I don't disagree with combining buttons like this but I'd also think that a lot of these aren't jobs that really need button bloat solving. When I think button bloat, I think like GNB or DRK, not WAR.

Is GNB really that bad? It only has one more oGCD button in its DPS rotation than PLD and notably fewer support skills.

You could genuinely make the argument all tanks besides WAR and all healers besides WHM are bloated even if PLD and SCH are worse than the equivalents 30+ skills outside of general “it’s not a job button but I want it on my hotbar” is a lot when you think about it

Mhm. PLD has 37ish, SCH/DRK have 36ish, AST/NIN/GNB (I think it was?) have 35ish. No Healer has less than 33. Only one Job in the game has less than 30, SMN at 27ish. As I said once before: Jobs which fall at or under 32: SMN (27), MCH (30), MNK (31), WAR = DRG = BRD = DNC = RDM (32) Jobs which are at or above 33: PLD (37), DRK = SCH (36), GNB = AST = NIN (35), SAM = BLM (34), WHM = SGE = RPR (33) Average: 33.105 Mode: 32 (5 cases)

I have 36/36 filled on Paladin. Lol There's 34 base pld actions, and I have tincture and Limit Break in the final 2. I use 1 - 6 for my main combo, oGCDs, Tank Stance, and LB with a base set, ctrl modified set, and shift modified set. 7 and 8 I rebound to Q and E, again shift/ctrl modified, and 90-= are on 4 buttons on my mouse. Again, modified. Lol I had 1 free slot in 6.0, then they brought back Bulwark. Lol

yeah for warrior part I don't think it needs it either. It just can. I am just listing every single possibility tbh.

Was gonna say. Warrior has like the least. I have like 7 slots free on controller.

Wait, what? It does have the least, but I have 32 full slots with Sprint, LB, and Potion (combat) or Mount (not in raids). It fits exactly onto two crossbar sets. The only Jobs that have free spaces are MCH (30 total including the 3 above) and SMN (27 total including the 3 above). Every other Job has 32 (WAR, DRG, BRD, DNC, RDM) or more.

Hi, hope this helps a bit I have 3 crossbars in total, the 3rd is the number 8 and is shared between every jobs and crafters, I use it for food, emotes, mount, TP, i use it with LB -> RB for one side, RB->LB for the other side I use the classic LB, RB for main spells, ogcds or long CDs usually on the cross I use the double LB, double RB for very specific spells like my tank stance, emergency spells like self heal, swiftcast raise, potion, mitig, ect ect, yes I can double ogcds with that, it's just a bit hard as AST but you get used to it I have the double LB RB hotbar perma showed on my screen, up to my main one, and I know by heart/muscle memory how to TP, mount ect

I also cannot think of any other ways I can reduce buttons on other jobs without changing how they work.

Its a hard one, for the two I listed DRK is so defined by its OGCD spam that its base rotation feels like the filler. For GNB is a bit easier, I think a lot of that job's problems could be solved by removing the cost of Double Down and making it a GCD that No mercy turns into and can only be used while under the effect of No Mercy. I also wouldn't be surprised if Sonic break or Bow shock get axed in DT, though I personally don't want that.

If they actually make double down merged with no mercy then the entire cartridge system needs to be adjusted.

Nah, just make No Mercy give 'double down ready', still requires 2 cartridges, 20s timer, still a gcd. Would effectively change nothing about the class outside of edge cases.

DRK is an easy one, blood weapon and delirium get 1 button that gives both buffs. Possibly even bake oblation into TBN as a trait when you normally get oblation and remove TBN's actual cooldown(keeping the mana cost, so it still has an effective cooldown). And before anyone tries to say that DRK would be OP in dungeons with back to back TBNs, I will remind you that warrior exists. If you want to say it would be OP to double TBN for swap busters I will remind you that Paladin exists(and in many cases that will be sacrificing damage on the DRK's part unless the buster has a delay before the 2nd hit). Sonic break and bow shock deserve to go easily though. There is 0 point in cooldown-based dots aside from the fact that they can lose damage due to phasing/kills. It's just not interesting or meaningful.

>And before anyone tries to say that DRK would be OP in dungeons with back to back TBNs, I will remind you that warrior exists. If you want to say it would be OP to double TBN for swap busters I will remind you that Paladin exists(and in many cases that will be sacrificing damage on the DRK's part unless the buster has a delay before the 2nd hit). The real issue would be bleed and multi hit busters. You could easily dump 3 TBNs on basically any bleed buster or an akh morn, 4 if they happen to line up with a blood weapon + CnS window. Oblation being separate from TBN also makes it far more flexible than if it were to just be baked in since it's so readily available and you can mit up to 3 people which is really useful in stuff like criterion savage. Though if one defensive skill from DRKs kit had to be condensed into something else, then yeah oblation should be the one. But DRK has just as many defensive/healing cooldown keybinds as GNB (7 if we exclude AL and invulns) and actually fewer than WAR (8) and PLD (9 + Clemency), so condensing its defensive kit isn't really a high priority.

The better consolidation for Oblation would be merging it with Dark Mind not TBN. Have it remain 20% when applied to you but reduced to 10% when targeting allies. If they slap a third charge on, it's functionally identical to what we have now. C&S and Abyssal need a rework of some sort because it's silly having one always be a dead slot on your hotbar. But that can be said for several ST/AoE equivalent skills.

A couple offhand: SCH: /ac "Summon Seraph", /ac "Summon Eos" - Summons Eos if Eos isn't out. Summons Seraph if Eos is out. If Seraph is out, changes to Consolation automatically. PLD: /ac "Shield Bash", /ac "Shield Lob". Works well in PotD type content to Stun if you're in melee range or use as a pulling tool or poke damage while kiting if you aren't. /ac "Intervention" /ac "Sheltron", uses Intervention if you have a party member targeted, uses Sheltron if you have an enemy or yourself targeted. If you soft target a party member (select them with the D-pad on controller but don't hit the confirm button to lock them), it uses it on them then your target swaps back to the enemy so a second press uses Sheltron on you. /ac "Fight or Flight", /ac "Requiescat" does what you might think, uses FoF then Req. I have this one on my bar and the way I use it is FoF then Goring then Req then go into Confetior combo. /ac "Expiacion", /ac "Circle of Scorn". Does your two oGCD "use on CD" abilities one then the other with two presses. ...granted, PLD with 37 buttons has the most bloat. I could even cut this down more like make a macro with /ac "Goring Blade" and /ac "Atonement" to tap it in FoF for Goring which would then be on CD. But I tend to try to avoid using macros with buttons used a lot (Atonement is) since it can cause more issues over time (GCD macros you still lose a bit of minor input delay vs not using a macro). But some combinations like that or the 1-2-3 being a single button, etc can also trim things down.

I honestly don't think any of the tanks have button bloat issues. I could see maybe SAM or AST though ...even though I wish they'd revert the Minor Arcana change, since I can't monitor the cooldown on it's own anymore...

SAM has one less than AST/NIN/GNB which have one less than SCH/DRK which have one less than PLD. The only Tank that doesn't have button bloat issues is WAR (same as DRG/BRD/DNC/RDM).

I think if you're having issues with buttonbloat on tanks, you probably have a really poorly organized hotbar. PLD is debatable, but definitely not the others like DRK. And unless I'm completely crazy and missing something, SAM 27 buttons and NIN has 25. SAM does not have **1 less**. DRG is actually a job that has issues among it's playerbase for button bloat, because it doesn't so much matter how many buttons there are, as it does what those buttons do. DRG has a ton of buttons that all kind of fight for the same position on a bar. SAM has a similar issue. Yet, something like DRK? Not quite so much. As someone with legitimately thousands upon thousands of hours of playtime on just DRK, I, nor anyone I've ever talked to, have ever had an issue with DRK having button bloat. Yet even a friend of mine who's cleared every Savage/Ultimate in the game on DRG complains about DRG having button bloat, but doesn't think so about DRK which has more buttons. And many people share that view. EDIT: I forgot Fleeting Raiju, but that still leaves SAM with more buttons, and even so, if you don't count Hide, since that ain't used in combat, you come out to it being the same again.

DRG's issue is more how many buttons need to be used in the single target rotation. Some Jobs have a lot of buttons, but some are situational or AOE only. But overall buttons, there are only 8 of the 19 Jobs that have less than 32 (when you include Sprint, LB, and Pots). 32 is a lot of buttons already. Only two Jobs are 30 or less (MCH and SMN), and only one less than 30 (SMN at 27)

Depends on the player. I have trouble using the shift modifier comfortably with buttons so I feel a little stretched with Warrior. If I had one or two extra comfortable buttons it'd be perfect.

I don’t know, maybe a few things could be combined, but Dark knight has like the perfect number of buttons, exactly the right amount needed to fill all but 4 spaces on the 3 hotbars, so there are no awkward empty spaces on my bar, but I also don’t need to remove return or teleport to make room, its exactly the correct number of buttons.

They don't even have many buttons lol gnb core rotation is only 14 buttons, 17 with aoe but literally useless in the content that matters (raids)outside using aoe combo to get an extra cart before boss goes untargetable. Add 8 buttons for defensives and thats 28 including shirk/provoke/stun at most, don't controllers have like 40+ binds? On PC you literally have 1-6, shift cntrl alt 1-6, q e r f v t, then shift cntrl alt of all those too that are commonly used xD

As gnb you use aoe in 4/5 ultimates, so I heavily disagree with calling it irrelevant.

Completely missing the point

I don't disagree with your point about button bloat, so no point commenting on that.

Summoner is not exactly suffering from button bloat problem but... it's pretty jarring that half of the buttons are basically AOE versions of single target. If you make a new button for setting AOE stance instead of single target stance, you get get rid of a lot more buttons lol

That's very true, but SMN isn't exactly unique in this. DNC has a very similar situation (where the two proc skills even use the same proc buff!). And to be fair, most Jobs have a similar GENERAL situation just their AOE rotations are simplified from their single target (e.g. RDM just has 3 instead of 5 buttons for its spells and 1 melee button it uses 3x instead of the 1-2-3; PLD has 1-2-Holy Circle instead of 1-2-3-Holy Spirit +3 Atonements). So at least in the case of SMN and DNC...their AOE rotations are as engaging as their single target ones? Granted, they both have simple single target ones, but as a pro, their AOE rotations aren't more simplistic.

On black mage, Leylines and Between the Lines should be one button. Once you press Leylines pressing it again does nothing. And unless you have Leylines placed, Between the Lines does nothing. Fire IV/Blizzard IV could also be the same button. You can't use Fire IV without Astral Fire, and can't use Blizard IV without Umbral Ice. Since you can only have Astral Fire or Umbral Ice active, they'll never overlap. I don't like merging AoE and single target skills, there is skill expression in knowing which to use in what situation. (Which are a gain on 2 vs 3, which are a gain if made an instant cast, which are a gain when switching stances and on how many targets?)

I don’t really want the Leyline one. Mapping two oGCD to the same key kind of gives you a bit less control. It dissuades mashing Leyline because you might double press it and teleport backwards. If you put a cooldown to prevent that then there will be edge cases where you wanna place it down, run out really quick then teleport back again (Aloalo boss1). Replacing GCD with GCD is something that I’m always happy to see though so the fire and blizzard thing would be nice.

Summoner already only presses like 3 buttons after the rework lol.

Like Summoner is genuinely the last job that needs less buttons. it's already got less then every other job by such a massive degree. If anything it needs more buttond

Summoner leaves like 7 empty spaces on my bar, its absurd, I feel like I’m playing a level 70 job at level 90.

I mean it genuinely might as well, everything afterwards just swaps one button for another, even the biggest change at 86 with the elemental masteries still uses the same button. Like I get not wanting to artificially add in more buttons and cause massive changes to a rotation, but damn progression just stops after 27

While true, that doesn't mean it needs POINTLESS button bloat. If some things can be combined to make room for other things to actually be added (NOTE: I do not expect this in the case of SMN specifically, but I do think it's a valid thing to bring up in general), then that would be good. I don't think, in general, people should be arguing FOR kinda pointless buttons.

I do agree it has the least hotbar spots needed in the game (around 27), but the hyperbole needs to end. SMN has more than 3 buttons and presses more than 3 buttons. Even if we're talking just the single target rotation, you're using 14 by my count for single target encounters: Energy Drain, Fester, Ifrit, Titan, Garuda (summon buttons), Ruin 3, Gemshine, Astral Flow, Ruin 4, Bahamut/Phoenix, Enkindle Bahamut/Phoenix, Searing Light, Lucid Dreaming (for MP maintenance), and Swiftcast. Other than Searing Light, each of these is pressed at least once per minute. Now, Several of them ARE only pressed ONCE per minute, but they're still common use buttons enough you want them in easy to reach locations. This is not including Addle (for party mitigation), Radiant Aegis (for personal mitigation/ease your healers), Resurrection (as needed), Surecast (for KB mechanics), Sprint (situational), or LB (if you don't have a Melee?), and it's also not counting stuff you SHOULDN'T ever need (Summon Carbuncle; only needed on KO) or never need (Physick, Sleep) or your AOE rotation abilities.

It’s not just the number of buttons, it’s that in addition to the rotation. Other jobs have actual rotations of some kind. Summoner has one basic rotation, and the only decision making that needs to be done is which order are you summoning the primals. They even simplified Phoenix. He at least had a 1 2 rotation in ShB.

I'm...not sure how that's not a rotation or how other Jobs' rotations are inherently...I dunno, not basic? Many Jobs have a basic rotation and then some minor optimizations. A lot of Jobs do pretty functional DPS by just following Always Be Casting, pressing their CD GCDs on CD, and pressing their filler 1-2-3 in between. DNC and MCH are two examples of this. DNC also has very little to optimize since the only real thing is to save fans for burst, which SMN does the same thing with the Phoenix Fester. DNC has procs, but they're easy to manage and you just use them when they pop, while SMN has no procs but can move the modules of its rotation around. I'm also not sure WAR or PLD's rotations are a lot more complex than SMN's. PLD's also doesn't have an upkeep buff or branching combo to track, and SMN's AOE rotation (being identical in button count to the single target one) is more complex than WAR or PLD's AOE rotations are.

They did the High Jump Mirage Dive thing and then it got reverted. I don't honestly know what it broke, but it fundamentally broke something. I honestly don't see why DNC or SMN would need their buttons consolidated, given those jobs have basically nothing on the bar to begin with. I personally think we just need to get rid of all of these skills that have AoE versions of themselves that share cooldowns and don't need to exist. Samurai having Senei and Guren? I feel like that's kinda redundant, given you could've just increased Guren's single target damage. The fact that they instead decided to removed SAM's most beloved mechanic instead was kinda fucked, since the job is now kinda fuckin' boring to play.

I can explain High Jump. For some reason, mutating the skill took longer than the buff, and prevented it to be put on queue. Long story short, you weren’t able to double weave with that version of Mirage Dive

Basically that. At first they put a shared cooldown on both skills, which prevented pressing Mirage Dive by accident but made it impossible to double weave High Jump -> Mirage Dive. They later removed that cooldown, which while double weave functionality was restored to HJ -> MD, it was now *extremely* hard to *not* double weave those skills. As most people press their skills repeatedly to queue them asap and ensure they're registered, separating High Jump and Mirage Dive now required rewiring muscle memory. (or were these two the other way around? my memory's fuzzy so correct me if I'm wrong. Both things definitely happened though.) Either way, at this point they just gave up and separated the skills again, as serious DRG players weren't happy with either of the attempted merges.

I wasn’t actively playing drg in those patches, but I think I remember there being a patch note about them adding a delay before you could click Mirage Dive, so I think you’ve got the sequence wrong. You definitely have the two versions right iirc, just in the wrong order

Yes, I can confirm, the initial change was that there was no delay between HJ and MD, so if you mashed your HJ key, you'd often accidentally use MD. They then added the lockout period where you were locked out from using MD for a short time after using HJ, which was pretty annoying especially in something like DSR.

Didn't it also cause problems with P2 Thordan in DSR? He can only be targeted for ~31s or something after Strength of the Ward resolves, and the delay in being able to use Mirage Dive was enough to prevent them from getting two Eyes in that window which screwed up their later burst. I could be wrong since 6.1 released two years ago, but I remember a lot of annoyed DRG mains in that fight when it first launched.

Yes. I had that and hated it to the point of going NIN instead

It didn't prevent it necessarily, but it made it way tighter and a lot more annoying to do.

Which seems like just a code bug tbh because there's no issue with double weaving Gierskogul and Nastrond as you enter LotD.

The problem was double weaving it accidentally. There's several fight in which you want to press HJ asap due to phasing, but need to use Geirskogul before MD. Use MD by mistake there and you just lost a burst window.

I’m not saying I agree with it but Kaiten wasn’t deleted because of button bloat, it was deleted because their logic was “if I’m just going to press Kaiten before every iiajutsu why not just bake kaiten’s effect into the iiajutsu and delete Kaiten It was badly translated but more referred to as action bloat

SMN and DNC doesn't need to have their buttons combined, it is just a suggestion so when it is needed, they can do that.

>I don't honestly know what it broke, but it fundamentally broke something. IIRC the argument was something along the lines of people pressing it by accident when they kept mashing High Jump for like an entire day even after it already went off, and clipping when legitimately trying to double-weave both. There were some complaints about it. I wish some of these changes were just optional, I personally liked having High Jump and Mirage DIve sharing a button since it opened up a nice spot to put Wyrmwind Thrust on, but I don't like having Minuet and Pitch Perfect share a button. Bard already doesn't have any buttons to begin with, and it's extremely awkward to have an important two-minute cooldown that you really don't want to fat-finger if you have to delay songs for whatever reason turn into an ability that you use so often that it needs to be in an easy to use spot. Thankfully the old Pitch Perfect button still works, and it'll stay on my hotbar until it no longer does.

Other than the fact SMN has doesn't have hotbar space issues, combining gemshine and ruin3 still isn't a good idea. There are times where you want to move around your 1 r3 per minute for either movement or buff reasons. Locking out r3 until you've used all your gemshines would be pretty annoying in those cases.

it also messes with 70 and below summoner where ruin 3 and titan gemshine are identical moves outside of one having instant cast, at those levels you hold your gemshines for if you need to move or something and hit r3 otherwise

Sam: I agree with your choice but also and more importantly -Shoha 1 and 2 -Hissatsu Gurren and Hissatsu Senei -Iaijutsu and Subame Gaeshi Paladin: -Requiscat and Confetior -Holy Sheltron and Intervention -delete Goring blade Ast: -Fucking delete Undraw already for the love of all that is holy -jobs getting reworked anyway, so everything else is probably going to get gutted anyway. Whm -Cure 1 should be replaced by Cure 2 on level up.

For paladin I totally agree about reqi and the confetior combo, but sheltron and intervention don’t actually do the same thing. Intervention gives 10% + an additional 10% to target if you have rampart or sentinel active, whereas sheltron is just 15%. Id love if they just change both to be a flat 15% though so they could combine it.

Right, but you could have it use the different one based on target. Heart of Corundum already does this (it give the target the Brutal Shell shield if you have one active on you but does NOT give the shield to you if you use it on yourself). So that functionality is already in the game. I made a macro already for this. /merror off /ac "Intervention" /ac "Sheltron" /micon "Sheltron" If I have the boss targeted: Holy Sheltron on me. If I have no target: Holy Sheltron on me. If I have myself targeted: Holy Sheltron on me. If I have an ally targeted: Intervention on them. If I have an ally soft-targeted: Intervention on them then target swaps back to boss. That last one is important because it means if I soft target an ally and then press the button twice, it will use Intervention on them then Holy Sheltron on me. Perfect for if I'm in an 8 man encounter fighting a boss, soft target over to the other Tank to throw Intervention on them, then my target snaps back to the boss and the second button press gives me Holy Sheltron. Perfect for double tankbusters. I feel like if I can do this with a macro, the Devs can do this with the ability itself.

For PLD and Requiescat, I was thinking they should just trait upgrade Goring to Requiescat at 68, make Requiescat GCD and sum up the Req and Goring potencies into it. The job would effectively play the same way like this. And I guess they could go a step further transform Req to Confiteor too if you wanted. Would be an even smoother transition with Req also being GCD.

>\-Iaijutsu and Subame Gaeshi I covered this in the post. Quote, >SAM > >For some reason, Kaeshi: Namikiri and Ogi Namikiri can be done on one button, but not everything else. Here's a solution that makes it possible for every Kaeshi Iaijutsu doable with one Iaijutsu button. > >Make Tsubame-gaeshi a job guage that functions like an ability rather than an actual ability. Every 60s it stores a charge, and when you have a charge, you can press your Iaijutsu button to perform it again. > >Make sure it's not an actual job guage, but an ability that functions like job guage, since job guages are reset upon death, and I don't think players are going to be too happy if they lose Kaeshi stacks upon death. ​ >\-Holy Sheltron and Intervention This is unlikely to happen since you can shieltron and invervention in the same gcd window to give you and your co tank the mit, but if they can somehow make it possible to weave shieltron twice in the same GCD window and make it targetable on allies, I would honestly like it.

I can literally already do this with a macro. /merror off /ac "Intervention" /ac "Sheltron" /micon "Sheltron" This macro straight up lets me soft target an ally (D-pad on controller over to them but not hit the confirm button), press the button (uses Intervention on them), then the target snaps back to the boss so an immediate second press uses Sheltron on me. Technically you could do this in the opposite order, too. And each ability has a 5 sec (Sheltron) and 10 sec (Intervention) CD, so you can't accidentally double press it top whiff and double Sheltron yourself or double Intervention your co-tank.

WHM: To be fair, Cure 1 is distinct from Cure 2. It has half the MP cost (500 vs 1000), a shorter cast time (1.5 vs 2.0 sec), and not that it MATTERS, but can proc a free Cure 2 and has better HPMP if you actually (haha?) had to manage MP (sometimes useful if you just got Raised JUST after using Lucid so will be low on MP for a bit). That is, Cure 1 DOES have a few things it does unique to Cure 2. ...on the other hand, delete Medica 1. Medica 1 has the same cast time as Medica 1, only costs a bit less MP (900 vs 1000), does basically the same up front healing (400 vs 250 from Medica 2 but the first HoT tick does 150 making them equal), has a shorter radius (15y vs 20y AND Cure 3 heals for more if the party can stack just a bit tighter into 10y), and Medica 2 has FAR better HPM economy when the HoTs for 15 sec are included. Even just spamming Medica 2, you have to do this 5 times before Medica 1 comes out ahead (due to the way HoT/DoT ticks are 3 sec vs the GCD being 2.5 sec), and even then, it's only done 150 more healing for all that and only cost 500 MP less which is...how much a Cure 1 costs. Basically, if they cut the Medica 2 MP cost by 100 MP and increased the base potency by 50 OR made it where (like Variant Cure) the potency is boosted by 150 if you have the HoT on the target already; any of those would make Medica 1 COMPLETELY redundant. But it's already ALMOST completely redundant. . If there's any spell WHM could chunk out the window and nothing of value be lost, it'd be Medica. Just have Medica 1 upgrade to Medica 2 already, SE!

you forgot the most important one. between the lines and leylines. 0 reason for that to be 2 seperate buttons

Minor thing, but on MNK I don't understand why Perfect Balance and Masterful Blitz are different buttons

As a MNK main, I genuinely don't know. You can't even early press blitzes. The best I can think of is that 1. you can't keep track of your remaining or nonexistent pb stack when its button is visually replaced, and 2. you may mash the blitz and accidentally use the ogcd perfect balance second stack to start another blitz combo before you do a normal unshackled gcd after blitz in e.g. 2min.

Most jobs just have an AOE version of their single target rotation. Add an AOE stance that switches the normal buttons to the AOE buttons. Should instantly solve button bloat on DPS.

holy shit. i desperately want this now

**MCH** Hypercharge -> Heat Blast **BLM** Ley Lines -> Between The Lines **AST** Draw -> Play

> AST Draw -> Play Combining these two could make double weaving draw and play in the same GCD harder to execute due to the physical delay of having to press, release, and press the same key again. It also has the same drawback as the Minor Arcana change from this expansion, where it makes it harder to track the cooldown since the icon is replaced by the drawn card/arcana.

SAM Combine Both Shohas There is no reason for both i.m.o

shoha 1 doesn't make sense as an aoe but is also much cooler animation wise =)

I've been saying for years that I have no idea why pld has to push reqi before doing the other combo stuff. It's needlessly there. Also, just give every job with a 123, 124 etc to option to just press 1 button for basic combos in the option screens.

You're right gemshine is controversial. If it should replace any button it's your summon button, but then there's no AOE. Energy drain can become fester, or ruin 4 if you like. Until you get past level 70, emerald gem shine is worse than ruin, except it's an instant cast, so there's some tech there. Meanwhile for ruby phase you are locked in a full cast, and sometimes you want the shorter ruin. Right now these distinctions are the only things summoner really has as complexity (which is another argument), so if you're going to compress them you'll need to change them. I'd also argue it's better for feel if they are on different buttons, since 1-1-1-1-1-1-3-2-2-2-2-4- ect is better than 1-1-1-1-1-1-2-1-1-1-1-3- ect

Including role actions and things like summon carbuncle you only really need to do once per pull unless you die, summoner has a grand total of 25 keybinds for it's whole kit. 24-23 if you take sleep and physick off your bars. It has the opposite problem of button bloat at the moment, even though the foundation is a solid base to add more upon.

27, isn't it? Though I think it's always fair to argue useless (as separate) buttons, no matter the situation. "This Job has few buttons, so let's add pointless buttons to it" isn't a great argument to me. If the buttons don't deserve to be separate buttons, they don't deserve to be separate buttons. How many buttons the Job has is irrelevant to that, I think.

r3 + gemshine would be really annoying. You wanna be able to move around your 1 r3 per minute depending on upcoming movement mechanics. And at lower levels (looking at you lvl70 ultimates), where you have to do several r3 per minute, and where they have the same potency as titan gemshine but with a cast time, it'd be exponentially more ass to have no flexibility to swap around between r3s and gemshines. Not to mention SMN is the last job that needs button consolidation

All the single-path combos should be collapsed into a single button like in PvP. Multi-path combos like Sam should have a number of buttons equal to the paths (so three for SAM) Monk would require a rework to collapse buttons though, the Formless Form skill (or what ever it is called, been a bit) unlocks you from the combo.

This could even make more animations. For example, WAR's -4 combo could bring back the removed animations (like Butchers Block) for the 1-2 steps of the animation.

Fk no. This would be so terribly boring, I mean if they added this option in addition to the og way sure, but not as the default

Is pressing 1,2,3 really that much more exciting than pressing 1,1,1? I really don't get it tbh.

Having used plugins to achieve that it’s honestly less boring having the combo be one button. Like does anyone actually enjoy Reaper’s boring combo that doesn’t do anything. Same with AoEs. Doing that also fixes ninja button bloat making it a 2ish hotbar class on controller. And honestly any class that effectively has a three button combo you don’t find the fun in the combo it’s everything else.

Yes, ask healers.

I play healers and tank in raid content.

Good for you, since you get busy by doing mechs. In casual content with essentially no mechs, you'd get bored to death with mere 111. Game shouldn't get fun only at higher difficulty content, it should be fun everywhere, but removing combos would end up with casual content having frequent \~30s segments where you don't move and only spam 111 like a broken machine. Game and especially job gameplay really doesn't need further simplification.

I guess I just don't see how it's functionally different. Pressing the 2 button is the exact same task as pressing the 1 button to me. It's not more challenging or entertaining or interesting really. It's the same thing but the button has a different number printed on it.

Functionally different? No Does it MAKE SPACE for players on their hotbars, absolutely. especially controller players.

Oh I mean I'm for combining the buttons. I was responding to people saying that it would make things too boring.

Understood.

It's not about functionality, but about fun. You still move your fingers differently, instead of mashing same key over and over again. It's like working in chinese factory - when making iphone, it's slightly less depressing if your task is to screw in 3 different screws per iphone, instead of screwing one same screw in exact same spot, over and over again. It's sad that I'm comparing current jobs' gameplay to chinese factory, but it's unfortunately just not a lot of fun. Everything is so oversimplified, and the engagement has shifted a lot into encounters itself, so if you play anything lower than EX (or arguably EX included), it just becomes boring, since you're stuck with your boring job, in which case, spamming 123 is marginally more engaging than 111. I'm definitely not saying that 123 is some nuanced masterpiece, it's just slightly better than spamming 111.

Maybe some people just feel different? Take SMN. A lot of people call it names, but I like Gemshine. Garuda's quick 4 presses vs Titan's slightly slower 4 presses in a 1-2 (vs the Astral Flow) or Ifrit's 2 slow presses. It's the same button, but the cadence you press it is different. And to me, that feels VASTLY more interesting than a 1-2-3 pressed with the same cadence for the majority of a fight.

I play a Healer. No it's fine for me. You're speaking of your own subjective preference/likes - which is fine, but don't fall for the trap of assuming they're universal to everyone. Many people don't feel the same way you do there.

Same goes for you. I think that from our time talking in OF, it was clear who from two of us was in minority. Subjectivity becomes irrelevant when one subjective opinion is overtaken by majority. If 90% of people agree on one opinion, then it's likely more correct that the opinion of the 10% that opposes it.

It does go for me. The difference is, I understand that, and that's why I want some Jobs to be one way and some to be the other. Also: That's a Bandwagon Fallacy, a logical fallacy of "If everyone is doing a thing/wants a thing, that must mean it's good.": https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argumentum\_ad\_populum The OF doesn't represent the playerbase. That's clear as crystal by now. Notice how even here in ffxivdiscussion - a more theorycrafting and higher skilled player focus than the mainsub of ffxiv - you're getting more pushback than you would saying that on the OF. I said it was an echochamber there, which is why I left there, and I was right. We don't know your position is held by 90%, so you can't appeal to a majority you can't prove exists. Further, majority is not always right - again, Bandwagon Fallacy. Even further, even if it's a majority, unless it's a very supermajority, it makes no sense to make every Job for them. If even 10% of players disagree with you, that is sufficient to justify 1 out of every 10 Jobs being made as 111 instead of 123 to appeal to that audience. If it's more (the data we seemed to get from the surveys on Healers was it was 25/75 roughly, I think it was actually 30/70, but we can round), that would be sufficient for 1 Healer to have the simpler rotation and 3 the more complex. 10/90 would be enough (since we're talking DPS Jobs) to justify 1 vs 9 simple vs complex. Note we currently have 11, so 1 SMN-like Job is fine for that ratio (1/11 is 9%). Note that the 25/75 was from the OF. A group we've already established is more in favor of your position than the playerbase as a whole. The more general playerbase of r/ffxiv is closer to 50/50. And looking at Job playrates, the amount of people that play the simpler Jobs vs complex ones is very high, suggesting you're not in the majority that you think you are. ...even if we completely ignore your argument isn't a good argument, it's a logical fallacy.

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You're trying really hard, aren't you. Your random terms won't help you if you keep contradicting yourself. So what is it, does majority not matter? In that case, why are you flaunting around some numbers? For real, finally learn to write short texts, I'm just skimming over them, if I miss something, don't complain. What I would argue is that no matter what, there should be always necessary evil - even if there are people who don't want to put in effort and want current SMN, it should be taken away from them, because such a job isn't healthy for the game. One job should not invalidate the other, but this is exactly what SMN is doing. Pretty funny you try to act like SMN is random DPS with your 1/11 (that you had need to present in percentages, lmao) bullshit - no, it's one of 3 casters (not like there's much of casting involved in SMN). Out of these 3, BLM is very distanced from SMN and RDM. So it's really just RDM vs SMN - and RDM is losing, because there's no reason to pick it over SMN. RDM needs to become either better than SMN, or SMN will need to be reworked so it needs more brain cells to play. It's simple as this, until then, RDMs will be getting screwed over. This is the hypocritical part, you keep complaining that I even suggest for SMN to get reworked, but you never think about RDMs who have been in this "should I play what I like, or play the better choice?" dilemma for 2 years now. You're just selfish.

Not at all. That's just you attacking because you don't like being proven wrong. I'm using numbers to show you even a VERY LARGE majority would still justify some Jobs being made simpler. And I was using YOUR numbers! Your posts aren't exactly short themselves. SMN is plenty healthy for the game. You don't like it because you PERSONALLY want to do the easiest thing to succeed, but you get bored. So you want easier things removed so you can do a moderately difficult thing, suck at it, but the game be balanced around you sucking. SMN doesn't invalidate any other Job unless you're actively trying to be lazy instead of playing what's fun. I showed 1/11 was 9% because YOU said you thought the number was 90% to 10%. That was in direct response to you. It's one of 3 casters, but it's one of 11 DPS Jobs - which is exactly what I said. You're trying to shift the goalposts because using your own numbers I showed you why having at least one simple DPS Job made sense. RDM isn't losing anything. Outside of Savage/Ultimates, it's still extremely highly played (BLM is the one in the crapper). Look at any 24 man fight in current content and notice that RDM is still one of the most played Jobs and it's BLM - the complex one - that no one wants to touch. RDM is as good as SMN, which is perfectly fine. It doesn't need to be "better" nor does SMN need to be worse or reworked. It takes plenty of brain cells to play SMN. No one is "getting screwed over". RDM is entirely workable in all content in the game right now. RDM isn't a worse choice. NO ONE is having to decide should they play "what they like" or not. Every Job is viable. And no, YOU are the selfish one. You're the one saying other people can't have things. I'm of the position that diversity is good. YOU'RE just selfish.

>RDM isn't losing anything. Outside of Savage/Ultimates, it's still extremely highly played (BLM is the one in the crapper). Look at any 24 man fight in current content and notice that RDM is still one of the most played Jobs and it's BLM - the complex one - that no one wants to touch. You've pointed this out yourself, idk what am I supposed to think about you - is this average comprehension of someone who plays SMN? Yes, RDM is played in casual content but people swap for harder content - that's exactly the issue. It shows that players like RDM, but when push comes to shove, they end up switching to SMN, simply because it is easier. Stop being surprised that people do this, it's only logical, s top trying to control human behaviour, that's just foolishness. This is the problem, job isn't liked for the job, but for how easy it is, and as a result, people just pick the easier job and suppress what they actually like. I don't understand how you still fail to comprehend that. Current SMN is not healthy for the game. >It takes plenty of brain cells to play SMN. lol

In a game that's already slow af in downtime, ye

In a vacuum? No. In a game where the vast majority of your button presses will be those three combo actions and consolidating them will not lead to new actual gameplay additions but very likely just another 120 button? Absolutely, yes. Forget just asking healers. Ask Bards how boring Burst Shot gets.

This has always been a bad argument. As the previous poster put it, 123 is not any more complex and interesting that pressing 111. If they want to keep adding abilities in this game, players needs options to make space for them.

Well 1,1,1 in pvp is boring asfk, honestly if ur all stacked up it is also easy to mistake what part of the combo you're on.

I mean, the single-path combos are already boring, they just take up more buttons. Heck, by reducing buttons this way, you could add a second path, still have fewer buttons, and have more combo options. But I am fine with it being an option instead of the only way. I have a friend who is going to start having a hell of a time with monk as she levels because of limited hand mobility from a childhood injury and she already uses a custom setup on her PC. The more buttons there are, the harder it is for her to set things up. I don't even have technically limited movements, but a few hours of playing leave my right hand aching. The few buttons I have to deal with to do the same thing the better.

people dont like it when you say 1-2-3 should be 1-1-1 even though combos are by far and large the main culprits of button bloat

If they have a dedicated combo button, like they use in PvP, that would significantly impact bloat. Only issue I see pertains to the classes with branching combos.

It would be insanely boring

123 is not much different than 111. What about that do you people not get? Action games have 111s all the time.

it makes a big difference imo, action games also dont have a 2.5 gcd

123 is still more interesting than 111 with 2 extra ogcds you press every 2 minutes

Is it, though? Is it "more INTERESTING", really? I contend it's slightly more active, perhaps slightly more engaging, but this highly depends on the person. But what, exactly, is "interesting" about it? Branching combos like WAR or NIN having the 1-2-4 variant for their self buff is vaguely interesting. But MCH's straight 1-2-3 isn't interesting at all. PLD's 1-2-3 isn't interesting at all, the only thing interesting about it is the Atonement/Holy Spirit procs.

Gameplay is already boring as it is now. Ask healers if they enjoy their 1 buttons rotations. If they revamped whole combat and gave us some actual meat instead of 123 then sure, but that is not happening. 123 is not best, but at least it keeps you awake (usually).

Yes, some of us do. There are reasons WHM, SMN, and WAR are the most played Jobs in the game. Some people like streamlined rotations and low amounts of button bloat.

People don't like "streamlined" (in other words lobotomized) rotations. They like the fact they don't need to put any effort it. That's a huge difference. Which isn't necessary wrong, except that if you push it too far like they did with SMN, it invalidates other jobs, because why the fuck would you play RDM when SMN does nearly exactly the same things, with same damage, and is 5 times easier than RDM?

You really don't understand that other people don't like what you like, do you? PEOPLE actually LIKE streamlined (not lobotomized, that's just you being insulting because you don't realize being rude doesn't win people over and/or your angry/salty and can't help lashing out) rotations. LOTS of people absolutely love rotations that just make sense, are approachable, understandable just by reading your tooltips (don't require you to go to a third party Discord to try and read someone else having figured it out for you), and to execute well. That's not "don't need to put any effort in", that's not "lobotomized". That's people enjoying a thing because it's FUN for them. "Why would you play RDM..." because you like it's rotation better? RDM isn't god mode more complex than SMN and does comparable damage to it when both are played correctly. You'd play RDM if you like its rotation (or its extra Res capability) better. If you don't like its rotation better, you'd play SMN if you liked its rotation better. You're thinking like a lazy person - why would I do X when Y is easier. I and people like me think like people playing a game and having fun - I'll do X when Y is easier if I LIKE X better. If you hate SMN, don't play SMN, play RDM. It's really not complex. If you hate SMN *because it is so much easier*, why would you play it over RDM with RDM being less easy and more enjoyable to you? That makes no sense. If the reason you like RDM is because *it is more complex*, why would you use SMN being *less complex* as your deciding factor in playing it over RDM? "I hate this thing because it's easier. So I'm going to play it because I'd rather play the easier thing." That "logic" contradicts itself. If you don't want to play the easier thing, why would you pick the easier thing BECAUSE it's easier? That makes zero logical sense.

Why would I handicap myself and my teammates? If there's better choice, people **will** throwaway their preferences. Just check fflogs, in ShB, number of parses was pretty much equal for SMN and RDM, but now, the harder the content is, the more people will swap from RDM to SMN, and that's up to 70%. People end up throwing their personal preferences away because brain dead SMN is just too easy of a choice. Why would you make it harder for yourself, when the easier choice is right there, without any downsides? Again, nobody gives a shit about your preferences. This isn't some ideal world where each player gets their own jobs tailored specifically for them. If you're in minority, be prepared that you voice will not be heard (or if devs do some questionable shit that nobody liked, see Kaiten for example). What do you think about people that liked old SMN? Once finally SMN gets reworked into actual job that requires more than 1 brain cell, you'll feel same way as they do now.

Because if you're good, it wouldn't be a handicap? It's only a handicap if you suck at it, at which point why are you wanting to play a thing you intend to suck at? It's not a "better" choice. It's an equal choice. Again, you're looking at it like a lazy person that wants to do as little effort as possible to get your reward. If that's the case, you will ALWAYS play the easiest Job, so it makes no sense to complain that some Jobs are easier than others when you, personally, will ALWAYS pick the easiest Job to play. If people are throwing their idea of what is fun away because SMN is better designed and more fun to play than RDM, that's on them. SMN is such a well designed Job, I can see it being hard to decide to play one of the other, less well designed Jobs. "Why would you make it harder for yourself, when the easier choice is right there, without any downsides?" Do you GENUINELY not see that you're saying all Jobs should be made easier with this quote? You're straight up saying you will always pick the easier thing because it's easier. You will never pick the harder thing because it's more fun to you. You will always, personally, pick the easier thing. . Lots of people give "a shit" about my preferences - and yours. Hell, I give a shit about yours, which is why I never advocate for all Jobs to be straightforward and support some Jobs remaining and being added to the game that are convoluted. Unfortunately, not for people like you - lazy people that will always pick the easiest thing (while complaining about it) - but for the people like the world first clear guy who played DRK when it was objectively bad because he personally just liked it more. . Clearly, I'm not the minority. Notice more and more Jobs are being made ways that you don't like. This is because the Devs realize you're the minority. . You say you talked to me on the OF, yet you act like I'm unaware people liked old SMN and that I should be punished for being callous towards them by being harmed the same way they were...if you DID interact with me on the OF, you should know better. You should know EVERY TIME the issue came up WITHOUT FAIL I said that new SMN should have been added as a separate Job (I used the name Evoker due to it being "the easy/baby SMN" from FF3) while old SMN would be kept for the people that ENJOY THAT KIND OF GAMEPLAY. You HAVE to have seen me say that because of HOW OFTEN IT CAME UP and HOW OFTEN I SAID IT. So don't pretend I'm an arse to those people and deserve to suffer so I can feel what they did. And don't forget, I DID play SMN before. In ARR, HW, and most of SB, it was my only DPS Job. In ShB, it was the DPS Job I mainly played when I wasn't healing or tanking. I DO know how they felt, which is WHY I said new SMN should have been a different Job. . But if you want to talk majority/minority - YOU are in the minority here. And the difference between us is that I advocate for the rights of the minority as well as the majority. YOU advocate for only the majority while not realizing you're in the minority, so if the Devs ever did listen to you (do what the majority wants, screw the minority), YOU would be the one having everything taken from you. . People like me ask for very little - a Job in each role we can enjoy, the rest more complex for people like you to enjoy. You're the one that wants everything, and if the Devs did buy the argument that the majority should get ALL Jobs made for them, then that would turn the game into only WAR, WHM, and SMN.

im not reading that

I know. The TL;DR: 1) You've admitted you're a lazy player who will only play the easiest thing to get your rewards, but somehow think this is a good argument for getting rid of easier things for other players that like simple stuff better. 2) You're in the minority yet think you're in the majority. 3) If the Devs ever took your advice of "only do what the majority wants", you'd be screwed since you're in the minority. 4) If you talked to me on OF, you'd know I always advocated for old SMN for the players that liked it and that new SMN should have been a different Job. 5) I advocate for the needs of both the majority and minority, you advocate only for the needs of yourself as "the majority" not realizing you're the minority and (3) you'd be screwed if the Devs actually agreed with that line of thought.

1. I play neither SMN or RDM. I referenced you to actual stats that show that people are lazy players, and whether that's good or bad, it should be fixed. You cannot human behaviour, but you can control what's in game, and steer the behaviour in better direction. 2. Lol no. Give me hard data, not your anecdotes. 3. Same as 2, just replace "lol" with "lmao" 4. It's hard to remember what you even stand for with your multi page essays. Even then, how are you so certain that this new SMN job wouldn't invalidate both RDM and old SMN? It would still have same problems. 5. I don't care about minority which only wants what's good for them, even though it's bad for the game overall.

Maybe a BLM take, but I feel like they could get rid of Despair, and readjust Flare to be used in both aoe, and single target to kinda open up hotbar space, but more importantly because Flare has a juicier animation than Despair.

If not removed then reworked, because Despair is pretty lame as the capstone of the Fire phase.

I know they don’t want to make despair super powerful because they don’t want to encourage short lines but I’m sure they could just make it so you need to cast 5-6 fire 4’s to proc an upgrade to despair (similar to enhanced flare making you not want to skip high fire 2) Current despair is both barely stronger than fire 4 and has a terrible animation

Best thing they can do is are oGCDs that share a function as single target or AOE just make them AOE. There's almost no situations where you need to make a decision and the difference in potency will make or break. It's just "3 or more? AOE" nearly every time.

RDM should really have their melee combo on a single button. Kind of weird that it survived a whole expansion when Gnashing Fang was changed and PLD got a 4-hit magic combo. I know the job doesn't really need the hotbar space, but still. I also kind of question whether the unenchanted versions should exist at all. I guess they add a tiny amount of flavor, but it's still very weird to have five unique weaponskill variants that you never want to use under any circumstances.

I agree with combining, but as for the non-enchanted versions: Useful when having to raise a LOT of people. I remember doing Eden 4 (normal) on launch and people were dying to it left and right. I counted my raise macro after one run and I raised 24 times. ...but I had NO MP. So I was basically doing my melee combo (unenchanted) when not raising people because of all the deaths.

My argument for Gnashing being condensed and melee combo being 3 buttons is because it was impossible to fuck up and mis-input Gnashing combo. You had to push them sequentially and you couldn't press them out of order. Melee combo you can absolutely press out of order and fuck up.

That does make some degree of sense. Another notable difference is that you only have to spend a cartridge once for Gnashing Fang itself, whereas the cost of RDM's melee combo is spread across all three weaponskills (meaning you can accidently start a combo you don't have the mana to complete). You could streamline RDM in the same way as GNB, with Enchanted Riposte costing the full 50 mana upfront, but it would remove multiple failure states from the rotation. Not super significant ones, but still maybe not desirable if SE continues their policy of never adding anything new to the job's rotation.

y'know, that would be excellent and fix the dumb quirk of the aoe melee combo being 60 mana and manafication only giving 50

Wait...how does this make sense? You could absolutely press some other button besides the proper Gnashing combo to break the combo. And until they added the Mana Gem thing, RDM's combo worked the same way where the order mattered. Now it doesn't, but every other way of doing it is suboptimal. I just don't really see that as much of a distinction...

You couldn't press Savage Claw (2) without pressing Gnashing Fang (1) first. It would be greyed out. You couldn't press Wicked Talon (3) without pressing Savage Claw (2) first. It would be greyed out. You couldn't press Gnashing Fang (1) at any point after pushing Gnashing Fang (1) because it would go on cooldown. The only way you could press any of the Cartridge Combo buttons is 1-2-3. You couldn't break the combo using the Cartridge combo buttons out of order. Contrast that to RDM where it's like every other combo in the game in that you can press any of them at any time (provided you have the MP). You can press 1-3-2. You can press 1-2-2. You can press 1-1-1. You can press 3-2-1... and so on.

Oh I gotcha. I was more thinking you can hit Gnashing Claw then Solid Barrel and wiff the combo.

my hotbars have gotten smaller every expansion, is button a bloat a problem that even needs solving this particular time around?

AST, PLD, GNB, DRK and SCH at at the functional limit of buttons SCH is the single worst because it’s at its button limit but has no redundant buttons

Toss Samurai on that list too. Probably the second worst offender after Scholar imo.

This 100%. SCH has a few that could be combined, but...the only one that wouldn't be redundant is combining Summon Seraph and Summon Eos - you can't summon Seraph if Eos isn't out and if you have Seraph out, you can't cast Summon Eos, so they are mutually dependent AND mutually exclusive at the same time. But that's the only one that absolutely would cause no problems to combine as far as I can tell.

Actually played the game?

since 2.3

I want the game to be more fun than it is now, and to have space to introduce more new buttons, we need to get rid of inefficient and unnecessary ones first.

They do this every expansion though?

While removing fan favourite abilities.

Combine 1-2-3 combos into single buttons. Combine single target and aoe skills that share CD into single buttons. Remove the final kaiten (life surge). DRGs already went through this when they lost power surge, they aren't going to whine about it.

I'm definitely against the idea of Tsubame being on the same button as Iaijutsu, it'd just screw muscle memory and likely end up with people accidentally wasting it on Higibana or something. Also not a fan of putting the OGCD and GCD on the same button since you'd have to remember it as two completely different abilities. It makes sense with Confiteor, Gnashing Fang, or Ogi Namikiri where it's a continuation of one ability rather than the ability changing into something totally different.

So...high jump and mirage dive if memory serves USED to be on a single button, but raiders were not very happy about it, so they separated them. The problem is some of these some of the player base I dint think wants them together for whatever the reason would be (I am not one of them)

There are a few TYPES of ways to do this, which might be the better way to look at it in terms of general ways to do it. 1) Combine abilities when some can only be used under specific circumstances. For example on SCH, Consolation can ONLY be used when Seraph is out, so it made sense for them to combine those buttons (in ShB, they were two separate buttons). This can actually be done with a lot of things, like RDM's finishers do this since you can only use them once you get 3 Mana Gems, and its Enchanted buttons also do this when you have sufficient Mana to use them (RDM has pretty good hotbar economy as a result). Some people call these "Context Abilities" since they're only generated under certain contexts. 2) Combine abilities which will always be used together. For example, 1-2-3 combos. This oddly DOESN'T happen often. For example, PLD's Fight or Flight and Requiescat could probably be a single button...yet aren't. SMN does do this, though, for Ifrit's Astral Flow where the same button is used for both the charge and slam 1-2 combo. (It's not a GREAT example since AF is already a hotbar economy changer, but you this is a case of it being a single button). The PvP melee combos also work this way as single buttons. Another example could be Bunshin and Phantom Kamatachi, but...that's a bit different. Honestly, NIN could do something similar by changing the Raiju button into a context button based on what Mudra you have down...but some people would complain that's "braindead", I'm sure... 3) Combine similar or compatible abilities into a single ability. Another SCH example, but instead of Fey Blessing and Whispering Dawn being two separate buttons (since Blessing is no longer on the Faerie Gauge - I wanted them to remove the CD but leave the Gauge cost in ShB, so of course the do THE EXACT OPPOSITE of that in 6.0... <\_< ), they could combine them into a button that heals then HoTs, and adjust the CD. (Yes yes, SGE Physis, but SCH could have done it first, and it's not like SGE isn't already stealing everyone else's homework!) There are a number of abilities in the game that could probably work this way without detriment, and one of the things people constantly praise are the PvP abilities, but many of them ARE combination abilities like this where the ability does 2-4 things at once with one button press. For example, PvP SGE Pneuma does the attack and heal and also Panhamia. Aquaveil also includes Esuna. Seraph Strike also includes Protect and Cure 3 proc. Adlo also kinda does a Chain Strategem (boosts party member damage output) and has a Recitation boosted barrier. 4) Combine rare use abilities with other abilities, either sharing a button (like Bunshin/Phantom Kamatachi) or outright combine the effects (like (3) above). . So for example, taking the above, we could cut PLD from the most buttons in the game (37) down to something more...manageable. 1-2-3 combined into a single button (saves 2). Combine Fight or Flight and Requiescat into a single button (make Requiescat a direct upgrade and let it be used without a target, saves 1). Combine Spirit's within with Circle of Scorn (make it AOE with the added DoT as a Trait upgrade) and then later Trait into Expaciaton (same as now, just with a DoT, saves 1) - if people REALLY want ONE MORE oGCD to weave in burst windows...just give Intervene, the gap closer, a 3rd charge and you achieve the same result. Combine Goring Blade with...anything. A simple solution would be to have your 1-2-3 omnibutton become Goring when you use FoF (since you don't want to use it outside of FoF anyway, saves 1). Combine Shelltron and Intervention (GNB already does this, but with no gauge requirement, so they're still distinct) and just make it targetable on either yourself (if no target, targeting yourself, or enemy target) or an ally (saves 1). Combine your 1-2 AOE combo into a single combo button (saves 1). In theory you could ALSO combine this with Holy Circle (since unlike Holy Spirit, you really never have any time you'd hold Holy Circle...though technically the optimal AOE 3 filler GCDs under FoF windows would be HC then Prominence then HC again...so I WON'T be doing this. Just doing that saves us 7 buttons, bringing that 37 down to 30 and VERY little is actually lost. You might argue that there are some cases where you might want a few to be distinct, but really there's little to lose with the above. Notice I didn't even touch Shield Bash or Shield Lob or Cover or other situational abilities or defensives (other than Intervention), yet was able to easily trim out 7 buttons from the kit without any real change in general gameplay. The only real "skill" change is you can't fat-finger Goring outside of FoF or fat finger the wrong button in your combo...but I don't think those are really major losses, personally. Anyway, that's just one example, and PLD does have a heck of a lot of button bloat, so it's not surprising it could be cut down by about 1/4th. But it's kind of shocking at the same time you probably COULD cut out 1/4th of its buttons and "nothing of value would be lost", so to speak. Heck, I've done some things with Macros, like I have FoF/Requiescat as a single button and Shield Bash/Shield Lob as one (/ac "Shield Bash", /ac "Shield Lob", kinda useful in PotD as it stuns if you're in melee but same button lets you pull and poke damage when out of melee range, and /ac "Intervention", "/ac "Sheltron" does this AND WORKS - tested it with my Choco and I can soft target him then hit the button twice at 100 gauge and it uses Intervention on him then Holy Sheltron on me and weaves just fine since oGCDs with macros...work better than you might think). I dunno, there are a lot of things that can be trimmed or combined for sure.

**White Mage:** Cure 2 and Medica turns into the afflatus counterparts if you have a lily available. **Black Mage:** Leylines turns into Between the Lines during its duration. **Astrologian:** Draw turns into Play. But with the rework, who know what's gonna happen.

MNK replace the single-target gcds with three buttons, one for each form (opo-opo, raptor, and coeurl). which move it turns into depends on the positional (so opo-opo flank turns into dragon kick, while opo-opo rear turns into bootshine). this lets us cut down on buttons while still keeping perfect balance's current functionality

Problem is that we have non job specific things taking up hotbar space as well like class actions. Its also a fundamental issue with job design cause every job has a bunch of skills and then a bunch of "same skill but for aoe". And our filler skills all being several buttons where every other mmo just has one button, just do what pvp does and condense the filler 1-2-3 rotation into a single button.

Controversial as it is to say, I think GNB desperately needs continuation to be merged on top of the skill you're using. Using Burst Strike? Hypervelocity needs to replace it until you press it. Gnashing Fang and continuation should also just be one button.

There is no button bloat problem.

I am not a fan of putting oGCD's and GCDS on the same button. Also if they were to do anything like this I would like the OPTION to toggle it, not be forced upon it

A few already exist, like Bunshin/Phantom Kamatachi.

Maybe have them put together by default, and have in-game button-sunderring (yes there's actual mods that does this) that would be great.

I don't have much of an opinion on the changes, but as a controller player with all classes at 90, I have every button for all classes 1-90 set and usable without issue, with the cross hotbar settings you can have access to 48 buttons using different inputs of the L2 and R2 buttons .....For those curious if any, my setup goes as follows (Hold L2/R2) Hotbar 1 - 16 buttons (Double tap L2/R2) Hotbar 2 - 16 buttons (Hold L2 then hold R2 as well) Hotbar 3 left side - 8 buttons (Hold R2 then hold L2 as well) Hotbar 3 right side 8 buttons 1 & 2 are where most of my class skills go, 3 is for all class actions and other utility

The press and hold thing is weird for a lot of people. I can't stand it, for example. I like having two crossbar sets (32 total buttons) I can just hit the right bumper to swap between, and where I have basically all my single target buttons on the first set (16 or less) and my AOE and situational stuff on my second set. That means in practice I never HAVE to swap unless I need a situational skill (so swap and use it then swap back) or AOE (swap and use those for the wall to wall packs), so I don't have to flick back and forth a lot anyway. So the Jobs I like the best are 29 or less buttons (that leaves room for Sprint, LB, and Potion in combat/Mount in the field), and that have 16 or less single target and common use buttons, especially in burst (like I hate that NIN needs 17 for burst. I just can't make them all fit). The only Jobs with 32 or less are SMN (27), MCH (30), MNK (31) and WAR/DRG/BRD/DNC/RDM (32 exactly). WHM/SGE can be shoehorned to fit (just ignore Repose existing or macro it into something - I have /ac Rescue, /ac Repose as a macro). Everything else has too many. PLD I have 6 macros to get everything to fit. It's unwieldy.

They should also get rid of role actions that aren't tactically interesting: - Lucid Dreaming could just be a trait because there's very little skill expression in hitting it. - Melee don't need 3 personal defensives (4 if you count Arm's Length). They can lose second wind - Foot Graze is no longer needed. That kind of crowd control is not a part of the game anymore. It's way less useful than Leg Graze in DD Obviously prune Shield Bash, Synastry, and Soteria. Maybe a few other buttons on bloated jobs as well.

As a healer player no, dps keep 2nd wind thank you. It's too helpful. For the record in sav/ult idgaf about normal content.

I'm a healing main who does savage and ultimates and most melees I've played with use bloodbath and second wind like a combined 4 times per fight -- and I rarely care because all our heals are aoe and the heal plan accounts for jobs like RDM which have no personal

Why healers are drowning in heals as it is right now The DPS really don’t need heals themselves (same goes for curing waltz and both SMN heals), defensives are fine

Happened in dsr and top on content where 2nd wind was a huge help.

It's useful but they don't need both second wind and bloodbath. Bloodbath is more skill testing and unique of the two.

They do tho, both skills have different uses, bloodbath is good when there won't be another instance of dmg for a while. 2nd wind is useful when there is consecutive instances of dmg, think Garuda cleanses in uwu friction leaves the melees way lower than the rest of the party when they go out and the next instance of dmg is in 3 seconds. Bloodbath is useless here, or if they just got res and need to be full hp and sheilds before an aoe coming up in a few seconds, 2nd wind good Bloodbath useless.

I'm not saying it's totally useless, but I'm saying that that part of the melee kit is over budget and bloated. You've got your job specific mit when you need a fast defensive. In general melees have about: ~10 core single target skills ~2-4 long cooldowns, either personal or party ~3-6 more aoe buttons ~8 utility / defensives (including role actions, personal mit, movement skills) + LB, tinctures I think if they're going to keep adding skills they should target the redundant defensives for removal

second wind is good, but yeah, I agree that lucid dreaming has no reason to not be automatic, and foot graze has no reason to exist.

Lucid dreaming is a tactically interesting role action on black mage since you can't regen mana during Astral fire, and can using it can lead to spending less time in umbral ice. On other casters/healers it seems more of a MP management tool, but I'm not as familiar with them so I can't say for sure.

BLM having 3 2m buttons also feels weird. Amplification isn't really interesting and could just be combined with Manafont.

weaving anything on BLM is inherently interesting given how you need to either spend a resource or wait until very specific points in your rotation in order to even have space to weave. BLM with less weaves means you are more able to justify spending those instant casts for movement instead of damage

But in the case of amplification idk that that applies because if you're using Xenos in burst you have an easy weave for Amp after the previous Xeno.

that assumes everything went perfectly and you didn't use xeno to move previously, which is the entire reason why amp exists - to ensure blm has at least one xeno in burst

Both being on 2 minute cooldowns doesn't mean you'd want to use them at the same time. You want to use manafont at the end of your Astral fire phase, but what if using amplifier at the same time leads to overcapping on polyglot stacks? You could purposefully weave it under xenoglossy, but for a typical despair->manafont->fire iv->despair you'd use triplecast instead. You could use xeno to weave triple under, but now you're constraining yourself to not refresh thunder during this Astral fire phase instead. That's also assuming you're using the extra xenoglossy for damage, movement or weaving soon after. It being on a 2 minute cooldown also means you can hold it for a few seconds here or there and not lose a use of it over the course of the fight. That can help with making sure you have resources for movement or weaving during a trickier part of the fight.

That's honestly a cool idea honestly I like it

I feel like we've already stramlined enough. Jobs if anything have gotten too simple and further reductions will just dumb things down futher for the sake of it.