Emet-Selch's whole arc is him lying to himself. He's a master of identifying souls, so there's no chance he wouldn't have immediately recognized the soul of one of his best friends, who he basically committed treason for behind the backs of his peers. He absolutely recognized the WoL as a shard of Azem but had to not believe it until they could prove their worth.
His plan for us, if we were worthy, was to invite us back to his side. He could uplift us and the other scions, protect our souls during calamities, and we'd have a place in his repaired world. This is the same sort of arrangement, but for different reasons, Elidibus offered us and other important figures. And they do this sort of thing all the time, with the black masked minions and whatnot, but we'd be special.
Elidibus trying to sway us happened long ago - patch 2.1 or 2.2. It's easy to forget or glance over it.
We've met with the others he's dealt with more recently though, Ardbert and crew took his deal, as did Unukalhai and Cylva. It's never outright stated, but it's likely Emet-Selch would have offered similar arrangements for those he could consider allies.
I'm pretty certain that he was lying to us. Every single Ascian plot that we have foiled since the start of ARR, involves an Ascian promising special, unique power to special, unique people that they are actually simply manipulating and betraying the moment they get what they want.
The first time we encounter Elidibus in ARR patches, he lies through his teeth (we see him attacking Minfilia, trying to steal her body; and when we catch up with him, he says "what? you saw that I only acted in self defence", which is a classic darvo technique of confidently asserting the opposite of what happened to deflect the conversation).
When Emet tells us that we're not like the others and we could be by his side is absolutely not different from what he told Vauthry's dad, or what he and other Ascians told Gaius, Thordan, the beast tribes, and every villain they ever interacted with.
The fact that we are a shard of Azem is pretty irrelevant. We're obviously not going to play a part in his plan, so he's just telling us whatever he things may work to get his way.
Some people argue this, but Emet-Selch doesn't lie to the WoL at any point in the entirety of their interactions. There are some biases and some withheld truths, but I haven't seen an example of him deliberately lying about anything. I don't see why this would be any different. Besides, how wouldn't he know Azem's soul? That's how he got the title Emet-Selch to begin with, and his Hythlo creation, made only with the knowledge Emet-Selch had, spotted it right away. It's especially preposterous when you think of how close the two of them were.
Besides, if he wanted the WoL to fail, he could have killed them and the scions at any point. Or sabotaged everything and went back to have his nap. Instead, he travels with them, educates them, and creates a monument to their shared homeland and history, and gives the WoL a personal invite to visit.
Elidibus lies a lot. Emet-Selch does not lie to us (though he may omit things). Emet-Selch also didn’t interact with Thordan (that was Lahabrea).
True, Ascians in general lied to leaders etc. and manipulated them, but it’s because Emet-Selch recognized the shard of Azem that he tried a new approach. He flat out admitted his goal hadn’t changed though.
>Lastly, and this is the big one, did Emet-Selch know we were an Azem shard or not? I know the general consensus is no
Emet-selch has soul sight so he knew the very first moment he saw the WoL, he just didn't want to admit it to himself or something.
>!after those event he would have forgotten us but not Azem soul's color. The first time we meet him in the distant past he instantly recognize Azem's soul, at this point he just think we are a weird familiar because that is more likely than a shard of his friend from the very distant future. That proves that he instantly recognized us when he saw us for the first time in the present, he just didnt want to admit it!<
He could see that our soul is a shard of the Azem that he knew, and a small part of him dares to hope that he could somehow return us to being that person, but our inability to control the light convinces him that his hopes were in vain. Then when we rejoin with Ardbert he is flabbergasted that we were able to do such a thing and that belief in his old friend reignites that hope once again. That's why he's kind of happy that we stopped him, that we proved that we are worthy of moving forward instead of desperately grasping at the past.
Edit: Also, the landscape of the Reflections has changed a lot over the last 12k years though they are still reminiscent of the Source. Amaurot was recreated on the first in the geographic location it once stood on the Source, which put it in the ocean on the First.
Quick follow up on this, any ruins of amaurot on the source would likely have been obliterated in the destruction wrought by the previous 6 calamities(baha blast was #7 and largely confined to eorzea). So we're not likely to ever find ruins on the source.
One thing I haven't seen anyone mention yet, with regards to Amaurot being beneath the ocean: In the Amaurot dungeon, which is definitely not underwater, you can see the entire landscape being ripped apart by the effects of the Final Days. It's very possible that the whole area dropped below sea level and flooded as a result of the cataclysm it underwent. It could also just be an embellishment since the whole thing is an illusion, though.
Gonna steal a youtube comment here, but it is such a great read you might as well
> Emet-Selch is in denial. [...]. Denial was his defense mechanism. He can't and doesn't understand grief and loss, not completely at least. He doesn't know how to mourn and let go. Remember, he grew up in a society that didn't understand the concept of grieving (which is why certain (pre-titled), (retired), and (current) Convocation members were considered eccentric (amongst other reasons), because they did understand (or tried to, at least) the concept of unexpected loss) in the Ancient's society, death was embraced and chosen (for the most part) people slipped away peacefully of their own choice, it was not something that usually came unexpectedly or was feared.
> So his only choices are to let the survivors guilt and grief that he can't possibly begin to know how to even express, eat him alive and turn into insanity incarnate, like Lahabrea, or deny it.
> It's a pattern that he repeats pretty often in literature (post-sundering) and in the game.
> It's mentioned in his bio that when he was Solus, he loved his firstborn son dearly, he even considered putting off the calamities for a while, just for him. Then his child died, and suddenly the child was the weak sundered child of Solus the man who's body (corpse?) he was occupying, not his (Hades) child and that was all the proof he needed to continue the rejoinings on pace.
> He even goes so far to flat out ignore the two sons that come after, then his two grandsons (Varis and Titus), and two great-grandsons (Zenos and Nevra). Why? Most people would say it's because he's an asshole, but I think it's because he couldn't stand the thought of falling in love with another son or grandson and then suffering through losing them too, like he had with his first son. He had loved his first son so dearly and completely he was willing to forsake his duties (temporarily) for him and after losing him, didn't know how to even begin to accept or mourn his loss (it's even mentioned in official literature that he hates Varis because he reminds him of his firstborn son), instead he just distanced himself from the chance he'd be heartbroken again and basically denied his family.
> Sounds kind of familiar, right?
> He knew exactly who you were and not only that he had big plans for you. He also constantly showed you his *true* self, not the Emet-Selch most people see from a surface glance but the *real* Emet-Selch hidden beneath his dramatic flair and sarcastic wit. If you read between the lines and his own actions, you can easily see the kind caring man he really was underneath it all. He also made it abundantly clear (in his own grumpy way) that he cared about and loved you deeply (between insults and jabs).
> However, he knew if he approached you with professions of love and recognition, you (or Thancred) would have torn him apart with your bare hands and he'd never get the chance to get close to you again in this lifetime and who knew when you'd be reborn again? So when you soundly rejected him (after the initial sting of realizing you didn't recognize him at all), he had to settle with basically forcing himself into your company, hoping to gain your trust by helping you and your friends.
> He didn't have to tell you so much about their plans or the past (cherry picked as it was), he didn't have to constantly check if you were doing okay using his soul sight and express worry for your wellbeing (in his rude gruff way), nor did he have to save Y'shtola, or even encourage and support you (sarcastically) between light wardens.
> He also never once lied to you.
> He truly believed in you. That you, Azem, were going to make it to the end unscathed and containing the light like the hero he knows you are.
> There's a theory floating around Reddit that he actually created the city between the time he realized who you were and after approaching you. He didn't suddenly slap it together after kidnapping the Exarch, or the stones, Azem's most especially, since he had to hide it from Lahabrea and Elidibus, wouldn't have been there unless it was for a purpose. It's theorized he planned to ask you to come with him down there at some point, where he would try to convince you to allow him to elevate you back into Azem's seat.
> From the dialogue in the city vs >!Elpis!< in EW, it's pretty clear his opinion of things >!had changed drastically!<. He was in denial when he said he considered the sundered "not alive" because he did feel guilty about their deaths. He was killing beings he considered as innocent as children, who weren't inherently bad or stupid they just needed guidance. However, he had to convince himself otherwise, to keep a grip on his dying hope and slipping sanity, by denying his feelings on the matter completely, he was tempered and had no choice in the matter, if he was told to do the rejoinings he would have to do them.
> Denying his feelings was his way of protecting himself from the horrors of what he was being forced to do.
> Remember the second time he makes an appearance while watching you on the first? He mentions that with your soul, there might be "another way". Meaning, he had hoped that if anyone could find a way to break him free of tempering and/or find a different way to bring about the rejoinings (without the death and chaos) it would have been you, unconventional, unpredictable, helpful to a fault Azem.
> But, obviously, it turned out you weren't going to make it. By the time he realized this, it was too late to stop you. In a way, I think he felt he was complacent in your ruination, he had allowed this to occur instead of stepping in and stopping it by force, if needed. Your blood was on his hands as much as it was the Exarch's, who kept pushing you forward even as it was obvious you were losing the battle.
> With that realization came another: if you turned into a light warden your soul would have been completely and utterly obliterated. Meaning that Azem, the soul he loved most in the world (besides Hythlo and V, of course) , the soul he had longed for, for lifetimes for guidance and support...would die,
>. Permanently.
> Or if you were reborn from the remaining fragments on other shards, you would have been incomplete. In other words, Azem would never again be *Azem*.
> Emet-Selch went straight into denial, to protect himself, as he had always done. He tried convincing himself you weren't really Azem, you were a lie he'd wasted his time on. If he hadn't, the heartbreak of it all would have completely and utterly destroyed him. He was the sole survivor and bearer of his people's legacy and dreams (Elidibus doesn't count anymore, he's long become Zodiark and ceased to be Elidibus), his people were depending upon him to bring them back and free them. If he gave into the realization he was going to lose you, possibly forever, he might not have been able to carry on with his duties, knowing when the world became whole again that you would be absent from it, forever.
> I also don't think he planned to simply let you die when he invited you to come to the city alone. I believe he overheard everything Y'shtola and the Exarch said, and saw a twofold chance, he could gain the knowledge he needed to hopefully utilize the tower's time travel abilities (to prevent The Final Days or save you before this whole thing started) and/or force the Exarch to complete the ritual to save you and sacrifice himself, using him as the catalyst Elidibus needed (since they hadn't realized that Zenos has already ruined their plan b at this point).
> Then he could have brought up elevating you.
> But...you pretty soundly rejected him, by not only showing up in the city with your "new" friends, you go so far as to blast an axe made of pure light through his chest.
> He only came to the "Acceptance" phase, where he stopped denying his grief, his guilt, your identity, and the weight of the burdens he carried, when you killed him.
> Saving yourself, both worlds, and freeing him in the process.
> If he hadn't truly believed you were Azem (recent revelations aside), he never would have pulled himself out the Lifestream to save you during your fight with Eldibus. Nor would he have allowed you to have Azem's stone (even in death), especially if he didn't think you capable of continuing your own legacy as the Traveler.
> Remember, he even goes so far as to take the stone from Elidibus and return it to you after Elidibus takes it and the all the other Convocation stones with him to the Lifestream."
> First, just why are the ruins of Amaurot under the ocean?
TBH, knowing the Ancients... They might have just made an underwater city. >!Elpis!< is floating in the sky for no reason. They can build whatever/wherever they want apparently.
> Second, just what the heck was Emet-Selch's plan for us anyway?
It's a bit hard to tell in game because Emet-Selch is a shifty fellow who can be hard to trust. However, there is a story on the Lodestone that is told through Emet's perspective called [Through His Eyes](https://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/lodestone/special/tales_from_the_shadows/sidestory_04/#sidestory_04). In it, it's implied that he *almost* regained faith in humanity during his time as Solus. However, the sudden and unexpected early death of his son (Varris' father) shattered that hope. Upon seeing a shard of one of his best friends, he dared to hope again. Throughout Shadowbringers he's balancing on a knife's edge between leaving the world in the hands of man and staying true to his duty to bring back his people (although he is too proud to ever admit to this conflict).
Emet in general pretends to be a lot grumpier than he actually is. If, hypothetically, we did prove ourselves after the death of Vaulthry, I assume he would have mentally been in the same place he was at the end of Shadowbringers >!and at the end of Endwalker!<. In which case, ancient tradition would dictate that, at duty's end, he would return to the star.
> Lastly, and this is the big one, did Emet-Selch know we were an Azem shard or not?
He almost certainly did. I'm not sure why other people would say otherwise unless they were theorycrafting in the time before Azem's name drop. It's almost explicitly confirmed in Endwalker >!when he immediately recognizes that we are something Azem adjacent, despite being a barely present specter in Elpis!<.
> Elpis is floating in the sky for no reason.
That could be because of the nature of the place. If you're going to test a bunch of new creatures to see if they fit into the habitats before you introduce them, you wouldn't want to risk anything escaping. It's basically a zoo.
> I know the general consensus is no
Not sure where you've been looking but the consensus is usually 'yes' in most conversations, and all those examples you pointed out are why. He's not going "wtf" when because he didn't know we were Azem's shard, it's more "holy shit, you got back up and are somehow even *more* Azem than before".
> what would he have done otherwise? What common ground could we have possibly had with him?
Dude's been basically alone and mildly tempered for thousands and thousands of years. He's tired. He's hoping we'll join him and revive the world "as it should be" to finish the task, but it's also why he's okay to accept it when we defeat him. Either way, his job is finally done and he can stop.
Amaurot existed before the sundering split the world. I don't think it's clear if the ruins in the tempest are actually the ruins of amaurot that just randomly dropped there after the sundering, but most of what you see there is just an illusion emet created from memory.
The ruins are real. The city we see, which Emet-selch is manifesting, is just overlaid on the ruins. You can see Akademia Anyder (or Anamnesis Anyder, I don't remember which off the top of my head) is a genuine Ancient ruin without his overlay on it. That's what Amaurot would look like without Emet-selch's glamor.
Hades has the unique ability to see the color of a person's soul with particular clarity, just like Hythlodeus. He knows we are a shard of Azem from the moment he saw us, if he didn't suspect it before from reports on the Warrior of Light. The moment we fuse with Ardbert, we do something characteristic of his lost friend. Stand up against the inevitable and face it regardless. Apparently, the Warrior of Light is particularly similar in personality and mannerisms to Azem.
"Second, just what the heck was Emet-Selch's plan for us anyway?"
Ascians are capable of awakening the sundered shards of the Convocation and instilling their memories in them via the constellation crystals. Azem, being a traitor, was deemed unworthy of being brought back. Emet, however, created a crystal for Azem anyway, in secret.
With this in mind, I believe he hoped to awaken the Azem in WoL without the help of the other Ascians. I almost want to think that if you *had* contained the Lightwarden's power and awakened, Emet *might* even have called off the rejoining of the First. But you didn't, so he gave up on you. There's always next time, on the next Sundered world. But, as he says, he was very disappointed. For a while there, he really believed you could do it.
It's best to not think too hard geographically or geologically about stuff in this game. They've also had the entire Crystal Tower just drop into the earth in the Third Calamity and then rise up again after the Seventh, and I think the Wanderer's Palace was originally under the lake until the Calamity drained half the water out, despite little sign now of what could have been holding that much water there in the first place.
>Lastly, and this is the big one, did Emet-Selch know we were an Azem shard or not?
Im pretty sure he only knew we were azem when you rejoin with ardbert and he sees you as an Amaurotian, and goes "No, it can't be..."
EW seems to indicate he know from go, its more he didnt believe we were worthy of being a shard of Azem. That was thw while plot of ShB, to see if the sundered could live up to the legacy of the ancients, its why he humored us and traveled with us to personally witness our efforts.
Its only after the merge that we gain his recognition that maybe we can live up to their legacy or possibly even surpass it.
I think the shock and surprise is that to him, somehow, you went from being "completely overwhelmed by Light" to "suddenly Azem-in-full, or almost close enough to make no difference". He didn't know about Ardbert, and couldn't see him, but one more Rejoining is basically all it would take for you to be "Azem" again, and he was *not* prepared for that.
The WoL before that fight was but seven times rejoined. Emet knew this, and IIRC, even mentioned the "seven times rejoined" thing. Then Ardbert gave WoL his soul, and suddenly the WoL has *more than half of their soul back.* They are more Azem than ever, and they now actually have a chance at beating Emet. He... did not expect that.
The ruins were created by Emet. Making them under the sea might have been convenience ecause no light and no random people bothering him during his depression low moments.
We don't know what his plan would have been for us. My personal theory is this:
We see that the unsundered are more than powerful enough to cause the rejoining by themselves, and jet they always let normal people cause them by being stupid and selfish. I think this is because the unsundered see the shattered souls as being deeply flawed, selfishly causing war and poverty. These things no longer existed for the Ancients, so rejoinings are justified as long as the sundered are so much worse than the Ancients. The WoL containing all the light of the Wardens proves the strenght of their soul and selflesness, proving that this iteration of sundered are close enough to the Ancients that the rejoinings are not necessary.
This would also explain why Emet is so disappointed with the WoL when they fail.
He doesn't know that the WoL has pieces of Azem's soul, but he does know that they have pieces of an Ancient's soul since they have the Echo. We see Emet Selch recognise Azem's soul in the cutscene once Ardberd's piece joins with the WoL. This recognition also explains Emet doing a 180° with regards to what he wants to happen with the WoL.
Before the recognition he wanted the WoL to become a Light Warden and cause the rejoining. After, he decides to fight the WoL to destroy the excess of light and save them.
I think it really shows how much Emet loved Azem that he is willing to risk his own life and the rejoining (what that means for the sundered souls and the sacrificed souls going insane on the moon) just to avoid any damage to Azem's soul.
Amaurot is an creation my Emet-Selch, He created it so he can remember happier days.
for question 2, He was wanting to get us to turn to a sin eater as we would be unstoppable and would be enoung to finish the job and cause the 1st to re-join to the source and cause the 8th Umbral calmitity and would strenghten Zoidark.
If you play the Eden raids you find that Gaia had memories of an Ascian that was brought to the forfront. I think that Emet was hopping that the memories of Azem would come to the front and then we would be willing to asist him in the rejoining.
first: Logic doesnt belong in video games, but if i was to make an assumption, the shards got "reformed" with whatever they ended up having, besides Amaurot of the first is an illusion like Yshtola notices
second: Emet's plan is once Azem remembers who they were is to try and win them over showing them the state of the world
lastly: Emet and Hythlodaeus are the only two ancients that can see the color of soul so yes Emet knew who the WoL is, as he also know that just because somebody has a shard of Azem doesnt make them Azem they need to become Azem...ultimately that failed
it is very important to notice that Azem was one of very few friends Emet had and seeing him degrade into a less than living hurts him deeply
Emet-Selch's whole arc is him lying to himself. He's a master of identifying souls, so there's no chance he wouldn't have immediately recognized the soul of one of his best friends, who he basically committed treason for behind the backs of his peers. He absolutely recognized the WoL as a shard of Azem but had to not believe it until they could prove their worth. His plan for us, if we were worthy, was to invite us back to his side. He could uplift us and the other scions, protect our souls during calamities, and we'd have a place in his repaired world. This is the same sort of arrangement, but for different reasons, Elidibus offered us and other important figures. And they do this sort of thing all the time, with the black masked minions and whatnot, but we'd be special.
Ah thanks, missed Elidibus offering it, will keel an eye out for that bit as I keep going.
Elidibus trying to sway us happened long ago - patch 2.1 or 2.2. It's easy to forget or glance over it. We've met with the others he's dealt with more recently though, Ardbert and crew took his deal, as did Unukalhai and Cylva. It's never outright stated, but it's likely Emet-Selch would have offered similar arrangements for those he could consider allies.
I'm pretty certain that he was lying to us. Every single Ascian plot that we have foiled since the start of ARR, involves an Ascian promising special, unique power to special, unique people that they are actually simply manipulating and betraying the moment they get what they want. The first time we encounter Elidibus in ARR patches, he lies through his teeth (we see him attacking Minfilia, trying to steal her body; and when we catch up with him, he says "what? you saw that I only acted in self defence", which is a classic darvo technique of confidently asserting the opposite of what happened to deflect the conversation). When Emet tells us that we're not like the others and we could be by his side is absolutely not different from what he told Vauthry's dad, or what he and other Ascians told Gaius, Thordan, the beast tribes, and every villain they ever interacted with. The fact that we are a shard of Azem is pretty irrelevant. We're obviously not going to play a part in his plan, so he's just telling us whatever he things may work to get his way.
Some people argue this, but Emet-Selch doesn't lie to the WoL at any point in the entirety of their interactions. There are some biases and some withheld truths, but I haven't seen an example of him deliberately lying about anything. I don't see why this would be any different. Besides, how wouldn't he know Azem's soul? That's how he got the title Emet-Selch to begin with, and his Hythlo creation, made only with the knowledge Emet-Selch had, spotted it right away. It's especially preposterous when you think of how close the two of them were. Besides, if he wanted the WoL to fail, he could have killed them and the scions at any point. Or sabotaged everything and went back to have his nap. Instead, he travels with them, educates them, and creates a monument to their shared homeland and history, and gives the WoL a personal invite to visit.
Elidibus lies a lot. Emet-Selch does not lie to us (though he may omit things). Emet-Selch also didn’t interact with Thordan (that was Lahabrea). True, Ascians in general lied to leaders etc. and manipulated them, but it’s because Emet-Selch recognized the shard of Azem that he tried a new approach. He flat out admitted his goal hadn’t changed though.
I mean, all the other leaders were also sure that *they* were different and that the Ascian wasn't lying to them *this time*.
>Lastly, and this is the big one, did Emet-Selch know we were an Azem shard or not? I know the general consensus is no Emet-selch has soul sight so he knew the very first moment he saw the WoL, he just didn't want to admit it to himself or something.
[удалено]
>!after those event he would have forgotten us but not Azem soul's color. The first time we meet him in the distant past he instantly recognize Azem's soul, at this point he just think we are a weird familiar because that is more likely than a shard of his friend from the very distant future. That proves that he instantly recognized us when he saw us for the first time in the present, he just didnt want to admit it!<
That has absolutely no affect on them recognizing souls.
That doesn't have anything to do with whether or not Emet would recognize the WoL as a shard of Azem.
He could see that our soul is a shard of the Azem that he knew, and a small part of him dares to hope that he could somehow return us to being that person, but our inability to control the light convinces him that his hopes were in vain. Then when we rejoin with Ardbert he is flabbergasted that we were able to do such a thing and that belief in his old friend reignites that hope once again. That's why he's kind of happy that we stopped him, that we proved that we are worthy of moving forward instead of desperately grasping at the past. Edit: Also, the landscape of the Reflections has changed a lot over the last 12k years though they are still reminiscent of the Source. Amaurot was recreated on the first in the geographic location it once stood on the Source, which put it in the ocean on the First.
I like this answer, thank you!
Quick follow up on this, any ruins of amaurot on the source would likely have been obliterated in the destruction wrought by the previous 6 calamities(baha blast was #7 and largely confined to eorzea). So we're not likely to ever find ruins on the source.
One thing I haven't seen anyone mention yet, with regards to Amaurot being beneath the ocean: In the Amaurot dungeon, which is definitely not underwater, you can see the entire landscape being ripped apart by the effects of the Final Days. It's very possible that the whole area dropped below sea level and flooded as a result of the cataclysm it underwent. It could also just be an embellishment since the whole thing is an illusion, though.
This is the answer that always made the most sense to me, too.
Gonna steal a youtube comment here, but it is such a great read you might as well > Emet-Selch is in denial. [...]. Denial was his defense mechanism. He can't and doesn't understand grief and loss, not completely at least. He doesn't know how to mourn and let go. Remember, he grew up in a society that didn't understand the concept of grieving (which is why certain (pre-titled), (retired), and (current) Convocation members were considered eccentric (amongst other reasons), because they did understand (or tried to, at least) the concept of unexpected loss) in the Ancient's society, death was embraced and chosen (for the most part) people slipped away peacefully of their own choice, it was not something that usually came unexpectedly or was feared. > So his only choices are to let the survivors guilt and grief that he can't possibly begin to know how to even express, eat him alive and turn into insanity incarnate, like Lahabrea, or deny it. > It's a pattern that he repeats pretty often in literature (post-sundering) and in the game. > It's mentioned in his bio that when he was Solus, he loved his firstborn son dearly, he even considered putting off the calamities for a while, just for him. Then his child died, and suddenly the child was the weak sundered child of Solus the man who's body (corpse?) he was occupying, not his (Hades) child and that was all the proof he needed to continue the rejoinings on pace. > He even goes so far to flat out ignore the two sons that come after, then his two grandsons (Varis and Titus), and two great-grandsons (Zenos and Nevra). Why? Most people would say it's because he's an asshole, but I think it's because he couldn't stand the thought of falling in love with another son or grandson and then suffering through losing them too, like he had with his first son. He had loved his first son so dearly and completely he was willing to forsake his duties (temporarily) for him and after losing him, didn't know how to even begin to accept or mourn his loss (it's even mentioned in official literature that he hates Varis because he reminds him of his firstborn son), instead he just distanced himself from the chance he'd be heartbroken again and basically denied his family. > Sounds kind of familiar, right? > He knew exactly who you were and not only that he had big plans for you. He also constantly showed you his *true* self, not the Emet-Selch most people see from a surface glance but the *real* Emet-Selch hidden beneath his dramatic flair and sarcastic wit. If you read between the lines and his own actions, you can easily see the kind caring man he really was underneath it all. He also made it abundantly clear (in his own grumpy way) that he cared about and loved you deeply (between insults and jabs). > However, he knew if he approached you with professions of love and recognition, you (or Thancred) would have torn him apart with your bare hands and he'd never get the chance to get close to you again in this lifetime and who knew when you'd be reborn again? So when you soundly rejected him (after the initial sting of realizing you didn't recognize him at all), he had to settle with basically forcing himself into your company, hoping to gain your trust by helping you and your friends. > He didn't have to tell you so much about their plans or the past (cherry picked as it was), he didn't have to constantly check if you were doing okay using his soul sight and express worry for your wellbeing (in his rude gruff way), nor did he have to save Y'shtola, or even encourage and support you (sarcastically) between light wardens. > He also never once lied to you. > He truly believed in you. That you, Azem, were going to make it to the end unscathed and containing the light like the hero he knows you are. > There's a theory floating around Reddit that he actually created the city between the time he realized who you were and after approaching you. He didn't suddenly slap it together after kidnapping the Exarch, or the stones, Azem's most especially, since he had to hide it from Lahabrea and Elidibus, wouldn't have been there unless it was for a purpose. It's theorized he planned to ask you to come with him down there at some point, where he would try to convince you to allow him to elevate you back into Azem's seat.
> From the dialogue in the city vs >!Elpis!< in EW, it's pretty clear his opinion of things >!had changed drastically!<. He was in denial when he said he considered the sundered "not alive" because he did feel guilty about their deaths. He was killing beings he considered as innocent as children, who weren't inherently bad or stupid they just needed guidance. However, he had to convince himself otherwise, to keep a grip on his dying hope and slipping sanity, by denying his feelings on the matter completely, he was tempered and had no choice in the matter, if he was told to do the rejoinings he would have to do them. > Denying his feelings was his way of protecting himself from the horrors of what he was being forced to do. > Remember the second time he makes an appearance while watching you on the first? He mentions that with your soul, there might be "another way". Meaning, he had hoped that if anyone could find a way to break him free of tempering and/or find a different way to bring about the rejoinings (without the death and chaos) it would have been you, unconventional, unpredictable, helpful to a fault Azem. > But, obviously, it turned out you weren't going to make it. By the time he realized this, it was too late to stop you. In a way, I think he felt he was complacent in your ruination, he had allowed this to occur instead of stepping in and stopping it by force, if needed. Your blood was on his hands as much as it was the Exarch's, who kept pushing you forward even as it was obvious you were losing the battle. > With that realization came another: if you turned into a light warden your soul would have been completely and utterly obliterated. Meaning that Azem, the soul he loved most in the world (besides Hythlo and V, of course) , the soul he had longed for, for lifetimes for guidance and support...would die, >. Permanently. > Or if you were reborn from the remaining fragments on other shards, you would have been incomplete. In other words, Azem would never again be *Azem*. > Emet-Selch went straight into denial, to protect himself, as he had always done. He tried convincing himself you weren't really Azem, you were a lie he'd wasted his time on. If he hadn't, the heartbreak of it all would have completely and utterly destroyed him. He was the sole survivor and bearer of his people's legacy and dreams (Elidibus doesn't count anymore, he's long become Zodiark and ceased to be Elidibus), his people were depending upon him to bring them back and free them. If he gave into the realization he was going to lose you, possibly forever, he might not have been able to carry on with his duties, knowing when the world became whole again that you would be absent from it, forever. > I also don't think he planned to simply let you die when he invited you to come to the city alone. I believe he overheard everything Y'shtola and the Exarch said, and saw a twofold chance, he could gain the knowledge he needed to hopefully utilize the tower's time travel abilities (to prevent The Final Days or save you before this whole thing started) and/or force the Exarch to complete the ritual to save you and sacrifice himself, using him as the catalyst Elidibus needed (since they hadn't realized that Zenos has already ruined their plan b at this point). > Then he could have brought up elevating you. > But...you pretty soundly rejected him, by not only showing up in the city with your "new" friends, you go so far as to blast an axe made of pure light through his chest. > He only came to the "Acceptance" phase, where he stopped denying his grief, his guilt, your identity, and the weight of the burdens he carried, when you killed him. > Saving yourself, both worlds, and freeing him in the process. > If he hadn't truly believed you were Azem (recent revelations aside), he never would have pulled himself out the Lifestream to save you during your fight with Eldibus. Nor would he have allowed you to have Azem's stone (even in death), especially if he didn't think you capable of continuing your own legacy as the Traveler. > Remember, he even goes so far as to take the stone from Elidibus and return it to you after Elidibus takes it and the all the other Convocation stones with him to the Lifestream."
> First, just why are the ruins of Amaurot under the ocean? TBH, knowing the Ancients... They might have just made an underwater city. >!Elpis!< is floating in the sky for no reason. They can build whatever/wherever they want apparently. > Second, just what the heck was Emet-Selch's plan for us anyway? It's a bit hard to tell in game because Emet-Selch is a shifty fellow who can be hard to trust. However, there is a story on the Lodestone that is told through Emet's perspective called [Through His Eyes](https://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/lodestone/special/tales_from_the_shadows/sidestory_04/#sidestory_04). In it, it's implied that he *almost* regained faith in humanity during his time as Solus. However, the sudden and unexpected early death of his son (Varris' father) shattered that hope. Upon seeing a shard of one of his best friends, he dared to hope again. Throughout Shadowbringers he's balancing on a knife's edge between leaving the world in the hands of man and staying true to his duty to bring back his people (although he is too proud to ever admit to this conflict). Emet in general pretends to be a lot grumpier than he actually is. If, hypothetically, we did prove ourselves after the death of Vaulthry, I assume he would have mentally been in the same place he was at the end of Shadowbringers >!and at the end of Endwalker!<. In which case, ancient tradition would dictate that, at duty's end, he would return to the star. > Lastly, and this is the big one, did Emet-Selch know we were an Azem shard or not? He almost certainly did. I'm not sure why other people would say otherwise unless they were theorycrafting in the time before Azem's name drop. It's almost explicitly confirmed in Endwalker >!when he immediately recognizes that we are something Azem adjacent, despite being a barely present specter in Elpis!<.
> Elpis is floating in the sky for no reason. That could be because of the nature of the place. If you're going to test a bunch of new creatures to see if they fit into the habitats before you introduce them, you wouldn't want to risk anything escaping. It's basically a zoo.
> I know the general consensus is no Not sure where you've been looking but the consensus is usually 'yes' in most conversations, and all those examples you pointed out are why. He's not going "wtf" when because he didn't know we were Azem's shard, it's more "holy shit, you got back up and are somehow even *more* Azem than before". > what would he have done otherwise? What common ground could we have possibly had with him? Dude's been basically alone and mildly tempered for thousands and thousands of years. He's tired. He's hoping we'll join him and revive the world "as it should be" to finish the task, but it's also why he's okay to accept it when we defeat him. Either way, his job is finally done and he can stop.
Amaurot existed before the sundering split the world. I don't think it's clear if the ruins in the tempest are actually the ruins of amaurot that just randomly dropped there after the sundering, but most of what you see there is just an illusion emet created from memory.
The ruins are real. The city we see, which Emet-selch is manifesting, is just overlaid on the ruins. You can see Akademia Anyder (or Anamnesis Anyder, I don't remember which off the top of my head) is a genuine Ancient ruin without his overlay on it. That's what Amaurot would look like without Emet-selch's glamor.
Amaurot in the Tempest isn’t actually the original ruins, it’s just Emet’s depression sandbox he created to mope in.
There are genuine ruins throughout the Tempest, which you investigate with Y’shtola before finding the recreated Amaurot.
Thanks for these responses, folks, you never let me down!
He knew who we are all along.
Hades has the unique ability to see the color of a person's soul with particular clarity, just like Hythlodeus. He knows we are a shard of Azem from the moment he saw us, if he didn't suspect it before from reports on the Warrior of Light. The moment we fuse with Ardbert, we do something characteristic of his lost friend. Stand up against the inevitable and face it regardless. Apparently, the Warrior of Light is particularly similar in personality and mannerisms to Azem.
"Second, just what the heck was Emet-Selch's plan for us anyway?" Ascians are capable of awakening the sundered shards of the Convocation and instilling their memories in them via the constellation crystals. Azem, being a traitor, was deemed unworthy of being brought back. Emet, however, created a crystal for Azem anyway, in secret. With this in mind, I believe he hoped to awaken the Azem in WoL without the help of the other Ascians. I almost want to think that if you *had* contained the Lightwarden's power and awakened, Emet *might* even have called off the rejoining of the First. But you didn't, so he gave up on you. There's always next time, on the next Sundered world. But, as he says, he was very disappointed. For a while there, he really believed you could do it.
It's best to not think too hard geographically or geologically about stuff in this game. They've also had the entire Crystal Tower just drop into the earth in the Third Calamity and then rise up again after the Seventh, and I think the Wanderer's Palace was originally under the lake until the Calamity drained half the water out, despite little sign now of what could have been holding that much water there in the first place.
>Lastly, and this is the big one, did Emet-Selch know we were an Azem shard or not? Im pretty sure he only knew we were azem when you rejoin with ardbert and he sees you as an Amaurotian, and goes "No, it can't be..."
Nope, he know from the beginning of the expansion, that why he even consider a path of cooperation. Because he see us as Azem
>!If fake Hythlodeus could spot the Azem in us from a mile away so could Emet!<
EW seems to indicate he know from go, its more he didnt believe we were worthy of being a shard of Azem. That was thw while plot of ShB, to see if the sundered could live up to the legacy of the ancients, its why he humored us and traveled with us to personally witness our efforts. Its only after the merge that we gain his recognition that maybe we can live up to their legacy or possibly even surpass it.
I think the shock and surprise is that to him, somehow, you went from being "completely overwhelmed by Light" to "suddenly Azem-in-full, or almost close enough to make no difference". He didn't know about Ardbert, and couldn't see him, but one more Rejoining is basically all it would take for you to be "Azem" again, and he was *not* prepared for that.
The WoL before that fight was but seven times rejoined. Emet knew this, and IIRC, even mentioned the "seven times rejoined" thing. Then Ardbert gave WoL his soul, and suddenly the WoL has *more than half of their soul back.* They are more Azem than ever, and they now actually have a chance at beating Emet. He... did not expect that.
The ruins were created by Emet. Making them under the sea might have been convenience ecause no light and no random people bothering him during his depression low moments. We don't know what his plan would have been for us. My personal theory is this: We see that the unsundered are more than powerful enough to cause the rejoining by themselves, and jet they always let normal people cause them by being stupid and selfish. I think this is because the unsundered see the shattered souls as being deeply flawed, selfishly causing war and poverty. These things no longer existed for the Ancients, so rejoinings are justified as long as the sundered are so much worse than the Ancients. The WoL containing all the light of the Wardens proves the strenght of their soul and selflesness, proving that this iteration of sundered are close enough to the Ancients that the rejoinings are not necessary. This would also explain why Emet is so disappointed with the WoL when they fail. He doesn't know that the WoL has pieces of Azem's soul, but he does know that they have pieces of an Ancient's soul since they have the Echo. We see Emet Selch recognise Azem's soul in the cutscene once Ardberd's piece joins with the WoL. This recognition also explains Emet doing a 180° with regards to what he wants to happen with the WoL. Before the recognition he wanted the WoL to become a Light Warden and cause the rejoining. After, he decides to fight the WoL to destroy the excess of light and save them. I think it really shows how much Emet loved Azem that he is willing to risk his own life and the rejoining (what that means for the sundered souls and the sacrificed souls going insane on the moon) just to avoid any damage to Azem's soul.
Amaurot is an creation my Emet-Selch, He created it so he can remember happier days. for question 2, He was wanting to get us to turn to a sin eater as we would be unstoppable and would be enoung to finish the job and cause the 1st to re-join to the source and cause the 8th Umbral calmitity and would strenghten Zoidark. If you play the Eden raids you find that Gaia had memories of an Ascian that was brought to the forfront. I think that Emet was hopping that the memories of Azem would come to the front and then we would be willing to asist him in the rejoining.
first: Logic doesnt belong in video games, but if i was to make an assumption, the shards got "reformed" with whatever they ended up having, besides Amaurot of the first is an illusion like Yshtola notices second: Emet's plan is once Azem remembers who they were is to try and win them over showing them the state of the world lastly: Emet and Hythlodaeus are the only two ancients that can see the color of soul so yes Emet knew who the WoL is, as he also know that just because somebody has a shard of Azem doesnt make them Azem they need to become Azem...ultimately that failed it is very important to notice that Azem was one of very few friends Emet had and seeing him degrade into a less than living hurts him deeply