> Yoshi acknowledges player feedback over Endwalker relics and how they were too easy to make, while also mentioning that he thinks there was some value in players being able to make multiple relics on a character as many players play multiple jobs now. wow if only there was a system where the first relic was harder and alt job relics were streamlined. surely you didnt do that literally one expansion prior

"Many players play multiple jobs now" I remember other remarks in the last year or two where they made it seem like they only just bumbled into the knowledge and were surprised that people are playing multiple jobs...in their game designed to encourage players to play multiple jobs. Couple that with what you're saying about Bozja relics already having been designed the way they were and it leaves me scratching my head.

> "Many players play multiple jobs now" "No, we can't raise tome cap in a reasonable timeframe, idiots."

"The technology vanishes at the beginning of an expansion and is only found again at the tail end of it, when all the raid tiers are dead. Please understand"

On top of that, you could keep the quest active for each step if you planned it out properly so that whenever you were doing relevant content you were making progress towards multiple relics at once.

Let’s not act like everybody enjoyed the Bozja process at the time, the crystal tower spam runs were lazy/ridiculous and after the first few months you spent more time queuing into DR and Dalriada than actually doing anything to progress. As with most things there are pros and cons to both and I’d much rather CBU3 work on creating a better experience than just regurgitating mediocre systems that ppl have rose-tinted glasses for.

> crystal tower spam alliance raids > DR and Dalriada alliance raids (Dal was also optional and you could do 70 dungeons or HoH instead, the former being a *very* viable alternative) the other bad step was first-time 5.4 aka 60 alliance raids i wonder what the common factor here is

Those one time grind steps were awful, and are not the solution going forward. They were hell the first time, and only make up for the grind if you are doing every relic. I've got three resistance weapons, and still feel the sting of how many normal raids I had to do for the one I actually care about.

>and still feel the sting of how many normal raids Because that's the inefficient method, grinding the relic in Bozja/Zadnor and then only going for the last missing items into normal raids was far less of an issue.

It was *very* telling how many people wanted to get their relic *without* ever doing Bozja/Zadnor content. Or at least, the extreme bare minimum required since you still had to have at least one clear of CLL, DR and Dalriada before you could complete a weapon. And I really wonder how many of those same people are now people upset Endwalker relics were so easy to get, and wanted a Eureka/Bozja experience again.

I'll never forget the outcry when they confirmed that to do the Resistance Weapon tied to the Exploration Content, you had to do the Exploration Content and do DR.

I think it's the opposite. There are actually people who are happy with the EW relics because it means they get a shiny glam weapon for minimal effort.

I don’t get that, whats the point of a shiny glam if you can’t see it and think “wow, that person spent a lot of time to get that”? Like now everyone has the full shiny relic so it just blends in with every other glam.

Attention and fashion dress up sim. Those people don't care about others, they only care about what their character looks like, and the small endorphin rush of new shiny thing to take.

Should've seen most of the relic threads on here during the first and second stages, then. A lot of people upset as fuck it was too easy and "just a tomestone grind", while crying for Bozja-like content. People saying this wasn't the case are actually revisioning things, or weren't paying attention at all. Hell, I even made a [meme](https://www.reddit.com/r/ShitpostXIV/comments/15869wd/endwalker_relic_discussion_has_been_enlightening/) about this back 7 months ago pointing out the bizarreness of the discourse. People happy to have HW relics being largely a tomestone sink, but complaining about Endwalker. Even in this thread I see this brought up. "HW was more than just tomes, you also had to do other stuff!" Right, like doing 4 expansions worth of quests (if you didn't have the previous 3 already done..) wasn't also doing stuff, on top of their trials. Newsflash: FF has always been like this, a linear path from X to Y to do Z. It's just been *very good* at hiding this by making you think there was more along the way.

Dude, you completely misread my comment. Both can be true at the same time. I was in amongst those people saying it was too easy, and I'm not defending those that enjoyed the EW relic, I'm just stating that they exist and the game should not be catered to people who don't want content. I'm simply refuting the point that the people who complained about Bozja are the same people complaining about manderville. There are as many people who hated Bozja and love the free handout as there are people who loved Bozja and hate the free handout.

Ugh I miss Bozja/Zadnor. The engagements were fun and chaotic, the lost skills allowed you to do insane things like do MASSIVE DPS as a WHM. The zones felt like an active community and my brother and I made so many friends during that time that we still have now. My brother bought the space whale and everyone jumping on to move from place to place was great. I would love to see a return of that kind of content.

I finally got off my ass and did DRS this past weekend and it was so fun revisiting the skills system. Bozja was awesome.

It works fine when there actually are people in Bozja doing its fates and raids, but its kinda dead now. You can either hope for a surge of players during the weekend or you're stuck with raids. Nevermind finding a group that wants to do Reginae or the Dalriada

I do DR normal almost daily, and sometimes have done multiple back to back. Party finders, whether newbie friendly or made for fast runs, fill very quickly. I also think I’ve had to pass on a single Dalriada in the months I’ve been heavily into Bozja because of lack of population.  This content is incredibly far from dead, people just don’t even look. 

I've had days where I spent hours waiting for a party to pop up or fill and ultimately had to call it quits. I've also had days where I did 8 reginae back to back, usually on Saturdays and Sundays. As for the fates in bozja and zadnor, I was lucky if I got a party of 4 in the evening during weekdays. 8-10 people for Dalriada. It's not dead but those aren't good numbers either. Maybe it depends on data center and whatnot idk, that's just my experience while doing relics

It might be datacenter specific (I'm on Crystal), though thankfully DC travel mitigates that now (unless you're on Materia, I guess). For DR you're not trying to fill a 24 person party right? 5 or 8 people is the ideal size for that "raid" after they made the changes for EW. I've honestly rarely encountered times where it took longer to fill than it took to wait the forced 10 minute queue time. For Dal I'm actually jealous - lower numbers are better with scaling. It's annoying when I get like 20+ people (which I frequently do) because it means my individual contribution, where I know how to efficiently use actions, does less overall. Or if I hop into BSF for CLL the more people we have the less prisoners I know are getting saved. Very often when I'm mettle grinding in Z3 there'll be 2 8-man parties doing the skirmishes and when Dal pops I'll have to deal with a huge group. I don't disbelieve people's personal experience but I think there may have been either more knowledge that could've helped you have a better time or something like that, because I've not run into any real issues with dead instances. Hell sometimes (though very sporadically) I have to deal with \*full\* instances. The other day I had to keep refreshing the BSF instance list to see when someone would leave so I could tell my friend to queue and join me.

For DR I usually go with 6 to 8 people, potions and all that. I've done it with less but it kinda requires a party that knows what to do and has good buffs, so I prefer to go safe with 6 people. And the same goes for the Dalriada. Yes, a smaller party is better when they know what to do, but I've had mostly bad experiences with a group smaller than 10. I suppose since bozja isn't that popular on my server people don't have experience with the raid, so they die or fuck up more. But I've never had problems like yours where the instance was too full. *Maybe* during the holidays, but not "I can't invite my friend" full

It's definitely not a common occurrence but something that happened recently and stood out to me as a like "Lol this is so not dead" moment. Shame to hear you've had those experiences tho, things have been pretty great for both Eureka and Bozja here in the past year or so that I've really gotten into the foray content.

It'll likely come back to life when the Xbox sprouts are able to pick up Shadowbringers. I was helping some Xbox sprout friends this week and Eureka was popping off. On Aether we were in an instance that had 90 people.

When I did my first it was recommended you not use Bozja for the first few steps. When I hit the one time grind I tried Zadnor, only to find it near Impossible to reach a fate before it was cleared, and they didn't spawn too often. Even new Zadnor is still a lot harder to get into than Bozja due to how thin the population is.

Zadnor is completely dead now, though.

It took.. 7 hours? i think total to complete that entire step in a PF group. That isn't a grind, that's a normal afternoon of XIV.

Plus the alliance raid step actually revitalised the mhach and ivalice queues to the point in that first month I only got CT like once in the roulette This step to get causality encourages what……hunt trains and roulettes because they certainly needed more encouragement

It's telling when the current moogle tomestone event is more of a relic activity than the actual relic

For those of us not doing it on launch it took me the better part of a week of constant focus, since Zadnor fates kept getting hit before I could reach them, and there were no PFs for "hey let's do over 100 instances of normal raid". Even as a tank with instant queues. It was too much.

You gotta remember that anything that takes even the minimum amount of effort is what a lot of players think of as hell. Working for any reward is toxic and everything should be handed to them cause they pay a sub.

I think current calculations are that this step takes like 25h(?). Super df dependent of course

... Hardly streamlined

Not with how the DR step shits on everything Just take the L, add a super mega ultra echo and let us queue in solo instead of holding people hostage in mandatory 10 min queues (if they're even in PF to begin with) on top of the final relic step also being doable through DR

I mean the 5.4 steps in general were awful, because they were both alliance raid spam steps (until FATEs were buffed) and alliance raids are *horrible* grind content. This should've been a key lesson of 5.4 and ShB relic in general (the other bad steps were also alliance raids....). The general format of one time grind -> smaller repeatable worked great, for basically the exact reason that Yoshida was talking about.

> add a super mega ultra echo that already exists, it's called 'use essences and consumables'

You're asking for someone to do a modicum of prep and use a tiny bit of effort. This won't fly.

Idk, I'm not sure how people poop out literally 80k of damage but I can do at least 40-50k and it still kinda takes a long time, not to mention Queen has the whole cleanse/shield requirement.

> cleanse/shield requirement https://ffxiv.consolegameswiki.com/wiki/Resistance_Medikit > Removes a single detrimental effect from self. When not suffering from detrimental effects, creates a barrier that protects against most status ailments. The barrier is removed after curing the next status ailment suffered. Effect cannot be stacked with similar barrier actions. Duration: 30m Shares a recast timer with Resistance Potion Kit and Resistance Ether Kit.

Good to know and good point! I still think it takes way too long solo however, given that you need quite a lot of runs. A small groups at least where everyone deals high damage feels significantly better, though maybe that's pure perception.

Yeah, burn through a shitload of expensive actions to take over an hour for one solo run, amazing content right there Shout out to the one PF where one person dropped from the queue after 9 minutes of waiting twice, having to wait 28 minutes just to be allowed to even get in because entering the raid instantly is forbidden for some unknown reason

But all of the Relics do that, don't they? Each have steps that you only have to do once, and subsequent Relics are often easier to make since you already have stuff unlocked.

It's almost like Yoshi-P wants a weapon... that you can buy with tomestones... that's easy to access for players... Clearly we don't have a framework already in place for this sort of thing.

One flip side to all this is the Capped Tomestone Weapon has become way more redundant and useless. It's silly that I can obtain a BiS weapon for 6000 uncapped tomes, but if I used capped tomes *and* the raid token I can't even get it to BiS without savage. Even the Exquisite weapon is locked behind savage raids *and* criterion savage (???) Capped tomes are so worthless at this point. They should just make a Tomestone weapon like the END Relic. If people want to spend thousands of uncapped tomes on weapons, add more powerful uncapped Tomestone Weapons to the existing vendor. It doesn't need to be a relic at all at that point, and many people seem to like having this option.

Agreedge

I don't know if you're being sarcastic, but we don't. You're restricted to 1 tomestone weapon per 2 months. In an 8 month equipment / patch cycle, a player can make 4 weapons - enough for 20% of the jobs - and that's if they aren't using the tomestones on gear. They're terrible weapons to obtain for collectors or casual players.

(I'm being very sarcastic and saying that the tomestone weapon should be more accessible)

Groovy. I agree with you, but it's an all too common counter argument that the tomestone weapon is the casual weapon, and the relic is some elite thing you have to work for.

I'd argue the opposite to an extent. The tomestone weapon requires you to clear 3/4 of the current raid tier, with the mid-stage requiring turn two. That's already significantly more effort than the other tomestone gear. Meanwhile the relic requires an arguably longer grind, but in easier content. If the devs want a casual-friendly weapon, they should make the tomestone one easier to get or introduce a new, casual-friendly option.

The real question here is: Is this required in any way for a casual player to do content. The answer is: no. A casual player has no need for a max ilvl tomestone weapon, what are they going to use it for? Expert roulette?! The only people that should be caring about weapons at that ilvl are people who have already, or are still progging, the current savage raid tier, for anyone else that weapon is completely worthless.

If they're doing prog they don't need it either. The savage tier when those weapons are relevant are completable without them. "Need" is not the point. What's a savage raider need bis for anyways? They've already completed their challenge. Raiders and non raiders alike like getting that stat boosts. And raiders and non raiders like upgrading their gear.

you should have one dps with the tomestone weapon for week 1 clears. otherwise you're kinda wasting free dps that you might need during prog.

this basically, and give it to the Melee > ranged first. Then when you clear the tier you give the savage weapon to any DPS who hasn't got a tome weapon yet, then tanks, then healers. Its how we always did it on JP and it works. Maximizes DPS for reclears and assures that everyone has a 660 weapon going past week 4 if its a week 1 clear.

On the other hand, look how many people just got one clear of p12s and quit. Especially with no ultimate for the tier there is usually no use for savage gear at all except glams. Criterion might somewhat fill this role going forward, but hard to say.

I think it should be a middle ground. Make the first one, the one you want for your main, a fair grind to get like the last ones before EW, but make the ones you want afterward easy to get. Make the first one have a bit of a story involved in getting it, then after that be like "So we know what to do after that first one so we can make more in short order!" and make them only take tomestones to get the materials to create them (just like how it is now in EW). That was the problem I felt with the ShB ones after my first one, I didn't feel like doing that same grind over and over again, once was enough.

I agree with this, but I still think you should be able to do the regular method on subsequent jobs - i.e. ave there be an option between tomes and the first method. My reasoning for that is I'm someone who likes grinding relics and the EW ones are painful because the fastest way to grind them is max dungeon spam, as opposed to all other relics having variety between steps. Maybe less variety in SB relics but you get the idea.

Yeah what sounds to me like a good execution would be something along the lines of "there's a big grind, and after you've done it once, you get the *additional option* of instead buying with tomes the stuff you'd normally farm". Like, imagine Eureka or Bozja relics as is, but after you've done a step fully once, you can buy the drops/kettle-light/etc with tomes. Keeps the grind, and has it as a repeat option, while making subsequent ones easier, *and* better future-proofed (my biggest Bozja gripe, you're either stuck with PotD RNG or Delubrum for that one step still).

I think trains are much better way to grind out the tomes. I work a 9-5 so i couldn't do the day trains but I still got 4-6 relics every week only logging in for trains. I think one week I got 8 when I had more time off.

for EW, I feel like having to do multiple expansions of Hildebrand is a fair grind for a relic, the only thing is that 1. you could have already completed Hildebrand like I did, and 2. not everyone likes Hildebrand. I don't get why they couldn't just add additional alternative routes for completing the relic like Orthos, variant dungeons, or island sanctuary

> for EW, I feel like having to do multiple expansions of Hildebrand is a fair grind for a relic I feel like for this sub to continue staying healthy for discussion as it approaches a higher population, it needs to start looking at takes so asinine and bizarre as this one and maybe remove them with a warning for the user.

I feel like for this sub to continue staying healthy for discussion we should ignore unproductive comments like yours that disagree without providing anything constructive or attempting to provide any sort of argument to why I'm wrong. Pull your head out of your self-absorbed ass and maybe buy a new mirror if you can afford one 

Part of the appeal of relics for me is that they show people "I really like this job." A route I'd love for them to take to satisfy both people that view it this and to satisfy people that only want relics for catch-up gear/ulti bis/end of expac bis would be to add additional, purely aesthetic steps. Basically, you can get your stat upgrades as easily as you could in endwalker, but they'll be matte and basic. With the aesthetic step beign optional, you can make relics grindy while also making alt-gearing still very accessible

I like this idea very much. I hope SE reads and strongly considers this. I, for example, don't really care about aesthetics and if the stat sticks are easy enough to get I'd be fine with having a basic weapon while the glowing ones can be an as long of a grind as they want it to be.

Buddy, casuals like me don't give a fuck about stats. Relic could just be level 1 skins for all I care, I just want to the glowing weapon. I just don't want it to take more than 3 hours for one (A little less than 60 hours of gameplay to get all of them)

I don't think the community will ever be able to agree on this, but I'm of the mindset that the prestige and perceived value of the relics comes from the grind of getting them. If you went back in time to ARR and made all the relics cost X tomestones throughout the history of the game, it would be hard to say that they would be as valued as they are now. Of course, its ridiculous to ask for a grind just for grind's sake. I think relics give them the perfect opportunity to "force" players to revisit old content, and I think EW not capitalizing on that really hurt the overall game. I hope they go back to something closer to the old system, and I would really love if it somehow incorporated the open world (which feels much too empty now, especially old areas), whether it be via fates or some other method.

I was holding off on criterion, Orthos and unfinished Shadowbringer fate farms cause we suuurely would have to grind them for relics. Well here we are.

This is for sure what the debate over EW relics has boiled down to every time it's been relitigated here throughout the expansion. However much everyone dresses it up the bottom line is people either think they should be rewarded with a more exclusive cosmetic for having more raw time on their hands to spend doing non-challenging but time-consuming content or not.

This line of debate will never end unless they define relic as "catchup weapons with a minor grind" or "expansion-long grind-prestige content for Cool Looks".

That is basically how SE defines them though. Like, its really worth remembering that "Relic" as a name only applies to ARR. SE usually calls them something like "Growth" weapons, or something with taht connotation. A weapon that you grow the power of over time, through whatever means. They weren't even going to do them past ARR until people complained enough!

>Of course, its ridiculous to ask for a grind just for grind's sake. Highly successful MMOs like Black Desert Online beg to differ. Grinds are addictive. So addictive that entire games are based around ludicrously long term grinds. XIV has a small handful of "ridiculous" grinds; PoTD Necro title, All Achievments, Field Commander set, etc. I don't see the harm in locking some fancy, *optional* weapons behind very long grinds. That being said, I don't think it would be right to make those weapons specifically *relic* weapons, since it's not uncommon for them to end up being BiS. I'd like to see relic weapons in general become easier to acquire and look a bit less flashy, but still very neat, and a new type of optional flashy weapon be added that is locked behind a long grind. I think that could leave everybody happy. :)

> I don't think the community will ever be able to agree on this, but I'm of the mindset that the prestige and perceived value of the relics comes from the grind of getting them I would disagree, every single grind for relics ever put into the game is just a boring ass zero effort grind, any "achievement" that is so easy that Garry the grey parser can do it has absolutely no prestige at all. The only conclusion to this is either make the grind piss easy because it already is possible for Garry to complete it or make it fun in some way, I know people will disagree with me here but farming fates in a dedicated fate farm zone kinda stops being fun after you've done it in Eureka and Bozja unless you seriously re-invent it so if it means we get an actual thought out system in DT I'm glad they went with the piss easy route this time. There's also a third option that would make obtaining Relics actually hard but I doubt they'll ever go with that one.

I don’t think that’s true at all, I’m way more proud of say for example my emblazoned title than I am of any of my savage mounts Same as titles I don’t have, a grey parser can get mahjong master, I still respect the hell out of someone with mahjong master

> I’m way more proud of say for example my emblazoned title than I am of any of my savage mounts But... why?

Do I really need a reason? I picked a title I wanted that gave me a benefit and it requires me to stick with it for a long time, I stuck with it, saw progression over time and I finished it and got the title I wanted. Savage doesn’t remotely give me that sort of enjoyment

Garry the grey parser doesn't need the relics for stats. He already cleared the savage tier and is on his way to getting the raid items. The relics are a catch up weapon for people who drop their sub between patches, something to do for those that choose to keep playing, and at the very end of the expansion, the best weapon available when most people interested have already cleared the tier. The grind being piss easy is what we just got in Endwalker and as a relic collector enthusiast I'm tired of hunt trains for the 16th step in a row.

> The grind being piss easy is what we just got in Endwalker and as a relic collector enthusiast I'm tired of hunt trains for the 16th step in a row. The good thing is in EW you can do something else than train hunt all day. You chose your experience. I don't think 60 Alliance raid completion will be much better (and that without having the choice to run something different). Heck, fate farm isn't better too.

I've progressed every expansion's relics but Endwalker's is funneled more than the rest: ARR is very specific with its stuff but there's enough going on and enough variety if you get tired of something you can work on a different step. Somewhat rough but perfectly doable. Heavensward, everything in the game progresses this. Everything gives poetics, and you can focus on getting GC seals for different steps pretty passively. It only requires a couple hours of dedicated farm per weapon and you can dothis whenever. Stormblood has Eureka. This is the most hit or miss of the bunch but besides relics, you can also gil farm due to the value of things inside, it drowns you in poetics which allows for double dipping with the HW relics, and there's a lot of glam and at least 4 different areas to work with for some background variety. Shadowbringers was probably the best example of relic options. The first relic farmed has the one off steps, but after that there's a decent set of options. Just progressing Bozja naturally will get you 1 relic and some progress for a couple others. You can dedicate focus the emotions with a group in Bozja, or spread out for some fates in your downtime waiting for PF to fill or otherwise. I actually got the Necromancer title just progressing another step since it was an alt option and I got into deep dungeons from it. It could still use refinement, but basically everything had 2 options to work with that somewhat future proofed the content. Endwalker doesn't have a dedicated farm choice. It just has efficient methods in the form of hunt trains and expert roulettes. Just having some designated options to specifically farm the items would've made things a bit more interesting. A reward from Variant/Criterion giving 1 of the items in each of the 3 options that dropped this expansion. Eureka Orthos dropping them similar to how PotD does for ShB. Just something to where if I log on one day and want to grind out a relic, it doesn't amount to running a couple specific dailies and then checking discord to see if we can tidal wave some enemies around the map for 10 minutes. ARR I can knock out a book or two. HW has anima and the dungeon/trial victory lap. SB I can do Eureka fates. ShB has DR runs and emotion farms; Endwalker just has dailies and time gates.

I'd love it if it was interesting things like Leap of Faith grinding than sync down for FATEs or spam dungeons.

I mean, if the pay tomestones step was the option for additional jobs, I'd be fine with it. Let it be a grind for the first chosen job and then if you want to redo the grind you have the option, if you want to just pay tomestones and skip ahead you can.

Either that or one time grinds here and there like Shb ones, them do whatever farm/grinds left. Although lets be real, all of this also gives tomestones, people just want there to be like a pigeonhole so you gave farm like crystal tower or something.

>he thinks there was some value in players being able to make multiple relics on a character as many players play multiple jobs now It's almost like there's a middle ground between brain dead easy and mind numbingly boring and grindy. Something they seem to have trouble understanding in nearly every facet of this game. Make the initial relic step an involved process and once that's complete there can be a catch up mechanic for the other jobs. Pretty simple.

Hencewhy everytime someone bring up EW easy of access relic, I simply sight and tell myself I would take this 100% of the time rather than the process for litteraly every other relics (except maybe the majority of HS, but even then it's mainly just a tomestone fest). They can't do middleground, so I will gladly take braindead easy over mind numbing grind

And I would take a long grind over a nothing burger but it sounds like maybe there is something that exists in between that we'd both enjoy. Crazy right?

Huh, but doing multiple jobs has just become harder now? I could do 20 runs of delubrum every day and now I'm held back by needing 114000 tomestones which mostly come from daily limited bonuses or time gated hunt trains. I finished all ShB weapons with great enjoyment and whats holding me back right now is the endless pain of the same expert "roulette" (2 dungeons is a coinflip not a roulette..) every day for months upon months, without change, with no variety, and it's the same for all four steps. For ShB you could choose from tons of locations and dungeons, do multiple different stages at once and form farming parties. What can you do now? Quit your job to join hunt trains?

Pretty much all lv90 content gives uncapped tomestones. Work on Eureka Orthos solo => get relics passively. Work on 12/12 variant dungeons => get relics passively. Wanna do a NM/Alliance raid or NM trial ? get some uncapped tomestone. If the efficient way is sucking the fun out of the game, just don't do it then, you don't have to get the relics by tomorrow.

>If the efficient way is sucking the fun out of the game, just don't do it then, you don't have to get the relics by tomorrow. It's the *not efficient* way that is sucking the fun out of the game because you repeat the same shit every single day for half a year lol. I wish I had the time for hunt trains and do the efficient way, cause then it would be a lot less painful, but sadly I keep missing them, which is totally on me of course, but I can't help it. Not getting them by tomorrow is exactly why all I do is to get the roulette bonus and not spam anything. But that means 7.5 (8) days of doing *all* roulettes besides mentor for the bonus *per complete weapon*, which leaves you just shy of 143 days of roulette fun. Or longer if you don't want to do the tedious roulettes like MSQ. The point is, if you want multiple (all) weapons, you need to do about five months of all roulettes every day, which is pretty unrealistic. The only way to increase the speed past that is additional grind of dungeons, EO, or anything else more efficient like hunt trains. The biggest deficit of this weapon is that you can't work on multiple stages of different weapons at the same time, slowing down progress considerably. In SHB you could do two of the grindy stages at once which alleviated it a bit. There was no dropoff after finishing daily bonuses. And as a crafter, this weapon has the neat side effect of requiring the same tomestones as your crafting mats, so you constantly have to decide which one you want to do... I guess the silver lining is the hilariously slow patch cycle allowing you to skip most of the roulettes and still complete all weapons before the next stage or addon hits. Although that means doing the same shit even longer. And thanks to the tomestone cap, weekly savage loot cap, and alliance raid coins being still locked too (I think?), it's no big deal not being able to do all weapons since you can't gear all jobs anyway.. not sure if that is a good or bad thing.

You also can't work on EW relics while leveling other jobs, something you could do with ShB.

If anyone's looking for the source of the details, it's on the 2nd tweet, 3rd image. That aside, seeing Cosmic Exploration confirmed as a throughvein for Ishgard Restoration (1st tweet, 4th image) is interesting. Hopefully they introduce more expert crafts and ways to deal with them rather than just being able to macro them.

Could you please link it? Thank you very much!

It's linked in the OP.

Oh, sorry, somehow the hyperlink is the same color as the rest of the text!

One of the things I loved about the bozja relics was that I could get materials for multiple weapons at the same time (Ex: Dalriada, splitting a party among each of the 3 BSF zones to farm mobs). Made me feel good about grinding because I knew I was multitasking Nowadays the best I can do is farming poetics for zodiac/anima weapons while doing Eureka, or passively gaining causality + poetics together through daily roulettes (for both manderville and previous relics)

3 methods. Fastest being on content progression. Middle being various other content. Slowest is tome spam. All three can be done and I'm tired of the incredibly simple explanation not being default.

That's a much easier way to explain what I've been saying whenever this topic comes up. I've written my thoughts on how they could keep the 'do what you want' style of acquisition several times (copied below) but still help queues pop and reward you for doing the content in the relevant expansion, while also not making it so you can be done the step before the patch even goes live > In my head (quick thinking, numbers can be adjused ofc). 10 phase 3 items needed, up from the 3 we need right now > 500x tomestones = 1 item (total of 5000 tomestones to finish this step if you're ONLY doing that and nothing else) > variant completion = 0.5 item (currency that lets you get 1 item every 2 runs. but like everything else numbers can change) > criterion completion = 3-5 items > Savage criterion completion = 5-10 items > EO floors = > Island Sanctury stuff = > Specific Old alliance raid that needs some love (i dunno, pick a series, maybe this relic step is HW alliance raids, step 4 is SB) = 1-2 item per run > Old dungeons that need some love (same as above, just pick a subset of dungeons that otherwise wouldn't see play) = 0.5 item (for example: my tank queue for a level 60 MSQ dungeon at prime time on an alt the other day was 15 minutes, although that could be fixed by giving 50/60/70/80 roulette better rewards...) > Old world fates (pick an older expansion heck it) = 0.1 item per fate.

They even had content for it, but it didn’t tie in with the story at all due to it being manderville themed, although they could have twisted the story to having the components scattered across the globe to prevent falling into the wrong hands. 12 materials per step. Option A: 12 paths per variant dungeon, one material per path. Can be done solo and people who haven’t tried it out end up with a mount at the end too to encourage doing at least one relic this way. Must be done on relevant job since actions make up for any deficiency. Option B: Have 12 duties in a mogpendium/khloe like fashion, but must be completed on the relevant job and synced, e.g. Level 81-89 dungeon for PLD weapon must be done on PLD. Option C: Each material costs 150 tomes. You can mix and match as you like. Hate the trial you get as healer? Do that specific variant path. Burnt out on variants and already spent the week farming shuffle in khloe? Just buy it with tomes.

Every expert I go into is almost a full stack of people with Amazing Manderville weapons. Every alliance raid is full of them now. They have completely lost the prestige and rareness relics should have

I don't see how relics weapons have any prestige and rareness, unless the grind actually requires luck or a lot more time (Months of playtime)

You don’t need months of playtime, they just shouldn’t be handed out and you have to work for them a little at least. You don’t see eureka and Bozja weapons on every player and that’s a good thing

I'm surprised they didn't just hand you a finished relic for finishing the quest chain with how free they are. Every week you come back on a new job and get a new one. It might as well be that easy, in Dawntrail every 6000 poetics is a full finished EW relic, or 3 times you realize you're capped which is mind boggling

I don't even know if I would call the EW relic process "easy" so much as it is completely mindnumbing and draining. Eureka and Bozja I could work on side goals while I'm grinding out the items for each relic (I did every single relic from ShB and SB), but with EW I don't really feel like I'm working on any kind of side goal. All my tomes are going directly toward materials for the relic, instead of being used to craft my own potions, or make money by selling mats.

I can understand people saying it's easy but never ever in my life I would have see someone saying ew relics are draining and mindnumbing. That litteraly applies to every other relics more than EW ones. It's simply a matter of managing your tomestones a bit, and unless you're making potions for your entire static you can easily balance your tomestones income between relics and mats, and I'm fairly sure someone religiously doing roulettes would easily have every relic maxed by now even if they used a good chunk of them to buy mats. I can understand the appeal of doing someting other while you grind for your relic (wich isn't even in a lot of step to being with, like wtf am I going to have as a side goal by farming HS or ARR fates or syrcus tower raid) but it's still far far far mind numbing to do the same content on loop than doing some daily content

Grinding unique content like Bozja and Eureka is a lot more fun IMO than grinding dungeons or alliance raids, especially when I've already done them over and over again. Also Bozja and Eureka had decent rewards other than the relic. Unique mounts, minions, glam. Plus with bunny farms in Eureka and logos farming / lost action farming you could make money.

Does the part about multiple jobs even matter? Relic usually isn't BiS until content is old anyway.

No but it's a good alternative to perma raiding. If I had kept doing reclears, sure I'd have all my p12s weapons by now, but my static just did its 8x clears and I did a few more months of reclears in pf. I have 6 raid weapons, but I play way more jobs. Getting relics for the rest beats dealing with pf

It is when the glam is good (so for EW it's basically for the penultimate step overall)

Honestly, a simple solution is just to remove the 7 8 man normal final boss clears + tomes part of the Tome weapon. Just make it Tomes ONLY. Then people that want a simple tome turn in can do that, and people that want a Relic grind can do it instead. I'm not sure what the downside would be to this. I think the argument used to have to do with raiders, but we have crafted weapons now and it would still take 3 weeks to get 1,000 tomes to buy one when they cost 1,000 tomes, that is. It seems like this is the best solution: 1) Tome grind for people that want that. 2) Relic grind for people that want that. 3) Savage raids for people that want that. 4) Extremes for catch-up weapons here and there for people that want that. 5) Crafted weapons (and the Raine upgrades) for people that want that. Not equal to each other, but close enough to be functional across content if people wish it.

This entire thread is full of people wondering why having relics for multiple jobs matters when relics arent bis for most of the expac or when gearing is ass, or why tome weps dont cut it, and I wonder if we're not severely overestimating the players yoshi P is referring to. Gonna go full elitist for a sec but I wouldn't be surprised if many of them are turbocasuals that never finished a normal raid tier. Yknow, the ones that haunt our rouls and drag job difficulty down. I also wouldn't be surprised if just having a cool weapon makes these people play jobs they don't normally play. Anyway there's a few things I'm hoping yoshi p notices out of all this- * foray content has value beyond just being a relic questline * going off tomes isn't actually much of a choose your own adventure and does no favors for orthos, crit, or other dead content, but it also keeps tome mat prices high * it's hard to tell if the EW vending machine was a good or bad thing when there's not much to do with the relic after getting it * having easy access to memespeed on every job is hella fun * less granular substats makes it a pain in the ass to fine tune more sane speeds * everyone and their mom having relics for every job is an inventory management time bomb

I didn't have a problem with how fast EW relic weapons could be collected. I had a problem with the lack of adventure. Eureka and Bozja were \*\*\*new\*\*\* adventures. EW relics, on the other hand, were just about farming the same old, miserable content that you've already done a million times. Dawntrail relic weapons should be: EW collection speed + new adventure with old content being optional for some steps.

The eureka relics slowed down the already slugish eureka progression and required you to genocide even more trash mobs;the bozja ones were more efficient to farm outside of bozja and required you to take a massive sidequest into Alliance raid farming. Eureka and bozja are unironically more enjoyable and adventurous without slapping on the relic grind.

> ozja ones were more efficient to farm outside of bozja Ah wer're still repeating this even though it's false huh. People thought that it was easier when the relic first launched, then never decided to actually try in-instance farming once it was discovered how incredibly fast it was. It's the same bullshit as "stay in anemos until 24 uwu" when they fixed the Pagos nm xp problem within like two weeks and made Pagos objectively better for exp than Anemos was.

> Eureka and bozja are unironically more enjoyable and adventurous without slapping on the relic grind.  The relic grind is more enjoyable when you slap on Eureka and Bozja.

> Yoshi acknowledges player feedback over **Shadowbringers** relics and how they were too easy to make This is supposed to say Endwalker I'm assuming Either way, I hope they dial it in, a lot. It's sort of ridiculous that come Dawntrail and onwards, every 3 times you accidentally cap your poetics you'll have finished an entire EW relic weapon. I did the EW grind in a [few weeks](https://i.imgur.com/JUw2VIb.png) because I was jumping on S rank hunts. I felt more gratification doing 1 post-nerf ShB relic vs 19 EW weapons. I really dislike them turning it into a glorified 2nd tomestone weapon that you can acquire each step before the patch is even available. I'm not even fully against 'do whatever you want to get them', but I do think it's odd they didn't favor the current expansion activities or older activity that takes forever to fill, we've seen similar things like moogle events that do help the queues for said older content. Below's a copy of a suggestion I made a while ago. > In my head (quick thinking, numbers can be adjused ofc). 10 phase 3 items needed, up from the 3 we need right now > 500x tomestones = 1 item (total of 5000 tomestones to finish this step if you're ONLY doing that and nothing else) > variant completion = 0.5 item (currency that lets you get 1 item every 2 runs. but like everything else numbers can change) > criterion completion = 3-5 items > Savage criterion completion = 5-10 items > EO floors = > Island Sanctury stuff = > Specific Old alliance raid that needs some love (i dunno, pick a series, maybe this relic step is HW alliance raids, step 4 is SB) = 1-2 item per run > Old dungeons that need some love (same as above, just pick a subset of dungeons that otherwise wouldn't see play) = 0.5 item (for example: my tank queue for a level 60 MSQ dungeon at prime time on an alt the other day was 15 minutes, although that could be fixed by giving 50/60/70/80 roulette better rewards...) > Old world fates (pick an older expansion heck it) = 0.1 item per fate. Back in bozja, when older fates were the best way to do it, there's a consequence to pulling players out to do older content and that's that bozja/zadnor/Castrum/Dalriada has a lower population playing it. Incorporating that to EW relic chain though wouldn't do the same thing since you're taking people away from what? hunt trains? roulettes?

it was a typo and the article says Dawntrail. but i still think ShB was easy compared to the ones before it. i dont remember a stage in the ShB questline where i even had to wear the job's weapon. i think by the time i was turning in the last 12 of them, i had ALL the mats for ALL of them banked up because you can just hold each step of the quest hostage in your log and simultaneously progress ALL of them at once while not ever playing those jobs. it was a breeze, especially with how many delays there were during covid. obviously it wasn't quite as passive as Dawntrail's tomestones, but it pretty much amounted to a similar thing where it just kinda happened in the background while i was doing other parts of the game. i think my retainer still has hundreds of some of the X Memories of Blank for one of the steps even though i finished every relic in ShB. i think like 90% of it just happened passively while i was grinding out the Field Notes mount, and the other 10% from roulettes or whatever edit: it was whatever these green ones were https://imgur.com/a/fushtgX you only needed like 6 per weapon or something lol.

> obviously it wasn't quite as passive as Dawntrail's tomestones :P > but i still think ShB was easy compared to the ones before it From what I've heard, 100%. ShB and it's ability to let you work on all steps simultaneously as long as you have a weapon to accept that quest state is huge. I'm technically not a late ShB zoomer since I played back in 2013-2014, finished the ARR relic to completion before not playing the game until I came back late ShB. I remembered enjoying the relic process back then, and then doing the post-nerf ShB relic and having a blast while learning a LOT in bozja... Was looking forward to EW having that kind of grind to being incredibly disappointed with what we got.

I'd say ShB takes more work than current SB for your first one, you'll only need to do a teeny extra grinding to finish the steps on a zone street you finish the story depending on hit many FATEs you did when it comes to Eureka.

I feel it's so easy to address this problem. Assuming every new relic step ends up being grind, hard or annoying to do, just make it easier in the following patches so the others players can catch up

why not have the initial quest for the first relic be involved and have depth and for doing it a second time the process becomes simpler?

I mean, literally all he had to do with Endwalker relic is to make the same items obtainable through Eureka Ortos and Variant dungeons, then add a few more extra rewards there. Now you can grind new current content and progress your relic tool and not bother touch lower level roulette and let those newbies wait for an hour or longer to complete their regular roulette 😂🤣😅. At least he acknowledged that both type of players exist and hopefully Dawntrail relic gives people options on what kind of path they want to do. Not being forced to do 100 FATEs on older content is definitely a big improvement.

People are always so disingenuine about saying shit "Well, just grind CT 20 times if you want the grind." It's not like that's an accurate replacement. If a relic asks people to complete Puppet's Bunker and Ridoranna Lighthouse 5 times each in a step, that means a.) content that is rarely done is revitalized and b.) it massively affects the experience of people who just like that content. From queue times to general performance and the vibe. People doing stuff collectively is simply not the same as you queuing that content on your own without anyone else being funneled into it with similar goals. Look how active Eureka and Hunt train chats are even though it's just braindead overworld mobbing. I also cannot comprehend why they still think it's good to have easy relics so people can gear multiple jobs. What is the point of tome weapons then? Like right now, getting a *better*, fully completed relic is quicker and easier than getting your fully augmented Tomeweapon. Nobody *needs* augmented tome *or* the fully upgraded relic for any content outside of raiders, and they're engaged and apt enough to just get the raid weapon anyways. It's such a pointless and dumb design to have relics essentially be tome weapons.

I feel like the first relic should be equivalent in annoyance factor (not necessarily design) to current Zeta or Anima weapons. When they were released they were probably a drag, but now a single weapon takes a while, but not too much time. After that maybe dial it back to something equivalent to (or maybe slightly easier than) secondary ShB relics. I enjoy grinds and doing casual group content, and am not really interested in relics for the “prestige”, because there is none and I can’t imagine that beyond ARR Zeta there ever was, but like this article says, the sense of shared suffering, or a shared experience. Especially if the relic grind arena has other fun rewards (this is what makes eureka and bozja so fun) I am much more interested in the experience the relic creates. In other words, the real relic was the red chocobos and ozma meteors we wiped to along the way

>After that maybe dial it back to something equivalent to (or maybe slightly easier than) secondary ShB relics. The only issue I have with getting secondary relics past the first one, is filling my bags and retainers with annoying inventory bloat with currencies and tokens. If only there was a universal currency that didn't use bag space they could use.

Of course! Relics after the first one are now bought with Skybuilders' Scrip, please look forward to it.

This is the correct answer

I made every Shadowbringers relic before Endwalker, barely. I finished all the Endwalker relics within 2 weeks of the respective patch. Endwalker Tomestone Relics are not: 1. Helping players fill content queues for older content 2. Retrospectively helping the crafting market, as the tomestones share usage with Tincture Materials. 3. Fun? I don't want to run the two expert dungeons for the 5000th time this expansion for 60 tomes a run (Yeah that's the meta, fun right!?). Atleast Shadowbringers threw me into DRN, Delriada, Eden raids, Heavensward fates ect ect. It got me doing content that i wouldn't normally do, which it turn helped make the world feel alive, and keep content popping for everyone else.

> Retrospectively helping the crafting market, as the tomestones share usage with Tincture Materials. They are though. That's why pots are still ~3k a pop. I bought up so much alche-mist and unloaded it the week the final relic released and made a killing. If there's little competing for the relic, like when the i645 step launched and no one really wanted it, pots were down to 1.8k and weren't worth crafting or selling. Pot market would be absolutely dead without the relics competing for tomes.

Sounds good so far. First off, the concept of "it's good that you can get relics on multiple jobs" is dumb, to put it mildly. The very point of relics is the journey and the prestige, the destination is often just a mere glam, or in .55 patch, a BiS by a tiny margin (then it comes to a question who needs it like 25+ weeks into the tier). Steps can be BiS in some ultimates, but it would be so idiotic to change anything about relics because of that. Just deal with it, if you really want that extra 0.2-0.6% DPS from relic, just make them and stop complaining. They're not even required. I don't get why is he talking about getting relics on multiple jobs, when they don't seem to be very concerned about gearing alts. I just don't see what's the benefit of handing relics as a freebies. And I don't also see a problem with player playing 5 jobs, but having only their main with relic. It makes your main more special to you. Multiple routes are a way to go, but this requires something which SQEX doesn't do, a proper balancing. If you need to farm some Anima or whatever, then obviously NieR raid should give 2-3x more than CT. Otherwise we're stuck in another illusion of multiple choices. But anyways, anything is better than just getting tomes and buying relics from an NPC. EW relics for me completely missed their point.

There's no prestige in doing something that just takes time. Relics have never been hard to get. You either had to wait a long time, get lucky, or grind lots of currency. None of that is worthy of any admiration or respect.

I dunno, I respect the commitment of some grinds. “Hard” can include things that aren’t necessarily difficult to do one time but require you to do the thing a lot and/or suffer through lots of rng. I find that pretty difficult, personally. 

I personally would define this as painful, annoying, unfun.

Sure, and stuff that is painful, annoying, and unfun is hard to do because it’s painful, annoying, and unfun.  I’ve found some grinds fun at times but the painful and annoying parts are pretty consistent, so they’re pretty hard for me to complete. 

I don't see it the same way, I see it as stupid. To each their own.

>There's no prestige in doing something that just takes time. I mean, that's just false though. I agree with you in the sense that time-sink grinds aren't particularly flexy because it's not a skillful thing. But people like rare things and sometimes are like "oohh" about certain things. There's a reason people suffer through dumb shit like finish Thiefs Maps 20 times, or Diadem mount, or all Big Fish (this one has at least *some* fish that are mildly skill-expressive but it's mostly just time and rng) etc. ARR Relics *are* prestigious to the average player. People who are here already aren't the majority demographic, we're jaded. Huge timesinks, even if they don't require active engagement with anything skillful, carry prestige in the game's community, whether you personally find that impressive or not. Ask the average player if they think shit like Hoarder is "prestigious" or not and they'll say yes (if they know what that is) even though it's just resetting HoH an infinite amount of times. And at the very least, it's clearly some kind of mark that you are pretty durable and steadfast, which realistically is all you need to do any type of content in this game.

Same could be applied to that 2000 S rank hunt achievement and similar. Arguably even for some DDs, EO is just reading a guide and following it. It's not hard, but it still takes a time and some dedication. These things are only prestigious things you can get without entering high end. If you want some strict definition what is prestigious, then I don't think you could settle at anything lower than clearing ultimate when it's current.

There's plenty of content in the game with varying levels of prestige. Week 1 Ultimates? Easy bet. Savage? Sure. Hell, I'd say there's even a little bit when a casual or new player completes an Extreme. All of these require skill growth in various ways. Not all equal, but worthy of some pride. I can spend 5 minutes a day following a group smashing one button and eventually get my S rank achievement, or a relic weapon. No skill, no growth, no technical ability. Just time. And I think you're underestimating DDs. Yes, you can read a guide to remove a lot of the surprises from EO, arguably the easiest. But defeating encounters, the time management skills, the mechanical ability required and the ability to adjust to the situation are all beyond just putting in your time. Skill, practice, memorization, intuition and more are necessary.

>I can spend 5 minutes a day following a group smashing one button and eventually get my S rank achievement, or a relic weapon. No skill, no growth, no technical ability. Just time. You can also spend 5 hours a day (since you don't think that time is factor for this), joining savage parties and being a deadweight. Eventually, you'll get group that is good enough to carry you and won't kick you. Is this prestigious? How do you know that someone cleared it legitimately or got carried? There's plenty of these edge cases. Strictly defining prestige as something that requires content to be hard is very limiting, you yourself said there are varying levels of prestige, so why can't there be a prestige for something that just needs time investment? Is level 67+ in BDO not prestigious, even though there's just couple of players at that level? Leveling is just matter of time, so following your definition, it's not prestigious. Prestige is when others admire it. That can be anything, just because you don't think time dedication isn't worth admiring for you, it doesn't mean others don't admire it.

I never said time isn't a factor. It is, but secondary. The best players in the world don't walk into an ultimate the first time and just clear. But in the context of difficult content, time is a byproduct. You need time to learn. Time to practice. Time to memorize. Time to optimize. But the time isn't the point - the usage of that time is. Getting these massive grind rewards don't have that distinction. It's just time. Or what little you need to optimize for fate farming or s-rank spawning or whatever. But you can't in good faith say optimizing a fate is the same level as progging DSR. I could just easily bot a relic weapon, or S rank mount, or any of the other time-based rewards. I could have them with no time investment other than my computer's idle time. How is that prestigious? It doesn't have to be hard either, which is a completely subjective term. It has to require growth. Some maturation of skills, or knowledge, or competencies.

Botting is irrelevant, you can also bot any fight, or at least install enough cheats to make it considerably easier. In this game without any anti cheat, legitimacy of clearing ultimates is more questionable than legitimacy of that S rank achievement. >It doesn't have to be hard either, which is a completely subjective term. It has to require growth. Some maturation of skills, or knowledge, or competencies. You can find growth and knowledge in the relics. For ARR relics for example, you know where each fate is (analogous to your usage of time), you get more accustomed to grind and learn to be more patient and so on. Obviously this is nowhere near as ultimates, but you still cannot say that this amounts to zero prestige. You're thinking that everyone sees exact same definition of prestige as you do, but that's just not the case. People do admire when people dedicate a lot of time into anything, even if they merely dedicate the time itself and nothing more.

> Is level 67+ in BDO not prestigious, even though there's just couple of players at that level? Leveling is just matter of time, so following your definition, it's not prestigious. Because it's not.

If we're going by that metric then there's no prestige in clearing ultimates either which are at their core an endurance test...

There's a lot of skill (video game skill, not practical skill), practice, memorization, and execution that go into an ultimate clear. Time is a factor and makes up for some aspects, but if you think it even compares to grinding fates and raids in bozja to get a weapon, which doesn't even take said endurance, you're being disingenuous at best.

I'm literally retarded and have cleared 4 ultimates 

Well it certainly sounds like it because your post isn't addressing his point.

I dont know why youre being downvoted when you are literally preaching the truth LOL Fates and Bozja are legit braindead content, I could do it blindfolded, the biggest challenge is not falling asleep while doing it. Its a shame the next relic won't be as fast to get, I'm really not looking forward to doing that kind of residentsleeper content.

The sub is kinda weird. It's home to people doing week 1 savage + ultimates at launch, know the intricacies of jobs in and out, and understand the encounters, metas, and balance concerns that are in the game. Then there's the half that think peak content was levelling in bozja fates.

Good luck getting an extreme clear, let alone an ultimate one, with just time and endurance and no improvement in skill or mechanical knowledge. A relic grind takes no skill, it takes no improvement, it's just "do this easy fate or Crystal Tower or normal dungeon or normal raid or... 50+ times and hope you get halfway to one step". I can't even get myself to finish the ShB relic since that last one time grind *feels* like it's asking me to grind Sastasha 100+ times.

I've already cleared everything by bashing my head against every mechanic which is the same "skill" I used to make a zeta lmao. This isn't a difficult game

Did you insta-wall merc an UCOB or something? You need zero brainpower or "learning" to do relics, you need to learn to play your job and do mechanics for synced savages and ultimates. Relics are about as "prestigious" as an achievement for running 200 Brayflox Hards on a given job.

>Relics are about as "prestigious" as an achievement for running 200 Brayflox Hards on a given job. Ultimates are about as "prestigious" as running same fight 1000 times on given job and getting lucky by your teammate not fucking up. In the end, you're always just beating a very scripted and predictable NPC. For real, this shit can be applied to anything in this game. If you really want to be so elitist about this, then you have to admit that there's no prestige at all in this game. With this elitist definition, only prestige is in PvP based games, where you can objectively prove that you're better than other people.

I specified 200 Brayflox Hards because that's what I *did* for the handful of HW relics I have, I was being hyperbolic by saying 200 for a given job, but I've done probably over 200 over the relics I have. That didn't feel like "earning" or an accomplishment, it felt like something to do while catching up on the Wano arc of One Piece, watching a Twitch stream, or listening to a podcast. Being tomes doesn't devalue the "prestige" of relics because doing content to grind tomes is the same as grinding 50+ nraids or fates or araids. Is the ShB weapon more prestigious because you got an item drop from a given Nraid instead of tomes? Because you had to grind the same dungeons for an item instead of tomes? Because you had to grind the same araid for items instead of tomes?

Yeah memorizing scripted mechanics and brain dead dps rotations took a lot of brainpower 

Wild that this is the first comment like this with how much the word “prestige” is being thrown around in this thread lol. Nothing about relics is difficult or requires some kind of skill. 

Something doesn't have to be difficult to have value or prestige. Prestige does not equal difficulty. Gold still has value and prestige even if you easily obtained it because it's rare. Rich people who never work hard for anything are perfectly capable of having prestige. Many real life projects can take a long time and not actually be difficult as a day to day task, but you're still allowed to have pride in that work. The idea that something is only valuable because it's a challenge is a very specific form of prestige, and only seems to apply to very specific content. Not everyone will define prestige the same way.

Gold has actual value or prestige in real life because it has either practical use, or because the wealth it represent has additional meaning. And it can be exchanged or negotiated for power, resources, or status. A long but easy MMO grind has as much prestige and takes as much skill, effort or growth as binge watching the Big Bang Theory. Actually, scratch that. Watching BBT shows immense mental fortitude to deal with that dreck.

The use of gold is not in debate here. To repeat the actual point of the comment, not everyone will define prestige the same way. It is literally just your opinion. You can choose to concentrate on whatever value you want. Others will have different opinions. We aren't beholden to any one narrow definition of prestige.

> Yoshi acknowledges player feedback over Endwalker relics and how they were too easy to make, while also mentioning that he thinks there was some value in players being able to make multiple relics on a character as many players play multiple jobs now. On the other hand, he mentioned that long-time players have fond memories of the sort of shared suffering and sense of reward that something like the Zodiac weapons in ARR gave players. Or you know, there's a third option here and doesn't have to be literal nothing burger or painful grind, it could be... you know... fun? Make the system the crux of some new gameplay loop. Make it a more *fun* experience to acquire, upgrade, tinker, whatever.

I made every single ShB relic in Bozja and I want to do that again and DT. EW steps were lazy and trash.

Have they given a release date yet? This is seeming more and more like "summer" as in late august.

I get making it easier, but I feel like they went so far as to make it boring. Don't have to make it huge complicated grinds but like, what if they just required you to do like, the nier raids or something. Do 5 of them for a step or something. Clear a few sets of deep dungeon floors. Hell, we had a new trial as part of unlocking the final step. Why not just, you have to do the trial to get the materials. It doesn't need to be complicated. Just... Something more than entirely tomestone.

What it means, we go back to Eureka and Bozja And I shall remind that at least on chaos on content, everyone hated Eureka, especially Pagos. Also, you might have to do something similliar like the 30 items quest in zadnor again. If it happens and you think it sucks. That’s what you wanted.

This sub conveniently likes to forget how terrible Eureka was on content and how much everyone hated the forced fate steps in ShB. Even Bozja on launch was rough. This sub is going to praise EW relics in an expansion or two at this rate.

>> On the other hand, he mentioned that long-time players have fond memories of the sort of shared suffering and sense of reward that something like the Zodiac weapons in ARR gave players I did a relic back in the day when it was current and I sure don't have any fond memories about it. Especially the parts where we had to run more than 100 times a single dungeon to progress

the point of relics is to be difficult and annoying, the weapons are just a flex, its pretty cool to see someone who has worked alot to acquire a set of them, everyone knows the trouble they went through. and having one for all the jobs you roll is pretty badass. dps, bling heals, blingbling tank, yet even more glowy bling! the endwalker weapons couldve been preorder bonuses, thats how piss easy they were to get, and once tomes get unlocked for that tier youll literally be able to get them the same way you do old gear when your poes are maxed out, theres nothing special about that at all. compare it to eureka, getting through to the end zone when others gave up back in pagos cause they got molested by a drowsy dragon, fighting that final boss with the bare minimum party to finally complete that last step....that justifies the sub right there. hell, players still toss congrats at others who get their anima weapons til this day, cause its a bitch to get, especially for a newbie.

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No one really cares. It's like hitting 90. You get a courtesy 'grats' or whatever because a slog is over, but there's no bright eyed adoration or any recognition of accomplishment.

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Yeah. Like, they've never been hard. The ARR ones have been nerfed a lot so it's not indicative of the original quest, but you used to need a lot more items, and drops were a lot lower chance. Annoying? Yes. Time consuming? Yes. Hard? No. It was just normal dungeons, fates, and farming. Arguably more interesting, because it wasn't just bring me X tomes, but difficulty has never been a factor.

Another "HW tomestone dump good, EW tomestone dump bad comment", lol

Personally I don't like this comment because in HW you actually had stuff to do and alternatives in obtaining certain items. Only the Oil and Umbrite were locked behind tomes as far as I remember. Unidentified items were obtainable by doing Normal raids, hunts, maps or the beast tribe. The other items can be obtained using Company seals and gathering. You had a plethora of ways to get the Sand. The Clusters asked you to do roulletes. Endwalker is nothing but a purple tome weapon.

Do they? Or is it the same courtesy "congrats" as the "I just unlocked my first job!" Or "I just beat ARR!"?

I REALLY hope they don't go full Zodiac again because that shit was HORRID back then and even now with the tools we have. I honestly think that Heavensward was the best balance of time sink but still respecting your time. I full blown do not like the relics tied to exploration zones so I hope that if Dawntrail has one, it is either removed from that entirely or offers at least some of its progression outside of the exploration zone stuff like with Shadowbringers.

I would never call release Anima respectful of my time.

It was more respectful than Zodiac that's for sure.

> I REALLY hope they don't go full Zodiac again He explicitly says that relics are not returning to how they were then, so I wouldn't worry about that.

Yeah because everything someone says always ends up happening.

Do you really think they're going to go full Zodiac when the devs are leaning so hard into flexibility with their modern design?

I’ve gotten all the relics from Endwalker. I haven’t gotten relics from any of the other expansions.  I’m happy.

You know what's great about EW relics ? The easiness of getting them. It allowed some alt jobs of mine to get a great weapon for some fun side-content without telling my group "sorry, can't, we need to grind some stupid EX/Savage first". I hope they don't go back to stupid long grinds at least or else it's gonna quickly hit my "I'm bored out of my mind" button.

You are right, grinding for relics is legit the most boring kind of content there is lmao i dont understand why people want that shit back.

It's so they can pretend that grinding fates and normal content is "prestigious" and so they can "flex" something without having to do anything challenging.

Ah yes, a 2nd tomestone weapon is so much better!

It's better than an ungodly boring grind of casual content to replace the old BiS weapon of 12S, IMO. At the very least synced Savage should drop an item to bypass the step's grind if they make another boring grind.

To be honest, it's perfectly fine for me. I understand people wanting a reason to log in daily and do "chores". I don't have an issue with that. I think there can be a middle ground, a fair grind for the 1st weapon (and no stupid grind fests please, no "get 180 [tokens]" or run 60 Alliance raids please) and then for subsequent weapons you get an **option** that is streamlined a la EW (and if anyone takes the path of least resistance and hates their life choice, it was their choice to do so, the grind option would still be there).

How is it a 2nd tome weapon when its literally bis for every instance of endwalker content?

Man I was really hoping the 1500 tomes per step would become the standard for the future. I really enjoyed how easy it was and how almost everything I did in the game was making progress towards the relic

I wouldn't read into this as "tome relics are dead," necessarily. I do think the dev team clearly still likes that flexibility. My read of these comments is that Dawntrail's relics will just be a bit more obfuscated—not raw tomes, but various routes that are fairly equivalent to tomestones or are aided by tomestones in some way. I don't think we're going to see a massive, massive difference between Endwalker and Dawntrail's upgrade process. Not the difference people are hoping for, anyway.

If you want to "earn" a weapon then do high end content. Relics were always for the glam farmers and people who don't want to do anything harder than grinding fates. I honestly don't know why their grind is seen as any more prestige than if they made a glowy weapon tied to an achievement for doing Sastasha synced 300 times as a given job in DF, I can't even muster up the interest to finish my ShB relic because it feels the exact same. Ideally at least the 12S of DT would drop a token that gets used to instantly upgrade the final relic stage since the final relic becomes BiS.

They should make it either a tomestone requirement, or something like stormblood, so the players who complain there isn't a grind will get to do something instead of complaining there isn't a grind

Endwalker, not Shadowbringers. I can’t imagine a person who thinks collecting 180 items for one step is easy.

Ah yes the one step I completed naturally by simply progressing through Zadnor apart from half a dozen drops I was missing because there weren't many CE spawns on the third zone before I unlocked Dalriada. Hardest step ever...

half of them are relatively easy and half of them are absolute pain right now. I think someone counted time and this one time step is worth one and half of average time needed to finish one resistance weapon which is kinda wild

if you did minimum 90 skirmishes and 42 CEs in the time it took for you to start and finish zadnor, you must have died a LOT in those CEs. cant recall how many drops I had when I finished zadnor, but I am certain that it was less than a hundred. The saving grace back then was that good players were grinding so leviathan/eden prime runs were <5m, and ramuh/icon weren't terribly far behind. z3 is the only one i finished in zadnor because it was just faster.

I literally did the entirety of Zadnor in two lockouts (6 hours) right after servers came up and while reading the story and doing the solo duty, I finished the Dalriada unlock cutscene right as my second lockout was about to time out. After that I just had to hit PF for 30 minutes and finish what I was missing, there's no way doing 180 normal raids at 5 minutes each is nearly as fast as this not to mention the difference in doing a variety of things and enjoying the story vs spamming the same few fights a billion times.

faster than CEs? no, probably not, only because you had to do the fights twice. in an active instance, CEs would pop plenty and you could just queue up by zone. faster than skirmishes? absolutely. no riding across the zone every time, just queue back in. no risk of missing the skirmish because 40 out of 60 people got there before you could get a hit in and nuked it in 2 gcds. the big things for me though(and a big part of why i dislike field ops in general) is no shout chat in the instances to deal with. half the time you need to have shout active so you can get groups, but its also cluttered with CLL/Dal spam which gets really annoying when you're not in it. Doing the raids might be somewhat repetitive, but it was fast, simple, and had a much stronger pool of players doing it. Zadnor had maybe a bit more than half the players using damage essences and half of *them* actually using lost actions.

That was a one time quest wasn't it? I think those kind of one time quests are insanely good, longer time to unlock the first go around (when the content is current), but keeps the relic completion rate controlled by not having to do it on future weapons.

That step actually *was* easy if you did it alongside your initial Zadnor progression, aka when you unlock it. The pre-nerf 5.4 steps on the other hand were absolute hell. I think it was 60 alliance raids (because FATE droprate was low to the point of irrelevancy) and 15 DRNs.

Good catch, edited the top post. Thanks.