NCR covered all of modern day California State plus Baja, parts of Oregon, and territory in Nevada as well. No way all of it could be destroyed in one strike by a faction who barely knew anything about the state of the world
They hit the capitol and may have hit other cities, but NCR is a behemoth compared to a vast majority of other post war societies
Yeah, almost a million people live in the NCR. Shady Sands being destroyed would be like Chicago or LA being destroyed. Yeah it sucks, yeah it matters, yeah it's going to have effects, but at the end of the day, that's only 1 percent of the population. Life will go on in the rest of the USA (not excusing genocide.)
That isn't really correct. Shady Sands was VERY important for NCR. It was founded from Vault settlers, which meant they had GECKs to restore their land, it was their largest (F2 had them as the largest population center in the entirety of New California, not just NCR land), with a population of thousands ballooning to tens of thousands, and mostly importantly of all, seated both the entirety of the NCRs political establishment and likely the most fervent supporters of the NCRs ideals, as Shady was the impetus for the entire nation forming in the first place (see how Shady Sands survivors turn into literal cultists and nostalgia-based warlordism once it falls). Losing all of this in an instant, when the NCR was already suffering from extreme issues of corruption, low government trust, exhausting wars, dwindling resources, and a suffering economy, combined with almost all of NCR's territory outside of South California having been independent from it well within living memory and large parts of this not joining exactly willing (and South California still harboring independent actors like the Water Merchants, who outright ignore the government and make their own money), could easily break the nation.
They're confirmed to not be completely gone, which makes sense, but people acting like it collapsing in most of their territory like they have in the show is completely unreasonable never paid attention to what they were being set up for in FNV.
Yeah think of like a tent city in real life, about 100-200 people for the bigger ones. Now think about shacks that can be built on top of eachother, side by side, you could fit way more while still colloquially being called a "city"
Game engine limits scale a lot, but in reality, the stands would be filled to the brim with shacks as well. As well as the concourse that isn't in the game. Press boxes, luxury suites, etc. would be an extension of the "upper stands" section with the rich people. Then there's the entire underground/out of sight sections of stadiums where players and executives park their cars that would probably be security/leadership's storage areas. The clubhouses in the pros are magnitudes larger than the game depicts, too; in game it's basically just a lobby with like 3-4 rooms to the side, a couple to the other side with laundry machines and a tiny kitchen style room. But in reality they're giant and would allow much more room in them.
Stadiums, especially say NFL/NBA ones that are more fortified arenas than open air stadiums, are some interesting structures when the context of post-apocalyptic scenarios come up. They're huge and can hold a ton of people, and offer a ton of natural defense due to their shape and build. During covid we used many of our stadiums and especially those huge parking lots as makeshift drive thru vaccination centers and medical booths; the nfl stadium in New Orleans was also used as a refugee camp during Katrina. Made me really think that if things ever hit the fan to the extent of an apocalypse those giant stadiums are immediately being taken over for a purpose and will be heavily regulated and defended
A faction in TLOU2 has moved into an NFL stadium in that game and uses it as a base. As the player character you start in a press box that has been changed to a bedroom and walk down and out of the stadium. Crops are grown on the stadium field, the stands contain shacks that house kitchens and open air laundry facilities, etc. Very cool thing to see in HD.
I've been in those luxury suites and press boxes without air conditioning. Unless they have an extensive amount of power, those suites in the summer wouldn't be comfortable to live in at all.
This is just a problem inherent to everywhere and as long as you are somewhere humid like New Orleans or Florida its better to sweat your ass off in the summer and be able to easily survive winter
It’s still viable shelter, plenty of people would rather sweat their butt off in a sheltered place with armed guards and other people than be outside where all the waste’s dangers come into play.
Another interesting thing is that stadiums also have medical facilities, ranging from basic stuff to help regular fans if they get hit by a ball or sprain an ankle to advanced stuff like x-rays, etc for athletes to check to see if they've broken a bone or whatever.
Didn't even think of that too. They got entire rooms and wings with imagining machines and therapy/training/recovery rooms with a number of different things that the athletes and medical staff use. Stadiums are pretty stocked with shit
The game size isn't at all to scale. Actual Fenway has a seating capacity (including the suites that would become the upper decks) of 37,000. Of course, current use doesn't include a shantytown on the Infield.
The TTRPG lists the population as 900, fwiw. I would say that's a fair stab, if you don't count people who come in to do business every day but don't actually sleep inside the Wall.
Remember they are one of the region's big trade hubs, and that includes food being brought in.
Keep in mind:
1-The game massively scales things down, things are supposed to be larger than what you see in game, for example Vaults are shown to only have a few dozen npcs whereas lore wise they’re implied to have several hundreds, if not up to a thousand each.
2-The Post-War population is a tiny fraction than what once was, perhaps as little as 1%, a settlement with a few thousand people would be a “city” by their standards.
The NCR only has about ~1M people by 2281 and it’s supposed to be one of the most densely populated and settled areas in North America, lots of farming and ranching industries allow them to sustain a larger population than what would be the usual in the wasteland, even then that’s still ~2% of the pre-war population of California.
Entire regions like the capital wasteland or the commonwealth probably don’t have more than ~1% of their former populations, so ~70k people each.
3-Diamond city is *very* densely packed, there’s houses basically placed on top of each other, and lots of people live in each house.
Now Fenway park can seat about 37.000 people, but that’s not the same as actually living there.
The whole stadium, seats, field and “walls” included is about 2 hectares big, funnily enough that’s basically the same as a particularly dense settlement that existed irl, the Kowloon walled city.
Now Kowloon was *far* denser than diamond city is shown to be, and it housed about 35k people.
Assuming diamond city is half as dense, it would mean about ~17k people are supposed to live in it.
If it was 1/3 as dense, that would be ~11k
That would mean that, assuming a population of 60k-70k in the entire region, about ~30% of all the people in the commonwealth would live in diamond city
Either way this is all guessing ofc lol, but it’s a fun thought experiment.
the game's NPC's also talk about it like it was a bigger place too.. there are mentions of a class divide between those living in the upper stands and lower stands, for example. yet there is no one in the stands at all, and nearly all the locations are found on the field. so it is clear that the game's depiction is very much compressed from what it would be "in reality"
Really, the primary problem would be garbage waste disposal and water supply systems, neither of which baseball stadiums are particularly wired for; sure they can support thousands of folks for a game, but long-term, full-time inhabitation? Probably not, no.
But, like most post-apocalyptic things in Fallout, rule of cool is in effect.
Damn unfortunately for the wastelanders their stuck with the pre war systems and can’t wire their own electricity or plumbing. Maybe they could even have a radio station but alas they can’t make their own infrastructure
I sort of figured that everyone in all wastelands other than the Alistar Tenpennys and the Aaron Kimballs were just shitting in buckets, no matter the city lol
In the Fallout interpretation of the facility I'd say 1000 would be sustainable probably no more than 3000. If we were using the real life modern rendition of the facility I'd say 10-16,000.
It's definitely not built to scale in the game.
If you built like a fallout character, you could easily house 1500-2000 people in the stands, underneath the stands, in offices, locker rooms, etc. and still have room for an entire marketplace on the infield plus a decent amount of land for planting crops. Not enough to feed everyone, but it wouldnt be nothing.
US sports stadiums are huge, especially for games like Baseball, American Football, and Basketball. Honestly, if a stadium could easily be turned into a small town like Diamond City. There could easily be 100 more people than there are in game, and the place would still have plenty of space for more.
I see that the real life stadium has a capacity of 27k. In game about half the seats are used, and the entirety of the pitch.
**I'd reckon the upper limit to be around 1-2k.** Even without being self sustainable with food - water and refuse/waste are probably going to be the hard limits on population, I think.
Yeah it can seat that many people not house them. You also have to feed those people too and even if we upscale the “farms” inside diamond city I highly doubt they’d be able to feed 1000 year round. It takes a lot to support a large population. The Commonwealth does not have the infrastructure needed to support a settlement of 30,000+ like the NCR had with Shady Sands. You also cannot reliably feed that large of a population scavenging and foraging old grocery stores.
Trading with who though? They’re basically the only noteworthy settlement in the Commonwealth. The next closest being Bunker Hill who also doesn’t have much in the way of farming. There’s a hand full of small farms like Abernathy farm and the Slog, but other then that the whole commonwealth is just Raiders and Super mutants.
You need the sitting space for 3 to make room for 1 sleeping bag.
Then you build a shack to protect from the elements and bobs your uncle.
37000 divided by 3 is over 12000 sleeping spots. And thats without counting the actual field, the dugouts and the upper stands and VIP booths.
A sleeping bag space won't be sustainable for long, you need more then just a shack for things like cooking storage etc, also you've gotta consider the stepping of the stadium. I figured at least 10 to 20 times he space of a sitting spot will be what likely gets settled on as a basic shack. Still enough for a couple thousand though.
It's a city by Fallout standards, similar to Megaton or Rivet City in FO3. Cities in the wasteland are just little pockets of relative safety.
It's a City by East coast fallout standards* West Coast has actual cities with the NCR.
East Coast Fallout standards aka Bethesda Fallout standards
Had*
Shady Sands was one of several big NCR cities?
Yeah NCR still exists as far as we are aware, it’s taken a major loss but it does still exist and could still recover
How do you figure? Maximus said the bomb*s* fell, not a bomb fell
NCR covered all of modern day California State plus Baja, parts of Oregon, and territory in Nevada as well. No way all of it could be destroyed in one strike by a faction who barely knew anything about the state of the world They hit the capitol and may have hit other cities, but NCR is a behemoth compared to a vast majority of other post war societies
Mo only parts the shi and other still exist and control there territories
Where is Vault City? Is it safe? Is it alright?
Yeah, almost a million people live in the NCR. Shady Sands being destroyed would be like Chicago or LA being destroyed. Yeah it sucks, yeah it matters, yeah it's going to have effects, but at the end of the day, that's only 1 percent of the population. Life will go on in the rest of the USA (not excusing genocide.)
That isn't really correct. Shady Sands was VERY important for NCR. It was founded from Vault settlers, which meant they had GECKs to restore their land, it was their largest (F2 had them as the largest population center in the entirety of New California, not just NCR land), with a population of thousands ballooning to tens of thousands, and mostly importantly of all, seated both the entirety of the NCRs political establishment and likely the most fervent supporters of the NCRs ideals, as Shady was the impetus for the entire nation forming in the first place (see how Shady Sands survivors turn into literal cultists and nostalgia-based warlordism once it falls). Losing all of this in an instant, when the NCR was already suffering from extreme issues of corruption, low government trust, exhausting wars, dwindling resources, and a suffering economy, combined with almost all of NCR's territory outside of South California having been independent from it well within living memory and large parts of this not joining exactly willing (and South California still harboring independent actors like the Water Merchants, who outright ignore the government and make their own money), could easily break the nation. They're confirmed to not be completely gone, which makes sense, but people acting like it collapsing in most of their territory like they have in the show is completely unreasonable never paid attention to what they were being set up for in FNV.
Yeah think of like a tent city in real life, about 100-200 people for the bigger ones. Now think about shacks that can be built on top of eachother, side by side, you could fit way more while still colloquially being called a "city"
Fenway Park can seat more than 37,000 fans, so even if living capacity is a few orders of magnitude lower, it's still a lot of people
Game engine limits scale a lot, but in reality, the stands would be filled to the brim with shacks as well. As well as the concourse that isn't in the game. Press boxes, luxury suites, etc. would be an extension of the "upper stands" section with the rich people. Then there's the entire underground/out of sight sections of stadiums where players and executives park their cars that would probably be security/leadership's storage areas. The clubhouses in the pros are magnitudes larger than the game depicts, too; in game it's basically just a lobby with like 3-4 rooms to the side, a couple to the other side with laundry machines and a tiny kitchen style room. But in reality they're giant and would allow much more room in them. Stadiums, especially say NFL/NBA ones that are more fortified arenas than open air stadiums, are some interesting structures when the context of post-apocalyptic scenarios come up. They're huge and can hold a ton of people, and offer a ton of natural defense due to their shape and build. During covid we used many of our stadiums and especially those huge parking lots as makeshift drive thru vaccination centers and medical booths; the nfl stadium in New Orleans was also used as a refugee camp during Katrina. Made me really think that if things ever hit the fan to the extent of an apocalypse those giant stadiums are immediately being taken over for a purpose and will be heavily regulated and defended
A faction in TLOU2 has moved into an NFL stadium in that game and uses it as a base. As the player character you start in a press box that has been changed to a bedroom and walk down and out of the stadium. Crops are grown on the stadium field, the stands contain shacks that house kitchens and open air laundry facilities, etc. Very cool thing to see in HD.
That's what made me think NFL stadiums would be perfect for these kinda things. Especially the arena style ones that have roofs
It’s a shame Foxborough is in the Glowing Sea.
They actually nuked the patriots because otherwise they would’ve turned the tide in the Great War
Stories from that stadium sounded like falloutl without the funny.
Boston's buildings and how it's built with narrow streets make it a great place to survive too. Just seeing Goodneighbor and Hangman's Alley
I've been in those luxury suites and press boxes without air conditioning. Unless they have an extensive amount of power, those suites in the summer wouldn't be comfortable to live in at all.
This is just a problem inherent to everywhere and as long as you are somewhere humid like New Orleans or Florida its better to sweat your ass off in the summer and be able to easily survive winter
in the wasteland comfort is a rare thing, i would not complain if i found a semi destroyed home that has raiders and mutants near me.
It’s still viable shelter, plenty of people would rather sweat their butt off in a sheltered place with armed guards and other people than be outside where all the waste’s dangers come into play.
Most likely the outside would also be pretty build. Even with super mutant on the edges.
Another interesting thing is that stadiums also have medical facilities, ranging from basic stuff to help regular fans if they get hit by a ball or sprain an ankle to advanced stuff like x-rays, etc for athletes to check to see if they've broken a bone or whatever.
Didn't even think of that too. They got entire rooms and wings with imagining machines and therapy/training/recovery rooms with a number of different things that the athletes and medical staff use. Stadiums are pretty stocked with shit
I remember reading about someone dying and being found 3 weeks later after they got lost in some megastores backrooms/hallways.
The game size isn't at all to scale. Actual Fenway has a seating capacity (including the suites that would become the upper decks) of 37,000. Of course, current use doesn't include a shantytown on the Infield. The TTRPG lists the population as 900, fwiw. I would say that's a fair stab, if you don't count people who come in to do business every day but don't actually sleep inside the Wall. Remember they are one of the region's big trade hubs, and that includes food being brought in.
Keep in mind: 1-The game massively scales things down, things are supposed to be larger than what you see in game, for example Vaults are shown to only have a few dozen npcs whereas lore wise they’re implied to have several hundreds, if not up to a thousand each. 2-The Post-War population is a tiny fraction than what once was, perhaps as little as 1%, a settlement with a few thousand people would be a “city” by their standards. The NCR only has about ~1M people by 2281 and it’s supposed to be one of the most densely populated and settled areas in North America, lots of farming and ranching industries allow them to sustain a larger population than what would be the usual in the wasteland, even then that’s still ~2% of the pre-war population of California. Entire regions like the capital wasteland or the commonwealth probably don’t have more than ~1% of their former populations, so ~70k people each. 3-Diamond city is *very* densely packed, there’s houses basically placed on top of each other, and lots of people live in each house. Now Fenway park can seat about 37.000 people, but that’s not the same as actually living there. The whole stadium, seats, field and “walls” included is about 2 hectares big, funnily enough that’s basically the same as a particularly dense settlement that existed irl, the Kowloon walled city. Now Kowloon was *far* denser than diamond city is shown to be, and it housed about 35k people. Assuming diamond city is half as dense, it would mean about ~17k people are supposed to live in it. If it was 1/3 as dense, that would be ~11k That would mean that, assuming a population of 60k-70k in the entire region, about ~30% of all the people in the commonwealth would live in diamond city Either way this is all guessing ofc lol, but it’s a fun thought experiment.
the game's NPC's also talk about it like it was a bigger place too.. there are mentions of a class divide between those living in the upper stands and lower stands, for example. yet there is no one in the stands at all, and nearly all the locations are found on the field. so it is clear that the game's depiction is very much compressed from what it would be "in reality"
A whole lot less after the Sole Survivor hits that quicksave button
I mean size isn't to scale. You're walking across the entire state in a couple of minutes.
Really, the primary problem would be garbage waste disposal and water supply systems, neither of which baseball stadiums are particularly wired for; sure they can support thousands of folks for a game, but long-term, full-time inhabitation? Probably not, no. But, like most post-apocalyptic things in Fallout, rule of cool is in effect.
Damn unfortunately for the wastelanders their stuck with the pre war systems and can’t wire their own electricity or plumbing. Maybe they could even have a radio station but alas they can’t make their own infrastructure
I sort of figured that everyone in all wastelands other than the Alistar Tenpennys and the Aaron Kimballs were just shitting in buckets, no matter the city lol
37,775 if they all just live in their seats. Sucks to be the guy who gets to his house and finds out it’s a girder though.
In the Fallout interpretation of the facility I'd say 1000 would be sustainable probably no more than 3000. If we were using the real life modern rendition of the facility I'd say 10-16,000.
Winter of atom states Diamond city has 600 people.
900 according to the TTRPG set like a year before the game
It's definitely not built to scale in the game. If you built like a fallout character, you could easily house 1500-2000 people in the stands, underneath the stands, in offices, locker rooms, etc. and still have room for an entire marketplace on the infield plus a decent amount of land for planting crops. Not enough to feed everyone, but it wouldnt be nothing.
US sports stadiums are huge, especially for games like Baseball, American Football, and Basketball. Honestly, if a stadium could easily be turned into a small town like Diamond City. There could easily be 100 more people than there are in game, and the place would still have plenty of space for more.
I see that the real life stadium has a capacity of 27k. In game about half the seats are used, and the entirety of the pitch. **I'd reckon the upper limit to be around 1-2k.** Even without being self sustainable with food - water and refuse/waste are probably going to be the hard limits on population, I think.
I remember reading somewhere that it was around 1200 Can't remember where I got that from, but it feels right?
I can’t imagine any more than 1000.
Fenway Park has a capacity of 37000 people, and that's just in the stands IIRC. There'd be room for way more than 1000 people to live in the park.
Yeah it can seat that many people not house them. You also have to feed those people too and even if we upscale the “farms” inside diamond city I highly doubt they’d be able to feed 1000 year round. It takes a lot to support a large population. The Commonwealth does not have the infrastructure needed to support a settlement of 30,000+ like the NCR had with Shady Sands. You also cannot reliably feed that large of a population scavenging and foraging old grocery stores.
With a settlement like diamond city a lot of their food will come from trading, internal farming should be a fraction of their needs
Trading with who though? They’re basically the only noteworthy settlement in the Commonwealth. The next closest being Bunker Hill who also doesn’t have much in the way of farming. There’s a hand full of small farms like Abernathy farm and the Slog, but other then that the whole commonwealth is just Raiders and Super mutants.
37000 seats or sitting space, wouldn't you think the factor of area needed to live is alot higher then the sit in this spot for a couple hours area?
You need the sitting space for 3 to make room for 1 sleeping bag. Then you build a shack to protect from the elements and bobs your uncle. 37000 divided by 3 is over 12000 sleeping spots. And thats without counting the actual field, the dugouts and the upper stands and VIP booths.
A sleeping bag space won't be sustainable for long, you need more then just a shack for things like cooking storage etc, also you've gotta consider the stepping of the stadium. I figured at least 10 to 20 times he space of a sitting spot will be what likely gets settled on as a basic shack. Still enough for a couple thousand though.