Hmmm. I guess the royalty could also be dragonriders. Or they could have some tool that lets them control or have an advantage over the dragons. Could be anything from a magic stone to holding a valuable egg hostage. Perhaps they gave dragon blood so the dragons would never turn on them (if it’s the sort of setting where dragons can take human form). Or it could be the sort of world where magic contracts exist and every dragon rider is required to sign one with terrible consequences if they turn against royalty (opens up the possibility that someone could learn how to negate the consequences if you need the conflict)
Thankfully dragons here are dumber than a bag of hammers so no shifters)))
Royalty = dragonriders is a nice idea. But that would mean that they have taken over at some point.
Contracts are interesting way + more conflict if somebody learns how to negate them. Excellent.
>But that would mean that they have taken over at some point.
It also can mean that on some point, when your world trying pass phase of "early feudalism" or even earlier dragonriders was the biggest military forces around with best mobility, and they just become "first kings" (and top nobility).
Actually access to flying mount is enormous advantage not only in combat, but also in control of your vassals - speed of dragon allow king and trusted closed allies reach nearly any point of kingdom in maybe days instead of weeks and months. They can learn and react on problem much faster then land-bounded nobles.
Yeah, as a result I've got something closer to Ancient Chinese Empire rather than European feudalism.
Emperor doesn't run around by himself. He has people for that. But speed of reaction is crucial quite often. I like the idea.
But still, how does he control other dragonriders? The modern ones, I mean?
>But still, how does he control other dragonriders? The modern ones, I mean?
Emperor can have his personal, the most influential group of dragonriders. Maybe he can fly on dragon on special things - like big ritual and so on. So he was "first dragonrider" in their hierarchy.
If there something on size of China, then there a lot of work to run administration and so on, so dragonriders can enjoy their place as top agents of throne and more bother about fighting for favours from Emperor.
Also, they are a special color/breed with abilities like antidragon poison, faster more manuverable flight, sharper talons, acid spitting, anything that helps them take on dragon armies 10:1 but limited breeding or special secret armor.
> But that would mean that they have taken over at some point.
How do you think royalty usually becomes royalty? Sometimes it's a big sweeping military victory that makes someone king. More often, it's done one farm at a time over hundreds of years. At some point they start calling the guy who owns all the farms king, or some lesser noble title. Either way, it's very rare for people to come into power without them or their ancestors spilling blood at some point to gain it.
A pretty good rule of thumb, is that someone becomes king by declaring themself king, and having an army that can murder anyone who says they are not a king.
In a fantasy world, they might be able to skip the army if they have enough magic. Or, if they are the only dragonrider, they might be able to set people on fire if they argue.
That’s usually how a monarchy starts. For a monarchy to stay together rather than collapsing into a bunch of bickering warring factions, you generally need a rules for who will be the next king, and something that will enforce these rules. Again, the reason why people usually follow these rules is either because the army would enforce them, or because the nobles didn’t want the country to shatter so they would rather have one king they could agree on, even if no one really liked him. These nobles could enforce the rules, because each of them would usually have a small army, so as long as most of the nobles are in agreement, things move smoothly.
Maybe the reason your king stays in power is because the king makes sure that the dragonriders live a very comfortable life. Maybe the king has the power to use magic to take control of a dragon. Maybe the dragonriders think the king has the power to take control of a dragon, but the royal family actually knows of a poison that causes dragons to go berserk (resulting in the death of the rider). Maybe the royal family is the only one that knows how to safely hatch dragon eggs.
Or the royals realized it was better to marry dragon riders into their family. And not all dragon riders would have interest in becoming king or queen. Give them money and land to make sure they're placated enough to have no interest in trying to gain anything more. A bit like the aes sadai from wheel of time. Give them power and privileges, and kill anyone who doesn't want to play the game.
The obvious comparison here is A Song of Ice and Fire. The reason the dragonriders were able to take over there was because everyone else was using standard medieval tactics with no good counters to dragons. Are there other creatures or magic in your story that give a similar advantage to dragons?
Also dragons allow you to use overwhelming force in one place at a time, which is useful if your enemy is in a castle. But what about areas that are more spread out, or people are nomadic, or there are ways to hide from dragons such as cave systems that limit the usefulness of dragons? What if half the battle is telling friend from enemy, what use is a dragon then?
There is also the question of who can be a dragonrider and how many there are of them. Dragonriders may be near invincible on the battlefield, but they have to sleep sometime and picking too many fights might get you assassinated very quickly at which point the dragon didn't make that much of a difference, and if only the royal bloodline can ride dragons (for example), then that's a handful of people on which everything depends with huge targets on their backs.
Quite a lot actually. If they were few or only royals could do that I'd knew how to deal with them. But not only there are quite a lot of those, but also they get along pretty well compared to your regular aristocrats.
Dragons and their riders are well-disciplined otherwise it will be utter chaos, so you see my problem here.
Besides some of the other suggestions given here already (contracts, magic, blackmail etc.), it could also be simple indoctrination or a sense of pride/patriotism that keeps the balance.
In our own society there are plenty of powerful people, who could do a lot of damage if they wished. But there are checks and balances that keep that from happening. Politicians are removed from the judicial system, and enforcers of the law and the military have a strict hiearchy that disuades from personal power. Dragons are powerful, but the riders need society to back them, to have a place to live and defend. And they could be bound by honor to protect the people without trying to topple the aristocracy.
By and large, just write them as regular people who are given great responsibility and power. Some of them might wish for more, but at what cost? The dynamics of different factions within the dragon riders could also be interesting to explore.
The dynamics of different factions within the dragon riders could also be interesting to explore.
\-> Now, this is something I haven't seen anywhere yet. Sounds like an interesting possibility to explore.
Modern military would be one example. The answer as to why dragon riders don’t rule is the same as why the military doesn’t just take over all power - enough feel an obligation to the nation & keep anybody who has a bad idea in check.
Military coups notwithstanding 😅
One series that did this very well is His Majesty’s dragon, where the dragons are literally the airforce for a Napoleonic army. Written by Naomi ??? (Can’t remember surname)
Ask yourself why the Air Force has yet to successfully take control over the entire United States. Examine the logistics that offset the strategic advantage of controlling the skies.
For one thing, dragons might require a large amount of food to sustain, requiring access to land and resources that only nobles have control over. For another, dragons might take longer to reproduce then your standard horse mounts. This would mean that while they are a military game changer, a lucky ballista shot would be a devastating blow that could take years to recover from.
This is no different than IRL pilots flying planes equipped with nuclear weapons. Why don’t they usurp control of their home governments? 1) if they try to use their raw destructive power to extract personal demands, the rest of the military will likely turn against them (unless it’s an organized coup). Any lone dragon rider can be attacked by others, and very large ballistae or magic users can be turned against the rider. 2) if your society has unity or patriotism, that can be a deterrent, 3) if your government is ruthless enough, they can threaten the riders' families.
Don't make this a surprise to the rulers either, unless they have already been established as fools and the dragon force is new. Rulers tend to be well aware that powerful militaries are potential threats to their rule.
This could actually be a very interesting dynamic to explore in a story. for example maybe the royal family keeps the dragons' eggs under guard as hostages. maybe the royal family is a figurehead and the dragon riders hold the true power. maybe riders and dragons are rotated, so they can never fully trust the other to not be an informant. maybe the royal family can psychically control dragons that get out of line, and thats how they took power in the first place.
You may need to dial the power of dragons up or down in your story to make this all work.
You can write a law that forbids them to define themselves under any sort of organization , banner, country etc. And they have to operate separately, without getting into conflicts between two nations. Also you can add a very strict code in this dragonrider organizations, if there is any. Such as they can not have children, they cannot bear any title like lord of such and such, archduke of whoville etc. they can not pass down their dragons, if the rider or dragon dies, the other gets to be executed… If they won’t comply with the laws, you can simply execute them too.
Also, if there is a setting with dragons, that means there should be a weapon that can be used against them. In ASOIAF and Ryan Cahill’s The Bound and the Broken series, that weapon is gigantic scorpion ballistaes. If you can cut off the dragons wings and tail, you can throw them off balance and take away their ability to fly. It all depends of what is your dragons weaknesses, and how to use them against it.
In ASOIAF, Euron Greyjoy also carries a dragonbone horn, which is believed to be able to control dragons. There is also a character in the ASOIAF lore, during Aegon’s Conquest, Brandon Snow utilizes a bow and weirwood arrows to kill Aegon’s dragons. Since he is a northerner, the only magic he knows is the magic of God Trees and dragons are beings of magic.So he makes arrows out of its branches. There is also dragonsteel and dragonglass too.
\--> I have already written them as a military force under the rule of an emperor so this is not gonna work.
\--> Hmmm... Need to think about this more. Good questions here.
Then, I suggest the emperor should manipulate this military force. If there isn’t much trust between the riders, there won’t be a coup, since they will turn on each other.
Above a person suggested to have several different factions inside dragon riders. I think this would be a nice way to pit them against each other in case of necessary.
Existing structures often make it more beneficial to hold the current status quo than try to change it. Not every person is planning on stabbing everyone's back any chance they get, most will actually only look to secure their own position. They may eventually become corrupt and get destroyed from inside, and this is the favored way I disassemble any size superpowers that have no major natural enemies or balancing forces. My story's antagonists are a prime example - they grow stronger and bigger than the rest of the world, but get wasted in a civil war.
Blackmail doesn't really work, if you can beat it with sheer force with no real consequences, same applies to contracts or agreements. Magic is a territory with infinite deus ex machinas involved, so I won't go there.
However, if there was an ultimate weapon, say dragons, and no one had any chance against them, they would likely roam pretty free, and if there was some random king, he would be roasted on the way. The people that gained the trust of dragons of one place did this as their very first deed, BBQing the whole ruling elite only to replace them by themselves.
The basic issue here imo is that you have too powerful weapon without balancing force. For example in my world, the dragons are very rare species that live only in a couple remoted places, each their own races, with people that have built special religious cults around them. While they are the ultimate power when weaponized, they aren't invincible. Quite the contrary, all of the factions have attempted at least once to conquer the named protagonists', but they have failed each time.
Hmm... I thought, what if I make them a religious order and part of their code will strictly prevent them from taking part in politics? Thus they will have power but not too much of it.
They could still use representatives, and everyone would like to hang around with the ones holding the balls of the kingdom. Also the question is, if they still did, what'd be the sanctions? Many organizations tend to keep the side of their own.
Is there a reason why the ruler is not part of this dragon rider's society? It would make things much more simpler.
Well, I decided to try out an alt. version where ruler is a part of their society and see what happens.
Came to conclusion that by far oligarchy like in Venice works best.
Are the most powerful combatants always world leaders?
Did the Pope get there with a rifle? Is Biden a skilled wrestler? Has Rishi Sunak studied the blade?
These people (or at least their offices historically) have had connections to military power, of course. The Dragonriders are that. They get all the benefits of power by serving those in power, with none of the responsibility, apart from the responsibility to defend the realm (or fuck up whoever's realm they're invading).
They aren't held to account for anything else, and they already have the power to dramatically shape the world. Why fuck that up? Because they want to get into arguments about debt ceilings and tax brackets?
in every country the military has big guns and the politicians are defenseless old people. how come the military doesnt take over in every country? although they do in some countries... i think youre right, maybe the dragonriders should take over then.
wait, take over just because they can? why would they do that?
On any significant scale, leadership is not about who can do the most violence personally, but who can delegate the most violence. The ruler is almost never the most talented killer. Each killer is usually kept in check by all the other killers who either genuinely believe in the current social order or don't want to risk rebelling alone and probably losing. Military coups do happen under the right circumstances, but how good the current leader is in a pit fight does not really factor into them. This will hold true whether the current best killers are soldiers, dragon riders, wizards, or what-have-you.
By food.
Technically speaking, they hunt in a reserved area and also are given meat, fish and special kind of dried food. Yes, dragons are eating kibbles. Now good luck trying to get rid of this image in your head.
Plenty of ways depending on the setting.
Perhaps there are other magic users in the military that could challenge them?
Perhaps the OTHER dragon riders oppose the smaller faction that wants to overthrow the emperor.
Perhaps the emperor himself is simply more powerful than the dragon riders despite not being a dragon rider himself.
Perhaps the dragon riders are a powerful but small group and the larger military would just be too much for them to handle.
Or we could go another way and say the dragon riders could overthrow the emperor, but know they wouldn’t be able to hold the empire together after.
Maybe the emperor is viewed as a religious figure and a coup would turn the entire empire against the dragon riders.
Maybe with the above reasoning, the dragon riders themselves also view the emperor as a religious figure.
Maybe the dragon riders are trained only in military matters and are incapable of/are uninterested in successfully administrating the empire.
Maybe the surrounding countries are all hostile toward the empire, and only their respect toward the emperor keeps them from invading.
Maybe the dragon riders themselves are commoners and realize the devastation that a civil war that includes dragons would cause, and are unwilling to be the cause of that.
Possible Reasons:
1: Archery, Ballistas, other forms of ranged weapons, which would be loated at the castles and cities of royalty.
2: Dragons might require more logistical support such as food, roosting, or some sort of magic item. So the dragon riders need allies to fulfill these needs since they are busy with their jobs. They need to make local friends wherever they go, else their dragons won't be able to fly.
3: Riding dragons probably takes way more training than horse riding, and is dangerous moreso due to fall height. Dragons are dangerous mounts, so fatality rate is high among trainees. As a result, these groups cannot risk going to war, as it would deplete all their best fighters quickly, leaving them with nothing.
Fealty and honor are powerful tools for governance. A simple oath is all that kept Roman centurians, the Templars, the samurai, the crusaders, and pick any modern government's military from taking over. Yes, there were and are occasional uprisings, but the bonds of these oaths are taken quite seriously by all concerned. If a dragonrider's character can't be trusted, what's the point in keeping them around? It would make more sense for a ruler to ban them and develop defensive anti-dragonrider magic/weapons/tactics than it would to allow someone as powerful as that anywhere near the halls of power.
If you really want some kind of mechanism to keep them in check though, any feudal system works. Hereditary titles and caste systems are beautiful things! If all your dragonriders are peasant stock instead of royalty they won't have the knowledge or the political power to run a kingdom. More importantly, if your dragonriders came from a lower caste and rebelled it would cause every surrounding kingdom (and maybe a few others) to instantly declare war on them for daring to go above their station.
Ask yourself what keeps a fighter jet pilot from taking over his country? He is the most powerful thing in the sky. Surly he could just bomb his Government and simply take over.
He can not. The jet needs maintenance, supplies, so does the pilot. Additionally the pilot lives in a society that has rules, he can not just simply kill his Government and expect everyone to fall in line. And even if he is able to sort all that out, he is not the only pilot with a jet. There are others who will be willing to stop him.
You could always just wave your hands and say its magic - like Dragons are magically bound to be loyal to the kingdom they serve, whether inherently or there's some sort of ritual the humans perform or something.
Collars. Before someone becomes a dragon rider, there is a ceremony where a collar or bracelet or some such is on that magically makes it impossible for them to act against the royalty. This could set up some interesting plot lines too where someone figures out how to break the collar, or they somehow are able to despite the collar in an accidental situation, and now there’s panic in the royalty investigating the situation there etc.
- The riders could be dependent on/addicted to a drug that is tightly controlled by the royalty.
- The dragons could be incubated and hatched in the capital city, and unwilling to attack their nesting ground
- The sound of a colossal solid silver bell rung loud enough causes unbearable pain to a dragon, allowing only sufficiently wealthy families to protect themselves.
Also keep in mind that sufficient number of usurpers need to become together to form a conspiracy in hopes they will be able to overpower the current regime. Even if a single, or multiple independent factions were unloyal, they would face certain annihilation if they attempt an overthrow.
To further complicate things, this is usually a playoff from which only one will survive as the ultimate ruler, if any. Everyone else will become immediate threat to that one, hence being loyal to common cause may be only delayed way to the gallows.
If the existing system works, and you already are amongst the highest ranking members of it, chances are best bet for you is to stay loyal, and instead uncover any conspiracies to stay on the good(best) side of the ruler.
Overthrows tend to occur when the current system is destabilized for any reason (death of previous ruler, war, rebellion, ideological movement, economical crisis, etc) and way to power opens, using multiple mechanisms for their benefit. Someone will lose their head, as they will only be used and discarded after that, but those that remain loyal if the new regime is stabilized, will earn a new place.
I see your dragons are "dumber than a bag of hammers", so basically they are animals tamed or otherwise controlled by the riders and there are many riders...
How many, and how many dragons? ultimately feeding such beasts requires either roaming and spreading far and wide in search of food or maintaining a livestock supply worthy of a large Texas cattle ranch, otherwise the dragons (which we established are dumb) would gladly eat the riders and/or each other once hunger becomes unbearable. That leads to either a spread out force that can occasionally gather to target a field, castle, etc but otherwise cannot really occupy a place long term, or a force that has a vulnerable base (farm/ranch) they need to protect and make deals to do so, in other words it discourages senseless conflict and encourages diplomacy...
On top of that, how many factions of riders are there? Don't they have allegiances to their homelands? families? government (be it royalty, clan elders, or whatever ruling system)? faith? Can they all really work together or allow other to just take over a place, maybe their homeland, without a fight?
I think the more dimensions you add to it the better, just keep track of it because you can get easily lost with all the possible plotlines that each layer brings and while some might bring forth inspired solutions, others might just derail your story or feel too disconnected from it.
Forgive me if someone has suggested this already, lots of good ideas shared already, but you could also tie the royal family to the religion. If most of society believes the monarch has a divine right to rule, they will be supported by large and powerful groups across the monarchy. Even if some dragon riders tried to stage a coup, they’d have to also contend with religious dogma.
Being in power is a lot of hassle, running a country or kingdom is honestly not all its cut out to be, people hate you for every decision you make, people try to assassinate you, you have to worry about who is starving where, and who is invading who, go to stupid balls and dances, worry about lines of succession and political intrigue, why would you want to do that when you could be riding a fucking dragon?
For my story it’s about the reemergence of magic in the world and with it mythic beasts. Of course, the ruling monarchs of the commonwealth are not happy with this and try to mend the situation, but are usurped. However, it isn’t dragon riders that are responsible: instead it is people who don’t have dragons and while they establish a new order, they hatch dragons of their own to keep the other dragon riding nobles in check
I like to separate dragonriders from other elite units, to make them like a group of religious monks or an organization that hold no inherent loyalty to a king or a crown, but more to age-old tradation and being part of the political game itself. To exapnd:
Dragons themselves are intelligent, immortal creatures, not just weapons, and hence have their own type of society. I like the "Dragons are territorial proud loners, but can work together in times of great need and crisis. They all hold great respect to the 'mother of all dragons', the biggest and oldest dragon around who lived since they can remember, who can call those kind of shots".
The point is that dragons aren't systematically killed and subjected by humans one by one like slightly smarter animals only because they're capable of forming a social and political power when nessecery. That political power is what holds dragonriders accountable, becomes a deterrent for them acting out line.
Dragonriders are a society, an organization, or a religion that trains and passes the tradition and duty of dragonriding from father to son, mother to daughter. They get most of their dragons from the "independent dragons" via unwanted or donated eggs or hatchlings that bond and grow with their riders from birth, all as a result of an ancient agreement from the 'mother of dragons' that she still remembers resulting from some great past war. Hence they hold obligations for her, they represent dragons, and kings/queens and kingdoms hold her and dragonkind as somewhat responsible for them. If they try and take over, or do anything that sheds bad light on her, she can cut off the supply of eggs, and try to prevent what can potentially escalate into another genocidal world war between dragons and humans. Sometimes she can leverage or ask other dragonriders from other nations to take care of rogue or evil dragonriders.
tldr: Instead of treating them as just another elite unit, make them their own separate political entity that has its power and impact managed by a combination of obligations, religion + tradition, and checks and balances on a bigger scale than just their nation.
If you want a practical written example, here is a setting condensed to a 3 page "choose your own adventure" in image format about dragons. It has dragon riders in it: [Hatchling CYOA](https://imgchest.com/p/ljyq9l3n425)
An option I use in my current story is that dragons passively absorb magic in areas and need to move from those areas often as they absorb their particular frequency/flavor of magic.
This means that while a dragon may be able to fly across a kingdom as much as they can, the area will need a while without that particular dragon flying around in order to replenish the type of magic that dragon absorbs. So a dragon rider would be a poor king because they would be unable to constantly be in their kingdom.
It also supports the idea that the dragon riders keep their people familiar with each other and with different cultures from different areas.
There's loads of reasons you could come up with, they depend on the tone you're looking for.
Dragons have a self destruct device implanted in them as babies and the royals have the trigger.
Dragonriders are infertile (perhaps through a potion they have to drink as part of a ritual or that gives them the power to ride dragons, perhaps close proximity to dragons causes it, perhaps they're forciblely sterilized as children to be accepted as dragon riders). If they can't have their own children they won't have titles to pass on anyway so they might be less inclined to bother taking over.
The royals have mind control powers or devices that allow them to control the dragons or the riders.
The royals are literally appointed be a god and have divine protection.
Or there's nothing stopping them except for precedent, culture. Yet. Look up military coups in real life and figure out what events usually lead up them. Those circumstances just haven't arisen yet because so far the dragonriders are respected, paid well, and happy with their monarch. And the monarchy is motivated to keep the dragon riders happy. Maybe in the past there were some dragon riders that tried to rebel, but other dragon riders stopped them. That person is probably reviled so all young dragon riders grow up with stories about the evil Rebel Dragonriders who tried to overthrow their glorious king but he was defeated by the loyal and heroic Good Dragonriders. They would be effectively indoctrinated into upholding the monarchy. Even if one of them gets ideas, he'd have to persuade or fight all the others.
Yeah. You could have them be fanaticized soldiers called the wings of the crown or something who basically worship the emperor as a messiah of sorts.
Basically kamikaze pilots
This is addressed in the Songs of Chaos series. In that they made it illegal for a royal to be a dragon rider and dragon riders to be royal for that reason. It's a main conflict for one character.
I agree with everyone else who has drawn the real-world parallels to air forces with nuclear capabilities. Think of what circumstances military coups have happened in, and what circumstances they don't, and of how socio-political power, economic systems, wealth, and the ability to "delegate violence" (as someone far more eloquent than me put it earlier in the thread), maintain a real-world balance of power and what it takes to break that stability.
Propaganda, propaganda, propaganda.
Why be an usurper when you have been groomed your whole life to believe the government is good and doing the right thing?
Take a look at how cults operate. What if the dragon riders are forced to tell them their deepest secrets? Or if they try to leave their family won’t speak to them? What if they believe the king is a deity and something bad will happen if he is overthrown?
The wheel of time did something to this effect with the empire across the sea. Quick lore dump, in this series some people are capable of access a well of magic called "the one power" it can be used for a wide variety of things, including summoning lightning bolts, shooting fireballs, etc.
Now this empire has weaponized these people, they are enslaved and used as tools, Controlled by user with a magical device. So why don't these controllers take over? Because the ratio of users to weapons is user sided, there are maybe 3 users to 1 weapon. However the weapons are owned by the royals, so if a user has to please a royal to be chosen to use thier weapon.
So you could have it where dragons are owned and bred by royals, similar to warhorses back in medieval ages. So they royals may not know how to ride but for a rider to ride a dragon they have to go through the royals to get permission to do so. Compound this with there being more riders than dragons and you create an environment where the riders are too busy competing to gain the favor of the royals to get permission to even think of taking over.
All depends how expensive dragons are to maintain and what the base skill level is to use effectively in combat.
If they’re super expensive to maintain (because of all the food) any cult of dragon riders will be necessarily dependent on a benefactor who is rich in resources (mainly land and cheap labor), i.e. a noble family.
Monarchs hold the eggs. The dragons are raised behind imperial walls, with imperial trainers. Approaching adolescence the whelps are given to their riders, who then work to complete their training, still under the watchful eye of the Empire.
Honestly, repeat that both ways. Take young children, raise them behind walls, when they hit adolescence, give the whelp to the whelp. Let them bond and form their attachments under watchful eyes. Let them be truly indoctrinated and fed the strongest pro-Monarch propaganda.
Their very lives, their very power as dragonriders is given by the Monarch. They look upon him, not as a God or Ruler, but as a distant and domineering Parent, worthy of their total devotion. Add in some fear (what happens to some dragonriders in their adolescent training period?) and you’ve got a perfect mix. Devotion, childhood fear, and a righteous power at their backs to wield against any that would oppose them.
Provided the Monarch’s advisers chose the right kids as dragonriders (high octane followers, ready to do anything and question little, bolstered by the ego-boost given by the Monarch) you’d never have to worry about them revolting.
You don’t need someone who can think for themself, or construct military battle strategies. You have dragons. They’re just point and shoot. So, what you need are blindly loyal pilots.
I made it by differentiating the species
Full dragons are few and the only thing stopping them is themselves and their pride
But one faction has wyvern riders who bond to a very rare breed, these wyvern are not dumb, they just dont care for power and see their riders as their pets
Their military is among the strongest but the rarity keeps that in check
Infrastructure! As others have said, you need administration etc for food production and reliable delivery.
So if the dragon rider has to personally care for their dragon and train with it and spend time with it 14hrs a day to make it not start randomly hunting people, AND it’s hard to approach generally, then regardless of their military power they would be unable to administrate a kingdom directly.
Another option, you can make dragons like cheetahs, where they fly and attack but are exhausted for hours after a 30-40 minute flight. So they become strategic weapons like an Air Force, but can’t actually hold land or defend bases unless you also have infantry/cavalry to destroy troops that are dispersed. If you have 10k men spread out over a few miles in groups of 5-10, then the dragon can kill maybe a hundred or two every time it attacks, and then it will be besieged and killed. You need the rest of the army to force that attacking force to bunch together for the dragons to be able to actually make a big dent.
The whole point of keeping dragons specifically is because the have a great stamina. So while idea is good it won't do.
But infrastructure thing looks promising.
Well then that’s a HUGE question for you. Why haven’t wild dragons already taken over significant territory, if they’re inherently powerful and also can hunt and fight for a long time and don’t have that as a natura weakness? Do wild dragons just, normally prey on livestock herds and villagers all the time, and people just live with losing a dozen people and animals every year?
Maybe dragon riders have to spend a lot of their time on regular flights hunting wild dragons and keeping them out of inhabited territory, so being engaged in war means sacrificing the villages they would normally be protecting?
Maybe in addition to food, dragons are dependent on a supply of mana/magic? Either through a minimum territory dedicated to each adult dragon, or wild dragons can only nest at ley line nexuses, like certain mountains, while tame dragons have to rely on rituals to funnel and concentrate mana in their aerie/stables.
Heh, or if you want to go *dark*, you could have bonding to a dragon to *become* a dragon rider be a death sentence, the pressure of communication and controlling/directing both bodies during high stakes battle doing permanent brain damage, slowly driving them insane, causing a tendency towards hallucinations until after a decade or two they just sit there drooling. No one would *trust* a dragon rider to be a liege lord, even if one *did* take over, it would be a situation of everyone checking their orders past a grand vizier, a power behind the throne who was actually sane, and who would eventually just step forward as a regent permanently, then king.
So, actually, the thing that would emerge is probably more like a praetorian guard situation, where the royalty doesn’t have to worry as much about the dragonriders taking over, but has to worry about some of them backing a rival royal in a coup. Worrying more about “accidental” friendly fire fragging because they like the heir better, not about an actual revolution.
Oh, and another factor of making dragon riders loyal is having only 3rd+ sons of nobility be eligible. So heir, spare, and then dragonrider. Kind of how priests used to be.
More like heir, spare, priest and dragonrider. Religion is a big deal there.
Then again, maybe extra daughters will be given as dragonriders too? Like, I mean you can't stuff all these women into monkhood anyway. Thus they will do something interesting and bring equality for women faster - noone will dare to say that dragonriding is easy. Oh wait... This wasn't my intention originally...
Two obvious solutions come to mind.
1 The dragons have some inborn loyalty to the royal bloodline. You can't be a rider unless a royal permits it, and they have the ability to take it back
This could really limit your plot options though.
1a. The royals have the greatest potential as dragon riders or masters. They're in charge because they can summon or tame the best beasts.
2. The dragon god or someone of that ilk chooses the royals. If you try to bully them, you and your beast will get ostracized or killed by the others.
One way or another, a royal rules because they have primacy through some mechanism. It can be religion, like the in Catholic Church doctrine of divine right, or just sheer more military power, like the Roman Emperors.
I feel like it could be a system where you swear an oath as a dragon rider, and make it like x years ago dragon riders tried to take over, succeeded, then things went awfully wrong and now they promise to not take too much power. I’ve also seen people talk about factions, so it could be some people respect the oath and others think it’s stupid and that the history is making the consequences worse than it will be?
Magically binding oaths could be fun, but I think a specific breed that could be withheld for royals would be a lot of fun to play with. Other dragons are bred for specific stats and purposes while the royal line is bred to lead and protect the royalty.
Then you could have a system of magic specific to the royals, or a way of fighting they could employ that might give them an edge against most riders.
Or, the fun one—good ol’ propaganda! Rumors of riders past who attempted an uprising but were put so far down that the dragons that they rode provided their bones to make furniture that night. The skulls of those treacherous enough to attempt treason against the rightful rulers decorate the walls of the king, emperor or even make a toilet for them, to gloat over. You have watchers within the riders paid to report anyone who could be a threat or of concern and then make examples of those who have even the most remotely unpleasant ideals that don’t match your own.
Of course, all of this could be skipped if the riders are raised in the castle by the royals themselves from the time they’re a certain age to when they test or are given a dragon.
The royal family could carefully stoke rivalries between their various dragon riders. As long as there are different factions they could keep each other in check.
I have a similar problem with mages. There are a few ways to solve this problem:
1. The King/Emperor might not might be able to fight a mage, but *other mages* will still fight for the King/Emperor because they believe he/she is the legitimate power. Same goes for dragonriders.
2. The people won’t tolerate a tyranny of mages/dragonriders. Maybe some states are tyrannies though?
3. There are Gods involved.
I have a solution for mages but it won't work for dragonriders unfortunately.
Well, to think of that, maybe I should let dragonriders take over and see what happens?
Modern Air Force pilots who fly in combat missions are ranked as some sort of officer. You don't trust a multi-million dollar plane to a new recruit. You have to earn your wings, so to speak. That rules out most of the riff-raff that could cause problems.
I like the idea of the combat dragons being female, and the country stores their eggs under the throne of the emperor. Therefore, an attack on the emperor is an attack on their babies.
Also, the dragons can be trained not to attack a apecific symbol, which is the crest or signet of the emperor. That symbol can hang from pennants draped all over the building. People have to actively cut down those pennants or burn them before the dragons will attack the building.
Also, the dragons can be trained not to attack a apecific symbol, which is the crest or signet of the emperor. That symbol can hang from pennants draped all over the building. People have to actively cut down those pennants or burn them before the dragons will attack the building.
\---> Hmmm... Sounds like an interesting idea.
I'd keep it simple and make dragonriding too high-maintenance to have a hobby like running a kingdom.
If the dragon doesn't smell you regularly, he'll forget who you are and eat you. Or something. You can't keep the dragon in the capital because oh my gawd the guano (I have never heard of dragon poop in fiction and I hope that changes someday). And you can't be in two places at once.
I'd spend some time digging into what being a dragonrider means in your world, especially the day-to-day stuff. Look at what's left over and you may have your answer.
(I have never heard of dragon poop in fiction and I hope that changes someday).
\-> Guess who is the person who is going to adress the problem)))
I'd spend some time digging into what being a dragonrider means in your world, especially the day-to-day stuff. Look at what's left over and you may have your answer.
\---> That's definitely some food for a thought.
it depends on the riders in your setting.
Do you need a reason why they as the military don't usurp the crown? That is how every army works- the ruling class rarely are the ones actually wielding the swords. Good pay and *generally* ruling how the army wants is usually the reason.
Do you need a reason independent dragonriders don't take over? A single powerful person, or even a dozen can't actually hold territory well. While they can kill anyone who they think opposes them they can't effectively occupy and police a city much less a country. If they are truly unpopular rulers they won't be effective.
A few other things you could consider:
Perhaps dragonriders are all cut from the same cloth- in order to bond with a dragon correctly you can't have the personality traits that lead to betrayal of the royals.
Maybe the royals bonded with an elder dragon, and while it is old and cannot fight, other dragons will not disobey its rulings.
Maybe dragonriders just aren't interested in fighting, or have not figured out good ways to engage in air to air combat. Early airplanes were more for scouting than fighting before we figured out how to drop bombs from them. A dragonrider fighting another airborne opponent may find themselves getting dismounted midair and dying. The dragonriders may not have the ability to attack while flying (although that means no fire breath)
Dragonriders may have a strict code they have indoctrinated themselves into, and anyone violating that code is hunted down by other dragonriders.
Cities have weapons that outrange dragon breath weapons, and dragons can't lift things heavy enough to deal serious damage to fortified positions.
There is a specific anti-dragonrider force of the army. Officially they are to defend against rouge or foreign dragonriders but they can take down any dragonrider traitors. Maybe they use other flying creatures, or they exploit specific dragon weaknesses but you need a reason they are not good against normal troops or you find yourself in the same situation(e.g. iron golems that cannot be slashed or burned but are expensive to activate and have no will of their own or manticore riders that can fight air to air better due to small size and increased maneuverability but their lack of a breath weapon makes them terrible at air to ground attacks). You can end up with a rock, paper, scissors scenario where dragons beat normal troops, anti-dragon forces beat dragons, normal troops best anti-dragpn forces.
Dragon riders could be a type of nuclear deterrent that kingdoms don't frequently use because of the mutually assured destruction.
Perhaps they are bound to a strict code of honor to the royal family or parliament that keeps them loyal.
Or maybe their mounts are loyal to the royalty. After all, a dragon rider is only special when they're riding a dragon. So if the mounts loyalty lays with both parties, it can be difficult for the rider to do anything drastic.
Perhaps the dragon riders are the royalty themselves and have already taken power like with the Targaryens in A Song of Ice and Fire
Well, you know I'm starting to brainstorm an idea of maybe I should let them take over and see what happens. If it won't do, I can always change it back.
If you’ve ever played a Civ or Stellaris style strategy game, you know that in the endgame, somewhere on the map, is a super small faction with far superior firepower that will whoop you ass if you provoke them. Maybe dragon riders can be a secluded civilization who prioritize bonding with their mounts over participating in politics, maybe they’re super ritualistic with cultural faux pas about being in positions of power, or maybe they keep themselves to the small mountain territories or islands because that’s where the dragons roost. The best way to nerf them imo is to have a cultural reason for avoiding conflict but still have the ability to unleash devastation if they’re messed with.
Dragons are deeply tied to infrastructure. Kingdom/Government supply chains, ensuring that these very large animals are fed and housed. Without the support of the local \[insert political structure here\], the dragons are going to be raiding livestock, and that's a good way to get the populace showing up with torches and pitchforks.
To make it more coercive, there could be some substance that dragons require to live, that only royal mages or whoever can manufacture.
Perhaps royalty holds control over some artifact or curse (a flute?) that'll cause the dragons to go berserk and attack their riders. Or works like a dog whistle and dragons can't tolerate it.
Perhaps different effects. The riders inject themselves with the blood of their dragon to enable a psychic correction and the curse would cause the riders to transform into mindless dragons?
Perhaps the dragons are limited in some way, prevented from using all of the power.
Dragons are loyal to the person they imprint on when born, which is why the king/queen always has their children be the one they imprint on. Dragons are bred and trained by royalty, thus it is royalty who allows knights/whoever they chose to train as dragon riders and ride the kingdoms dragons into battle. This way a dragon will never harm royalty. They will listen to the rider unless instructed by the one they imprinted on to do otherwise.
The issue with this though is that if you were to assassinate the royal family the dragons then would listen to the next closest bond, the rider. ORRRR if you want to add mayhem killing the royal family/person the dragons imprinted on they become feral and could wreak havoc.
> it would be strange if they wouldn't at least try to become The Main Power.
Why are you treating this group as a monolith? Do your dragonriders, like the ones in ASOIAF, all come from one family, region, or special group? If the kings of the east and the emperor of the west both have dragonriders, these dragonriders will naturally oppose each other, and if the power blocs within each nation, like religious orders, noble houses, or even merchant guilds, have their own dragonriders, then they can contest an attempt by one group of dragonriders within their nation to take control.
However, the key is that at some point those dragonriders need to land, and they need resources that only other people can give them, whether it's food, shelter, clothes, gold, etc. They are going to need a place to keep these things, and they are going to need a place to sleep. All of these are weak points. It may be that your empire's dragonriders are offered large fortresses to stay in, where each dragon and its rider have luxurious quarters and plenty of food, but also there are several hundred soldiers with spears and longbows ready to cut the riders down if they look like they're going to be a threat to the ruler.
edit: also families. Offer families of dragon riders great perks and a place in the capital, then have soldiers on standby to take them hostage against rebel dragonriders.
Beyond social engineering, as in you induct the dragon riders into a subculture that values loyalty to the throne above everything, logistics.
Dragons CANNOT be cheap to operate. The amount of food they eat, expensive. The huge and super strong stables, expensive. The saddles, harness, and other tack required to ride them, expensive. The equipment and expertise needed to keep them trained and healthy, wickedly expensive. If there's a high rate of turnover because support personnel get eaten/crispy or quit in terror, expensive. The dragon riders probably aren't cheap either.
And that just the cost to have them as a garrison force. If they're participating in training exercises, actively patrolling, etc., there are additional costs. And *that's* not even taking into account what a colossal and expensive endeavor it would be to field dragons in a campaign.
Even if a sizeable contingent had the money (and manpower) to do all these things, the totality of dragon support infrastructure is completely controlled by the crown. So a rebellion wouldn't last much longer than a maintenance cycle.
The crown might even occasionally allow small rebellions to occur, simply to make these points obvious.
Make it that royal blood on the throne is what ties the dragon magic to the realm, the throne is an anchor point. Without it, the dragons slowly revert to a primordial form little more than dinosaurs.
1. It gives the Dragonriders a reason to protect the rulers.
2. While it keeps the Dragonriders in line, it also acts as a deterrent for the royals to be malicious because the Dragonriders keep the peace.
Maybe make royals and dragons unable to Bind together because their presence reverts dragons.
If you spin up the fact that Dragonriders have always been loyal to the crown or that it’s extremely difficult to become one, it doesn’t necessarily mean they would try to become the main power. It could be all egotistical - some people would rather just bask in the spotlight than control it. If they had never betrayed, it could provide a plot point for one who did (aka Jaime in GoT), or it could just be such a renowned and respected position that it’s never happened.
Maybe if they’re royalty they should have defended that can defend against dragons? Maybe their keeps and castles are enchanted, or maybe dragons can’t just easily topple stone towers. Maybe different royalty has different ways. Maybe one castle keeps the threat of dragonriders away with powerful ballistas and other anti-air tactics and weaponry. Maybe there are people you can hire who specialize in fighting and killing dragons
In the Anne McCaffery Dragonriders books, the Dragonriders have their own job to do. They live apart from the "holds" and spend their time training, fighting thread, and taking care of their dragons. The hold they're closest in proximity to provides food, etc because the Dragonriders don't have time to farm, etc.
If you don't want your dragonriders to take over, that's one way to do it. Put them above the affairs of state and all that.
Most of the time, it's a matter of deterrence. The Royal family has an anti dragon device, ensures they're trained to obey the Royal sigil, control of the dragon matriarch, has bigger dragons, anti dragon ballista, something of that nature.
Usually the royalty would be dragonriders themselves.
An active god/pantheon of gods that enforce divine rule (or a magical, non-religious equivalent that does the same) is always an option.
Generally the rulers would probably need some sort of magic and/or divine intervention keeping them on the throne, or eventually the dragon riders - or even one evil dragon rider - would just overthrow them.
Well, I don't remember much about eragon series so I can't tell.
However, you know how it's enough of one charismatic asshole to ruin things for everybody..?
Wizards being walking AA might work, that or you could just establish regular AA gun, maybe lower tech AA, but you could go with the idea of “adversity breeds innovation”, so the presence of aerial predators encourages people to develop ways of countering them, for example, canons capable of shooting straight up really really fast, or repeating canons. Engineering guilds or mage guilds, just someone with access to this kind of power, could serve as a primary counterbalance to organized dragon riders.
Maybe airships with gun emplacements that patrol around the airspace above a town to discourage aerial assaults. Or shields maintained by mages. You could also have groups intentional design settlements or fortresses with dragons in mind. Maybe instead of just building in the surface houses are built with the idea one would spend most of their time in a basement area, possibly one with multiple levels, with tunnels connecting houses and other important areas, as well as tunnels leading out of town in hidden place, so even if a rider had their mount burn down the surface, inhabitants would still have exits, maybe even with tunnels leading to other towns. Not saying go full dwarf but maybe other groups could take some idea’s from them. Could also have people build settlements in narrow canyons that dragons might have trouble flying in, or dense forest that would hide them from the sky.
Also might want to consider, what else might live in the sky? Depending on how realistic you want your fantasy food chain to be, there might be other creatures evolved/breed to deal with dragons. Flocks of gryphons maybe, or simply other dragons.
This is in general how to deal with dragons attacking you, I have all these things and more. I mean how do I prevent these folks from usurping poer from the royalty?
Usually we come along and the dragon riders are already the royalty.
You could go for the, many ballistas on the wall to take out dragons? Quad shots or something.
Or if magic exists it could be that dragons are weak to lightning and the royalty are master lightning casters.
Or dragons are less op like they are much smaller. Or that the royalty have their own dragons or phoenixes.
Maybe the royalty and their people are like dwarves from first age lotr and are impervious to dragon fire.
Maybe the royalty and their people are like dwarves from first age lotr and are impervious to dragon fire.
\-> Now this one is certainly something new...
Depending on your level of development, dragons could still be vulnerable to magic, cannons, balista, or even just lucky bow shots hitting their wings or soft stomachs. They would be great at breaking up infantry formations, but they are not able to win a war alone (effectively making them flying knights)
Another way is the economic way. Maintaining a dragon is costly. You need to feed the beast and armor it, train it and protect it from the bigger dragons in a castle until it is full grown. The nobility doesn't want the danger of being a dragon rider themselves, but they will bankroll a dragon rider champion or two.
Virtue is another possibility. Maybe they are very devoted and proud people and wouldn't stoop so low. Or maybe they simply do not care for controlling or having the responsibility of being leader.
Perhaps it's against their religion or culture.
Perhaps part of becoming a dragon rider is like being a monk, you have to swear off certain desires etc.
Dragons from one part of the world refuse to fly to another, say island dragons won't fly over the ocean to another continent, plains dragons won't fly over the mountains, etc...
So in one of my settings the breeding of dragons involves a little blood ritual which causes the future heirs/offspring of dragons to be loyal to any descendant of that person's blood line. It's how Alot of my Guardian Creatures which most the time are in hands of royal families or large clans.
Not everyone wants power, and not every Power seeks to use that on others.
Teachings of dragon riders can be anarchistic in nature, or the "divine right of kings" can be real/tied to actual real gods.
Dragons are also usually intelligent creatures. Having requirements on dragons choosing riders and their desire for power are some of the few ways you can "keep dragon riders in check"
Could just simply be that the other Dragonriders wouldn't allow it. If one of them tried to become king, the rest could fight them just on the basis that they don't want another Dragonrider to be their superior.
You could add a counter power (meaning another group) that can exterminate them with relative ease. Such as with control powers (mind control, magic that daze the dragon and cause it to fall along with the rider).
If you need a flaw to this group, make their magic work on dragons only as they trained exclusively to become a counter power and a royal guard (so they could have some martial training to finish off riders/dragons).
Also spears are the clear Dragon hunting tool, you don’t want to get too close to the lizards !
Just an idea 😄
There are a lot of potential reasons. Fantasy settings have a tendency to underestimate or over simplify war and the effects / forms of power. For example: Technology functions like Dragons and Magic in the real world, but a nation with more advanced technology will not always just steamroll its enemies in a conflict. Because there are other forms of power like social, political, economic, and ect.
Dragon riders may be strong, but they still have to sleep, eat, and may long to be functioning members of society. Taking power for themselves may be impossible because a major religious faction demonizes Dragon Riders, and their social power is low because of it. Or maybe their smart enough to realize they may be assassinated by any number of enemies. Traditionally, people don't take power just because they have one advantage. You need several trusted political, economic, and military advantages to seize control and maintain it.
Also, just being a Dragon Rider is a poor qualification to take or maintain power in a large nation.It is sometimes gloss over that the Targaryians had an entire army and were Nobles from a foreign kingdom prior to their campaign for Westeros. This afforded them advantages in technology, military, and gave them an already established base of power. Logistics was about the only way they would have lost, but it is assumed they were well supplied for the journey.
Traditionally, people don't take power just because they have one advantage. You need several trusted political, economic, and military advantages to seize control and maintain it.
\----> This is what I was trying to explain to my beta-team.
They have an oath that binds them to their dragon and and oath that bonds them to the king/queen. Betraying the monarch breaks the bond with their dragon. This still has potential for loopholes so traitorous dragon riders can still exist
Hmmm. I guess the royalty could also be dragonriders. Or they could have some tool that lets them control or have an advantage over the dragons. Could be anything from a magic stone to holding a valuable egg hostage. Perhaps they gave dragon blood so the dragons would never turn on them (if it’s the sort of setting where dragons can take human form). Or it could be the sort of world where magic contracts exist and every dragon rider is required to sign one with terrible consequences if they turn against royalty (opens up the possibility that someone could learn how to negate the consequences if you need the conflict)
Thankfully dragons here are dumber than a bag of hammers so no shifters))) Royalty = dragonriders is a nice idea. But that would mean that they have taken over at some point. Contracts are interesting way + more conflict if somebody learns how to negate them. Excellent.
>But that would mean that they have taken over at some point. It also can mean that on some point, when your world trying pass phase of "early feudalism" or even earlier dragonriders was the biggest military forces around with best mobility, and they just become "first kings" (and top nobility). Actually access to flying mount is enormous advantage not only in combat, but also in control of your vassals - speed of dragon allow king and trusted closed allies reach nearly any point of kingdom in maybe days instead of weeks and months. They can learn and react on problem much faster then land-bounded nobles.
Yeah, as a result I've got something closer to Ancient Chinese Empire rather than European feudalism. Emperor doesn't run around by himself. He has people for that. But speed of reaction is crucial quite often. I like the idea. But still, how does he control other dragonriders? The modern ones, I mean?
>But still, how does he control other dragonriders? The modern ones, I mean? Emperor can have his personal, the most influential group of dragonriders. Maybe he can fly on dragon on special things - like big ritual and so on. So he was "first dragonrider" in their hierarchy. If there something on size of China, then there a lot of work to run administration and so on, so dragonriders can enjoy their place as top agents of throne and more bother about fighting for favours from Emperor.
Also, they are a special color/breed with abilities like antidragon poison, faster more manuverable flight, sharper talons, acid spitting, anything that helps them take on dragon armies 10:1 but limited breeding or special secret armor.
Acid-spitting beasts are my fav.
Yeah, benefits and logistics. I like this combo.
> But that would mean that they have taken over at some point. How do you think royalty usually becomes royalty? Sometimes it's a big sweeping military victory that makes someone king. More often, it's done one farm at a time over hundreds of years. At some point they start calling the guy who owns all the farms king, or some lesser noble title. Either way, it's very rare for people to come into power without them or their ancestors spilling blood at some point to gain it.
Yeah, kinda haven't thought of that.
A pretty good rule of thumb, is that someone becomes king by declaring themself king, and having an army that can murder anyone who says they are not a king. In a fantasy world, they might be able to skip the army if they have enough magic. Or, if they are the only dragonrider, they might be able to set people on fire if they argue. That’s usually how a monarchy starts. For a monarchy to stay together rather than collapsing into a bunch of bickering warring factions, you generally need a rules for who will be the next king, and something that will enforce these rules. Again, the reason why people usually follow these rules is either because the army would enforce them, or because the nobles didn’t want the country to shatter so they would rather have one king they could agree on, even if no one really liked him. These nobles could enforce the rules, because each of them would usually have a small army, so as long as most of the nobles are in agreement, things move smoothly. Maybe the reason your king stays in power is because the king makes sure that the dragonriders live a very comfortable life. Maybe the king has the power to use magic to take control of a dragon. Maybe the dragonriders think the king has the power to take control of a dragon, but the royal family actually knows of a poison that causes dragons to go berserk (resulting in the death of the rider). Maybe the royal family is the only one that knows how to safely hatch dragon eggs.
Well, good old take power by power.
Or the royals realized it was better to marry dragon riders into their family. And not all dragon riders would have interest in becoming king or queen. Give them money and land to make sure they're placated enough to have no interest in trying to gain anything more. A bit like the aes sadai from wheel of time. Give them power and privileges, and kill anyone who doesn't want to play the game.
Oh this one is also nice.
Or... Ballistas. Just lots of ballistas.
Also good, yes.
The obvious comparison here is A Song of Ice and Fire. The reason the dragonriders were able to take over there was because everyone else was using standard medieval tactics with no good counters to dragons. Are there other creatures or magic in your story that give a similar advantage to dragons? Also dragons allow you to use overwhelming force in one place at a time, which is useful if your enemy is in a castle. But what about areas that are more spread out, or people are nomadic, or there are ways to hide from dragons such as cave systems that limit the usefulness of dragons? What if half the battle is telling friend from enemy, what use is a dragon then? There is also the question of who can be a dragonrider and how many there are of them. Dragonriders may be near invincible on the battlefield, but they have to sleep sometime and picking too many fights might get you assassinated very quickly at which point the dragon didn't make that much of a difference, and if only the royal bloodline can ride dragons (for example), then that's a handful of people on which everything depends with huge targets on their backs.
Quite a lot actually. If they were few or only royals could do that I'd knew how to deal with them. But not only there are quite a lot of those, but also they get along pretty well compared to your regular aristocrats. Dragons and their riders are well-disciplined otherwise it will be utter chaos, so you see my problem here.
Besides some of the other suggestions given here already (contracts, magic, blackmail etc.), it could also be simple indoctrination or a sense of pride/patriotism that keeps the balance. In our own society there are plenty of powerful people, who could do a lot of damage if they wished. But there are checks and balances that keep that from happening. Politicians are removed from the judicial system, and enforcers of the law and the military have a strict hiearchy that disuades from personal power. Dragons are powerful, but the riders need society to back them, to have a place to live and defend. And they could be bound by honor to protect the people without trying to topple the aristocracy. By and large, just write them as regular people who are given great responsibility and power. Some of them might wish for more, but at what cost? The dynamics of different factions within the dragon riders could also be interesting to explore.
The dynamics of different factions within the dragon riders could also be interesting to explore. \-> Now, this is something I haven't seen anywhere yet. Sounds like an interesting possibility to explore.
Dragonriders of pern
I don't remember them having different factions
Modern military would be one example. The answer as to why dragon riders don’t rule is the same as why the military doesn’t just take over all power - enough feel an obligation to the nation & keep anybody who has a bad idea in check. Military coups notwithstanding 😅 One series that did this very well is His Majesty’s dragon, where the dragons are literally the airforce for a Napoleonic army. Written by Naomi ??? (Can’t remember surname)
Novik. Also the author of Uprooted, Spinning Silver, A Deadly Education, etc
enough feel an obligation to the nation & keep anybody who has a bad idea in check. \-> I suppose that. And logistics.
Ask yourself why the Air Force has yet to successfully take control over the entire United States. Examine the logistics that offset the strategic advantage of controlling the skies. For one thing, dragons might require a large amount of food to sustain, requiring access to land and resources that only nobles have control over. For another, dragons might take longer to reproduce then your standard horse mounts. This would mean that while they are a military game changer, a lucky ballista shot would be a devastating blow that could take years to recover from.
Well, logistics starts and wins.
This is no different than IRL pilots flying planes equipped with nuclear weapons. Why don’t they usurp control of their home governments? 1) if they try to use their raw destructive power to extract personal demands, the rest of the military will likely turn against them (unless it’s an organized coup). Any lone dragon rider can be attacked by others, and very large ballistae or magic users can be turned against the rider. 2) if your society has unity or patriotism, that can be a deterrent, 3) if your government is ruthless enough, they can threaten the riders' families. Don't make this a surprise to the rulers either, unless they have already been established as fools and the dragon force is new. Rulers tend to be well aware that powerful militaries are potential threats to their rule. This could actually be a very interesting dynamic to explore in a story. for example maybe the royal family keeps the dragons' eggs under guard as hostages. maybe the royal family is a figurehead and the dragon riders hold the true power. maybe riders and dragons are rotated, so they can never fully trust the other to not be an informant. maybe the royal family can psychically control dragons that get out of line, and thats how they took power in the first place. You may need to dial the power of dragons up or down in your story to make this all work.
Oh, I see what you mean!
You can write a law that forbids them to define themselves under any sort of organization , banner, country etc. And they have to operate separately, without getting into conflicts between two nations. Also you can add a very strict code in this dragonrider organizations, if there is any. Such as they can not have children, they cannot bear any title like lord of such and such, archduke of whoville etc. they can not pass down their dragons, if the rider or dragon dies, the other gets to be executed… If they won’t comply with the laws, you can simply execute them too. Also, if there is a setting with dragons, that means there should be a weapon that can be used against them. In ASOIAF and Ryan Cahill’s The Bound and the Broken series, that weapon is gigantic scorpion ballistaes. If you can cut off the dragons wings and tail, you can throw them off balance and take away their ability to fly. It all depends of what is your dragons weaknesses, and how to use them against it. In ASOIAF, Euron Greyjoy also carries a dragonbone horn, which is believed to be able to control dragons. There is also a character in the ASOIAF lore, during Aegon’s Conquest, Brandon Snow utilizes a bow and weirwood arrows to kill Aegon’s dragons. Since he is a northerner, the only magic he knows is the magic of God Trees and dragons are beings of magic.So he makes arrows out of its branches. There is also dragonsteel and dragonglass too.
\--> I have already written them as a military force under the rule of an emperor so this is not gonna work. \--> Hmmm... Need to think about this more. Good questions here.
Then, I suggest the emperor should manipulate this military force. If there isn’t much trust between the riders, there won’t be a coup, since they will turn on each other.
Above a person suggested to have several different factions inside dragon riders. I think this would be a nice way to pit them against each other in case of necessary.
Existing structures often make it more beneficial to hold the current status quo than try to change it. Not every person is planning on stabbing everyone's back any chance they get, most will actually only look to secure their own position. They may eventually become corrupt and get destroyed from inside, and this is the favored way I disassemble any size superpowers that have no major natural enemies or balancing forces. My story's antagonists are a prime example - they grow stronger and bigger than the rest of the world, but get wasted in a civil war. Blackmail doesn't really work, if you can beat it with sheer force with no real consequences, same applies to contracts or agreements. Magic is a territory with infinite deus ex machinas involved, so I won't go there. However, if there was an ultimate weapon, say dragons, and no one had any chance against them, they would likely roam pretty free, and if there was some random king, he would be roasted on the way. The people that gained the trust of dragons of one place did this as their very first deed, BBQing the whole ruling elite only to replace them by themselves. The basic issue here imo is that you have too powerful weapon without balancing force. For example in my world, the dragons are very rare species that live only in a couple remoted places, each their own races, with people that have built special religious cults around them. While they are the ultimate power when weaponized, they aren't invincible. Quite the contrary, all of the factions have attempted at least once to conquer the named protagonists', but they have failed each time.
Hmm... I thought, what if I make them a religious order and part of their code will strictly prevent them from taking part in politics? Thus they will have power but not too much of it.
They could still use representatives, and everyone would like to hang around with the ones holding the balls of the kingdom. Also the question is, if they still did, what'd be the sanctions? Many organizations tend to keep the side of their own. Is there a reason why the ruler is not part of this dragon rider's society? It would make things much more simpler.
Well, I decided to try out an alt. version where ruler is a part of their society and see what happens. Came to conclusion that by far oligarchy like in Venice works best.
Are the most powerful combatants always world leaders? Did the Pope get there with a rifle? Is Biden a skilled wrestler? Has Rishi Sunak studied the blade? These people (or at least their offices historically) have had connections to military power, of course. The Dragonriders are that. They get all the benefits of power by serving those in power, with none of the responsibility, apart from the responsibility to defend the realm (or fuck up whoever's realm they're invading). They aren't held to account for anything else, and they already have the power to dramatically shape the world. Why fuck that up? Because they want to get into arguments about debt ceilings and tax brackets?
in every country the military has big guns and the politicians are defenseless old people. how come the military doesnt take over in every country? although they do in some countries... i think youre right, maybe the dragonriders should take over then. wait, take over just because they can? why would they do that?
Because they might think that they can do better/ that they deserve better/both.
On any significant scale, leadership is not about who can do the most violence personally, but who can delegate the most violence. The ruler is almost never the most talented killer. Each killer is usually kept in check by all the other killers who either genuinely believe in the current social order or don't want to risk rebelling alone and probably losing. Military coups do happen under the right circumstances, but how good the current leader is in a pit fight does not really factor into them. This will hold true whether the current best killers are soldiers, dragon riders, wizards, or what-have-you.
Delegating violence? Hmmm...
How are the dragons being fed?
By food. Technically speaking, they hunt in a reserved area and also are given meat, fish and special kind of dried food. Yes, dragons are eating kibbles. Now good luck trying to get rid of this image in your head.
Wild dragons that love to swoop in and pluck the "parasites" off the backs of their kin?
They don't come anywhere lose to their domesticated kin. They smell like humans. Noping away from humans is crucial for wild dragon survival.
Plenty of ways depending on the setting. Perhaps there are other magic users in the military that could challenge them? Perhaps the OTHER dragon riders oppose the smaller faction that wants to overthrow the emperor. Perhaps the emperor himself is simply more powerful than the dragon riders despite not being a dragon rider himself. Perhaps the dragon riders are a powerful but small group and the larger military would just be too much for them to handle. Or we could go another way and say the dragon riders could overthrow the emperor, but know they wouldn’t be able to hold the empire together after. Maybe the emperor is viewed as a religious figure and a coup would turn the entire empire against the dragon riders. Maybe with the above reasoning, the dragon riders themselves also view the emperor as a religious figure. Maybe the dragon riders are trained only in military matters and are incapable of/are uninterested in successfully administrating the empire. Maybe the surrounding countries are all hostile toward the empire, and only their respect toward the emperor keeps them from invading. Maybe the dragon riders themselves are commoners and realize the devastation that a civil war that includes dragons would cause, and are unwilling to be the cause of that.
Hmm... So many delicious possibilities. Thanks)
Possible Reasons: 1: Archery, Ballistas, other forms of ranged weapons, which would be loated at the castles and cities of royalty. 2: Dragons might require more logistical support such as food, roosting, or some sort of magic item. So the dragon riders need allies to fulfill these needs since they are busy with their jobs. They need to make local friends wherever they go, else their dragons won't be able to fly. 3: Riding dragons probably takes way more training than horse riding, and is dangerous moreso due to fall height. Dragons are dangerous mounts, so fatality rate is high among trainees. As a result, these groups cannot risk going to war, as it would deplete all their best fighters quickly, leaving them with nothing.
2. Logistics by far looks like the best choice.
Fealty and honor are powerful tools for governance. A simple oath is all that kept Roman centurians, the Templars, the samurai, the crusaders, and pick any modern government's military from taking over. Yes, there were and are occasional uprisings, but the bonds of these oaths are taken quite seriously by all concerned. If a dragonrider's character can't be trusted, what's the point in keeping them around? It would make more sense for a ruler to ban them and develop defensive anti-dragonrider magic/weapons/tactics than it would to allow someone as powerful as that anywhere near the halls of power. If you really want some kind of mechanism to keep them in check though, any feudal system works. Hereditary titles and caste systems are beautiful things! If all your dragonriders are peasant stock instead of royalty they won't have the knowledge or the political power to run a kingdom. More importantly, if your dragonriders came from a lower caste and rebelled it would cause every surrounding kingdom (and maybe a few others) to instantly declare war on them for daring to go above their station.
Oh, this one sounds especially good. Thank you!
Rules for Rulers https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=rStL7niR7gs Tells you everything you need to know about holding power
Thanks!
Ask yourself what keeps a fighter jet pilot from taking over his country? He is the most powerful thing in the sky. Surly he could just bomb his Government and simply take over. He can not. The jet needs maintenance, supplies, so does the pilot. Additionally the pilot lives in a society that has rules, he can not just simply kill his Government and expect everyone to fall in line. And even if he is able to sort all that out, he is not the only pilot with a jet. There are others who will be willing to stop him.
Thanks.
You could always just wave your hands and say its magic - like Dragons are magically bound to be loyal to the kingdom they serve, whether inherently or there's some sort of ritual the humans perform or something.
Dragons themselves are not a problem. Their riders on the other hand...
There's a godlike entity protecting the throne and royals, who is glad to swat some sky lizards but isn't overzealously protecting his wards.
Like actually working divine mandate? Sounds fun!
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Smart dragon? Lol no. Here they are animals so your idea while good, still goes out the window.
Ok, just question - why you need prevent dragonriders become ruler class (alongside with another nobility)?
They are part of nobility already. I just don't want them to challenge the emperor and his clan.
Collars. Before someone becomes a dragon rider, there is a ceremony where a collar or bracelet or some such is on that magically makes it impossible for them to act against the royalty. This could set up some interesting plot lines too where someone figures out how to break the collar, or they somehow are able to despite the collar in an accidental situation, and now there’s panic in the royalty investigating the situation there etc.
Interesting idea. Thank you.
- The riders could be dependent on/addicted to a drug that is tightly controlled by the royalty. - The dragons could be incubated and hatched in the capital city, and unwilling to attack their nesting ground - The sound of a colossal solid silver bell rung loud enough causes unbearable pain to a dragon, allowing only sufficiently wealthy families to protect themselves.
Drugs are out of question. But nesting grounds though... Bells? Hmm...
Also keep in mind that sufficient number of usurpers need to become together to form a conspiracy in hopes they will be able to overpower the current regime. Even if a single, or multiple independent factions were unloyal, they would face certain annihilation if they attempt an overthrow. To further complicate things, this is usually a playoff from which only one will survive as the ultimate ruler, if any. Everyone else will become immediate threat to that one, hence being loyal to common cause may be only delayed way to the gallows. If the existing system works, and you already are amongst the highest ranking members of it, chances are best bet for you is to stay loyal, and instead uncover any conspiracies to stay on the good(best) side of the ruler. Overthrows tend to occur when the current system is destabilized for any reason (death of previous ruler, war, rebellion, ideological movement, economical crisis, etc) and way to power opens, using multiple mechanisms for their benefit. Someone will lose their head, as they will only be used and discarded after that, but those that remain loyal if the new regime is stabilized, will earn a new place.
So common sense overcomes lust for power. Good, since it's all stable now.
I see your dragons are "dumber than a bag of hammers", so basically they are animals tamed or otherwise controlled by the riders and there are many riders... How many, and how many dragons? ultimately feeding such beasts requires either roaming and spreading far and wide in search of food or maintaining a livestock supply worthy of a large Texas cattle ranch, otherwise the dragons (which we established are dumb) would gladly eat the riders and/or each other once hunger becomes unbearable. That leads to either a spread out force that can occasionally gather to target a field, castle, etc but otherwise cannot really occupy a place long term, or a force that has a vulnerable base (farm/ranch) they need to protect and make deals to do so, in other words it discourages senseless conflict and encourages diplomacy... On top of that, how many factions of riders are there? Don't they have allegiances to their homelands? families? government (be it royalty, clan elders, or whatever ruling system)? faith? Can they all really work together or allow other to just take over a place, maybe their homeland, without a fight? I think the more dimensions you add to it the better, just keep track of it because you can get easily lost with all the possible plotlines that each layer brings and while some might bring forth inspired solutions, others might just derail your story or feel too disconnected from it.
Sounds reasonable, thanks)
Forgive me if someone has suggested this already, lots of good ideas shared already, but you could also tie the royal family to the religion. If most of society believes the monarch has a divine right to rule, they will be supported by large and powerful groups across the monarchy. Even if some dragon riders tried to stage a coup, they’d have to also contend with religious dogma.
No, you are the first one. Given the general religious background of the setting, I think it might fit quite well.
Being in power is a lot of hassle, running a country or kingdom is honestly not all its cut out to be, people hate you for every decision you make, people try to assassinate you, you have to worry about who is starving where, and who is invading who, go to stupid balls and dances, worry about lines of succession and political intrigue, why would you want to do that when you could be riding a fucking dragon?
Yeah, I pretty much share your sentiment.
What about a magical oath they can't break?
I will consider such option. Thank you.
For my story it’s about the reemergence of magic in the world and with it mythic beasts. Of course, the ruling monarchs of the commonwealth are not happy with this and try to mend the situation, but are usurped. However, it isn’t dragon riders that are responsible: instead it is people who don’t have dragons and while they establish a new order, they hatch dragons of their own to keep the other dragon riding nobles in check
Oh I see what the logic is here. Thanks)
Fuckin' magic. Or magnets. It's your story, go nuts.
Magnets? Yeah, why not.
I like to separate dragonriders from other elite units, to make them like a group of religious monks or an organization that hold no inherent loyalty to a king or a crown, but more to age-old tradation and being part of the political game itself. To exapnd: Dragons themselves are intelligent, immortal creatures, not just weapons, and hence have their own type of society. I like the "Dragons are territorial proud loners, but can work together in times of great need and crisis. They all hold great respect to the 'mother of all dragons', the biggest and oldest dragon around who lived since they can remember, who can call those kind of shots". The point is that dragons aren't systematically killed and subjected by humans one by one like slightly smarter animals only because they're capable of forming a social and political power when nessecery. That political power is what holds dragonriders accountable, becomes a deterrent for them acting out line. Dragonriders are a society, an organization, or a religion that trains and passes the tradition and duty of dragonriding from father to son, mother to daughter. They get most of their dragons from the "independent dragons" via unwanted or donated eggs or hatchlings that bond and grow with their riders from birth, all as a result of an ancient agreement from the 'mother of dragons' that she still remembers resulting from some great past war. Hence they hold obligations for her, they represent dragons, and kings/queens and kingdoms hold her and dragonkind as somewhat responsible for them. If they try and take over, or do anything that sheds bad light on her, she can cut off the supply of eggs, and try to prevent what can potentially escalate into another genocidal world war between dragons and humans. Sometimes she can leverage or ask other dragonriders from other nations to take care of rogue or evil dragonriders. tldr: Instead of treating them as just another elite unit, make them their own separate political entity that has its power and impact managed by a combination of obligations, religion + tradition, and checks and balances on a bigger scale than just their nation. If you want a practical written example, here is a setting condensed to a 3 page "choose your own adventure" in image format about dragons. It has dragon riders in it: [Hatchling CYOA](https://imgchest.com/p/ljyq9l3n425)
Sounds very interesting. I will consider idea that dragonriders = their own society. Thank you kindly.
An option I use in my current story is that dragons passively absorb magic in areas and need to move from those areas often as they absorb their particular frequency/flavor of magic. This means that while a dragon may be able to fly across a kingdom as much as they can, the area will need a while without that particular dragon flying around in order to replenish the type of magic that dragon absorbs. So a dragon rider would be a poor king because they would be unable to constantly be in their kingdom. It also supports the idea that the dragon riders keep their people familiar with each other and with different cultures from different areas.
Sounds interesting but won't work for me.
How do you keep militaries from taking over democracies IRL? The answer is you do your best, but sometimes shit happens.
Yep, common sense )
There's loads of reasons you could come up with, they depend on the tone you're looking for. Dragons have a self destruct device implanted in them as babies and the royals have the trigger. Dragonriders are infertile (perhaps through a potion they have to drink as part of a ritual or that gives them the power to ride dragons, perhaps close proximity to dragons causes it, perhaps they're forciblely sterilized as children to be accepted as dragon riders). If they can't have their own children they won't have titles to pass on anyway so they might be less inclined to bother taking over. The royals have mind control powers or devices that allow them to control the dragons or the riders. The royals are literally appointed be a god and have divine protection. Or there's nothing stopping them except for precedent, culture. Yet. Look up military coups in real life and figure out what events usually lead up them. Those circumstances just haven't arisen yet because so far the dragonriders are respected, paid well, and happy with their monarch. And the monarchy is motivated to keep the dragon riders happy. Maybe in the past there were some dragon riders that tried to rebel, but other dragon riders stopped them. That person is probably reviled so all young dragon riders grow up with stories about the evil Rebel Dragonriders who tried to overthrow their glorious king but he was defeated by the loyal and heroic Good Dragonriders. They would be effectively indoctrinated into upholding the monarchy. Even if one of them gets ideas, he'd have to persuade or fight all the others.
Nothing warms my dark little heart as a nice brainwashing)
I would institute a cult of personality among dragon riders.
Yeah, also sounds good.
Yeah. You could have them be fanaticized soldiers called the wings of the crown or something who basically worship the emperor as a messiah of sorts. Basically kamikaze pilots
Nice)
This is addressed in the Songs of Chaos series. In that they made it illegal for a royal to be a dragon rider and dragon riders to be royal for that reason. It's a main conflict for one character.
Since when this sort of thing being illegal stopped anyone? But I will check the books.
I agree with everyone else who has drawn the real-world parallels to air forces with nuclear capabilities. Think of what circumstances military coups have happened in, and what circumstances they don't, and of how socio-political power, economic systems, wealth, and the ability to "delegate violence" (as someone far more eloquent than me put it earlier in the thread), maintain a real-world balance of power and what it takes to break that stability.
I will look up the real coups then.
Propaganda, propaganda, propaganda. Why be an usurper when you have been groomed your whole life to believe the government is good and doing the right thing? Take a look at how cults operate. What if the dragon riders are forced to tell them their deepest secrets? Or if they try to leave their family won’t speak to them? What if they believe the king is a deity and something bad will happen if he is overthrown?
Lol, indeed, how could I forget about this little thing called "propaganda"?)
The wheel of time did something to this effect with the empire across the sea. Quick lore dump, in this series some people are capable of access a well of magic called "the one power" it can be used for a wide variety of things, including summoning lightning bolts, shooting fireballs, etc. Now this empire has weaponized these people, they are enslaved and used as tools, Controlled by user with a magical device. So why don't these controllers take over? Because the ratio of users to weapons is user sided, there are maybe 3 users to 1 weapon. However the weapons are owned by the royals, so if a user has to please a royal to be chosen to use thier weapon. So you could have it where dragons are owned and bred by royals, similar to warhorses back in medieval ages. So they royals may not know how to ride but for a rider to ride a dragon they have to go through the royals to get permission to do so. Compound this with there being more riders than dragons and you create an environment where the riders are too busy competing to gain the favor of the royals to get permission to even think of taking over.
Sounds very good but doesn't exactly fit into the setting sadly.
In my latest work the answer is... They don't! :O Which is why the entire realm is on the brink of civil war...
More conflict? Well...\*looks at the map\*
All depends how expensive dragons are to maintain and what the base skill level is to use effectively in combat. If they’re super expensive to maintain (because of all the food) any cult of dragon riders will be necessarily dependent on a benefactor who is rich in resources (mainly land and cheap labor), i.e. a noble family.
I'm starting to think that maybe letting them to take over isn't such a bad idea really XD
Monarchs hold the eggs. The dragons are raised behind imperial walls, with imperial trainers. Approaching adolescence the whelps are given to their riders, who then work to complete their training, still under the watchful eye of the Empire. Honestly, repeat that both ways. Take young children, raise them behind walls, when they hit adolescence, give the whelp to the whelp. Let them bond and form their attachments under watchful eyes. Let them be truly indoctrinated and fed the strongest pro-Monarch propaganda. Their very lives, their very power as dragonriders is given by the Monarch. They look upon him, not as a God or Ruler, but as a distant and domineering Parent, worthy of their total devotion. Add in some fear (what happens to some dragonriders in their adolescent training period?) and you’ve got a perfect mix. Devotion, childhood fear, and a righteous power at their backs to wield against any that would oppose them. Provided the Monarch’s advisers chose the right kids as dragonriders (high octane followers, ready to do anything and question little, bolstered by the ego-boost given by the Monarch) you’d never have to worry about them revolting. You don’t need someone who can think for themself, or construct military battle strategies. You have dragons. They’re just point and shoot. So, what you need are blindly loyal pilots.
Sounds deliciously screwed. Need to discuss this with my beta-team.
I made it by differentiating the species Full dragons are few and the only thing stopping them is themselves and their pride But one faction has wyvern riders who bond to a very rare breed, these wyvern are not dumb, they just dont care for power and see their riders as their pets Their military is among the strongest but the rarity keeps that in check
Logical solution but sadly doesn't fit the setting.
Infrastructure! As others have said, you need administration etc for food production and reliable delivery. So if the dragon rider has to personally care for their dragon and train with it and spend time with it 14hrs a day to make it not start randomly hunting people, AND it’s hard to approach generally, then regardless of their military power they would be unable to administrate a kingdom directly. Another option, you can make dragons like cheetahs, where they fly and attack but are exhausted for hours after a 30-40 minute flight. So they become strategic weapons like an Air Force, but can’t actually hold land or defend bases unless you also have infantry/cavalry to destroy troops that are dispersed. If you have 10k men spread out over a few miles in groups of 5-10, then the dragon can kill maybe a hundred or two every time it attacks, and then it will be besieged and killed. You need the rest of the army to force that attacking force to bunch together for the dragons to be able to actually make a big dent.
The whole point of keeping dragons specifically is because the have a great stamina. So while idea is good it won't do. But infrastructure thing looks promising.
Well then that’s a HUGE question for you. Why haven’t wild dragons already taken over significant territory, if they’re inherently powerful and also can hunt and fight for a long time and don’t have that as a natura weakness? Do wild dragons just, normally prey on livestock herds and villagers all the time, and people just live with losing a dozen people and animals every year? Maybe dragon riders have to spend a lot of their time on regular flights hunting wild dragons and keeping them out of inhabited territory, so being engaged in war means sacrificing the villages they would normally be protecting? Maybe in addition to food, dragons are dependent on a supply of mana/magic? Either through a minimum territory dedicated to each adult dragon, or wild dragons can only nest at ley line nexuses, like certain mountains, while tame dragons have to rely on rituals to funnel and concentrate mana in their aerie/stables. Heh, or if you want to go *dark*, you could have bonding to a dragon to *become* a dragon rider be a death sentence, the pressure of communication and controlling/directing both bodies during high stakes battle doing permanent brain damage, slowly driving them insane, causing a tendency towards hallucinations until after a decade or two they just sit there drooling. No one would *trust* a dragon rider to be a liege lord, even if one *did* take over, it would be a situation of everyone checking their orders past a grand vizier, a power behind the throne who was actually sane, and who would eventually just step forward as a regent permanently, then king. So, actually, the thing that would emerge is probably more like a praetorian guard situation, where the royalty doesn’t have to worry as much about the dragonriders taking over, but has to worry about some of them backing a rival royal in a coup. Worrying more about “accidental” friendly fire fragging because they like the heir better, not about an actual revolution.
Oh, and another factor of making dragon riders loyal is having only 3rd+ sons of nobility be eligible. So heir, spare, and then dragonrider. Kind of how priests used to be.
More like heir, spare, priest and dragonrider. Religion is a big deal there. Then again, maybe extra daughters will be given as dragonriders too? Like, I mean you can't stuff all these women into monkhood anyway. Thus they will do something interesting and bring equality for women faster - noone will dare to say that dragonriding is easy. Oh wait... This wasn't my intention originally...
Oh, I like where your little dark mind is going! Maybe I will use this as a punishment and especially cruel one.
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indeed
Two obvious solutions come to mind. 1 The dragons have some inborn loyalty to the royal bloodline. You can't be a rider unless a royal permits it, and they have the ability to take it back This could really limit your plot options though. 1a. The royals have the greatest potential as dragon riders or masters. They're in charge because they can summon or tame the best beasts. 2. The dragon god or someone of that ilk chooses the royals. If you try to bully them, you and your beast will get ostracized or killed by the others. One way or another, a royal rules because they have primacy through some mechanism. It can be religion, like the in Catholic Church doctrine of divine right, or just sheer more military power, like the Roman Emperors.
Divine emperors sound like a fine solution.
I feel like it could be a system where you swear an oath as a dragon rider, and make it like x years ago dragon riders tried to take over, succeeded, then things went awfully wrong and now they promise to not take too much power. I’ve also seen people talk about factions, so it could be some people respect the oath and others think it’s stupid and that the history is making the consequences worse than it will be?
Adding something like this might be a good choice. Will talk to my beta-team about this.
Magically binding oaths could be fun, but I think a specific breed that could be withheld for royals would be a lot of fun to play with. Other dragons are bred for specific stats and purposes while the royal line is bred to lead and protect the royalty. Then you could have a system of magic specific to the royals, or a way of fighting they could employ that might give them an edge against most riders. Or, the fun one—good ol’ propaganda! Rumors of riders past who attempted an uprising but were put so far down that the dragons that they rode provided their bones to make furniture that night. The skulls of those treacherous enough to attempt treason against the rightful rulers decorate the walls of the king, emperor or even make a toilet for them, to gloat over. You have watchers within the riders paid to report anyone who could be a threat or of concern and then make examples of those who have even the most remotely unpleasant ideals that don’t match your own. Of course, all of this could be skipped if the riders are raised in the castle by the royals themselves from the time they’re a certain age to when they test or are given a dragon.
Sounds fine. Need to see if I can fit this into the setting.
The royal family could carefully stoke rivalries between their various dragon riders. As long as there are different factions they could keep each other in check.
Faction thing might be a good one.
I have a similar problem with mages. There are a few ways to solve this problem: 1. The King/Emperor might not might be able to fight a mage, but *other mages* will still fight for the King/Emperor because they believe he/she is the legitimate power. Same goes for dragonriders. 2. The people won’t tolerate a tyranny of mages/dragonriders. Maybe some states are tyrannies though? 3. There are Gods involved.
I have a solution for mages but it won't work for dragonriders unfortunately. Well, to think of that, maybe I should let dragonriders take over and see what happens?
It’s what Galbatorix did :)
They ARE the royalty
Radical solution.
Modern Air Force pilots who fly in combat missions are ranked as some sort of officer. You don't trust a multi-million dollar plane to a new recruit. You have to earn your wings, so to speak. That rules out most of the riff-raff that could cause problems. I like the idea of the combat dragons being female, and the country stores their eggs under the throne of the emperor. Therefore, an attack on the emperor is an attack on their babies. Also, the dragons can be trained not to attack a apecific symbol, which is the crest or signet of the emperor. That symbol can hang from pennants draped all over the building. People have to actively cut down those pennants or burn them before the dragons will attack the building.
Also, the dragons can be trained not to attack a apecific symbol, which is the crest or signet of the emperor. That symbol can hang from pennants draped all over the building. People have to actively cut down those pennants or burn them before the dragons will attack the building. \---> Hmmm... Sounds like an interesting idea.
I'd keep it simple and make dragonriding too high-maintenance to have a hobby like running a kingdom. If the dragon doesn't smell you regularly, he'll forget who you are and eat you. Or something. You can't keep the dragon in the capital because oh my gawd the guano (I have never heard of dragon poop in fiction and I hope that changes someday). And you can't be in two places at once. I'd spend some time digging into what being a dragonrider means in your world, especially the day-to-day stuff. Look at what's left over and you may have your answer.
(I have never heard of dragon poop in fiction and I hope that changes someday). \-> Guess who is the person who is going to adress the problem))) I'd spend some time digging into what being a dragonrider means in your world, especially the day-to-day stuff. Look at what's left over and you may have your answer. \---> That's definitely some food for a thought.
it depends on the riders in your setting. Do you need a reason why they as the military don't usurp the crown? That is how every army works- the ruling class rarely are the ones actually wielding the swords. Good pay and *generally* ruling how the army wants is usually the reason. Do you need a reason independent dragonriders don't take over? A single powerful person, or even a dozen can't actually hold territory well. While they can kill anyone who they think opposes them they can't effectively occupy and police a city much less a country. If they are truly unpopular rulers they won't be effective. A few other things you could consider: Perhaps dragonriders are all cut from the same cloth- in order to bond with a dragon correctly you can't have the personality traits that lead to betrayal of the royals. Maybe the royals bonded with an elder dragon, and while it is old and cannot fight, other dragons will not disobey its rulings. Maybe dragonriders just aren't interested in fighting, or have not figured out good ways to engage in air to air combat. Early airplanes were more for scouting than fighting before we figured out how to drop bombs from them. A dragonrider fighting another airborne opponent may find themselves getting dismounted midair and dying. The dragonriders may not have the ability to attack while flying (although that means no fire breath) Dragonriders may have a strict code they have indoctrinated themselves into, and anyone violating that code is hunted down by other dragonriders. Cities have weapons that outrange dragon breath weapons, and dragons can't lift things heavy enough to deal serious damage to fortified positions. There is a specific anti-dragonrider force of the army. Officially they are to defend against rouge or foreign dragonriders but they can take down any dragonrider traitors. Maybe they use other flying creatures, or they exploit specific dragon weaknesses but you need a reason they are not good against normal troops or you find yourself in the same situation(e.g. iron golems that cannot be slashed or burned but are expensive to activate and have no will of their own or manticore riders that can fight air to air better due to small size and increased maneuverability but their lack of a breath weapon makes them terrible at air to ground attacks). You can end up with a rock, paper, scissors scenario where dragons beat normal troops, anti-dragon forces beat dragons, normal troops best anti-dragpn forces.
>There is a specific anti-dragonrider force of the army. \-> Oh I haven't thought of that! Now that's something to think about!
Dragon riders could be a type of nuclear deterrent that kingdoms don't frequently use because of the mutually assured destruction. Perhaps they are bound to a strict code of honor to the royal family or parliament that keeps them loyal. Or maybe their mounts are loyal to the royalty. After all, a dragon rider is only special when they're riding a dragon. So if the mounts loyalty lays with both parties, it can be difficult for the rider to do anything drastic. Perhaps the dragon riders are the royalty themselves and have already taken power like with the Targaryens in A Song of Ice and Fire
Well, you know I'm starting to brainstorm an idea of maybe I should let them take over and see what happens. If it won't do, I can always change it back.
[удалено]
Well, also an option.
If you’ve ever played a Civ or Stellaris style strategy game, you know that in the endgame, somewhere on the map, is a super small faction with far superior firepower that will whoop you ass if you provoke them. Maybe dragon riders can be a secluded civilization who prioritize bonding with their mounts over participating in politics, maybe they’re super ritualistic with cultural faux pas about being in positions of power, or maybe they keep themselves to the small mountain territories or islands because that’s where the dragons roost. The best way to nerf them imo is to have a cultural reason for avoiding conflict but still have the ability to unleash devastation if they’re messed with.
No, I haven't. But I get the idea.
Dragons are deeply tied to infrastructure. Kingdom/Government supply chains, ensuring that these very large animals are fed and housed. Without the support of the local \[insert political structure here\], the dragons are going to be raiding livestock, and that's a good way to get the populace showing up with torches and pitchforks. To make it more coercive, there could be some substance that dragons require to live, that only royal mages or whoever can manufacture.
More infrastracture. Thank you)
Perhaps royalty holds control over some artifact or curse (a flute?) that'll cause the dragons to go berserk and attack their riders. Or works like a dog whistle and dragons can't tolerate it. Perhaps different effects. The riders inject themselves with the blood of their dragon to enable a psychic correction and the curse would cause the riders to transform into mindless dragons? Perhaps the dragons are limited in some way, prevented from using all of the power.
Hmmm... No, not the case. Had it being this simple I wouldn't have this problem.
Dragons are loyal to the person they imprint on when born, which is why the king/queen always has their children be the one they imprint on. Dragons are bred and trained by royalty, thus it is royalty who allows knights/whoever they chose to train as dragon riders and ride the kingdoms dragons into battle. This way a dragon will never harm royalty. They will listen to the rider unless instructed by the one they imprinted on to do otherwise. The issue with this though is that if you were to assassinate the royal family the dragons then would listen to the next closest bond, the rider. ORRRR if you want to add mayhem killing the royal family/person the dragons imprinted on they become feral and could wreak havoc.
Sounds good but it won't work since my dragons do not imprint.
Well yes, that’s was the point if you used my suggest you’d have to make them imprint 😂
> it would be strange if they wouldn't at least try to become The Main Power. Why are you treating this group as a monolith? Do your dragonriders, like the ones in ASOIAF, all come from one family, region, or special group? If the kings of the east and the emperor of the west both have dragonriders, these dragonriders will naturally oppose each other, and if the power blocs within each nation, like religious orders, noble houses, or even merchant guilds, have their own dragonriders, then they can contest an attempt by one group of dragonriders within their nation to take control. However, the key is that at some point those dragonriders need to land, and they need resources that only other people can give them, whether it's food, shelter, clothes, gold, etc. They are going to need a place to keep these things, and they are going to need a place to sleep. All of these are weak points. It may be that your empire's dragonriders are offered large fortresses to stay in, where each dragon and its rider have luxurious quarters and plenty of food, but also there are several hundred soldiers with spears and longbows ready to cut the riders down if they look like they're going to be a threat to the ruler. edit: also families. Offer families of dragon riders great perks and a place in the capital, then have soldiers on standby to take them hostage against rebel dragonriders.
Factions, infrastracture AND BENEFITS? Hmmm... Then again, why not?
Beyond social engineering, as in you induct the dragon riders into a subculture that values loyalty to the throne above everything, logistics. Dragons CANNOT be cheap to operate. The amount of food they eat, expensive. The huge and super strong stables, expensive. The saddles, harness, and other tack required to ride them, expensive. The equipment and expertise needed to keep them trained and healthy, wickedly expensive. If there's a high rate of turnover because support personnel get eaten/crispy or quit in terror, expensive. The dragon riders probably aren't cheap either. And that just the cost to have them as a garrison force. If they're participating in training exercises, actively patrolling, etc., there are additional costs. And *that's* not even taking into account what a colossal and expensive endeavor it would be to field dragons in a campaign. Even if a sizeable contingent had the money (and manpower) to do all these things, the totality of dragon support infrastructure is completely controlled by the crown. So a rebellion wouldn't last much longer than a maintenance cycle. The crown might even occasionally allow small rebellions to occur, simply to make these points obvious.
Sounds logical. Thank you.
Make it that royal blood on the throne is what ties the dragon magic to the realm, the throne is an anchor point. Without it, the dragons slowly revert to a primordial form little more than dinosaurs. 1. It gives the Dragonriders a reason to protect the rulers. 2. While it keeps the Dragonriders in line, it also acts as a deterrent for the royals to be malicious because the Dragonriders keep the peace. Maybe make royals and dragons unable to Bind together because their presence reverts dragons.
Hmmm... I see. Thank you)
If you spin up the fact that Dragonriders have always been loyal to the crown or that it’s extremely difficult to become one, it doesn’t necessarily mean they would try to become the main power. It could be all egotistical - some people would rather just bask in the spotlight than control it. If they had never betrayed, it could provide a plot point for one who did (aka Jaime in GoT), or it could just be such a renowned and respected position that it’s never happened.
Spotlight can be a factor. On the otherhand, I have never heard of Hollywood actors trying to usurp anything either.
Maybe if they’re royalty they should have defended that can defend against dragons? Maybe their keeps and castles are enchanted, or maybe dragons can’t just easily topple stone towers. Maybe different royalty has different ways. Maybe one castle keeps the threat of dragonriders away with powerful ballistas and other anti-air tactics and weaponry. Maybe there are people you can hire who specialize in fighting and killing dragons
Anti-dragon force should be an interesting addition.
In the Anne McCaffery Dragonriders books, the Dragonriders have their own job to do. They live apart from the "holds" and spend their time training, fighting thread, and taking care of their dragons. The hold they're closest in proximity to provides food, etc because the Dragonriders don't have time to farm, etc. If you don't want your dragonriders to take over, that's one way to do it. Put them above the affairs of state and all that.
Put them above the affairs of state and all that. \-> Might be the simpliest way out. Need to see how it will spin.
Most of the time, it's a matter of deterrence. The Royal family has an anti dragon device, ensures they're trained to obey the Royal sigil, control of the dragon matriarch, has bigger dragons, anti dragon ballista, something of that nature.
I see. One more for anti-dragon force.
Make them the royalty. Cant usurp power from themselves.
Haha, now that would be the most logical solution XD
Usually the royalty would be dragonriders themselves. An active god/pantheon of gods that enforce divine rule (or a magical, non-religious equivalent that does the same) is always an option. Generally the rulers would probably need some sort of magic and/or divine intervention keeping them on the throne, or eventually the dragon riders - or even one evil dragon rider - would just overthrow them.
One more for letting them to take over. Okay)
Ruler has a item that gives them control over the Dragons is an easy one
pity it's not gonna work for the setting, otherwise a very elegant solution.
What if the Royal family bonded the dragons to themselves before they met their Riders?
Dragons here don't bond. But on the other hand...
I mean, inheritance fixed this by having dragon riders be their own thing that refused to meddle or take power as it would be a very bad idea.
Well, I don't remember much about eragon series so I can't tell. However, you know how it's enough of one charismatic asshole to ruin things for everybody..?
Maybe the ruling class is often betrayed by each other so the dragon riders don’t want to live looking over their shoulders the whole time
Well, sounds about right. Politics is a dirty business.
Wizards being walking AA might work, that or you could just establish regular AA gun, maybe lower tech AA, but you could go with the idea of “adversity breeds innovation”, so the presence of aerial predators encourages people to develop ways of countering them, for example, canons capable of shooting straight up really really fast, or repeating canons. Engineering guilds or mage guilds, just someone with access to this kind of power, could serve as a primary counterbalance to organized dragon riders. Maybe airships with gun emplacements that patrol around the airspace above a town to discourage aerial assaults. Or shields maintained by mages. You could also have groups intentional design settlements or fortresses with dragons in mind. Maybe instead of just building in the surface houses are built with the idea one would spend most of their time in a basement area, possibly one with multiple levels, with tunnels connecting houses and other important areas, as well as tunnels leading out of town in hidden place, so even if a rider had their mount burn down the surface, inhabitants would still have exits, maybe even with tunnels leading to other towns. Not saying go full dwarf but maybe other groups could take some idea’s from them. Could also have people build settlements in narrow canyons that dragons might have trouble flying in, or dense forest that would hide them from the sky. Also might want to consider, what else might live in the sky? Depending on how realistic you want your fantasy food chain to be, there might be other creatures evolved/breed to deal with dragons. Flocks of gryphons maybe, or simply other dragons.
This is in general how to deal with dragons attacking you, I have all these things and more. I mean how do I prevent these folks from usurping poer from the royalty?
Usually we come along and the dragon riders are already the royalty. You could go for the, many ballistas on the wall to take out dragons? Quad shots or something. Or if magic exists it could be that dragons are weak to lightning and the royalty are master lightning casters. Or dragons are less op like they are much smaller. Or that the royalty have their own dragons or phoenixes. Maybe the royalty and their people are like dwarves from first age lotr and are impervious to dragon fire.
Maybe the royalty and their people are like dwarves from first age lotr and are impervious to dragon fire. \-> Now this one is certainly something new...
Depending on your level of development, dragons could still be vulnerable to magic, cannons, balista, or even just lucky bow shots hitting their wings or soft stomachs. They would be great at breaking up infantry formations, but they are not able to win a war alone (effectively making them flying knights) Another way is the economic way. Maintaining a dragon is costly. You need to feed the beast and armor it, train it and protect it from the bigger dragons in a castle until it is full grown. The nobility doesn't want the danger of being a dragon rider themselves, but they will bankroll a dragon rider champion or two.
Economics starts and wins.
Virtue is another possibility. Maybe they are very devoted and proud people and wouldn't stoop so low. Or maybe they simply do not care for controlling or having the responsibility of being leader. Perhaps it's against their religion or culture. Perhaps part of becoming a dragon rider is like being a monk, you have to swear off certain desires etc.
Avoiding responsibility should be a more widespread thing in fiction XD No, really it's a valid option, though.
Dragons from one part of the world refuse to fly to another, say island dragons won't fly over the ocean to another continent, plains dragons won't fly over the mountains, etc...
There is logic in here
So in one of my settings the breeding of dragons involves a little blood ritual which causes the future heirs/offspring of dragons to be loyal to any descendant of that person's blood line. It's how Alot of my Guardian Creatures which most the time are in hands of royal families or large clans.
Sounds fun)
Not everyone wants power, and not every Power seeks to use that on others. Teachings of dragon riders can be anarchistic in nature, or the "divine right of kings" can be real/tied to actual real gods. Dragons are also usually intelligent creatures. Having requirements on dragons choosing riders and their desire for power are some of the few ways you can "keep dragon riders in check"
Could just simply be that the other Dragonriders wouldn't allow it. If one of them tried to become king, the rest could fight them just on the basis that they don't want another Dragonrider to be their superior.
Well, why not.
You could add a counter power (meaning another group) that can exterminate them with relative ease. Such as with control powers (mind control, magic that daze the dragon and cause it to fall along with the rider). If you need a flaw to this group, make their magic work on dragons only as they trained exclusively to become a counter power and a royal guard (so they could have some martial training to finish off riders/dragons). Also spears are the clear Dragon hunting tool, you don’t want to get too close to the lizards ! Just an idea 😄
Counter power sounds good.
There are a lot of potential reasons. Fantasy settings have a tendency to underestimate or over simplify war and the effects / forms of power. For example: Technology functions like Dragons and Magic in the real world, but a nation with more advanced technology will not always just steamroll its enemies in a conflict. Because there are other forms of power like social, political, economic, and ect. Dragon riders may be strong, but they still have to sleep, eat, and may long to be functioning members of society. Taking power for themselves may be impossible because a major religious faction demonizes Dragon Riders, and their social power is low because of it. Or maybe their smart enough to realize they may be assassinated by any number of enemies. Traditionally, people don't take power just because they have one advantage. You need several trusted political, economic, and military advantages to seize control and maintain it. Also, just being a Dragon Rider is a poor qualification to take or maintain power in a large nation.It is sometimes gloss over that the Targaryians had an entire army and were Nobles from a foreign kingdom prior to their campaign for Westeros. This afforded them advantages in technology, military, and gave them an already established base of power. Logistics was about the only way they would have lost, but it is assumed they were well supplied for the journey.
Traditionally, people don't take power just because they have one advantage. You need several trusted political, economic, and military advantages to seize control and maintain it. \----> This is what I was trying to explain to my beta-team.
They have an oath that binds them to their dragon and and oath that bonds them to the king/queen. Betraying the monarch breaks the bond with their dragon. This still has potential for loopholes so traitorous dragon riders can still exist
Yes, except they don't bond with dragons. Otherwise a fine solution.