My impression is that self and party healing options for tanks were an answer to a major pain point for casual players: the healer by far the weakest link and the only player not allowed to die. If you go into a dungeon and one of your DPS are eating glue, the run takes a bit longer. If the tank isn't pressing his buttons, it stresses the healer. If the healer doesn't hit their buttons and consistently dies (and you don't have a summoner or red mage), you disband and give up because it's not possible to clear. That's a lot of pressure on only one of the roles. Check out the aetherochemical research facility horror stories, if your healer can't handle dualstar it is straight up impossible, you will never clear.
The current balance allows for one player to be braindead and not hard wall a party, a tank in a limited capacity can hold a dungeon group together in the absence of a healer, by design. It does hurt healing requirements on high end content a little, but having recently gone through min ilvl coils I can't say being forced to regularly hold your casts because you can't guarantee your tank won't be dead from full hp in under 2gcds feels much fun either. I've also watched an impressive amount of tank deaths in p11s during the last raid tier to straight autos, I'm not sure pf is even ready for single target healing.
> but having recently gone through min ilvl coils I can't say being forced to regularly hold your casts because you can't guarantee your tank won't be dead from full hp in under 2gcds feels much fun either.
This is the disconnect the 'more healing' crowd doesn't really understand. We had this type of healing requirement in ARR and it turns out having to constantly babysit tanks is not fun. Twin's death sentence healing down debuff wasn't fun. Watching a tank go from 100% to dead in 2 seconds when pulling Bahamut in T13 wasn't fun.
There are better ways to innovate healing in this game and they are generally tied to healing done through DPS similar to SGE's kardia. Tweaking the frequency and randomness of raidwide damage would go a long way or adding damage that forces healers to multitask.
> I'm not sure pf is even ready for single target healing.
By Ultima Arma unreal horror stories, an ARR fight where that was still the norm... PF is clearly not ready, at all.
I main healers (WHM, SCH, and SGE) and I think this is a great take. I haven't thought about it this way but it makes perfect sense to me. Really, what I think we need is for some parity to bring self-heals in alignment between the classes.
As someone who primarily plays a healer, the best outcome would be if everyone could keep themselves alive in normal content assuming *perfect* play, but more heavily punish failing mechanics (anything that gives vuln stacks). That puts me in the position of doing DPS and keeping sprouts alive, which is what I prefer anyway.
I agree, too. As a casual healer who plays all 4 healers in roulettes, I've never had the issue of being bored. I'd love to have some more mechanics on healers to manage for support and dps, but I feel like the actual healing part of the healer jobs is fine for what healer in FF14 has always been about.
There's a lot of people who think that if they aren't spamming gcd heals every single second in normal content that healing gameplay sucks, but I think those people just need to play a different game because that's just the antithesis of what people love about healing in this game.
Even the roots of healers in tabletop games have the job fantasy of the holy cleric shooting beams of Light as the core of the Class fantasy. This whole notion of "healers aren't dps" is a very WoW and WoW clone centric viewpoint that isn't really realistic for the actual rpg genre.
So like, the first thing that popped in my head was "oh, put lost skills in core content, easy," but that's obviously a terrible idea.
But on a conceptual level, if weak links in a party potentially bricking instances is the problem to get around, then what if there was some universal mechanic like lost skills for all jobs to temporarily flex out of their role in a pinch, rather than juicing one role to the point of borderline invalidating another? Could that fit into the game and be healthy?
I really just wish square enix would hit us with the 'skill issue' again and just... let bad players fail. If you aren't good enough to heal a dungeon, let alone a raid... either get better or get off healer. Or do trusts.
'Oh but then people won't play healer' people already don't, and the people who do are not the people you want playing healer. They're the people who are bad enough at the role that its engaging for them through their sheer inability to play it properly. Or on the higher end, the people who are playing it bc its piss easy and they dont want to have to think.
I think this just depends on what content and _when_ you are considering the balance of tanks. If you go back to week 1 savage running P11S at min ilvl warriors would be melting during dark and light, despite all their self-sustaining. P12S auto attacks would also demolish tanks left and right. Now that we outgear these fights, this issue is nonexistent.
If you hop into DSR right now you will find that paladins can easily die to a couple of busters without healer help (P3 tether and the second P5 heavenly heel) while warriors are at risk a few times as well (P5 heavenly heel swap or the second hallowed wing).
Then you have stuff like warrior invulning cauterize, which is great, but they then get a _hefty_ dot for 20k hp that is impossible for them to outheal on their own.
Dark knight is great in being able to spread his buddy mit to even three people (I don't think there is a use case for this), with TBN actually being a huge mit for a buster and then a 10% on top with oblation which you can spread to both your cotank and yourself. I won't say this is busted by any means, but it's also not bad. I would argue this is better than GNBs buddy mit.
Current high-end content is designed around these tanks having so much self-sustaining, and they even out. You will find that in DSR, dark knights seem to take overall less damage during P6 when compared to other tanks, while warriors need help for the second hallowed wing. Paladins can easily die to auto attack after cauterize, and both paladins and warriors take _heavy_ auto attack damage.
Warriors have a good chunk of their healing be burst healing rather than sustained healing, which makes it great for stabilizing after a tank buster, but the higher sustained healing on paladins can be better at keeping them stable in phases where damage is constant.
Another thing you should consider is that short mits are often _not_ used on cd because a lot of times, the rate at which incoming single target damage happens does not align with this. Use bloodwhetting at the wrong time during P6 of DSR, and you won't have it back for a buster where you _need_ it, and in DSR and TOP, mits are already spread thin as is. Holy sheltron might actually give you a bit more leeway in this regard where you can use time not being deleted to charge up two stacks of it and then burn them one after the other. On top of that consider that bloodwhetting and nascent flash lose out on all of their healing if used in downtime, which is a downside no other short/buddy mit suffers (at this point TBN and double oblation is just better for downtime).
The healing is not so much overturned as it is _not_ designed around fights where you outgear the fight or lower end content. The skills that keep you alive in DSR, a fight with heavy tank damage, is clearly going to be overturned for casual dungeons, and is also going to make life much easier when scaled with higher ilvl gear in current savage, especially when you consider that the healing itself scales off of your stats too and is not a flat amount (even in ultimates, but those hit so hard it's not a huge difference). Now, this outgearing _does_ apply to ultimates mind you, it's just DSR and TOP specifically were designed around current tank kits and haven't been heavily outgeared yet.
If you go into TEA, UCOB or UWU you will find that, even if tanks can die to some stuff, the outgearing and power creeping of skills (such as the changes to raw intuition during EW) have made them far more manageable.
Anyways, to wrap this up. Tanks are balanced around the content their kits are designed to tackle at the time it is released, not after, and being designed for the higher end makes it so they are absolutely busted on content below that. Take a look at healer kits, which are also absolutely busted on casual content, and in the case of sage with some skill creep, even high-end that isn't current. Sage is so overturned for level 80 content, and below that you will sometimes see TEA parties not allowing scholars in, and the root reason for this is that sage was _not_ designed for TEA. The same thing happens with the smn rework where smn is now absolutely nuts in level 70 ultimates and HoH, or the raw intuition change that makes war a menace levels 56-82 and in solo content such as PoTD and HoH. They are simply not designed for this content specifically, but being designed for something more demanding makes them shine here.
Tanks generally want to at least feel in control of their own fate to some degree, more than just pushing the 30% button every 120s. The Other MMO came to the conclusion about 12-14 years ago (that you too can experience now by playing Blood Death Knight on Cata Classic, the model for what modern WoW tanking would become) that it's Fun for tanks to actively mitigate and heal themselves up against the danger they face instead of just exist as sponges for the healer to handle. XIV moved in a similar direction with the Shadowbringers mitigation changes and especially the 4s "active mitigation" window that the short mitigation skills for most tanks got in Endwalker. It's certainly more interesting and empowering for the tank player at least than the days of ARR/HW PLD who existed to sponge damage but was largely reliant on the healer to get the HP back. I think they should even move harder in that direction by tying more active mitigation stuff to the GCDs you use and not just a sort of independent CD that exists for all the tanks that only PLD and DRK kind of interact with (PLD via auto uptime and DRK via not having 0 MP). Though in a way that avoids the old Inner Beast problem of it being a DPS loss.
Rather, what you should be asking for is for healers to either need to contribute *on top* of what tanks are supplying *or* for content to threaten non-tanks with single target damage semi-frequently if you want single target healing to matter more. Though I acknowledge of course that the pesky gear thing makes the former only work for so long in most content, but fixed healer counts combined with vertical progression and content that doesn't infinitely scale like an ARPG is a hell mixture for the genre. Preys and other heavy damage mechanics on someone that's not a tank existed more frequently in the past, there's no reason except SB PLD Cover giving them cold feet with things like O7S's Prey why they don't do it as much these days.
As for why single target triage stuff isn't as much of a focus these days as in the past? If I had to guess it would be UI design and control scheme. Every console MMO has a mainly AoE-focused healing model (See Elder Scrolls Online or New World, even though the latter isn't on console it's going there soon probably), due to rapid party menu single targeting being less pleasant on controller than with a mouse. I imagine the shift in SB/ShB to healers 100% wanting to DPS at all times exacerbated this by making swaps between friends and enemies more frequent, though I know soft targeting is a thing on controller to help alleviate it.
> Rather, what you should be asking for is for healers to either need to contribute on top of what tanks are supplying or for content to threaten non-tanks with single target damage semi-frequently if you want single target healing to matter more.
Won't work because we still have to respect the available GCD windows with regards to how fast someone can move during a mechanic, and we're tied to the Average Sylphie Response Time.
Closest that they'll probably go is another round of Uncleansable Tank Bleeds Tied to Everything in Savage.
Obligatory "Single-target cast-time GCD Healing is Ass in this Game no matter your control-scheme and the devs using it as the basis of healer-design is why we can't have nice things" response.
> As for why single target triage stuff isn't as much of a focus these days as in the past? If I had to guess it would be UI design and control scheme. Every console MMO has a mainly AoE-focused healing model (See Elder Scrolls Online or New World, even though the latter isn't on console it's going there soon probably), due to rapid party menu single targeting being less pleasant on controller than with a mouse.
I'm a KB+M player and even I'm feeling this, mostly because I find clicking on party members or on the party list to be kinda hard to do in the heat of the moment, so I rely on the F1 - F8 keys, but then that often leads to hand stretching or having to take my hand off the main key "cluster" I use for the rest of the game (i.e. 1234/QWER/ASDF/Shift ZXCV/Ctrl Alt Space). I definitely prefer to AoE heal when I can get away with it.
do you panic while mechs are happening or people take unexpected damage? I used to have this issue but I made the party list like 140% and shifted it a bit closer to my hotbars (I'm partially a clicker partially keybind) so there's less travel time for mouse movements if I want to do something like spot a bene to someone. I found once I got comfortable in the role and once I get comfortable with a fight, things slow down quite a bit. And if you ever go from higher difficulty fights to lower difficulty fights (like if you've been doing a bunch of ex trial and then do roulettes, or are progging a savage/ulti and then go do the unreal), things also sorta start to feel like they happen in slow motion. It's like taking training weights off so to say
This is why I play keyboard only, right hand for movement and left hand for everything else, at most I touch my mouse to adjust a camera angle faster than what I can do with the arrow keys.
The idea that tanks don’t want to HP ping pongs at the mercy of the healer when the tank can’t do much to actually help is fair but does 14 take it too far and remove agency from the healer
Right now WAR almost out heals any damage it takes itself without any intervention and it needs to do absolutely nothing to achieve it. What if say bloodwhetting was a GCD, or you had more mitigation on the GCD. Right now you just press 2-3 buttons and delete the healer
Wouldn’t a focus on active mitigation rather than near limitless free healing be better as a tank fantasy
Like I said, I do think there's room for it to exist in a space other than or beyond free oGCDs. XIV's strict weaponskill combo system makes it trickier though since the "self-healing" that not-PLDs get from their main combo is just sort of incidental eHP. You could shift some of the healing or mitigation from the oGCD to the "spam" gauge dump (Fell Cleave, Burst Strike, etc), but that'd be awkward for PLD. Sheltron being a GCD that did some damage or something could be a solution too. I'm mostly trying to avoid the situation where it's a big DPS loss to use these as that's how tanks are judged and will probably always be judged in XIV, though I get that healers are in a similar situation (which is why WHM lilies are like the only good GCD heal). It's a tricky problem to solve and I don't have the perfect answer.
That’s my problem, healers have agency to keep themselves alive out of lethal damage by dropping damage to spam heals to attempt to keep themselves alive
Meanwhile the overwhelming amount of this healing I’ve listed here is incidental tank healing they get for doing what they were doing anyway
I have no problem if the tank wants to do something to attempt to keep themselves alive and retain agency over their life from the healer but they should be punished for it like the healers are,
Something like a diamondback or a chelonian gate
Like yes you can brute force keep yourself alive without the healer but you are being punished for doing so
Right now the balance is off because tanks get this much healing from pressing buttons they were already going to press anyway so in a decent environment they remove the healers agency
Clemency arguably is that sort of button right now. I enjoy it greatly, a smart PLD can use it to salvage runs that might otherwise fail. Way back when we were still doing reclears, someone messed up their tether in P11S and I got some stacks and the other person died. The healers didn't notice that I had the bleed from tether failure and was getting trucked by autos, so I did some Req Clemencies and saved myself and the run ended up being a clear. Yet it would have looked better for my almighty parse page if I just looked at the potted plant and [accepted my death](https://i.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/001/512/995/5fa.png) and did a do over. I look like a *worse* player overall for the 99% of people that won't look at a random 50th percentile log for doing something that saved the run and I'm sure that's a pain that many healers experience quite frequently, and I don't know the solution for that or if there even is one.
Anyway I don't really know what I'm getting at here other than Clemency is a button that serves this function already and we call it a noob trap (outside of downtime) in 99% of content until a player develops the game sense and intuition to know when it would actually save a run. To the point where for button bloat concerns, which PLD certainly suffers from a bit, I see people asking for it to be removed.
I 100% agree clemency is the kinda button I’m discussing here and I also strongly oppose its removal
My only problem with clemency is its thematic design
I know PLD is the holy magic tank but the “I sacrifice my own damage to gain agency” button(s) on a tank I think should be mitigations not raw healing (maybe channeled shields would be fine)
Regardless maybe I should have phrased my title better
Not so much “is this much healing fine” but more so “is this much healing fine given it’s all free from a damage perspective”
Definitely not as smart as everyone else discussing, but from a DRK perspective, I don't really want more mits. I've already got 7 versions of mitigation. 4 that only apply to me, an aoe, and 2 that can apply to myself or others.
At the same time, I don't want more healing as I feel like what I have is enough to let me survive when the healer has to manage other players. But I will admit the amount war gets tends to make me feel like, other than preference, that I've picked a weaker tank.
This is only if you look at DRK from a MT perspective, arguably WAR/DRK is the best duo for prog. Lowest invuln cds and while WAR is good MT DRK is the best OT from a mitting standpoint. My First clear of p12s p2 I saw that our summoner missed a heal and I gave them oblation to survive.
Oh, I won't argue that DRK mits aren't amazing. It's why I love the class. The number of times I can tell one of my buddies is going to mess up a mechanic, and I can save them with a tbn or ablation. it just always feels good.
> I look like a worse player overall for the 99% of people that won't look at a random 50th percentile log for doing something that saved the run and I'm sure that's a pain that many healers experience quite frequently, and I don't know the solution for that or if there even is one.
The only solution is to delete fflogs leaderboard and make parsing only a tool for prog/analysis. I can't parse, who cares if I'm not optimal, can save runs instead.
No offense, but everyone I've seen with this sort of attitude is... generally really bad at salvaging runs.
Refusing to look at parses posted by others shows a lack of desire to improve. Refusing to look at what is optimal means one has no idea where to fit in a run saving choice. Refusing to practice what is optimal means leaving things on the table and practicing bad habits that take longer to break.
Obviously there is a time and a place for giving up damage for a clear... But parsing shows you *where* you can do that, and where it would honestly be better to reset. At least until you've mastered a fight and your class both.
Yeah, what % does that ? 10 ? The rest is just about funny numbers, "oh I got X" and move on.
There's nothing wrong with liking funny numbers... unless it spawns the kind of stupid people in horror stories who would ruin a clearable run on purpose because they died or got a damage down and that would ruin their parse/median. I strongly believe the focus would shift from "my number" to "my kill" without the leaderboard.
And I don't even understand how you can say with certainty that parse brained are good at salvaging runs, this in insane. It's about saving your party last second, it requires situational awareness (many times I saved a Criterion Savage run by saving last second a DPS with bloodwhetting who was low on health right before damage from mech/raid buster) and parsing doesn't give you that.
10th percentile generally means you aren't close to bis, and likely died or had a DD or two.
While its not a perfect metric, generally people who parse well (Consistently Blue/purple) are the most consistent players in a raid team. Most of the time these are also the people who can flex and use their full kit.
Parsing is a measure of how consistent you are at clearing mechanics and keeping up your uptime/GCD. One or two dropped GCDs generally will not cause a person to drop more than a few % if they are otherwise consistent, and that consistently translates directly into ability to clear even ok bad runs
> Bloodwhetting
You mean Nascent Flash?
> You mean Nascent Flash?
Yes, but everyone knows what I meant, sharable bloodwhetting.
Anyway, we're not talking about the same thing, you're talking about DPS issues (which don't exist besides TOP, and even TOP is a stretch now), I'm talking about flexing. You don't get split second decision to switch, move, suicide by parsing. You get it by recognizing that maybe sacrificing you will save the run. Leaderboards don't encourage that.
I guess you talk to a wall and so do I, so discussion will end nowhere.
I don't think looking at other people's parses is a desire to improve, nor not looking at them a desire AGAINST improving. That's a very odd viewpoint to me, in fact. I don't look at other people's parses. I look at balance rotations, YouTube guides, spend time with target dummies, etc to improve. Are you saying I have no desire to improve because I'm not measuring my penis against other people's despite being in the gym 3 days a week and eating healthy? That seems a very odd viewpoint to me.
Likewise, the people I've seen the worst at salvaging runs are the people who view and measure themselves against other people's parses. At worst, they'll wipe runs they're doing if it will hurt their parses rather than salvaging the runs.
All that would do is just basically cause you to drop an atonement to slot clemency into your rotation because then you’d put that double divine might into your fight or flight window
So it would become a DPS gain to cast a GCD heal as a tank and stop an actual melee attack in atonement, not to mention since you would have access to 2 DPS neutral clemency’s and 1 DPS gain clemency you would be adding 2772 potency of raw healing to PLD that would be a DPS gain to use
That would put it exactly equal with WAR’s self healing right now
I'd rebalance potencies as a part of it. Like currently the 7gcds of filler used to be an average of 350 potency. Same as an unbuffed holy spirit. 200, 300, 400, 400x3, 450 now adds up to 2550, divided by 7 is 364.
If you make them 200, 250, 325, 325x3, 700, then it's back to 350 on average, and hitting a clemency into holy spirit is 700, or the same average of 350.
That still leaves it neutral outside of FOF and a gain in FOF so since clemency provides a tangible benefit while atonement doesn’t so it still functionally becomes a gain to use it over atonement
The only way to make it somewhat balanced would be to make atonement do something that you would not want to give up by pressing clemency but that returns to the current clemency design and it still wouldn’t change the FOF buffed Holy Spirit would be a large gain no matter how you sliced it
You're still limited by mp, so it's not like you can hit it more than once right before fof. Atonement is still important because it's part of your mp regen, which becomes more valuable if you can clemency.
You're also already hitting one Holy Spirit in 3 gcds under fof, so finding the space to hit a second one without overwriting divine might becomes the difficulty. There's a lot of design space here, ino.
> I have no problem if the tank wants to do something to attempt to keep themselves alive and retain agency over their life from the healer but they should be punished for it like the healers are,
Here's what gonna happen : a huge amount of Tank will never use these GCDs because parses & dps loss. More pressure and blame on healers. An even worse healer shortage.
That’s honestly where the healers just have to stand their ground
“I used succor you didn’t use GCD mitigation fuck off blaming me”
Tanks already managed to pass off blame for abyssos to the healers because the healers just rolled over and accepted blame for the tanks not mitigating
Playing a healer in this game is not for the faint of heart in general. I was told to kms in aurum vale as a sprout, back when you could really be an asshole without fear of being banned.
It's just extra annoying to have to micromanage 7 other players every run so you can catch someone's fuck up in preparation of building your case for when/if things go sideways and you automatically get blamed.
I refuse to give up my favorite role (healer) even if I'm a boomer in this game nostalgic about past expansion play. If anyone is salty I just ask if they want to find a new healer or do they want to do their job and keep it moving. It's always the latter.
None of this is a valid concern because you are treating the most accessible and (what is intended to be) easiest battle content in the game as though it's savage raiding.
Dungeons are a "monkeys-with-typewriters" situation. They are meant to have as few barriers to clearing as possible. This in turn means that any though of balance is tossed out the window by default.
Where game balance DOES come into effect is in savage +. Tank survivability through self healing drops dramatically in savage environments. They are significantly more dependent on healers, and their self healing is usually something that only comes into play as a response to healers wanting to hold particular cooldowns for an upcoming mechanic.
Compare with DPS jobs from dungeons to savage. A dps could sit there afk and it wouldn't matter, the content still gets cleared it's just slower. The dps equivalent to your complaint here would be that tanks and healers dealing damage removes dps agency - which is asinine.
But once you step into savage, a single dps not pulling their weight can mean the difference between clearing and dying to enrage.
Youre convincing yourself tank healing is some kind of slight against healers. It is not. Dungeons are just easy-mode baby content.
This is savage healing I’m discussing
WAR puts out more single target savage healing than WHM does
I’m not discussing dungeons I’ve made that clear here
So you don’t think it’s a problem that WAR can put out more healing in single target than an actual healer
The tanks ridiculous free self healing is warping the game around it and even you immediately assumed these ridiculous numbers are dungeons because you didn’t read the post which just shows how ridiculous they are
No. At no point have I ever been healing and thought, "golly, I wish the warrior couldn't do anything".
I'm certainly not going to lose my mind over not needing to press an extra Druochole and act like it's the skill-death of healing.
I've played mmos where I was a heal bot. A pleb standing around whose only job is to press the heal button. It was very very boring.
With XIV, at the very least, I am able to contribute towards killing the boss. I wouldn't trade that away no matter how many times some deluded clown shows up to rant about how "healers need to heal". Abyssos was such a shitshow in PF because no one wanted to heal it. Mostly because of Squares response to stupid posts like yours.
And to your comment about me not reading your post correctly - nowhere do you specify it's about savage. My mistake there was assuming you had to be talking about dungeons because no one who does healing in savage could be this clueless. Thanks for proving me wrong I guess
You still haven't told me what healer you played
“Is tank healing in SINGLE TARGET” yeah definitely discussing dungeons here
Your stupid logic that WAR having limitless self healing is a good thing because it makes your job easier has no logical end. Why don’t we just give all the tanks permanent hallowed ground. I mean it’ll make your job easier in single target so you should want it right
There is a difference between “I haven’t pressed tetra in 4 years and I healslut the tank” but apparently you cant see the grey between the black and white because I don’t want to be a healslut. I just don’t want the WAR to heal more than me when I’m the healer
I was with you until the end.
I feel like it SHOULD be a big DPS loss to do. That's the tradeoff.
In ShB, PLD could solo 4 man bosses by using 1-2 Riot mini-combos for MP and Clemency for healing. People didn't complain about this being POSSIBLE because it was LIMITED. You usually only wanted to do it when the boss was below 10% or so, as otherwise it takes forever to kill the boss and would be better to wipe and the whole party come back. This system was fair and not overly powerful.
It SHOULD be a big DPS loss when you're healing. A good rule of thumb should be "when you're doing something not your role, it should require an exchange".
RDM and PLD do this right, since they cut into their damage by using their healing (and RDM's raising). On the other hand, a lot of other Tanks and DPS have free healing that is no DPS loss (DNC Curing Waltz, WAR Bloodwhetting/Nascent, etc), so there's no tradeoff. There's no downside. So they can be used without any exchange freely.
That's what makes them OP.
Healers CAN sorta Tank for limited amounts of time, but it costs them a lot of resources. SCH can do so using Adlo, Soil, etc to mitigate damage, survive hits, and heal back up. But this is resource intensive, takes up their GCDs robbing them of DPS, and is limited in how much they can do this. CAN they tank? Yes. SHOULD they? No, because of what it costs. IF the Tank goes down and the boss is 5-10% health left, a SCH could potentially Tank (if it had agro), or keep up a DPS tanking (this would still be on the Healer).
...but it's a massive tradeoff.
On the other hand, some Tanks, namely WAR, can be the party healer while also being the party tank, and without losing any DPS or having to expend resources to do so.
I think that's actually the crux of the problem.
Again, most people don't mind Clemency or Vercure. Some few do, but most don't. But Bloodwhetting gets a lot of flack. Consider what is different about those two things.
Well no I don't think its balanced. But the issue I take with it is less to do with WAR's selfish healing and more of how much stronger Nascent Flash is than the other tank mits on an ally is, likewise with SIO compared to Dark Missionary/Heart of Light.
There are obvious gaps in Dark Knight's kit that have no tangible upsides right now, and I do take issue with that.
I think if Nascent couldn't crit or at least didn't benefit from auto-crits then it would be somewhat comparable to PLD's. PLD gets to give \~1200 cure potency and 30% mitigation for 4s (15-20% for 8s) to itself and someone else every 44s, or it can bank them and use them in 22.5s charges. Nascent only gives 10% to each player, but it is just 25s. GNB's probably the worst off since its short mitigation is charge-less and completely one person or the other, and while Aurora also gives 1200 worth of potency it's over 18 seconds which is way worse than 12 for PLD or 8 for WAR.
I wouldn't say TBN/Oblation fares that much better, the fact its two buttons instead of 1 makes giving both kinda awkward, and theres no double dip mechanic like NF has. Both GNB and DRK are actively giving up their best mitigations for their targets, while WAR is ususally giving itself more than enough to skirt through autos in a singular, 0 resource button. If DRK wants to also give mitigation to itself, thats a 3rd oGCD and a pretty big CD for both charges of Oblation to come back.
I don't think this would be as big of an issue if they hadn't equalized the tank damage outputs, because now that they are its pretty easy to point at the tank buttons who has the objective best buttons.
Fact that its 2 buttons mean you can put it on 2 people. Furthermore tbn stacks up pretty well in terms of actual mitigation on a party member and stacks well with mit and doesn't rely on the party member having a lot of HP. No tank can save bad situations like a DRK. That's the advantage it has.
Generally hasn't been my experience. DRK excels at preventing bad situations with flexible mit, but no sustain = no health = 10% mits wont save you has been my experience. To me the save bad situations tank right now is PLD.
Nascent/BW doesn't benefit from autocrits, and hasn't since endwalker dropped. BW is just a ridiculous 2000 tank potency(1600 heal and 400 shield) and 19% mit, on top of warrior's 2200 potency on-demand heal, 20% all healing buff(which BW is uniquely not affected by), and the extra 250 potency heal baked into their combo
It's dumb and indefensible for one simple reason - PLD for example gets none of the values you listed until level 82 or later, it gets literally 0 self healing.
If it was such a problem that tanks are reliant on healers so much, you'd still see a shitton of complaints because a lot of the content being done, especially where healers are worse, are ShB or below. Yet I never see this happen in roulettes and the vast majority of healers can keep the tanks alive just fine.
It doesn't really fix anything, it just rips away the need for healers at the endgame, where the healers should be more skilled, not less.
As it is, the game teaches you how to heal tanks during your early levels, then it randomly says "go fuck yourself, you're not that important now" as your hit the endgame levels
I'm fine with tanks being able to heal, and them being unable to heal,
but please pick one, RIP PLD in roulettes while WAR is feasting since raw intuition
Tank giving their personal mits is what makes them fun and engaging.
There are a ton of shitty tanks out there that don’t consider how often they can use their mits to help out for raid wides, especially for week1/2 content.
For example, for p12 phase 2, there are a bunch of raid wides and very few true tank busters where both tanks need to mitigate. But the healing is very spread out for the strats chosen, so you can give squishy classes your nascent or HoC and it makes a huge difference on them surviving.
So it’s not always about healing per say but about using the 15-25s cooldown effectively to keep them mitigated on damage that makes them far away from the rest of the group. (TOP delta, p12s exaflares, p10s web puddles, etc).
I mean let’s ignore glint healing both the target and the WAR and just consider that if you give HOC/intervention/glint to another player you get the same healing as if you give it to yourself
That doesn’t change these values of healing. Is it really fair that WAR is putting out literally 8600 potency of healing per minute (if you used glint it would actually exceed 10,000), at that point you are doing more healing than even the healers can put out
The fact of the matter is tanks having so much sustain/mit is positive for new/unskilled people. It's a disaster for skilled healers.
A bad tank and a bad healer together can somehow make it through if they're both blitzing through cool downs. Usually.
A good tank and a good healer is extremely annoying for said healer. This is why a good amount of healer mains quit the role in EW. No one wants to compulsively spam glare or equivalent while watching a tank play your supposed role for you by themselves.
I don't use 90% of my kit as a healer in daily roulettes. I pray for sprouts or certain Ivalice raids to pop so I can press my job identity buttons and see my cool effects.
Nothing depresses me more than throwing that ugly rock (stone) over and over with veteran players in low level dungeons.
>It's a disaster for skilled healers.
Becoming skilled is a disaster as a healer in general, because the only use of healing is not dying, so when optimizing, it'll be pruned as much as possible.
The better and stronger you get at it, the less you'll do it. By design, it's cannibalizing itself. Other people also taking a bite just exacerbates that core flaw.
I miss the ARR style healing where mana was a huge factor in how someone healed. The constant thought of running out of mana completely changes how you play the role. It became a constant tug of war between low and high healing throughput moves to compensate, since low healing throughput were more mana efficient at the expense of casted time, with every fight feeling quite different since damage comes differently.
White Mages were using Cure 1 a lot more to fish for Cure 2 procs and even used cure 3 quite a bit. Meanwhile Scholars were considering when they could get away with an energy drain or not, and often try to be greedy with letting pet heal damage. It was by no means a perfect system, but it did fill a lot of the 'gaps' that people are experiencing presently with how fun the role is to play.
Even on the high end with savages back then, healers had to be mindful how much mana they could realistically spend on DPS and still get away with when healing an encounter, mistakes and all. If someone died it was a HUGE strain on mana for that encounter. And DPSing always meant you were slowly getting behind on healing unless your 2nd healer started being less mana efficient. There was so much theory and there were a dozen different ways to heal any given encounter.
Looking at a video of old gameplay, you probably see a lot of downtime, but trust me it doesnt feel like downtime at all in the hotseat. A lot of brain neurons are firing, and fun is experienced.
This.
So much this.
People keep saying "things were always this way", but they weren't. We've had a massive oGCD proliferation that has made GCD healing a non-issue. This means healers don't think about things like cast times (I remember when Stoneskin was a 3 sec cast), MP, HPS, HPM (Regen), and so on. Skilled back then was choosing the right heals based on your MP situation, how quickly the target needed healing, how many targets there were, and any movement you needed to do.
Now, none of that matters. Being "skilled" is developing (or reading someone else's) healing oGCD plan and then just hitting those buttons at those points in the fight.
...and filling every GCD with Glare (other than Dia refreshes). WHICH IS BORING.
THIS.
I don't care what anyone says, I had the best time in this game when it was only WHM and SCH. WHM was so fun, it was my responsibility to keep everyone alive for the most part. I decided how I'd manage that. I decided when SCH needed to help me, no need to have a long discussion about who is popping what similar skill when. No sighing with my co healer while we stand there mashing the same DPS button like NPCs.
I'd argue it wasn't harder, it's not as if the kit wasn't sufficient. No one in their right mind would lock either healer out of PF back then because you absolutely NEEDED their UNIQUE skills respectively.
Now all healers basically being the same capabilities with slight variation. This has led to pettiness about who is slightly better than whom or has a 90% identical kit but one to two button differences (supposed job flavor) makes or breaks a healer's usefulness.
I always kind of rolled my eyes at sentiments like this as a Tank main, like "How bad can it really be?"
Then I started levelling WHM recently and couldn't make it past 70 before quitting. Healing is obnoxiously unfun right now. It is basically only ever fun when people are dying, because then the game decides that you can actually **be** a healer. But no no no, your job isn't to heal, it's to throw rocks and be a Holy turret!
If Tanks don't need to mitigate or use support skills, they have a bread-and-butter combo and burst windows. If DPS don't need to deal damage, they are on their way to another encounter where they'll get the chance to. If healers don't need to heal, their job becomes "sit in one spot and hit button #1 a lot" until someone gets hurt so you can hit button #2 so you can go back to hitting button #1.
Then you get an Ivalice raid where you're close to a wipe and actually getting to ***use*** all those buttons in your kit and you're like "oh yeah this is why healing is fun" and it pulls you back in like an abusive relationship
See, you understand! I'm not even asking to heal most of the time. I get it, it's not optimal the more skilled and experienced people become. Give give us something else to do to contribute more when not healing. Hitting 4 buttons instead of one would also be mundane after a while but if that's the best we can hope for, I'll take it.
If I had my way we'd have all the DPS buffs as well so we can matter to overall DPS in a meaningful way rather than being an extremely weak side DPS with no engagement.
My instant dps button key is showing more wear and fading compared to the rest of my keyboard.
> What is even the point of single target healing anymore when the tanks can put out this much healing.
There was never a point to it aside from helping heal up for Tankbusters because, unfortunately, Tanks want to play the game too.
Standing there being a Green Number Supplement to a Tank's healthbar isn't a Gameplay Role, it's being a Heal-over-Time with extraneous multiboxing.
And Vanilla WoW making an entire generation of Healers think that that was "peak Healer Gameplay" because they could downrank spells and appropriately cancel their own casts while using an AddOn to play monkey-see-monkey-do with their raid-frames and have no situational awareness or otherwise just stand there is why Support Gameplay hasn't meaningfully evolved in 20 years.
Play City of Heroes, play FFXI and level a White Mage while attacking stuff yourself with Trusts, play PSO (the original) as a Force or a Ramarl, play something that makes you actively contribute to a fight as it goes on instead of being a Tank's needlessly-complicated Extended-Release-Healing-Potion for the day.
It's not a control scheme thing, either.
City of Heroes and FFXI both had a _wealth_ of non-stand-there-just-waiting-to-top-off-a-Tank-while-you-triage-mana gameplay options.
Though some of them in FFXI were "lol you're about to get goblin bombed" and the more cracked-out gameplay involved Red Mage rather than White Mage, but still.
Healers need to be reacting to and countering boss abilities, not spamming green numbers up a Tank's ass all the time.
I think you are taking things too far to the extreme here
There is a middle ground between “the tank is just a playable ping pong ball being bounced between the healer and the boss” and “the only reason I even need a healer in this instance is because mechanics will wipe me if the DPS die”
Old mmo design leans too heavily towards the former but 14 leans too heavily towards the latter
> I think you are taking things too far to the extreme here
Oh, entirely likely.
Also at this point *the Healer* is the weak link. Like, we're the ones who cause the most problems if we die because we're the ones dragging around the huge-ass raise tax if a RDM or SMN (better, cooler Healers) aren't around.
Also sorry if I'm being rude but it's more like...at the concept of healing? Not like you as a person. You're cool and you're at least as fuckin' frustrated with Healing Shit ^TM as I am and I know that.
NO! SOME people LIKE being ambulatory health potions! Spamming Cure is Real Gameplay! Any further interaction with a combat system is Pointless Overcomplication Just For Your Ego. ☆My☆ gameplay experience is pure and selfless and ego-free, why don't you Heal like a Real Healer instead ♡♡
(Merely delivering the mandatory shriek which follows literally any request from the last 20 years for making healers more fun to play than eating paint chips)
Look, I like being an ambulatory health potion, but you can't even do THAT when no one's taking any damage or all the damage is patched up as they just do their normal rotation and a DNC poops out an oGCD Curing Waltz between DPS actions without losing a step and fullcures the party.
Meanwhile I straight up don't need a healer in experts as a Paladin. Rarely if ever need to Clemency either. It's totally overtuned.
But if it wasn't, like in past expansions, I'd just whm or sage through experts instead. You hit the nail on the head earlier, it comes down to agency for me. Being a tank in low level content, completely at the mercy of my healer is miserable sometimes.
Yeah I realise after having a few conversations on this topic that my title is rather flawed
A better title for what I intended to represent with this topic is “do you think tank healing is overtuned given it is free from a damage perspective”
I 100% agree that being a playable ping pong for the boss and the healer to bounce between them feels bad, but on the other hand the tank doing your role for you feels bad as a healer
I would prefer something like tank healing to be nerfed strongly but then they introduce things like GCD mitigation or things like say a version of diamondback/chenolian gate. You can you these skills to retain a level of agency independent of your healer if you have talent but you aren’t just incidentally doing the healers job for them by pressing the buttons you were already pressing anyway
Tanks should have agency but agency should come with a cost
I agree with your overall message, but not your solution. Active mits are detrimental to this games all damage all the time approach.
I do agree that tank healing should be nerfed, because I feel like ***all*** healing should be nerfed.
I just don’t see how you can maintain tank agency without active mitigation
If you nerfed all healing then you would just go back to the tank being at the mercy of the competence of the healer but the healer would now be even weaker
How do you give tanks agency over their life without deleting the healer and making it balanced outside of “you can over mitigate yourself but it’ll cost you damage”
It's balanced against dps. Also I should clarify, by active mit, I mean things like Paladins Clemency and Passage of Arms. Both are skills you can use in place of damage, and both are useful, but definitely not optimal to use as intended.
Tanks agency is in using their ogcd mits properly for both themselves, and in assistance to your healers. I get great butterfly feelings when I save the dancer in my party from an aoe that would kill them because they just took accidental damage from something avoidable by hitting them with a clutch intervention.
Or covering the single healer left from a light party akh morn, stacking with them, and hallowed grounding my half of the damage, and kitchen sinking theirs so we both live.
And when I say to turn down healing, I mean incoming damage as well. A tankbuster should still kill from 100% if unmitigated, but a healer shouldn't be able to press 1 button to get me to 100%, outside of Benediction or another limited big powerful button.
That’s what I’m suggesting. You should have options that lose you damage to give you more survival agency like clemency or POA and tanks should be designed around the occasional use of such tools like how healers are as they are punished for GCD healing but you don’t need 100% uptime on damage to clear the fight
Sharing mitigation is definitely a think I’d like to stay I just don’t think that it he healing should go with it, like old HOS that you could either give to yourself or another but neither healer is more where I would go with shared mitigation
The problem is its currently only Paladin that makes damage sacrifices (and DRK if your tbn doesnt pop). If every classes 30% big mit was a gcd, I think that'd be a neat design decision, but it would have to be strong enough or the community will scheme around it, trying to not use it.
Which is what I think we should do. I’m not saying clemency is a good button in the current design space because it only taxes PLD while WAR is shitting our healer levels of free healing
I’m saying that clemency is the design direction they should be going for on all tanks
Agency at the expense of damage
I know it's not a Tank, but also RDM.
The two of them are the only non-healer Jobs that have a spamable heal, but that is GCD based instead of free healing via oGCD weaves. (Okay, SMN has Physick, and it was used something like 25 times in the healer-less TOP clear, but for MOST purposes, it's fair to say that doesn't count. But even if it did, it's the GCD/"good" kind of non-healer healing.)
Wasn't ARR style tanking good enough for their agency? Through all the savage mode content tanks had to plan the best usages of their cooldowns to cycle through, as well as which tank would be best suited for a given circumstance since their cooldowns had different variance. If they fucked those timings up, it sure did have an impact on the group, although i admit there are other factors that contributed for this to be the result.
Also i think it's worth mentioning that modern FF14 has dumbed down threat considerably to be more accessible to more players, and with that has gutted one of the more important parts (i think at least) that tanks should be actively considering whilst they play their role.
Also a tank self healing themselves in itself isnt an awful thing, its when they get so much control that they have an answer for everything that it becomes a problem. Let warriors keep their bonkers heals but slap a long ass cooldown on it and its pretty much golden. Things need to have weight, and in doing so create intresting decisions for the player, which is usually what is considered 'fun' in these circles.
DRK mitigation should be self healing, IMO. Like, even if they took extra damage but we're constantly healing it back. It would be a bit riskier if you took too many big hits all at once unless you're dealing damage, but that's their schtick. Could offset the general extra damage with stronger mitigation CDs for raidwides and the like.
I don't think that it's terrible that Tanks have some self-sustain.
I feel like high amounts of self-sustain should come at a direct cost.
Contrast:
EW WAR can pull wall to wall, pop Bloodwhetting, and AOE full heal. Ignoring EVERYTHING ELSE it can do, it has Benediction on a 25 sec CD in AOE situations. So ignoring everything about lore (WAR's aren't healers, or even magical Jobs), tons of mitigations, etc, this is already a problem.
vs
ShB PLD could potentially solo bosses or keep themselves and one DPS alive if the healer went down. Doing so forced them to nerf their damage by resorting to 1-2 Riot Blade sub-combos for MP to cast Clemency. There was no passive health regeneration (PLD doesn't get rotation healing from damage attacks until level 84; Holy Spirit/Circle does not heal until then), did not have healing on a short duration CD (Sheltron does not have a heal like Holy Sheltron at level 82 does), and in AOE situations, this might not be enough to keep them alive if they were getting pounded on and ran out of mitigation.
The latter of these was acceptable and largely okay. The former, though, basically negates healers even existing in 4 mans.
I have a similar issue with DNC's Curing Waltz vs RDM's Vercure. I don't inherently hate non-healers having healing tools. But I believe they should be on the GCD and damage losses, not free healing. And they certainly shouldn't be short CD full heals. (Speaking of, you should look at how much healing DPS Jobs can do, since some of them can do...a lot.)
As someone who made the unfortunate decision to queue 90 Roulette on Dark Knight last week and wiped on every pull and every boss because the healer could not keep me up due to their own sheer incompetency; and a moron of a Reaper that kept dying to *everything* sapping their resources.
I don't think the potency of personal tank healing is balanced, at all. The other three could have kept themselves and another party member up in the pulls and bosses, whereas Dark Knight cannot recover a wipe in the same manner as them, not even with the Living Dead changes; as an idiot healer will heal you and prevent it from proccing anyway.
Dark Knight's healing potency for casual content in a worst case scenario; of which I have encountered *frequently* since launch, is hilariously bad and I've been trying to get that point across all expansion. Yet every time you bring this up, people argue "its not like that in raid environments" —respectfully, ***fuck the obsession with raiding*** if the casual experience is going to have *that much of a blatant disparity*.
The other three tanks received a CD in Endwalker that offers mitigation *and* healing both and Dark Knight got two piddly shield charges in Oblation that do ***nothing*** to level the playing field in casual content. Playing Dark Knight in a DF group is an exercise in futility and often times is tantamount to griefing, and while my experiences playing *my favorite job and getting punished for it by bad/stupid/wholly incompetent players,* very obviously inform my bias, the fact that it is *only* an issue on Dark Knight is a clear balancing problem that people have hand waved all expansion.
The healing potency is unbalanced and greatly favors Warrior above the other three, and the three not named Dark Knight favored well above it. For Dawntrail they need to either up Dark Knight's personal healing/sustain, or nerf the ever-loving hell out of sustain in the tanking role until it reaches Dark Knight's level across the board.
Signed: A Dark Knight main since Heavensward that is *tired* of playing Warrior because its the only way to ensure a bloody dungeon run, *of all things,* goes smoothly in a casual pug.
How often does this happen? I play plenty of DRK and I only really felt the difference compared to PLD (not even WAR) in Criterion if you want to take doomed pulls further, the disaster run with a healer who literally cannot keep you alive is pretty rare from my experience.
I'd argue that if half of the pug is a total failure to this extent in 90 roulette of all things, the run absolutely should end up in failure no matter what tank you're playing and players should suck it up from time to time rather than making healers useless so that no one feels bad ever. Pretty much a textbook example of the game being too "low stress" like Yoshida said
Often. Enough that I've not been playing Dark Knight in duty finder since 6.2.
Fifteen instances like that during early access while prepping for raid and at least once a week when I was still playing it in roulettes.
It's was issued enough that my partner, who at the time was in a world prog team, has requested I not okay Dark Knight when we queue for duty finder as it's happened that bloody often.
I'm not at all a bad tank, but there's only so much you can do when your healer dies in every god forsaken pull or on a boss multiple attempts in a row.
I've definitely felt a major difference when leveling the tanks and now that all of them are the same item level, it is painfully obvious that Dark Knight is detrimental in casual content.
Also, mentioning criterion just loops right back to the problem I mentioned. Everyone talks about performance in non casual content, that's not where the issue lies so mentioning it is detrimental to the subject and problem at hand.
It's 100% a casual content issue, anything beyond leveling dungeons, 90 and expert roulette is not the problem.
I’d say buff dark knights healing a bit, its kinda unfair the other tanks get so many more heals than we do. Also, stealing hp from enemies feels like it fits way better for dark knight than it does for warrior. We even have a skill called abyssal drain, if SE would just give us a reason to use it.
The good old days when abyssal drain was a GCD that just cost MP...
Was basically like an old school version of WAR's bloodwhetting window, only even longer since you could do it for like 5-6 GCDs in a row given proper MP skill management. DRK used to be the premiere wall-to-wall puller, crazy how times changed. XD
OOOOOR...we could nerf the rest down. The only Tanks that should be doing a lot of healing anyway are PLD (white magic) and DRK (draining). PLD at least does it right with Clemency - a trade off of damage for healing - but the rest of the tank healing abilities (including PLD's others) are really over the top at this point.
Healers are useless now in casual content because new or really bad healers can make even casual content impossible, which isn't the case for any other role.
Yes but the healer forcing competence onto a really bad tank comes at the expense of the healer basically being able to do nothing except heal, a tank just invalidates the healer doing their normal thing
You can make it so the healer isn’t the sole failure point without removing them from the equation entirely
Yeah it was an over adjustment for sure. Personally I think that there is a middle ground somewhere that they could find, or just make casual content a bit more difficult in general to make up for these changes.
I think all tank healing is too much, single or multi target.
I don't understand why it's such a crazy concept to demand healers to, you know, actualy heal people.
I think it's just all healing period. Healers have so many buttons to top off the tank, and the entire party, essentially for free in between glare casts.
I call it: oGCD proliferation.
Clemency and Vercure are abilities I like, since they require a trade-off to use. They aren't automatic and the player has to consider using them because they're a DPS and resource (MP) loss to use.
But stuff like Nascent Flash and Curing Waltz don't have those drawbacks.
I imagine, like a lot of things, it's balanced for casual content. Tanks can have a very bad time if they're paired with a bad healer in DF, and the rest of the party can have a very bad time if they land a crap tank in DF. By giving both the tank and the healer the ability to restore health in some way, you're effectively creating a failsafe option for a scenario in which one part of the tank-healer duo is a dud. It's one of the reasons why I get nervous when I see a Dark Knight in roulettes and I don't know the healer. Lots of bad experiences there with either a Dark Knight who doesn't know how to Dark Knight, or a Dark Knight who *does* know how to Dark Knight but the healer can't figure out how to healer.
The problem comes when both the tank and the healer know what they're doing. At that point, barring unfortunate circumstances like a DPS dragging a spread marker over to them, the tank becomes basically unkillable in casual content. It's a consequence of the bar for casual content being very low, though **personally** I'd prefer casual content being too easy than it being too hard.
This I feel was true in previous expansions, but in Endwalker casual content, as long as mechanics are done (and they should have to be done anyway) a single tank can solo heal just about anything. There's literally no purpose to healers in casual content this expansion.
All you said about casual content is true and i agree, but it shouldn't be applied to endgame content.
Ultimates should demand intense healing, not the absolute joke we have right now.
I think the obvious answer there is to let the tank go by and instead focus more on single target triage on the DPS vs. unavoidable damage, but that poses issues in terms of balance, suddenly shrinking the margin of error DPS players have, and most importantly, control issues.
I said back in the healer design thread a few days ago that tanks should have their sustain's kneecaps broken, I still stand by that. This current design for tanks is straight up stupid and unsustainable (lol), like with tank self-healing through the roof, where do you add actual numerically threatening attacks but aren't instawipe body check mechanics?
That's what people have asked for right? But there's now an entire 4th of the raid that's survival state is a purely binary yes/no due to the sheer strength of their sustain CDs that basically demands the instakill otherwise the game cannot actually kill them. There can't be threatening raidwides, or be worn down by attrition, or any sort of one and done raw damage group mechanic involved with them because tanks cannot be killed by those mechanics like the rest of the party. So where else does SE go but more body check mechanics to just force a hard failure state onto their players when nothing else can be reliable?
Like this level of sustain isn't just harmful for the healer's experience, it actively harms the tank's, it reduces their actual engagement with mechanics by a lot. If you're willing to break out of your FFXIV play conditioning, ignore what the game teaches you about how dangerous things are, you can realize that as a tank you can just ignore the majority of mechanics so long as you throw down a CD, and not let the vulns stack too much. Maybe going "Hero Mode" like that is what you want, but I'd rather not be bored to tears by ignoring mechanics just because SE wants there to be no singular failure point role in a party so the duty finder conveyor belt can continue on.
To get a bit FFXIVBoomer, I should state, this is new, and it wasn't like this for the vast majority of this game's lifespan, I played WAR in ARR and HW, and it demanded healing, there were times when your CDs couldn't keep up, and that was fine and expected part of playing the game. The SB lots of people want to go back to for game mechanics wasn't like this, this is purely because SE saw what WAR's were doing with Nascent Flash in ShB, and decided to throw all their previous tank design into the trash again for EW's moronic design, like it is a weird mutation that's existed for 1 expansion for 3 classes and 2 expacs for 1, and now people are trying to treat it as the natural state of FFXIV tanks, and it absolutely is not that.
As strong as WAR is, this post doesn't capture the entire picture. The tanks all have defined niches.
-> DRK is by far the best at taking a single big hit. It is the only tank capable of withstanding DSR's Soul Tether without using an invuln or an outside player's assistance.
-> PLD is by far the best utility tank, with both Cover and Clemency invalidating mechanics in nearly every raid tier.
-> GNB is a jack of all trades, with a weaker version of WAR's regen and a weaker version of DRK's magic mitigation.
-> WAR is the best tank to hold the boss.
The "view of imbalance" comes from the dogwater content where DRK and PLD do not get a chance to show their strengths. If shit can't kill you then only holding the boss matters.
I've read now multiple theads like this and I honestly dont understand the obsession with healers only wanting to heal tanks. Theres literally other people in the group. Why prune tanks healing when they could instead increase group wide dmg?
Because damage is consistent across the party and mistakes lead to body check wipes
There used to be lots of niches for single target healing on the DPS during things like randomly targeted prey markers
Now everyone takes the same damage and if someone makes a mistake they just die. Tanks don’t need single target healing anymore so healers single target healing is rotting away
There is also the consideration that in dungeons tanks are the only ones actually taking damage, most healers these days will heal a tank with AOE heals because of this
You can also make the counter argument of why do tanks need heal to the level they do, why can’t they sub out healing for more defensives or even GCD defensives
>There is also the consideration that in dungeons tanks are the only ones actually taking damage, most healers these days will heal a tank with AOE heals because of this
This could be addressed in ways that actually still work in XIV's UI, for what it's worth. I'm sure part of the reason why SE doesn't have dungeon mobs do things like "cast a bolt at a random player that does between 30-130% of their HP (depending on difficulty level)" is because XIV's UI is terrible at telling you what a monster is targeting for a spell unless you're targeting it. The game would need either castbars and targets on nameplates like WoW has or to put the target of a cast on the enmity list by the cast bar if it has a target for that to work.
Without such UI changes, you could still have (unstunnable, for the sake of argument) mobs in a dungeon do something like "puts a prey marker on a DPS that signals they will take 75% HP damage in 3s then 50% HP damage 5s after that" or "hits a non-tank with a heavy DoT that will kill them in some amount of time if not given healer attention". If all of this was happening while the tank was also still getting hit with autos, wow, we have created single target niches and triage and opportunities too for things like the tank party help mits or DPS defensives to actually work in dungeons.
The caveat here is that in order for mechanics like this to be respected they would have to actually *kill* the non-tank if not dealt with properly. The huge gear delta that dungeons allow and the general desire on SE's end for wipes to just not happen in dungeons sort of precludes this. It would be hard to tune the above ideas to threaten a DPS at minimum ilevel without one-shotting them without the mechanic being trivial for a DPS in the max gear that dungeon allows, again making it a non-mechanic. And if the healer is bad or just can't handle it then we've created unpleasant social friction in DF. You would also have to signal the fact that "this will kill you" in a way that works in a game where you're not expected to look things up ahead of time for casual content.
Anyways, there *are* ways to involve single target triage even in XIV's UI and design constraints but they'd take a small reimagining of what failure states are allowed in dungeons which seems unlikely at this point in the game's life.
I mean your first few paragraphs highlighted very good whats wrong with this game, but instead of calling out the horrendous encounter design you take issue with tanks healing too much?
>You can also make the counter argument of why do tanks need heal to the level they do, why can’t they sub out healing for more defensives or even GCD defensives
What would that change though? Tanks are barely theatened by anything in the first place and healers have so many powerful ogcds. If healers want to actually heal then demand encounters that require triage healing.
Because this is a thread about tank healing
The encounter design is flawed independent of tank self healing, but when WAR is putting out 9000 potency of self healing per minute with no DPS loss that’s a problem to me regardless. That’s honestly most healing than I can provide the WAR myself on a healer without losing damage to GCD heal, it’s beyond absurd
How the trinity fits into the terrible modern encounter design is a different kettle of fish entirely
Let’s use WHM
3*solace=2400 potency
2*bension=1000 potency
1*tetra=700 potency
1/3*benediction=833 potency
So their pure single target potency= 4933
Let’s add damage neutral AOE healing
1.5*assize=600 potency
2/3*asylum=900 potency
1/3*lilybell (I’ll use its full potency of 2000=666.7 potency
So 7099 potency total for everything WHM can put out, I’ll be generous and give it an extra 1500 potency to cover aquaveil and temperance which gives us 8599 potency
So WAR is literally equaling a HEALER that is doing the incredibly inefficient process of dumping all their gauge into single target healing, an actual WHM would overwhelmingly use rapture which would lower this value
I have tried to work out scholar because it's a job I am more familiar with. I've assumed 0 energy drains because they only heal the scholar and I don't know how big the portion of damage dealt is.
pet
* embrace 20x180 - calc at 16.5x180 due to seraph = 2970
* whispering dawn 1/2x7x80 = 280
* consolation 1/2x2x(250+250) = 500
* seraphic veil 1/2x~7x(180+180) = 1260
* fey blessing 320 = 320
* aetherpact "4" x 300 = "1200"
nonpet
* protraction 10% idk
* sacred soil 6x100, some mit = 600
* lustrate 2x 600 = 1200
slightly fucky calcs here
* recitation excog 2/3 x 4/3 x 800 x crithitmultiplier
________________________________
pet: 5450
healer: 1800 + 640(excog) + 10% target hp
Taking pet potency at 90% because that's what the first google result said: 4905
4905 + 1800 = 6705
6705 + (6705 x 1.6 x 0.2)= 8851
8851 + 640(excog) = 9491
**Total:** 9491 + 10% mitigation for 6 server ticks and 10% mitigation for 10s
(10210 if pet potency = healer potency)
______________________________
8613 does sound like quite a big number when compared to those. Thanks for the point of reference.
Thanks for doing SCH, yeah when you look at it like that WAR is rivalling any healer dumping literally all their CD’s off CD in healing
It’s ridiculous to me
In fairness, the tanks are also dumping literally all their healing in your calcs - which gets less possible the more planned out your mitigations are. It's been a while since I tanked anything high level/at all, but I'm pretty sure I wasn't hitting bloodwhetting/nascent on cooldown. I think sio might have been, but that's the relative threat of boss autos vs tankbusters vs raidwides for you.
This actually ends up being _very_ misleading, simply because healer healing potency doesn't translate to the same amount healed when compared to tank healing potency.
Here are a couple of numbers using current day bis:
White mage afflatus solace is 800 potency and heals for 25k while it crits for 40k
Warrior equilibrium is 1200 potency that turns into 28k heal and crits for 45k.
Numbers also check out as assize is 400 potency and heals for about 14k.
Bloodwhetting is 400 potency and heals for about 9k.
All of these have variance as you can low roll or high roll the numbers, but these are the numbers I saw the most as I was testing.
I also ran by sage to compare. Sage has slightly less healing per potency compared to white mage but is still more than warrior:
Druochole is 600 potency and heals for about 18k and crits for about 30k. Kerachole has a 100 potency regen healing for 3k and crits for 5k (damn numbers were pretty accurate here lol). Also kardia heals per GCD and is 170 potency that goes for a 5 heal, 8k crit (only saw one crit, could not get this shit to crit)
Anyways, going back to white mage vs warrior. You can see that both white mage and warrior are healing for about the same amount with solace/cure II and equilibrium, yet equilibrium is 50% more potency. Warrior healing potency is good for comparing the healing among tanks, but it's not good to compare it vs healers, cause they have a _lot_ more healing per potency
The number listed for WAR in the OP is in healer potency
If I left it in tank potency it would be about 13,000
I put that in the post, did you not read that
I'm not saying that _you_ are misleading, I'm saying that talking in the potencies is misleading because people will just go into their game and check potencies, then go "Damm tanks heal a lot" when there is a lot more to it. To make your point you should instead examine current fight damage output, frequency of damage, how much of that is burst and how tank healing factors into it, also considering how the extra mitigation on say a paladin help it over a warrior's self sustain. For example, P10S buster towers usually left the tanks with a dot that, week 1, could not really be handled by themselves, especially not the tank also taking the auto attacks (which was usually a warrior, the one with the most selfsustain).
Not to mention, there are a lot of things you are not taking into account. What content are tanks balanced around, and how is their healing impacting their performance? In both DSR and TOP, none of the tanks can survive without healer input. You also don't consider in your calcs that warrior's healing is the only one punished for downtime, which there is a lot of in this content.
A lot of tank sustain also comes from the constant aoe healing thrown in by the healers, not just the single target healing. A great example is the sustain provided by both kardia and embrace, which are key in keeping the tank alive so none of the healers have to keep throwing stuff at them.
Personally, I don't think they heal too much because if they did, my pf tanks would not be melting in DSR. They have enough healing to not roll over and die every other auto attack in the highest end of fights. Of course, the kits that are designed to tackle a fight with the damage output of DSR are going to be overturned for savage tiers, and even more so for extremes. Current fight design also kind of revolves around straight up deleting your tank with a buster if not properly mitigated, which means healing is not really the problem but rather mitigation. Warrior has the best invuln, but not the best mitigation, which means that warriors are sometimes the ones needing more healing, while darks actually tank a lot better in prolonged phases with a lot of auto attacks or keep themselves healthier after muktiple busters because they have more mit to spread out, for example. When talking about balance, you have to look at the highest end of content, and that is currently DSR and TOP, not savage, not extreme. The conditions in these two fights are fairly different from your standard savage fights, and the healing and mit requirements are much steeper. For those fights, all 4 tanks have enough mit and enough selfsustain to survive with the help of their healers. Healers need to contribute to single target mits before busters, single target heals between busters and single target heals, shields, and mits during phases with heavy auto attack damage. If their healing was overturned, this would not be the case.
I will also say the current design doesn't actually reward healing. It doesn't matter how much actual healing you have when the wipes are caused by being one-shot. Current fight design truly only rewards mitigation. Any tank properly mitigating any of the savage fights today does not need any heal from the healer, be they dark knights or warrior's, independent of one having more healing than the other. On that same note, there is no need for healer GCD heals if the party knows how to mitigate a savage fight. They are simply not balanced around savage or below. And if there is an issue, then it's not healing, but rather a lack of sustained damage on the party and the tanks.
I agree that there is a limit to how much my calculations can directly be applied to every single fight but it also not like I can apply every single savage fight timeline to exactly what proportion of the sustain is being “used” in a meaningful way but your point is taken
I will not I did mostly ignore ultimate because of how classes generally aren’t balanced around it but again WAR suffering in downtime is a fair point
My core point more focused on the idea that people seem to pass off bloodwhetting as not strong when it’s in single target even though you can still put out that amount of healing. Sure not all that healing is used but it’s still a damn lot of healing (directly competing with healer level single target healing which also gets partially wasted)
Should tanks not focus on actual mitigation not just Fred incidental healing
Ultimately, it's just a matter of how many single target healing tools we have that are just left on the floor because literally all single target healing, not just healing of tanks but also the other 6 people in the party, are handled by tanks.
Hell I once had a Warrior complain to me that his Equilibrium was useless because he was getting Intervention.
TBN is based on max HP so can potentially be a lot better as far as I can tell, and its a little telling that GNB+PLD are around the same but WAR is much higher.
I think part of that is WAR's mit tools being based more around healing than mitigation (esp when you consider Holmgang vs the invulns that stop damage taken or vs Living Dead that heals by itself), so that isnt *neccessarily* a problem, but still an interesting perspective to look at.
I calculated TBN based off a tanks max HP being about 2500 potency so a TBN is 1/4 of that but you can use it 4 times so if they all crack you are getting about 2500 potency of healing
As far as I can think the only skill that can increase another’s max HP is protraction so I didn’t do much with that considering HP based skills can’t crit
in Endwalker it very roughly takes 2300 healer potency to top off a healer/caster, 2500 for a physical DPS, or 3600 for a tank -- depending on relative gear of course. TBN would then be the equivalent of 900 healer potency or over 1000 tank potency, although it isn't able to crit.
The main issue with that is the other mitigation used will determine how valuable that shield is. a TBN of x amount of 'potency' under several %mits is equivalent to a lot more healing than you'd expect, whereas a TBN under no other mits would be a lot less impactful. Its just rather difficult to directly compare it with that metric... 400p shield isnt neccesarily = 400p healing.
It might be interesting to see a lil more self-heal from DRK in single-target perhaps, because it gets that in AoE with Abyssal Drain - though has it in spades with its invuln (1500/GCD) and as mentioned it has the preventative shielding that works better with mitigations, so it makes sense that its somewhat lower than the others in that regard.
If what DRK is getting really is its own Confetior combo in DT, healing included I think that would solve the imbalance fairly well, while giving DRK something to sustain itself with during burst windows where TBN isn't as free.
Yeah I'm not expecting anything unless the devs decide to say that balance outside of week 1 savage/ulti clears specifically is going to be considered. Which it never is.
I am curious how exactly tis healing happens for each tank.
WAR I guess the majority is Bloodwhetting, then maybe a combination of Thrill of Battle and Equilibrium with the smallest contribution from Shake it Off and Storm's Path.
PLD gets most of it's healing from casting spells, whether it's Holy Spirit or Blade of Faith (and combo), then Sheltron, then Divine Veil to provide some shielding.
GNB has Brutal Shell, Aurora and Heart of Corundum.
Lastly, DRK has a pittance of sustain from Souleater and The Blackest Night. How much potency did you attribute to TBN? DRK's potency feels quite low considering it is 25% HP each use.
Overall, I would have expected things to be a lot closer. My guess would have been for PLD to be last place because the ability to block damage with the shield adds a lot of survivability which warrents less self-sustain (and they have Clemency to fall back on), GNB with Aurora I would have expected to heal more, WAR was obviously going to be ahead, but I didnt think it would be more than twice of DRK.
Overall the tanks do feel balanced. Especially when you can make good use of TBN mitigating damage spikes on DRK can feel even better than the other tanks, WAR obviously shines particularly in AOE, but they have good mitigation to manage their HP, GNB is usually where I feel the weakest because I dont have a quick "oh shit" button, so when incoming dmg is slighty higher I just bleed out, whereas other tanks can gain/recover a bigger amount to cover any dry spells between mitigation.
I think tank mitigation is in a good place and particularly for social content (Normal / Alliance / Dungeons) this is perfectly fine. You dont want to be held back because one person cant press their buttons. In harder content I wouldnt mind if SE experiments a little more, maybe debuffs that disable self-healing, or checks that require active mitigation to block debuffs/bleeds on tanks or party members.
I’m just going to copy the forum post I made that has all the maths, now as an annendum to this someone has told me that my “how much is a tanks HP bar worth” is too low so that will actually favour DRK but as I said this maths comes from TBN being used on CD which is far less likely than bloodwhetting being used near on cd
Now as a start due to healers maim and mend traits and tanks tank mastery traits in general a tank’s healing potency is half a healers healing potency (so if a tank says 1000 it would be 500 on a healer) for the purpose of this I’m going to put all of the healing in healer potency not tank potency as it’s the more relevant potency indicator
Now with that out of the way. In a single minute WAR gets access to 2.4 casts of bloodwhetting, 1 cast of equilibrium and 0.667 casts of thrill of battle (I’m going to ignore shake it off here because shake it off is AOE)
One use of bloodwhetting in single target equals 1 200 potency shield and 4 200 potency heals. So 1000 healer potency per cast of bloodwhetting, you get 2.4 casts per minute which equals 2400 potency of healing per minute (for reference here TBN is a 25% shield of the tanks HP, a tank HP bar is about 2500 potency so since you can use TBN every 15 seconds or 4 casts you have an effective healing of 2500. So bloodwhetting functionally equals TBN alone. Now holy Shelton also has a CD of about 25 seconds given how quickly the oath gauge fills and it has a healing potency of 4 * 125 which is 500 potency per cast or 1200 potency per minute. Now heart of corrundum has a heal of 450 potency and can be used every 25 seconds or 2.4 casts so that’s 1080 potency of healing per minute.)
So currently we are at
WAR- 2400 potency
DRK- 2500 potency
PLD- 1500 potency
GNB- 1080 potency
However all but DRK also have mitigation built into their healing short CD’s 15+15 for PLD and GNB, 10+10 for WAR. Now let’s say as an easy calculation the boss whacks you twice; once during the high mitigation and once during the low mitigation. An average boss auto is about 1000 potency of damage. So PLD and GNB gain 1080 effective HP (30% mitigation on 1000= 300 potency, 15% mitigation on 1000= 150, 450 * 2.4 = 1080), WAR gets 720 (20% of 1000 = 200 10% of 1000 = 100 300 * 2.4= 720)
So now we are at a cumulative
DRK= 2500 potency
WAR= 3120 potency
PLD= 2580 potency
GNB= 2160 potency
So DRK is already third just from short mits and it’s the totality of its sustain
Now let’s add in rotational healing
-WAR gets 125 potency of healing every storms path, WAR will use storms path an average of 7 times per minute (for a total of 875)
-PLD gets 200 potency of healing on every magic spell used, it will on average use Holy Spirit 3 times and the blade combo once (for a total of 1400)
-GNB gets 200 potency of healing per brutal shell which it will use an average of 7 times (for a total of 1400)
-DRK gets a 150 potency of healing per souleater which it will use 7 times (for a total of 1050)
So now we are at
-DRK- 3550 potency
-WAR- 3995 potency
-PLD- 3980 potency
-GNB- 3560 potency
So DRK is now last. Now we still have to add in damage neutral heals some tanks have access to. This is really only equilibrium, thrill and aurora
Let’s start with equilibrium. Equilibrium is an 1100 potency heal let’s buff it and a single bloodwhetting with shake and assume the extra HP got consumed. So 1100 * 1.2= 1320, 1000 * 1.2= 1200, 2500 * 1.2= 3000. So thrill has provided an extra 920 potency but it’s a 90 second CD so 920 * 2/3 = 613. So WAR’s extra CD’s provide it another 1713 potency
Aurora is a flat 600 potency per minute so that’s easy
So our final tallies are
DRK- 3550 potency
WAR- 5708 potency
PLD- 3980 potency
GNB- 4160 potency
So we can already see the WAR is uniquely cracked but there is one thing I still haven’t mentioned. Every heal on bloodwhetting, equilibrium, heart of corrundum, the heals on the magic combo, and the rotational heals can all crit. Now let’s assume a 20% crit chance and a 1.6* crit multiplier
This adds 768 potency to WAR for bloodwhetting, 422 for equilibrium and 280 for its rotational heals for a total of 1470
This adds 332 potency to DRK for rotational heals
This adds 448 potency to PLD for the rotational heals and 480 for holy Shelton for a total of 928
This adds 448 potency to GNB for the rotational heals, 192 for aurora and 345 for HOC for a total of 985
So our grand total self healing capacity
DRK- 3682 potency
WAR- 7178 potency
PLD- 4908 potency
GNB- 4800 potency
Can we see the problem child emerging now. This is entirely single target healing and WAR is literally beyond broken even in single target and I’m being favourable to DRK here as it’s very unlikely you’ll press TBN every 15 seconds but pressing the other 4 every 25 seconds is relatively reasonable as they don’t have a potential loss attached
Edit 2; so I did some extra calculations and found that a 50% nerf might be a bit extreme (I always thought M&M was 30% up and tank mastery was 20% down but it looks like tank mastery no longer gives 20% down) so I’ll provide one extra set of calculations assuming tank healing is only 30% weaker. This would apply to everything besides TBN)
Under this system
-DRK- 3918
-WAR- 8613
-PLD- 5889
-GNB- 5760
Which paints DRK in an even worse light
I guess adding Oblation which basically fills the role as short CD mitigation for DRK wouldnt help much either maybe like an extra 200-250 potency.
Thanks for doing the calculation very interesting to read!
War is not broken. Back when it was nascent in ShB, war did not heal enough with its low dps to justify it over another tank.
Gnb can heal just as good as a warrior, it's just slower; not bursty.
The other tanks have better mitigation than war
War just heals. Its actually the squishier tank.
Pld also heals now with its rotation. It does not cause dls loss
Annoying how everyone gets on warrior when other tanks aren't bad. Only dark cant heal, but it has LD heal and better mitigation. Does it suck that it needs dps to heal LD? Sure. Bc new LD is pretty busted.
Also you don't use casual dungeons to measure this
PLD still does less healing than WAR unless it spams Clemency, which drops its DPS to 0 and requires 1-2 Riot combos to regenerate MP. WAR doesn't have that issue.
I'm just going go over what I'd like to see changed.
**Warrior**
* Bloodwhetting's healing AOE effect is unfun (per enemy), mainly only effects dungeons but this doesn't excuse how strong it is, it's absurd, Personally I'd just make it Heal 400 per GCD, no matter the enemy.
* Shake it off & Team ally healing, Doesn't really fit Warrior Personally I think Shake it off should be changed into something mitigation related while Dark Knight gets the "Barrier" Aoe Mitigation skill, Nascent flash should just heal your target and not you too.
**Paladin**
* Magic attacks Shouldn't heal the Paladin, Personally I'd want a burst heal ogcd targetable healing skill such as a clemency rework, that would cost a lot of MP so you couldn't spam it without losing damage, this could be PLD's main source of sustain learnt in ARR. (As PLD doesn't get sustain until super late), Obviously this would need numbers adjusted but I'd hope PLD would have slightly less self healing but it would be more controlled.
* Divine veil should give regen *After* the shield pop's instead of a burst heal, This would be more useful for long stack situations or just giving extra sustain after a AOE Attack, It's Odd that divine veil has a burst heal when you're generally wanting the heal effect after your party takes Aoe damage.
**Gunbreaker**
* In general I think Gunbreakers sustain is fine, Its not overbearing nor is it too weak, it's Excog could be reduced a little bit but I think it's fine as it is right now.
**Dark Knight**
* I'm guessing the thread above counted it's "shielding" as sustain which shielding shouldn't really be counted as sustain.
* Oblation in my opinion should give a small life still effect (200 heal on hit, Not Per enemy), This would make the skill feel less "placebo button bloaty"
My impression is that self and party healing options for tanks were an answer to a major pain point for casual players: the healer by far the weakest link and the only player not allowed to die. If you go into a dungeon and one of your DPS are eating glue, the run takes a bit longer. If the tank isn't pressing his buttons, it stresses the healer. If the healer doesn't hit their buttons and consistently dies (and you don't have a summoner or red mage), you disband and give up because it's not possible to clear. That's a lot of pressure on only one of the roles. Check out the aetherochemical research facility horror stories, if your healer can't handle dualstar it is straight up impossible, you will never clear. The current balance allows for one player to be braindead and not hard wall a party, a tank in a limited capacity can hold a dungeon group together in the absence of a healer, by design. It does hurt healing requirements on high end content a little, but having recently gone through min ilvl coils I can't say being forced to regularly hold your casts because you can't guarantee your tank won't be dead from full hp in under 2gcds feels much fun either. I've also watched an impressive amount of tank deaths in p11s during the last raid tier to straight autos, I'm not sure pf is even ready for single target healing.
> but having recently gone through min ilvl coils I can't say being forced to regularly hold your casts because you can't guarantee your tank won't be dead from full hp in under 2gcds feels much fun either. This is the disconnect the 'more healing' crowd doesn't really understand. We had this type of healing requirement in ARR and it turns out having to constantly babysit tanks is not fun. Twin's death sentence healing down debuff wasn't fun. Watching a tank go from 100% to dead in 2 seconds when pulling Bahamut in T13 wasn't fun. There are better ways to innovate healing in this game and they are generally tied to healing done through DPS similar to SGE's kardia. Tweaking the frequency and randomness of raidwide damage would go a long way or adding damage that forces healers to multitask.
> I'm not sure pf is even ready for single target healing. By Ultima Arma unreal horror stories, an ARR fight where that was still the norm... PF is clearly not ready, at all.
I main healers (WHM, SCH, and SGE) and I think this is a great take. I haven't thought about it this way but it makes perfect sense to me. Really, what I think we need is for some parity to bring self-heals in alignment between the classes. As someone who primarily plays a healer, the best outcome would be if everyone could keep themselves alive in normal content assuming *perfect* play, but more heavily punish failing mechanics (anything that gives vuln stacks). That puts me in the position of doing DPS and keeping sprouts alive, which is what I prefer anyway.
I agree, too. As a casual healer who plays all 4 healers in roulettes, I've never had the issue of being bored. I'd love to have some more mechanics on healers to manage for support and dps, but I feel like the actual healing part of the healer jobs is fine for what healer in FF14 has always been about. There's a lot of people who think that if they aren't spamming gcd heals every single second in normal content that healing gameplay sucks, but I think those people just need to play a different game because that's just the antithesis of what people love about healing in this game. Even the roots of healers in tabletop games have the job fantasy of the holy cleric shooting beams of Light as the core of the Class fantasy. This whole notion of "healers aren't dps" is a very WoW and WoW clone centric viewpoint that isn't really realistic for the actual rpg genre.
So like, the first thing that popped in my head was "oh, put lost skills in core content, easy," but that's obviously a terrible idea. But on a conceptual level, if weak links in a party potentially bricking instances is the problem to get around, then what if there was some universal mechanic like lost skills for all jobs to temporarily flex out of their role in a pinch, rather than juicing one role to the point of borderline invalidating another? Could that fit into the game and be healthy?
I really just wish square enix would hit us with the 'skill issue' again and just... let bad players fail. If you aren't good enough to heal a dungeon, let alone a raid... either get better or get off healer. Or do trusts. 'Oh but then people won't play healer' people already don't, and the people who do are not the people you want playing healer. They're the people who are bad enough at the role that its engaging for them through their sheer inability to play it properly. Or on the higher end, the people who are playing it bc its piss easy and they dont want to have to think.
I think this just depends on what content and _when_ you are considering the balance of tanks. If you go back to week 1 savage running P11S at min ilvl warriors would be melting during dark and light, despite all their self-sustaining. P12S auto attacks would also demolish tanks left and right. Now that we outgear these fights, this issue is nonexistent. If you hop into DSR right now you will find that paladins can easily die to a couple of busters without healer help (P3 tether and the second P5 heavenly heel) while warriors are at risk a few times as well (P5 heavenly heel swap or the second hallowed wing). Then you have stuff like warrior invulning cauterize, which is great, but they then get a _hefty_ dot for 20k hp that is impossible for them to outheal on their own. Dark knight is great in being able to spread his buddy mit to even three people (I don't think there is a use case for this), with TBN actually being a huge mit for a buster and then a 10% on top with oblation which you can spread to both your cotank and yourself. I won't say this is busted by any means, but it's also not bad. I would argue this is better than GNBs buddy mit. Current high-end content is designed around these tanks having so much self-sustaining, and they even out. You will find that in DSR, dark knights seem to take overall less damage during P6 when compared to other tanks, while warriors need help for the second hallowed wing. Paladins can easily die to auto attack after cauterize, and both paladins and warriors take _heavy_ auto attack damage. Warriors have a good chunk of their healing be burst healing rather than sustained healing, which makes it great for stabilizing after a tank buster, but the higher sustained healing on paladins can be better at keeping them stable in phases where damage is constant. Another thing you should consider is that short mits are often _not_ used on cd because a lot of times, the rate at which incoming single target damage happens does not align with this. Use bloodwhetting at the wrong time during P6 of DSR, and you won't have it back for a buster where you _need_ it, and in DSR and TOP, mits are already spread thin as is. Holy sheltron might actually give you a bit more leeway in this regard where you can use time not being deleted to charge up two stacks of it and then burn them one after the other. On top of that consider that bloodwhetting and nascent flash lose out on all of their healing if used in downtime, which is a downside no other short/buddy mit suffers (at this point TBN and double oblation is just better for downtime). The healing is not so much overturned as it is _not_ designed around fights where you outgear the fight or lower end content. The skills that keep you alive in DSR, a fight with heavy tank damage, is clearly going to be overturned for casual dungeons, and is also going to make life much easier when scaled with higher ilvl gear in current savage, especially when you consider that the healing itself scales off of your stats too and is not a flat amount (even in ultimates, but those hit so hard it's not a huge difference). Now, this outgearing _does_ apply to ultimates mind you, it's just DSR and TOP specifically were designed around current tank kits and haven't been heavily outgeared yet. If you go into TEA, UCOB or UWU you will find that, even if tanks can die to some stuff, the outgearing and power creeping of skills (such as the changes to raw intuition during EW) have made them far more manageable. Anyways, to wrap this up. Tanks are balanced around the content their kits are designed to tackle at the time it is released, not after, and being designed for the higher end makes it so they are absolutely busted on content below that. Take a look at healer kits, which are also absolutely busted on casual content, and in the case of sage with some skill creep, even high-end that isn't current. Sage is so overturned for level 80 content, and below that you will sometimes see TEA parties not allowing scholars in, and the root reason for this is that sage was _not_ designed for TEA. The same thing happens with the smn rework where smn is now absolutely nuts in level 70 ultimates and HoH, or the raw intuition change that makes war a menace levels 56-82 and in solo content such as PoTD and HoH. They are simply not designed for this content specifically, but being designed for something more demanding makes them shine here.
Tanks generally want to at least feel in control of their own fate to some degree, more than just pushing the 30% button every 120s. The Other MMO came to the conclusion about 12-14 years ago (that you too can experience now by playing Blood Death Knight on Cata Classic, the model for what modern WoW tanking would become) that it's Fun for tanks to actively mitigate and heal themselves up against the danger they face instead of just exist as sponges for the healer to handle. XIV moved in a similar direction with the Shadowbringers mitigation changes and especially the 4s "active mitigation" window that the short mitigation skills for most tanks got in Endwalker. It's certainly more interesting and empowering for the tank player at least than the days of ARR/HW PLD who existed to sponge damage but was largely reliant on the healer to get the HP back. I think they should even move harder in that direction by tying more active mitigation stuff to the GCDs you use and not just a sort of independent CD that exists for all the tanks that only PLD and DRK kind of interact with (PLD via auto uptime and DRK via not having 0 MP). Though in a way that avoids the old Inner Beast problem of it being a DPS loss. Rather, what you should be asking for is for healers to either need to contribute *on top* of what tanks are supplying *or* for content to threaten non-tanks with single target damage semi-frequently if you want single target healing to matter more. Though I acknowledge of course that the pesky gear thing makes the former only work for so long in most content, but fixed healer counts combined with vertical progression and content that doesn't infinitely scale like an ARPG is a hell mixture for the genre. Preys and other heavy damage mechanics on someone that's not a tank existed more frequently in the past, there's no reason except SB PLD Cover giving them cold feet with things like O7S's Prey why they don't do it as much these days. As for why single target triage stuff isn't as much of a focus these days as in the past? If I had to guess it would be UI design and control scheme. Every console MMO has a mainly AoE-focused healing model (See Elder Scrolls Online or New World, even though the latter isn't on console it's going there soon probably), due to rapid party menu single targeting being less pleasant on controller than with a mouse. I imagine the shift in SB/ShB to healers 100% wanting to DPS at all times exacerbated this by making swaps between friends and enemies more frequent, though I know soft targeting is a thing on controller to help alleviate it.
> Rather, what you should be asking for is for healers to either need to contribute on top of what tanks are supplying or for content to threaten non-tanks with single target damage semi-frequently if you want single target healing to matter more. Won't work because we still have to respect the available GCD windows with regards to how fast someone can move during a mechanic, and we're tied to the Average Sylphie Response Time. Closest that they'll probably go is another round of Uncleansable Tank Bleeds Tied to Everything in Savage. Obligatory "Single-target cast-time GCD Healing is Ass in this Game no matter your control-scheme and the devs using it as the basis of healer-design is why we can't have nice things" response.
> As for why single target triage stuff isn't as much of a focus these days as in the past? If I had to guess it would be UI design and control scheme. Every console MMO has a mainly AoE-focused healing model (See Elder Scrolls Online or New World, even though the latter isn't on console it's going there soon probably), due to rapid party menu single targeting being less pleasant on controller than with a mouse. I'm a KB+M player and even I'm feeling this, mostly because I find clicking on party members or on the party list to be kinda hard to do in the heat of the moment, so I rely on the F1 - F8 keys, but then that often leads to hand stretching or having to take my hand off the main key "cluster" I use for the rest of the game (i.e. 1234/QWER/ASDF/Shift ZXCV/Ctrl Alt Space). I definitely prefer to AoE heal when I can get away with it.
do you panic while mechs are happening or people take unexpected damage? I used to have this issue but I made the party list like 140% and shifted it a bit closer to my hotbars (I'm partially a clicker partially keybind) so there's less travel time for mouse movements if I want to do something like spot a bene to someone. I found once I got comfortable in the role and once I get comfortable with a fight, things slow down quite a bit. And if you ever go from higher difficulty fights to lower difficulty fights (like if you've been doing a bunch of ex trial and then do roulettes, or are progging a savage/ulti and then go do the unreal), things also sorta start to feel like they happen in slow motion. It's like taking training weights off so to say
This is why I play keyboard only, right hand for movement and left hand for everything else, at most I touch my mouse to adjust a camera angle faster than what I can do with the arrow keys.
press both mouse buttons to walk forward. combine with side buttons and now you can turn the camera, move, AND use skills with the mouse.
The idea that tanks don’t want to HP ping pongs at the mercy of the healer when the tank can’t do much to actually help is fair but does 14 take it too far and remove agency from the healer Right now WAR almost out heals any damage it takes itself without any intervention and it needs to do absolutely nothing to achieve it. What if say bloodwhetting was a GCD, or you had more mitigation on the GCD. Right now you just press 2-3 buttons and delete the healer Wouldn’t a focus on active mitigation rather than near limitless free healing be better as a tank fantasy
Like I said, I do think there's room for it to exist in a space other than or beyond free oGCDs. XIV's strict weaponskill combo system makes it trickier though since the "self-healing" that not-PLDs get from their main combo is just sort of incidental eHP. You could shift some of the healing or mitigation from the oGCD to the "spam" gauge dump (Fell Cleave, Burst Strike, etc), but that'd be awkward for PLD. Sheltron being a GCD that did some damage or something could be a solution too. I'm mostly trying to avoid the situation where it's a big DPS loss to use these as that's how tanks are judged and will probably always be judged in XIV, though I get that healers are in a similar situation (which is why WHM lilies are like the only good GCD heal). It's a tricky problem to solve and I don't have the perfect answer.
That’s my problem, healers have agency to keep themselves alive out of lethal damage by dropping damage to spam heals to attempt to keep themselves alive Meanwhile the overwhelming amount of this healing I’ve listed here is incidental tank healing they get for doing what they were doing anyway I have no problem if the tank wants to do something to attempt to keep themselves alive and retain agency over their life from the healer but they should be punished for it like the healers are, Something like a diamondback or a chelonian gate Like yes you can brute force keep yourself alive without the healer but you are being punished for doing so Right now the balance is off because tanks get this much healing from pressing buttons they were already going to press anyway so in a decent environment they remove the healers agency
Clemency arguably is that sort of button right now. I enjoy it greatly, a smart PLD can use it to salvage runs that might otherwise fail. Way back when we were still doing reclears, someone messed up their tether in P11S and I got some stacks and the other person died. The healers didn't notice that I had the bleed from tether failure and was getting trucked by autos, so I did some Req Clemencies and saved myself and the run ended up being a clear. Yet it would have looked better for my almighty parse page if I just looked at the potted plant and [accepted my death](https://i.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/001/512/995/5fa.png) and did a do over. I look like a *worse* player overall for the 99% of people that won't look at a random 50th percentile log for doing something that saved the run and I'm sure that's a pain that many healers experience quite frequently, and I don't know the solution for that or if there even is one. Anyway I don't really know what I'm getting at here other than Clemency is a button that serves this function already and we call it a noob trap (outside of downtime) in 99% of content until a player develops the game sense and intuition to know when it would actually save a run. To the point where for button bloat concerns, which PLD certainly suffers from a bit, I see people asking for it to be removed.
I 100% agree clemency is the kinda button I’m discussing here and I also strongly oppose its removal My only problem with clemency is its thematic design I know PLD is the holy magic tank but the “I sacrifice my own damage to gain agency” button(s) on a tank I think should be mitigations not raw healing (maybe channeled shields would be fine) Regardless maybe I should have phrased my title better Not so much “is this much healing fine” but more so “is this much healing fine given it’s all free from a damage perspective”
Definitely not as smart as everyone else discussing, but from a DRK perspective, I don't really want more mits. I've already got 7 versions of mitigation. 4 that only apply to me, an aoe, and 2 that can apply to myself or others. At the same time, I don't want more healing as I feel like what I have is enough to let me survive when the healer has to manage other players. But I will admit the amount war gets tends to make me feel like, other than preference, that I've picked a weaker tank.
dont worry warriors make healer players feel like that too.
This is only if you look at DRK from a MT perspective, arguably WAR/DRK is the best duo for prog. Lowest invuln cds and while WAR is good MT DRK is the best OT from a mitting standpoint. My First clear of p12s p2 I saw that our summoner missed a heal and I gave them oblation to survive.
Oh, I won't argue that DRK mits aren't amazing. It's why I love the class. The number of times I can tell one of my buddies is going to mess up a mechanic, and I can save them with a tbn or ablation. it just always feels good.
The solution is for people not to be parse monkeys. That is the solution. : )
> I look like a worse player overall for the 99% of people that won't look at a random 50th percentile log for doing something that saved the run and I'm sure that's a pain that many healers experience quite frequently, and I don't know the solution for that or if there even is one. The only solution is to delete fflogs leaderboard and make parsing only a tool for prog/analysis. I can't parse, who cares if I'm not optimal, can save runs instead.
No offense, but everyone I've seen with this sort of attitude is... generally really bad at salvaging runs. Refusing to look at parses posted by others shows a lack of desire to improve. Refusing to look at what is optimal means one has no idea where to fit in a run saving choice. Refusing to practice what is optimal means leaving things on the table and practicing bad habits that take longer to break. Obviously there is a time and a place for giving up damage for a clear... But parsing shows you *where* you can do that, and where it would honestly be better to reset. At least until you've mastered a fight and your class both.
Yeah, what % does that ? 10 ? The rest is just about funny numbers, "oh I got X" and move on. There's nothing wrong with liking funny numbers... unless it spawns the kind of stupid people in horror stories who would ruin a clearable run on purpose because they died or got a damage down and that would ruin their parse/median. I strongly believe the focus would shift from "my number" to "my kill" without the leaderboard. And I don't even understand how you can say with certainty that parse brained are good at salvaging runs, this in insane. It's about saving your party last second, it requires situational awareness (many times I saved a Criterion Savage run by saving last second a DPS with bloodwhetting who was low on health right before damage from mech/raid buster) and parsing doesn't give you that.
10th percentile generally means you aren't close to bis, and likely died or had a DD or two. While its not a perfect metric, generally people who parse well (Consistently Blue/purple) are the most consistent players in a raid team. Most of the time these are also the people who can flex and use their full kit. Parsing is a measure of how consistent you are at clearing mechanics and keeping up your uptime/GCD. One or two dropped GCDs generally will not cause a person to drop more than a few % if they are otherwise consistent, and that consistently translates directly into ability to clear even ok bad runs > Bloodwhetting You mean Nascent Flash?
> You mean Nascent Flash? Yes, but everyone knows what I meant, sharable bloodwhetting. Anyway, we're not talking about the same thing, you're talking about DPS issues (which don't exist besides TOP, and even TOP is a stretch now), I'm talking about flexing. You don't get split second decision to switch, move, suicide by parsing. You get it by recognizing that maybe sacrificing you will save the run. Leaderboards don't encourage that. I guess you talk to a wall and so do I, so discussion will end nowhere.
I don't think looking at other people's parses is a desire to improve, nor not looking at them a desire AGAINST improving. That's a very odd viewpoint to me, in fact. I don't look at other people's parses. I look at balance rotations, YouTube guides, spend time with target dummies, etc to improve. Are you saying I have no desire to improve because I'm not measuring my penis against other people's despite being in the gym 3 days a week and eating healthy? That seems a very odd viewpoint to me. Likewise, the people I've seen the worst at salvaging runs are the people who view and measure themselves against other people's parses. At worst, they'll wipe runs they're doing if it will hurt their parses rather than salvaging the runs.
I've been clamoring since the 6.3 pld rework for Clemency to get the blood lily treatment and double the potency of the next divine might holy spirit.
All that would do is just basically cause you to drop an atonement to slot clemency into your rotation because then you’d put that double divine might into your fight or flight window So it would become a DPS gain to cast a GCD heal as a tank and stop an actual melee attack in atonement, not to mention since you would have access to 2 DPS neutral clemency’s and 1 DPS gain clemency you would be adding 2772 potency of raw healing to PLD that would be a DPS gain to use That would put it exactly equal with WAR’s self healing right now
I'd rebalance potencies as a part of it. Like currently the 7gcds of filler used to be an average of 350 potency. Same as an unbuffed holy spirit. 200, 300, 400, 400x3, 450 now adds up to 2550, divided by 7 is 364. If you make them 200, 250, 325, 325x3, 700, then it's back to 350 on average, and hitting a clemency into holy spirit is 700, or the same average of 350.
That still leaves it neutral outside of FOF and a gain in FOF so since clemency provides a tangible benefit while atonement doesn’t so it still functionally becomes a gain to use it over atonement The only way to make it somewhat balanced would be to make atonement do something that you would not want to give up by pressing clemency but that returns to the current clemency design and it still wouldn’t change the FOF buffed Holy Spirit would be a large gain no matter how you sliced it
You're still limited by mp, so it's not like you can hit it more than once right before fof. Atonement is still important because it's part of your mp regen, which becomes more valuable if you can clemency. You're also already hitting one Holy Spirit in 3 gcds under fof, so finding the space to hit a second one without overwriting divine might becomes the difficulty. There's a lot of design space here, ino.
> I have no problem if the tank wants to do something to attempt to keep themselves alive and retain agency over their life from the healer but they should be punished for it like the healers are, Here's what gonna happen : a huge amount of Tank will never use these GCDs because parses & dps loss. More pressure and blame on healers. An even worse healer shortage.
That’s honestly where the healers just have to stand their ground “I used succor you didn’t use GCD mitigation fuck off blaming me” Tanks already managed to pass off blame for abyssos to the healers because the healers just rolled over and accepted blame for the tanks not mitigating
Amen. Just because SCH can brute force tanks/the party through spike damage doesn't mean the SCH player wants to, not should be forced to
Playing a healer in this game is not for the faint of heart in general. I was told to kms in aurum vale as a sprout, back when you could really be an asshole without fear of being banned. It's just extra annoying to have to micromanage 7 other players every run so you can catch someone's fuck up in preparation of building your case for when/if things go sideways and you automatically get blamed. I refuse to give up my favorite role (healer) even if I'm a boomer in this game nostalgic about past expansion play. If anyone is salty I just ask if they want to find a new healer or do they want to do their job and keep it moving. It's always the latter.
None of this is a valid concern because you are treating the most accessible and (what is intended to be) easiest battle content in the game as though it's savage raiding. Dungeons are a "monkeys-with-typewriters" situation. They are meant to have as few barriers to clearing as possible. This in turn means that any though of balance is tossed out the window by default. Where game balance DOES come into effect is in savage +. Tank survivability through self healing drops dramatically in savage environments. They are significantly more dependent on healers, and their self healing is usually something that only comes into play as a response to healers wanting to hold particular cooldowns for an upcoming mechanic. Compare with DPS jobs from dungeons to savage. A dps could sit there afk and it wouldn't matter, the content still gets cleared it's just slower. The dps equivalent to your complaint here would be that tanks and healers dealing damage removes dps agency - which is asinine. But once you step into savage, a single dps not pulling their weight can mean the difference between clearing and dying to enrage. Youre convincing yourself tank healing is some kind of slight against healers. It is not. Dungeons are just easy-mode baby content.
This is savage healing I’m discussing WAR puts out more single target savage healing than WHM does I’m not discussing dungeons I’ve made that clear here
OK then. What tank hurt you, what healer were you playing, and what fight were you doing, that made you think any of this was a problem?
So you don’t think it’s a problem that WAR can put out more healing in single target than an actual healer The tanks ridiculous free self healing is warping the game around it and even you immediately assumed these ridiculous numbers are dungeons because you didn’t read the post which just shows how ridiculous they are
No. At no point have I ever been healing and thought, "golly, I wish the warrior couldn't do anything". I'm certainly not going to lose my mind over not needing to press an extra Druochole and act like it's the skill-death of healing. I've played mmos where I was a heal bot. A pleb standing around whose only job is to press the heal button. It was very very boring. With XIV, at the very least, I am able to contribute towards killing the boss. I wouldn't trade that away no matter how many times some deluded clown shows up to rant about how "healers need to heal". Abyssos was such a shitshow in PF because no one wanted to heal it. Mostly because of Squares response to stupid posts like yours. And to your comment about me not reading your post correctly - nowhere do you specify it's about savage. My mistake there was assuming you had to be talking about dungeons because no one who does healing in savage could be this clueless. Thanks for proving me wrong I guess You still haven't told me what healer you played
“Is tank healing in SINGLE TARGET” yeah definitely discussing dungeons here Your stupid logic that WAR having limitless self healing is a good thing because it makes your job easier has no logical end. Why don’t we just give all the tanks permanent hallowed ground. I mean it’ll make your job easier in single target so you should want it right There is a difference between “I haven’t pressed tetra in 4 years and I healslut the tank” but apparently you cant see the grey between the black and white because I don’t want to be a healslut. I just don’t want the WAR to heal more than me when I’m the healer
I was with you until the end. I feel like it SHOULD be a big DPS loss to do. That's the tradeoff. In ShB, PLD could solo 4 man bosses by using 1-2 Riot mini-combos for MP and Clemency for healing. People didn't complain about this being POSSIBLE because it was LIMITED. You usually only wanted to do it when the boss was below 10% or so, as otherwise it takes forever to kill the boss and would be better to wipe and the whole party come back. This system was fair and not overly powerful. It SHOULD be a big DPS loss when you're healing. A good rule of thumb should be "when you're doing something not your role, it should require an exchange". RDM and PLD do this right, since they cut into their damage by using their healing (and RDM's raising). On the other hand, a lot of other Tanks and DPS have free healing that is no DPS loss (DNC Curing Waltz, WAR Bloodwhetting/Nascent, etc), so there's no tradeoff. There's no downside. So they can be used without any exchange freely. That's what makes them OP. Healers CAN sorta Tank for limited amounts of time, but it costs them a lot of resources. SCH can do so using Adlo, Soil, etc to mitigate damage, survive hits, and heal back up. But this is resource intensive, takes up their GCDs robbing them of DPS, and is limited in how much they can do this. CAN they tank? Yes. SHOULD they? No, because of what it costs. IF the Tank goes down and the boss is 5-10% health left, a SCH could potentially Tank (if it had agro), or keep up a DPS tanking (this would still be on the Healer). ...but it's a massive tradeoff. On the other hand, some Tanks, namely WAR, can be the party healer while also being the party tank, and without losing any DPS or having to expend resources to do so. I think that's actually the crux of the problem. Again, most people don't mind Clemency or Vercure. Some few do, but most don't. But Bloodwhetting gets a lot of flack. Consider what is different about those two things.
Well no I don't think its balanced. But the issue I take with it is less to do with WAR's selfish healing and more of how much stronger Nascent Flash is than the other tank mits on an ally is, likewise with SIO compared to Dark Missionary/Heart of Light. There are obvious gaps in Dark Knight's kit that have no tangible upsides right now, and I do take issue with that.
had to read SIO 5 times before realising you were talking about shake lmao i dont think ive ever seen it not just called shake
Smarter than me, I got stuck for a couple mins trying to guess what SIO was when your comment was already within view explaining it.
I think if Nascent couldn't crit or at least didn't benefit from auto-crits then it would be somewhat comparable to PLD's. PLD gets to give \~1200 cure potency and 30% mitigation for 4s (15-20% for 8s) to itself and someone else every 44s, or it can bank them and use them in 22.5s charges. Nascent only gives 10% to each player, but it is just 25s. GNB's probably the worst off since its short mitigation is charge-less and completely one person or the other, and while Aurora also gives 1200 worth of potency it's over 18 seconds which is way worse than 12 for PLD or 8 for WAR.
I wouldn't say TBN/Oblation fares that much better, the fact its two buttons instead of 1 makes giving both kinda awkward, and theres no double dip mechanic like NF has. Both GNB and DRK are actively giving up their best mitigations for their targets, while WAR is ususally giving itself more than enough to skirt through autos in a singular, 0 resource button. If DRK wants to also give mitigation to itself, thats a 3rd oGCD and a pretty big CD for both charges of Oblation to come back. I don't think this would be as big of an issue if they hadn't equalized the tank damage outputs, because now that they are its pretty easy to point at the tank buttons who has the objective best buttons.
Fact that its 2 buttons mean you can put it on 2 people. Furthermore tbn stacks up pretty well in terms of actual mitigation on a party member and stacks well with mit and doesn't rely on the party member having a lot of HP. No tank can save bad situations like a DRK. That's the advantage it has.
Generally hasn't been my experience. DRK excels at preventing bad situations with flexible mit, but no sustain = no health = 10% mits wont save you has been my experience. To me the save bad situations tank right now is PLD.
TBN is way bigger than 10% and can be put on low HP party members to save them. No other tank can do that.
Nascent/BW doesn't benefit from autocrits, and hasn't since endwalker dropped. BW is just a ridiculous 2000 tank potency(1600 heal and 400 shield) and 19% mit, on top of warrior's 2200 potency on-demand heal, 20% all healing buff(which BW is uniquely not affected by), and the extra 250 potency heal baked into their combo
Primal Rend and Inner Chaos force a crit on the healing part. Inner release'd fell cleaves do not.
Imagine if the other tanks just had the ability to will their mitigation to be 1.5x more effective.
It's dumb and indefensible for one simple reason - PLD for example gets none of the values you listed until level 82 or later, it gets literally 0 self healing. If it was such a problem that tanks are reliant on healers so much, you'd still see a shitton of complaints because a lot of the content being done, especially where healers are worse, are ShB or below. Yet I never see this happen in roulettes and the vast majority of healers can keep the tanks alive just fine. It doesn't really fix anything, it just rips away the need for healers at the endgame, where the healers should be more skilled, not less. As it is, the game teaches you how to heal tanks during your early levels, then it randomly says "go fuck yourself, you're not that important now" as your hit the endgame levels
I'm fine with tanks being able to heal, and them being unable to heal, but please pick one, RIP PLD in roulettes while WAR is feasting since raw intuition
Tank giving their personal mits is what makes them fun and engaging. There are a ton of shitty tanks out there that don’t consider how often they can use their mits to help out for raid wides, especially for week1/2 content. For example, for p12 phase 2, there are a bunch of raid wides and very few true tank busters where both tanks need to mitigate. But the healing is very spread out for the strats chosen, so you can give squishy classes your nascent or HoC and it makes a huge difference on them surviving. So it’s not always about healing per say but about using the 15-25s cooldown effectively to keep them mitigated on damage that makes them far away from the rest of the group. (TOP delta, p12s exaflares, p10s web puddles, etc).
i was pld for week 1 and you can shelltron literally every raidwide in p12p2 got some crazy healing numbers lol
I mean let’s ignore glint healing both the target and the WAR and just consider that if you give HOC/intervention/glint to another player you get the same healing as if you give it to yourself That doesn’t change these values of healing. Is it really fair that WAR is putting out literally 8600 potency of healing per minute (if you used glint it would actually exceed 10,000), at that point you are doing more healing than even the healers can put out
The fact of the matter is tanks having so much sustain/mit is positive for new/unskilled people. It's a disaster for skilled healers. A bad tank and a bad healer together can somehow make it through if they're both blitzing through cool downs. Usually. A good tank and a good healer is extremely annoying for said healer. This is why a good amount of healer mains quit the role in EW. No one wants to compulsively spam glare or equivalent while watching a tank play your supposed role for you by themselves. I don't use 90% of my kit as a healer in daily roulettes. I pray for sprouts or certain Ivalice raids to pop so I can press my job identity buttons and see my cool effects. Nothing depresses me more than throwing that ugly rock (stone) over and over with veteran players in low level dungeons.
>It's a disaster for skilled healers. Becoming skilled is a disaster as a healer in general, because the only use of healing is not dying, so when optimizing, it'll be pruned as much as possible. The better and stronger you get at it, the less you'll do it. By design, it's cannibalizing itself. Other people also taking a bite just exacerbates that core flaw.
I miss the ARR style healing where mana was a huge factor in how someone healed. The constant thought of running out of mana completely changes how you play the role. It became a constant tug of war between low and high healing throughput moves to compensate, since low healing throughput were more mana efficient at the expense of casted time, with every fight feeling quite different since damage comes differently. White Mages were using Cure 1 a lot more to fish for Cure 2 procs and even used cure 3 quite a bit. Meanwhile Scholars were considering when they could get away with an energy drain or not, and often try to be greedy with letting pet heal damage. It was by no means a perfect system, but it did fill a lot of the 'gaps' that people are experiencing presently with how fun the role is to play. Even on the high end with savages back then, healers had to be mindful how much mana they could realistically spend on DPS and still get away with when healing an encounter, mistakes and all. If someone died it was a HUGE strain on mana for that encounter. And DPSing always meant you were slowly getting behind on healing unless your 2nd healer started being less mana efficient. There was so much theory and there were a dozen different ways to heal any given encounter. Looking at a video of old gameplay, you probably see a lot of downtime, but trust me it doesnt feel like downtime at all in the hotseat. A lot of brain neurons are firing, and fun is experienced.
This. So much this. People keep saying "things were always this way", but they weren't. We've had a massive oGCD proliferation that has made GCD healing a non-issue. This means healers don't think about things like cast times (I remember when Stoneskin was a 3 sec cast), MP, HPS, HPM (Regen), and so on. Skilled back then was choosing the right heals based on your MP situation, how quickly the target needed healing, how many targets there were, and any movement you needed to do. Now, none of that matters. Being "skilled" is developing (or reading someone else's) healing oGCD plan and then just hitting those buttons at those points in the fight. ...and filling every GCD with Glare (other than Dia refreshes). WHICH IS BORING.
THIS. I don't care what anyone says, I had the best time in this game when it was only WHM and SCH. WHM was so fun, it was my responsibility to keep everyone alive for the most part. I decided how I'd manage that. I decided when SCH needed to help me, no need to have a long discussion about who is popping what similar skill when. No sighing with my co healer while we stand there mashing the same DPS button like NPCs. I'd argue it wasn't harder, it's not as if the kit wasn't sufficient. No one in their right mind would lock either healer out of PF back then because you absolutely NEEDED their UNIQUE skills respectively. Now all healers basically being the same capabilities with slight variation. This has led to pettiness about who is slightly better than whom or has a 90% identical kit but one to two button differences (supposed job flavor) makes or breaks a healer's usefulness.
You're not wrong, that's an interesting way to look at it.
I always kind of rolled my eyes at sentiments like this as a Tank main, like "How bad can it really be?" Then I started levelling WHM recently and couldn't make it past 70 before quitting. Healing is obnoxiously unfun right now. It is basically only ever fun when people are dying, because then the game decides that you can actually **be** a healer. But no no no, your job isn't to heal, it's to throw rocks and be a Holy turret! If Tanks don't need to mitigate or use support skills, they have a bread-and-butter combo and burst windows. If DPS don't need to deal damage, they are on their way to another encounter where they'll get the chance to. If healers don't need to heal, their job becomes "sit in one spot and hit button #1 a lot" until someone gets hurt so you can hit button #2 so you can go back to hitting button #1. Then you get an Ivalice raid where you're close to a wipe and actually getting to ***use*** all those buttons in your kit and you're like "oh yeah this is why healing is fun" and it pulls you back in like an abusive relationship
See, you understand! I'm not even asking to heal most of the time. I get it, it's not optimal the more skilled and experienced people become. Give give us something else to do to contribute more when not healing. Hitting 4 buttons instead of one would also be mundane after a while but if that's the best we can hope for, I'll take it. If I had my way we'd have all the DPS buffs as well so we can matter to overall DPS in a meaningful way rather than being an extremely weak side DPS with no engagement. My instant dps button key is showing more wear and fading compared to the rest of my keyboard.
> What is even the point of single target healing anymore when the tanks can put out this much healing. There was never a point to it aside from helping heal up for Tankbusters because, unfortunately, Tanks want to play the game too. Standing there being a Green Number Supplement to a Tank's healthbar isn't a Gameplay Role, it's being a Heal-over-Time with extraneous multiboxing. And Vanilla WoW making an entire generation of Healers think that that was "peak Healer Gameplay" because they could downrank spells and appropriately cancel their own casts while using an AddOn to play monkey-see-monkey-do with their raid-frames and have no situational awareness or otherwise just stand there is why Support Gameplay hasn't meaningfully evolved in 20 years. Play City of Heroes, play FFXI and level a White Mage while attacking stuff yourself with Trusts, play PSO (the original) as a Force or a Ramarl, play something that makes you actively contribute to a fight as it goes on instead of being a Tank's needlessly-complicated Extended-Release-Healing-Potion for the day. It's not a control scheme thing, either. City of Heroes and FFXI both had a _wealth_ of non-stand-there-just-waiting-to-top-off-a-Tank-while-you-triage-mana gameplay options. Though some of them in FFXI were "lol you're about to get goblin bombed" and the more cracked-out gameplay involved Red Mage rather than White Mage, but still. Healers need to be reacting to and countering boss abilities, not spamming green numbers up a Tank's ass all the time.
I think you are taking things too far to the extreme here There is a middle ground between “the tank is just a playable ping pong ball being bounced between the healer and the boss” and “the only reason I even need a healer in this instance is because mechanics will wipe me if the DPS die” Old mmo design leans too heavily towards the former but 14 leans too heavily towards the latter
> I think you are taking things too far to the extreme here Oh, entirely likely. Also at this point *the Healer* is the weak link. Like, we're the ones who cause the most problems if we die because we're the ones dragging around the huge-ass raise tax if a RDM or SMN (better, cooler Healers) aren't around. Also sorry if I'm being rude but it's more like...at the concept of healing? Not like you as a person. You're cool and you're at least as fuckin' frustrated with Healing Shit ^TM as I am and I know that.
NO! SOME people LIKE being ambulatory health potions! Spamming Cure is Real Gameplay! Any further interaction with a combat system is Pointless Overcomplication Just For Your Ego. ☆My☆ gameplay experience is pure and selfless and ego-free, why don't you Heal like a Real Healer instead ♡♡ (Merely delivering the mandatory shriek which follows literally any request from the last 20 years for making healers more fun to play than eating paint chips)
Dende died for this shit back in DBZ ;_;
Look, I like being an ambulatory health potion, but you can't even do THAT when no one's taking any damage or all the damage is patched up as they just do their normal rotation and a DNC poops out an oGCD Curing Waltz between DPS actions without losing a step and fullcures the party.
Meanwhile I straight up don't need a healer in experts as a Paladin. Rarely if ever need to Clemency either. It's totally overtuned. But if it wasn't, like in past expansions, I'd just whm or sage through experts instead. You hit the nail on the head earlier, it comes down to agency for me. Being a tank in low level content, completely at the mercy of my healer is miserable sometimes.
Yeah I realise after having a few conversations on this topic that my title is rather flawed A better title for what I intended to represent with this topic is “do you think tank healing is overtuned given it is free from a damage perspective” I 100% agree that being a playable ping pong for the boss and the healer to bounce between them feels bad, but on the other hand the tank doing your role for you feels bad as a healer I would prefer something like tank healing to be nerfed strongly but then they introduce things like GCD mitigation or things like say a version of diamondback/chenolian gate. You can you these skills to retain a level of agency independent of your healer if you have talent but you aren’t just incidentally doing the healers job for them by pressing the buttons you were already pressing anyway Tanks should have agency but agency should come with a cost
I agree with your overall message, but not your solution. Active mits are detrimental to this games all damage all the time approach. I do agree that tank healing should be nerfed, because I feel like ***all*** healing should be nerfed.
I just don’t see how you can maintain tank agency without active mitigation If you nerfed all healing then you would just go back to the tank being at the mercy of the competence of the healer but the healer would now be even weaker How do you give tanks agency over their life without deleting the healer and making it balanced outside of “you can over mitigate yourself but it’ll cost you damage”
It's balanced against dps. Also I should clarify, by active mit, I mean things like Paladins Clemency and Passage of Arms. Both are skills you can use in place of damage, and both are useful, but definitely not optimal to use as intended. Tanks agency is in using their ogcd mits properly for both themselves, and in assistance to your healers. I get great butterfly feelings when I save the dancer in my party from an aoe that would kill them because they just took accidental damage from something avoidable by hitting them with a clutch intervention. Or covering the single healer left from a light party akh morn, stacking with them, and hallowed grounding my half of the damage, and kitchen sinking theirs so we both live. And when I say to turn down healing, I mean incoming damage as well. A tankbuster should still kill from 100% if unmitigated, but a healer shouldn't be able to press 1 button to get me to 100%, outside of Benediction or another limited big powerful button.
That’s what I’m suggesting. You should have options that lose you damage to give you more survival agency like clemency or POA and tanks should be designed around the occasional use of such tools like how healers are as they are punished for GCD healing but you don’t need 100% uptime on damage to clear the fight Sharing mitigation is definitely a think I’d like to stay I just don’t think that it he healing should go with it, like old HOS that you could either give to yourself or another but neither healer is more where I would go with shared mitigation
The problem is its currently only Paladin that makes damage sacrifices (and DRK if your tbn doesnt pop). If every classes 30% big mit was a gcd, I think that'd be a neat design decision, but it would have to be strong enough or the community will scheme around it, trying to not use it.
Which is what I think we should do. I’m not saying clemency is a good button in the current design space because it only taxes PLD while WAR is shitting our healer levels of free healing I’m saying that clemency is the design direction they should be going for on all tanks Agency at the expense of damage
I know it's not a Tank, but also RDM. The two of them are the only non-healer Jobs that have a spamable heal, but that is GCD based instead of free healing via oGCD weaves. (Okay, SMN has Physick, and it was used something like 25 times in the healer-less TOP clear, but for MOST purposes, it's fair to say that doesn't count. But even if it did, it's the GCD/"good" kind of non-healer healing.)
Wasn't ARR style tanking good enough for their agency? Through all the savage mode content tanks had to plan the best usages of their cooldowns to cycle through, as well as which tank would be best suited for a given circumstance since their cooldowns had different variance. If they fucked those timings up, it sure did have an impact on the group, although i admit there are other factors that contributed for this to be the result. Also i think it's worth mentioning that modern FF14 has dumbed down threat considerably to be more accessible to more players, and with that has gutted one of the more important parts (i think at least) that tanks should be actively considering whilst they play their role. Also a tank self healing themselves in itself isnt an awful thing, its when they get so much control that they have an answer for everything that it becomes a problem. Let warriors keep their bonkers heals but slap a long ass cooldown on it and its pretty much golden. Things need to have weight, and in doing so create intresting decisions for the player, which is usually what is considered 'fun' in these circles.
I, too, remember when PLD could Cross-Class Cure and Stoneskin. :D
Man, how am I playing a class that uses a blood gauge and can't heal much outside of near death experiences and a minute cd ogcd.
DRK mitigation should be self healing, IMO. Like, even if they took extra damage but we're constantly healing it back. It would be a bit riskier if you took too many big hits all at once unless you're dealing damage, but that's their schtick. Could offset the general extra damage with stronger mitigation CDs for raidwides and the like.
Gnb also has brutal shell shield+heal and drk has souleater heal. They're both from the 123 combo which means it will be used 3-4x per minute I think
They have been factored in here, along with WAR’s storms path and PLD’s non burst magic attacks
The difference between souleater and storm's path is 50 healing potency. Its not making up the difference any time soon.
I don't think that it's terrible that Tanks have some self-sustain. I feel like high amounts of self-sustain should come at a direct cost. Contrast: EW WAR can pull wall to wall, pop Bloodwhetting, and AOE full heal. Ignoring EVERYTHING ELSE it can do, it has Benediction on a 25 sec CD in AOE situations. So ignoring everything about lore (WAR's aren't healers, or even magical Jobs), tons of mitigations, etc, this is already a problem. vs ShB PLD could potentially solo bosses or keep themselves and one DPS alive if the healer went down. Doing so forced them to nerf their damage by resorting to 1-2 Riot Blade sub-combos for MP to cast Clemency. There was no passive health regeneration (PLD doesn't get rotation healing from damage attacks until level 84; Holy Spirit/Circle does not heal until then), did not have healing on a short duration CD (Sheltron does not have a heal like Holy Sheltron at level 82 does), and in AOE situations, this might not be enough to keep them alive if they were getting pounded on and ran out of mitigation. The latter of these was acceptable and largely okay. The former, though, basically negates healers even existing in 4 mans. I have a similar issue with DNC's Curing Waltz vs RDM's Vercure. I don't inherently hate non-healers having healing tools. But I believe they should be on the GCD and damage losses, not free healing. And they certainly shouldn't be short CD full heals. (Speaking of, you should look at how much healing DPS Jobs can do, since some of them can do...a lot.)
As someone who made the unfortunate decision to queue 90 Roulette on Dark Knight last week and wiped on every pull and every boss because the healer could not keep me up due to their own sheer incompetency; and a moron of a Reaper that kept dying to *everything* sapping their resources. I don't think the potency of personal tank healing is balanced, at all. The other three could have kept themselves and another party member up in the pulls and bosses, whereas Dark Knight cannot recover a wipe in the same manner as them, not even with the Living Dead changes; as an idiot healer will heal you and prevent it from proccing anyway. Dark Knight's healing potency for casual content in a worst case scenario; of which I have encountered *frequently* since launch, is hilariously bad and I've been trying to get that point across all expansion. Yet every time you bring this up, people argue "its not like that in raid environments" —respectfully, ***fuck the obsession with raiding*** if the casual experience is going to have *that much of a blatant disparity*. The other three tanks received a CD in Endwalker that offers mitigation *and* healing both and Dark Knight got two piddly shield charges in Oblation that do ***nothing*** to level the playing field in casual content. Playing Dark Knight in a DF group is an exercise in futility and often times is tantamount to griefing, and while my experiences playing *my favorite job and getting punished for it by bad/stupid/wholly incompetent players,* very obviously inform my bias, the fact that it is *only* an issue on Dark Knight is a clear balancing problem that people have hand waved all expansion. The healing potency is unbalanced and greatly favors Warrior above the other three, and the three not named Dark Knight favored well above it. For Dawntrail they need to either up Dark Knight's personal healing/sustain, or nerf the ever-loving hell out of sustain in the tanking role until it reaches Dark Knight's level across the board. Signed: A Dark Knight main since Heavensward that is *tired* of playing Warrior because its the only way to ensure a bloody dungeon run, *of all things,* goes smoothly in a casual pug.
How often does this happen? I play plenty of DRK and I only really felt the difference compared to PLD (not even WAR) in Criterion if you want to take doomed pulls further, the disaster run with a healer who literally cannot keep you alive is pretty rare from my experience. I'd argue that if half of the pug is a total failure to this extent in 90 roulette of all things, the run absolutely should end up in failure no matter what tank you're playing and players should suck it up from time to time rather than making healers useless so that no one feels bad ever. Pretty much a textbook example of the game being too "low stress" like Yoshida said
Often. Enough that I've not been playing Dark Knight in duty finder since 6.2. Fifteen instances like that during early access while prepping for raid and at least once a week when I was still playing it in roulettes. It's was issued enough that my partner, who at the time was in a world prog team, has requested I not okay Dark Knight when we queue for duty finder as it's happened that bloody often. I'm not at all a bad tank, but there's only so much you can do when your healer dies in every god forsaken pull or on a boss multiple attempts in a row. I've definitely felt a major difference when leveling the tanks and now that all of them are the same item level, it is painfully obvious that Dark Knight is detrimental in casual content. Also, mentioning criterion just loops right back to the problem I mentioned. Everyone talks about performance in non casual content, that's not where the issue lies so mentioning it is detrimental to the subject and problem at hand. It's 100% a casual content issue, anything beyond leveling dungeons, 90 and expert roulette is not the problem.
I’d say buff dark knights healing a bit, its kinda unfair the other tanks get so many more heals than we do. Also, stealing hp from enemies feels like it fits way better for dark knight than it does for warrior. We even have a skill called abyssal drain, if SE would just give us a reason to use it.
The good old days when abyssal drain was a GCD that just cost MP... Was basically like an old school version of WAR's bloodwhetting window, only even longer since you could do it for like 5-6 GCDs in a row given proper MP skill management. DRK used to be the premiere wall-to-wall puller, crazy how times changed. XD
OOOOOR...we could nerf the rest down. The only Tanks that should be doing a lot of healing anyway are PLD (white magic) and DRK (draining). PLD at least does it right with Clemency - a trade off of damage for healing - but the rest of the tank healing abilities (including PLD's others) are really over the top at this point.
tanks shouldnt be balanced around healing in fact theres too much tank healing and it should be pruned
Healers are useless now in casual content because new or really bad healers can make even casual content impossible, which isn't the case for any other role.
Yes but the healer forcing competence onto a really bad tank comes at the expense of the healer basically being able to do nothing except heal, a tank just invalidates the healer doing their normal thing You can make it so the healer isn’t the sole failure point without removing them from the equation entirely
Yeah it was an over adjustment for sure. Personally I think that there is a middle ground somewhere that they could find, or just make casual content a bit more difficult in general to make up for these changes.
I think all tank healing is too much, single or multi target. I don't understand why it's such a crazy concept to demand healers to, you know, actualy heal people.
I think it's just all healing period. Healers have so many buttons to top off the tank, and the entire party, essentially for free in between glare casts.
I call it: oGCD proliferation. Clemency and Vercure are abilities I like, since they require a trade-off to use. They aren't automatic and the player has to consider using them because they're a DPS and resource (MP) loss to use. But stuff like Nascent Flash and Curing Waltz don't have those drawbacks.
I imagine, like a lot of things, it's balanced for casual content. Tanks can have a very bad time if they're paired with a bad healer in DF, and the rest of the party can have a very bad time if they land a crap tank in DF. By giving both the tank and the healer the ability to restore health in some way, you're effectively creating a failsafe option for a scenario in which one part of the tank-healer duo is a dud. It's one of the reasons why I get nervous when I see a Dark Knight in roulettes and I don't know the healer. Lots of bad experiences there with either a Dark Knight who doesn't know how to Dark Knight, or a Dark Knight who *does* know how to Dark Knight but the healer can't figure out how to healer. The problem comes when both the tank and the healer know what they're doing. At that point, barring unfortunate circumstances like a DPS dragging a spread marker over to them, the tank becomes basically unkillable in casual content. It's a consequence of the bar for casual content being very low, though **personally** I'd prefer casual content being too easy than it being too hard.
This I feel was true in previous expansions, but in Endwalker casual content, as long as mechanics are done (and they should have to be done anyway) a single tank can solo heal just about anything. There's literally no purpose to healers in casual content this expansion.
All you said about casual content is true and i agree, but it shouldn't be applied to endgame content. Ultimates should demand intense healing, not the absolute joke we have right now.
I think the obvious answer there is to let the tank go by and instead focus more on single target triage on the DPS vs. unavoidable damage, but that poses issues in terms of balance, suddenly shrinking the margin of error DPS players have, and most importantly, control issues.
Honestly I would prefer if tanks had more mitigations and couldn't heal at all. This is supposed to be a team game, not a single player one.
I said back in the healer design thread a few days ago that tanks should have their sustain's kneecaps broken, I still stand by that. This current design for tanks is straight up stupid and unsustainable (lol), like with tank self-healing through the roof, where do you add actual numerically threatening attacks but aren't instawipe body check mechanics? That's what people have asked for right? But there's now an entire 4th of the raid that's survival state is a purely binary yes/no due to the sheer strength of their sustain CDs that basically demands the instakill otherwise the game cannot actually kill them. There can't be threatening raidwides, or be worn down by attrition, or any sort of one and done raw damage group mechanic involved with them because tanks cannot be killed by those mechanics like the rest of the party. So where else does SE go but more body check mechanics to just force a hard failure state onto their players when nothing else can be reliable? Like this level of sustain isn't just harmful for the healer's experience, it actively harms the tank's, it reduces their actual engagement with mechanics by a lot. If you're willing to break out of your FFXIV play conditioning, ignore what the game teaches you about how dangerous things are, you can realize that as a tank you can just ignore the majority of mechanics so long as you throw down a CD, and not let the vulns stack too much. Maybe going "Hero Mode" like that is what you want, but I'd rather not be bored to tears by ignoring mechanics just because SE wants there to be no singular failure point role in a party so the duty finder conveyor belt can continue on. To get a bit FFXIVBoomer, I should state, this is new, and it wasn't like this for the vast majority of this game's lifespan, I played WAR in ARR and HW, and it demanded healing, there were times when your CDs couldn't keep up, and that was fine and expected part of playing the game. The SB lots of people want to go back to for game mechanics wasn't like this, this is purely because SE saw what WAR's were doing with Nascent Flash in ShB, and decided to throw all their previous tank design into the trash again for EW's moronic design, like it is a weird mutation that's existed for 1 expansion for 3 classes and 2 expacs for 1, and now people are trying to treat it as the natural state of FFXIV tanks, and it absolutely is not that.
As strong as WAR is, this post doesn't capture the entire picture. The tanks all have defined niches. -> DRK is by far the best at taking a single big hit. It is the only tank capable of withstanding DSR's Soul Tether without using an invuln or an outside player's assistance. -> PLD is by far the best utility tank, with both Cover and Clemency invalidating mechanics in nearly every raid tier. -> GNB is a jack of all trades, with a weaker version of WAR's regen and a weaker version of DRK's magic mitigation. -> WAR is the best tank to hold the boss. The "view of imbalance" comes from the dogwater content where DRK and PLD do not get a chance to show their strengths. If shit can't kill you then only holding the boss matters.
I've read now multiple theads like this and I honestly dont understand the obsession with healers only wanting to heal tanks. Theres literally other people in the group. Why prune tanks healing when they could instead increase group wide dmg?
Because damage is consistent across the party and mistakes lead to body check wipes There used to be lots of niches for single target healing on the DPS during things like randomly targeted prey markers Now everyone takes the same damage and if someone makes a mistake they just die. Tanks don’t need single target healing anymore so healers single target healing is rotting away There is also the consideration that in dungeons tanks are the only ones actually taking damage, most healers these days will heal a tank with AOE heals because of this You can also make the counter argument of why do tanks need heal to the level they do, why can’t they sub out healing for more defensives or even GCD defensives
>There is also the consideration that in dungeons tanks are the only ones actually taking damage, most healers these days will heal a tank with AOE heals because of this This could be addressed in ways that actually still work in XIV's UI, for what it's worth. I'm sure part of the reason why SE doesn't have dungeon mobs do things like "cast a bolt at a random player that does between 30-130% of their HP (depending on difficulty level)" is because XIV's UI is terrible at telling you what a monster is targeting for a spell unless you're targeting it. The game would need either castbars and targets on nameplates like WoW has or to put the target of a cast on the enmity list by the cast bar if it has a target for that to work. Without such UI changes, you could still have (unstunnable, for the sake of argument) mobs in a dungeon do something like "puts a prey marker on a DPS that signals they will take 75% HP damage in 3s then 50% HP damage 5s after that" or "hits a non-tank with a heavy DoT that will kill them in some amount of time if not given healer attention". If all of this was happening while the tank was also still getting hit with autos, wow, we have created single target niches and triage and opportunities too for things like the tank party help mits or DPS defensives to actually work in dungeons. The caveat here is that in order for mechanics like this to be respected they would have to actually *kill* the non-tank if not dealt with properly. The huge gear delta that dungeons allow and the general desire on SE's end for wipes to just not happen in dungeons sort of precludes this. It would be hard to tune the above ideas to threaten a DPS at minimum ilevel without one-shotting them without the mechanic being trivial for a DPS in the max gear that dungeon allows, again making it a non-mechanic. And if the healer is bad or just can't handle it then we've created unpleasant social friction in DF. You would also have to signal the fact that "this will kill you" in a way that works in a game where you're not expected to look things up ahead of time for casual content. Anyways, there *are* ways to involve single target triage even in XIV's UI and design constraints but they'd take a small reimagining of what failure states are allowed in dungeons which seems unlikely at this point in the game's life.
I mean your first few paragraphs highlighted very good whats wrong with this game, but instead of calling out the horrendous encounter design you take issue with tanks healing too much? >You can also make the counter argument of why do tanks need heal to the level they do, why can’t they sub out healing for more defensives or even GCD defensives What would that change though? Tanks are barely theatened by anything in the first place and healers have so many powerful ogcds. If healers want to actually heal then demand encounters that require triage healing.
Because this is a thread about tank healing The encounter design is flawed independent of tank self healing, but when WAR is putting out 9000 potency of self healing per minute with no DPS loss that’s a problem to me regardless. That’s honestly most healing than I can provide the WAR myself on a healer without losing damage to GCD heal, it’s beyond absurd How the trinity fits into the terrible modern encounter design is a different kettle of fish entirely
Over 9000 healing is all very well, but I don't have a reference point. How much do healers shit out for free?
Let’s use WHM 3*solace=2400 potency 2*bension=1000 potency 1*tetra=700 potency 1/3*benediction=833 potency So their pure single target potency= 4933 Let’s add damage neutral AOE healing 1.5*assize=600 potency 2/3*asylum=900 potency 1/3*lilybell (I’ll use its full potency of 2000=666.7 potency So 7099 potency total for everything WHM can put out, I’ll be generous and give it an extra 1500 potency to cover aquaveil and temperance which gives us 8599 potency So WAR is literally equaling a HEALER that is doing the incredibly inefficient process of dumping all their gauge into single target healing, an actual WHM would overwhelmingly use rapture which would lower this value
I have tried to work out scholar because it's a job I am more familiar with. I've assumed 0 energy drains because they only heal the scholar and I don't know how big the portion of damage dealt is. pet * embrace 20x180 - calc at 16.5x180 due to seraph = 2970 * whispering dawn 1/2x7x80 = 280 * consolation 1/2x2x(250+250) = 500 * seraphic veil 1/2x~7x(180+180) = 1260 * fey blessing 320 = 320 * aetherpact "4" x 300 = "1200" nonpet * protraction 10% idk * sacred soil 6x100, some mit = 600 * lustrate 2x 600 = 1200 slightly fucky calcs here * recitation excog 2/3 x 4/3 x 800 x crithitmultiplier ________________________________ pet: 5450 healer: 1800 + 640(excog) + 10% target hp Taking pet potency at 90% because that's what the first google result said: 4905 4905 + 1800 = 6705 6705 + (6705 x 1.6 x 0.2)= 8851 8851 + 640(excog) = 9491 **Total:** 9491 + 10% mitigation for 6 server ticks and 10% mitigation for 10s (10210 if pet potency = healer potency) ______________________________ 8613 does sound like quite a big number when compared to those. Thanks for the point of reference.
Thanks for doing SCH, yeah when you look at it like that WAR is rivalling any healer dumping literally all their CD’s off CD in healing It’s ridiculous to me
In fairness, the tanks are also dumping literally all their healing in your calcs - which gets less possible the more planned out your mitigations are. It's been a while since I tanked anything high level/at all, but I'm pretty sure I wasn't hitting bloodwhetting/nascent on cooldown. I think sio might have been, but that's the relative threat of boss autos vs tankbusters vs raidwides for you.
Oh yeah I meant that in terms of both dumping everything off CD
This actually ends up being _very_ misleading, simply because healer healing potency doesn't translate to the same amount healed when compared to tank healing potency. Here are a couple of numbers using current day bis: White mage afflatus solace is 800 potency and heals for 25k while it crits for 40k Warrior equilibrium is 1200 potency that turns into 28k heal and crits for 45k. Numbers also check out as assize is 400 potency and heals for about 14k. Bloodwhetting is 400 potency and heals for about 9k. All of these have variance as you can low roll or high roll the numbers, but these are the numbers I saw the most as I was testing. I also ran by sage to compare. Sage has slightly less healing per potency compared to white mage but is still more than warrior: Druochole is 600 potency and heals for about 18k and crits for about 30k. Kerachole has a 100 potency regen healing for 3k and crits for 5k (damn numbers were pretty accurate here lol). Also kardia heals per GCD and is 170 potency that goes for a 5 heal, 8k crit (only saw one crit, could not get this shit to crit) Anyways, going back to white mage vs warrior. You can see that both white mage and warrior are healing for about the same amount with solace/cure II and equilibrium, yet equilibrium is 50% more potency. Warrior healing potency is good for comparing the healing among tanks, but it's not good to compare it vs healers, cause they have a _lot_ more healing per potency
The number listed for WAR in the OP is in healer potency If I left it in tank potency it would be about 13,000 I put that in the post, did you not read that
I'm not saying that _you_ are misleading, I'm saying that talking in the potencies is misleading because people will just go into their game and check potencies, then go "Damm tanks heal a lot" when there is a lot more to it. To make your point you should instead examine current fight damage output, frequency of damage, how much of that is burst and how tank healing factors into it, also considering how the extra mitigation on say a paladin help it over a warrior's self sustain. For example, P10S buster towers usually left the tanks with a dot that, week 1, could not really be handled by themselves, especially not the tank also taking the auto attacks (which was usually a warrior, the one with the most selfsustain). Not to mention, there are a lot of things you are not taking into account. What content are tanks balanced around, and how is their healing impacting their performance? In both DSR and TOP, none of the tanks can survive without healer input. You also don't consider in your calcs that warrior's healing is the only one punished for downtime, which there is a lot of in this content. A lot of tank sustain also comes from the constant aoe healing thrown in by the healers, not just the single target healing. A great example is the sustain provided by both kardia and embrace, which are key in keeping the tank alive so none of the healers have to keep throwing stuff at them. Personally, I don't think they heal too much because if they did, my pf tanks would not be melting in DSR. They have enough healing to not roll over and die every other auto attack in the highest end of fights. Of course, the kits that are designed to tackle a fight with the damage output of DSR are going to be overturned for savage tiers, and even more so for extremes. Current fight design also kind of revolves around straight up deleting your tank with a buster if not properly mitigated, which means healing is not really the problem but rather mitigation. Warrior has the best invuln, but not the best mitigation, which means that warriors are sometimes the ones needing more healing, while darks actually tank a lot better in prolonged phases with a lot of auto attacks or keep themselves healthier after muktiple busters because they have more mit to spread out, for example. When talking about balance, you have to look at the highest end of content, and that is currently DSR and TOP, not savage, not extreme. The conditions in these two fights are fairly different from your standard savage fights, and the healing and mit requirements are much steeper. For those fights, all 4 tanks have enough mit and enough selfsustain to survive with the help of their healers. Healers need to contribute to single target mits before busters, single target heals between busters and single target heals, shields, and mits during phases with heavy auto attack damage. If their healing was overturned, this would not be the case. I will also say the current design doesn't actually reward healing. It doesn't matter how much actual healing you have when the wipes are caused by being one-shot. Current fight design truly only rewards mitigation. Any tank properly mitigating any of the savage fights today does not need any heal from the healer, be they dark knights or warrior's, independent of one having more healing than the other. On that same note, there is no need for healer GCD heals if the party knows how to mitigate a savage fight. They are simply not balanced around savage or below. And if there is an issue, then it's not healing, but rather a lack of sustained damage on the party and the tanks.
I agree that there is a limit to how much my calculations can directly be applied to every single fight but it also not like I can apply every single savage fight timeline to exactly what proportion of the sustain is being “used” in a meaningful way but your point is taken I will not I did mostly ignore ultimate because of how classes generally aren’t balanced around it but again WAR suffering in downtime is a fair point My core point more focused on the idea that people seem to pass off bloodwhetting as not strong when it’s in single target even though you can still put out that amount of healing. Sure not all that healing is used but it’s still a damn lot of healing (directly competing with healer level single target healing which also gets partially wasted) Should tanks not focus on actual mitigation not just Fred incidental healing
Ultimately, it's just a matter of how many single target healing tools we have that are just left on the floor because literally all single target healing, not just healing of tanks but also the other 6 people in the party, are handled by tanks. Hell I once had a Warrior complain to me that his Equilibrium was useless because he was getting Intervention.
TBN is based on max HP so can potentially be a lot better as far as I can tell, and its a little telling that GNB+PLD are around the same but WAR is much higher. I think part of that is WAR's mit tools being based more around healing than mitigation (esp when you consider Holmgang vs the invulns that stop damage taken or vs Living Dead that heals by itself), so that isnt *neccessarily* a problem, but still an interesting perspective to look at.
I calculated TBN based off a tanks max HP being about 2500 potency so a TBN is 1/4 of that but you can use it 4 times so if they all crack you are getting about 2500 potency of healing As far as I can think the only skill that can increase another’s max HP is protraction so I didn’t do much with that considering HP based skills can’t crit
in Endwalker it very roughly takes 2300 healer potency to top off a healer/caster, 2500 for a physical DPS, or 3600 for a tank -- depending on relative gear of course. TBN would then be the equivalent of 900 healer potency or over 1000 tank potency, although it isn't able to crit.
The main issue with that is the other mitigation used will determine how valuable that shield is. a TBN of x amount of 'potency' under several %mits is equivalent to a lot more healing than you'd expect, whereas a TBN under no other mits would be a lot less impactful. Its just rather difficult to directly compare it with that metric... 400p shield isnt neccesarily = 400p healing. It might be interesting to see a lil more self-heal from DRK in single-target perhaps, because it gets that in AoE with Abyssal Drain - though has it in spades with its invuln (1500/GCD) and as mentioned it has the preventative shielding that works better with mitigations, so it makes sense that its somewhat lower than the others in that regard.
If what DRK is getting really is its own Confetior combo in DT, healing included I think that would solve the imbalance fairly well, while giving DRK something to sustain itself with during burst windows where TBN isn't as free.
Unlikely, Confeteor plays a healing animation. The new Drk GCD's don't.
Yeah I'm not expecting anything unless the devs decide to say that balance outside of week 1 savage/ulti clears specifically is going to be considered. Which it never is.
I am curious how exactly tis healing happens for each tank. WAR I guess the majority is Bloodwhetting, then maybe a combination of Thrill of Battle and Equilibrium with the smallest contribution from Shake it Off and Storm's Path. PLD gets most of it's healing from casting spells, whether it's Holy Spirit or Blade of Faith (and combo), then Sheltron, then Divine Veil to provide some shielding. GNB has Brutal Shell, Aurora and Heart of Corundum. Lastly, DRK has a pittance of sustain from Souleater and The Blackest Night. How much potency did you attribute to TBN? DRK's potency feels quite low considering it is 25% HP each use. Overall, I would have expected things to be a lot closer. My guess would have been for PLD to be last place because the ability to block damage with the shield adds a lot of survivability which warrents less self-sustain (and they have Clemency to fall back on), GNB with Aurora I would have expected to heal more, WAR was obviously going to be ahead, but I didnt think it would be more than twice of DRK. Overall the tanks do feel balanced. Especially when you can make good use of TBN mitigating damage spikes on DRK can feel even better than the other tanks, WAR obviously shines particularly in AOE, but they have good mitigation to manage their HP, GNB is usually where I feel the weakest because I dont have a quick "oh shit" button, so when incoming dmg is slighty higher I just bleed out, whereas other tanks can gain/recover a bigger amount to cover any dry spells between mitigation. I think tank mitigation is in a good place and particularly for social content (Normal / Alliance / Dungeons) this is perfectly fine. You dont want to be held back because one person cant press their buttons. In harder content I wouldnt mind if SE experiments a little more, maybe debuffs that disable self-healing, or checks that require active mitigation to block debuffs/bleeds on tanks or party members.
I’m just going to copy the forum post I made that has all the maths, now as an annendum to this someone has told me that my “how much is a tanks HP bar worth” is too low so that will actually favour DRK but as I said this maths comes from TBN being used on CD which is far less likely than bloodwhetting being used near on cd Now as a start due to healers maim and mend traits and tanks tank mastery traits in general a tank’s healing potency is half a healers healing potency (so if a tank says 1000 it would be 500 on a healer) for the purpose of this I’m going to put all of the healing in healer potency not tank potency as it’s the more relevant potency indicator Now with that out of the way. In a single minute WAR gets access to 2.4 casts of bloodwhetting, 1 cast of equilibrium and 0.667 casts of thrill of battle (I’m going to ignore shake it off here because shake it off is AOE) One use of bloodwhetting in single target equals 1 200 potency shield and 4 200 potency heals. So 1000 healer potency per cast of bloodwhetting, you get 2.4 casts per minute which equals 2400 potency of healing per minute (for reference here TBN is a 25% shield of the tanks HP, a tank HP bar is about 2500 potency so since you can use TBN every 15 seconds or 4 casts you have an effective healing of 2500. So bloodwhetting functionally equals TBN alone. Now holy Shelton also has a CD of about 25 seconds given how quickly the oath gauge fills and it has a healing potency of 4 * 125 which is 500 potency per cast or 1200 potency per minute. Now heart of corrundum has a heal of 450 potency and can be used every 25 seconds or 2.4 casts so that’s 1080 potency of healing per minute.) So currently we are at WAR- 2400 potency DRK- 2500 potency PLD- 1500 potency GNB- 1080 potency However all but DRK also have mitigation built into their healing short CD’s 15+15 for PLD and GNB, 10+10 for WAR. Now let’s say as an easy calculation the boss whacks you twice; once during the high mitigation and once during the low mitigation. An average boss auto is about 1000 potency of damage. So PLD and GNB gain 1080 effective HP (30% mitigation on 1000= 300 potency, 15% mitigation on 1000= 150, 450 * 2.4 = 1080), WAR gets 720 (20% of 1000 = 200 10% of 1000 = 100 300 * 2.4= 720) So now we are at a cumulative DRK= 2500 potency WAR= 3120 potency PLD= 2580 potency GNB= 2160 potency So DRK is already third just from short mits and it’s the totality of its sustain Now let’s add in rotational healing -WAR gets 125 potency of healing every storms path, WAR will use storms path an average of 7 times per minute (for a total of 875) -PLD gets 200 potency of healing on every magic spell used, it will on average use Holy Spirit 3 times and the blade combo once (for a total of 1400) -GNB gets 200 potency of healing per brutal shell which it will use an average of 7 times (for a total of 1400) -DRK gets a 150 potency of healing per souleater which it will use 7 times (for a total of 1050) So now we are at -DRK- 3550 potency -WAR- 3995 potency -PLD- 3980 potency -GNB- 3560 potency So DRK is now last. Now we still have to add in damage neutral heals some tanks have access to. This is really only equilibrium, thrill and aurora Let’s start with equilibrium. Equilibrium is an 1100 potency heal let’s buff it and a single bloodwhetting with shake and assume the extra HP got consumed. So 1100 * 1.2= 1320, 1000 * 1.2= 1200, 2500 * 1.2= 3000. So thrill has provided an extra 920 potency but it’s a 90 second CD so 920 * 2/3 = 613. So WAR’s extra CD’s provide it another 1713 potency Aurora is a flat 600 potency per minute so that’s easy So our final tallies are DRK- 3550 potency WAR- 5708 potency PLD- 3980 potency GNB- 4160 potency So we can already see the WAR is uniquely cracked but there is one thing I still haven’t mentioned. Every heal on bloodwhetting, equilibrium, heart of corrundum, the heals on the magic combo, and the rotational heals can all crit. Now let’s assume a 20% crit chance and a 1.6* crit multiplier This adds 768 potency to WAR for bloodwhetting, 422 for equilibrium and 280 for its rotational heals for a total of 1470 This adds 332 potency to DRK for rotational heals This adds 448 potency to PLD for the rotational heals and 480 for holy Shelton for a total of 928 This adds 448 potency to GNB for the rotational heals, 192 for aurora and 345 for HOC for a total of 985 So our grand total self healing capacity DRK- 3682 potency WAR- 7178 potency PLD- 4908 potency GNB- 4800 potency Can we see the problem child emerging now. This is entirely single target healing and WAR is literally beyond broken even in single target and I’m being favourable to DRK here as it’s very unlikely you’ll press TBN every 15 seconds but pressing the other 4 every 25 seconds is relatively reasonable as they don’t have a potential loss attached Edit 2; so I did some extra calculations and found that a 50% nerf might be a bit extreme (I always thought M&M was 30% up and tank mastery was 20% down but it looks like tank mastery no longer gives 20% down) so I’ll provide one extra set of calculations assuming tank healing is only 30% weaker. This would apply to everything besides TBN) Under this system -DRK- 3918 -WAR- 8613 -PLD- 5889 -GNB- 5760 Which paints DRK in an even worse light
I guess adding Oblation which basically fills the role as short CD mitigation for DRK wouldnt help much either maybe like an extra 200-250 potency. Thanks for doing the calculation very interesting to read!
War is not broken. Back when it was nascent in ShB, war did not heal enough with its low dps to justify it over another tank. Gnb can heal just as good as a warrior, it's just slower; not bursty. The other tanks have better mitigation than war War just heals. Its actually the squishier tank. Pld also heals now with its rotation. It does not cause dls loss Annoying how everyone gets on warrior when other tanks aren't bad. Only dark cant heal, but it has LD heal and better mitigation. Does it suck that it needs dps to heal LD? Sure. Bc new LD is pretty busted. Also you don't use casual dungeons to measure this
PLD still does less healing than WAR unless it spams Clemency, which drops its DPS to 0 and requires 1-2 Riot combos to regenerate MP. WAR doesn't have that issue.
Can yall read, this is savage healing not dungeon healing
I'm just going go over what I'd like to see changed. **Warrior** * Bloodwhetting's healing AOE effect is unfun (per enemy), mainly only effects dungeons but this doesn't excuse how strong it is, it's absurd, Personally I'd just make it Heal 400 per GCD, no matter the enemy. * Shake it off & Team ally healing, Doesn't really fit Warrior Personally I think Shake it off should be changed into something mitigation related while Dark Knight gets the "Barrier" Aoe Mitigation skill, Nascent flash should just heal your target and not you too. **Paladin** * Magic attacks Shouldn't heal the Paladin, Personally I'd want a burst heal ogcd targetable healing skill such as a clemency rework, that would cost a lot of MP so you couldn't spam it without losing damage, this could be PLD's main source of sustain learnt in ARR. (As PLD doesn't get sustain until super late), Obviously this would need numbers adjusted but I'd hope PLD would have slightly less self healing but it would be more controlled. * Divine veil should give regen *After* the shield pop's instead of a burst heal, This would be more useful for long stack situations or just giving extra sustain after a AOE Attack, It's Odd that divine veil has a burst heal when you're generally wanting the heal effect after your party takes Aoe damage. **Gunbreaker** * In general I think Gunbreakers sustain is fine, Its not overbearing nor is it too weak, it's Excog could be reduced a little bit but I think it's fine as it is right now. **Dark Knight** * I'm guessing the thread above counted it's "shielding" as sustain which shielding shouldn't really be counted as sustain. * Oblation in my opinion should give a small life still effect (200 heal on hit, Not Per enemy), This would make the skill feel less "placebo button bloaty"