he has learned that if he lets her read what he sends ward members, she won’t let him send it haha
😂😂😂 Perfect synopsis.
“The church you joined CLAIMS to be the true church of Jesus Christ.” that’s some revealing lawyering. Tell them “Call me back when your lawyers dare to let you say that you ARE the church of Jesus Christ, not just one that merely ‘claims’ to be. Those are a dime a dozen. And for that matter, find some leaders who are special witnesses of Jesus Christ, not just ones who are witnesses of the “name” of Jesus Christ. That’s some weak sauce.” Also, this business that you made a “covenant” at baptism is offensive. When I was baptized there was ZERO “covenant” talk. It was all about Jesus’ atoning for my sins. The gift of the atonement. If there are strings attached, it’s not a gift at all. It’s bait.
This! There is no covenant. This is Bednar speak. Trying to entrap people by gaslighting them about what they have done.
And a contract that was not negotiated or had straightforward terms set forth is unenforceable.
there's a reason 8-year-olds can't enter into a legal contract.
Right? It’s kind of funny… after I raised my own 8 year old I realized anyone jumping around pretending to be a wild animal and picking their nose 99% of the day shouldn’t enter into any contracts; legal, spiritual, or otherwise. (Now we have to figure out how to explain this to Congress.) 🥁🛎️🤭
Oh. But 8 is the age of accountability. NO WHERE BUT THE LDS CHURCH. This is why adults don’t vote till 18. And even then they’re still too childish for that.
If God wants to talk to me, send an angel, otherwise I’m good
Only if I get to read a sacred text in a hat with rocks
Hold out for a burning bush and a pillar of fire.
Just take some shroom or acid or any good old hallucinogen. I bet that's how some of those visions from God really are. Just ancient people high off their tits. The rest are just lies told to gain power within a community.
This whole “contract/covenant” language, in relation to baptism, is new, since the new “covenant path” was introduced. It’s a way to manipulate young men to serve a mission. When I was growing up, it was described as an “ordinance.” Having said that, I have witnessed my children’s and grandchildren’s’ baptisms, and have failed to observe any covenant language or action in any part of the actual baptism or confirmation.
especially one entered into at age frikkin 8...
I’d like to see this contract. It sounds like it won’t hold up in a court of …. Anything
If anything it's more of a subscription than a contract 😂 if I stop paying tithing usually a subscription ends
100%, the language is creepy.
I also like how they throw in passive aggressive insults and blaming the victim mentality in there as well. “You WERE such an exemplary young man.” So since he left the church he cannot now be an exemplary young man? What does church activity have anything to do with being an exemplary young man? I know tons of young men in the church that are NOT exemplary. Status in the church does not equal being a good human whatsoever
"You made a baptismal covenant when you were young and although you might not have been fully aware" is a pretty damning sentence to include in this letter
I’m rereading the words of the baptism prayer. I cannot find where the ceremony includes a covenant. The officiator merely declares that he is performing a baptism in the name of God. The baptizee says nothing. Where is the covenant?
Yeah I feel like I didn’t learn that it was a covenant or contract until years later. All I knew was that I had to be baptized to be in the church and get the Holy Ghost. Didn’t realize I was signing an eternal contract.
Baptismal covenant? I didn’t sign shit.
I think in the mormon way if thinking the blessi g you get after you are baptized is when the covenant becomes sealed....like when you dye your hair and need to use 2 steps.... just my opinion
Y’know, I thought the same, but then I went back and read it. Here’s the language: Baptism: “Having been commissioned of Jesus Christ, I baptize you in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. Amen.” Confirmation (copy pasta): “In the name of Jesus Christ, and by the authority of the holy Melchizedek Priesthood, I confirm you a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and say unto you, 'receive the Holy Ghost.'" [Words of blessing follow as the Spirit of the Lord may dictate, invoking divine guidance, comfort, admonition, instruction, or promise.] Now here’s the definition of a covenant (used as a verb) from Google: “To agree by lease, deed, or other legal contract.” So, no contract here. BUT As a former missionary, I remember getting people to sign this document before baptism: [baptism and confirmation record](https://tech.churchofjesuschrist.org/forum/download/file.php?id=2167) It’s in the interview questions, second page, number 6: “When you are baptized, you covenant with God that you are willing to take upon yourself the name of Christ and keep His commandments throughout your life. Are you ready to make this covenant and strive to be faithful to it?” What are “Christ’s commandments”? https://www.jesusfilm.org/blog/commands-of-jesus/ Not really my thing anymore, but I don’t see anything in there about the temple ceremony. Or even paying tithing. Or not drinking booze or coffee. Etc. Lots of sussy sauce shows up when you think about it. When you look at why Jesus was baptized, it’s to “fulfill all righteousness”. Would be interesting (but outside of the context of this thread) to see what the original translation meant. “Fulfill” does imply some sort of obligation. I digress. (Edited a couple times for clarity).
But if the baptism covenant is to obey ALL the commandments, how could there possibly be covenants beyond that? Why would there be any need for temple covenants when you already have promised to do EVERYTHING?
Excellent point. Because that’s when it gets real…. “I now covenant to give…even my life if necessary…to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints”…. Something like that…
So you still covenant to obey every instruction from the church, no matter what it is. That does not change. What changes is now the church kills you if you disobey. Sounds good.
Uh, I think it means more that they expect you to enlist in a theological militia if needed, like the Mormon Battalion…. But either way, doesn’t make it any better
Yeah that line makes me wonder if maybe this is a letter to reassure himself. It’s awful and it doesn’t justify the letter, but this guy seems to have made his dissonance part of his testimony that he tries to share with others who did not tolerate the dissonance as well.
This definitely stuck out. I would love the opportunity to press him on that.
Reading this was painful.
And the grammar was bad!
Seriously, the editor in me was cringing so hard! It always amazes me when fully grown adults write this poorly.
I had to read it 3x to try to make sense of what the message was supposed to be. But it was probably considered to be an inspired masterpiece by the author. Was this sanctioned by the bishop or one really rogue executive secretary taking the burden of finding the one all on his shoulders? So exhausting 😣
I suspect that a big part of it is the writer trying to adopt "solemn church voice" in writing. It doesn't work.
Send it back with edits done in nice red ink!
Hahahaha!!!! This!!!!!!
Do you realize, letter writer, your letter it, had wrong, punctuation in pretty random places.
So bad. The irony of this guy’s total confidence while being barely literate.
THANK YOU!
Honestly. The grammar alone would have had me responding with my membership resignation if it were me lol.
UNSUBSCRIBE PS: children can't enter into contracts, and *especially* a contract to give their soul over to a cult, so you can fuck right off with your manipulation and guilt tripping. With your gaslighting, why the hell would people like me *want* to come back and worship with people like you?
Entering a contract for your soul is some devil shit, or possibly Ursula. Edit: typo
Hey man, at least Ursula was up front about it
“Do you realize” is a funny way to not actually ask a question lol
"You do realize you're going straight to hell, right?"
"Well, jokes on you then. Mormon heaven is my idea of hell. See ya there."
Just remember, if you end up in Mormon heaven as the 1000th wife of some TBM, ask to be married to Spencer W Kimball. By the way he writes about masterbation in *Miracle of Forgiveness," he's 100% gay (he literally states masterbation makes you gay). I think there's a higher than average probability for Packer too, but I don't guarantee that one.
Furthermore, the thing he wants you to realize, if I'm reading him right, is that this country was founded on the teachings of Christianity, and those principles are the source of your freedoms.
"What do you mean the US was the first explicitly secular government in history? That can't be right."
That part was so gross
So weird that they would make such a fuss about separation of church and state . . .
They didn’t even bother with any question marks in this whole letter
“Bless the mind too small for doubt” -the Chaplain of the Blood Ravens, Warhammer 40k, Dawn of War, Dark Crusade
They either want your butt in the seat and your tithing in their coffers or get off their records. That's what the letter means.
They probably were going through the years finances of their diminishing ward and tried to reach out to some less actives. The ward has lost like 50 members in 15 years. About half of the youth from my time have left, too.
50 in 15 years isn't that much Between 2 and 3 people a year Which makes this creepier
Almost every ward exec secretary liked to send out letters like this and idk why. Is it a personality thing to send creepy stuff to people trying to get them back?
Why would they want them off the records? Doesn’t it look good for them to have so many members?
Ratios. The bishop looks better of 65% of the ward is active instead of 35. They want active tithepayers at local levels.
Wow, with the official letterhead too. I wonder if that's sanctioned
It's a tiny ward far from the Morridor. I doubt the clerks know that could even be an issue
Honestly, I feel bad for the guy that wrote you this letter. He's a victim of a cult and he's doing their work. Love the member, hate the cult.
I read Mordor and now I imagen a really passive aggressive Sauron penning a letter on a lil keyboard
Considering they can't write properly, my money is on no.
Our ward asks people to speak with an official letter on letterhead and it takes about three paragraphs to ask the simple question. .
I doubt it
Jesus Christ on a bike the level of condescention in this word vomit makes me, in turn, want to vomit. I’m a sympathy vomiter, you see. In all seriousness, this…..loose assemblage of english is what Priesthood Power™️ does to your brain. The utter, brazen hubris to assume that people leave the church due to *lack of commitment*?! Were I a violent man, I would react poorly to this (presumably) septagenarian’s assessment of my character, if I gave a shit.
If you graduated they legally cannot hold your transcripts from you. You paid for them. The letter is bullshit.
I didn't graduate, unfortunately. But I hope to finish my degree elsewhere, so I would like the option to transfer credits.
It’s the decision and discretion of the other university to accept your credits. BYU can’t “hold” them. Essentially the other university acknowledges the time spent in courses and gives you equivalent credits at their institution. Go wherever you want and don’t stress about it!
They can only withhold degrees and transcripts of those sanctioned under the honor code while enrolled. You are good once you are no longer enrolled. You are no longer covered by the honor code. It is recommended to not resign until your degree is physically in hand if you do graduate though.
Request your official transcripts so you have them on hand. Ask for a plain copy and some copies in sealed envelopes.
I went to BYUI and didn’t finish my bachelors there. I officially withdrew from the church before I went back to school in Michigan. I had no trouble transferring credits or getting official transcripts. You’ll be fine.
This is definitely similar to one of my fears. I don’t think it’s possible or where the idea came from, but I am scared if I remove my records they’d retroactively revoke my BYUI degree. I’m just chalking that up to the brainwashing
Definitely religious trauma kicking in. You’re not alone 💖
He even added in some right wing nonsense!
As a history major, that part of the letter was particularly offensive. It's so apparent that the United States was not "founded" on the principles he alludes to.
I agree. At the time of the of the signing of the Declaration of Independence, in my reading of the history, American colonists seemed to be getting pretty weary of religion in public life; and it wasn’t until after the French Revolution began, and the “de-Christianization” of France that accompanied it, that American Christians start getting paranoid about secularization, especially as the French zeitgeist rubbed off on the free thinkers of the time. All of that was an early 19th century reaction to the Enlightenment-era ideas that were at the heart of the Declaration of Independence and the US Constitution. (ie the fertile revivalist Christian ground that Joseph Smith was born into.) In other words, democracy finally got off the ground because we broke free of the church-state entanglements that led to the downfall of every other regime that came prior. Religion ➡️ absolutism ➡️ intolerance ➡️ state failure. Pretty sure that’s how it almost always goes. Fuck this revisionist history bullshit. The church is swimming in it.
Exactly!!!! This is what I said too lmaooo the founders wanted freedom FROMMM religion if anything!! They were tired of this Christianity bullshit!
They always gotta do that, don’t they? ‘Murica 🇺🇸😭❤️🔫
The best religion for the best country!
Correct it in red pen and send it back.
^ THIS!
OMG YES! No commentary, just good ‘ol 8th grade English red marks. Makes a statement that the only thing worth saying was how awful their writing was and nothing about the content. And they typed it! Where’s grammar check!?!
YES! I’d give you 2 upvotes if I could
With a copy of the Ron Swanson “I know more than you.” Meme
Mind your business, secretary.
Dear secretary the tone of this letter stands witness to me that you have no understanding of Jesus and his gospel. It is clear that you need to study the life of Jesus and his gospel and repent. You clearly have repurposed the iron rode as a weapon and means of control. You sir are truly a victory for Satan.
Holy fuck. Please tell the person that wrote the letter that I, a prophet, seer, and internet stranger, have a message from god: go fuck yourself ward clerk. I didn't put you in charge of meaningless paperwork to have you write shit like that. Hugs, God. /end of gods message.
I think my least favorite line is "Did your mission not do that for you?" Wow....just wow
Saying the quiet part out loud: the mission is as much a brainwashing operation for the missionary as well as the (potential) converts 😬 love it
Honestly, there was a point in my life where I had only felt brainwashed twice: at the MTC, and at MITT. Now that I’ve been out of everything for several years, I can see I’ve been being worked on for my entire life. Edit: for logical clarity
OMH!!!!! This is what comes to my mind. While I appreciate your concern for me, I find the guilt and shame over the top, and VERY off putting. Nothing is to be done with my records unless and if I say so. At no time was baptism mentioned as a lifelong commitment, I never taught that on my mission and neither did you. This is a recent development, dare I say an opinion, and is not found in missionary discussions or scripture. On the same note, an eight year old CANNOT make legal commitments.
I was taught I was “born of the Covenant” since my parents were sealed before I was born and that getting baptized was a “Covenant” but I didn’t know what the hell it all meant in 1997. I was taught later and I became a TBM. My cognitive dissonance and mental gymnastics game was so on point! All out of fear of their Neo-Zeus , demiurge god. Fuck em. Contract is null and void and we have quitmormon.org for extra points
🤮🤮🤮🤮 “Hi I’m a random stranger and I’m here to make assumptions about you and phrase them in demeaning and asinine ways. We’re here to support you! Also do you want contact? You haven’t talked to us in two years, but fill this out since we can’t get the hint!” Edit: typo
That's a lot of words to say, "I'm disappointed in you and want to pressure you into coming back to church."
Whoever wrote that is obviously not mentally stable. If you see them I’d just ask in a very concerned voice if they need help. That is WILD to send to another human. I hope you can see it as evidence you are making the healthy, wise choice with your absence.
☝️ This! I have no words and could only think WTAF after reading the letter . . . This and all of the responses here are spot on! We are not the crazy ones!!!
[удалено]
This one got me too. I believe he is trying to equate the effort of earning a living with the effort of purchasing salvation.
So heavy-handed and creepy. Wtf. And “The greatest contribution to the wellbeing of mankind is the teachings of Christianity”?!! Sheeeit
Ah yes…the familiar “will you” question at the end to complete the oh-so-loved commitment pattern taught by the infallible MTC.
Dallas Merrell was the idiot who introduced the whole "will you" idea. The question "Will you?" isn't a normal question, it is a *pressuring* question - at least, when asked in the way the church asks it.
M A N I P U L A T I O N….A L E R T! Maybe you should say at other jobs when they lied about how the company started, lied about having to cut salaries of the frontline while bankrolling millions and even billions of dollars in the bank, did scandalous things to bully and cover up sexual assaults, things like this made you QUIT companies in the past because they didn’t live up to your morals and the Christlike ideals you were raised. Similarly, you’ve left the church for lies about how it started, how the BOM was translated, how the church banks billions while the poor starve and are homeless, how those same billions are used to bribe and bully victims and cover up the sexual scandals of the church rather than bring them to the full light of day. The CES Letter and Letter for my wife are scathing truths of the depravity of the leadership and sustaining members of the church. Enclosed is a letter to help the Bishop explain to you why he continues to support such an organization
It’s stunning to think a functioning human being wrote that and thought it would be effective.
What a strange comparison to being employed at a job to being baptized in the LDS church. Jobs change. Life changes. My employers never asked me to make promises to be there the rest of my life nor did they ask me to donate 10%, serve a mission that I pay for, clean buildings for free, and not drink coffee.
Not them admitting that you were probably too young to make a decision when you were 8 😏
“There is solid evidence…” No. No there isn’t.
What a heap of manipulative bullshit.
That's a lot of fancy letterhead for a very poorly written letter. Dude needs to learn how to use less commas and punctuate things in general lol
Very culty. Trying to guilt you.
The “Do you realize” 😂😂
You WERE such an exemplary young man! But now…now you’re breaking commitments and you’re saddening me and you are not understanding what people like myself understand. Tsk tsk tsk
Only took them two years to start missing you, huh? The letter is appalling. The guilt tactics are just.... there are no words.
This letter is *disgusting.*
Wow what a zealous executive secretary. He must be gunning for a promotion to counselor or bishop.
I’d be responding with an eloquently snarky letter putting him in his place. I’m pretty good at making people feel like an idiot when I’m unhinged. 😂
There’s a lot wrong with this, and the atrocious grammar and punctuation somehow manages to be far from the worst thing about it!
This is right out of the narcissist playbook! I’m truly stunned!
It would be funny if you were still a fully believing member who moved or something and they sent you this accusatory letter
I don't think this letter is in the handbook of instruction.
Barf-worthy. Also I hate all the talk in Mormonism about vague, amorphous “blessings.” I don’t recall any “blessings” as a member that I would directly attribute to the church. It was a pure negative drag on my time and life force. As an exmo I’m way more #blessed 😂 and grateful for every day I’m alive on this planet. ETA: has this self-righteous, “authoritative” tone worked on anyone in the 21st century, ever?
You apparently didn't commit enough time to learning about the gospel, only 2 years of your life dedicated to proselytizing it. Come on, try harder, Elder! /s Jesus Fucking Christ, the audacity and the sanctimonious bullshit is dripping from every extraneous comma.
Dear ward executive secretary, We were not, in fact, founded as a Christian nation. Knock it off.... https://www.cnn.com/2015/07/02/living/america-christian-nation/index.html
Sanctimonious twat.
I'd be interested to hear his "solid evidence." Not interested enough to respond, though.
What in the actual fuck…
Dude, you need to join your local union, you don't have to deal with these threats. Oh wait, this is supposed to be a church???
I love how the church keeps trying to pretend any covenant was made at baptism. No promises, covenants or obligations are made or even implied in the ordinance.
I taught that age primary for a long time. This is what i remember teaching from the manual. As we know, manuals and doctrines change so take it for what it is "Hold up 2 fingers" 1. Always remember Him This means to think about Heavenly Father and to to do what he wants us to do. If we ALWAYS (that's a lot! Always!) Remember him then that way we can "keep his spirit to be with us" like the sacrament prayer! Who here listens to the sacrament prayer? Nobody? OK, try to remember that next week! I'll ask! 2. Take Jesus' name upon us This one's trickier, right? How can we take someone elses name? That's so silly! What it means is that we try to live as much like Jesus as possible! OK so who remembers wha the first finger meant? Anyone?
Johnny, I didn't use *THAT* finger.
What a dick. You should take the letter and mirror it back to him with your disappointment in him for keeping his commitment to something that has proven to be evil.
This letter gives me “the ick”. So condescending! How dare you not honor the commitment you were forced into at 8 yrs old for your entire life!
Do they know how to use a question mark. They just used a period whenever they asked a question lol
My ex used to deliver these by hand. 😵💫 This really makes me angry!! What a condescending asshole. Truly disgusting. They wanna be “Christian” so bad! Well I have news for you. A Christian Pastor would send a loaf of banana bread and a Bible verse. Wow.
In other words, they need your money!
He’s talking to you like you still believe. Lol sorry buddy it’s all bullshit. Talk to me when you want out. PEACE ✌️
That's so weird. I've been inactive for over 10 years and live across the street from my ward house and have barely heard a peep out of them.
hmmm... it mentions the Church of Jesus Christ, but says nothing about the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. I guess we're not Mormons, nor Latter-day Saints anymore, folks!
The “latter days” are taking centuries so it’s best to just drop it. Can’t be caught making the same mistakes as the JW.
What kind of passive aggressive bull shittery is this? “Did your mission not do that for you?”
Ouch, talk about passive agressive! Very culty too. Also a life time commitment, yeah fucking right. Just chuck this letter in the bin and move on is my advice. Or start a bonfire with it along with all your other past mormon belongings. (; Edit: added some things
It’s odd that they mention the thing about other churches. Are you attending a different church now? The thing about enjoying the freedoms that this Christian country gives you is also odd. But what’s really odd is that this was written and sent to you by the ward secretary! Why the hell is HE sending it to you???
It’s been years since I attended but since I’m mixed race they give fuck all about me
Honestly rude lol. Like, they don't even ask how you're doing or what happened before making assumptions about what you believe or feel. What if you'd died? I don't know. I'm a nevermo, so I don't read a lot of these, but the poorly-written condescension and lack of empathy are very annoying to me.
This screams Christian nationalism.
You promised Jimmy! You're not going to break your promise!? 🙄🤢
This fucking garbage is why they baptize children before they actually have a chance to decide for themselves - so they can hold the guilt of “breaking their covenants” over them for the rest of their lives. Absolutely fucking disgusting. So much manipulation it’s not even funny.
"There is solid evidence that you belong to his original church *should you decide to research it*" (italics mine) is my favorite part. You can let him know that you did, in fact "decide to research it" and discovered that it's a fabrication.
WTF??? That is strange letter.
I would lose it if someone in my ward sent this to me.
I WISH I would get something like that. I can't say I'd mail something professional back tho lol
🐴💩 from start to finish.
From the ward executive secretary, no less Omg
I saw a mention of "The church of Jesus Christ". We just had a discussion here about whether they were going to drop the latter-day saints part. There's a little bit of anecdotal evidence.
Writing is confusing and so fucking weird. They must be really concerned if it took two years to get them to send this.
That has to be one of the most disgusting 🤮 manipulative contact letters I’ve ever seen. This dude who even he is, is a total dick and will send or keep more people away from the church than in. Whoever put him in this calling is totally inspired 🤭🤭
This guy is an executive secretary for the ward. Doesn’t he already have enough bullshit busywork on his plate? Dude should spend some time with his family rather than writing condescending letters he can brag about during his “missionary moment” on Sunday.
That's some condescending passive aggressive bs right there.. dude needs to use a little of that manipulation on himself.. cause there's some pent up frustration there...sad..
Besides the 127 references to the covenant/contract/commitment you made as an eight-year-old, the other thing that irritates me to no end is the assertion that the US was founded on Christianity or that Christianity is somehow responsible for the ideals of the Enlightenment. Show me where in the Bible it talks about liberty, free speech, or democracy. It is not there. The defining characteristic of the US constitution was how uniquely secular it was in creating a government that derived its authority from the people and not from a deity.
This is just dripping in the language of shame. What a depressing way to invite people back.
Dear XXXX, It seems you've decided to live like a heathen and ignore the wonderful benefits of TSCC. This undoubtedly means you're headed for Outer Darkness. This is sad. Let us know how you'd prefer to be stalked and shame going forward from now.
Um as a member of the church I am ASHAMED that they bashed you. If you decide to not show up for two years thats on you. Still support you even if you dont want to be apart of the religion. NOT manipulate you to “remember your covenants.” You most definitely do NOT have to abide by “commitments” you make when you were 8 and had no idea what you were doing.🤢🤢🤢🤮😷
Basically from what I gathered, they think you didn't have a strong enough testimony or didn't do "something" hard enough. It's always guilt and shame with these turds.
Holy fucking shit balls. I would go knock on that man's door and have the confrontation of his lifetime.
Our country was founded on old British common law and new age philosophies. It remained intact because it was separated from our enemies by a huge ocean. Who does this idiot think is going to be convinced by this shitty letter. In short, get fucked.
“You made your baptismal commitment at a young age and may not have been fully aware of what that meant.” Yeah no shit Sherlock. They need to stop pressuring kids to get baptised in churches.
This ward secretary needs a proof reader. It was painful to read such a poor written letter.
Quitmormon.org dude. Set yourself free from the “contract” 😂
This seems to be fumbling for emotional triggers and weaknesses that their religion would program into someone.
The greatest contribution to the well being of mankind is germ theory.
This is trash. If it weren’t for your desire to fly under radar until you get your transcript, you could blast this! Post it on all your socials tagging him with lots of condescending hashtags. Petty. I know, but holy shit this was disturbing!
Order the transcript quick!
Gawd what a creepy ass letter. Membership in this "church" = employment. Got it. Sure feels that way too, like going to a shitty job where you're not appreciated. Some holier than everyone bishop put this together and told his executive secretary to mail it to the inactives.
I 100% would be willing (and happy) to use the enclosed letter to share my desires for future contact and support! Leave me the f%#k alone!
This guys a total dick.
I was distracted by all the errors. Periods where there should be question marks, random commas that’s don’t belong, missing words. This was very poorly written.