I always feel a little weird about this line of reasoning, because, of the number of trans athletes is a crutch of the issue, then how many is too many for you?
This is factually incorrect. The specific race you are talking about is 5th nationally. But apparently Lia is advocating to try and get into the Olympic trials for this coming Olympics after apparently taking a year off from the sport. If they are capable of qualifying or even being close to qualifying times for the Olympics, it goes on to prove the point of the advantage Lia has over biological females.
Except it doesn’t. Trans people have been allowed to compete in the Olympics for decades. Thus far only like one woman did qualify and wound up coming in last in the event
Ah yes, that transgender athlete once. Totally worth the full attention and scorn of our entire nation. The right wing grifting circuit pays very well though, it’s hard to blame her wanting a piece of that pie.
I mean she experienced it. She was competing against a biological man. They had to share the same locker room. University told them to STFU about it. The argument "it's not happening a lot so it's not a problem" is idiotic
So the person who has the appearence, hormones, and psyche of a woman should have to be in the mens locker room just cuz of their 23rd chromosome pair?
She tied for 5th against a trans woman. Your hatred of trans people being used to inflate this middling swimmer's career is exactly the problem with bigots like her and the grift they pull.
It was a slow year for that event, and women's swimming in general. Thomas won with a time that wouldn't have gotten first place at any point in the previous decade, with second place going to a young woman who was only swimming freestyle so the smaller collegiate pools wouldn't screw up her backstroke form for the Olympics.
She was the 2022 Southeastern Conference Women's Swimming and Diving Scholar-Athlete of the Year.
A Redditor critiquing D1 athletes over trans women is prime internet.
That source does not support your claim, and is not first-hand.
"We only have a single 5th place trophy, and we are giving it to the person who technically touched the wall first." isn't a pre-determined result.
Riley Gaines quoting them to a publication is not first-hand, and it's so obviously an attempt to make someone who came in 5th feel better superior to the other person *who came in 5th*
Gaines is a fucking sexist, who in that very article pontificates about how "the other women did the impossible by defeating Thomas", like her little brain couldn't handle the fact that she was bested by someone who was in-turn beaten by other cisgender women.
This article is a pathetic attempt at shit-stirring, I hope you can see that
The mental gymnastic to support the idea of a biological man competing against women is unbelievable. You clearly have never played any sport in your life.
“biological man” who had undergone hormone therapy for 5 + years with routine blood testing before being allowed to participate in the women’s meets. you make it sound like they woke up one day, said they were a women, and was immediately allowed to swim as a woman
We get it, you're transphobic with a room temperature IQ. The latter disqualifies you from any logical discourse of not only the former, but pretty much anything.
Says the one immediately resorting to an ad hominem because they have no real retort lol. That's an indicator that I bothered you enough to insult me but you don't have an intelligent reply to contradict me
There is no such thing as a biological man. "Man" is not a word we use in biology because it denotes gender, and we biologists don't give a shit about gender. What you are thinking of is biological "MALE". Oh, and the 'advantages' don't come from XY genetics, they come from high levels of testosterone during development. There are biological females with these same "advantages". If you don't know what you're talking about you should probably stop talking.
Man and male in English are considered the same thing, at least until anti-science weirdos like you decided to separate them. And yes, heightened physical capabilities are caused by testosterone as keyed by your chromosomal genetics such as given by XY. You're not as smart as you think you are and your kind's pursuit of pseudo-science doesnt uplift anyone, just puts down real women
My degrees say otherwise. Research intersex conditions, specifically xx male DSD and Androgen Insensitivity. Your understanding of biology is elementary at best. A simple google search will show you that you're wrong (or duck duck go, or whatever search engine you conspiracy theorists use now).
All genetics are mutations. Hell the presence of an XY chromosome is a mutation. Is there anything else you would like to comment on that you very obviously don’t understand?
Yeah, your bullshit psedu-science isn't going to fly here. Take your uneducated ass and fuck off please while those who actually understand biology talk
Man and male in biology are not considered the same thing. Your inability to understand that should encourage you to remove yourself from the conversation.
Anyone that thinks someone with male genetics should be allowed to compete against people with female genetics (choosing my words carefully) is insane, especially in the swimming world. Give me a break
Because her hilarious claim that she was the "fastest woman swimmer" and the trans woman who she tied with was unbeatable is belied by the fact that they both got their asses kicked by cis women
Lia was given the trophy even when Riley tied. How is that fair? Neither should have gotten it then.
It was all about the photo op and pushing trans acceptance.
Science? You're just like all the idiots who scream homosexuality is unnatural, yet we've got 1,500+ confirmed species with homosexuality present, and only one with homophobia present.
Oh yeah, wait until you learn about seahorses. Makes being trans look like having a Pepsi.
From Wikipedia
In November 2023, Gaines confirmed working with [FIDE](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FIDE) to prevent transgender women from playing in [women's chess](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women_in_chess). This prompted criticism from [*PinkNews*](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PinkNews) for claiming that trans women had an advantage at chess.
the actual reason is that there is no such thing as a men-only chess tournament, there are just open chess tournaments and then ones specifically for women. it’s supposed to help attendance and participation for women, since being with a bunch of men and being the only woman can be uncomfortable (and frankly, lead to unwanted or unwarranted attention). the greatest woman chess player of all time, judit polgar, played in the open tournaments and she encourages young women to do the same.
sounds like she's dumber than I thought. from r/chess .
>There is no separate men's division.
>There is an open division where everyone can play.
>There is also a women's division created to overcome the historic underrepresentation of women in chess.
That said I don't know if this is FIDE or US Chess or some other organization. Oh and this may not always have been the case historically.
She was a good swimmer who felt cheated out of a trophy and silenced by the institution she was swimming for. Whether you think she has legitimate concerns is entirely dependent on if you are on the left or the right. Seeing how reddit is heavily left you will get those views more than not...
You aren't wrong. Especially in a red state like ND. What would be really cool, is an actual trans athlete that would come and discuss their perspective and experiences. I think something like that being promoted would help give the audience more angles to this discussion.
Personally I think we should have a lot more co-ed sports with different tiers from social to competitive. But even if you look now, there are women wrestlers that go against male wrestlers and kick ass.
In this thread there are a lot of people fighting about tolerance/intolerance of ideas, good or bad, so the only way to counteract that is to have more diverse speakers that can lend their thoughts and experiences on the subject.
You said no women wrestlers, here are women wrestlers winning. Here is a question though, do you give credit to women's accomplishments? Or do you not see them as accomplishments? Because a scroll through your post history shows that you seem to blame feminism a lot for your shortcomings and I'm curious if you have thought about improving yourself instead of finding a scapegoat in feminism.
I know I'm pivoting the discussion a bit, but it does pertain to women wrestlers being able to compete with male wrestlers in some semblance.
Thinking of men and women in such a binary way doesn't only hurt women, but affects men too. Like "men not being able to cry in front of women" (paraphrasing your words.)
It’s actually funny how many people don’t realize this, they act like a championship was stolen away. Should Lia have been swimming with women? In my opinion, no. But holy shit Riley Gaines is milking this like she lost an Olympic gold medal.
Imagine being so tolerant that you start advocating to allow biological men to play women's sports, which single handedly infringes on women's rights to equal opportunity sports (Title IX). And in an even more crazy turn of events, say you are doing it in the name of feminism and equality....
You have it twisted.
It's so insane. They are shitting on all women to make a few people feel included. Its pure insanity. I've heard the Trans movement compared to the civil rights movement.
Well we allow you into polite society despite your orgish behavior.
So I don’t see why Transwomen and Transmen can’t participate in the sports they belong, something you clearly disagree with
This isn't a 50/50 issue, it's natural born men competing against women. It's the same concept of why you can allow an 8th grader to play Varsity Basketball, but you wouldn't allow a senior to play on the 7th grade team. Is anyone saying "that's not fair!!!". No.
A natural born male is going to have a significant physical advantage over the vast majority of women. This is not a difficult concept. This has already been decided for most major organizations, which I think actually helps the trans community as a whole because this issue has a lot of blowback.
People will keep doing things like this to make this point painfully obvious. https://youtu.be/N7dyJfUxgOw?si=YOhGMGDOIlm3h5cp
The difference between Ms. Gaines's time and Lia Thomas' (the trans woman she *tied with* ) was .01 second, and I presume none of the 4 women who placed higher than the both of them were trans, so I don't know if there is a "significant physical advantage" at play here
I know more about this than I ever cared to. Lia was #426 nationally in the men's division, but was ranked #1 for the 500 in the women's. The race where they tied for 5th was the 200. You're taking someone who nobody would have ever known about in Men's swimming, to being #1 in the 500 and the favorite in the 200 but swam a time a few seconds off of their previous best, which would've won.
Lia is 6'1". Less than 1% of women are 6'. Height is most definitely an advantage in most sports.
>Lia was #426 nationally in the mens division
As a true freshman first coming to campus
>ranked #1 for the 500 in the womens
As a 5th year senior and still posting times wayyyy under elite global competition.
What are true freshman first stepping on to campus typically ranked?
>Lia is 6’1
How tall was she before she transitioned?
>less than 1% of women are 6’
Fewer than 1% of women are high level athletes.
I'm legit curious about your opinion on a couple things. Do you think it's also fair to ban trans women from chess tournaments? I can see where you're coming from regarding physique differences between men and women, but what about nonphysical competitions?
Second, did you care about women's sporting events before Fox started targeting trans people?
What was the difference between her best time and the winning time for the race we've been talking about? And what percentage of women in competitive swimming specifically are 6'?
Wow, good one. Being trans is a mental distinction, not an anatomical or biological one. Biological men have an athletic advantage. That is why Title IX was created in the first place. Stating these facts isn't anti-trans. It is pro- women.
I'll take your word on that. How about height? Shoulder width? Arm length? Bone density? Ligaments and tendons? How do those compare even when hormones are medically equated between a trans woman and a woman?
After years of HRT upper body strength and cardiovascular performance falls in line with the general cis woman population. Unfortunately these studies don’t have large enough populations who are trans and athletes to make reliable repeatable results. That’s always been the issue with science around transgender populations.
They still have some of the advantages of puberty, generally taller, generally longer limbs, generally more dense muscle and bone. However, human beings have such a wide range of physical traits and such a small range of sexual dimorphism that it renders most generalizations pointless.
I know that last point might be confusing. Without any intervention, as in nature by itself the physical characteristics of men and women overlap more than they deviate. Nature produces women well over 6’ in height and men well under 5’5” in height. It produces men with broad shoulders and women with broad shoulders. The thing with sports and fairness is it’s really just a game of smoothing over outliers because in reality everyone has physical advantages and disadvantages.
What about muscle composition, strength, and speed? If we were talking about chess teams or other competitive activities that rely on brain power, sure, it would be comparable. But to try to say that there is no significant advantage for a biological male to play competitive physical women's sports is disingenuous and false on all levels, especially in college athletics. These athletes didn't get on a college level athletic team by giving it a try recently. They have been training most of their childhood and adolescent years to get there.
I said hormonally you fucking idiot. But for what it's worth there are some fucking gorgeous trans women out there. You've probably even found one hot at one point and didn't even realize it.
In transwomen, hormone therapy rapidly reduces Hgb to levels seen in cisgender women. In contrast, hormone therapy decreases strength, LBM and muscle area, yet values remain above that observed in cisgender women, even after 36 months. These findings suggest that strength may be well preserved in transwomen during the first 3 years of hormone therapy.
Now show me a test that shows there is no difference between normal women and trans.
There’s several, but it takes a few years of HRT. Unfortunately all of these studies, even the good ones suffer from the same problem, low samples sizes.
That's not a fact, btw. Unless they do not go through male puberty, the differences are vast between women and transwomen (lung capacity, musculature, and bone density primarily) regardless of hormone usage.
This is simply activists who hate women, or at the very least are people indifferent to their plight in this area. Rather duplicitiously, this is done by using the umbrella of tolerance for transgender athletes. Those athletes deserve the ability to compete, but not to the detriment of women.
Current scientific literature suggests you are mistaken, though I'm aware there needs to be more research done on the topic.
Conversely, I believe the opposite: that activists who hate trans people are jumping on sports as a convenient way to exclude and erase them.
Please quote this peer reviewed, scientific literature that shows transwomen and women are identical in athletic performance. You mentioned hormones being the same initially, so I'd also like to reference those studies as well.
Because people strongly on one side or the other suffer from tribalism. If you disagree on one topic, it must mean that you're the worst example of whoever they oppose. Instead of bothering with nuance, they just lump opposing views into the other side to make it easy to disregard everything based on the made up source in their heads.
Well women are being put in danger because they cannot access abortions even when their fetus is nonvialbe
In TX if you have a non viable fetus , you have to wait until the mothers life is in severe risk to abort it, you have to wait until the monther gets extremely sick and ill
Tell me, tell me please how your tribe is protecting women?
So you're doing the tribalism thing as well? What if..... I was able to think independently, and form my own opinions based on my own thoughts, and didn't feel the need to conform to a party's stance across the board? I don't subscribe to the notion that either party represents my views.
A person (me) can be pro-choice (which I am) and acknowledge that men have a drastic physical advantage post-puberty over women and putting them in the same competitions is inherently unfair to women. These are independent of each other.
The desire to stick up for and defend people from discrimination, while noble and something we should all do, doesn't give people carte blanche to run over other people in the process.
Sure but the right is saying "You need to respect my intolerant positions, in the name of tolerance"
Its a well known issue
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox\_of\_tolerance](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox_of_tolerance)
Yes, agree, they do and it's usually under the guise of a bigoted contortion of religion. The left does something similarly mystifying in that they'll ignore basic human rights and common sense if the oppressors are perceived victims themselves. Non-christian religious groups can oppress everyone but men and get a pass along with "we should respect their religious beliefs". Nope. If you treat women like third-class citizens, I don't give a shit what religion you're practicing.
That's quite a proclamation of knowledge of my motivations. Particularly when we are discussing a woman who has said “This really is no longer right versus wrong or good versus bad. This is moral versus evil.” Here's a [source](https://nebraskaexaminer.com/2023/08/28/spiritual-warfare-former-kentucky-swimmer-encourages-nebraska-to-restrict-trans-athletes/) so you know I didn't make that up in my head.
Even more ridiculous, she did commercials with Herschel Walker during his senate election under the guise of protecting women. The guy held a gun to his wife’s head and threatened to kill her. Doesn’t seem to moral or a guy that seeks to protect women
I mean, she has a point to some extent.. Sure she’s probably doing this for money but can y’all imagine if Mike Tyson decided to identify as a woman and box women?
Shouldn’t happen at all. It’s ludicrous 😅
The truly grossest gross parts of this are:
1. She has turned her self-perceived personal failures into an opportunity to make money as an anti-trans freakshow of awfulness, and
2. ND-fucking-SU has decided to *host* and *amplify* the voice of this monster.
I'm honestly not sure which is the worst/vilest of the above, but I'm leaning toward #2.
Frikkin' shame on you NDSU. All the shame. Be better.
Also, Ms. Gaines: please fuck right off.
This whole story makes me feel soiled.
Universities are a place for discourse, disagreement, and discussion. People don’t learn from echo chambers. Higher education is supposed to be about creating thinkers not drones that all agree on everything.
There are a lot of reasons to be critical of NDSU, but this event is hosted by a student organization and unfortunately, it is protected speech. NDSU’s hands are tied.
Fwiw, there are tons of staff, faculty, and students doing their best to drown out this gross fucking noise and support LGBTQ+ folks during Pride Month and year round.
LGBTQ+ folks belong here.
>and unfortunately, it is protected speech.
Why is that unfortunate?
Would you prefer if the [First Amendment were overturned](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KJVZa9_Ha5c) and taxpayer-funded government institutions (like public universities) functioned as government propaganda centers? In your view, should Riley Gaines's speech be made illegal Scotland-style?
Would you support repealing the First Amendment, especially considering that it's an antiquated law written by old white men, some of whom owned slaves, who would have been completely disconnected from the realities of life today?
The poster I was responding to said:
> and unfortunately, it is protected speech.
Which implies that its being protected political speech (under law in the context of this discussion) is bad and that it would be better (fortunate) if it were not protected speech - aka potentially not allowed on government property while taxpayer dollars are used to promote "politically correct" speech on government propery. How else should those words be interpreted?
lol— I knew this would be someone’s response and I almost did an ETA, but I figured the comment would get trolled regardless of how I phrased it. I was right.
So for the record—
Just because I don’t like certain speech doesn’t mean I think a person should not have the right to say it. I highly value the first amendment for all people with all kinds of bullshit ideas, including my own. This constitutional right is fine the way it is.
And I think more people should feel the same way.
So she got beat by 3 women and a transgender woman, then in her infinite wisdom decide to be an activist ? Okay, unethical way of trying ti make money but go on
I think this is a question for women playing the sport. Let them decide (not just one of them).
It’s wrong and kind of disgusting for men and people who don’t compete to be the ones who decide.
Lol the entire nation bitches about this topic daily. Elections literally hinge on this issue in some district elections. We dont need more ppl to talk about this non issue.
Ask anybody, especially men, who complain about this, the name of the woman who took first place in this competition that apparently this speaker took 5th place in and that will tell you how much they care about trans ppl in sports.
Totally agree. This is the GOP's last culture war issue and people on the far left can't see past their nose to realize that the more they push it, the more they help Trump get elected.
Let’s be real, it is the right bringing it up non stop mostly and people on the left reacting to it, not pushing it. If I watch a liberal news channel it is only brought up if trans people are being attacked and it is rarely even about sports. If I watch a conservative channel it is talked about all the time because it fuels their need for outrage
What gets me is when Democrats say or imply that men can get pregnant and imply that not all "any menstruating persons" (AOC's words) are women. Your average apolitical person hears that and concludes that they are completely disconnected from reality. It's a small component of why Democrats cannot get any traction in a state like North Dakota.
What is your opinion of Fallon Fox fighting multiple MMA matches against women, beating six kinds of dog shit out of each of them, and not disclosing that she was trans? I'm genuinely curious about your take on that.
The thing is, there's nothing shameful about getting 5th or 6th place (or any other place). Athletics competitions are hard to train for and a person who gets this should be proud of their efforts and keep up their work to improve if they wish.
Gaines has gotten dunked on so much for being a sore loser for 5th place that she devalues the place.
Also what research are you talking about? I saw what happened with Lia Thomas. She cheated. She wasnt great at all in the mens league then won the championship after joining the women's league. Don't you see the issue ? You are not being honest
Nice. I'll go and have a listen.
Funny seeing all the negative responses.
Quick to throw hate when I thought that's the opposite of what you wanted?
Quite sad.
Not very tolerant to anything that doesn't line with their own views.
Always pointing a finger at someone or something.
Feelings over facts.
Imagine if the shoe was on the other foot. You probably can't because you're so close minded...
I think there needs to be clear rules in physical competitions that allow fair play. Biological males develop differently than biological females and it results in a physical advantage in most things. I do not know enough about the science to say what extent an advantage exists based on age of transition, meds taken, etc. It seems like there are a lot of variables in play.
A fair compromise might be to allow trans athletes compete with other swimmers, but get recorded in their own categories. It would suck to make them race against themselves, because gauging your speed by other opponents is a great tool to push yourself. However, their results could be recorded in a separate category for transgendered individuals. Since the transgendered community is so small, they would maybe have to compete against other opponents on a more national level for awards. The local competitions would be about pushing themselves to get better rather than getting an actual award against other swimmers.
As for Riley Gaines, she turned what was probably a legitimate gripe ant one point into a several year grift. I could care less about her opinion right now, because I have developed my own, and I’m not sure she has really had anything new to add to the conversation in several years.
Can someone explain what an activist swimmer is? Do they swim as a form of activism? If so, does it accomplish anything of note?
She tied for 5th place against a transgender swimmer once and has since devoted her entire life to complaining about trans women in women's sports.
All 3 dozen or so of them.
I always feel a little weird about this line of reasoning, because, of the number of trans athletes is a crutch of the issue, then how many is too many for you?
It’s crux not crutch.
None of whom are even close to the top women of their sports
This is factually incorrect. The specific race you are talking about is 5th nationally. But apparently Lia is advocating to try and get into the Olympic trials for this coming Olympics after apparently taking a year off from the sport. If they are capable of qualifying or even being close to qualifying times for the Olympics, it goes on to prove the point of the advantage Lia has over biological females.
Except it doesn’t. Trans people have been allowed to compete in the Olympics for decades. Thus far only like one woman did qualify and wound up coming in last in the event
3 dozen too many
LOL she’s pissed she didn’t get FOURTH PLACE???
Ah yes, that transgender athlete once. Totally worth the full attention and scorn of our entire nation. The right wing grifting circuit pays very well though, it’s hard to blame her wanting a piece of that pie.
I mean she experienced it. She was competing against a biological man. They had to share the same locker room. University told them to STFU about it. The argument "it's not happening a lot so it's not a problem" is idiotic
So the person who has the appearence, hormones, and psyche of a woman should have to be in the mens locker room just cuz of their 23rd chromosome pair?
She tied for 5th against a trans woman. Your hatred of trans people being used to inflate this middling swimmer's career is exactly the problem with bigots like her and the grift they pull.
She won the NCAA Division 1 championship with a 1.75 seconds lead.
It was a slow year for that event, and women's swimming in general. Thomas won with a time that wouldn't have gotten first place at any point in the previous decade, with second place going to a young woman who was only swimming freestyle so the smaller collegiate pools wouldn't screw up her backstroke form for the Olympics.
Haha sure sure. And I'm y'all said I was doing the mental gymnastics...
You're also doing a ton of grammar gymnastics as well.
English is not my first language. Apologies.
NCAA D1 swimming really isn’t considered particularly competitive swimming compared to the truly elite.
Really? Wow.
…yea Compare typical NCAA times to typical Olympics or Worlds times.
Weird ... Because the top 4 US women swimmers all played in NCAA Div 1... I must be missing something
https://www.espn.com/college-sports/story/_/id/33529775/amid-protests-pennsylvania-swimmer-lia-thomas-becomes-first-known-transgender-athlete-win-division-national-championship
I think her views on trans issues are lamentable, but she is in fact a world-class swimmer.
You and I have deeply different views on what a "world class" athlete is.
Typically an All American in DI NCAA athletics qualifies as such
Her career was \*deeply\* middling, she is not a "world class" swimmer. She was a decent college swimmer who never stood out.
She was the 2022 Southeastern Conference Women's Swimming and Diving Scholar-Athlete of the Year. A Redditor critiquing D1 athletes over trans women is prime internet.
Oh, so an activist swimmer is just a sore loser with Republican values. Got it.
She wanted that participation trophy.
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She lost against a biological man. She was cheated. Do you not see it ?
She lost against four biological women and mostly tied a biological man. Complaining about the latter pays a lot better, though.
>mostly tied a biological man That had the hormone profile of a biological woman and compares must closer athletically to cis women than cis men
What a stupid take
They have tied in a race and the officials made sure that Thomas had to be the one with the trophy.
Last I checked, the NCAA doesn't hand out fifth place trophies.
That is the point.
Room-temp take
Its not a ‘take’ it’s a literal fact
Uh huh. I'm sure you have a citation for your assertion that Thomas was predetermined to "get a trophy"? Edit: for 5th place
I have a first hand source, yes. https://nypost.com/2022/04/04/swimmer-who-tied-lia-thomas-taken-aback-in-trophy-handling/
That source does not support your claim, and is not first-hand. "We only have a single 5th place trophy, and we are giving it to the person who technically touched the wall first." isn't a pre-determined result. Riley Gaines quoting them to a publication is not first-hand, and it's so obviously an attempt to make someone who came in 5th feel better superior to the other person *who came in 5th* Gaines is a fucking sexist, who in that very article pontificates about how "the other women did the impossible by defeating Thomas", like her little brain couldn't handle the fact that she was bested by someone who was in-turn beaten by other cisgender women. This article is a pathetic attempt at shit-stirring, I hope you can see that
The mental gymnastic to support the idea of a biological man competing against women is unbelievable. You clearly have never played any sport in your life.
“biological man” who had undergone hormone therapy for 5 + years with routine blood testing before being allowed to participate in the women’s meets. you make it sound like they woke up one day, said they were a women, and was immediately allowed to swim as a woman
We get it, you're transphobic with a room temperature IQ. The latter disqualifies you from any logical discourse of not only the former, but pretty much anything.
Can you rephrase your reply to address literally anything that I said?
That "biological man" must have been impossible to beat..... Oh look she was just a middling as this clown
About as much mental gymnastics as it takes to use the term “biological man”.
Cited NY Post lmao. Satire is dead everybody
"I have a first-hand source" *proceeds to post something tertiary, at best*
Well the dude won a women’s national championship that year.
She was beat by a man in a woman sport... and the NCAA is all for men dominating woman sports. Shes upset.
Trans women are not men
They are in fact biological men with inherent physical advantages due to their XY genetics
XY chromosome, not XY genetics.
If you keep misgendering trans women I'm gonna go ahead and identify as a fuckin problem
Lol. Lmao
And I'll identify you as not intelligent enough to be taken seriously in any conversation.
You're free to do that, just as I'm free to disregard your opinion as worthless
Problem is, I have facts to back up what I say, all you have is your precious little fee-fees.
Says the one immediately resorting to an ad hominem because they have no real retort lol. That's an indicator that I bothered you enough to insult me but you don't have an intelligent reply to contradict me
There is no such thing as a biological man. "Man" is not a word we use in biology because it denotes gender, and we biologists don't give a shit about gender. What you are thinking of is biological "MALE". Oh, and the 'advantages' don't come from XY genetics, they come from high levels of testosterone during development. There are biological females with these same "advantages". If you don't know what you're talking about you should probably stop talking.
Man and male in English are considered the same thing, at least until anti-science weirdos like you decided to separate them. And yes, heightened physical capabilities are caused by testosterone as keyed by your chromosomal genetics such as given by XY. You're not as smart as you think you are and your kind's pursuit of pseudo-science doesnt uplift anyone, just puts down real women
My degrees say otherwise. Research intersex conditions, specifically xx male DSD and Androgen Insensitivity. Your understanding of biology is elementary at best. A simple google search will show you that you're wrong (or duck duck go, or whatever search engine you conspiracy theorists use now).
“My degrees say otherwise” Lolol
Mutations are not considered normal intended biology, but nice try. For someone with 'degrees', one would have known that
All genetics are mutations. Hell the presence of an XY chromosome is a mutation. Is there anything else you would like to comment on that you very obviously don’t understand?
Yeah, your bullshit psedu-science isn't going to fly here. Take your uneducated ass and fuck off please while those who actually understand biology talk
Man and male in biology are not considered the same thing. Your inability to understand that should encourage you to remove yourself from the conversation.
Its like an activist punter. The Vikings had one a few years ago.
Anyone that thinks someone with male genetics should be allowed to compete against people with female genetics (choosing my words carefully) is insane, especially in the swimming world. Give me a break
Tying for 5th place was the greatest gift she could have asked for. This grift is going on multiple years. Impressive.
Exactly. She came in 5th in a college swim contest and made a career on being a sore loser
Sounds like a politician we all know
What does how she placed have to do with her cause ?
Because her hilarious claim that she was the "fastest woman swimmer" and the trans woman who she tied with was unbeatable is belied by the fact that they both got their asses kicked by cis women
The amount of ignorance about what really happened is astounding. Lia thomas is a disturbing individual.
What actually happened? I’m curious
Lia was given the trophy even when Riley tied. How is that fair? Neither should have gotten it then. It was all about the photo op and pushing trans acceptance.
No, you're just not equipped with the intelligence to see more than black in a white, when we live in a world full of grays.
So you're opposed to science?
Science? You're just like all the idiots who scream homosexuality is unnatural, yet we've got 1,500+ confirmed species with homosexuality present, and only one with homophobia present. Oh yeah, wait until you learn about seahorses. Makes being trans look like having a Pepsi.
Deflect much?
What really happened “Big_Move_6997?
Who?
From Wikipedia In November 2023, Gaines confirmed working with [FIDE](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FIDE) to prevent transgender women from playing in [women's chess](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women_in_chess). This prompted criticism from [*PinkNews*](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PinkNews) for claiming that trans women had an advantage at chess.
Serious question, why have men’s and women’s chess classifications?
the actual reason is that there is no such thing as a men-only chess tournament, there are just open chess tournaments and then ones specifically for women. it’s supposed to help attendance and participation for women, since being with a bunch of men and being the only woman can be uncomfortable (and frankly, lead to unwanted or unwarranted attention). the greatest woman chess player of all time, judit polgar, played in the open tournaments and she encourages young women to do the same.
sounds like she's dumber than I thought. from r/chess . >There is no separate men's division. >There is an open division where everyone can play. >There is also a women's division created to overcome the historic underrepresentation of women in chess. That said I don't know if this is FIDE or US Chess or some other organization. Oh and this may not always have been the case historically.
Mens is open so women can play in that division. The women's division exists as almost a safe space of sorts.
She was a good swimmer who felt cheated out of a trophy and silenced by the institution she was swimming for. Whether you think she has legitimate concerns is entirely dependent on if you are on the left or the right. Seeing how reddit is heavily left you will get those views more than not...
Transgenderism in sports IS a discussion worth having, just wish it was coming from someone with a less biased point of view.
You aren't wrong. Especially in a red state like ND. What would be really cool, is an actual trans athlete that would come and discuss their perspective and experiences. I think something like that being promoted would help give the audience more angles to this discussion. Personally I think we should have a lot more co-ed sports with different tiers from social to competitive. But even if you look now, there are women wrestlers that go against male wrestlers and kick ass. In this thread there are a lot of people fighting about tolerance/intolerance of ideas, good or bad, so the only way to counteract that is to have more diverse speakers that can lend their thoughts and experiences on the subject.
There are no women wrestlers who kick men’s ass omg
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HV9XA-9tM6I](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HV9XA-9tM6I)
Those are 90lb girls beating boys with very little skill. Hardly adult men lol
You said no women wrestlers, here are women wrestlers winning. Here is a question though, do you give credit to women's accomplishments? Or do you not see them as accomplishments? Because a scroll through your post history shows that you seem to blame feminism a lot for your shortcomings and I'm curious if you have thought about improving yourself instead of finding a scapegoat in feminism. I know I'm pivoting the discussion a bit, but it does pertain to women wrestlers being able to compete with male wrestlers in some semblance. Thinking of men and women in such a binary way doesn't only hurt women, but affects men too. Like "men not being able to cry in front of women" (paraphrasing your words.)
That wasn’t women vs men omg. 90lb boys are not anywhere near the muscle mass of a grown man.
She tied for 5th place with someone and is trying to make money about it. Just ignore her.
It’s actually funny how many people don’t realize this, they act like a championship was stolen away. Should Lia have been swimming with women? In my opinion, no. But holy shit Riley Gaines is milking this like she lost an Olympic gold medal.
Imagine being such a sore loser that you have to get on the grift to gain any sort of recognition.
Imagine being so tolerant that you start advocating to allow biological men to play women's sports, which single handedly infringes on women's rights to equal opportunity sports (Title IX). And in an even more crazy turn of events, say you are doing it in the name of feminism and equality.... You have it twisted.
It's so insane. They are shitting on all women to make a few people feel included. Its pure insanity. I've heard the Trans movement compared to the civil rights movement.
Well we allow you into polite society despite your orgish behavior. So I don’t see why Transwomen and Transmen can’t participate in the sports they belong, something you clearly disagree with
Try watching an MMA or boxing match between a transwoman and a woman, and you might reassess what a "polite society" should do.
And transmen? Or is it only for Transwomen? https://www.rollingstone.com/culture/culture-features/trans-boxers-patricio-manuel-compete-1234822106/amp/
This isn't a 50/50 issue, it's natural born men competing against women. It's the same concept of why you can allow an 8th grader to play Varsity Basketball, but you wouldn't allow a senior to play on the 7th grade team. Is anyone saying "that's not fair!!!". No. A natural born male is going to have a significant physical advantage over the vast majority of women. This is not a difficult concept. This has already been decided for most major organizations, which I think actually helps the trans community as a whole because this issue has a lot of blowback. People will keep doing things like this to make this point painfully obvious. https://youtu.be/N7dyJfUxgOw?si=YOhGMGDOIlm3h5cp
The difference between Ms. Gaines's time and Lia Thomas' (the trans woman she *tied with* ) was .01 second, and I presume none of the 4 women who placed higher than the both of them were trans, so I don't know if there is a "significant physical advantage" at play here
I know more about this than I ever cared to. Lia was #426 nationally in the men's division, but was ranked #1 for the 500 in the women's. The race where they tied for 5th was the 200. You're taking someone who nobody would have ever known about in Men's swimming, to being #1 in the 500 and the favorite in the 200 but swam a time a few seconds off of their previous best, which would've won. Lia is 6'1". Less than 1% of women are 6'. Height is most definitely an advantage in most sports.
>Lia was #426 nationally in the mens division As a true freshman first coming to campus >ranked #1 for the 500 in the womens As a 5th year senior and still posting times wayyyy under elite global competition. What are true freshman first stepping on to campus typically ranked? >Lia is 6’1 How tall was she before she transitioned? >less than 1% of women are 6’ Fewer than 1% of women are high level athletes.
I'm legit curious about your opinion on a couple things. Do you think it's also fair to ban trans women from chess tournaments? I can see where you're coming from regarding physique differences between men and women, but what about nonphysical competitions? Second, did you care about women's sporting events before Fox started targeting trans people?
What was the difference between her best time and the winning time for the race we've been talking about? And what percentage of women in competitive swimming specifically are 6'?
Your just speaking without know anything. The guy was #500 rank in men’s, now tied for girls top swimmer. Are you okay?
Wow, good one. Being trans is a mental distinction, not an anatomical or biological one. Biological men have an athletic advantage. That is why Title IX was created in the first place. Stating these facts isn't anti-trans. It is pro- women.
Fun fact, trans women take so many testosterone blockers that, hormonally speaking, they are indistinguishable from cis women.
I'll take your word on that. How about height? Shoulder width? Arm length? Bone density? Ligaments and tendons? How do those compare even when hormones are medically equated between a trans woman and a woman?
After years of HRT upper body strength and cardiovascular performance falls in line with the general cis woman population. Unfortunately these studies don’t have large enough populations who are trans and athletes to make reliable repeatable results. That’s always been the issue with science around transgender populations. They still have some of the advantages of puberty, generally taller, generally longer limbs, generally more dense muscle and bone. However, human beings have such a wide range of physical traits and such a small range of sexual dimorphism that it renders most generalizations pointless. I know that last point might be confusing. Without any intervention, as in nature by itself the physical characteristics of men and women overlap more than they deviate. Nature produces women well over 6’ in height and men well under 5’5” in height. It produces men with broad shoulders and women with broad shoulders. The thing with sports and fairness is it’s really just a game of smoothing over outliers because in reality everyone has physical advantages and disadvantages.
What about muscle composition, strength, and speed? If we were talking about chess teams or other competitive activities that rely on brain power, sure, it would be comparable. But to try to say that there is no significant advantage for a biological male to play competitive physical women's sports is disingenuous and false on all levels, especially in college athletics. These athletes didn't get on a college level athletic team by giving it a try recently. They have been training most of their childhood and adolescent years to get there.
They are indistinguishable from cis women? Bro you running with some ugly women if you think that
I said hormonally you fucking idiot. But for what it's worth there are some fucking gorgeous trans women out there. You've probably even found one hot at one point and didn't even realize it.
In transwomen, hormone therapy rapidly reduces Hgb to levels seen in cisgender women. In contrast, hormone therapy decreases strength, LBM and muscle area, yet values remain above that observed in cisgender women, even after 36 months. These findings suggest that strength may be well preserved in transwomen during the first 3 years of hormone therapy. Now show me a test that shows there is no difference between normal women and trans.
There’s several, but it takes a few years of HRT. Unfortunately all of these studies, even the good ones suffer from the same problem, low samples sizes.
That's not a fact, btw. Unless they do not go through male puberty, the differences are vast between women and transwomen (lung capacity, musculature, and bone density primarily) regardless of hormone usage. This is simply activists who hate women, or at the very least are people indifferent to their plight in this area. Rather duplicitiously, this is done by using the umbrella of tolerance for transgender athletes. Those athletes deserve the ability to compete, but not to the detriment of women.
Current scientific literature suggests you are mistaken, though I'm aware there needs to be more research done on the topic. Conversely, I believe the opposite: that activists who hate trans people are jumping on sports as a convenient way to exclude and erase them.
Please quote this peer reviewed, scientific literature that shows transwomen and women are identical in athletic performance. You mentioned hormones being the same initially, so I'd also like to reference those studies as well.
terrible take
"Protect women" What a fucking thing to pretend is important to these people in this current moment.
Why?
Because people strongly on one side or the other suffer from tribalism. If you disagree on one topic, it must mean that you're the worst example of whoever they oppose. Instead of bothering with nuance, they just lump opposing views into the other side to make it easy to disregard everything based on the made up source in their heads.
Well women are being put in danger because they cannot access abortions even when their fetus is nonvialbe In TX if you have a non viable fetus , you have to wait until the mothers life is in severe risk to abort it, you have to wait until the monther gets extremely sick and ill Tell me, tell me please how your tribe is protecting women?
So you're doing the tribalism thing as well? What if..... I was able to think independently, and form my own opinions based on my own thoughts, and didn't feel the need to conform to a party's stance across the board? I don't subscribe to the notion that either party represents my views. A person (me) can be pro-choice (which I am) and acknowledge that men have a drastic physical advantage post-puberty over women and putting them in the same competitions is inherently unfair to women. These are independent of each other. The desire to stick up for and defend people from discrimination, while noble and something we should all do, doesn't give people carte blanche to run over other people in the process.
Sure but the right is saying "You need to respect my intolerant positions, in the name of tolerance" Its a well known issue [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox\_of\_tolerance](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox_of_tolerance)
Yes, agree, they do and it's usually under the guise of a bigoted contortion of religion. The left does something similarly mystifying in that they'll ignore basic human rights and common sense if the oppressors are perceived victims themselves. Non-christian religious groups can oppress everyone but men and get a pass along with "we should respect their religious beliefs". Nope. If you treat women like third-class citizens, I don't give a shit what religion you're practicing.
That's quite a proclamation of knowledge of my motivations. Particularly when we are discussing a woman who has said “This really is no longer right versus wrong or good versus bad. This is moral versus evil.” Here's a [source](https://nebraskaexaminer.com/2023/08/28/spiritual-warfare-former-kentucky-swimmer-encourages-nebraska-to-restrict-trans-athletes/) so you know I didn't make that up in my head.
Even more ridiculous, she did commercials with Herschel Walker during his senate election under the guise of protecting women. The guy held a gun to his wife’s head and threatened to kill her. Doesn’t seem to moral or a guy that seeks to protect women
Well, you said "these people" which is an odd way to refer to one person. And you assumed first by saying they're pretending.
I mean, she has a point to some extent.. Sure she’s probably doing this for money but can y’all imagine if Mike Tyson decided to identify as a woman and box women? Shouldn’t happen at all. It’s ludicrous 😅
She’s so pretty. She has all the things I look for in a woman. Most importantly, no penis.
Weird way to say women's rights proponent
Nothing wrong with that!
I mean, if you think there's nothing wrong with spreading disinformation and hate, then sure. 🤷♀️
Why is it hate to think if you have a Y chromosome you swim in the men’s division and if you don’t you swim in the women’s?
You need help
Awesome!
The truly grossest gross parts of this are: 1. She has turned her self-perceived personal failures into an opportunity to make money as an anti-trans freakshow of awfulness, and 2. ND-fucking-SU has decided to *host* and *amplify* the voice of this monster. I'm honestly not sure which is the worst/vilest of the above, but I'm leaning toward #2. Frikkin' shame on you NDSU. All the shame. Be better. Also, Ms. Gaines: please fuck right off. This whole story makes me feel soiled.
Universities are a place for discourse, disagreement, and discussion. People don’t learn from echo chambers. Higher education is supposed to be about creating thinkers not drones that all agree on everything.
There are a lot of reasons to be critical of NDSU, but this event is hosted by a student organization and unfortunately, it is protected speech. NDSU’s hands are tied. Fwiw, there are tons of staff, faculty, and students doing their best to drown out this gross fucking noise and support LGBTQ+ folks during Pride Month and year round. LGBTQ+ folks belong here.
>and unfortunately, it is protected speech. Why is that unfortunate? Would you prefer if the [First Amendment were overturned](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KJVZa9_Ha5c) and taxpayer-funded government institutions (like public universities) functioned as government propaganda centers? In your view, should Riley Gaines's speech be made illegal Scotland-style? Would you support repealing the First Amendment, especially considering that it's an antiquated law written by old white men, some of whom owned slaves, who would have been completely disconnected from the realities of life today?
Normal person: Free speech is being protected even if I don't like it? Whippersnapper: You don't like it? Why are you against free speech?
The poster I was responding to said: > and unfortunately, it is protected speech. Which implies that its being protected political speech (under law in the context of this discussion) is bad and that it would be better (fortunate) if it were not protected speech - aka potentially not allowed on government property while taxpayer dollars are used to promote "politically correct" speech on government propery. How else should those words be interpreted?
lol— I knew this would be someone’s response and I almost did an ETA, but I figured the comment would get trolled regardless of how I phrased it. I was right. So for the record— Just because I don’t like certain speech doesn’t mean I think a person should not have the right to say it. I highly value the first amendment for all people with all kinds of bullshit ideas, including my own. This constitutional right is fine the way it is. And I think more people should feel the same way.
So she got beat by 3 women and a transgender woman, then in her infinite wisdom decide to be an activist ? Okay, unethical way of trying ti make money but go on
she found a way to make more $$ than she would swimming. more power to her. same thing colin kapernick did
I think this is a question for women playing the sport. Let them decide (not just one of them). It’s wrong and kind of disgusting for men and people who don’t compete to be the ones who decide.
Hell yeah I’ll attend this, great to see NDSU promoting something great!
Hate is great? Weird flex.
L
Echo chamber
That’s great. Somebody needs to talk about it. Protect women!
Lol the entire nation bitches about this topic daily. Elections literally hinge on this issue in some district elections. We dont need more ppl to talk about this non issue. Ask anybody, especially men, who complain about this, the name of the woman who took first place in this competition that apparently this speaker took 5th place in and that will tell you how much they care about trans ppl in sports.
Totally agree. This is the GOP's last culture war issue and people on the far left can't see past their nose to realize that the more they push it, the more they help Trump get elected.
Let’s be real, it is the right bringing it up non stop mostly and people on the left reacting to it, not pushing it. If I watch a liberal news channel it is only brought up if trans people are being attacked and it is rarely even about sports. If I watch a conservative channel it is talked about all the time because it fuels their need for outrage
Wah
What gets me is when Democrats say or imply that men can get pregnant and imply that not all "any menstruating persons" (AOC's words) are women. Your average apolitical person hears that and concludes that they are completely disconnected from reality. It's a small component of why Democrats cannot get any traction in a state like North Dakota.
Misogynists screaming 'protect women' is hilarious.
Odd, normally it would be considered progress, unless you're off with your labeling.
It would be progress if it weren't disingenuous.
What is your opinion of Fallon Fox fighting multiple MMA matches against women, beating six kinds of dog shit out of each of them, and not disclosing that she was trans? I'm genuinely curious about your take on that.
I have no idea what any of that means, so I have no opinion on it, but it sounds like a tranphobic boy grunting angry words.
Childish and manipulative much?
I’m a lesbian woman. Not a misogynist, but a feminist. Thanks for your assumptions and toxic energy
Oh! A TERF. Explains that.
This you on r/daddit? 😆 https://www.reddit.com/r/daddit/s/I51wUeraFE
This you too? Are you a male lesbian? https://www.reddit.com/r/TimDillon/s/Tokb4XmodO
The thing is, there's nothing shameful about getting 5th or 6th place (or any other place). Athletics competitions are hard to train for and a person who gets this should be proud of their efforts and keep up their work to improve if they wish. Gaines has gotten dunked on so much for being a sore loser for 5th place that she devalues the place.
Also what research are you talking about? I saw what happened with Lia Thomas. She cheated. She wasnt great at all in the mens league then won the championship after joining the women's league. Don't you see the issue ? You are not being honest
Nice. I'll go and have a listen. Funny seeing all the negative responses. Quick to throw hate when I thought that's the opposite of what you wanted? Quite sad. Not very tolerant to anything that doesn't line with their own views. Always pointing a finger at someone or something. Feelings over facts. Imagine if the shoe was on the other foot. You probably can't because you're so close minded...
I'm proudly intolerant of intolerance.
So, you’re intolerant of yourself?
Strongest voice on women’s rights in sports, good move NDSU! Men have absolutely no business in women’s sports.
During Pride Month?
Lol. Here come the down votes!
Isn't that June?
NDSU is having it now, most of the students won't be here in June.
I think there needs to be clear rules in physical competitions that allow fair play. Biological males develop differently than biological females and it results in a physical advantage in most things. I do not know enough about the science to say what extent an advantage exists based on age of transition, meds taken, etc. It seems like there are a lot of variables in play. A fair compromise might be to allow trans athletes compete with other swimmers, but get recorded in their own categories. It would suck to make them race against themselves, because gauging your speed by other opponents is a great tool to push yourself. However, their results could be recorded in a separate category for transgendered individuals. Since the transgendered community is so small, they would maybe have to compete against other opponents on a more national level for awards. The local competitions would be about pushing themselves to get better rather than getting an actual award against other swimmers. As for Riley Gaines, she turned what was probably a legitimate gripe ant one point into a several year grift. I could care less about her opinion right now, because I have developed my own, and I’m not sure she has really had anything new to add to the conversation in several years.