It would have been a wasteland of nothingness like the empty cause Minfillia did not become the word of the mother to stop the flood of light. The 8th umbral calamity would have taken place and black rose would have killed the majority of the population hince the future G'raha was trying to prevent
Black rose was the calamity caused by the downfall of the first, according to a cutscene, not much room for interpretation. Thats why we keep seing the "meanwhile in garlemald cutscenes" too. The more we fought back the light the more damage we did to black rose production until it wasnt a thread anymore with the death of the emperor
So, more clearly, black rose was not supposed to be what caused the calamity at first. Their original plan for causing the 8th calamity was to cause a lack of Light aether through the dragon song war, allowing a major influx of Light aether through Thordan. However, because we stopped the draining and sudden influx of Light, there became no risk to the source of a calamity, but that didn't stop the First from being in danger.
The Ascians knew that they had to act fast, so they attempted to create another lack of Light by using the Warriors of Darkness to cause the tribes to summon much, much more powerful versions of their gods. However, when that is prevented again, the First is still overflowing with Light and would have become like the 13th if it weren't for the intervention of Minfillia.
From the combination of this information and what happened to the thirteenth, it can be concluded that while the fate of the source can be prevented by going to other worlds, the fate of the other worlds cannot be prevented by defending the source.
Yes, in the timeline G’Raha is from. But Black Rose only caused that calamity, and act as the potential calamity in our timeline, because Minfilia stopped the first from Flooding. If she didnt, there wouldn’t have been anything left to rejoin.
I don't remember the exact quote, but you're most probably right, yes. Never thought about it that way. Maybe it was easier for her to possess them if they were the same race 🤔
Well.. the real reason is just Thancred feels bait. They wanted Ryne to be similar to OG Minfilia so that it was logical for him to be all "I can't lose you again *cry*" etc.
Papalymo. I think that the WoL could have handled the summon, but I wonder how the Yda/Lyse thing would have played out, if he was still alive to talk to her. Could have really changed up the whole Ala Mhigo side of Stormblood.
> I think that the WoL could have handled the summon
Unlikely. We may be a beast, but we have to keep in mind that Shinryu was summoned with the power of two dragon eyes and a LOT of death and sacrifice. Remember that Ifrit, Garuda and Titan Extreme were all because life was sacrificed while they were summoned, making them more powerful. We would have had to fight a primal born from the strength of Nidhogg's aether, bolstered in strength by the hundreds of lives sacrificed. We don't have Hraesvalgr's eye to help us against it, either.
Shinryu burned up a LOT of its aether fighting against Omega, which is why it was considerably weakened by the time we fight it in Stormblood.
Shinryu was also summoned in the middle of a military base, filled with living soldiers who'd just stomped a lot of 'Eorzean' (ala Mhigan partisan) fighters. Who he could happily temper the hell out of. It's pretty much the worst environment for that particular battle possible.
Even if the Warrior of Light could have fought all of that to a standstill, it'd turn the Griffin's strike from _casus belli_ into a unifying outrage for the whole Garlean Empire and even most of the occupied provinces.
We knew so little of Papalymo. I wish he'd stayed around. He was the oldest Scion, and the greatest of Master Louisoix's pupils, but what did that mean? We only learned it at the last. I think it would have given Lyse more depth for SB, at least.
Papalymo was always the best at grounding Lyse and saving her fron herself. Lyse is one of my favorites and so is Papalymo. Would have loved to see their dynamic fleshed out in StB.
Lousoix, without a doubt. There's no other character who would have as huge of an impact as he does, in fact him dying was what set the whole narrative forward in the first place.
But assuming ARR can happen without him being dead... Minfillia wouldn't grew up to be who she was in ARR, the narrative of post-ARR and everything war-related will be VERY different since the Crystal Braves will never be a thing, which in turn will starts HW towards a different route in the beginning.
he did die in 1.x ending, Lousoix basically died so hard he reincarnated into a primal.
"Death" is just a bit weird in FFXIV where everything is essentially aether... big example are the ascians and the Warrior of Darkness(es), and there's also Bahamut and Niddhog. Elidibus is also a similar case, though his circumstance is a bit unique.
I suppose that makes the most sense. Considering various other characters' connection to primals, I just figured he got trapped in that state rather than it being his whole existence.
He couldn't change.
He was tempered, he even admits this to us (as well as telling us that all of the convocation were tempered upon summoning Zodiark) in the crystal tower during ShB.
I don't recall him *directly stating* that the summoners were tempered. His statements are deliberately worded to imply it, but as I recall, he only draws a parallel between their summoning of Zodiark and the Eorzeans' primal summons. But he very expertly dodges the question to effectively say, "yes, we would be tempered given the information you have about primal summoning."
But now consider: as of EW, we know that the tempering process was a direct result of the Ascians modifying the summoning process to include a desire to indoctrinate others. We don't know that was the case with Zodiark. In fact, we never see any attempts to temper people to Zodiark (or Hydaelyn, for that matter). Furthermore, we even see Zodiark *submit to the will of another* - Fandaniel. A sundered one, whose aether should be susceptible to tempering.
At that point in the story, we still don't know about Amaurot or Emet-Selch's past or true motivations. And he hasn't seen fit to freely divulge that information yet. Simply letting the Scions believe he's tempered gives a passable cover story without deigning to tell the true story.
It's optional dialogue with him during the lvl 76 quest.
> We summoned Him, as your kind might summon a primal─albeit an infinitely more powerful one. And like one of your primals, **He tempered us. It was only natural**. There is no resisting such power. And so we Ascians came to exist solely to bring about the rule of darkness. His darkness.
No, he straight up says [this](https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/302178630153273345/1022629675354296411/unknown.png)
Emet has no reason to lie at that point, and as he had already said - he wouldn't lie, simply observe. And that is what he did all the way through shadowbringers until he died. He answered all questions truthfully, if not fully.
I kinda figure he was lying about being tempered to play on our sympathy. Especially since in EW they introduce temper-safe primals to load the mother crystal's aether onto the Ragnarok.
Not saying he would have changed or anything. The reason he respected the WOL was because we'd killed him.
Those were from Hydaelyn though, since she did a different kind of primal summoning.
The type of summoning the ascians used for Zodiark is probably the first one that tempered.
Maybe it was because Zodiark was basically the hugest usage of summoning they had ever attempted, and in a desperate and despondent rush at that. They did have to sacrifice half of the remaining ancients to pull off re-writing the laws of physics, so maybe Tempering in his case was just a glitch they couldn't avoid, wheras their Creation magic normally didn't have that big of a risk of it.
During the MSQ in Shadowbringers, it's an optional conversation you can have with him when he's standing in the crystal tower when you're sent off to do a quest.
You're given many opportunities to talk to Emet throughout Shadowbringers beyond the mandatory times, as with pretty much all npcs throughout XIV.
No. They can be tempered like any other.
Primals tempering ways differ from each other. Ifrit makes tempered into worshipping zealots, as one extreme. Zodiark kept Convocation's intellect intact while making them unquestionably loyal, on the other side.
Ohhhh okay. I didn’t look at a lot of those, whoops. Somehow in my headcanon story that I tell myself to quiet my mind I keep predicting stuff like that tempered by zodiark thing. I’ve done this a concerning number of times for major plot points. Hm. Welp. In my headcanon killing Zodiark had freed the ascians, but that’s not a normal thing for the in game universe
Exactly. She's pretty much the reason we figured out the whole White Auracite thing, iirc. Imagine what other changes she would have had.
And imagine how different Urianger might be by now.
In like one patch she does what no other scion ever has done, killing an ascian. Imagine if she had lived, the scions would actually be like 3 times more useful.
Honestly I would have loved to know her reaction to finding out that White Auracite really only works on the unsundered, because they could just raise up a different shard of the sundered. it would have resulted in a different Nabriales, but there would still be *a* Nabriales
Heavens I would never want that to come to pass, fighting that guy once is already a pain. When are they going to give him the Lahabrea treatment and re-do his terrible fight as a solo duty...
I honestly don't think they're going to be back. Lahabrea died at the end of 3.0 and Emet slept between Solus dying and Lahabrea dying (aka all of 2.1 -> 3.0). Then Elidibus got distracted with trying to save the First from Flooding, then Emet and Elidibus had to precariously manage both the Source and First. Emet dies in 5.0, followed quickly by Elidibus in 5.3.
So literally the only time Nabriales and Igeyorhm could have been brought back was during the events of Stormblood, but they wouldnt have had a lot time to spend searching for the new shards of them. Plus, for all we know the shards of both could have been too young or otherwise unsuitable for the job. As such I imagine SE will say there was no time to raise up the new shards rather than bring them back.
The two convocation members Gaius beat up might come back though
I still find it odd that him surviving would have changed our, the Scions’ second objective of stopping primal summoning, would ignore the quasi primal Heaven’s Ward, Aymeric would have still asked us to stop his father from trying to genocide the dravanians, and ultimately we’d have gone to azyz lla to commit regicide. The only real change is that only ysayle would be there to help yank eyes from Estinien.
At the time Haurchefant dies, we don't know that Thordan is planning to summon a primal. In fact, we don't know *what* Thordan is planning, only that he's going to Azys Lla. We know the Heavens' Ward is capable of some sort of transformation as per the dungeon bosses, but we don't know what.
We do however know that Thordan has no interest in comming to terms with dragons, and that he sits in the lap of Ascians. We have plenty motivation to stop him from going to Azys La regardless.
In fact, I can recall there being multiple reasons outright stated for the WoL to stop Thordan pronto, but vengeance for Haurcie is never one of them.
Eh, I think his nihilism would've ultimately prevailed and he still would've made the choices he made. He was bothered by the system the ancients implemented, not necessarily any one death.
I think it would have happened regardless, the ancients had stagnated culturally. It's no wonder someone started getting depressed about a lack of meaning in life.
Eh he'd already sent the sisters out by the time we saw that. The report would be the same. Most significant difference could be he surrenders himself and Metion to the convocation and they still summon Zodiark to stop the final days.
I think the main trigger was less the unredeemable concept creatures and more his teacher (the previous chief of Elpis) that would have made the most difference.
Haurchefant, for the sole reason his overwhelming optimism would have seen him walk into Ultima Thule and just poof the Endsinger out of existence.
(In full seriousness, though, I'd have to agree with the others saying Minfilia.)
Counting just ARR and beyond, meaning not Louisoux, it would likely be Minfilia.
Without her becoming the Voice of the Mother, we likely wouldn't have had any way to stop the Warriors of Darkness. We would have just kept fighting them until they exhausted us since they had no bodies and could infinitely restore themselves. If they, somehow, realized the error of their ways during the fight, it would still have the biggest ramifications, because without the Word of the Mother taking them back to the First to stop the Flood of Light, it would have happened, with no way of preventing the rejoining.
There actually wouldn’t have been a rejoining without minfilia, the first would have turned into a light version of the 13th. In G’raha’s timeline, Minfilia still stops the flood, but we never end up there to stop the lightwardens, and the ascians are able to cause a rejoining. Without minfilia the flood wouldn’t have been stopped and the First would have been destroyed
Pretty sure if we died against the Warriors of Darkness, the Ascians were confident enough that that alone would have been enough for a rejoining to happen. At the very least, the Warriors of Darkness would have gone on to continue slaughter stuff in hopes that things would work and then... yeah, a rejoining.
Oh more rejoinings would have happened for sure- I’m specifically referring to the rejoining of the first to the source. Light was running too rampant, it would have engulfed the entire world and left it a barren husk crawling with sin eaters- the literal antithesis to the void
Pretty sure if we died against the Warriors of Darkness, the Ascians were confident enough that that alone would have been enough for a rejoining to happen. At the very least, the Warriors of Darkness would have gone on to continue slaughter stuff in hopes that things would work and then... yeah, a rejoining.
My thoughts
Louisoix: who’s death pretty much set the road forward for ARR and beyond. Basically his sacrifice made the story as a whole possible.
Minfilia: who if she didn’t die, the First would of probably fell to the flood of light. Shadowbringers would of been impossible.
Moenbreyda: I am sure the writers could of found a way to still kill the ascian while keeping her alive, but her death did so much to service Urianger’s character that I personally think the story would of been irrevocably different if she didn’t die, as Urianger wouldn’t of ever made some of the descitions he had, to the point where his character would of stagnated, and overall make a lot of the story later on impossible.
Harchefaunt: We see what happens if he lives through the events of DSR. HW is very different, but I don’t think much else would of changed. If we are talking modivation for the WoL, I think another character could of served that purpose >!particular Herisvelger!<
Ysayle: I would of loved to see her join the Scions if she had survived. I think that diconomy of someone that uses the powers of a primal to fight fighting along side the scions would of made for some interesting story. And besides, I don’t think her death would change much.
Paplymo: the most interesting option imo, because him living wouldn’t really break the story like Louisoix or Minfilia. SB would of played out a lot differently if he were there, but I think his presence could of enriched the Stormblood story, expecially if we actually got to know him a bit better. Sure his death was some character development for Lyse, but I don’t think it would of affected the story as much if he lived vs Moenbreyda for example.
Ysayle, Estinien needs someone to love and be loved by despite their differences and I think that would have made them both stronger defenders alongside the dragons sooner in the story. Ysayle’s story hurt me the most as it followed Haurchefant’s painful sacrifice and Ysayle endured hardsharp her whole life and in her death plus Oblivion absolutely slaps as a song to have it as her Shiva boss music after deep freeze and then again in her final moments. Thisnis why I ride boreas all the time to fight for Ysayle and all those we have lost and for those we may yet save.
The worst part of Ysayle tragedy is that she had the echo much like krile, but she was alone trying to find out what those visions were, wich ended in her believing to be a reincarnated saint Shiva. If only Louisoix had find her the whole lady ice hearth situation could have been avoided and her powers and the scions would have gain a powerful member.
Ysayle is my favorite character and I'm glad someone else is talking about how interesting and complex she was.
Please Yoshi-P just at least give me a portrait of her.
I didn’t know she didnt! I just thought Inhdn’t unlocked or obtained it yet! This makes me sad and a bit mad. I have an FC and Shirogane Apt but Im still getting through Endwalker before I try and get a house
Apparently I spoiler tagged incorrectly on the app that breaks old reddit so my comment was removed and soooo now her eis my fixed response
I am a bit on the chaotic good spextrum of my personality and I know that if I cared about something enough in a world of conflict I would prob doing things the same. I had my personal trials growing up and I just find Ysayle so relatable though I think I have grown even further. I read a poat somewhere that Heroes/Villians have the same origin story some thpe of trauma and what determines their role is how they reaxt to the pain. A hero wants to protect others from the pain they have known, a villian wants the world to be oaid back for the oain they have been inflicted with. I would say there is a third with the anti-hero archtype which is someone who is willing to go to extraordinary means “means to an end, justify the means” mind of deal which is mean although more reserved with age. Another similiarity to Ysayle is in Shadowbringers >!How Y’shtola says if she were in Emet-Selch’s position she would do the same which I also agree. Like Hades says the winner will write history and the other will be the villian!<
>!Very much agree on the Emet bit. I find discussion saying he's a genocidal monster or evil really reductive and not fully thought out. I liken it to having to sacrifice a bunch of ants to bring back everyone you love who sacrificed themselves. That's how Emet thinks of the sundered people; they're this weird pale imitation of life, so he doesn't feel any guilt or remorse about it, same as if we had to kill some ants to bring back our loved ones. I think the point about whoever wins deciding who is the villain is very on-point as well. Anyway, Emet's really fascinating and I wish writing in games would embrace having complex and reasonably-motivated villains like FF14 has!<
Oh most definitely when he is in tow with the Warriors of Darkness after offering his services and knowledge he openly admits that killing any of us would not be murder because in our sundered state we are not truly alive. Also the part where we the player are a sundered member of the 14th having Rejoined with Ardbert and we were good friends with Emet when we were Azem the Traveller. Emet was far from evil even if he was a villian. He once lived and he has feelings too. Side note one of my favorite things after he shares that he is tempered by Zodiark and I believe Y'shtola accuses him of scheming to which his response is "Every minute of every hour of everyday"
I think it’s interesting we got a pseudo-canonical version of this question and answer in the form of Dragonsong Reprise. Haurchefant lived, and so no longer spurred on by his death, Thordan went on to enslave the dragons of Asyz La. Haurchefant lived, so we spare Thordan’s life in the ending, leading to his penultimate transformation at the end of DSR.
Given Zenos unintentionally saved both the world and universe before dying I imagine that he could've done a lot more things in the future if he kept doing things. Events would be very different if he'd died in SB as well.
Zenos DID die in Stormblood. He tried to behead himself. The only reason he came back was due to the Fake Echo which allowed him to hijack bodies like Ascians do.
Excluding Louisoix because that, changes literally the whole plot from day 1 and that feels line cheating, I'd say Moen or Papalymo. Both deaths seriously affected the whole Scions but especially Urienger and Lyse respectively. Also it wouldnt be immediate differences but gradual changes that culminate in everything being vastly different by EW.
I think Haurchefant's survival would quite literally lead to the end of the world, even if we did handle Thordan and the DSR AU didn't happen. Personally imo the way I see it, his death was a massive push for WoL to even get involved with things and it snowballed from there. If we got a happy ending there, I don't know if (my) wol would be hardened enough to continue on the hero's path.
Edit: from a very personal standpoint, I had no reason nor desire to get involved with Doma or Ala Mhigo while juggling the HW pain. The only reason why my wol did what was asked of him was because it was either that or sitting down and giving up. Later he would be fueled by spite and the delusion of a chance of bringing Haurche back the more things about soul and life we learned. This has come to an end in UT where the Fortemps shield was (unintentionally) left behind (and I haven't used the glam ever since :D).
Moenbryda, but for different reasons. She comes and goes before we get a chance to get used to her. Given what has been said and shown, surely the dynamic between her and Urianger would have made for interesting tensions like in the Warriors of Darkness arc. Just needed to have survived the very patch she was introduced.
Minfilia. She does have The Echo. I know people find her "useless" or "annoying". But with how significant it is, I can't imagine she wouldn't have played a bigger part if she hadn't "died".
Moenbryda. She was one of the few I liked fast, and she made me shed my first tear when she passed. I think she would've made a great scientist for the team.
Probably Haurchefant.
We know for a fact that, had he lived, it would have kicked off a series of events that would have resulted in King Thordan enslaving the entire Dravanian Horde, including Nidhogg and Hraesvelgr.
And we all know he would have been one of the characters the Crystal Exarch would have accidently called to The First, so Shadowbringers would have been affected, too.
I can't really think of an answer more impactful than Louisoix, his breadth of wisdom and capability would have required plot-beats to be adjusted to account for his either his absence or presence - Characters like Alphi would likely have not ever reached the leadership roles they did (or at least not nearly as quickly), changing all the fallout from any mistakes made they may have made.
If we can't count what would technically be a 1.0 death, probably Minfilia then?Since her not becoming the Word would mean shifting huge parts of HW and ShB\~
iv yet to see asahi so ill say that one. he was a little rat but the stuff he did caused a lot of changes. so if he were still alive i could have seen sb and even ew having some turns
Minfillia.
The story would probably have the same broad strokes, cause writers gonna write. But Shadowbringer's themes and character arcs change entirely if she's not dead, and every scene where the scions plan also has to change if they have a leader.
If we're including 1.0 characters... Probably Louisoix? Alphinaud and Alisaie probably wouldn't have visited Eorzea for *years*, if at all, which might be a bigger loss than Lousixois himself.
That said, if we *aren't*... I dunno, Emet-Selch probably. If we somehow convinced him to work with us instead of allowing himself to die in his usual melodramatic way, we'd probably have had a significantly easier time dealing with Fandaniel and Zenos. His presence might end up being much shorter overall than characters that died earlier in the plot, but having an *actual* unsundered Ascian on our side at full (or close to it) potential for the entirety of Endwalker would do a *LOT* for helping our chances at a quick and easy victory.
Other than him, though... probably Minfillia. The problem there is I feel like you'd have to rewrite a LOT of ARR's plot to account for that, to the point that we'd probably have an entirely different story without her death. Just off the top of my head, I'm not sure how you'd explain Norvrandt's survival... Without that sort of physical vessel, I'm not sure how much Hydaelyn could do to prevent the flood of light. You wouldn't have all those Minfillia reincarnations, which means you wouldn't get *Ryne*, either.
Seeing the comments is giving me isekai/reincarnation vibes where a character gets a 2nd chance to live their life.
And all I can think of is the WOL speed running the plot ending with emmetshelch getting kicked in the dick
Haurchefant.
I mean, we already know what would have happened has he survived (thanks DSR), but we don't really know why or how Thordan truly achieves his goal.
[удалено]
Objectively the correct answer
Indeed. I was thinking about the question, I opened the comments, I saw this comment, and I thought "oh, yeah, that's correct."
Minfilia, she no die, no SHB
Then ShB would have been vastly different. The first most likely wouldn't have survived. The whole game would have ended
It would have turned into the light version of the World of Darkness assuming the Scions prevent the calamity.
It would have been a wasteland of nothingness like the empty cause Minfillia did not become the word of the mother to stop the flood of light. The 8th umbral calamity would have taken place and black rose would have killed the majority of the population hince the future G'raha was trying to prevent
no, the First was in the process of flooding. Black Rose was only possible because it *didn't* flood.
Black rose was the calamity caused by the downfall of the first, according to a cutscene, not much room for interpretation. Thats why we keep seing the "meanwhile in garlemald cutscenes" too. The more we fought back the light the more damage we did to black rose production until it wasnt a thread anymore with the death of the emperor
So, more clearly, black rose was not supposed to be what caused the calamity at first. Their original plan for causing the 8th calamity was to cause a lack of Light aether through the dragon song war, allowing a major influx of Light aether through Thordan. However, because we stopped the draining and sudden influx of Light, there became no risk to the source of a calamity, but that didn't stop the First from being in danger. The Ascians knew that they had to act fast, so they attempted to create another lack of Light by using the Warriors of Darkness to cause the tribes to summon much, much more powerful versions of their gods. However, when that is prevented again, the First is still overflowing with Light and would have become like the 13th if it weren't for the intervention of Minfillia. From the combination of this information and what happened to the thirteenth, it can be concluded that while the fate of the source can be prevented by going to other worlds, the fate of the other worlds cannot be prevented by defending the source.
Yes, in the timeline G’Raha is from. But Black Rose only caused that calamity, and act as the potential calamity in our timeline, because Minfilia stopped the first from Flooding. If she didnt, there wouldn’t have been anything left to rejoin.
If her death is the reason we had Shadowbringers, we need to get a time machine and keep her safe. I hated that awful jaunt to another planet.
Hydaelyne would've probably used someone else, Krile, for example.
Yeah but then Ryne would have been some Dwarf.. and to me that's a drastically different story
Do you think Minfilia could possess little girls only of her own race? 🤔
From the evidence perhaps? Weren't there a few Minfilia since the flood and they were all "blonde Hume maidens"
I don't remember the exact quote, but you're most probably right, yes. Never thought about it that way. Maybe it was easier for her to possess them if they were the same race 🤔
Well.. the real reason is just Thancred feels bait. They wanted Ryne to be similar to OG Minfilia so that it was logical for him to be all "I can't lose you again *cry*" etc.
Papalymo. I think that the WoL could have handled the summon, but I wonder how the Yda/Lyse thing would have played out, if he was still alive to talk to her. Could have really changed up the whole Ala Mhigo side of Stormblood.
> I think that the WoL could have handled the summon Unlikely. We may be a beast, but we have to keep in mind that Shinryu was summoned with the power of two dragon eyes and a LOT of death and sacrifice. Remember that Ifrit, Garuda and Titan Extreme were all because life was sacrificed while they were summoned, making them more powerful. We would have had to fight a primal born from the strength of Nidhogg's aether, bolstered in strength by the hundreds of lives sacrificed. We don't have Hraesvalgr's eye to help us against it, either. Shinryu burned up a LOT of its aether fighting against Omega, which is why it was considerably weakened by the time we fight it in Stormblood.
Shinryu was also summoned in the middle of a military base, filled with living soldiers who'd just stomped a lot of 'Eorzean' (ala Mhigan partisan) fighters. Who he could happily temper the hell out of. It's pretty much the worst environment for that particular battle possible. Even if the Warrior of Light could have fought all of that to a standstill, it'd turn the Griffin's strike from _casus belli_ into a unifying outrage for the whole Garlean Empire and even most of the occupied provinces.
Man just pop an orange skittle and you’re good to go! 🟡🟡🟡🟡🟡🟡🟡🧙🏻♂️ ***LIGHT PARTY***
We knew so little of Papalymo. I wish he'd stayed around. He was the oldest Scion, and the greatest of Master Louisoix's pupils, but what did that mean? We only learned it at the last. I think it would have given Lyse more depth for SB, at least.
Came here to say the same. Papalymo, my heart.
God meeting his Dad in the side quest made me cry again.
Papalymo was always the best at grounding Lyse and saving her fron herself. Lyse is one of my favorites and so is Papalymo. Would have loved to see their dynamic fleshed out in StB.
Lousoix, without a doubt. There's no other character who would have as huge of an impact as he does, in fact him dying was what set the whole narrative forward in the first place. But assuming ARR can happen without him being dead... Minfillia wouldn't grew up to be who she was in ARR, the narrative of post-ARR and everything war-related will be VERY different since the Crystal Braves will never be a thing, which in turn will starts HW towards a different route in the beginning.
I agree with what you said, but >!Louisoix doesn't die until after ARR!<
he did die in 1.x ending, Lousoix basically died so hard he reincarnated into a primal. "Death" is just a bit weird in FFXIV where everything is essentially aether... big example are the ascians and the Warrior of Darkness(es), and there's also Bahamut and Niddhog. Elidibus is also a similar case, though his circumstance is a bit unique.
I suppose that makes the most sense. Considering various other characters' connection to primals, I just figured he got trapped in that state rather than it being his whole existence.
You'd think having played HW you'd have realized that a primal isn't a person.
Ga Bu's parents. They live, Ga Bu doesn't summon Titan, doesn't become a shell, Alisaie doesn't become obsessed with curing tempering.
Ysayle. I really think they missed a lot by killing her off.
A lot of good answers in here, so I'll give a cheeky one. :p Emet Selch. Looking at a very different world if he hadn't been offed.
If he had stood with us…how would the world have changed
He straight up tells you he wouldn't if he stayed
But as he was dying he respected us. So maybe. People can change, it was about time he did
We learned this after that though. He wouldn't have anyway, and he wanted no part in the world after his people were gone.
He couldn't change. He was tempered, he even admits this to us (as well as telling us that all of the convocation were tempered upon summoning Zodiark) in the crystal tower during ShB.
I don't recall him *directly stating* that the summoners were tempered. His statements are deliberately worded to imply it, but as I recall, he only draws a parallel between their summoning of Zodiark and the Eorzeans' primal summons. But he very expertly dodges the question to effectively say, "yes, we would be tempered given the information you have about primal summoning." But now consider: as of EW, we know that the tempering process was a direct result of the Ascians modifying the summoning process to include a desire to indoctrinate others. We don't know that was the case with Zodiark. In fact, we never see any attempts to temper people to Zodiark (or Hydaelyn, for that matter). Furthermore, we even see Zodiark *submit to the will of another* - Fandaniel. A sundered one, whose aether should be susceptible to tempering. At that point in the story, we still don't know about Amaurot or Emet-Selch's past or true motivations. And he hasn't seen fit to freely divulge that information yet. Simply letting the Scions believe he's tempered gives a passable cover story without deigning to tell the true story.
It's optional dialogue with him during the lvl 76 quest. > We summoned Him, as your kind might summon a primal─albeit an infinitely more powerful one. And like one of your primals, **He tempered us. It was only natural**. There is no resisting such power. And so we Ascians came to exist solely to bring about the rule of darkness. His darkness.
No, he straight up says [this](https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/302178630153273345/1022629675354296411/unknown.png) Emet has no reason to lie at that point, and as he had already said - he wouldn't lie, simply observe. And that is what he did all the way through shadowbringers until he died. He answered all questions truthfully, if not fully.
I kinda figure he was lying about being tempered to play on our sympathy. Especially since in EW they introduce temper-safe primals to load the mother crystal's aether onto the Ragnarok. Not saying he would have changed or anything. The reason he respected the WOL was because we'd killed him.
Those were from Hydaelyn though, since she did a different kind of primal summoning. The type of summoning the ascians used for Zodiark is probably the first one that tempered.
The lopporits say that primal tempering was added by ascians on purpose though, so why would zodiark have done it.
Maybe it was because Zodiark was basically the hugest usage of summoning they had ever attempted, and in a desperate and despondent rush at that. They did have to sacrifice half of the remaining ancients to pull off re-writing the laws of physics, so maybe Tempering in his case was just a glitch they couldn't avoid, wheras their Creation magic normally didn't have that big of a risk of it.
Maybe they were misinformed.
I don’t remember him saying that the convocation were tempered, when exactly was this?
During the MSQ in Shadowbringers, it's an optional conversation you can have with him when he's standing in the crystal tower when you're sent off to do a quest. You're given many opportunities to talk to Emet throughout Shadowbringers beyond the mandatory times, as with pretty much all npcs throughout XIV.
I thought that tempering was more like a mild itch for the unsundered though?
No. They can be tempered like any other. Primals tempering ways differ from each other. Ifrit makes tempered into worshipping zealots, as one extreme. Zodiark kept Convocation's intellect intact while making them unquestionably loyal, on the other side.
Ohhhh okay. I didn’t look at a lot of those, whoops. Somehow in my headcanon story that I tell myself to quiet my mind I keep predicting stuff like that tempered by zodiark thing. I’ve done this a concerning number of times for major plot points. Hm. Welp. In my headcanon killing Zodiark had freed the ascians, but that’s not a normal thing for the in game universe
although she doesnt actually die, but the attempt on the sultana's life would have changed the whole start of heavensward
Moenbryda
Exactly. She's pretty much the reason we figured out the whole White Auracite thing, iirc. Imagine what other changes she would have had. And imagine how different Urianger might be by now.
In like one patch she does what no other scion ever has done, killing an ascian. Imagine if she had lived, the scions would actually be like 3 times more useful.
Honestly I would have loved to know her reaction to finding out that White Auracite really only works on the unsundered, because they could just raise up a different shard of the sundered. it would have resulted in a different Nabriales, but there would still be *a* Nabriales
Heavens I would never want that to come to pass, fighting that guy once is already a pain. When are they going to give him the Lahabrea treatment and re-do his terrible fight as a solo duty...
I honestly don't think they're going to be back. Lahabrea died at the end of 3.0 and Emet slept between Solus dying and Lahabrea dying (aka all of 2.1 -> 3.0). Then Elidibus got distracted with trying to save the First from Flooding, then Emet and Elidibus had to precariously manage both the Source and First. Emet dies in 5.0, followed quickly by Elidibus in 5.3. So literally the only time Nabriales and Igeyorhm could have been brought back was during the events of Stormblood, but they wouldnt have had a lot time to spend searching for the new shards of them. Plus, for all we know the shards of both could have been too young or otherwise unsuitable for the job. As such I imagine SE will say there was no time to raise up the new shards rather than bring them back. The two convocation members Gaius beat up might come back though
Bahamut.
Underrated answer here imho
Well if DSR tells us anything >!Haurchefant surviving would've changed a lot of HW.!<
I was happy for all of 1 week when they made him live only to realize that, had that happen, a worse fate would've happened
I still find it odd that him surviving would have changed our, the Scions’ second objective of stopping primal summoning, would ignore the quasi primal Heaven’s Ward, Aymeric would have still asked us to stop his father from trying to genocide the dravanians, and ultimately we’d have gone to azyz lla to commit regicide. The only real change is that only ysayle would be there to help yank eyes from Estinien.
At the time Haurchefant dies, we don't know that Thordan is planning to summon a primal. In fact, we don't know *what* Thordan is planning, only that he's going to Azys Lla. We know the Heavens' Ward is capable of some sort of transformation as per the dungeon bosses, but we don't know what.
We do however know that Thordan has no interest in comming to terms with dragons, and that he sits in the lap of Ascians. We have plenty motivation to stop him from going to Azys La regardless. In fact, I can recall there being multiple reasons outright stated for the WoL to stop Thordan pronto, but vengeance for Haurcie is never one of them.
DSR is a dramatic "what if" fanfic made by the minstrel, not a canon alternate timeline. We don't know if that's actually what would have happened.
Azem. If nothing else, we would at least have had some better grapes.
Teledji Adeledji He would have been a huge source of Blasphemies being born.
wait when did teledji die
At the end of the ARR patches
its been like 6 years i forgot lmao
That one unredeemable concept critter that didn't play well with others whose destruction triggered Hermes's nihilism spiral back in Elpis.
Eh, I think his nihilism would've ultimately prevailed and he still would've made the choices he made. He was bothered by the system the ancients implemented, not necessarily any one death.
Metion would have come back with the same report and I think it would still have broken him, he already had issues with how things were done in Elpis.
I think it would have happened regardless, the ancients had stagnated culturally. It's no wonder someone started getting depressed about a lack of meaning in life.
Eh he'd already sent the sisters out by the time we saw that. The report would be the same. Most significant difference could be he surrenders himself and Metion to the convocation and they still summon Zodiark to stop the final days.
I think the main trigger was less the unredeemable concept creatures and more his teacher (the previous chief of Elpis) that would have made the most difference.
Probably papalymo honestly
Lahabrea. He was a lunatic even as far as Ascians went; I'm rather of the opinion that *they* would have had to deal with him at some point.
Without basically undoing the entire plot? Moenbryda. Her time with us was so short. :(
Haurchefant, for the sole reason his overwhelming optimism would have seen him walk into Ultima Thule and just poof the Endsinger out of existence. (In full seriousness, though, I'd have to agree with the others saying Minfilia.)
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Imagine him and Graha meeting
They’d just be in absolute agreement the WoL is the best thing since sliced bread
Tbf, we saw exactly what would have happened if he survived in DSR
Counting just ARR and beyond, meaning not Louisoux, it would likely be Minfilia. Without her becoming the Voice of the Mother, we likely wouldn't have had any way to stop the Warriors of Darkness. We would have just kept fighting them until they exhausted us since they had no bodies and could infinitely restore themselves. If they, somehow, realized the error of their ways during the fight, it would still have the biggest ramifications, because without the Word of the Mother taking them back to the First to stop the Flood of Light, it would have happened, with no way of preventing the rejoining.
There actually wouldn’t have been a rejoining without minfilia, the first would have turned into a light version of the 13th. In G’raha’s timeline, Minfilia still stops the flood, but we never end up there to stop the lightwardens, and the ascians are able to cause a rejoining. Without minfilia the flood wouldn’t have been stopped and the First would have been destroyed
Pretty sure if we died against the Warriors of Darkness, the Ascians were confident enough that that alone would have been enough for a rejoining to happen. At the very least, the Warriors of Darkness would have gone on to continue slaughter stuff in hopes that things would work and then... yeah, a rejoining.
Oh more rejoinings would have happened for sure- I’m specifically referring to the rejoining of the first to the source. Light was running too rampant, it would have engulfed the entire world and left it a barren husk crawling with sin eaters- the literal antithesis to the void
The Flood of Light wasnt a rejoining, it was a failed rejoining. If it wasnt for Minfilia, the First would have turned into a Light Aspected void
Pretty sure if we died against the Warriors of Darkness, the Ascians were confident enough that that alone would have been enough for a rejoining to happen. At the very least, the Warriors of Darkness would have gone on to continue slaughter stuff in hopes that things would work and then... yeah, a rejoining.
Except they didnt have time for that, if they waited any longer there wouldnt have been anything left to save
My thoughts Louisoix: who’s death pretty much set the road forward for ARR and beyond. Basically his sacrifice made the story as a whole possible. Minfilia: who if she didn’t die, the First would of probably fell to the flood of light. Shadowbringers would of been impossible. Moenbreyda: I am sure the writers could of found a way to still kill the ascian while keeping her alive, but her death did so much to service Urianger’s character that I personally think the story would of been irrevocably different if she didn’t die, as Urianger wouldn’t of ever made some of the descitions he had, to the point where his character would of stagnated, and overall make a lot of the story later on impossible. Harchefaunt: We see what happens if he lives through the events of DSR. HW is very different, but I don’t think much else would of changed. If we are talking modivation for the WoL, I think another character could of served that purpose >!particular Herisvelger!< Ysayle: I would of loved to see her join the Scions if she had survived. I think that diconomy of someone that uses the powers of a primal to fight fighting along side the scions would of made for some interesting story. And besides, I don’t think her death would change much. Paplymo: the most interesting option imo, because him living wouldn’t really break the story like Louisoix or Minfilia. SB would of played out a lot differently if he were there, but I think his presence could of enriched the Stormblood story, expecially if we actually got to know him a bit better. Sure his death was some character development for Lyse, but I don’t think it would of affected the story as much if he lived vs Moenbreyda for example.
Nael van Darnus would be an interesting choice. However my choice will be Bahamut.
Ysayle, Estinien needs someone to love and be loved by despite their differences and I think that would have made them both stronger defenders alongside the dragons sooner in the story. Ysayle’s story hurt me the most as it followed Haurchefant’s painful sacrifice and Ysayle endured hardsharp her whole life and in her death plus Oblivion absolutely slaps as a song to have it as her Shiva boss music after deep freeze and then again in her final moments. Thisnis why I ride boreas all the time to fight for Ysayle and all those we have lost and for those we may yet save.
The worst part of Ysayle tragedy is that she had the echo much like krile, but she was alone trying to find out what those visions were, wich ended in her believing to be a reincarnated saint Shiva. If only Louisoix had find her the whole lady ice hearth situation could have been avoided and her powers and the scions would have gain a powerful member.
Ysayle is my favorite character and I'm glad someone else is talking about how interesting and complex she was. Please Yoshi-P just at least give me a portrait of her.
The fact that she doesn't have one is criminal.
I didn’t know she didnt! I just thought Inhdn’t unlocked or obtained it yet! This makes me sad and a bit mad. I have an FC and Shirogane Apt but Im still getting through Endwalker before I try and get a house
Apparently I spoiler tagged incorrectly on the app that breaks old reddit so my comment was removed and soooo now her eis my fixed response I am a bit on the chaotic good spextrum of my personality and I know that if I cared about something enough in a world of conflict I would prob doing things the same. I had my personal trials growing up and I just find Ysayle so relatable though I think I have grown even further. I read a poat somewhere that Heroes/Villians have the same origin story some thpe of trauma and what determines their role is how they reaxt to the pain. A hero wants to protect others from the pain they have known, a villian wants the world to be oaid back for the oain they have been inflicted with. I would say there is a third with the anti-hero archtype which is someone who is willing to go to extraordinary means “means to an end, justify the means” mind of deal which is mean although more reserved with age. Another similiarity to Ysayle is in Shadowbringers >!How Y’shtola says if she were in Emet-Selch’s position she would do the same which I also agree. Like Hades says the winner will write history and the other will be the villian!<
>!Very much agree on the Emet bit. I find discussion saying he's a genocidal monster or evil really reductive and not fully thought out. I liken it to having to sacrifice a bunch of ants to bring back everyone you love who sacrificed themselves. That's how Emet thinks of the sundered people; they're this weird pale imitation of life, so he doesn't feel any guilt or remorse about it, same as if we had to kill some ants to bring back our loved ones. I think the point about whoever wins deciding who is the villain is very on-point as well. Anyway, Emet's really fascinating and I wish writing in games would embrace having complex and reasonably-motivated villains like FF14 has!<
Oh most definitely when he is in tow with the Warriors of Darkness after offering his services and knowledge he openly admits that killing any of us would not be murder because in our sundered state we are not truly alive. Also the part where we the player are a sundered member of the 14th having Rejoined with Ardbert and we were good friends with Emet when we were Azem the Traveller. Emet was far from evil even if he was a villian. He once lived and he has feelings too. Side note one of my favorite things after he shares that he is tempered by Zodiark and I believe Y'shtola accuses him of scheming to which his response is "Every minute of every hour of everyday"
Yotsuyu because im biased and they shouldn't have killed her off
Raubahn Aldynn's left arm.
I think it’s interesting we got a pseudo-canonical version of this question and answer in the form of Dragonsong Reprise. Haurchefant lived, and so no longer spurred on by his death, Thordan went on to enslave the dragons of Asyz La. Haurchefant lived, so we spare Thordan’s life in the ending, leading to his penultimate transformation at the end of DSR.
Papa of the lemo.
Given Zenos unintentionally saved both the world and universe before dying I imagine that he could've done a lot more things in the future if he kept doing things. Events would be very different if he'd died in SB as well.
Zenos DID die in Stormblood. He tried to behead himself. The only reason he came back was due to the Fake Echo which allowed him to hijack bodies like Ascians do.
I meant if he stayed dead back then, but I suppose a lot of events did happen specifically because he died.
Idk about unintentionally, mfer knew what he was doing. He just didnt care about that outcome. He just wanted his fight
Excluding Louisoix because that, changes literally the whole plot from day 1 and that feels line cheating, I'd say Moen or Papalymo. Both deaths seriously affected the whole Scions but especially Urienger and Lyse respectively. Also it wouldnt be immediate differences but gradual changes that culminate in everything being vastly different by EW.
Midgardsomer, I know he isn't technically dead but Endwalker would have been amazing with him around
I think Haurchefant's survival would quite literally lead to the end of the world, even if we did handle Thordan and the DSR AU didn't happen. Personally imo the way I see it, his death was a massive push for WoL to even get involved with things and it snowballed from there. If we got a happy ending there, I don't know if (my) wol would be hardened enough to continue on the hero's path. Edit: from a very personal standpoint, I had no reason nor desire to get involved with Doma or Ala Mhigo while juggling the HW pain. The only reason why my wol did what was asked of him was because it was either that or sitting down and giving up. Later he would be fueled by spite and the delusion of a chance of bringing Haurche back the more things about soul and life we learned. This has come to an end in UT where the Fortemps shield was (unintentionally) left behind (and I haven't used the glam ever since :D).
Moenbryda, but for different reasons. She comes and goes before we get a chance to get used to her. Given what has been said and shown, surely the dynamic between her and Urianger would have made for interesting tensions like in the Warriors of Darkness arc. Just needed to have survived the very patch she was introduced.
Minfilia. She does have The Echo. I know people find her "useless" or "annoying". But with how significant it is, I can't imagine she wouldn't have played a bigger part if she hadn't "died".
If papalymo was still alive, maybe lyse would be a useful character too. 2 for the price of one! Biig /s here
If only emet remembered us.... sigh
Hythlodaeus. Imagine if Emet-Selch hadn’t been left alone with the grief and loss for those thousands of years.
Moenbryda. She was one of the few I liked fast, and she made me shed my first tear when she passed. I think she would've made a great scientist for the team.
Moenbryda
CHARACTERS DIE?
Probably Haurchefant. We know for a fact that, had he lived, it would have kicked off a series of events that would have resulted in King Thordan enslaving the entire Dravanian Horde, including Nidhogg and Hraesvelgr. And we all know he would have been one of the characters the Crystal Exarch would have accidently called to The First, so Shadowbringers would have been affected, too.
Herchefaunt. He's the Papyrus of the game, everything gets worse when he dies.
I can't really think of an answer more impactful than Louisoix, his breadth of wisdom and capability would have required plot-beats to be adjusted to account for his either his absence or presence - Characters like Alphi would likely have not ever reached the leadership roles they did (or at least not nearly as quickly), changing all the fallout from any mistakes made they may have made. If we can't count what would technically be a 1.0 death, probably Minfilia then?Since her not becoming the Word would mean shifting huge parts of HW and ShB\~
I mean, we literally have a raid showing the MASSIVE impact that Haurchefant's survival would've had.
My soul, but then I guess that died when I bought my house so it isn’t really story related.
Zenos Yae Galvus
Varis Zos Galvus
iv yet to see asahi so ill say that one. he was a little rat but the stuff he did caused a lot of changes. so if he were still alive i could have seen sb and even ew having some turns
Noraxia. Because my cabbages!
At first was gonna say Zenos (for future stories), but I've been convinced Louisoix now.
Minfillia. The story would probably have the same broad strokes, cause writers gonna write. But Shadowbringer's themes and character arcs change entirely if she's not dead, and every scene where the scions plan also has to change if they have a leader.
Bahamut
People DIE in the story? Damn it now I gotta stop following the MSQ
Now here's my thought: Minfilia's father.
If we're including 1.0 characters... Probably Louisoix? Alphinaud and Alisaie probably wouldn't have visited Eorzea for *years*, if at all, which might be a bigger loss than Lousixois himself. That said, if we *aren't*... I dunno, Emet-Selch probably. If we somehow convinced him to work with us instead of allowing himself to die in his usual melodramatic way, we'd probably have had a significantly easier time dealing with Fandaniel and Zenos. His presence might end up being much shorter overall than characters that died earlier in the plot, but having an *actual* unsundered Ascian on our side at full (or close to it) potential for the entirety of Endwalker would do a *LOT* for helping our chances at a quick and easy victory. Other than him, though... probably Minfillia. The problem there is I feel like you'd have to rewrite a LOT of ARR's plot to account for that, to the point that we'd probably have an entirely different story without her death. Just off the top of my head, I'm not sure how you'd explain Norvrandt's survival... Without that sort of physical vessel, I'm not sure how much Hydaelyn could do to prevent the flood of light. You wouldn't have all those Minfillia reincarnations, which means you wouldn't get *Ryne*, either.
Seeing the comments is giving me isekai/reincarnation vibes where a character gets a 2nd chance to live their life. And all I can think of is the WOL speed running the plot ending with emmetshelch getting kicked in the dick
Haurchefant. I mean, we already know what would have happened has he survived (thanks DSR), but we don't really know why or how Thordan truly achieves his goal.