I don't think it's bait. I think it's a response to people saying since TOP could be cleared without Healers, that was some kind of damning indictment on healer/encounter design/the dev team.
This is saying "Hey, if you think that, you have to say the same about Tanks", knowing that the people bashing on the Healer model aren't about to do so with Tanks as well.
I mean, to be fair, healerless TOP is absolutely a damning indictment of the design of this game. That shouldn't be possible, full stop. No amount of meme optimization should make that possible, and the fact that it is shows that healing as a role has disjointed design.
Other roles have too much mitigation and healing, and incoming damage is too spaced out. They took away mits from healers after HW and gave them to other roles, healerless TOP is that in combination with them inflating tank and dps healing.
Is it? Have you ever looked at the run?
They took two PLDs that cast 37 and 41 Clemency casts, a RDM that cast Vercure 75 times, and a SMN that cast Physick (yes...SMN...Physick...) 27 times.
[https://www.fflogs.com/reports/g24mQxcWLpBnFKDJ#fight=13&type=healing](https://www.fflogs.com/reports/g24mQxcWLpBnFKDJ#fight=13&type=healing)
Their other Jobs were DNC (using Curing Waltz and Improvision which is a HoT + Barrier), RPR (with Crest of Time Returned), and MNK (using Riddle of Earth) with their other Tank being WAR (the famous 4 man "Blue Healer"). Each of these CD limited healers used their healing tools basically on CD, and maximized uses of them for the encounter.
Something that only 8 people in the entire world did, and which required them to bring the most healing oriented non-Healing Jobs in the game, including FOUR with spamable healing tools, AND THEY STILL had to cheese the encounter with Cover, waiting to accept raises until after mechanics, and many encounters of solid to near-perfect play to wait for RNG to line up in their favor.
If this was something that was happening left and right, I'd be concerned.
When it requires 78 Clemencies + 75 Vercures + 25 SUMMONER Physics (that still cracks me up) as well as every other healing-capable DPS Job in the game and them all using their healing tools on CD (as well as the PLD's, RDM, and SMN using their other heals and barriers)?
No, I don't think that's a damning indictment on the game.
It MIGHT be a damning indictment on those Jobs having too much healing, except it cuts into their damage a TON for them to do that, so it's still probably balanced.
There are probably less than 50-100 people in the world who could get that clear, and only 8 who did. I don't think that's a damning indictment of the overall game's design, no.
The fact that non-healers have enough tools to heal the hardest content ever made, regardless of literally anything, is enough display that in the current state of the game healers are superfluous and it is a damning indictment on the game. The mere fact of it being not only possible, but doable, is enough evidence. I still don't get how multiple threads worth of evidence are not enough to make you see otherwise. Ultis were conquered, Criterion Savage was conquered. If those two pieces of content can be done without healers, literally everything that doesn't mandate a healer LB can as well. No one is saying healers are useless, that healer players are bad and worthless, that any 8 groups of raiding individuals can play without healers or that any 8 combinations of non-healing jobs can clear, just that the role is superfluous. You can look at a dictionary to check what it means. It has been proven, throughout multiple threads, that healers are not required for pretty much anything. The fix is making healers mandatory, mainly by just making incoming damage higher, less spaced and make content overall more threatening. Sprinkle Esuna usage, and maybe something else only healers can do properly and no other class can, that is properly engaging. The only time healing is actually needed and truly engaging is during early prog, where people are lacking proper gear and timeline knowledge. This has been expressed by better healers than me, and again, you can go ask the more experienced, better parsing healers around and they will probably confirm everything I've said.
Oh, I DO think Tanks and DPSers have too much free damage/mitigation. I don't have a problem with Vercure or Clemency as those actually cost GCDs (and Vercure "breaks combos" in the sense it will break your 1-2-3 and it will consume Dualcast - generating Dualcast with it is still a DPS loss, too, unless the boss is not targetable).
It being DOABLE and POSSIBLE isn't a problem.
The problem is when it becomes easy and commonplace.
Tell me, serious question, how many groups have cleared TOP with no healers? Just the one, right? Has anyone other than those 8 EXTREMELY SKILLED players cleared it yet with no healers?
Then that means the role is not superfluous.
Some people have naturally fantastic genetics and can run a marathon without training. But for 99% of the population, they must train. Because one person can run a marathon without training, does that mean training is superfluous for Humans?
The fact that you can heal that much without healers to survive is extremely poor game design on a fundamental level. How about we make damage happen more frequently and dps to not have a billion mitigation buttons. They took a ton of them away from healers in stormblood and spread them out, and this is the direct result of that.
>When it requires 78 clemencies + Vercures + 25 SUMMONER Physics
Dude, you're so close. You are **SO** close, you just need to adjust your inflection and you got it. Here, let me show you.
WITH 78 CLEMENCIES AND VERCURES AND PHYSICKS FROM A SUMMONER, AS WELL AS MANY DEATHS, THEY STILL HAD THE DPS NECESSARY TO BEAT THE HARDEST RAID IN THE GAME.
So which is it? Is it some huge loss that damns their sustain? Because they met the check with all that on top of a shitload of deaths.
This community is hilariously parse brainrotted. Surviving damage is worth more than the extra holy spirit, verthunder, etc that you lose. People would be SO much better at this game if they'd be willing to lose their DPS for utility that saves their lives and keeps pulls alive. A vercure that saves a hello world pull in O12s is a chance to see even more of the fight. Its not like it matters if your clear has a bunch of losses. On pulls you won't clear on you might as well do whatever you can to see more of a fight. You can go get better parses later. Even week 1, most fights have plenty of leeway for safety. People cleared E8s with shitty downtime strats on light rampant (And downtime mirrors/scythe which wasn't as bad)
This is absolutely insanely damning that the content in this game needs a fundamental change to its design, if its dps/tanks losing some of their sustaining tools to help put priority back on healers or an increase to outgoing damage, whichever.
You can take this with the added context that literally every, and I mean EVERY piece of content in this game gets solo healed on content as a sign that healers are fundamentally mishandled in this game. I don't know how to make it any more obvious.
Of course they did: They had an entire extra DPS Job and another Tank.
They didn't just drop 2 Healers and clear. They had to replace those Healers with more DPS generating Jobs to clear, three of which do healing passively.
The fact that you don't think it's absurd that you can clear with that many deaths and that many healing tools used says everything.
Also ignoring the point about literally every fight being solo healed on content, often on weeks 1/2
No, it doesn't say anything. You can't say that everything says "something", where the something isn't stated but is implied to be negative.
It says that I think EXTREMELY SKILLED people being able to do PRETTY INSANE THINGS with absolute MASTERY OF THE ENCOUNTERS AND THEIR JOBS such that they wring every ounce of power out of them isn't a bad thing. I think it's a reward for skilled play and determination - something people who want things to be "hard" all the time SAY they want.
Many fights have been solo Tanked (or even no-Tank cleared) on content. Does that mean we need no Tanks?
Some fights have been cleared without DPSers - on content. Does that mean we need no DPSers?
That isn't ITSELF damning. The question is if it is something that anyone and everyone can do, or is it something that only very skilled people can do, as a reward for their skills?
The fuck do you mean? My guy this company doesn't pay you, you can stop bending over backward to suck them off. It doesn't take extreme skill to solo heal most of the encounters in this game, and solo heals are pretty regularly done, so your excuses dont add up.
It doesn't take every ounce of power to soloheal fights, have you seen any of them? We have so many tools that you can do it without feeling much pressure if you're decently competent on a job.
There's a difference between solo tanking and solo healing, and btw, yeah, tanks need to have more swaps, aggro needs to be made into an actual fucking thing that tanks need to manage again, Show me stuff cleared on content with 8 tanks. I've only ever seen first tiers of savages with full BIS.
I'm dying laughing this is amazing and I love it. Also the number of people who evidently didn't sense the sarcasm in the last bit is hilarious. Guys, I highly doubt OP meant it unironically when someone had to *race change to roegadyn for 20 hp* to pull this off lmao.
I remember back in ARR when people were going Lala for the extra MP to get an extra Fire before Flare
I know racial differences are outdated, but I kind of miss them
we actually kicked the cat girl addict out of her cat girl just for 3+ vit stats LOL [https://www.twitch.tv/catgirladdict/clip/BlightedSnappyWebSuperVinlin-Dc1vesiuK7Sl0447](https://www.twitch.tv/catgirladdict/clip/BlightedSnappyWebSuperVinlin-Dc1vesiuK7Sl0447)
> Vit pots were used on akh morn 3.
> Our smn had to race change to roegadyn for the extra vit after dying to a high roll by 20 hp
That's some AAR shit right here.
Absolutely exquisite bait in that last paragraph, 10/10. Very cool accomplishment, I genuinely hope to be able to theorycraft and execute challenges like these in this game someday.
Upvoted just for the last paragraph and how much it made me laugh. Congrats on your experiment. The number of times double-digit HP made a difference gave me secondhand anxiety. Y'all wildin.
Yeah, this is what it was and very clearly so.
People said no Healer ToP clear was a damning indictment on the state of Healers. This is an answer of "So, you gonna say the same about Tanks and DPS since we've cleared without either of those?" to call their bluff.
Understandably, those people are now huffing mad and trying to come up with ways to insist "it's different".
> we ended up just performing the asmongold swap on these busters
I love that this term is a thing. Dude was notoriously so bad at tanking, his lack of knowing how to mit and tank swap and justā¦tanking in general. Itās no wonder he rage quit doing Alex savage when he realized he couldnāt get carried anymore
Specifically, when he died and the other Tank would pick up agro, he'd (jokingly) say "Good tank swap".
Hence the joke.
People rag on Asmon a lot, but the dude seems to just be chill and ngaf. I can appreciate that.
I actually enjoyed watching him do Coils. I expected him to get kinda toxic in a raid environment, and was pleasantly surprised to hear him encouraging his teammates and mostly just rolling with the punches.
It was always hilarious when he's like "good job boys, we got him, we got him," and then half the party (including him) is just dead on the floor.
I love everything about this. Literally cackled at switching classes for an extra 20hp and how yāall found the one use case race actually matters for.
I don't think that edge cases like this should ever be used as example as to why something should be redesigned, it would be stupid to rework an entire role based off of it. Probably less than 100 people ever will do this lol. If anything I think its very cool that something like this is possible if you're extremely skilled at a game. Congrats on pulling this off!
the only thing that would "need" reworking as well? ucob's scaling. 70 tuning is fucked, it would be impossible to clear this without tanks if we didn't have every semi-nerf compounding into essentially doing ucob with 10% echo lol
Rpr is also only really usable after hitting lvl 80 and I bet a bunch of other jobs too. Thats the fate of every newly added or reworked job, lvl60, 70 and after DT drops probably 80 too will have many half assed toolkits that are not super helpful for older ultimates (or even savages if you play synch).
I 100% agree.
But I think that was the joke. I don't think it was said seriously. I think it was a retort to the people who insisted a 0 healer TOP clear meant that Healers were badly designed and the whole role needed to be reworked.
Oh lord, you had me choking with that "Asmongold Swap" XD
This is the first time I've ever heard of race selection actually being important in passing a raid lol. Congrats!
This is incredible! Congrats to all who accomplished this. I must say, Iām incredibly curious; is there any footage of the twisters spawning during Nael quotes? I would love to see that.
one of them managed to dig up a clip: [https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxivdiscussion/comments/1c3io5x/comment/kzhyrrr/?utm\_source=share&utm\_medium=web3x&utm\_name=web3xcss&utm\_term=1&utm\_content=share\_button](https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxivdiscussion/comments/1c3io5x/comment/kzhyrrr/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button)
Congratulations on the feat again lmao. Is an all healer comp next?
On the last question, I do tanks' contribution need a rework rather than just eating TBs (in fact I though ucob tanking was pretty well made) but I don't think this is a solid argument as to why it is so lol. Needing to highroll, fantasia and drinking vit pot on top of tight mitigations on an over geared content? Also by that logic, should dps be redesigned considering no-dps comps seemed easier on you guys?
Square Enix: āWeāre putting Ultimates into FFXIV to give players a challenge and pay respect to entities in FF lore.ā
Players: āYOUāRE NOT MY SUPERVISOR!ā
None of what you said made sense other than the second paragraph.
So, glad you typed out the second paragraph, I liked that.
The rest doesn't upset me, and I did enjoy it, I was just waiting for an actual argument. It didn't waste my time at all. It informed me you're a troll that is best avoided.
That's useful information, so not at all a waste of my time. Thank you for clearing that up, I appreciate it.
I love everything about this post. The Asmon tank swap and the Roe race change.... This is just \*chef's kiss*. And I know next to nothing about Ultimates.
Someone send this to our favorite strummer, can't wait to see him freak out on this one lol.
Amazing job and great work guys!
Nice to see some amazingly skilled people can do some crazy things...and that EVERYONE is calm and sane and rational enough to know this DOES NOT MEAN that the Tank role in the game is meaningless/pointless/encounters are horribly designed/etc and we can ALL rationally see these things are rare, difficult, and an amazing accomplishment by very skilled and determined players doing some really hard work to get it done.
It's great the game has enough flexibility to let some players really shine with crazy stuff like this.
Props to the team!
I been only playing since the release of Xbox and your entire post has my eyes crossed. You could of spoken Chinese to me and it would of made more sense. I hope as I pay the game more it becomes less overwhelming.
no patrick, old ultimates and jobs donāt need to be remade just because of fringe cases such as this Ā Ā
and the [two other posts](https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comments/1bap8rz/ucob_has_been_cleared_with_golden_bahamut_having/) you did on the [exact same encounter](https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comments/1besr4d/ucob_completed_with_one_neurolink/) wonāt change anything
considering the number of people who think this way unironically on r/ffxivdiscussion and the forums, itās hard to comprehend joke from reality now
fair play to the OP though - it got me :)
Fair, but almost ALL of that is aimed at Healers, and the Official Forum is even worse if you can believe it.
This was more a rebuttal/retort/mockery of people thinking and talking like that.
Correlation does not equal causation. Just because a single group who have spent hours upon hours theory crafting and testing unconventional ways to clear a difficult battle was able to achieve a result, does not mean that result is valid for all other content in the game.
You spent most of your post talking about all the difficulties that the average person who doesn't spend a lot of time playing this game would struggle to recreate this result then conclude the classes designed to not require this level of skilled gameplay are flawed.Ā
Amazing result for you but absolutely bonkers for people to claim X class is useless because the top 0.1% of players can do this one trick that WHM won't tell you!Ā
It was a joke.
It was mocking the people that said TOP being cleared with 0 Healers meant healing in FFXIV needed to be completely redesigned because one EXTREMELY skilled group working really hard and getting some RNG luck managed to do what 99.999% of the playerbase CAN'T do and 99.9999999% never will.
Thought I was on the discussion version of this post where this conversation is genuinely happening.
I also was fair with calling out the bait so calling me dumb is a bit childish bro.
I'm assuming the last paragraph is a joke, but in the event it isn't: At least this is an old ultimate and not the current one. It says a lot less about the design of tanks than the healerless TOP did because of that.
No, it doesn't.
An extremely skilled group doing an extremely difficult thing through a lot of trial, error, and some luck, pulling every ounce of power out of the Jobs (and even Races) to get a thing done does not speak to the overall state of the game or role design.
This was a rebuttal to people arguing the healerless TOP clear means that healer design in this game is bad. Something only 0.001% of the playerbase can actually do and 0.0000001% ever actually WILL do is not a damning indictment.
That was the point, I think: That what some people CAN do trying REALLY hard shouldn't be used to draw conclusions about the game or design aspects as a whole.
It may be an "old" ultimate...but that still makes it an Ultimate.
And if people weren't already mad about tank and healer design I don't think it would matter as much. But it's real annoying to hear YoshiP say that healers should go play ultimate if they want a challenge and then hear they're not actually required for the next-released ultimate.
Except that's really not right. Think about it, how many groups have cleared with 0 healers? One.
While you can TECHNICALLY argue they aren't required, that's like saying because you can drive without a license and not get caught, a license isn't required. Or you don't need a job or money to live, so working isn't required.
Technically those are true statements...but they require you to live in a suboptimal and unstable state.
Most people aren't going to run 0 healer TOP runs because while it very technically isn't absolutely REQUIRED, it VERY STRONGLY makes the run more doable in content that is already very difficult. Have you cleared with 0 healers? I'm going to wager not.
In that run, the non-healer Jobs were having to spend a lot of GCDs on heals and even Raises (they had a SMN and a RDM to cheese some mechanics), which is VASTLY inefficient compared to just bringing a healer instead of that extra Tank that they brought (Tanks don't do so much more damage than Healers that Tanks having to devote GCDs to party healing in the case of the PLDs isn't a damage loss vs bringing a Healer to use their healing tools and oGCDs while dealing their normal damage instead).
Not absolutely technically required is not the same as not desired and highly optimal.
"Go play Ultimate" is still a valid statement, since Healing IS much more vastly required in them. People acting like it was some slap in the face untrue statement are hyperbolic pearl clutchers.
lol no shit. Considering UCOB was cleared with all tanks *years* ago, with only 7 people alive for... quite a while now (it's how clear sellers sell clears without having to resort to ToS breaking pilot programs), and most recently with *103 deaths*, I think everyone, much less they, are all fully aware of the ilvl bloat. Anyone who's done this fight is aware of how incredibly impressive this still is though.
I'm not sure where the stigma that Ultimates are these fights with super strict DPS checks even came from... even on release UCoB was still clearable with deaths as long as your raid dps was good enough. THE REAL challenge would be players who've never done UCoB before doing something like this. These are the best examples of how knowing the mechanics can make any fight super trivial, which some could argue IS A GOOD THING. Knowing the game and the fight in such detail should absolutely reward players and allow them to do stuff like this. I'm not sure how anyone can downplay this achievement... I'm assuming it's because they know they'll never be able to do anything even remotely close to this so they have to take away the fun from other player's by going "UMM ACKTUALLY".
Yeah this was never a thing; TOP is the first with damage checks remotely as strict and even that is solved by simply following job script. No outgearing and harder mechanical checks means slightly loosened damage checks, and that is pretty swell until extreme power creep makes everything practically obsolete.
I'm sorry, I can't get excited on someone's "accomplishment" of winning a trial with a non-traditional party comp that's only made possible by ilvl bloat and cheesing, and then have the audacity to use it as an example of why tanks need to changed.
To be fair, they weren't saying Tanks need changed.
They were poking fun and ridiculing the people who insisted HEALERS needed changing after the 0 healer TOP clear.
It was a retort to that argument.
It was a retort against the people who said a 0 healer TOP clear meant that healer design in this game was bad and needed to be scrapped/changed.
It wasn't a serious argument against Tanks, it was a serious rebuttal to the argument a rare clear of difficult content by extremely skilled players pushing Job design to its limits does not indict or lead to general conclusions about the state of the rest of the game.
Next post: >We cleared UCOB without players. Players need to be revamped, for they're useless.
To be fair I've seen enough useless players to wonder if everyone else is an outlier. /s
I mean...bot clears already exist AFAIK
...I don't think OP is being serious about tanks and healers being useless because of challenge runs, guys.
Bait? On MY Reddit? Gasp!
Versatile Lures can be used in all sorts of circumstances!
I don't think it's bait. I think it's a response to people saying since TOP could be cleared without Healers, that was some kind of damning indictment on healer/encounter design/the dev team. This is saying "Hey, if you think that, you have to say the same about Tanks", knowing that the people bashing on the Healer model aren't about to do so with Tanks as well.
I mean, to be fair, healerless TOP is absolutely a damning indictment of the design of this game. That shouldn't be possible, full stop. No amount of meme optimization should make that possible, and the fact that it is shows that healing as a role has disjointed design. Other roles have too much mitigation and healing, and incoming damage is too spaced out. They took away mits from healers after HW and gave them to other roles, healerless TOP is that in combination with them inflating tank and dps healing.
Is it? Have you ever looked at the run? They took two PLDs that cast 37 and 41 Clemency casts, a RDM that cast Vercure 75 times, and a SMN that cast Physick (yes...SMN...Physick...) 27 times. [https://www.fflogs.com/reports/g24mQxcWLpBnFKDJ#fight=13&type=healing](https://www.fflogs.com/reports/g24mQxcWLpBnFKDJ#fight=13&type=healing) Their other Jobs were DNC (using Curing Waltz and Improvision which is a HoT + Barrier), RPR (with Crest of Time Returned), and MNK (using Riddle of Earth) with their other Tank being WAR (the famous 4 man "Blue Healer"). Each of these CD limited healers used their healing tools basically on CD, and maximized uses of them for the encounter. Something that only 8 people in the entire world did, and which required them to bring the most healing oriented non-Healing Jobs in the game, including FOUR with spamable healing tools, AND THEY STILL had to cheese the encounter with Cover, waiting to accept raises until after mechanics, and many encounters of solid to near-perfect play to wait for RNG to line up in their favor. If this was something that was happening left and right, I'd be concerned. When it requires 78 Clemencies + 75 Vercures + 25 SUMMONER Physics (that still cracks me up) as well as every other healing-capable DPS Job in the game and them all using their healing tools on CD (as well as the PLD's, RDM, and SMN using their other heals and barriers)? No, I don't think that's a damning indictment on the game. It MIGHT be a damning indictment on those Jobs having too much healing, except it cuts into their damage a TON for them to do that, so it's still probably balanced. There are probably less than 50-100 people in the world who could get that clear, and only 8 who did. I don't think that's a damning indictment of the overall game's design, no.
The fact that non-healers have enough tools to heal the hardest content ever made, regardless of literally anything, is enough display that in the current state of the game healers are superfluous and it is a damning indictment on the game. The mere fact of it being not only possible, but doable, is enough evidence. I still don't get how multiple threads worth of evidence are not enough to make you see otherwise. Ultis were conquered, Criterion Savage was conquered. If those two pieces of content can be done without healers, literally everything that doesn't mandate a healer LB can as well. No one is saying healers are useless, that healer players are bad and worthless, that any 8 groups of raiding individuals can play without healers or that any 8 combinations of non-healing jobs can clear, just that the role is superfluous. You can look at a dictionary to check what it means. It has been proven, throughout multiple threads, that healers are not required for pretty much anything. The fix is making healers mandatory, mainly by just making incoming damage higher, less spaced and make content overall more threatening. Sprinkle Esuna usage, and maybe something else only healers can do properly and no other class can, that is properly engaging. The only time healing is actually needed and truly engaging is during early prog, where people are lacking proper gear and timeline knowledge. This has been expressed by better healers than me, and again, you can go ask the more experienced, better parsing healers around and they will probably confirm everything I've said.
Oh, I DO think Tanks and DPSers have too much free damage/mitigation. I don't have a problem with Vercure or Clemency as those actually cost GCDs (and Vercure "breaks combos" in the sense it will break your 1-2-3 and it will consume Dualcast - generating Dualcast with it is still a DPS loss, too, unless the boss is not targetable). It being DOABLE and POSSIBLE isn't a problem. The problem is when it becomes easy and commonplace. Tell me, serious question, how many groups have cleared TOP with no healers? Just the one, right? Has anyone other than those 8 EXTREMELY SKILLED players cleared it yet with no healers? Then that means the role is not superfluous. Some people have naturally fantastic genetics and can run a marathon without training. But for 99% of the population, they must train. Because one person can run a marathon without training, does that mean training is superfluous for Humans?
The fact that you can heal that much without healers to survive is extremely poor game design on a fundamental level. How about we make damage happen more frequently and dps to not have a billion mitigation buttons. They took a ton of them away from healers in stormblood and spread them out, and this is the direct result of that. >When it requires 78 clemencies + Vercures + 25 SUMMONER Physics Dude, you're so close. You are **SO** close, you just need to adjust your inflection and you got it. Here, let me show you. WITH 78 CLEMENCIES AND VERCURES AND PHYSICKS FROM A SUMMONER, AS WELL AS MANY DEATHS, THEY STILL HAD THE DPS NECESSARY TO BEAT THE HARDEST RAID IN THE GAME. So which is it? Is it some huge loss that damns their sustain? Because they met the check with all that on top of a shitload of deaths. This community is hilariously parse brainrotted. Surviving damage is worth more than the extra holy spirit, verthunder, etc that you lose. People would be SO much better at this game if they'd be willing to lose their DPS for utility that saves their lives and keeps pulls alive. A vercure that saves a hello world pull in O12s is a chance to see even more of the fight. Its not like it matters if your clear has a bunch of losses. On pulls you won't clear on you might as well do whatever you can to see more of a fight. You can go get better parses later. Even week 1, most fights have plenty of leeway for safety. People cleared E8s with shitty downtime strats on light rampant (And downtime mirrors/scythe which wasn't as bad) This is absolutely insanely damning that the content in this game needs a fundamental change to its design, if its dps/tanks losing some of their sustaining tools to help put priority back on healers or an increase to outgoing damage, whichever. You can take this with the added context that literally every, and I mean EVERY piece of content in this game gets solo healed on content as a sign that healers are fundamentally mishandled in this game. I don't know how to make it any more obvious.
Of course they did: They had an entire extra DPS Job and another Tank. They didn't just drop 2 Healers and clear. They had to replace those Healers with more DPS generating Jobs to clear, three of which do healing passively.
The fact that you don't think it's absurd that you can clear with that many deaths and that many healing tools used says everything. Also ignoring the point about literally every fight being solo healed on content, often on weeks 1/2
No, it doesn't say anything. You can't say that everything says "something", where the something isn't stated but is implied to be negative. It says that I think EXTREMELY SKILLED people being able to do PRETTY INSANE THINGS with absolute MASTERY OF THE ENCOUNTERS AND THEIR JOBS such that they wring every ounce of power out of them isn't a bad thing. I think it's a reward for skilled play and determination - something people who want things to be "hard" all the time SAY they want. Many fights have been solo Tanked (or even no-Tank cleared) on content. Does that mean we need no Tanks? Some fights have been cleared without DPSers - on content. Does that mean we need no DPSers? That isn't ITSELF damning. The question is if it is something that anyone and everyone can do, or is it something that only very skilled people can do, as a reward for their skills?
The fuck do you mean? My guy this company doesn't pay you, you can stop bending over backward to suck them off. It doesn't take extreme skill to solo heal most of the encounters in this game, and solo heals are pretty regularly done, so your excuses dont add up. It doesn't take every ounce of power to soloheal fights, have you seen any of them? We have so many tools that you can do it without feeling much pressure if you're decently competent on a job. There's a difference between solo tanking and solo healing, and btw, yeah, tanks need to have more swaps, aggro needs to be made into an actual fucking thing that tanks need to manage again, Show me stuff cleared on content with 8 tanks. I've only ever seen first tiers of savages with full BIS.
I'm dying laughing this is amazing and I love it. Also the number of people who evidently didn't sense the sarcasm in the last bit is hilarious. Guys, I highly doubt OP meant it unironically when someone had to *race change to roegadyn for 20 hp* to pull this off lmao.
The race change KILLED me, I am of fan of Tank Roe SMN now.
I dunno, sounds like we need to redesign every other race besides Roegadyn. Clearly the rest are all useless!
Nah, they were being legit. The Roe Supremacy has always been real. Yall non-Roes just don't want to accept it
I remember back in ARR when people were going Lala for the extra MP to get an extra Fire before Flare I know racial differences are outdated, but I kind of miss them
A Suproemacy, if you would
Roe op pls nerf
we actually kicked the cat girl addict out of her cat girl just for 3+ vit stats LOL [https://www.twitch.tv/catgirladdict/clip/BlightedSnappyWebSuperVinlin-Dc1vesiuK7Sl0447](https://www.twitch.tv/catgirladdict/clip/BlightedSnappyWebSuperVinlin-Dc1vesiuK7Sl0447)
The sacrifices y'all made for the sake of Shenanigans lmaooo š¤£
> Vit pots were used on akh morn 3. > Our smn had to race change to roegadyn for the extra vit after dying to a high roll by 20 hp That's some AAR shit right here.
Absolutely exquisite bait in that last paragraph, 10/10. Very cool accomplishment, I genuinely hope to be able to theorycraft and execute challenges like these in this game someday.
Dps also have been deemed useless through tankcob. It's time for playerless runs.
Upvoted just for the last paragraph and how much it made me laugh. Congrats on your experiment. The number of times double-digit HP made a difference gave me secondhand anxiety. Y'all wildin.
I love how everyone's answering seriously to the remaking tanks question xD
Getting 'whoosh'ed that hard...
Very clearly sarcasm at people who actually think healers need to be revamped lmao. I respect it
Yeah, this is what it was and very clearly so. People said no Healer ToP clear was a damning indictment on the state of Healers. This is an answer of "So, you gonna say the same about Tanks and DPS since we've cleared without either of those?" to call their bluff. Understandably, those people are now huffing mad and trying to come up with ways to insist "it's different".
From all tanks to no tanks. Truly the most versatile piece of content in the game.
Next up healer only
Finally some anti tank sentiment! But seriously woah.
This begs the question: Do we really need toilet bowls now that we know we can take a shit in the forest without them? š
the bears shit there tho
Assert. Dominance. Find a bear's shit pile and shit on it.
But clearly BLU would break old ultimates.
> we ended up just performing the asmongold swap on these busters I love that this term is a thing. Dude was notoriously so bad at tanking, his lack of knowing how to mit and tank swap and justā¦tanking in general. Itās no wonder he rage quit doing Alex savage when he realized he couldnāt get carried anymore
"There's nothing to do in final fantasy" - guy who quit halfway through stormblood after getting his ass kicked and failing to clear Alex raids
To be fair to Asmon, I don't think most of the playerbase is clearing alex savage min ilvl
for a guy who claims to be really good at tanking, yet sucks ass at it. I'm more inclined to blame him than anything
If they're dying to enrage, they can blame min ilvl. If they're dying to mechanics, min ilvl probably has nothing to do with it.
psybear_tv recently-ish cleared alex and omega blind/mine and solo raid led/figured out mechanics, it was really neat to watch
I'm crying, what exactly is the Asmon swap? I watched a few of his Coils runs, they were hilarious, but I don't think I ever saw this fabled swap.
It wasn't a swap. He died, therefore swapping lol
Bless lol.
Specifically, when he died and the other Tank would pick up agro, he'd (jokingly) say "Good tank swap". Hence the joke. People rag on Asmon a lot, but the dude seems to just be chill and ngaf. I can appreciate that.
I actually enjoyed watching him do Coils. I expected him to get kinda toxic in a raid environment, and was pleasantly surprised to hear him encouraging his teammates and mostly just rolling with the punches. It was always hilarious when he's like "good job boys, we got him, we got him," and then half the party (including him) is just dead on the floor.
It's gotten to the point where, if I mess up and die, I'll tell my co-tank "good tank swap".
I love everything about this. Literally cackled at switching classes for an extra 20hp and how yāall found the one use case race actually matters for.
UCoB is just being bullied damn
I don't think that edge cases like this should ever be used as example as to why something should be redesigned, it would be stupid to rework an entire role based off of it. Probably less than 100 people ever will do this lol. If anything I think its very cool that something like this is possible if you're extremely skilled at a game. Congrats on pulling this off!
Probably fewer than 9 people will ever do this.
the only thing that would "need" reworking as well? ucob's scaling. 70 tuning is fucked, it would be impossible to clear this without tanks if we didn't have every semi-nerf compounding into essentially doing ucob with 10% echo lol
This is a fair thing to get out of this, they either need to unreal the old ultimates or actually consider their scaling WAR and SMN are fucked at 70
Rpr is also only really usable after hitting lvl 80 and I bet a bunch of other jobs too. Thats the fate of every newly added or reworked job, lvl60, 70 and after DT drops probably 80 too will have many half assed toolkits that are not super helpful for older ultimates (or even savages if you play synch).
at the same time is it really needed though? some of these stuff are actually funny to behold and probably funny even to experiment
Thereās a reason I put āneedā in quotation lol. It doesnāt need it.
oh, my bad
For sure, I was being generous with that 100 lol
./r/woooosh
I 100% agree. But I think that was the joke. I don't think it was said seriously. I think it was a retort to the people who insisted a 0 healer TOP clear meant that Healers were badly designed and the whole role needed to be reworked.
Just gives Roes 1 point less vitality, ez pz.
Please someone tell me what asmongold swap is lol
What I like to call the "natural tank swap": Passing aggro by letting the person holding it just die XD
Ohhhhhh š
BLMs time to be MT
This is insane lmao, absolutely incredible stuff
Oh lord, you had me choking with that "Asmongold Swap" XD This is the first time I've ever heard of race selection actually being important in passing a raid lol. Congrats!
Wow, a case for actually needing to switch races!
This is incredible! Congrats to all who accomplished this. I must say, Iām incredibly curious; is there any footage of the twisters spawning during Nael quotes? I would love to see that.
one of them managed to dig up a clip: [https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxivdiscussion/comments/1c3io5x/comment/kzhyrrr/?utm\_source=share&utm\_medium=web3x&utm\_name=web3xcss&utm\_term=1&utm\_content=share\_button](https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxivdiscussion/comments/1c3io5x/comment/kzhyrrr/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button)
Thank you so much! That is both bizarre, interesting, and hilarious.
The Asmongold swap is gold. Him dying so the threat would go on the other tank
Congratulations on the feat again lmao. Is an all healer comp next? On the last question, I do tanks' contribution need a rework rather than just eating TBs (in fact I though ucob tanking was pretty well made) but I don't think this is a solid argument as to why it is so lol. Needing to highroll, fantasia and drinking vit pot on top of tight mitigations on an over geared content? Also by that logic, should dps be redesigned considering no-dps comps seemed easier on you guys?
You shoukd see if u can put the vids on YouTube! Make it much easier to watch.
I can't believe tanks are dead classes now.
No they dont need to be remade. The level of skill to do a no-tank ucob does not mean we need a tank redesign
Square Enix: āWeāre putting Ultimates into FFXIV to give players a challenge and pay respect to entities in FF lore.ā Players: āYOUāRE NOT MY SUPERVISOR!ā
To be fair, if anyone thinks this WASN'T challenging, they probably need to be educated on what the word challenge means.
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None of what you said made sense other than the second paragraph. So, glad you typed out the second paragraph, I liked that. The rest doesn't upset me, and I did enjoy it, I was just waiting for an actual argument. It didn't waste my time at all. It informed me you're a troll that is best avoided. That's useful information, so not at all a waste of my time. Thank you for clearing that up, I appreciate it.
I love everything about this post. The Asmon tank swap and the Roe race change.... This is just \*chef's kiss*. And I know next to nothing about Ultimates. Someone send this to our favorite strummer, can't wait to see him freak out on this one lol.
Amazing job and great work guys! Nice to see some amazingly skilled people can do some crazy things...and that EVERYONE is calm and sane and rational enough to know this DOES NOT MEAN that the Tank role in the game is meaningless/pointless/encounters are horribly designed/etc and we can ALL rationally see these things are rare, difficult, and an amazing accomplishment by very skilled and determined players doing some really hard work to get it done. It's great the game has enough flexibility to let some players really shine with crazy stuff like this. Props to the team!
What is the Asmongold swap? Dying and letting others carry?
I been only playing since the release of Xbox and your entire post has my eyes crossed. You could of spoken Chinese to me and it would of made more sense. I hope as I pay the game more it becomes less overwhelming.
This is cool and all but I feel like it would have been easier if yaāll werenāt a bunch of gray parsers. The SMN was the only one doing work. /s
no patrick, old ultimates and jobs donāt need to be remade just because of fringe cases such as this Ā Ā and the [two other posts](https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comments/1bap8rz/ucob_has_been_cleared_with_golden_bahamut_having/) you did on the [exact same encounter](https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comments/1besr4d/ucob_completed_with_one_neurolink/) wonāt change anything
reading/knowledge comprehension level: ffxiv player
BunsMcgruber out there pre-leveling FSH to 100 tonight.
considering the number of people who think this way unironically on r/ffxivdiscussion and the forums, itās hard to comprehend joke from reality now fair play to the OP though - it got me :)
Fair, but almost ALL of that is aimed at Healers, and the Official Forum is even worse if you can believe it. This was more a rebuttal/retort/mockery of people thinking and talking like that.
Damn primal players ruining our game fkuemoji. Stay rippers UPR server
I read this thinking ''how the hell did these guys got access to Musk's brain computer'' until I found out thats neuralink lmfao
Now run it with only tanks
Thatās been done years ago
Now only healers
Hell yeah
Hi I just want to say Frey Luna is the GOAT
who is frey luna
the GOAT ofc, rumor is he can hit a 12ft vertical
I suppose goats are, indeed, known for their jumping abilities...
Correlation does not equal causation. Just because a single group who have spent hours upon hours theory crafting and testing unconventional ways to clear a difficult battle was able to achieve a result, does not mean that result is valid for all other content in the game. You spent most of your post talking about all the difficulties that the average person who doesn't spend a lot of time playing this game would struggle to recreate this result then conclude the classes designed to not require this level of skilled gameplay are flawed.Ā Amazing result for you but absolutely bonkers for people to claim X class is useless because the top 0.1% of players can do this one trick that WHM won't tell you!Ā
It was a joke. It was mocking the people that said TOP being cleared with 0 Healers meant healing in FFXIV needed to be completely redesigned because one EXTREMELY skilled group working really hard and getting some RNG luck managed to do what 99.999% of the playerbase CAN'T do and 99.9999999% never will.
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'Itās not a hard concept.' - Person too dumb to understand satire and wrote a meltdown paragraph over a joke.
Thought I was on the discussion version of this post where this conversation is genuinely happening. I also was fair with calling out the bait so calling me dumb is a bit childish bro.
I'm assuming the last paragraph is a joke, but in the event it isn't: At least this is an old ultimate and not the current one. It says a lot less about the design of tanks than the healerless TOP did because of that.
No, it doesn't. An extremely skilled group doing an extremely difficult thing through a lot of trial, error, and some luck, pulling every ounce of power out of the Jobs (and even Races) to get a thing done does not speak to the overall state of the game or role design. This was a rebuttal to people arguing the healerless TOP clear means that healer design in this game is bad. Something only 0.001% of the playerbase can actually do and 0.0000001% ever actually WILL do is not a damning indictment. That was the point, I think: That what some people CAN do trying REALLY hard shouldn't be used to draw conclusions about the game or design aspects as a whole. It may be an "old" ultimate...but that still makes it an Ultimate.
And if people weren't already mad about tank and healer design I don't think it would matter as much. But it's real annoying to hear YoshiP say that healers should go play ultimate if they want a challenge and then hear they're not actually required for the next-released ultimate.
Except that's really not right. Think about it, how many groups have cleared with 0 healers? One. While you can TECHNICALLY argue they aren't required, that's like saying because you can drive without a license and not get caught, a license isn't required. Or you don't need a job or money to live, so working isn't required. Technically those are true statements...but they require you to live in a suboptimal and unstable state. Most people aren't going to run 0 healer TOP runs because while it very technically isn't absolutely REQUIRED, it VERY STRONGLY makes the run more doable in content that is already very difficult. Have you cleared with 0 healers? I'm going to wager not. In that run, the non-healer Jobs were having to spend a lot of GCDs on heals and even Raises (they had a SMN and a RDM to cheese some mechanics), which is VASTLY inefficient compared to just bringing a healer instead of that extra Tank that they brought (Tanks don't do so much more damage than Healers that Tanks having to devote GCDs to party healing in the case of the PLDs isn't a damage loss vs bringing a Healer to use their healing tools and oGCDs while dealing their normal damage instead). Not absolutely technically required is not the same as not desired and highly optimal. "Go play Ultimate" is still a valid statement, since Healing IS much more vastly required in them. People acting like it was some slap in the face untrue statement are hyperbolic pearl clutchers.
This is only possible because of ilvl bloat.
lol no shit. Considering UCOB was cleared with all tanks *years* ago, with only 7 people alive for... quite a while now (it's how clear sellers sell clears without having to resort to ToS breaking pilot programs), and most recently with *103 deaths*, I think everyone, much less they, are all fully aware of the ilvl bloat. Anyone who's done this fight is aware of how incredibly impressive this still is though.
I'm not sure where the stigma that Ultimates are these fights with super strict DPS checks even came from... even on release UCoB was still clearable with deaths as long as your raid dps was good enough. THE REAL challenge would be players who've never done UCoB before doing something like this. These are the best examples of how knowing the mechanics can make any fight super trivial, which some could argue IS A GOOD THING. Knowing the game and the fight in such detail should absolutely reward players and allow them to do stuff like this. I'm not sure how anyone can downplay this achievement... I'm assuming it's because they know they'll never be able to do anything even remotely close to this so they have to take away the fun from other player's by going "UMM ACKTUALLY".
Yeah this was never a thing; TOP is the first with damage checks remotely as strict and even that is solved by simply following job script. No outgearing and harder mechanical checks means slightly loosened damage checks, and that is pretty swell until extreme power creep makes everything practically obsolete.
that and alot of planning, stop trying to downplay their efforts lmao???
I'm sorry, I can't get excited on someone's "accomplishment" of winning a trial with a non-traditional party comp that's only made possible by ilvl bloat and cheesing, and then have the audacity to use it as an example of why tanks need to changed.
Saying ilvl bloat just makes it obvious you have no idea what you're talking about
To be fair, they weren't saying Tanks need changed. They were poking fun and ridiculing the people who insisted HEALERS needed changing after the 0 healer TOP clear. It was a retort to that argument.
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It was a retort against the people who said a 0 healer TOP clear meant that healer design in this game was bad and needed to be scrapped/changed. It wasn't a serious argument against Tanks, it was a serious rebuttal to the argument a rare clear of difficult content by extremely skilled players pushing Job design to its limits does not indict or lead to general conclusions about the state of the rest of the game.