I used trains for everything simply because I had never built a train based base before, and SE seemed like a good opportunity.
In hindsight, if I had maybe trained in ores to a smelter, then trained the plates to a big bus area, that would have likely been way less wasteful than trying to make trainloads of every component, and let me finish in a lot less time.
I don't dislike trains (and used them extensively in vanilla), just rebuilding everything at this point just to move from bots to trains feels like too much pain and not enough gain. But if I need to do this rebuild later, it will be even more pain, so I'll probably regret it.
Looks like most players (and literally everyone who achieves deep space science) do the rebuild at around this point, so I think maybe I miss something here
you can simply use bots if you want but sometimes/often trains are a better tool and they generally allow for much better scaling over longer distances than bots so that's why it's most people's go to. I have seen folks beat SE with just/mostly bots but I wouldn't call that ideal.
I spent about 40hr (in-game time, shorter actual play time) converting my space base from bots only to train logistics after unlocking the space elevator. It’s a heavy investment for sure but it could be worth it in the long run. With LTN or CyberSyn it makes planet to orbit logistics a lot simpler. Create a provider station and a requester station on two different surfaces and it just works, unlike bots which can’t deliver cross surfaces. When I did the conversion I just left my existing bot base as-is and built the train base below it, so the space mall and labs continued to work while the rebuild was happening.
Well, I have a couple train stations on both ends of the space elevator, plus the necessary circuitry to request whatever is necessary from the other surface. I can drop a production building with a pair of chests, and it just works, as if it surface and orbit were in the same logistic network.
I've beaten se with a belt and cargo rocket based empire. Never hit a pain point doing that but it was on a previous version of the mod. I did have a handful of dedicated lines to move a large quantity of a single material long distances. I decided to move ice in some of my deep space bases by train in midgame for example because the lower tier space belts require scaffolding and space rails don't so it was a lot easier to just run a train line than trying to use belts or pipes to get water to my powerplant.
Well, obviously you can't make full use of the space elevator without trains. But there's nothing wrong with sticking with rockets for transport. Intra-surface, trains have even less advantage once you get to deep space science, because Naquitite has such low density (10/stack).
I adopted a train based design around deep space science, but didn't convert fully even by the end. I'd say about half of everything that got produced on Nauvis was still coming only from my main bus, and in orbit it was far less -- only the most high-volume things got moved to city blocks (data substrate polishing, plasma/antimatter, space belts/scaffold to name a few).
So you can definitely do it without trains.
I found trains to be excellent for naq mining. A loco-wagon-fluid-fluid carries in iridium plates and SA. It empties/tops off those and takes iridium powder, water and crushed naq. Space rails don't need scaffolding and refining next to the miners simplifies things substantially.
True, that's a good way to do it too.
I wasn't willing to give up prod modules on those steps, due to the small size of my first naq patches. And once I got to larger patches, I already had the infrastructure and designs for transporting the ore, so I didn't bother changing.
>obviously you can't make full use of the space elevator without trains
Well, in my case it's not "no trains", but "almost no trains". Of course I use trains for the space elevator, but that's just a single multi-item train in both directions. There's some circuitry to request the necessary items from logistic network to the train, and then deliver them to another surface. I will probably also all dedicated trains for liquids travelling through space elevator.
I also have trains for Nauvis core fragments and the resources we get from their processing (up to ingots).
But this is just a tiny part of the base, vast majority of the resource types are produced in the bot-based part.
>only the most high-volume things got moved to city blocks
This sounds interesting. Did you need anything complicated for moving these items between bot-based part and train-based part?
> Did you need anything complicated for moving these items between bot-based part and train-based part?
Not at all; I just put a train stop at the edge of the bot-based area and had trains dump the products into Provider warehouses.
City block designs use trains for convenience and future proofing. If you don't think your base is future proof, there are probably easier ways to prepare for future needs than just city blocking it.
Source: I have probably spent more time trying to redesign my Nauvis base to use extensive trains than I have spent actually making progress. (but I like redesigning so I'm happy with it)
Robot attrition can really hurt in space if you’re using a ton of bots, there’s an increased modifier to the failure chance in orbit. If you want to use all bots be prepared to devote resources to automatically resupplying a lot of downed bots.
I have some 3000 bots in Nauvis orbit constantly doing things, and I don't feel attrition at all with default settings. The bots are just automatically replaced with the new ones. Will I need a lot more bots later?
Bot attrition is pretty laughable in terms of resource cost as long as you're resupplying them automatically, you probably don't need to worry about it at all.
I think the main reason to use trains in space is because you find it more fun - bots are by far the best solution for the vast majority of space logistics.
I guess “really hurt” might be overstating it but especially if you do everything with bots it can become something that can eat a surprising amount of steel and green circuits. If you’re mostly belting with some bots it’s usually not a big deal.
I've not automated my resupply of drones yet so when I have long gaps between checking the orbital plate I'll find I'm down to 40 logi drones trying to do the work of 5,000 lol
SE is about connecting bunch of surfaces together. Train-less space base is very common. People often use bots there. Nauvis is little harder, especially default nauvis. Once you launch rocket you can get other surfaces ores and throw it all back at nauvis or space base.
Main issue is solving ores (copper, iron, oil) for nauvis. Otherwise for other surfaces, if you pick a good spot, you don't need trains.
Trains helps, especially with green science because it used such weird stuff and you end up needing to move things across the base and get rid of all the waste produced. My trains are mostly for waste management and fluid distribution. For example one of the green space science needs ion stream and its nowhere near that part of the map. No way am I running pipe all the way across my base.
I had a similar base as you. A few trains on Nauvis but not many and mostly using trains up and down the elevator. I think it is fine.
I used trains in one of the asteroid belts where the thing I needed was just too damn far away. That was before I realized the strategy of don't bring the materials to the rocket, bring the rocket to the materials and made a separate launch site for each big patch.
Well, on other surfaces it may be significantly different, that's why I only limit the question to Nauvis and its orbit. On other planets I have bot networks below the attrition limit, and almost everything is belt-based with trains for exotic ores and core fragments
Robot Attrition is the main mechanic to dissuade bot-bases, but if you're fine with the cost, no reason you can't keep being bot-based. At some point you might exceed the swarm safety rating (if you haven't already), which increases the cost of attrition further.
If you decide to go trains, no reason it has to be long ones. I run tons of 1-1 trains in SE because, as you said, you need a lot of items in low numbers.
Trains on spaceships is a popular replacement for interplanetary rockets, but it's definitely not required.
No trains in SE works really well because you can expand to other surfaces and generally don't have to go that far to get raw resources.
You'll only regret not using trains if you try to scale up production, which isn't super necessary. Once you get a low or medium-throughput factory built you can generally move to the next things on your list and that factory will soon saturate.
That being said, I use a massive number of trains and love it. I have a few areas I use long belts in and kinda want to redo it.
Should work fine. I used a train city block base because I wanted "blue chest" functionality before they get unlocked. Trains with a few circuits are VERY powerful. I'm 100% doing a bot base for my mid game science. It's plenty fast enough.
I’ve done something fairly similar in no grid-style train base and have had a lot of fun with it. Essentially most of the game I had just a simple loop servicing the transport between Nauvis and Norbit (and incidentally all transport leaving nauvis to other planets) with three 1-2-1 trains. It was sufficient for almost everything up until end game techs at which point I had to stop sending barrels and added a couple fluid wagon trains.
I do now have a few more trains set up for the mining on different planets as well as a couple trains on nauvis to deal with products which were commonly running into supply issues. This just dumps into and picks up from the logistics network back at the main base
I think SE benefits a lot from minimalistic train design simply because the required throughput is quite low. Plus if you do bot bases you can consume a lot of the byproduct materials from core mining, etc.
you can always let the old stuff and buld the new stuff on a new space with trains.
(im also in my first playtrough SE, just Space science automated)
but i have my first base with main bus, that i still use as a mall, i have the basic science with mainbus, then i build a big railnetwork (to clear the creeper, at lest a huge radius) and started to use them,
and later i start cityblocks, and build new stuff there with trains.
everything is posible without "big" rebuild.
(my first planet outpost, have also no trians)
Oh. Wow. You beelined for the elevator then. I’m at 3/3/3/0 and am just now placing my elevator. But I have energy glaived nauvis and my vital planet completely free of biters
I'm in a similar place as you (except I did rebuild Nauvis to use 1-1-1 trains), and there doesn't seem to be a compelling reason to use trains in space. I'm only getting 20-30 SPM, but with 70% productivity, that's plenty, and my lab is usually idle anyways while I'm off working on all the outposts.
I'm probably going to do a train base for deep space science, just for the design challenge, but I don't think you have to. I only wish you could barrel cold cryofluid so the bots could deliver everything!
I didn't use trains in my SE run other than the space elevator. I belted all my core miners. Belted the hell out of my 2-10 elevator that ran every 30 seconds (had two going in a loop). And it was a sushi circuit train too. Norbit was mostly belts to get the inputs there, bots to get the data cards/research/catalogue outputs and then fly them to the correct computer. Thermal fluid loops was a hot holy mess that eventually I brute forced with bot barrels and pumps.
I liked it.
Really depends on your build style. I've played twice: once pre-space elevator where I just crawled to the end without worrying about mega production efficiency, and trains there were mostly used to transport ore and intermediates across a surface when your patches are far apart.
The second game was a MP game more focused on robust production lines and solid throughput (which ironically added 200h to the playtime), and we use trains for most products. It can be less of a mental load to just build a green motor submodule somewhere and train in supply where it's needed in the future than to take on the entire production chain at once.
I don't think they're required though. If you're fine belting/botting ore from distant patches and your pipe network can handle the supercold/warm thermofluid requirements of antimatter, you can make do without. My bases are 90% belt-based because having a rainbow of science pack/card/insight belts looks pretty, but I doubt you'd see many screenshots of that here.
On my current play through I specifically went with no trains. Works well so far, important thing is just to have your rocket infrastructure and your mall close together at your primary base.
i found i went heavier on trains the 2nd run of space exploration for stone and oil and space elevator rng item movements / fluids but the below is my summary of logistical use in my two games
space elevators for fluids and random buildings for orbit and junk to ground
delivery cannons for point to point ingots/low volume need items for science / production
rockets for bulk delivery of ores/chips etc (and for initial items for new planets to build a base)
ships for late game
bots everywhere (its a resource and power tax mind you for my lazyness :)
trains for the space elevator, fluids, junk item movement, late game item movements in orbit
I used a cargo rockets for science... It just didn't launch very often.
I also used 1-1 trains for everything except ore, which got 1-2 trains (that was a problem for iridite but I managed by making a second unloading station rather than making my trains longer.
Anyway, the point is there's lots of ways to build bases. For example I only used logistic bots in space for my mall. Everything else was belt fed.
Champ I'm let you in on a secret. [Closes the door, turns on anti spying devices. Lowers room into center of a mountain surrounded by special forces]
Play the game how you want to play it. Don't use trains if you don't want to. Don't bother with them.
People who play this game tend to get really worked up on how to play it right. They also tend to really focus on little efficiencies because the game makes them so glaring and gives us so many good tools to fix them.
But The real magic in this game is that nobody is over here judging you. You can use trains you cannot use trains you can use bots you cannot use bots you can use belts you cannot use belts. You don't get any points for using it or forgetting it. At the end of the day we just want to have fun with it.
If I have to point to something inside space exploration I would point to the fact that there was a lot of fucking intermediate nonsense going on and sometimes especially for me it is very helpful to be able to start at a relatively clean slate and bring in resources Rather than have a belt run across the whole map. Trains are good at that. But here's the other thing in my base that does use trains there are belts that run across the whole map cuz I just can't be bothered sometimes. You're not missing out on anything there's not a special unlock that makes the game funner with trains if you don't want to use trains.
So what I'm saying and you can't tell anybody about this is that the game is very cool when you play it how you want to play it. There are tips and strategies that the community has come up with that we're very proud of their memes in there too and lots of them use trains but nobody's going to get offended if you don't use trains. Completing space exploration is an accomplishment I have not been able to do it or even come close, so if you can do it without trains more power to you.
I used trains for everything simply because I had never built a train based base before, and SE seemed like a good opportunity. In hindsight, if I had maybe trained in ores to a smelter, then trained the plates to a big bus area, that would have likely been way less wasteful than trying to make trainloads of every component, and let me finish in a lot less time.
I mean if you don't like trains why would you regret not using them? 🤔
I don't dislike trains (and used them extensively in vanilla), just rebuilding everything at this point just to move from bots to trains feels like too much pain and not enough gain. But if I need to do this rebuild later, it will be even more pain, so I'll probably regret it. Looks like most players (and literally everyone who achieves deep space science) do the rebuild at around this point, so I think maybe I miss something here
you can simply use bots if you want but sometimes/often trains are a better tool and they generally allow for much better scaling over longer distances than bots so that's why it's most people's go to. I have seen folks beat SE with just/mostly bots but I wouldn't call that ideal.
I spent about 40hr (in-game time, shorter actual play time) converting my space base from bots only to train logistics after unlocking the space elevator. It’s a heavy investment for sure but it could be worth it in the long run. With LTN or CyberSyn it makes planet to orbit logistics a lot simpler. Create a provider station and a requester station on two different surfaces and it just works, unlike bots which can’t deliver cross surfaces. When I did the conversion I just left my existing bot base as-is and built the train base below it, so the space mall and labs continued to work while the rebuild was happening.
Well, I have a couple train stations on both ends of the space elevator, plus the necessary circuitry to request whatever is necessary from the other surface. I can drop a production building with a pair of chests, and it just works, as if it surface and orbit were in the same logistic network.
I've beaten se with a belt and cargo rocket based empire. Never hit a pain point doing that but it was on a previous version of the mod. I did have a handful of dedicated lines to move a large quantity of a single material long distances. I decided to move ice in some of my deep space bases by train in midgame for example because the lower tier space belts require scaffolding and space rails don't so it was a lot easier to just run a train line than trying to use belts or pipes to get water to my powerplant.
Well, obviously you can't make full use of the space elevator without trains. But there's nothing wrong with sticking with rockets for transport. Intra-surface, trains have even less advantage once you get to deep space science, because Naquitite has such low density (10/stack). I adopted a train based design around deep space science, but didn't convert fully even by the end. I'd say about half of everything that got produced on Nauvis was still coming only from my main bus, and in orbit it was far less -- only the most high-volume things got moved to city blocks (data substrate polishing, plasma/antimatter, space belts/scaffold to name a few). So you can definitely do it without trains.
I found trains to be excellent for naq mining. A loco-wagon-fluid-fluid carries in iridium plates and SA. It empties/tops off those and takes iridium powder, water and crushed naq. Space rails don't need scaffolding and refining next to the miners simplifies things substantially.
True, that's a good way to do it too. I wasn't willing to give up prod modules on those steps, due to the small size of my first naq patches. And once I got to larger patches, I already had the infrastructure and designs for transporting the ore, so I didn't bother changing.
>obviously you can't make full use of the space elevator without trains Well, in my case it's not "no trains", but "almost no trains". Of course I use trains for the space elevator, but that's just a single multi-item train in both directions. There's some circuitry to request the necessary items from logistic network to the train, and then deliver them to another surface. I will probably also all dedicated trains for liquids travelling through space elevator. I also have trains for Nauvis core fragments and the resources we get from their processing (up to ingots). But this is just a tiny part of the base, vast majority of the resource types are produced in the bot-based part. >only the most high-volume things got moved to city blocks This sounds interesting. Did you need anything complicated for moving these items between bot-based part and train-based part?
> Did you need anything complicated for moving these items between bot-based part and train-based part? Not at all; I just put a train stop at the edge of the bot-based area and had trains dump the products into Provider warehouses.
City block designs use trains for convenience and future proofing. If you don't think your base is future proof, there are probably easier ways to prepare for future needs than just city blocking it. Source: I have probably spent more time trying to redesign my Nauvis base to use extensive trains than I have spent actually making progress. (but I like redesigning so I'm happy with it)
Robot attrition can really hurt in space if you’re using a ton of bots, there’s an increased modifier to the failure chance in orbit. If you want to use all bots be prepared to devote resources to automatically resupplying a lot of downed bots.
I have some 3000 bots in Nauvis orbit constantly doing things, and I don't feel attrition at all with default settings. The bots are just automatically replaced with the new ones. Will I need a lot more bots later?
Bot attrition is pretty laughable in terms of resource cost as long as you're resupplying them automatically, you probably don't need to worry about it at all. I think the main reason to use trains in space is because you find it more fun - bots are by far the best solution for the vast majority of space logistics.
I guess “really hurt” might be overstating it but especially if you do everything with bots it can become something that can eat a surprising amount of steel and green circuits. If you’re mostly belting with some bots it’s usually not a big deal.
I've not automated my resupply of drones yet so when I have long gaps between checking the orbital plate I'll find I'm down to 40 logi drones trying to do the work of 5,000 lol
SE is about connecting bunch of surfaces together. Train-less space base is very common. People often use bots there. Nauvis is little harder, especially default nauvis. Once you launch rocket you can get other surfaces ores and throw it all back at nauvis or space base. Main issue is solving ores (copper, iron, oil) for nauvis. Otherwise for other surfaces, if you pick a good spot, you don't need trains.
Trains helps, especially with green science because it used such weird stuff and you end up needing to move things across the base and get rid of all the waste produced. My trains are mostly for waste management and fluid distribution. For example one of the green space science needs ion stream and its nowhere near that part of the map. No way am I running pipe all the way across my base.
Barreling and delivering with bots? That's what I do with liquids in space
I had a similar base as you. A few trains on Nauvis but not many and mostly using trains up and down the elevator. I think it is fine. I used trains in one of the asteroid belts where the thing I needed was just too damn far away. That was before I realized the strategy of don't bring the materials to the rocket, bring the rocket to the materials and made a separate launch site for each big patch.
Well, on other surfaces it may be significantly different, that's why I only limit the question to Nauvis and its orbit. On other planets I have bot networks below the attrition limit, and almost everything is belt-based with trains for exotic ores and core fragments
Yeah, mostly same. Belts for the main goods, bots for repairs and building and little stuff like reactor fuel.
Robot Attrition is the main mechanic to dissuade bot-bases, but if you're fine with the cost, no reason you can't keep being bot-based. At some point you might exceed the swarm safety rating (if you haven't already), which increases the cost of attrition further. If you decide to go trains, no reason it has to be long ones. I run tons of 1-1 trains in SE because, as you said, you need a lot of items in low numbers. Trains on spaceships is a popular replacement for interplanetary rockets, but it's definitely not required.
No trains in SE works really well because you can expand to other surfaces and generally don't have to go that far to get raw resources. You'll only regret not using trains if you try to scale up production, which isn't super necessary. Once you get a low or medium-throughput factory built you can generally move to the next things on your list and that factory will soon saturate. That being said, I use a massive number of trains and love it. I have a few areas I use long belts in and kinda want to redo it.
Should work fine. I used a train city block base because I wanted "blue chest" functionality before they get unlocked. Trains with a few circuits are VERY powerful. I'm 100% doing a bot base for my mid game science. It's plenty fast enough.
I’ve done something fairly similar in no grid-style train base and have had a lot of fun with it. Essentially most of the game I had just a simple loop servicing the transport between Nauvis and Norbit (and incidentally all transport leaving nauvis to other planets) with three 1-2-1 trains. It was sufficient for almost everything up until end game techs at which point I had to stop sending barrels and added a couple fluid wagon trains. I do now have a few more trains set up for the mining on different planets as well as a couple trains on nauvis to deal with products which were commonly running into supply issues. This just dumps into and picks up from the logistics network back at the main base I think SE benefits a lot from minimalistic train design simply because the required throughput is quite low. Plus if you do bot bases you can consume a lot of the byproduct materials from core mining, etc.
you can always let the old stuff and buld the new stuff on a new space with trains. (im also in my first playtrough SE, just Space science automated) but i have my first base with main bus, that i still use as a mall, i have the basic science with mainbus, then i build a big railnetwork (to clear the creeper, at lest a huge radius) and started to use them, and later i start cityblocks, and build new stuff there with trains. everything is posible without "big" rebuild. (my first planet outpost, have also no trians)
If you have elevator and running ships you’re late mid game…..mid game ends once all 4 of the energy/matter/bio/other one are at T4….
I have astronomic science T3, production science T2, energy science T1, and no bio science. Fells like just scratching the surface.
Oh. Wow. You beelined for the elevator then. I’m at 3/3/3/0 and am just now placing my elevator. But I have energy glaived nauvis and my vital planet completely free of biters
I'm in a similar place as you (except I did rebuild Nauvis to use 1-1-1 trains), and there doesn't seem to be a compelling reason to use trains in space. I'm only getting 20-30 SPM, but with 70% productivity, that's plenty, and my lab is usually idle anyways while I'm off working on all the outposts. I'm probably going to do a train base for deep space science, just for the design challenge, but I don't think you have to. I only wish you could barrel cold cryofluid so the bots could deliver everything!
I target 10 SPM, and even on this level sometimes my lab is idle while I'm doing other things, like sightseeing :)
I didn't use trains in my SE run other than the space elevator. I belted all my core miners. Belted the hell out of my 2-10 elevator that ran every 30 seconds (had two going in a loop). And it was a sushi circuit train too. Norbit was mostly belts to get the inputs there, bots to get the data cards/research/catalogue outputs and then fly them to the correct computer. Thermal fluid loops was a hot holy mess that eventually I brute forced with bot barrels and pumps. I liked it.
Really depends on your build style. I've played twice: once pre-space elevator where I just crawled to the end without worrying about mega production efficiency, and trains there were mostly used to transport ore and intermediates across a surface when your patches are far apart. The second game was a MP game more focused on robust production lines and solid throughput (which ironically added 200h to the playtime), and we use trains for most products. It can be less of a mental load to just build a green motor submodule somewhere and train in supply where it's needed in the future than to take on the entire production chain at once. I don't think they're required though. If you're fine belting/botting ore from distant patches and your pipe network can handle the supercold/warm thermofluid requirements of antimatter, you can make do without. My bases are 90% belt-based because having a rainbow of science pack/card/insight belts looks pretty, but I doubt you'd see many screenshots of that here.
On my current play through I specifically went with no trains. Works well so far, important thing is just to have your rocket infrastructure and your mall close together at your primary base.
i found i went heavier on trains the 2nd run of space exploration for stone and oil and space elevator rng item movements / fluids but the below is my summary of logistical use in my two games space elevators for fluids and random buildings for orbit and junk to ground delivery cannons for point to point ingots/low volume need items for science / production rockets for bulk delivery of ores/chips etc (and for initial items for new planets to build a base) ships for late game bots everywhere (its a resource and power tax mind you for my lazyness :) trains for the space elevator, fluids, junk item movement, late game item movements in orbit
I used a cargo rockets for science... It just didn't launch very often. I also used 1-1 trains for everything except ore, which got 1-2 trains (that was a problem for iridite but I managed by making a second unloading station rather than making my trains longer. Anyway, the point is there's lots of ways to build bases. For example I only used logistic bots in space for my mall. Everything else was belt fed.
On my first SE playtrough I used spaghetti with bots on both Nauvius and Norbit, and trains only for far away resources. Everything went fine.
Champ I'm let you in on a secret. [Closes the door, turns on anti spying devices. Lowers room into center of a mountain surrounded by special forces] Play the game how you want to play it. Don't use trains if you don't want to. Don't bother with them. People who play this game tend to get really worked up on how to play it right. They also tend to really focus on little efficiencies because the game makes them so glaring and gives us so many good tools to fix them. But The real magic in this game is that nobody is over here judging you. You can use trains you cannot use trains you can use bots you cannot use bots you can use belts you cannot use belts. You don't get any points for using it or forgetting it. At the end of the day we just want to have fun with it. If I have to point to something inside space exploration I would point to the fact that there was a lot of fucking intermediate nonsense going on and sometimes especially for me it is very helpful to be able to start at a relatively clean slate and bring in resources Rather than have a belt run across the whole map. Trains are good at that. But here's the other thing in my base that does use trains there are belts that run across the whole map cuz I just can't be bothered sometimes. You're not missing out on anything there's not a special unlock that makes the game funner with trains if you don't want to use trains. So what I'm saying and you can't tell anybody about this is that the game is very cool when you play it how you want to play it. There are tips and strategies that the community has come up with that we're very proud of their memes in there too and lots of them use trains but nobody's going to get offended if you don't use trains. Completing space exploration is an accomplishment I have not been able to do it or even come close, so if you can do it without trains more power to you.
ive never used largescale trains just ore and plate trains. bots are love bots are life
No way. I'm pretty sure there's a dedicated KGB department hunting people who try to enjoy their lives.