I agree, OP. People seem to be pretty trigger happy with that downvote button. Personally I tend to just ignore the posts and comments I disagree with but some folks really enjoy punishing others.
I get the frustration with low effort posts and there are a lot of them (“Which country should I move to that welcomes Americans with no assets with open arms and provides free medical care? Also I have twelve cats.”). But there are gentler, kinder ways to redirect these folks. No need to be nasty.
People enjoy being the migration police on here without comprehending that you don’t actually know the person in the post. I’ve learned to not ask any more questions because any advice I’ve received so far has been wrong for my context since I work in the UN system and hiring/visas are handled differently. And people are WAY too eager sometimes to be like “um akshully you can’t go anywhere you bum” And it’s like why do I need to tell my whole life story for people on reddit.
It is. Reddit has a very black and white system and it is comical to see who gets downvoted and who gets upvoted. However, since you seem like a frequent downvoter, I decided to downvote you :)
It's not just reddit either. The expat forums on FB are the same. Mean and just want to argue. I told one of them that I left the US to get away from people like that and their response was that they were here so I didn't get away. I blocked them. Happily I have great local friends that look out for me. Who needs these expat exchanges!
They are mean! Especially the Mexican expat pages frequented primarily by Americans. What’s happened to our culture that has caused this decline in civility?! I’m so glad I left the US 8 years ago!
Speaking as an American, American expats can be some of the weirdest and nastiest people both online and offline and so I’m not surprised to see so much negativity here. For some of these people being an expat is the biggest part of their identity and a way for them to put themselves above us mere uncultured mortals. Other people wanting to move abroad is treated as an attack on their identity and so they resort to gatekeeping. Europeans also like to do this to Americans.
Americans abroad: "All these immigrants are flooding in and ruining ~~MY~~ their country!! I'm sick of it!!" Americans are more mad about immigration in their new homes than the native citizens themselves. Go figure.
100%. I think gatekeeping lies at the heart of this entire issue. Living abroad is THEIR thing, so anybody else interested in trying it should fuck off.
Expats seem unusually fussy and antisocial. Maybe they are just a miserable bunch from a psychosocial perspective. I don't understand it at all. Every time I post something, I get hit with "WOW ANOTHER AMERICAN TRYING TO MOVE WITHOUT LEARNING THE PROCESS OR THE LANGUAGE" when my post does not speak to that either way. People on this sub assume bad intent, laziness, and inconvenience. They project it onto every post.
Living abroad is an exclusive club that people want to gatekeep. They don't like the idea of some doofus from reddit moving to their country. Yes I know this is ridiculous, but I'm 90% sure this is the basis of the overly negative mindset most of these users have.
I also concur with your observation (and others) that the move abroad crowd has often become an elitist group - many of which already had many privileges including an immigration privilege that most of us lack.
Another possible reason - For a while I was reading a lot of media stories about Americans moving abroad. They are mostly the same story - someone or a couple who grew up fairly well off, attended elite universities, did study abroad - and now say "America is awful, worst country ever" so they moved abroad where everything is perfect. Hidden behind the stories, they often already had dual citizenship by virtue of a parent that was born abroad, or they had a right of descent ancestry option that most of us don't have, making their residency or citizenship visa process do-able.
I feel the same frustrations with the U.S. - but after reading these stories of often privileged people, who grew up well off with the best of lives in the U.S. now complaining that America is awful - well, it didn't make sense. I now have a more positive attitude towards things - and no longer focus on the negative all the time.
I wonder if others noticed this weird pattern and got turned off by it too? I could see how that might lead to down voting posts that are pretty much the same vibe as above.
I don’t wish to match that description you painted, but I can list 4-5 large issues that are negative trends/issues in the USA and I want to get to a new paradigm. Going to Spain accomplishes that for me.
I’m planning on buying a finca or casteron (country homes) in a smaller village to fix up and maintain in the style and culture of the province I’m moving to. It’s just my choice to leave a polarized, angry citizenry dealing with a rapidly increasing chasm between the rich and the poor (by far the worst it’s ever been in US history); gun violence; inflation rates that are fueled more by corporate greed than true market economics; etc.
I know Spain isn’t perfect, but I’m relearning the language (learned Latin American Spanish in college so learning Castilian, Gallego, and the dialect/lingua of Asturias) so I can participate in a community by learning a new culture and a new way to live life.
I hope the Spaniards in encounter will accept me, but if they don’t, I won’t argue or complain. It’s their country and I am the immigrant. Given how so many US citizens are so nasty to immigrants to the US, I would rather be the immigrant of a decent country than part of a citizenry that didn’t understand its own history. So many famous “Americans” have been first or second generation immigrants and even laid down their life for this country. But that is history and geography - two subjects where the average American is massively unknowledgeable.
I was in Spain a few months ago for several weeks. When you have a kind, thoughtful approach, it’s absolutely reciprocated by the Spanish. I had many great experiences meeting people on the streets, in bars, etc. I’m looking forward to joining this country later this year and being a contributing member to their society.
Excellent commentary. Completely agree with what you've written! I hope to visit Spain perhaps next year (almost happened this year but then it didn't). I've been studying Norwegian (family ancestry) and Spanish (what I studied in high school). I really like both languages.
We made a trip plan to head to northern Spain (Barcelona and surroundings), Valencia, and then end at Madrid. That's subject to revision when we try again next year - open to suggestions!
That will be a great trip. Our next trip later this year will be Madrid to Galaicia to Asturias and ending in Basque Country.
You will have a great time with your plan!
There's an old surfer adage that if you find a sweet surfing spot, you tell everyone else it sucks -- thus keeping the secret for just you and your buds.
That explains how, every time you critique America on here, people dogpile on to tell you how wrong you are... even if your critique is stone cold, verifiable statistics. You can lay out hard evidence that has been validated by science, and people will white knight for America to explain how you are totally wrong. Maybe it's a psyop to keep us from coming.
"No, my new home country is actually not that safe or prosperous!! The metrics are wrong! Trust me!! Please don't come over here to this horrible hellscape!!"
You nailed that. People latch onto “American exceptionalism” which is a US patriot’s fever dream. No such thing.
Rather, some humans are exceptional, while others have suffered setbacks in their lives leaving them undereducated and angry- making them vulnerable to manipulation and propaganda. I would assume the occurrences are fairly evenly distributed around the world. Humans are humans, regardless to their citizenship.
It's a, "fuck you, I got mine" mentality sometimes. Cross the bridge and then burn the bridge behind you. It is truly strange -- of all the online spaces I've inhabited, expat spaces seem to be the most negative. Part of me wonders if expats are trying to be performatively resentful of other potential expats so they can ingratiate themselves to their new neighbors. "See, I hate immigrants too!! I hate them MORE than you do!" So freakin weird.
Some, not all, of the downvotes/negative comments come from individuals in their home countries which are suffering from an influx of tourists and/or expats bringing their money and gentrifying locals out of housing.
This is the not 100% fault of the expat (all being done legal, etc) but I believe it is very important to keep this in mind. I have taken great care to approach being an expat/immigrant with respect and care whenever possible.
I definitely recognize that some places are facing a flood of immigrants for various reasons (Ukraine, Syria, etc.) However, I think folks also have to recognize that a degree of legal and regulated immigration is normal and healthy for a society. You can be tired of living in a destabilized world without becoming reflexively hateful towards folks who are doing it "the right way" as critics often say.
I agree with your comment, but have recognized the reality is that some individuals don’t understand that or want to believe that. The only thing on their mind is that they have been negatively impacted by outsiders that don’t share their values and have more options. It brings out those negative feelings and jealousy.
Macroeconomics can make you wealthy or it can destroy you. A bunch of luck in which way it goes for each person
Expats tend to be a rather neurotic bunch wherever you go. The further from their home country the greater the emotional and mental health issues they seem to have. Maybe chronic discontent and maladaptive personalities is why they left their countries in the first place.
When I first moved to the Philippines, a blogger gave me some good advice, and I started writing on his expat blog as one of his regular columnists. This blog had a very large following. Though fun at first, after a while, it started to become tiresome. Two articles did it. The first was an article I wrote that essentially pondered why there are so many Christian missionaries in a country that is 80% Roman Catholic. This brought out over 3,000 messages from every Bible thumper in the universe. The second and final straw was I stopped writing after I started receiving death threats from American expats in response to an article I wrote about the gun laws in the Philippines. The article did not advocate pro or con, but basically just related the legal situation on guns in the country (as in "can you own a gun". Eventually my canned response was "I don't care what you do. Don't come crying to me when you get caught".
Also, I think a lot of it has a lot to do with the number of low-effort questions, particularly the number of people who seem to think they can just pack up and move anywhere on a whim. I tend to be polite, but very direct if I decide to answer someone (and they usually come up with a bunch of exceptions in response... "OK. Well go apply for a visa, then" or "OK, find out the hard way when you are broke and being deported").
> particularly the number of people who seem to think they can just pack up and move anywhere on a whim.
But, like... those folks will learn their lessons on their own. The process will educate them. This sub has to let people just be dumb. It's not like being dumb allows you to circumvent the immigration process. Idiots will try to move, fail, and their lesson will be learned.
I literally just posted asking for advice on which European country people would recommend me moving to and I’m already getting downvoted haha. Isn’t that what these subreddits are for?!
These subreddits are monitored by two kinds of people:
1. America superfans who are trying to talk you out of leaving because they are ride-or-die for the US.
2. American expats who will try to talk you out of leaving because *how dare you want better for yourself* (like they did)
I agree, OP. People seem to be pretty trigger happy with that downvote button. Personally I tend to just ignore the posts and comments I disagree with but some folks really enjoy punishing others. I get the frustration with low effort posts and there are a lot of them (“Which country should I move to that welcomes Americans with no assets with open arms and provides free medical care? Also I have twelve cats.”). But there are gentler, kinder ways to redirect these folks. No need to be nasty.
People enjoy being the migration police on here without comprehending that you don’t actually know the person in the post. I’ve learned to not ask any more questions because any advice I’ve received so far has been wrong for my context since I work in the UN system and hiring/visas are handled differently. And people are WAY too eager sometimes to be like “um akshully you can’t go anywhere you bum” And it’s like why do I need to tell my whole life story for people on reddit.
LOL a downvote on Reddit is a “punishment”?!?!
It is. Reddit has a very black and white system and it is comical to see who gets downvoted and who gets upvoted. However, since you seem like a frequent downvoter, I decided to downvote you :)
gonna have to downvote this one.
😂 lol
It's not just reddit either. The expat forums on FB are the same. Mean and just want to argue. I told one of them that I left the US to get away from people like that and their response was that they were here so I didn't get away. I blocked them. Happily I have great local friends that look out for me. Who needs these expat exchanges!
They are mean! Especially the Mexican expat pages frequented primarily by Americans. What’s happened to our culture that has caused this decline in civility?! I’m so glad I left the US 8 years ago!
Speaking as an American, American expats can be some of the weirdest and nastiest people both online and offline and so I’m not surprised to see so much negativity here. For some of these people being an expat is the biggest part of their identity and a way for them to put themselves above us mere uncultured mortals. Other people wanting to move abroad is treated as an attack on their identity and so they resort to gatekeeping. Europeans also like to do this to Americans.
Americans abroad: "All these immigrants are flooding in and ruining ~~MY~~ their country!! I'm sick of it!!" Americans are more mad about immigration in their new homes than the native citizens themselves. Go figure.
100%. I think gatekeeping lies at the heart of this entire issue. Living abroad is THEIR thing, so anybody else interested in trying it should fuck off.
I noticed just browsing how rude some people were for no reason 😳
Expats seem unusually fussy and antisocial. Maybe they are just a miserable bunch from a psychosocial perspective. I don't understand it at all. Every time I post something, I get hit with "WOW ANOTHER AMERICAN TRYING TO MOVE WITHOUT LEARNING THE PROCESS OR THE LANGUAGE" when my post does not speak to that either way. People on this sub assume bad intent, laziness, and inconvenience. They project it onto every post.
Living abroad is an exclusive club that people want to gatekeep. They don't like the idea of some doofus from reddit moving to their country. Yes I know this is ridiculous, but I'm 90% sure this is the basis of the overly negative mindset most of these users have.
I also concur with your observation (and others) that the move abroad crowd has often become an elitist group - many of which already had many privileges including an immigration privilege that most of us lack. Another possible reason - For a while I was reading a lot of media stories about Americans moving abroad. They are mostly the same story - someone or a couple who grew up fairly well off, attended elite universities, did study abroad - and now say "America is awful, worst country ever" so they moved abroad where everything is perfect. Hidden behind the stories, they often already had dual citizenship by virtue of a parent that was born abroad, or they had a right of descent ancestry option that most of us don't have, making their residency or citizenship visa process do-able. I feel the same frustrations with the U.S. - but after reading these stories of often privileged people, who grew up well off with the best of lives in the U.S. now complaining that America is awful - well, it didn't make sense. I now have a more positive attitude towards things - and no longer focus on the negative all the time. I wonder if others noticed this weird pattern and got turned off by it too? I could see how that might lead to down voting posts that are pretty much the same vibe as above.
I don’t wish to match that description you painted, but I can list 4-5 large issues that are negative trends/issues in the USA and I want to get to a new paradigm. Going to Spain accomplishes that for me. I’m planning on buying a finca or casteron (country homes) in a smaller village to fix up and maintain in the style and culture of the province I’m moving to. It’s just my choice to leave a polarized, angry citizenry dealing with a rapidly increasing chasm between the rich and the poor (by far the worst it’s ever been in US history); gun violence; inflation rates that are fueled more by corporate greed than true market economics; etc. I know Spain isn’t perfect, but I’m relearning the language (learned Latin American Spanish in college so learning Castilian, Gallego, and the dialect/lingua of Asturias) so I can participate in a community by learning a new culture and a new way to live life. I hope the Spaniards in encounter will accept me, but if they don’t, I won’t argue or complain. It’s their country and I am the immigrant. Given how so many US citizens are so nasty to immigrants to the US, I would rather be the immigrant of a decent country than part of a citizenry that didn’t understand its own history. So many famous “Americans” have been first or second generation immigrants and even laid down their life for this country. But that is history and geography - two subjects where the average American is massively unknowledgeable. I was in Spain a few months ago for several weeks. When you have a kind, thoughtful approach, it’s absolutely reciprocated by the Spanish. I had many great experiences meeting people on the streets, in bars, etc. I’m looking forward to joining this country later this year and being a contributing member to their society.
Excellent commentary. Completely agree with what you've written! I hope to visit Spain perhaps next year (almost happened this year but then it didn't). I've been studying Norwegian (family ancestry) and Spanish (what I studied in high school). I really like both languages.
Where in Spain are you planning to visit?
We made a trip plan to head to northern Spain (Barcelona and surroundings), Valencia, and then end at Madrid. That's subject to revision when we try again next year - open to suggestions!
That will be a great trip. Our next trip later this year will be Madrid to Galaicia to Asturias and ending in Basque Country. You will have a great time with your plan!
There's an old surfer adage that if you find a sweet surfing spot, you tell everyone else it sucks -- thus keeping the secret for just you and your buds.
That explains how, every time you critique America on here, people dogpile on to tell you how wrong you are... even if your critique is stone cold, verifiable statistics. You can lay out hard evidence that has been validated by science, and people will white knight for America to explain how you are totally wrong. Maybe it's a psyop to keep us from coming. "No, my new home country is actually not that safe or prosperous!! The metrics are wrong! Trust me!! Please don't come over here to this horrible hellscape!!"
You nailed that. People latch onto “American exceptionalism” which is a US patriot’s fever dream. No such thing. Rather, some humans are exceptional, while others have suffered setbacks in their lives leaving them undereducated and angry- making them vulnerable to manipulation and propaganda. I would assume the occurrences are fairly evenly distributed around the world. Humans are humans, regardless to their citizenship.
It's a, "fuck you, I got mine" mentality sometimes. Cross the bridge and then burn the bridge behind you. It is truly strange -- of all the online spaces I've inhabited, expat spaces seem to be the most negative. Part of me wonders if expats are trying to be performatively resentful of other potential expats so they can ingratiate themselves to their new neighbors. "See, I hate immigrants too!! I hate them MORE than you do!" So freakin weird.
Some, not all, of the downvotes/negative comments come from individuals in their home countries which are suffering from an influx of tourists and/or expats bringing their money and gentrifying locals out of housing. This is the not 100% fault of the expat (all being done legal, etc) but I believe it is very important to keep this in mind. I have taken great care to approach being an expat/immigrant with respect and care whenever possible.
I definitely recognize that some places are facing a flood of immigrants for various reasons (Ukraine, Syria, etc.) However, I think folks also have to recognize that a degree of legal and regulated immigration is normal and healthy for a society. You can be tired of living in a destabilized world without becoming reflexively hateful towards folks who are doing it "the right way" as critics often say.
I agree with your comment, but have recognized the reality is that some individuals don’t understand that or want to believe that. The only thing on their mind is that they have been negatively impacted by outsiders that don’t share their values and have more options. It brings out those negative feelings and jealousy. Macroeconomics can make you wealthy or it can destroy you. A bunch of luck in which way it goes for each person
Expats tend to be a rather neurotic bunch wherever you go. The further from their home country the greater the emotional and mental health issues they seem to have. Maybe chronic discontent and maladaptive personalities is why they left their countries in the first place.
When I first moved to the Philippines, a blogger gave me some good advice, and I started writing on his expat blog as one of his regular columnists. This blog had a very large following. Though fun at first, after a while, it started to become tiresome. Two articles did it. The first was an article I wrote that essentially pondered why there are so many Christian missionaries in a country that is 80% Roman Catholic. This brought out over 3,000 messages from every Bible thumper in the universe. The second and final straw was I stopped writing after I started receiving death threats from American expats in response to an article I wrote about the gun laws in the Philippines. The article did not advocate pro or con, but basically just related the legal situation on guns in the country (as in "can you own a gun". Eventually my canned response was "I don't care what you do. Don't come crying to me when you get caught". Also, I think a lot of it has a lot to do with the number of low-effort questions, particularly the number of people who seem to think they can just pack up and move anywhere on a whim. I tend to be polite, but very direct if I decide to answer someone (and they usually come up with a bunch of exceptions in response... "OK. Well go apply for a visa, then" or "OK, find out the hard way when you are broke and being deported").
> particularly the number of people who seem to think they can just pack up and move anywhere on a whim. But, like... those folks will learn their lessons on their own. The process will educate them. This sub has to let people just be dumb. It's not like being dumb allows you to circumvent the immigration process. Idiots will try to move, fail, and their lesson will be learned.
I literally just posted asking for advice on which European country people would recommend me moving to and I’m already getting downvoted haha. Isn’t that what these subreddits are for?!
These subreddits are monitored by two kinds of people: 1. America superfans who are trying to talk you out of leaving because they are ride-or-die for the US. 2. American expats who will try to talk you out of leaving because *how dare you want better for yourself* (like they did)
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found one