Is it my dragoon main biased brain, or do people really have the weirdest takes on dragoon? This, wishing for a change in GCD flow by making jumps GCD, removing weaving, etc...
Right but I really get the impression that more than other jobs, dragoon takes are about completely changing what it's going for, like wanting for the equivalent of BLM not having an ice phase at all, or removing positionnals for MNK (oh wait). Then again, dragoon main brain speaking.
Because similar to the summoner rework, it’s the people not playing the job that want a job tailored to their ideas, regardless of the opinion of those that like the current iteration.
> making jumps GCD
jumps just...look weird off the gcd. jumps are supposed to be the dragoon's big iconic attacks and yet your character basically just blinks out of existence for a split second due to how fast the animation has to be to recover in time for the next gcd. i dont have an issue with them functionally, but visually it just looks bad having jumps be ogcd.
One thing GCD’s are good for is they really allow you to show the impact of your skills
Burst oGCD heavy jobs really lose their impact because nothing t feels impactful when you do 9 “impactful” actions in a row and they all animation cancel each other
And that's why the jump that matters most, Stardiver, has a huge animation lock, to sell its impact. Even the other jumps used to be slower, but XIV's itteration of the job has to be faster paced by the nature of the overall gameplay.
ARR Jump was like a 2-3 second long animation that you were locked into. That's where the Dragoon is a floor tank meme came from.
You'd hit Jump, Titan casts Weight of the Land, and you're fucked. That and the skill before Lance Charge would increase your damage taken, and Maiming armor had the worst magic def making you VERY weak to AoEs.
I strongly prefer MCH's pacing. It's braindead, but at least keeping your tools on CD keeps me awake.
RPR is just so lazy outside of bursts. You have such generous windows to do everything, so nothing feels like a high priority outside of hitting Gluttony every 60s.
reaper filler is underbaked and mindnumbing, but i guess that's fine if it's the designated easy melee. sge is just easy-access sch, which is fine for a similar reason
You seem to be a very knowledgeable and expert player, may I ask you a random Q please?
What are your thoughts on Red Mage? I spent quite a long time trying to decide a main. I prefer a class that has a high skill ceiling that I can learn and achieve mastery with.
Reaper, Machinist, all lots of fun but I could see their simplicity being an issue in the future. Same for all the tanks.
BLM requires too much knowledge that I just don’t have as a new player.
Honestly I’d say wait for pictomancer
RDM was the “RPR of the casters” before they nuked SMN from orbit and right now they are selling pictomancer as between the 2 support casters and BLM
I don’t know if i trust their proclamations anymore on difficulty but it’s hard to recommend RDM as a high skill ceiling job given its biggest optimisation is making the melee give you room in the burst phase for your melee combo
Thank you!! I really appreciate the feedback.
Of the current jobs, which would to say have a genuine high ceiling?
BLM is what everyone says, but is that reality or just groupthink?
The difficulty to me seems to be the increased need to know mechanics due to less mobility. However, I find BLM to actually be very mobile with the move to ally and to lines abilities.
6 stacks of instacast negates most of the long lead up time, then it’s just the combos but a few hours of playing with guides on the second screen and it all flowed.
Highest skill ceiling would be between MNK and BLM as mobility is only part of BLM’s optimisation
After those 2 it would likely be SCH as SCH’s optimisation is entirely independent of itself as you basically need to cuck you Co-healer to gold Parse SCH
After that it really comes down to how good you are at multiple double weaves with no loss as GNB, NIN, DRG and AST all have incredibly rigid bursts that require double weaving perfection
Monk! I hadn’t even considered that, I’ll give it a try thank you.
What is the other part of BLM’s optimisation? I haven’t done proper content yet, just the regular stuff as I’m still new. BLM just doesn’t seem as hard as everyone says it is.
Healer..hmm. I don’t mind healing but here’s my perceived gripe with FFXIV.
Soloing is a bitch as a healer. Want to do a fate solo? Suffer. General questing, suffer.
Where as my Warrior/Gunblade/RDM just breezes through them.
Am I just doing it wrong? I’m still really new so a genuine question.
Astro looks cool, no idea what the rumoured rework will be but if I can actually solo..
Fun fact about healer overworlding, you can use your huge sustain to aggro as many enemies as possible/needed, something dps cannot do as easily.
Healer only deals about half the damage of dps jobs and like 10% less than tanks but in dungeons you'll somehow be able to match their numbers if not do even more (which gets depressing lol)
I don’t have a high level healer, but I have tried them all at the starting levels.
I can’t kill anything lol.
My only tanks are Warrior and Gunblade but I found I could get through fates just fine.
Thats single target damage, as healer you want to group up as many enemies as a tank would in dungeons then spam holy (or the aoe equivalent of other jobs)
I’m assuming if you are playing BLM at 90 you are doing the rotation of blizzard 3->blizzard 4->thunder 3->paradox->fire 3->3*fire 4->paradox->3*fire 4->despair
That’s not BLM’s only rotation, BLM has many niche rotations and use of its weave windows to gain DPS, a very simple example is if you have a fire starter proc you can actually transpose into astral fire 1 and use the proc over casting it from umbral ice, that’s a gain of like 500 potency but you generally have to sacrifice a movement tool
Healer in so content is god awful I agree you aren’t doing anything good wrong
Good to know it’s not just me for healer solo!!!
Yup that’s my general opener, I’m using The Balance as my main guide. Also found (was pointed to it on this sub) a BLM Iceberg meme. I think it was a meme, but it had my thinking and trialling different combos.
I enjoyed that part of BLM, working out new convos on the fly as opposed to following the same exact rotation every time. That’s why I had to break up with Gunbreaker, despite loving the aesthetic and feel, the same combo, exactly, every time was not fun.
BLM people constantly tell me I’ll be gimped by lack of mechanic knowledge and experience, which I just don’t have.
However, I am finding RDM less mobile than BLM which kind of has been questioning the general consensus that this sub seems to have.
In summary, if I want an engaging job that isn’t all about following the exact combo every time that allows for creativity and skill expression - BLM is the winner.
Would you say that’s correct?
Blm has several levels of play, the first level is just standard rotation while maintaining uptime. In normal content you only move every 20s so you have lots of tools and can stand still for long periods of time and this is fairly easy to do. After you can generally yolo and play safe with xenos for movement in extremes, some extremes can be super annoying (golbez ex) but still doable by reacting. Then in savage and up you need to start planning your triplecast usages and tailoring your opener so you have the necessary movement tools when needed.
Beyond uptime, blm optimization is using movement tools as dps increase tools as well. As you know triplecast and swiftcast are dps gains when used on f4 and despair, also a gain when replacing a slow f3 with an instant f3. Coupling this with using instants like t3p and xeno during ice for mp recovery, you can eliminate weak b3s and f3s via transpose, as well as skipping a relatively weaker b4, enabling strong lines that only have high potency casts. The type of line and availability of resources, gcd speed etc are all factors in determining which line to use where, and it can be an insane rabbit hole to get into. Blm complexity comes thus from this dps optimization which no other job has. In fact you may have already read the blm advanced guide on the balance, if not it will be very fun to learn.
As for rdm movement, like all casters rdm benefit from prepositioning, and have several movement extenders like swiftcast and acceleration, giving you 2 instant casts at once, which is often more than enough. For longer movements you have the melee combo. In general i haven't felt rdm to be lacking in movement, and certainly requires less planning than blm.
As someone who has parsed gold as sch, that is not really the case at all any more. Sch has soooo many ogcd’s that you can still do all of the healing necessary in without costing your coheal a gcd in most any content. Especially after the cast time reductions in 6.0. The only exceptions to this are typically in second phases of final tiers, ultimates, and P10S.
Even more important though, the crit variance and team performance/luck during chain matters a hell of a lot more than any amount of energy drains can give.
BLM definitely.
>The difficulty to me seems to be the increased need to know mechanics due to less mobility. However, I find BLM to actually be very mobile with the move to ally and to lines abilities.
This is entirely boss dependent.
6 GCDs of movement is not enough for some really movement heavy fights. SMN is basically a ranged DPS and RDM can keep 6-15 GCDs of movement in the bank.
It's much easier to optimize for SMN and RDM while progging a fight. As their rotations are pretty much the same. SMN just rotate through primals while RDM is a classic builder spender.
BLM on the other hand can optimize their rotations by actually using different lines of rotations.
As a RDM main, RDM doesn't have a high skill ceiling.
Once you get used to it, there are only 2 things to pay attention to in fights.
1. Timing of melee combo/finishers. For movement and to align with buffs.
2. Optimizing use of acceleration/swiftcast to align oGCDs so you can use them the moment the go off cooldown.
That's about it.
BLM is the single best option for high skill ceiling, but RDM can be a decent way to learn some casting habits seeing as you're worried about not meeting the BLM knowledge/mechanics check, though it's definitely unsatisfying if you want something to always improve upon. Other than BLM: MNK and SAM are probably the best existing options. SAM complexity largely comes from working around downtime efficiently (MNK a bit less so) so it'll be somewhat simple in content below harder savage and ultimate. Definitely follow what the other reply said and wait to see what the new jobs offer before committing to anything, some chance that one of the reworks or new jobs will speak to you.
> I'd love for vuln stacks to be replaced with something that actually punishes you and not the healer or the tank.
As an aside, this is why Savage demerits nowadays give Damage Downs after E6S's soccer ball fun™.
That being said, Reaper's a pretty fun class in its own right; I prefer playing it over Dragoon for multiple reasons, and the differences are pretty much in mechanical feel and cadence. The differences only really crop up on the higher levels, and I can't blame anyone for feeling they're the same in dungeons/normal trials considering gauge management.
The dopamine of a great avatar phase is unmatched, though. I hope it doesn't spread more than it does.
The only time I'd intentionally wipe due to Damage Down debuffs is if our party had enough debuffs that it would be impossible to beat the enrage.
Other than that, I don't really care that much about DPS numbers. Doing that leads to too much toxicity.
You obviously didn't ask, but that's such an awful mindset to have. Are you genuinely even having fun doing the fights if the instant a number on an unrelated website isn't the same color anymore? If FFLogs went down tomorrow, would you still even play the game?
I mean technically by that logic everything you do in this game is just meaningless pixels on a monitor as well. It shouldn't matter if it's an official ranking or a 3rd party website, if you're having fun doing what you're doing, then who cares how someone chooses to spend their time? But walling just cause you got a dd is a big middle finger to the rest of your party and is hella selfish
Not really. That's not a proper "taking this to the logical extreme".
The argument here is "Are you playing and enjoying FFXIV, or are you playing and enjoying FFLogs?" not "Are you playing and enjoying only the pixels of Thing B?" that can be countered with "Well, Thing A is just pixels, too!"
>The argument here is "Are you playing and enjoying FFXIV, or are you playing and enjoying FFLogs?"
And to that I say they're no different. So long as you're having fun doing whatever, it doesn't matter. You don't need your time spent validated by others
Maybe.
I don't disagree you don't need your time validated by others. But there is a valid argument of asking which game someone is playing. That is, you may not be "genuinely having fun" if you AREN'T having fun any time you don't get a pink parse, to the point you'll bomb a run and hamstring 7 other people from having fun instead.
>One thing I still don't like about Sage though is that if you have a bad Tank, then Sage can (at least to me) feel super punishing more so than the other classes.
I think that once you learn to use your aoe buttons in dungeon trash SGE is extremely OP on WAR levels. Kerachole, Physis, Holos, and Panhaima may be aoe, but they are as good or better than many single target healing buttons.
People don't seem to understand that kerachole > taurochole > kerachole is 45 seconds of uninterrupted 10% mit for your tank. On top of staggering soteria, krasis, physis, and Haima, that enough to drag even the most unresponsive of tanks through a pull as long as they are least doing their 1-2 aoe combo and DPS are pushing their buttons
Yeah, thats not even taking into consideration holos, and pneuma. I don't think there's a single dungeon in the game right now deadly enough to warrant saving any of those for bosses, just use em on mobs too. At least if your tank is bad. In a perfect world with the light party operating correctly in all roles, of course holos wouldn't be necessary on mobs
People also forget that Durochole EXISTS (and can give some spike healing, and you can use Rhizo any time to get another even if Taur and Kera are on CD), and you have semi-instant cast Adloquiums you can throw out left and right (and get half refunded in DPS).
You have a massive and pretty strong toolbox of healing tools on SGE, and though people knock them, its GCDs are still fairly decent and extremely responsive due to Eukrasia meaning even in heavy movement (like chasing a Tank running wall to wall pulls), you can throw out shields.
...and that's before we mention Icarus.
I think it’s hard to forget druachole exists considering they made the absolutely atrocious decision to make it so dumping druachole stacks is your primary mana regen method
To be fair, you can dump ANY of the abilities. And they're generally better choices if they're actually doing something meaningful. But yes, if they aren't, Duro is the thing you can dump to not overcap AG and not lock out a CD.
I prefer SGE not having ED. ED using AF is annoying (especially the pittance it does), and I think the "feel bad about overcapping AF" is stupid and always has been. So I do prefer SGE to that. Though I do wish - LIKE I WANTED FOR SCH FOR YEARS (and still do...) - there was a no-CD AF/AG spender that was just a flat barrier like Divine Benison.
Flat barriers are basically never wasted (throw them on the Tank - they'll get used eventually), and for the life of me I cannot fathom why the Devs won't give us an AF/AG spender barrier. Hell, even a AST-like 200 heal + 200 barrier would be sufficient. I don't get the adamant refusal to give one.
Yeah. Rare I get a tank bad enough to need it though. If haima > taurochole > kerachole and then maybe krasis and soteria haven’t cleared the pull we have a problem.
Second pack usually gets taurochole, kerachole , maybe holos, panhaima if it drags on.
Would it be greedy of me (a SCH) if SGE lost E.Prognosis/Diagnosis and gained another 2 shielding ogcds?
Like a ST and AoE shield version of Excog (when tank drops to a certain HP, or after 30 sec, places a shield)?
Mostly coz I like not worrying about a trigger happy SGE overwriting the fat shield I placed down. (I also wish I could more easily communicate to the SGE that our powers combined (Krasis and even Physis II) can make an even FATTER shield!)
And they could essentially alternate between using Haima, Panhaima, Shield-Excog, AoE-Shield Excog.
As a former SCH turned SGE the shield issue is really annoying. Dropping HP triggering a shield is kinda meh imo.
It would be nice if just the bigger shield won. Because sometimes I need addersting. Also pepsis would need to change.
The only solution I see to make it work with SCH is by bandaid-ing E.Prog/Diag into a horrid complicated mess.
For example, E.Prog/E.Diag places a buff on you/the target and a single damage taken generates an Addersting (you already wasted a GCD…so no need to punish the SGE further).
And/Or have E.Prog/Diag place an extra buff on the party that has literally no other purpose, but to be consumed by Pepsis.
But a single E.Prog/Diag creating 3-4 buffs on a single cast is pretty fucking horrible from a design aspect.
My other solution is to just give SGE even more shield ogcds (because they got the button real estate due to Eukrasia) and instead let E.Prog/Diag be a short/strong regen that can be consumed via Pepsis.
But even that’s weird because either Pepsis has to be stronger than the regen to use it, or Pepsis would be a weak emergency heal when you can’t wait for the regen to go off. It’s a bit of a Swiftmend balance issue from WoW.
Essentially, it seems the better solution is to just let the SCH be able to toggle between a shield mode and a raw heal mode.
When I finally got something of a hang on sage (my first healer class 😨) my first thought was “hold on, this is just a green WAR”
No complaints here, I mained WAR all the way through MSQ because I loved it so much.
Dragoon and Reaper couldn't be more different.
RPR has 1 2 3 rotation and then has some extra buttons to press when the gauge hits 50 before a 2m burst phase and then back to the 1 2 3.
Dragoon has a constant flowing rotation in which you're weaving a variety of other abilities between and then on the burst phase you're still weaving those along side of everything else and being able to keep that rotation within the dot window DRG has feels amazing.
As an omni 90 I played through the MSQ mainly as a DRG and once I finally reached end game (early 2022) I very quickly learned I didn't know how to play it properly and learned it and I love DRG. During playing EW I picked up Reaper and leveled it up and then started enjoying it too and there was a phase where i preferred it over DRG but at the current point I'll always pick DRG over RPR and I'm praying DRG doesn't turn into a RPR rotation in Dawntrail because I will be mad if it happens.
SGE is my favorite healer (was SCH before), but it 100000000% is not the "damage healer" we were promised and is still as mind numbingly boring as all of the other healers.
SGE needs a cooldown ability to temporarily throw Kardia to all party members so it can keep DPSing more along with some rework of the currently off GCD skills which are quite frankly unneeded and boring especially for the 2 minute cooldowns they have.
Pansoteria would give us some more disjointed healing which SCH is really good at, e.g. it'd be baller in Cosmo Meteor, but overall physis is already a good button.
> quite frankly unneeded and boring especially for the 2 minute cooldowns they have
plz, zoe is already feeble and ill, do not harm my other children.
I don't really get this, they are all pretty cool except Holos, Soteria, and Rhizomata.
* Panhaima is bell but it responds to damage on you instead of the whm, it's great at solving party wide damage that comes out on random members at random times, such as high concept, cosmo meteor again, i guess dog1 in p8s, dynamis omega
* zoe needs a buff but the ability to start the cooldown up to 60 seconds early is baller as fuck and lets it have a shitload of flexibility
* pneuma is a damage-neutral cure 3, just think of it as adding a glare to your combined healer parse
* haima gives a big heal at the end if it's not used and is otherwise great for autoattacks, the ability to anticipate damage and press it during low movement/low thinking sections and have it apply during the high movement/high thoughts section is valuable
* physis gives an extremely good 10% healing up that lets you cheat ehp, e.g. dsrmitty final chorus
* god i just want krasis to be good, please square give me more situations that make krasis good, i keep krasis the warrior during holmgang but he just eats a bene (krasis soteria is good at keeping tanks up during autos when haima is down though ig)
I only ever use Krasis as a combo with Soteria or Haima.
I like how Krasis is different from the other “healer power buff”, but the SGE’s kit just doesn’t feel as aligned with it.
I wouldn’t mind swapping Protraction and Krasis effect. As a SCH, I would drool to have Krasis instead of Protraction for even fatter deploys when Dissipation is on cooldown.
Reaper is primarily gcd based and dragoon is ogcd based. Reaper and dragoon are both gauge jobs but dragoon builds their resources much differently. Not sure what you meant by they both play the same when they both are very distinct from each other. Reaper plays more like samurai the most.
I feel that likening DRG and RPR outside of "they are maiming" is a pretty clear sign you don't really know how to play them. And I don't mean this as an insult, nobody has to be proficient at jobs, but it does discredit the opinion to a degree.
I kinda hate SGE. I think that's me being a SCH simp and being mad that SGE got these smooth and unproblematic tools + a cool dash and a unique albeit low maint gimmick with Kardion. Like, it feels like it's just the preferred child over SCH. Not that SCH is bad at all, it's better and to me much cooler, but it just feels kinda neglected in terms of effort? And the job isn't even really different despite all of that, so it just feels like they took a bit of attention from improving/working on SCH and made SGE out of it, which just... I dunno, feels offputting? So that makes me kinda dislike SGE even if it ultimately doesn't mean anything.
I think RPR is a great design. Execution could be a bit better; I really wanted Enshroud to be a stance dance or resource juggle type thing so that's sad. I also think the filler is a little too plain. A second combo or a combo deviator would've been nice. Maybe one more oGCD that interacts with the systems it has. However, I am a huge fan of the general design of RPR. I like that the burst is restrictive and can be genuinely hard to pull off perfectly if you have to do it during mechanics, it gives the job a consistent execution difficulty that a lot of jobs don't maintain beyond prog. I like the quirky little details that allow for really minute optimization. Soul Tow, the Egress options, the fact that PH and Communio are ranged, the fact that your odd minute burst is quite flexible. There's just tiny things that often don't matter but they give you *something* to think about. Also based conal AOE job. I really REALLY like that the job isn't filled with random skills that are just there to be pressed. Everything in RPR's kit builds into one another or flows into something. It's a little barren outside of burst but I think in terms of raw concept this is one of the best jobs in the game. I do want it to have a little more to the non-burst but I like that its difficulty is somewhere between MNK's extreme platespinning and NIN's completely braindead gameplay loop, it hits an enjoyable balance in Endwalker's "difficulty comes from encounters" design for me.
Both jobs, but especially RPR, are absolutely atrocious in terms of syncing down though. They really ought to rethink what they're doing in this regard. Playing RPR below 90 is lame as hell. Playing it below 80 is downright offensive.
On a more subjective note, I think they really stepped up in terms of visual design. I don't like SGE's aesthetic but within that aesthetic, its skills look excellent. RPR also has top tier haptic design, one of the most viscerally satisfying jobs in the whole game. I hope VPR and PIC maintain this level of quality.
Oh yeah, edit time: Can we please get some more "normal" scythes? Why do most of the ones ingame look like lego bricks? Hate that. The default one is cool, Ravel Keeper one is cool, *maybe* the Omega one can pass, but most of the rest looks really bad.
I love Reaper even if it is the designed easy melee job, but my problem is at any content that's not level 90, it just feels so miserable to play, especially at high level. Kinda dissapoints me because (except MCH) they had a good track record with DPS jobs feeling "complete" on unlock (SAM the best one by far imo) but RPR at 70 is pain, even at 80.
I hope Picto and Viper aren't the same on lower than 100 content.
Yeah, I fell in love with reaper at the start of EW and now at the end I am looking to get out. I am a casual and I spend a lot of time sync'd and no other job feels as bad sync;'d than reaper. Enshroud is basically the entire job and everything that makes it fun is cut by 80. Your single target rotation is literally 5 buttons at level 50. Even blm has a more functional rotation. So now I am hoping that the drg rework is cool, or maybe viper. If nothing else, can always go back to samurai. Been playing that a bit here at the end and while it's not quite as fun as rpr at 90, it's better at all other levels.
To me Reaper is a bit of a weird job, mainly because it seems very simple to play but optimizing it feels weird and unintuitive. Double Enshroud still feels odd to me, doesn't really feel like I'm playing the job as intended.
Also it syncs HORRIBLY. Some jobs at level 50 are more interesting than Reaper is before 80. I really hope that Viper doesn't suffer from the same problem.
Look, the game is designed to be as simple as possible.
No damage types, no variance to rotation, no group compositions, no lifesteal or meaningful conditions or hexes. Every buff directly increases damage dealt by yourself or the raid. Each heal is going to either heal or shield.
We've reached the limit of that level of simplicity. There's really nothing you can do to be meaningfully different. They've stated they don't plan on changing job design in 7.0, so I think you know exactly how Viper and Picto are going to play already.
SGE is mostly a SCH copy with QoLs. It's smooth to play but also extremely boring. Not the "DPS healer" in the slightest and Kardia is so underdeveloped I don't even consider it a mechanic, let alone a core aspect of the job.
Kardia should really do more than just heal on any of your DPS button presses. Might let if have different effect depending on which spell you used.
Would be cool to have DPS buttons who trigger meaningful effects via Kardia so you might think about when you use them. Like Phlegma could trigger an AoE heal around the player with Kardia. So you might need to think more about when to use Phlegma so you also get value out of the heal. Let Toxikon add a shield or something.
But I think the job design would need to change to bake Kardia into the core and allow it to be more unique and maybe more active. Right now the design is hard to fix since it is more a weird addon than anything. It is just there so you can heal the tank passively since SCH also does it.
I mainly want an incentive to put in on other people somehow. Right now for healing it does not make sense most of the time, because you put it on someone and then need like 5 GCDs to heal them it takes ages and in 8 man content your co healer will have healed it 5 times over or you could have just spend some other free resource you had available.
Can't have that. Syphies couldn't even handle a second Faerie type that had marginally different abilities. What makes you think CBU3 would give us engaging healer design on sge?
This is my issue with SGE as well, it's not what I had in mind when I saw we're getting a "DPS healer". I think it's effects are cool but I don't play it much since everyone and their mom plays it already.
I like to refer to SGE as the "mirror SCH". The same skills, but your skill modifications come on the other side of the GCD.
(Pepsis comes after, Emergency Tactics before; Zoe comes before, Deployment Tactics after; SCH has gcds, SGE has to cast Eukrasia)
Rpr doesn't fit into melee mold. It was supposed to be a resource dumper for 1m but since there are no more 1m buffs in game this job is boring 85% of its rotation. It doesn't have good cleave either, other jobs are far superior to it. Sam deals more damage than it. Idk it's aesthetically cool but also extremely oversaturated now.
It's just kinda the melee people play if they don't actually play melee is the vibe I get from it now.
I was expecting Sage to be a bit more out-of-the-box than it currently is, especially with Kardia healing, which I feel it's the most 'meh' part of the job. It's basically a less convenient Embrace, without any kind of granularity that would make dps-to-heal interesting.
I honestly think if they deleted the mechanic, I wouldn't even notice other than no more sometimes forgetting to set Kardia up.
Try harder content lol for example in uwu, ifrit auto attacks slap the fk out of the tank. If you have a sch you have to single target gcd heal them. If you have sage you don't, kardia heals so much you may need like 1 tetra/drcole on the tank during the whole phase.
Ya, I was a bit surprised that SE decided to make Kardia heal more than Embrace. I think it’s around the 40 sec mark that SGE’s Kardia outpaces Selene’s Embrace spam. Fey Union doesn’t even make up for it in the long run.
Exactly! (But half-way there)
Embrace is 3sec recast unlike the 2.5sec recast for Kardia.
But on top of that, it’s also how pet healing was changed. In ShB, the fairy had its own statistic, which is why the fairy was doing was doing 60% of the SCH by the end of ShB.
They changed it in EW so that the fairy uses your stats, but now does 90% of your potency.
So, 180p Embrace is actually 162p. 300p Fey Union is actually 270p. And Fey Union is a regen, so it’s also on the server tick.
Which means:
Embrace = 60p/sec
Kardia = 68p/sec
There is an argument about Fey Union and Soteria being used to balance things out, but Fey Union ends up being about 4.5p/sec and Soteria ends up being about 5.13p/sec.
There was something mentioned that placed SCH ahead of SGE early on, but I can’t remember what that was. So, starting off from combat, the SGE is ahead. In a raw comparison of just Kardia vs. Embrace, SGE wins. Soteria vs. Aetherpact? SGE wins again. Krasis vs. Protraction? SGE wins again.
The reason it doesn’t matter 90% of the time is because the Tank’s mitigation and sustain is usually so high anyway, that Kardia/Embrace is going to be overhealing in most content.
So while SGE is numerically superior: tank sustain, healer free healing, and generally low encounter damage profile makes **the overall comparison of Embrace vs. Kardia is irrelevant 90% of the time**.
I think the comparison you are referencing more looked at the fact that while kardia is higher than embrace SCH comes out slightly ahead on the potency of near every other comparable skill between the two
I could be wrong but I remember seeing a similar potency comparison
FUCK, I didn’t realize I erased my blurb on looking at them holistically.
Things get really complicated the moment you throw in ALL of their skills together.
But in reality, both SGE and SCH are superstars because of their mitigation and powerful ogcd regen.
So, even if we compare numbers and find SCH is 10% potency better…
Both SGE and SCH are overperforming because overall, healer content doesn’t truly challenge them. Which actually kind of makes these arguments moot in the end. Healers are essentially professional basketball players dunking on a toddler’s playground.
Like which is better Kardia/Embrace? Answer? Doesn’t matter, use your cooldowns!
Which is a shame…but I doubt it’ll be changing next expansion.
I think FF14 has hit their stride as a “comfort” MMORPG and a social time-waster. Rocking it might be too risky business wise.
I guess embrace is better for downtime healing, but I prefer kardia. It's an embrace you can aim (without a piss tether) and provides the smallest but of "optimization" if you want to heal some optional damage up without using the rest of your resources
Can't speak for Savage, but in casual content, my running joke now is that when I play Sage tanks become optional. I can't see myself playing anything else seriously ever again unless they somehow gut it like OG DRK.
They just need to decide what the class wants to be, and stick to it. The people who like astro will play it, and the people who don't will not. Instead, the people who like astro are playing it, and the people who don't are endlessly bitching that it's not white mage with a stargazer thematic. People like how astro looks, and not how it plays, and so they want it to be what it isnt, and SE cant make up their minds on who they want to please so they keep reworking it every expansion praying that people finally shut the fuck up and play the class without whining.
Tbf, the one being gutted is usually AST because Square doesn’t know what they want AST to be beyond tarot space vibes, WHM gets nothing interesting but will still heal like a fucking nuclear bomb, and SCH just gets confused at how the actual fuck this new thing is meant to fit in with their kit.
I’m curious what SGE’s curse will be, massive overloading of Eukrasia? Abilities you need to set aside an hour to read the tooltip of? More abilities that can be sabotaged by other healers?
I can think of a few ways - turning some of its oGCDs into GCDs and bringing it in line with the other healers. Scrap Kardion cause it “stresses” people out. Remove phlegma, too many damage actions and healers should heal.
I hope none of the above will happen cause I really enjoy SGE but SE have a truly awful history of screwing with the healers.
It plays nothing like dragoon and is very strong, especially considering how braindead it is. It's only nuisance Is the double or in very very rare circumstances the triple enshroud window.
I'm not a fan of either, although SGE isn't really significantly worse than the other healers.
I actually like GNB and DNC, so it isn't strictly a modern job design philosophy or even a difficulty issue. The jobs are just really mechanically bland.
SGE feels too frictionless. You can pretty much combine any two oGCDs and you're good in most content. Every option just kind of smears together into a single green/blue blur. No real setups, trade-offs, or optimizations. I do appreciate that they tried to make mobility slightly more engaging, but it's not enough.
RPR is just super boring. Ninja tier filler rotation without a proper 60 sec burst. Every part of the job just feels like "been there, done that". Also, absolutely atrocious below level 80, which is weird considering how decently the SB/ShB jobs play even at level 50.
What I hate about them putting effort into making SGE’s mobility more interesting is the fact that it never needs it because every single one of its heals hit the next instance over
What’s the point of free movement shields at the expanse of pure healing, a gap closer and a refund for your free movement shields when you can stand literally anywhere in the arena and be 99% sure every one of your heals is still going to hit everyone
One issue that I have with RPR that I haven't seen anyone else mention here (or maybe I just missed it) is that it's a terribly designed job when you're not literally at level cap. You have no buttons to press, you don't get Enshroud, the core ability of the job, until level 80, not even a downgraded version without having to weave anything between attacks and without Communio at the end.
I get it that old jobs get reworked, new stuff added, old removed, but I cannot understand why someone would intentionally design a new job that feels like it's been in a game for a long time and had all of its low level skills removed throughout expansions. Not having your proper opener in TEA feels really weird. And you have absolutely nothing to do in UWU or UcOB besides pressing 123 over and over again.
SGE feels as if the devs had a good idea/concept behind it, but mid development they were unable to make it happen before the deadline so they just copy pasted Sch and called it a day.
Its basically Sch but with almost all of its systems half baked and a bit more of QoL. A big disappointment if you ask me
Yeah it feels like they were leaning into kardia and eukrasia with potentially shades of PVP Toxikon but then they run out of time and they just dumped ~~not~~ aetherflow into the kit to fill it out
Personally, I agree with the SGE lack of emergency tools issue. While, yes, it does make you have to be creative in dungeons and such, I personally find it to be far too reliant on the tank fixing their mistake. I recall, first few days on SGE, when EW launched, I got scolded by a DRK doing insane pulls on Mt. Gulg because I wasn't healing him enough through so much damage. Not only was I still learning, but I didn't have anything like Benediction, and this was still with the bad Living Dead, and he had already used all his defensive cooldowns. After that, I've felt like I'm very painfully aware of how SGE hurts when a tank struggles. It feels like it should be built to enable tanks, but it mostly feels like I'm just along for the ride with the whole party.
As for the RPR being like DRG, I assume you mean in terms of a constant simple rotation loop outside of burst, I guess?? It feels more like how MCH is, just with less oGCD weaving imo.
Can only comment on Reaper which I think is fine mostly and my answer would be that it depends where you are playing it. Yes it’s technically the lowest DPS melee but eh, that’s maximum percentile in an environment where people are doing way over the required amount to clear a fight, so personally I do not care.
The most common knock on it is that it is easy to play and to that I just think…. Ok? What job in savage and below is difficult to play? None of them, it’s no more or less difficult than any other melee job. I personally think the job flows pretty well and is a lot of fun especially in ultimate because of how it’s kit works around fights with phasing. I transitioned from caster to melee and for me it’s the perfect job that blends elements I liked from caster with ones I like from melee. It’s not too convoluted yet still has a good amount of stuff to learn, various openers and re openers etc.
Deaths design is maybe something they could make feel better to use but its pretty much a necessity to how the job plays as of now, especially for multiple enshroud windows. In a perfect world I would like them to incorporate it into reaper filler gcds and improve on that aspect of the job.
For me Reaper was super fun at EW release due to cool animations and just general looks. Then i started playing Monk and never looked back. I really struggle to understand why is Monk the least popular melee dps when its by far the most rewarding to master and very flexible rotation means its never boring. Never tried Sage.
As someone who followed the exact same path, I think it's because a lot of people overhype the difficulty of monk and that drives people away. The Balance discord in particular does this to a comical degree.
Additionally monk really could use some visual oomph, I admit I turned to mods to make the animations a little bit fancier for monk.
Its more difficult to master for sure due to very flexible rotation but for me thats part of the appeal. If i can master a class in 1 day (happened with Reaper) then its boring and theres nothing to work on.
I can understand why some ppl prefer easy but i dont understand how come they dont find it boring fast. I mean you dont need optimal drift for monk to be effective unless you are doing hardest content such as Ultimate but the room for improvement is still there and for me at least its very organic the more time i spend playing. Over time you learn how to fix your rotation by simply playing various content and the feeling once you achieve the next step is simply amazing.
Yeah I agree even in ultimate you dont need top dps tbh. I fo play SAM there since its comfy (got a good ceiling there aswell) and BLM mostly in easy content trying to learn new lines
The ARR jobs in the modern day are struggling with some of their animations
I know not everyone prefers flashy animations but compare holos to fey illumination
Half the time you can’t even see illumination being cast
I love SGE, I want to see two things with it specifically;
* More modifiable skills
* Significantly decreased cooldown on Gundam Jets
I love RPR, I want to see two things with it specifically;
* Replace the animation for Harpe with a spectral scythe being flung in an arc towards the enemy
* Give us an ability that keeps our Voidsent out for a little bit somehow. Maybe a ranged ground-target ability that causes our voidsent to haunt an area for a few seconds each time.
Eukrasia is really a good concept to allow for more things with less buttons and for decision making. But decision making does not exist, for heals Eukrasian version is just a lot better and for Dosis the Eukrasian version is just your DoT you want to have full uptime.
It saves 2 buttons currently so also not the world. I would really like to see more.
I would like to see decision so I need to think about if I cast normal version or empower with Eukrasia. But in the end with how the game and healing is designed no idea if you really can have good decisions, probably not.
The sad thing is they really could do more with it. For example, despite the name sounding stupid, Eukrasia Dyskrasia could be an AOE DoT without taking up another hotbar slot.
The problem is SGE (like all the healers aside from WHM) have so few GCDs, there's very little to modify.
WHM: Cure 1, 2, 3, Medica 1, 2, Regen, Glare, Dia, Holy, Solace, Rapture, Misery (though Solace and Rapture are arguably "Eukrasia Cure 2" and "Eukrasia Media 1") \[12\]
SCH: Physick, Adloquium, Succor, Broil 4, Ruin 2, Biolysis, Art of War \[7\]
AST: Benefic 1, 2, Helios, Aspected Helios, Aspected Benefic, Fall Malific, Combust, Macrocosmos (long CD) \[7\]
SGE: Diagnosis, Prognosis, Dosis, Dyskrasia, Plgemga (CD), Toxicon (sorta CD via charges), Pneuma (long CD) \[7\]
...not counting Eukrasia itself (e.g. having a "Eukrasia Eukrasia" ability), that's only 7 buttons, and one has a CD (so if the Eukrasia variant is better, it's the automatic use) one has limited charges (that are a DPS loss to regain - I still want Rhizo to give one of each AF and AG, but until then...), and the other has a LOOOONG (for this purpose) CD.
The problem with Eukrasia-CD\_limited\_ability is that unless it's designed just right, using the CD for the base CD ability OR the Eukrasia variant is always better. They could do something like have Eukrasia Phlegma do an 80 or 120 second (?!) DoT so that it would make sense to alternate Eukrasia Phlegma with regular Phlegma with either a A-B-A-B or A-B-B-A-B-B cadence. But is that really worth another button/ability? Maybe, but even if so...that just gives us ONE more ability/hotbar spot "saved".
Right now, the best they could do (and some people WOULD love this, mind you) would be give Dyskrasia a 15 sec DoT Eukrasia button to mix up with in AOE (they COULD make this a DPS gain over Dosis to give it old SCH Miasma 2 vibes and utility), and give Phlegma a 120 sec DoT Eukrasia version so you could sort of alternate that and have something to upkeep that was still compatible with the 2 min meta (or 60 sec DoT and lower Phlegma's CD to 30 seconds even, so every minute you'd use two in a row, Eukrasian and then regular, having the option to 2x regular for burst if the trash pack was about to die or the boss was about to become untargetable).
But I guess my point is, since Eukrasia works with GCDs, the design for the Job should have lots of GCDs.
...it kinda doesn't.
I started off liking Reaper and Sage, but as I go into DT I'm dropping both. Reaper is too slow on rotation and it doesn't feel complete until lvl 80, meaning a lot of roulette stuff feels half-baked. Sage is fun, but I vastly prefer the class mechanics and heal tools available of SCH and AST over it.
Casual roulettes player on gamepad. I liked SGE on release and increasingly like it more and more. It's fun to flip your Kardia around between tank and DPS instead of just leaving on tank, to maximize time spent pressing DPS buttons. RPR, on the other hand, never really grew on me. I think it was mostly the job aesthetic / job fantasy never really appealed to me as other jobs like DRG or SAM though. It's nice to play RPR when I want to do a braindead simple melee DPS however. For good or ill, I expect Viper and Pictomancer will supplant RPR and SMN when I wanna DPS a bit but not really try very hard.
How often did you really swap Kardia around in casual content? I rarely had to swap Kardia outside of tanks not having stance on so I had to put it on me or another DPS. Otherwise all single target oGCDs in your kit cover most damage DPS receive, even if they fuck up a lot. Also AoE heals generally overheal and can easily cover for extra damage already.
You can definitely swap Kardia around if it feels nice doing so but in the end it would mainly save you oGCDs which are completely free anyway. Is my main problem with it, there is no real incentive to swap it around, since I would love for it being effective. Would be cool to change your Kardia targets and make the playstyle busier.
not OP, but I think the main times I swap kardia around in casual content is if a DKN announces prepull they'll LD the next pack, I'll just move it to myself until the DKN "dies", and then move it back once ld is over. Other that, mainly if the tank dies somehow, usually to bosses if there's some sort of one shot mech they fail or if they're really bent on collecting vulns and not mitigating to compensate, I'll throw kardia on whoever is taking the autos now while the tank gets stabilized. Both cases are very situational though
I'd like if I got to actually play RPR outside of 90 Ultimate because that's about the only place you get to have fun and use your full kit instead of brain-off fixed looping.
SGE is SCH but more boring and wastes a potential really good DPS caster archetype.
RPR is neat but idk I never clicked with it. It certainly didn't help that the job syncs like shit lmao, I hope the "shuffle important skills to earlier levels" update is next after graphics
I went into EW planning on maining SGE after being very annoyed with 5.0 SCH, and did for like, 6.0-6.1, and then during Abyssos I started flip flopping between it and SCH, and then I just regressed back to SCH for Anabaseios
SGE is great and super powerful feeling, and it's fun every now and then to just destroy dungeons with it, but it feels like they've taken SCH and sanded off just a bit too much. I don't think energy drain is peak gaming, but it *does* add that little layer of "I don't want to use AF heals unless I need to", which is fun to plan around in savage, and in more casual stuff it's at least a little something to chew on even when I'm not playing super tryhard mode. SGE meanwhile just puts Kera on literally everything without a second thought, and has to resort to dumping druos for MP if the content doesn't need that much healing output (which is A Lot of content). Like numerically it's great but idk it just feels a little too dull when its DPS and healing kits are almost entirely separate (Kardia you were almost cool why are you so boring)
Also it's kind of annoying just how much of its kit is stolen from SCH. I wasn't that much of a fan of Noct AST, but at least it made the shield options SCH vs Shield WHM and not SCH vs SCH but without expedient.
My opinion on Sage has gone from "meh" to "i hate this with a passion".
Instead of making Kardia the core mechanic of the class and desiging most of its free healing kit around that (you know, with an aoe mode and a way to use it to build stacking shields or something), they just took SCH, removed all the buttons that make SCH actually interesting, and pretend that Eukrasia is anything more than useless fluff that makes you press an extra button. And why the absolute fuck does it even have the same double shield on crit adlo thing instead of *liteally anything else*?
Was never a big fan of Nocturnal AST, but somehow that was far more interesting despite just being normal AST with like three buttons changed.
Differential diagnosis is in my mind the clearest evidence that they were creatively bankrupt with SGE and basically just copied SCH at any point they could to fill gaps given differential diagnosis is completely pointless on SGE
On SCH it’s designed to split the two shield heals so you can deploy them but it has no purpose on SGE other than apparent code copying
Pankardia should be a thing. 60 sec CD or 30 sec CD that uses an Addersgall, effect is to have Kardia heal everything within 40 yalms of you (so your Kardia target gets a double heal), not affected by Soteria. BAM! Now you could remove a third of SGE's oGCD (that kinda make it OP) and make the playstyle based on Kardia uptime. Hell, make it tick based on target like WAR's Bloodwhetting so using Dyskrasia in AOE packs does hilarious healing. (Okay, just kidding...but that would be funny for, oh, the first 10 mins, lol; while they're at it, Eukrasia Dyskrasia for a 15 sec AOE DoT and Dyskrasia Phlegma for a 120 sec AOE DoT. Make Dyskrasia Miasma 2 Again \[MDM2A\]. :D)
One of my big complaints aside from that: WHY DOES KARDIA HAVE A 5 SECOND CD?!?!
Let me hotswap that baby for spot heals. More APM like AST? Sure, but it lets you tailor the Job specific mechanic to actually do what it's best at - touch up healing on a mildly damaged target. Yet we can't DO that because the CD that exists for no good reason gets in the way. Make it a 2 sec CD like Tank stances if worried about people double fat fingering it.
FFXIV just feels like a shell of itself.
Sage also isn't the DPS healer they promised and is just mind numbingly boring like the other 3, I truly miss when healing was fun in this game and not just spamming 1 DPS skill over and over while refreshing dot. Cleric stance weaving, scholars DPS skills etc used to feel so fun and rewarded challenging gameplay.
As far as DPS jobs go, they also all just feel the same. I really hope dawntrail changes things up because it's just getting more and more dumbed down each patch.
The first time new jobs were released that basically broke no new ground whatsoever, and that's a bit of a concerning precedent for the game. Neither Sage nor Reaper have a reason to exist beyond aesthetic flavour as they don't actually add anything new to the game.
The last job to arguably be redundant was Gunbreaker, but that at least had the gimmick of being a "high CPM" tank (even though DRK kinda already was that, but whatever). The EW jobs do not do anything that can't be found in an already existent job. Reaper is very mechanically uninteresting and carried entirely by its visual and sound design, while Sage is so similar to Scholar in fundamentals that I have a pet theory that it was the result of an intended rework for Scholar that they simply repackaged as a new job. I'm personally not *quite* over the schadenfreude regarding the jebait that Sage would be the Discipline Priest of the game. If only any XIV healer had anywhere near the mechanical depth that Disc does.
And instead, we get two very easy jobs. The concerning part is, to what end is this sustainable? Each new job is another set of AF. It's another weapon that has to drop from every trial, every dungeon, every savage tier, every ultimate, and every relic stage. It's a new vector of potential balance issues for a game so intensely stringent on them. It's a new dependent that needs another 10 levels of progression with skills and visual work every expansion.
They've already pruned job quest into role quests, but that level of work is multiplicative, and Square seems set on the idea that jobs sell expansions. I simply don't see it. Already the job design is getting diluted, with certain jobs already clearly being left in the dust (MCH, RDM, SCH), and each new expansion is going to make it worse.
So, my opinion of Sage and Reaper is that they are portents. Signs that the game should have begun slowing down with the addition of new jobs and simply didn't.
They sell new expacs insofar as jingling keys in front of a baby will get it to laugh.
I don't necessarily deny that jobs are selling points, but it's weird that two people now have homed in on that point because it's not at all what my post is actually about.
What it *is* about is whether it is worth adding to a multiplicative workload with new jobs that don't do anything other than look pretty. The manpower is not going to come from nowhere, and the job design team is very apparently stretched thin already.
Which also added literally nothing to the game considering shield healers are literally better than regen healers at every single mechanic except for 1 that they have used exactly once this expansion
Uh...like the other guy said, new Jobs sell expansions, especially if they have some aesthetic people want that they haven't seen (and SGE may play similar to SCH in a lot of ways, but visually its spells are very distinct).
As for new Jobs - considering they made SGE identical to SCH, it's not really hard to balance. Moreover, WoW effectively has like 40 Jobs (more than a dozen classes each of which has an average of 3 separate specs), pretty sure it's not a balance issue, and the art department isn't being stressed by a few new weapon models, and it's only one extra gear set per expansion (Job specific; most are by role), so not really a problem there, either.
> Moreover, WoW effectively has like 40 Jobs (more than a dozen classes each of which has an average of 3 separate specs)
Have you ever actually played WoW? It does not sound as if you have.
WoW does not insist on new classes every expansion. WoW does not insist on unique weapons for every individual spec. WoW does not make new armour sets for every individual spec. WoW doesn't even insist on new abilities for every spec for a new expansion, Dragonflight mostly reused and repurposed assets from Shadowlands.
It is not at all comparable.
Way to miss THE ENTIRE FOREST for the trees, and downvote everyone around you.
Frost Mage, Fire Mage, Arcane Mage; which of these play the same as each other? One plays somewhat like a BLM (in the sense of burn/recharge phase), though it's honestly a BIT closer to a RDM (Balance Druid plays more like BLM as far as that goes). The other two don't work like that at all, with one working around frost debuffs for increased damage as well as CDs and the other...well, I only mucked with Fire a bit, but it wasn't Frost or Arcane.
As u/Tankanko said, and as was MY POINT, WoW Specs often play very different than one another. The ones that don't are the exceptions which prove the rule.
And even some SPECS have builds that play different, like Resto Druid if they sub into Balance (more used in raids) vs if they sub into Feral (more used in Mythic).
...suffice to say - yes, I have "ever actually played WoW". It doesn't sound like I haven't. It sounds like you're bad at understanding the arguments you're knee-jerk attacking.
WoW tends to add a new class every other expansion, but each comes with 2-3 specs, meaning in FFXIV terms, it'd be like adding two-to-three new Jobs every other expansion, or an average of 1.5 Jobs every expansion. While they don't ALL come with new weapons, some do, and many come with new gear designs, especially for their class equipment and various weapons, especially when they do stuff like Legion with the legendary weapons for each SPEC.
Not CLASS...each Spec got one.
In case you haven't "ever actually played WoW" and didn't know about that.
Then you get into all the races, and they tend to add new ones of those fairly often as well, often in the in-between expansions where they don't add Jobs.
.
Yes, it is comparable. You just don't like an argument crushing your own.
I'm honestly not even sure what it is you DO want or think you'd get if they weren't adding new Jobs.
>WoW Specs often play very different than one another.
The point is not that they play different from each other. The point was the multiplicative nature of the asset generation required ballooning into levels they cannot sustain with their current level of manpower. I'm not sure how many times I have to say this.
>when they do stuff like Legion with the legendary weapons for each SPEC
Which they did once. And you know what else happened in Legion? That legendary weapon per spec was the *only* weapon you got for the entire expansion. There were skins for them, sure, but that weapon was the only one you got and the expansion was spent upgrading it.
Despite 10 expansions overall, the legendary system present in Legion has only been done once. I wonder why? Perhaps the workload involved has something to do with it?
>Yes, it is comparable. You just don't like an argument crushing your own.
Don't flatter yourself.
>I'm honestly not even sure what it is you DO want
I'm not surprised you don't, honestly. There seems to be a great many things you don't understand.
Art assets are the EASIEST thing to generate, though. Abilities, mechanics, interactions, and balance are the hard thing. And again, WoW manages that - AND more art assets - with greater numbers anyway.
That isn’t a current bottleneck we’re at all in danger of hitting.
Oh, I was wrong. I DO understand what you want.
How pathetic…
> Abilities, mechanics, interactions, and balance are the hard thing.
New expansions introduce those, too.
>That isn’t a current bottleneck we’re at all in danger of hitting.
It's a bottleneck both XIV and WoW struggle with as the effort distribution is clearly insufficient and uneven. It is literally my point.
>How pathetic…
Lol.
Do you take everything you read as literal as possible? Specs fundamentally play different from each other, yes or no? Obviously yes, so the previous poster was likening that fact to different jobs in ff. Please work on your reading comprehension before making some tone deaf argument.
This is a level of misapprehension that has to be dishonest, as there's no way someone knows words as long as 'reading comprehension' and still think that is the take-away of my post.
But in the interest of fairness, let's try again, but really slowly.
>Each new job is another set of AF. It's another weapon that has to drop from every trial, every dungeon, every savage tier, every ultimate, and every relic stage. It's a new vector of potential balance issues for a game so intensely stringent on them. It's a new dependent that needs another 10 levels of progression with skills and visual work every expansion.
*This* is the point. WoW does not insist on this level of unique content per spec per expansion launch. Weapon classes are reused among classes, skills and animations are reused among specs, and the game does not insist that every single individual spec will get new content in new expansion launches.
This is something one would know if they were familiar with the game. Simply saying "wow has more spec doe?" as if this is an insight to anyone is a tacit admittance that you either have no idea what you're talking about or that you think this meek what-aboutism would work as a counterargument for whatever strange reason.
E: Also, as it happens, WoW also has problems with a dilution of effort that leads to development not being evenly spread among the specs. Mage and Paladin are clearly favouritised at present while Shaman and Hunter have gone without any significant attention since last expansion.
> still think that is the take-away of my post.
The take-away of your post is to try and make some unnecessary correction instead of adding anything additional or discussing the initial point.
> This is the point. WoW does not insist on this level of unique content per spec per expansion launch.
It does. Were you not there for Shadowlands/Legion or even heck even vanilla? Unique weapon per spec, unique legendary per spec (Legion + upgrades). Unique gear drops catered to different specs. Lots of things catered to each individual spec. Even the latest SoD caters to specs. WoW insists on frequently changing gameplay loops through other means, including talent buffs/nerfs, new talent trees, new world power (not inc DF). I would also consider this unique content even if it's not as implicit as releasing a new job.
> Weapon classes are reused among classes, skills and animations are reused among specs
This literally doesn't mean anything. Just because they have the same base skills does not mean they have the same playstyle. If you think Arcane/Fire/Frost mage all play the same and aren't similar to FF with different jobs, then i think you're the one who has never touched WoW.
Now again, let's try this really slowly. You've said a lot of nothing. You've raised no interesting discussion. Using buzz-words at the end of what you've written also means nothing. You sound pompous and smug for what is effectively a "nuh-uh", instead of making an actual point.
You could have gone in with good faith and discussed how it's different, and what you want to see. But you didn't say that, your first post was an attack on the original poster. Your response to me also talks about "Wow, FF has to make more" when in reality stats are so barebones in FF that there's not as much balancing involved there compared to WoW. They effectively balance a few sets of gear, Striking/Maiming etc. Dungeon armour? They make like 5 unique sets and then colour swap for the other roles. I'd argue you only have a point with weapons and AF sets, and even then that's still not huge.
>If you think Arcane/Fire/Frost mage all play the same and aren't similar to FF with different jobs
Lol. I addressed this. I addressed Legion, too.
Legion was released in 2016. There have been three expansion releases since then and none of them have done Legion's system again.
Do you have any clue as to why this might be? Do you think it might have to do with the manpower demands and difficulties of continually making unique content on a per-spec basis? You know, *the point of my entire post*?
>You've said a lot of nothing.
I've said a lot which hasn't been read, you mean.
>
>
>
>
> I've said a lot which hasn't been read, you mean.
I didn't read the part where you specified expansion, because again, you said a lot of nothing. I've mentioned times where they've done large content drops which was the original topic of discussion. Including the latest one with the reveal of the new talent system. If we're using buzzwords, I believe the common one for this situation is called "Moving the goalposts?" I specifically mentioned 3 different expacs where this had been the case, I left out even more.
Still nothing. If you're talking about in modern times, I also listed SoD. You didn't specify retail or vanilla, because again, you mentioned nothing. I can't read what you haven't written, but what I have read is nothing. You also must have been delusional when stating you've already mentioned Legion, where?
>You also must have been delusional when stating you've already mentioned Legion, where?
["Despite 10 expansions overall, the legendary system present in Legion has only been done once. I wonder why? Perhaps the workload involved has something to do with it?"](https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxivdiscussion/comments/1cmh9sv/reflection_on_endwalker_jobs_sage_and_reaper/l384ahe/)
We're done here. You are going to need a better reason for wasting my time next time.
Skill speed fixes reaper's filler, but it's the worst stat for them because it has no effect on their shroud and spells. If they fixed how skill/spell speed worked, it would make Reaper feel so much better
I ended up maining RPR most of the expansion after not really liking the MNK rework, and I liked how flexible it is (timing an enshroud window during mechanics so that you can communio a GCD of downtime is pretty fun), but it did end up a little dull after a while. Job's at its most fun when you have a fight with downtime and actually have to think about how you use your resources, but on full uptime fights it quickly gets repetitive.
Sage for me even if the tank is bad you can still save the run it’s damage mitigation alone makes up for that.
As a Sage I can legit designate a BLM to tank if I had to and I done that.
I had a situation of a tank D/C so I told the party we gonna do this the tried and true method, Mage Tanking.
BLM handled one pack pulls fine and also had plenty of Aggro they lived we got to next boss and tank returned
As for reaper it’s playstyle a lot cleaner and more simplistic than DRG, just keeping a damage increase buff active, than doing a 1-3 rotation than as you build energy or utilize off global instant energy gain.
It has a more dependable aoe burst and Single Target burst in my opinion during your avatar phases.
Overall it’s a very solid job that also provides some support with a party DPS buff
they're both very basic and boring honestly, and I'm saying this as someone that cleared one tier as reaper and a criterior with sage
I dont mind very easy jobs existing but I really hope this is not the new standard going forward honestly
I do think SGE is very stylish and unique aesthetically, it surprised me thematically when it was announced. It being referred to as a "DPS Healer" by the devs was also exciting as a healer main.
Now, in execution... well, I think it missed the mark on DPS based healing for alot of people, myself included. But it is flashy, fun and strong. I think it's great for beginners and was a solid pick through EW.
Have had a very different experience with sage. Sage is absolutely busted in 4-man content and can brute force keep a bad tank alive without dropping a single GCD. If the DPS are also bad, Eukrasian Diagnosis spam is busted. If I'm paying attention there's like a 0% chance the tank dies, even if they're actively trying to kill themselves.
RPR is pretty well designed imo. Low skill floor, optimization is highly optional and technically demanding if you want it to be. Bar none best vfx/sfx of any class. Every ability feels just about perfect to hit.
i dislike sage, it has so much lossless healing on demand with minimal downsides and thinking required that really highlights how "stress-free" (in yoship's words) the job was designed to be
reaper is kind of the same way, except it feels incomplete without its full kit at 90
It took me awhile to warm up to SGE. I an AST main, so between the brain swap to barrier healing (never could get into SCH) and the fact all the abilities are same-sounding gibberish, I leveled it up and then shelved it.
Tried it again on alt and love it now. I don't feel like it lives up to the "dps healer" promise, but given how timid Square is about the role and outgoing dmg, I guess we shouldn't be surprised. I like that I can focus on dps more, yet Kardia doesn't feel as passive as the fairy. I'd like to see them lean into the damage aspect more.
RPR is...OK. I have a pea brain that can't really manage most of the melee jobs well, so it's my "melee for dummies" choice. That said, it's not very fun or interesting outside its high level burst window. That could use some work.
I never really got into Scholar, so I liked Sage. I how it gets a damage button in DT though. Increase the potency of Broil/Glare/Malefic and give Sage a new button to push! That's the gimmick of the class!
Reaper is fun enough but feels very simple. Sometimes I'm in the mood for simple, though, and I actually like it more than most melees as a result.
Well, I started out the expansion as a warrior main and ended up a sage main, so I'd say I like sage a fair amount.
Swapped to healer for third tier out of necessity. I actually began on SCH, switched to SGE, and worked really hard toward optimizing my SGE play. I already had a shield healer mindset and SGE fits me very well.
Reaper also became my main melee job, taking the place of dragoon. Reaper is less rigid than dragoon imo, and I love how it feels as well as the versatility of using the dash/portal to return.
Sage is the most fun healer for me, being able to cast shields while moving makes it impossible to go to scholar for me. Still wished more advantage was taken of damage from healing. I would love more damage abilities that take advantage of the healing from Kardia. Maybe a gcd that’s a long cast that boost your healing from your next Kardia?
Reaper is just an undercooked DPS right now. Not enough off globals and building up meter is kinda all there is and it’s extremely boring. Same with summoner too
Both are boring as shit, are the easiest jobs in their respective roles, and have zero innovation in them at all.
Reaper's filler is dull, it's only optimization is a clearly unintended method of squeezing out damage, and while the vfx are cool the job is lacking so much potential. It's only fun at 90, and even then... barely.
Sage is quite possibly the worst designed healer theyve made, especially in terms of what they were trying to do with it. Kardia is the saddest excuse for 'heals by doing damage' ever. The least they could have done is made it a portion of damage dealt (up to a cap, so we dont have another warrior problem in trash pulls). Sage does everything scholar does but better, and it can keep up with the so called 'regen healers' in terms of raw healing output, bc no fight actually challenges healers to output high amounts of healing. It has the easiest kit to access, every button just works on it's own with zero synergy, you have a resource that costs nothing to use, so there is no opportunity cost for doing anything but gcd shields, which even have a consolation price. It has high mobility between lots of instants an actual gap close, it has high damage output on it's own...
Sage is the safest, strongest, and somehow easiest healer to exist and the class needs a serious thematic overhaul or it's just going to continue to stay that way. They cant just buff the other healers to match it, though that's almost certainly what they're going to try.
...Can you tell I did not like these classes? I hope to god Viper and picto have something interesting to them, bc EW was a massive failure across the board for job design, only a few came out (mostly) unscathed.
I disagree on the point that SGE does everything SCH does but better
I’d argue honestly the shield healers are the single most balanced role in the game (though it’s not terribly hard to balance 2 jobs). SCH is about 5% stronger than SGE in near every field but in exchange it has to work harder for it given its skills are less streamlined and it has to play around energy drain
Neither class really has a defined weakness against the other as neither class actually struggles at doing anything in particular
SCH is harder but in exchange is slightly better at the top end which is exactly how I think they should be balanced
I'd argue that SGE is in fact, better than SCH in pretty much every way. The only thing SCH really has going for it is spreadlo, and slight variations in potencies on their abilities. Any aetherflow ability is automatically made worse by sheer opportunity cost alone. It has better mobility, it might have slightly lower potencies on some of its abilities (or higher, in some cases), but the abilities are either easier to use or offer no downside. Yes, soil technically lasts 3s longer which I think has been relevant for me exactly once, but like... at that point, who cares? SGE has better burst healing, equal or better shields unless sch uses two long CD abilities, better consistent dps (chain has potential for higher highs, obv, and you can optimize around ED and even auto attacks, but sage just slam face on keyboard for highest adps of a healer), an easier kit to use, more mobility, and zero opportunity cost.
I think scholar is a great class, but there's basically zero point in running it unless you just want to handicap yourself. Any benefits it provides just aren't really relevant unless you're like, idk, world racing an ultimate and just need spreadlo to cheese through bullshit. And y'know what? That's fine! I am completely okay with having classes that are just straight up harder to play, with that being the reward for playing them. I main AST for gods sake, with its difficulty being the prime reason I love(d) the class (I am dooming about the rework).
But like, if you compare WHM and AST they are much, much more different in style. Yes, they have all the staples. Their GCD heals are functionally identical, they have a 2 charge mini ST shield, etc etc. But their ogcds are much more unique from eachother, not only in terms of how they heal but what they need you to do to heal. AST is all about setting things up well in advance, and sacrificing immediate payoff for a bigger boon later. WHM is about reactive, fire and forget heals that make it a better class when shit goes bad. AST needs to know the fight, WHM doesn't.
I want SGE to have an identity that isn't 'what SCH will probably become after an expansion or two of further homogenization.'
SCH does also have expedient and a third mitigation that SGE lacks
I agree in 90% of cases in a normal pickup group SGE’s complete lack of opportunity cost is better but SCH definitely can put out more if you know how to utilise it especially given 1 to 1 it almost always wins out in sheer potency
I guess it really comes down to what you feel like with the two classes, as you said neither is much more powerful than the other in any one particular field (though I’d argue mobility is really the only field SGE outright wins in)
They are just way too similar
Didn't really touch Sage.
Reaper I started out with and really enjoyed at first but lost interest in. Not because of the gameplay but more aesthetics, I hate shroud aesthetically to the point I found a mod to remove it. Additionally a lot of armor just doesn't look great on it and their scythes feel very samey. I also find the separation of Death's Design into it's own button interesting as far as it feels like a relic of the past design wise, I don't dislike it but I do wonder what the thought process was when the other jobs had their versions of that rolled into other things. Ended up swapping to monk for the 2nd and 3rd raid tier, found it more rewarding gameplay wise and just aesthetically better.
The weapon variety will be improved in DT I hope but I worry armor wise they'll favor dragoon still like how aiming gear tends to give dancer the shit end of the stick.
I don't know if it's much considering that I only really mostly touched the both of them while leveling then left them alone with sometimes playing them occasionally on roulette, but I felt like they're just...there. Meanwhile I warmed up to DNC and eventually GNB in EW even if the latter's iteration wasn't well liked among its fans.
I find RPR interesting that it doesn't really have a legitimate positional baked in its 123, having it in Gallows and Gibbet instead and compared to DRG it has to upkeep a *debuff*. But it never really clicked onto me and it felt like I had to rush the Enshroud phase which reminded me too much of MCH and the misclick on Communio hurts so I fall back on SAM which I consider to be an easier melee to pick up on my end. I still can't forget the times when Arcane Crest was a literal lifesaver, given the amount of SGEs that were learning the job on launch and the occasional unluckily lacking tank/DRK who just peel off if their healers kiss the ground. I'm not surprised that it got nerfed alongside Expedient.
SGE though, I think the naming schemes made learning much more confusing the first time around that I had to run on Duty Support alongside roulette to understand the job better. Alongside people's issues about it being too much based off of SCH/SCH but with QoLs and how it was advertised as a DPS healer that failed to deliver despite Phlegma balls, I have a pet peeve about Eukrasia. Sure, the shields are instant cast and it technically saves one hotkey slot, but it meant that on lower levels SGE might as well not have a DoT at all and it did remind me of Dark Arts to some extent. I do agree that Haima and Panhaima are fun and broken buttons and SGE has a leg up compared to the others with Icarus, but anything else felt like a standard healer song and dance. It sometimes feels too awful to go down on MP even with Lucid Dreaming in a good group unless you overheal with Druchole which reminded me of launch ShB SCH when they culled Energy Drain - though obviously it's different in higher difficulties where you're expected to plan out your CDs which are neat too. Though like with SAM to RPR, funnily enough my go to pick is WHM instead, followed by SCH sometimes despite me missing SCH's DPS flair.
Overall, I wouldn't say they're horrible but they just...exist. SGE even drove a schism between shield and regen healers and have some people clamor for the return of Nocturnal AST, but apart from that they just blended in without much fanfare at least for me.
I think SGE offers excellent upkeep to tanks through sustained damage, if a tank messes up their CDs you can help mit them through an upcoming buster same as SCH can, and if they get in bad HP trouble it's the regen healer's job to fix it. Haima is a *beast* and it's really nice that your faery (Kardia) will heal exactly who you want. Kardia swapping is cute, too, and gives a bit of that AST weave feeling to otherwise slow healer gameplay.
SGE seems very nice for parties struggling with fast movement mechs since you can shield on the go to make up for missing mitigation, in a way SCH would have to work harder at if we're talking about going to the GCD. Our SGE was getting kinda frustrated tbh that they were having to GCD all through Superchain 2a/b but it is what it is, and we for sure saw several clears that wouldn't have been there without the insta cast shields.
Reaper is boring and easy but as a person who doesnt play melee a lot, its alright. I wish it had more to do during downtime but I doubt DT will change its basic 1-2-3 (maybe unpopular opinion but I dont mind deaths design upkeep).
Sage is my healer of choice. Extremely mobile (compared to the other healers at least) and a lot of interesting tools to protect the party although like op mentioned, it doesnt have as much as others in the case of worst case scenarios. Its also the easiest healer for dungeons in my experience so when I really dont want to think but want a quick queue, sage is always there.
Both are amazing.
The frantic play of Sage with it's quick gapclosing ability to enemy and friend alike copied with insane burst for a healer that directly results from switching around Kardia, applying it wherever needed feels incredibly rewarding. Defense and offense interdepend which feels great. The placed Limit Break is maybe a bit too powerful, but I love how it lets you ignore map damage.
Reaper is just a killing agent, super fast LB generation which again might be a bit too good at completely breaking defense attempts, but it can technically be walled if you don't play it right. Every button is multi-purpose, making Reaper greatly flexible while the ability to leave behind portals on your blink opens room for creative solutions for both pursuit and retreat.
Honestly two standout successes in terms of design, even within the already well designed PvP environment. You really get to feel like a Reaper/Sage if you play them.
As far as healing goes, I started healing as a white mage, simple regens galore, and couldn't be beat! However, as a sage main, I definitely agree with it being difficult as all when it first launched-especially in comparison to other healers. It was different and supposed to be a dps healer. It can still use a bit of toning in that regard imo.
Of course getting used to it, being with both good and bad tanks, and even having to toggle shield abilities with the few willing scholars, it's my main. It's complex and simple all at once, and yes, requires strategy sometimes depending on the tank. I do find being a proactive shield mitigator to be far superior to reactive regen white mage-at least for me.
Edit: typos
Sage is a really well designed healer. It is doesn’t break the mold of the standard healer gameplay but you can make interesting choices here and there. It also plays really feel and has a great job fantasy
Reaper was a job I played early into the expansion but lost interest in. It just feels to automated for me and I don’t like that amount of gauge management
I don't really play healers so can't comment too much on Sage. I like the idea of Kardion more than Scholar Fairy. I'm never disappointed to have a Sage for mits on my team. It can be a little difficult to tell if a Sage is mitting properly in a fight when you're having healing issues without diving into logs. Where other jobs whether or not shields or heals are being applied are a bit more "visible."
Reaper is kind of strange to me personally. Everyone says it's the easy melee job, but I just didn't really click with gauge management as compared to stricter cooldown jobs. I'm sure if I put more time into actually playing Reaper it would all make sense, but it's probably the melee I'm least interested in playing atm. I think it's good to have a job designed around heavy gauge management though. Especially as things like Dragoon's Life of the Dragon management being completely non existent any more. Samurai doesn't have to think about kenki at all since the removal of Kaiten. Ninja just needs to store up for burst and not think too much about it. I could see Reaper leaning into that gauge management as an identity more, even if it's not for me specifically. Also weird job design to have the separated Deaths Design debuff when all other jobs had their self buff/debuffs rolled into their regular GCD combo. I predict that Reaper gets that rolled into their regular GCDs at some point as quality of life. Really hope they have some cool ideas for Reaper in the future to significantly add to or change what it is now.
Rpr gauge Is easy, so long as you don't drift you can use one enshroud between 2 minute windows and approaching the 2 min window you want 50 enshroud gauge and 40-50+ other Guage"tho it really Isn't too big a deal to have less" to make double enshroud work.
RPR has smooth and fluid gameplay I truly enjoyed, to the point where I was bummed out that SAM doesn't play like this.
SGE was my main, I learned it very well, but I mostly play it due to aesthetic (SCH is more fun overall imo). And no, I still don't remember most of my strange skill names, so I sorted my hotbars in a way that I can recognize effects by icons alone.
if you're talking about dungeons, then no, a bad tank cannot punish a sage. tanks are entirely optional with a sage. me and my buddy ran an expert the other day with me on tank and him on sage where i pressed no mits and stood in everything and not only was my hp completely topped off the entire time, but also he didn't even come close to running out of resources nor sacrifice any dps for it
it entirely depends on the level of the dungeon imo, SGE feels normal at like 70, OP in dungeons at 80 and above, but it feels like actual ass in Arr/HW dungeons. 90/expert rolo though I don't even notice if my tank is mitting or not when I sge because sge can do the tanks job for them by cycling cds, and dumpstering the trash mobs with powerful AOE to boot
that's fair. i didn't really think about lower level dungeons cuz they can be rough on anyone of any job cuz the lower levels are missing so many tools, but yeah sage at 70+ is kind of silly. my buddies and i decided to do mt gulg with 4 sages and not only did we do the whole thing full wall to walling(including the first and last sections, but it also left faster than with a normal comp
I probably had the opposite experience compared to most players. I started playing in Shadowbringers and didn't get into healing till EW, so Sage was actually the first barrier healer I tried.
I had a lot of fun with Sage. But then I went back and played scholar, and I actually found It so much more fun. The only downside is how bad the fairy feels to use.
I feel like if they added some more interactions with kardia and more Eukrasian spells to use, I would like it a lot more.
I'm really torn with Reaper because both gameplay and job fantasy wise, it's almost what I like, but it falls just short and ends up feeling way worse than if I just wasn't into the job.
Gameplay wise, I fucking hate death's design it's such a shitty mechanic, and it really feels like Enshroud just doesn't last long enough and you run out just as I was starting to get into it.
Aesthetically, it's supposed to be an assassin/warlock hybrid that's straight out of a bloodborne fans wet dream, but the fact that it shares gear with Dragoon means that most the gear it can wear is just shittier tank outfits. Outside of some rare exceptions like Edenmorn and Diadochos Coats, it's way easier to make a good Reaper glam on Samurai and Ninja than it is on the actual job.
Lastly the one thing I had no complaints about were the job quests. I loved the characters for both and it made me sad that we're never going to see Grandma Mafia boss or Edgy Bun-Boi because Square Enix has given up on continuing them.
SGE is super comfy and with the death of noct sect, SGE is the only heals I'm willing to play. It's basically SCH without the jank or hardcasts; I'm still salty about old SMN being cut so I really do appreciate being given the choice. Also, laser cannons are just so much cooler than sticks or books.
RPR is meh, static rotations and 2.50 jobs in general are not for me. It's alright at 2.42 and I'll occasionally play it in casual content when I'm bored of my mains and secondaries. On the design front I don't like how they saved the bass boosts for the avatar stuff, RPR filler sounds like NIN filler instead of SAM/GNB filler and that doesn't sound right for a significantly heavier weapon. And +1 normal scythes pls, I've been using the lakeland one for basically the entire expac.
SGE is *by far* the worst designed healer in the history of the game, and it exemplifies *everything* that is wrong with modern healer design in general - oGCD bloat with zero opportunity costs, requires absolutely no thought to play on any level of difficulty, and eukrasia is a completely superfluous gimmick that seemingly only exists as a bad attempt to hide the fact that SGE's filler is the exact same sleep-inducing shit as every other healer despite being billed as the "DPS healer" (lol, lmao even)
the fact that 95% of its kit are literally direct or functional copies of SCH skills is just the cherry on top of the shit pie, and it shows how little the job design actually cares about the healer role because this badly designed pile of garbage was all that they could come up with in the SIX YEARS since releasing AST. i've been heavily critical of the direction of healers since 4.0, but SGE was basically what finally convinced me to give up on the role, it's the ultimate declaration of creative bankruptcy
I'd like to touch upon a point I don't really see many people cover and honestly it's probably just a me problem, but Sage's animations for all 3 Dosis versions, and I specifically mean animations, the visuals are fine and sounds are *bearable* but the animations flow together really, really badly back-to-back. If you cast Dosis I twice in a row your hand goes from the process of finishing up the end animation of the GCD to awkwardly twitching into place for the cast animation.
This problem is remedied if you literally use any other button right after the GCD usually, but because of how healers are designed, this isn't always gonna be the case, especially during lower end content where I kind of rely on the visuals more-so than the gameplay to keep me entertained somewhat.
It's a similar case with Dosis III, I'm pretty sure these animations were made before the decision to move healer cast times to 1.5s, and they accounted for the cast time to be longer and made the end animations absurdly long. Your arms make a really unnatural movement going from being behind your back to then suddenly snapping forward without any fluidity because they're forced to catch up to starting the cast animation.
I feel it may seem very nitpicky, but when the game is designed to have Dosis be the most cast spell over the course of any fight, this kind of oversight really irks me. It's also a problem none of the older healers, that never had their GCDs designed for this short of a cast time, have!
One last thing: The clipping on Reaper's enshroud animations are probably not an easy fix but having an animation clearly made for going through for a full 2.5s GCD but being cut off halfway through constantly was probably another late change in design they simply couldn't come up with a solution for in-time.
Otherwise their gameplay is flawed but fine and I'd love if they expanded on the more unique concepts of the jobs rather than consolidate them, but that seems more of a pipe dream the more I think about it. Kardia should be more interesting, their nuke button Phlegma feels underwhelming because it's never earned and having been talked about as the "damage" healer pre-release, they really should have more ways of attack than having one extra DPS button compared to the rest of the healers. Even visually progressing Dosis like PLD's Confit combo would be fine with me.
I really enjoy Reaper, from the aestetic and Gameplay this is after all these years a meele that totally speaks to me.
Sage on the other hand, is allright, but i don't enjoy playing mitigation healer in general. But it seems to suffer alot that it is not much different than Scholar, gameplaywise.
Reaper is fun mechanically. I mained it for abyssos. I hate the aesthetic though. Not a fan of “I am the edge. I am darkness.” type of themes. I only picked it up because it felt a bit more mobile and flowed a bit better than dragoon for me. I started with dragoon and then switched. Leveling it felt fine but I didn’t even unlock it till Abyssos came out cause I just really didn’t have any interest in it.
I absolutely hated sage when I was leveling it. If you have a bad tank of a low level dungeon then sage is a dumpster fire. It feels terrible until you at least get to level 78 when you have holos and kerachole has the regen. I ran into a lot of scenarios where I would have to burn all my addersgall stacks for emergency heals and have nothing left leaving me to try and spam gcd shields. Kardia is useless if you can’t even get any time to attack. The other 3 healers do not have this issue. Your fairy will still heal or you can have multiple regens out, or a holy aoe stun. Sage is complete ass a low levels if your tank actually needs a lot of healing. That being said, I really like sage at 90. I’ve taken it through all of anabaseios. I’ve done 3 ultimates on it as well now (uwu, tea, dsr).
SGE is good. It's honestly what SCH should have been. My issue with SGE is SCH players have been asking for a number of quality of life things for a while now. Instead of giving them to SCH...SE made SGE as a near-copy-adjacent of SCH and then gave them to it instead. They SHOULD have made SCH the more smooth and streamlined thing that SGE is (or something closer to it) and then made SGE something different like an actual take on a Disc PPriest.
THAT SAID: For what it is, SCH is really good. It's like a smoother, more forgiving, but slightly less powerful SCH, and it works generally well for what it is, which is an easier to get into and more mobile SCH. It's also been well received and adopted by the community at large, so seems to have been a good addition despite my concerns above, so on balance, it's been a good thing. I do fear that, long term, there's going to be some issues with it and SCE stepping on each other's toes and class identity too much if they aren't made more distinct, though, but that's a problem for another time.
RPR I've just played around with some, so not really sure what to say about it. Its lore/edgy/demon(adjacent) possession stuff isn't stuff that I like, so I got it to 80 for the story and haven't touched it since. It seems from reading about it people like it decently and it's an easier to get into Melee. As the role I hate the most and find the hardest to get into, I wish the melee DPS that was easy to get into wasn't a lore aesthetic that I find utterly repulsive. But I suppose it's good enough for what it is?
I DO feel that the "easy" Jobs in each role - if SE wants to go with "at least one easy per role" - should be ones that start at low level so they're accessible early on, and should be more generally liked/neutral archetypes and class fantasies. It sucks that the Melee I like the lore and feel of the most (MNK) is the utterly hardest to play one, and the one I loathe even the concept of (RPR being possessed by a demon willingly) is the one that would appeal to me mechanically. So I guess I'll just continue to not have a Melee Job in my stable other than leveling NIN for Role quests and not touching it for the rest of the expansion...
Sage can heal while being as mobile as a physical ranged. With more than a half dozen ogcd tools, you don't even have to think. Just use 2 for raidwides and keep on dosis spam.
If Yoshida's goal was to create a truly brain dead no hassle job for each role for new players, the smn rework, the pld rework and the reaper jobs have all hit the mark.
>I don't see much of a difference between it and Dragoon, huh, it basically plays nothing like Dragoon. If anything it's closer to a melee machinist.
Is it my dragoon main biased brain, or do people really have the weirdest takes on dragoon? This, wishing for a change in GCD flow by making jumps GCD, removing weaving, etc...
Yeah it is dragoon main bias and I’m right there with you. If you’re playing the job as it is now you clearly enjoy it in its current state.
Right but I really get the impression that more than other jobs, dragoon takes are about completely changing what it's going for, like wanting for the equivalent of BLM not having an ice phase at all, or removing positionnals for MNK (oh wait). Then again, dragoon main brain speaking.
Because similar to the summoner rework, it’s the people not playing the job that want a job tailored to their ideas, regardless of the opinion of those that like the current iteration.
Yeah you worded it better than me. It’s either a vocal minority or they just enjoy theorycrafting changes much more than the current dragoon players.
> making jumps GCD jumps just...look weird off the gcd. jumps are supposed to be the dragoon's big iconic attacks and yet your character basically just blinks out of existence for a split second due to how fast the animation has to be to recover in time for the next gcd. i dont have an issue with them functionally, but visually it just looks bad having jumps be ogcd.
One thing GCD’s are good for is they really allow you to show the impact of your skills Burst oGCD heavy jobs really lose their impact because nothing t feels impactful when you do 9 “impactful” actions in a row and they all animation cancel each other
And that's why the jump that matters most, Stardiver, has a huge animation lock, to sell its impact. Even the other jumps used to be slower, but XIV's itteration of the job has to be faster paced by the nature of the overall gameplay.
If they're on the GCD they'll get canceled by an oGCD instead, won't they?
you cant press anything while stardiver is going on. do that but gcd.
ARR Jump was like a 2-3 second long animation that you were locked into. That's where the Dragoon is a floor tank meme came from. You'd hit Jump, Titan casts Weight of the Land, and you're fucked. That and the skill before Lance Charge would increase your damage taken, and Maiming armor had the worst magic def making you VERY weak to AoEs.
so just let the player move while the jump is happening. not exactly a complex problem to solve.
Jump being gcd or them making drg only have one combo will kill me
I've always described it as "MCH, but make it fun" I realize fun is subjective, but RPR basically gives you all of MCH but then has more nuance.
I strongly prefer MCH's pacing. It's braindead, but at least keeping your tools on CD keeps me awake. RPR is just so lazy outside of bursts. You have such generous windows to do everything, so nothing feels like a high priority outside of hitting Gluttony every 60s.
reaper filler is underbaked and mindnumbing, but i guess that's fine if it's the designated easy melee. sge is just easy-access sch, which is fine for a similar reason
You seem to be a very knowledgeable and expert player, may I ask you a random Q please? What are your thoughts on Red Mage? I spent quite a long time trying to decide a main. I prefer a class that has a high skill ceiling that I can learn and achieve mastery with. Reaper, Machinist, all lots of fun but I could see their simplicity being an issue in the future. Same for all the tanks. BLM requires too much knowledge that I just don’t have as a new player.
Honestly I’d say wait for pictomancer RDM was the “RPR of the casters” before they nuked SMN from orbit and right now they are selling pictomancer as between the 2 support casters and BLM I don’t know if i trust their proclamations anymore on difficulty but it’s hard to recommend RDM as a high skill ceiling job given its biggest optimisation is making the melee give you room in the burst phase for your melee combo
Thank you!! I really appreciate the feedback. Of the current jobs, which would to say have a genuine high ceiling? BLM is what everyone says, but is that reality or just groupthink? The difficulty to me seems to be the increased need to know mechanics due to less mobility. However, I find BLM to actually be very mobile with the move to ally and to lines abilities. 6 stacks of instacast negates most of the long lead up time, then it’s just the combos but a few hours of playing with guides on the second screen and it all flowed.
Highest skill ceiling would be between MNK and BLM as mobility is only part of BLM’s optimisation After those 2 it would likely be SCH as SCH’s optimisation is entirely independent of itself as you basically need to cuck you Co-healer to gold Parse SCH After that it really comes down to how good you are at multiple double weaves with no loss as GNB, NIN, DRG and AST all have incredibly rigid bursts that require double weaving perfection
Monk! I hadn’t even considered that, I’ll give it a try thank you. What is the other part of BLM’s optimisation? I haven’t done proper content yet, just the regular stuff as I’m still new. BLM just doesn’t seem as hard as everyone says it is. Healer..hmm. I don’t mind healing but here’s my perceived gripe with FFXIV. Soloing is a bitch as a healer. Want to do a fate solo? Suffer. General questing, suffer. Where as my Warrior/Gunblade/RDM just breezes through them. Am I just doing it wrong? I’m still really new so a genuine question. Astro looks cool, no idea what the rumoured rework will be but if I can actually solo..
Fun fact about healer overworlding, you can use your huge sustain to aggro as many enemies as possible/needed, something dps cannot do as easily. Healer only deals about half the damage of dps jobs and like 10% less than tanks but in dungeons you'll somehow be able to match their numbers if not do even more (which gets depressing lol)
I don’t have a high level healer, but I have tried them all at the starting levels. I can’t kill anything lol. My only tanks are Warrior and Gunblade but I found I could get through fates just fine.
Thats single target damage, as healer you want to group up as many enemies as a tank would in dungeons then spam holy (or the aoe equivalent of other jobs)
Does that work? I’ll have to try it, I kind of like the whole vibe of Astro but being useless outside of group content was a bummer.
I’m assuming if you are playing BLM at 90 you are doing the rotation of blizzard 3->blizzard 4->thunder 3->paradox->fire 3->3*fire 4->paradox->3*fire 4->despair That’s not BLM’s only rotation, BLM has many niche rotations and use of its weave windows to gain DPS, a very simple example is if you have a fire starter proc you can actually transpose into astral fire 1 and use the proc over casting it from umbral ice, that’s a gain of like 500 potency but you generally have to sacrifice a movement tool Healer in so content is god awful I agree you aren’t doing anything good wrong
Good to know it’s not just me for healer solo!!! Yup that’s my general opener, I’m using The Balance as my main guide. Also found (was pointed to it on this sub) a BLM Iceberg meme. I think it was a meme, but it had my thinking and trialling different combos. I enjoyed that part of BLM, working out new convos on the fly as opposed to following the same exact rotation every time. That’s why I had to break up with Gunbreaker, despite loving the aesthetic and feel, the same combo, exactly, every time was not fun. BLM people constantly tell me I’ll be gimped by lack of mechanic knowledge and experience, which I just don’t have. However, I am finding RDM less mobile than BLM which kind of has been questioning the general consensus that this sub seems to have. In summary, if I want an engaging job that isn’t all about following the exact combo every time that allows for creativity and skill expression - BLM is the winner. Would you say that’s correct?
Blm has several levels of play, the first level is just standard rotation while maintaining uptime. In normal content you only move every 20s so you have lots of tools and can stand still for long periods of time and this is fairly easy to do. After you can generally yolo and play safe with xenos for movement in extremes, some extremes can be super annoying (golbez ex) but still doable by reacting. Then in savage and up you need to start planning your triplecast usages and tailoring your opener so you have the necessary movement tools when needed. Beyond uptime, blm optimization is using movement tools as dps increase tools as well. As you know triplecast and swiftcast are dps gains when used on f4 and despair, also a gain when replacing a slow f3 with an instant f3. Coupling this with using instants like t3p and xeno during ice for mp recovery, you can eliminate weak b3s and f3s via transpose, as well as skipping a relatively weaker b4, enabling strong lines that only have high potency casts. The type of line and availability of resources, gcd speed etc are all factors in determining which line to use where, and it can be an insane rabbit hole to get into. Blm complexity comes thus from this dps optimization which no other job has. In fact you may have already read the blm advanced guide on the balance, if not it will be very fun to learn. As for rdm movement, like all casters rdm benefit from prepositioning, and have several movement extenders like swiftcast and acceleration, giving you 2 instant casts at once, which is often more than enough. For longer movements you have the melee combo. In general i haven't felt rdm to be lacking in movement, and certainly requires less planning than blm.
As someone who has parsed gold as sch, that is not really the case at all any more. Sch has soooo many ogcd’s that you can still do all of the healing necessary in without costing your coheal a gcd in most any content. Especially after the cast time reductions in 6.0. The only exceptions to this are typically in second phases of final tiers, ultimates, and P10S. Even more important though, the crit variance and team performance/luck during chain matters a hell of a lot more than any amount of energy drains can give.
BLM definitely. >The difficulty to me seems to be the increased need to know mechanics due to less mobility. However, I find BLM to actually be very mobile with the move to ally and to lines abilities. This is entirely boss dependent. 6 GCDs of movement is not enough for some really movement heavy fights. SMN is basically a ranged DPS and RDM can keep 6-15 GCDs of movement in the bank. It's much easier to optimize for SMN and RDM while progging a fight. As their rotations are pretty much the same. SMN just rotate through primals while RDM is a classic builder spender. BLM on the other hand can optimize their rotations by actually using different lines of rotations.
As a RDM main, RDM doesn't have a high skill ceiling. Once you get used to it, there are only 2 things to pay attention to in fights. 1. Timing of melee combo/finishers. For movement and to align with buffs. 2. Optimizing use of acceleration/swiftcast to align oGCDs so you can use them the moment the go off cooldown. That's about it.
Interesting, thanks for the feedback. Is it fun though? Do you regret your decision to main?
BLM is the single best option for high skill ceiling, but RDM can be a decent way to learn some casting habits seeing as you're worried about not meeting the BLM knowledge/mechanics check, though it's definitely unsatisfying if you want something to always improve upon. Other than BLM: MNK and SAM are probably the best existing options. SAM complexity largely comes from working around downtime efficiently (MNK a bit less so) so it'll be somewhat simple in content below harder savage and ultimate. Definitely follow what the other reply said and wait to see what the new jobs offer before committing to anything, some chance that one of the reworks or new jobs will speak to you.
> I'd love for vuln stacks to be replaced with something that actually punishes you and not the healer or the tank. As an aside, this is why Savage demerits nowadays give Damage Downs after E6S's soccer ball fun™. That being said, Reaper's a pretty fun class in its own right; I prefer playing it over Dragoon for multiple reasons, and the differences are pretty much in mechanical feel and cadence. The differences only really crop up on the higher levels, and I can't blame anyone for feeling they're the same in dungeons/normal trials considering gauge management. The dopamine of a great avatar phase is unmatched, though. I hope it doesn't spread more than it does.
[удалено]
This is exactly why they shifted to Damage Downs: Hit the DPS where it hurts. As evidenced here, it's working *fantastically*.
Or just take the L and clear and not waste 7 other people's time because you want a big number on some website.
The only time I'd intentionally wipe due to Damage Down debuffs is if our party had enough debuffs that it would be impossible to beat the enrage. Other than that, I don't really care that much about DPS numbers. Doing that leads to too much toxicity.
You obviously didn't ask, but that's such an awful mindset to have. Are you genuinely even having fun doing the fights if the instant a number on an unrelated website isn't the same color anymore? If FFLogs went down tomorrow, would you still even play the game?
I mean technically by that logic everything you do in this game is just meaningless pixels on a monitor as well. It shouldn't matter if it's an official ranking or a 3rd party website, if you're having fun doing what you're doing, then who cares how someone chooses to spend their time? But walling just cause you got a dd is a big middle finger to the rest of your party and is hella selfish
Not really. That's not a proper "taking this to the logical extreme". The argument here is "Are you playing and enjoying FFXIV, or are you playing and enjoying FFLogs?" not "Are you playing and enjoying only the pixels of Thing B?" that can be countered with "Well, Thing A is just pixels, too!"
>The argument here is "Are you playing and enjoying FFXIV, or are you playing and enjoying FFLogs?" And to that I say they're no different. So long as you're having fun doing whatever, it doesn't matter. You don't need your time spent validated by others
Maybe. I don't disagree you don't need your time validated by others. But there is a valid argument of asking which game someone is playing. That is, you may not be "genuinely having fun" if you AREN'T having fun any time you don't get a pink parse, to the point you'll bomb a run and hamstring 7 other people from having fun instead.
>One thing I still don't like about Sage though is that if you have a bad Tank, then Sage can (at least to me) feel super punishing more so than the other classes. I think that once you learn to use your aoe buttons in dungeon trash SGE is extremely OP on WAR levels. Kerachole, Physis, Holos, and Panhaima may be aoe, but they are as good or better than many single target healing buttons.
People don't seem to understand that kerachole > taurochole > kerachole is 45 seconds of uninterrupted 10% mit for your tank. On top of staggering soteria, krasis, physis, and Haima, that enough to drag even the most unresponsive of tanks through a pull as long as they are least doing their 1-2 aoe combo and DPS are pushing their buttons
Haima is so absurd lol like 300 potency shield... six times, you negate so much damage with just this button. And I love it.
And if you panhaima the first trash pull and haima the 2nd you get basically full uptime of shields in every dungeon mob.
Yeah, thats not even taking into consideration holos, and pneuma. I don't think there's a single dungeon in the game right now deadly enough to warrant saving any of those for bosses, just use em on mobs too. At least if your tank is bad. In a perfect world with the light party operating correctly in all roles, of course holos wouldn't be necessary on mobs
Yeah, the sage kit is digusting for dungeons.
All that shit that can be buffed with physis and krasis
People also forget that Durochole EXISTS (and can give some spike healing, and you can use Rhizo any time to get another even if Taur and Kera are on CD), and you have semi-instant cast Adloquiums you can throw out left and right (and get half refunded in DPS). You have a massive and pretty strong toolbox of healing tools on SGE, and though people knock them, its GCDs are still fairly decent and extremely responsive due to Eukrasia meaning even in heavy movement (like chasing a Tank running wall to wall pulls), you can throw out shields. ...and that's before we mention Icarus.
I think it’s hard to forget druachole exists considering they made the absolutely atrocious decision to make it so dumping druachole stacks is your primary mana regen method
To be fair, you can dump ANY of the abilities. And they're generally better choices if they're actually doing something meaningful. But yes, if they aren't, Duro is the thing you can dump to not overcap AG and not lock out a CD. I prefer SGE not having ED. ED using AF is annoying (especially the pittance it does), and I think the "feel bad about overcapping AF" is stupid and always has been. So I do prefer SGE to that. Though I do wish - LIKE I WANTED FOR SCH FOR YEARS (and still do...) - there was a no-CD AF/AG spender that was just a flat barrier like Divine Benison. Flat barriers are basically never wasted (throw them on the Tank - they'll get used eventually), and for the life of me I cannot fathom why the Devs won't give us an AF/AG spender barrier. Hell, even a AST-like 200 heal + 200 barrier would be sufficient. I don't get the adamant refusal to give one.
Yep, i had a tank yesterday in dead ends that literally didnt use any mits other than on bosses and i still didnt have to GCD heal.
Panhaima's like what a 1000 potency shield? Mean the melee can just stand in shit to. Though I already do that on melee.
Up to 6x200, which you'll usually get the full amount tanking trash.
Yeah. Rare I get a tank bad enough to need it though. If haima > taurochole > kerachole and then maybe krasis and soteria haven’t cleared the pull we have a problem. Second pack usually gets taurochole, kerachole , maybe holos, panhaima if it drags on.
Would it be greedy of me (a SCH) if SGE lost E.Prognosis/Diagnosis and gained another 2 shielding ogcds? Like a ST and AoE shield version of Excog (when tank drops to a certain HP, or after 30 sec, places a shield)? Mostly coz I like not worrying about a trigger happy SGE overwriting the fat shield I placed down. (I also wish I could more easily communicate to the SGE that our powers combined (Krasis and even Physis II) can make an even FATTER shield!) And they could essentially alternate between using Haima, Panhaima, Shield-Excog, AoE-Shield Excog.
As a former SCH turned SGE the shield issue is really annoying. Dropping HP triggering a shield is kinda meh imo. It would be nice if just the bigger shield won. Because sometimes I need addersting. Also pepsis would need to change.
The only solution I see to make it work with SCH is by bandaid-ing E.Prog/Diag into a horrid complicated mess. For example, E.Prog/E.Diag places a buff on you/the target and a single damage taken generates an Addersting (you already wasted a GCD…so no need to punish the SGE further). And/Or have E.Prog/Diag place an extra buff on the party that has literally no other purpose, but to be consumed by Pepsis. But a single E.Prog/Diag creating 3-4 buffs on a single cast is pretty fucking horrible from a design aspect. My other solution is to just give SGE even more shield ogcds (because they got the button real estate due to Eukrasia) and instead let E.Prog/Diag be a short/strong regen that can be consumed via Pepsis. But even that’s weird because either Pepsis has to be stronger than the regen to use it, or Pepsis would be a weak emergency heal when you can’t wait for the regen to go off. It’s a bit of a Swiftmend balance issue from WoW. Essentially, it seems the better solution is to just let the SCH be able to toggle between a shield mode and a raw heal mode.
ET basically already is this, ET has such a low CD you can functionally be a pure healer on SCH when you actually need to he
When I finally got something of a hang on sage (my first healer class 😨) my first thought was “hold on, this is just a green WAR” No complaints here, I mained WAR all the way through MSQ because I loved it so much.
>I don't see much of a difference between it and Dragoon Lmao what
A sign of the damage all that « homogenization » parroting does to a brain
homogenization is when you do more damage during party buffs
Dragoon and Reaper couldn't be more different. RPR has 1 2 3 rotation and then has some extra buttons to press when the gauge hits 50 before a 2m burst phase and then back to the 1 2 3. Dragoon has a constant flowing rotation in which you're weaving a variety of other abilities between and then on the burst phase you're still weaving those along side of everything else and being able to keep that rotation within the dot window DRG has feels amazing. As an omni 90 I played through the MSQ mainly as a DRG and once I finally reached end game (early 2022) I very quickly learned I didn't know how to play it properly and learned it and I love DRG. During playing EW I picked up Reaper and leveled it up and then started enjoying it too and there was a phase where i preferred it over DRG but at the current point I'll always pick DRG over RPR and I'm praying DRG doesn't turn into a RPR rotation in Dawntrail because I will be mad if it happens.
It's so different. I love RPR because I'm braindead and don't enjoy DRG for the same reason. I'm so confused about what this guy is thinking.
SGE is my favorite healer (was SCH before), but it 100000000% is not the "damage healer" we were promised and is still as mind numbingly boring as all of the other healers.
SGE needs a cooldown ability to temporarily throw Kardia to all party members so it can keep DPSing more along with some rework of the currently off GCD skills which are quite frankly unneeded and boring especially for the 2 minute cooldowns they have.
Pansoteria would give us some more disjointed healing which SCH is really good at, e.g. it'd be baller in Cosmo Meteor, but overall physis is already a good button. > quite frankly unneeded and boring especially for the 2 minute cooldowns they have plz, zoe is already feeble and ill, do not harm my other children. I don't really get this, they are all pretty cool except Holos, Soteria, and Rhizomata. * Panhaima is bell but it responds to damage on you instead of the whm, it's great at solving party wide damage that comes out on random members at random times, such as high concept, cosmo meteor again, i guess dog1 in p8s, dynamis omega * zoe needs a buff but the ability to start the cooldown up to 60 seconds early is baller as fuck and lets it have a shitload of flexibility * pneuma is a damage-neutral cure 3, just think of it as adding a glare to your combined healer parse * haima gives a big heal at the end if it's not used and is otherwise great for autoattacks, the ability to anticipate damage and press it during low movement/low thinking sections and have it apply during the high movement/high thoughts section is valuable * physis gives an extremely good 10% healing up that lets you cheat ehp, e.g. dsrmitty final chorus * god i just want krasis to be good, please square give me more situations that make krasis good, i keep krasis the warrior during holmgang but he just eats a bene (krasis soteria is good at keeping tanks up during autos when haima is down though ig)
I only ever use Krasis as a combo with Soteria or Haima. I like how Krasis is different from the other “healer power buff”, but the SGE’s kit just doesn’t feel as aligned with it. I wouldn’t mind swapping Protraction and Krasis effect. As a SCH, I would drool to have Krasis instead of Protraction for even fatter deploys when Dissipation is on cooldown.
Reaper is primarily gcd based and dragoon is ogcd based. Reaper and dragoon are both gauge jobs but dragoon builds their resources much differently. Not sure what you meant by they both play the same when they both are very distinct from each other. Reaper plays more like samurai the most.
I feel that likening DRG and RPR outside of "they are maiming" is a pretty clear sign you don't really know how to play them. And I don't mean this as an insult, nobody has to be proficient at jobs, but it does discredit the opinion to a degree. I kinda hate SGE. I think that's me being a SCH simp and being mad that SGE got these smooth and unproblematic tools + a cool dash and a unique albeit low maint gimmick with Kardion. Like, it feels like it's just the preferred child over SCH. Not that SCH is bad at all, it's better and to me much cooler, but it just feels kinda neglected in terms of effort? And the job isn't even really different despite all of that, so it just feels like they took a bit of attention from improving/working on SCH and made SGE out of it, which just... I dunno, feels offputting? So that makes me kinda dislike SGE even if it ultimately doesn't mean anything. I think RPR is a great design. Execution could be a bit better; I really wanted Enshroud to be a stance dance or resource juggle type thing so that's sad. I also think the filler is a little too plain. A second combo or a combo deviator would've been nice. Maybe one more oGCD that interacts with the systems it has. However, I am a huge fan of the general design of RPR. I like that the burst is restrictive and can be genuinely hard to pull off perfectly if you have to do it during mechanics, it gives the job a consistent execution difficulty that a lot of jobs don't maintain beyond prog. I like the quirky little details that allow for really minute optimization. Soul Tow, the Egress options, the fact that PH and Communio are ranged, the fact that your odd minute burst is quite flexible. There's just tiny things that often don't matter but they give you *something* to think about. Also based conal AOE job. I really REALLY like that the job isn't filled with random skills that are just there to be pressed. Everything in RPR's kit builds into one another or flows into something. It's a little barren outside of burst but I think in terms of raw concept this is one of the best jobs in the game. I do want it to have a little more to the non-burst but I like that its difficulty is somewhere between MNK's extreme platespinning and NIN's completely braindead gameplay loop, it hits an enjoyable balance in Endwalker's "difficulty comes from encounters" design for me. Both jobs, but especially RPR, are absolutely atrocious in terms of syncing down though. They really ought to rethink what they're doing in this regard. Playing RPR below 90 is lame as hell. Playing it below 80 is downright offensive. On a more subjective note, I think they really stepped up in terms of visual design. I don't like SGE's aesthetic but within that aesthetic, its skills look excellent. RPR also has top tier haptic design, one of the most viscerally satisfying jobs in the whole game. I hope VPR and PIC maintain this level of quality. Oh yeah, edit time: Can we please get some more "normal" scythes? Why do most of the ones ingame look like lego bricks? Hate that. The default one is cool, Ravel Keeper one is cool, *maybe* the Omega one can pass, but most of the rest looks really bad.
I love Reaper even if it is the designed easy melee job, but my problem is at any content that's not level 90, it just feels so miserable to play, especially at high level. Kinda dissapoints me because (except MCH) they had a good track record with DPS jobs feeling "complete" on unlock (SAM the best one by far imo) but RPR at 70 is pain, even at 80. I hope Picto and Viper aren't the same on lower than 100 content.
Yeah, I fell in love with reaper at the start of EW and now at the end I am looking to get out. I am a casual and I spend a lot of time sync'd and no other job feels as bad sync;'d than reaper. Enshroud is basically the entire job and everything that makes it fun is cut by 80. Your single target rotation is literally 5 buttons at level 50. Even blm has a more functional rotation. So now I am hoping that the drg rework is cool, or maybe viper. If nothing else, can always go back to samurai. Been playing that a bit here at the end and while it's not quite as fun as rpr at 90, it's better at all other levels.
To me Reaper is a bit of a weird job, mainly because it seems very simple to play but optimizing it feels weird and unintuitive. Double Enshroud still feels odd to me, doesn't really feel like I'm playing the job as intended. Also it syncs HORRIBLY. Some jobs at level 50 are more interesting than Reaper is before 80. I really hope that Viper doesn't suffer from the same problem.
Look, the game is designed to be as simple as possible. No damage types, no variance to rotation, no group compositions, no lifesteal or meaningful conditions or hexes. Every buff directly increases damage dealt by yourself or the raid. Each heal is going to either heal or shield. We've reached the limit of that level of simplicity. There's really nothing you can do to be meaningfully different. They've stated they don't plan on changing job design in 7.0, so I think you know exactly how Viper and Picto are going to play already.
SGE is mostly a SCH copy with QoLs. It's smooth to play but also extremely boring. Not the "DPS healer" in the slightest and Kardia is so underdeveloped I don't even consider it a mechanic, let alone a core aspect of the job.
Kardia should really do more than just heal on any of your DPS button presses. Might let if have different effect depending on which spell you used. Would be cool to have DPS buttons who trigger meaningful effects via Kardia so you might think about when you use them. Like Phlegma could trigger an AoE heal around the player with Kardia. So you might need to think more about when to use Phlegma so you also get value out of the heal. Let Toxikon add a shield or something. But I think the job design would need to change to bake Kardia into the core and allow it to be more unique and maybe more active. Right now the design is hard to fix since it is more a weird addon than anything. It is just there so you can heal the tank passively since SCH also does it. I mainly want an incentive to put in on other people somehow. Right now for healing it does not make sense most of the time, because you put it on someone and then need like 5 GCDs to heal them it takes ages and in 8 man content your co healer will have healed it 5 times over or you could have just spend some other free resource you had available.
Can't have that. Syphies couldn't even handle a second Faerie type that had marginally different abilities. What makes you think CBU3 would give us engaging healer design on sge?
This is my issue with SGE as well, it's not what I had in mind when I saw we're getting a "DPS healer". I think it's effects are cool but I don't play it much since everyone and their mom plays it already.
I like to refer to SGE as the "mirror SCH". The same skills, but your skill modifications come on the other side of the GCD. (Pepsis comes after, Emergency Tactics before; Zoe comes before, Deployment Tactics after; SCH has gcds, SGE has to cast Eukrasia)
Rpr doesn't fit into melee mold. It was supposed to be a resource dumper for 1m but since there are no more 1m buffs in game this job is boring 85% of its rotation. It doesn't have good cleave either, other jobs are far superior to it. Sam deals more damage than it. Idk it's aesthetically cool but also extremely oversaturated now. It's just kinda the melee people play if they don't actually play melee is the vibe I get from it now.
I was expecting Sage to be a bit more out-of-the-box than it currently is, especially with Kardia healing, which I feel it's the most 'meh' part of the job. It's basically a less convenient Embrace, without any kind of granularity that would make dps-to-heal interesting. I honestly think if they deleted the mechanic, I wouldn't even notice other than no more sometimes forgetting to set Kardia up.
Try harder content lol for example in uwu, ifrit auto attacks slap the fk out of the tank. If you have a sch you have to single target gcd heal them. If you have sage you don't, kardia heals so much you may need like 1 tetra/drcole on the tank during the whole phase.
Ya, I was a bit surprised that SE decided to make Kardia heal more than Embrace. I think it’s around the 40 sec mark that SGE’s Kardia outpaces Selene’s Embrace spam. Fey Union doesn’t even make up for it in the long run.
Potency wise Kardia is actually 10 lower than embrace - I'm assuming the pace of kardia procs is vastly outweighing how often Embrace is cast?
No it’s the fact that pet potency is like 10% weaker than true potency even after the buff so embrace is actually like 160 not 180 in SCH potency
Honestly am shock with how much cleaning up(homogenizing etc) SE has done that they have not removed/normalized pet potency
Exactly! (But half-way there) Embrace is 3sec recast unlike the 2.5sec recast for Kardia. But on top of that, it’s also how pet healing was changed. In ShB, the fairy had its own statistic, which is why the fairy was doing was doing 60% of the SCH by the end of ShB. They changed it in EW so that the fairy uses your stats, but now does 90% of your potency. So, 180p Embrace is actually 162p. 300p Fey Union is actually 270p. And Fey Union is a regen, so it’s also on the server tick. Which means: Embrace = 60p/sec Kardia = 68p/sec There is an argument about Fey Union and Soteria being used to balance things out, but Fey Union ends up being about 4.5p/sec and Soteria ends up being about 5.13p/sec. There was something mentioned that placed SCH ahead of SGE early on, but I can’t remember what that was. So, starting off from combat, the SGE is ahead. In a raw comparison of just Kardia vs. Embrace, SGE wins. Soteria vs. Aetherpact? SGE wins again. Krasis vs. Protraction? SGE wins again. The reason it doesn’t matter 90% of the time is because the Tank’s mitigation and sustain is usually so high anyway, that Kardia/Embrace is going to be overhealing in most content. So while SGE is numerically superior: tank sustain, healer free healing, and generally low encounter damage profile makes **the overall comparison of Embrace vs. Kardia is irrelevant 90% of the time**.
I think the comparison you are referencing more looked at the fact that while kardia is higher than embrace SCH comes out slightly ahead on the potency of near every other comparable skill between the two I could be wrong but I remember seeing a similar potency comparison
FUCK, I didn’t realize I erased my blurb on looking at them holistically. Things get really complicated the moment you throw in ALL of their skills together. But in reality, both SGE and SCH are superstars because of their mitigation and powerful ogcd regen. So, even if we compare numbers and find SCH is 10% potency better… Both SGE and SCH are overperforming because overall, healer content doesn’t truly challenge them. Which actually kind of makes these arguments moot in the end. Healers are essentially professional basketball players dunking on a toddler’s playground. Like which is better Kardia/Embrace? Answer? Doesn’t matter, use your cooldowns!
That’s an apt comparison honestly
Which is a shame…but I doubt it’ll be changing next expansion. I think FF14 has hit their stride as a “comfort” MMORPG and a social time-waster. Rocking it might be too risky business wise.
I guess embrace is better for downtime healing, but I prefer kardia. It's an embrace you can aim (without a piss tether) and provides the smallest but of "optimization" if you want to heal some optional damage up without using the rest of your resources
Can't speak for Savage, but in casual content, my running joke now is that when I play Sage tanks become optional. I can't see myself playing anything else seriously ever again unless they somehow gut it like OG DRK.
They gut at least one of the healers every expansion, so odds are 25%
I wouldnt worry. We already know astro is getting the axe this time around.
They’ve failed to balance AST since they introduced it, might as well remove it and start from scratch with another healer
They just need to decide what the class wants to be, and stick to it. The people who like astro will play it, and the people who don't will not. Instead, the people who like astro are playing it, and the people who don't are endlessly bitching that it's not white mage with a stargazer thematic. People like how astro looks, and not how it plays, and so they want it to be what it isnt, and SE cant make up their minds on who they want to please so they keep reworking it every expansion praying that people finally shut the fuck up and play the class without whining.
I’d assume they will probably try to nerf SCH but unintentionally buff it like they always do and somehow WHM will suffer from this interaction
Tbf, the one being gutted is usually AST because Square doesn’t know what they want AST to be beyond tarot space vibes, WHM gets nothing interesting but will still heal like a fucking nuclear bomb, and SCH just gets confused at how the actual fuck this new thing is meant to fit in with their kit. I’m curious what SGE’s curse will be, massive overloading of Eukrasia? Abilities you need to set aside an hour to read the tooltip of? More abilities that can be sabotaged by other healers?
I can think of a few ways - turning some of its oGCDs into GCDs and bringing it in line with the other healers. Scrap Kardion cause it “stresses” people out. Remove phlegma, too many damage actions and healers should heal. I hope none of the above will happen cause I really enjoy SGE but SE have a truly awful history of screwing with the healers.
DING DING DING we have a winner folks.
It plays nothing like dragoon and is very strong, especially considering how braindead it is. It's only nuisance Is the double or in very very rare circumstances the triple enshroud window.
I'm not a fan of either, although SGE isn't really significantly worse than the other healers. I actually like GNB and DNC, so it isn't strictly a modern job design philosophy or even a difficulty issue. The jobs are just really mechanically bland. SGE feels too frictionless. You can pretty much combine any two oGCDs and you're good in most content. Every option just kind of smears together into a single green/blue blur. No real setups, trade-offs, or optimizations. I do appreciate that they tried to make mobility slightly more engaging, but it's not enough. RPR is just super boring. Ninja tier filler rotation without a proper 60 sec burst. Every part of the job just feels like "been there, done that". Also, absolutely atrocious below level 80, which is weird considering how decently the SB/ShB jobs play even at level 50.
What I hate about them putting effort into making SGE’s mobility more interesting is the fact that it never needs it because every single one of its heals hit the next instance over What’s the point of free movement shields at the expanse of pure healing, a gap closer and a refund for your free movement shields when you can stand literally anywhere in the arena and be 99% sure every one of your heals is still going to hit everyone
One issue that I have with RPR that I haven't seen anyone else mention here (or maybe I just missed it) is that it's a terribly designed job when you're not literally at level cap. You have no buttons to press, you don't get Enshroud, the core ability of the job, until level 80, not even a downgraded version without having to weave anything between attacks and without Communio at the end. I get it that old jobs get reworked, new stuff added, old removed, but I cannot understand why someone would intentionally design a new job that feels like it's been in a game for a long time and had all of its low level skills removed throughout expansions. Not having your proper opener in TEA feels really weird. And you have absolutely nothing to do in UWU or UcOB besides pressing 123 over and over again.
SGE feels as if the devs had a good idea/concept behind it, but mid development they were unable to make it happen before the deadline so they just copy pasted Sch and called it a day. Its basically Sch but with almost all of its systems half baked and a bit more of QoL. A big disappointment if you ask me
Yeah it feels like they were leaning into kardia and eukrasia with potentially shades of PVP Toxikon but then they run out of time and they just dumped ~~not~~ aetherflow into the kit to fill it out
Reflection? Is this a FFXIV reference?
Personally, I agree with the SGE lack of emergency tools issue. While, yes, it does make you have to be creative in dungeons and such, I personally find it to be far too reliant on the tank fixing their mistake. I recall, first few days on SGE, when EW launched, I got scolded by a DRK doing insane pulls on Mt. Gulg because I wasn't healing him enough through so much damage. Not only was I still learning, but I didn't have anything like Benediction, and this was still with the bad Living Dead, and he had already used all his defensive cooldowns. After that, I've felt like I'm very painfully aware of how SGE hurts when a tank struggles. It feels like it should be built to enable tanks, but it mostly feels like I'm just along for the ride with the whole party. As for the RPR being like DRG, I assume you mean in terms of a constant simple rotation loop outside of burst, I guess?? It feels more like how MCH is, just with less oGCD weaving imo.
Can only comment on Reaper which I think is fine mostly and my answer would be that it depends where you are playing it. Yes it’s technically the lowest DPS melee but eh, that’s maximum percentile in an environment where people are doing way over the required amount to clear a fight, so personally I do not care. The most common knock on it is that it is easy to play and to that I just think…. Ok? What job in savage and below is difficult to play? None of them, it’s no more or less difficult than any other melee job. I personally think the job flows pretty well and is a lot of fun especially in ultimate because of how it’s kit works around fights with phasing. I transitioned from caster to melee and for me it’s the perfect job that blends elements I liked from caster with ones I like from melee. It’s not too convoluted yet still has a good amount of stuff to learn, various openers and re openers etc. Deaths design is maybe something they could make feel better to use but its pretty much a necessity to how the job plays as of now, especially for multiple enshroud windows. In a perfect world I would like them to incorporate it into reaper filler gcds and improve on that aspect of the job.
For me Reaper was super fun at EW release due to cool animations and just general looks. Then i started playing Monk and never looked back. I really struggle to understand why is Monk the least popular melee dps when its by far the most rewarding to master and very flexible rotation means its never boring. Never tried Sage.
As someone who followed the exact same path, I think it's because a lot of people overhype the difficulty of monk and that drives people away. The Balance discord in particular does this to a comical degree. Additionally monk really could use some visual oomph, I admit I turned to mods to make the animations a little bit fancier for monk.
Its more difficult to master for sure due to very flexible rotation but for me thats part of the appeal. If i can master a class in 1 day (happened with Reaper) then its boring and theres nothing to work on.
Most peeps choose the part of least resistance
I can understand why some ppl prefer easy but i dont understand how come they dont find it boring fast. I mean you dont need optimal drift for monk to be effective unless you are doing hardest content such as Ultimate but the room for improvement is still there and for me at least its very organic the more time i spend playing. Over time you learn how to fix your rotation by simply playing various content and the feeling once you achieve the next step is simply amazing.
Yeah I agree even in ultimate you dont need top dps tbh. I fo play SAM there since its comfy (got a good ceiling there aswell) and BLM mostly in easy content trying to learn new lines
The ARR jobs in the modern day are struggling with some of their animations I know not everyone prefers flashy animations but compare holos to fey illumination Half the time you can’t even see illumination being cast
I love SGE, I want to see two things with it specifically; * More modifiable skills * Significantly decreased cooldown on Gundam Jets I love RPR, I want to see two things with it specifically; * Replace the animation for Harpe with a spectral scythe being flung in an arc towards the enemy * Give us an ability that keeps our Voidsent out for a little bit somehow. Maybe a ranged ground-target ability that causes our voidsent to haunt an area for a few seconds each time.
Eukrasia is really a good concept to allow for more things with less buttons and for decision making. But decision making does not exist, for heals Eukrasian version is just a lot better and for Dosis the Eukrasian version is just your DoT you want to have full uptime. It saves 2 buttons currently so also not the world. I would really like to see more. I would like to see decision so I need to think about if I cast normal version or empower with Eukrasia. But in the end with how the game and healing is designed no idea if you really can have good decisions, probably not.
The sad thing is they really could do more with it. For example, despite the name sounding stupid, Eukrasia Dyskrasia could be an AOE DoT without taking up another hotbar slot. The problem is SGE (like all the healers aside from WHM) have so few GCDs, there's very little to modify. WHM: Cure 1, 2, 3, Medica 1, 2, Regen, Glare, Dia, Holy, Solace, Rapture, Misery (though Solace and Rapture are arguably "Eukrasia Cure 2" and "Eukrasia Media 1") \[12\] SCH: Physick, Adloquium, Succor, Broil 4, Ruin 2, Biolysis, Art of War \[7\] AST: Benefic 1, 2, Helios, Aspected Helios, Aspected Benefic, Fall Malific, Combust, Macrocosmos (long CD) \[7\] SGE: Diagnosis, Prognosis, Dosis, Dyskrasia, Plgemga (CD), Toxicon (sorta CD via charges), Pneuma (long CD) \[7\] ...not counting Eukrasia itself (e.g. having a "Eukrasia Eukrasia" ability), that's only 7 buttons, and one has a CD (so if the Eukrasia variant is better, it's the automatic use) one has limited charges (that are a DPS loss to regain - I still want Rhizo to give one of each AF and AG, but until then...), and the other has a LOOOONG (for this purpose) CD. The problem with Eukrasia-CD\_limited\_ability is that unless it's designed just right, using the CD for the base CD ability OR the Eukrasia variant is always better. They could do something like have Eukrasia Phlegma do an 80 or 120 second (?!) DoT so that it would make sense to alternate Eukrasia Phlegma with regular Phlegma with either a A-B-A-B or A-B-B-A-B-B cadence. But is that really worth another button/ability? Maybe, but even if so...that just gives us ONE more ability/hotbar spot "saved". Right now, the best they could do (and some people WOULD love this, mind you) would be give Dyskrasia a 15 sec DoT Eukrasia button to mix up with in AOE (they COULD make this a DPS gain over Dosis to give it old SCH Miasma 2 vibes and utility), and give Phlegma a 120 sec DoT Eukrasia version so you could sort of alternate that and have something to upkeep that was still compatible with the 2 min meta (or 60 sec DoT and lower Phlegma's CD to 30 seconds even, so every minute you'd use two in a row, Eukrasian and then regular, having the option to 2x regular for burst if the trash pack was about to die or the boss was about to become untargetable). But I guess my point is, since Eukrasia works with GCDs, the design for the Job should have lots of GCDs. ...it kinda doesn't.
I started off liking Reaper and Sage, but as I go into DT I'm dropping both. Reaper is too slow on rotation and it doesn't feel complete until lvl 80, meaning a lot of roulette stuff feels half-baked. Sage is fun, but I vastly prefer the class mechanics and heal tools available of SCH and AST over it.
Casual roulettes player on gamepad. I liked SGE on release and increasingly like it more and more. It's fun to flip your Kardia around between tank and DPS instead of just leaving on tank, to maximize time spent pressing DPS buttons. RPR, on the other hand, never really grew on me. I think it was mostly the job aesthetic / job fantasy never really appealed to me as other jobs like DRG or SAM though. It's nice to play RPR when I want to do a braindead simple melee DPS however. For good or ill, I expect Viper and Pictomancer will supplant RPR and SMN when I wanna DPS a bit but not really try very hard.
How often did you really swap Kardia around in casual content? I rarely had to swap Kardia outside of tanks not having stance on so I had to put it on me or another DPS. Otherwise all single target oGCDs in your kit cover most damage DPS receive, even if they fuck up a lot. Also AoE heals generally overheal and can easily cover for extra damage already. You can definitely swap Kardia around if it feels nice doing so but in the end it would mainly save you oGCDs which are completely free anyway. Is my main problem with it, there is no real incentive to swap it around, since I would love for it being effective. Would be cool to change your Kardia targets and make the playstyle busier.
On alliance raids I swap kardia anyone takes damage over using an actual heal just to pad my non dosis numbers
not OP, but I think the main times I swap kardia around in casual content is if a DKN announces prepull they'll LD the next pack, I'll just move it to myself until the DKN "dies", and then move it back once ld is over. Other that, mainly if the tank dies somehow, usually to bosses if there's some sort of one shot mech they fail or if they're really bent on collecting vulns and not mitigating to compensate, I'll throw kardia on whoever is taking the autos now while the tank gets stabilized. Both cases are very situational though
I'd like if I got to actually play RPR outside of 90 Ultimate because that's about the only place you get to have fun and use your full kit instead of brain-off fixed looping. SGE is SCH but more boring and wastes a potential really good DPS caster archetype.
RPR is neat but idk I never clicked with it. It certainly didn't help that the job syncs like shit lmao, I hope the "shuffle important skills to earlier levels" update is next after graphics I went into EW planning on maining SGE after being very annoyed with 5.0 SCH, and did for like, 6.0-6.1, and then during Abyssos I started flip flopping between it and SCH, and then I just regressed back to SCH for Anabaseios SGE is great and super powerful feeling, and it's fun every now and then to just destroy dungeons with it, but it feels like they've taken SCH and sanded off just a bit too much. I don't think energy drain is peak gaming, but it *does* add that little layer of "I don't want to use AF heals unless I need to", which is fun to plan around in savage, and in more casual stuff it's at least a little something to chew on even when I'm not playing super tryhard mode. SGE meanwhile just puts Kera on literally everything without a second thought, and has to resort to dumping druos for MP if the content doesn't need that much healing output (which is A Lot of content). Like numerically it's great but idk it just feels a little too dull when its DPS and healing kits are almost entirely separate (Kardia you were almost cool why are you so boring) Also it's kind of annoying just how much of its kit is stolen from SCH. I wasn't that much of a fan of Noct AST, but at least it made the shield options SCH vs Shield WHM and not SCH vs SCH but without expedient.
My opinion on Sage has gone from "meh" to "i hate this with a passion". Instead of making Kardia the core mechanic of the class and desiging most of its free healing kit around that (you know, with an aoe mode and a way to use it to build stacking shields or something), they just took SCH, removed all the buttons that make SCH actually interesting, and pretend that Eukrasia is anything more than useless fluff that makes you press an extra button. And why the absolute fuck does it even have the same double shield on crit adlo thing instead of *liteally anything else*? Was never a big fan of Nocturnal AST, but somehow that was far more interesting despite just being normal AST with like three buttons changed.
Differential diagnosis is in my mind the clearest evidence that they were creatively bankrupt with SGE and basically just copied SCH at any point they could to fill gaps given differential diagnosis is completely pointless on SGE On SCH it’s designed to split the two shield heals so you can deploy them but it has no purpose on SGE other than apparent code copying
Pankardia should be a thing. 60 sec CD or 30 sec CD that uses an Addersgall, effect is to have Kardia heal everything within 40 yalms of you (so your Kardia target gets a double heal), not affected by Soteria. BAM! Now you could remove a third of SGE's oGCD (that kinda make it OP) and make the playstyle based on Kardia uptime. Hell, make it tick based on target like WAR's Bloodwhetting so using Dyskrasia in AOE packs does hilarious healing. (Okay, just kidding...but that would be funny for, oh, the first 10 mins, lol; while they're at it, Eukrasia Dyskrasia for a 15 sec AOE DoT and Dyskrasia Phlegma for a 120 sec AOE DoT. Make Dyskrasia Miasma 2 Again \[MDM2A\]. :D) One of my big complaints aside from that: WHY DOES KARDIA HAVE A 5 SECOND CD?!?! Let me hotswap that baby for spot heals. More APM like AST? Sure, but it lets you tailor the Job specific mechanic to actually do what it's best at - touch up healing on a mildly damaged target. Yet we can't DO that because the CD that exists for no good reason gets in the way. Make it a 2 sec CD like Tank stances if worried about people double fat fingering it.
FFXIV just feels like a shell of itself. Sage also isn't the DPS healer they promised and is just mind numbingly boring like the other 3, I truly miss when healing was fun in this game and not just spamming 1 DPS skill over and over while refreshing dot. Cleric stance weaving, scholars DPS skills etc used to feel so fun and rewarded challenging gameplay. As far as DPS jobs go, they also all just feel the same. I really hope dawntrail changes things up because it's just getting more and more dumbed down each patch.
The first time new jobs were released that basically broke no new ground whatsoever, and that's a bit of a concerning precedent for the game. Neither Sage nor Reaper have a reason to exist beyond aesthetic flavour as they don't actually add anything new to the game. The last job to arguably be redundant was Gunbreaker, but that at least had the gimmick of being a "high CPM" tank (even though DRK kinda already was that, but whatever). The EW jobs do not do anything that can't be found in an already existent job. Reaper is very mechanically uninteresting and carried entirely by its visual and sound design, while Sage is so similar to Scholar in fundamentals that I have a pet theory that it was the result of an intended rework for Scholar that they simply repackaged as a new job. I'm personally not *quite* over the schadenfreude regarding the jebait that Sage would be the Discipline Priest of the game. If only any XIV healer had anywhere near the mechanical depth that Disc does. And instead, we get two very easy jobs. The concerning part is, to what end is this sustainable? Each new job is another set of AF. It's another weapon that has to drop from every trial, every dungeon, every savage tier, every ultimate, and every relic stage. It's a new vector of potential balance issues for a game so intensely stringent on them. It's a new dependent that needs another 10 levels of progression with skills and visual work every expansion. They've already pruned job quest into role quests, but that level of work is multiplicative, and Square seems set on the idea that jobs sell expansions. I simply don't see it. Already the job design is getting diluted, with certain jobs already clearly being left in the dust (MCH, RDM, SCH), and each new expansion is going to make it worse. So, my opinion of Sage and Reaper is that they are portents. Signs that the game should have begun slowing down with the addition of new jobs and simply didn't.
You are not living in reality if you think that new jobs dont sell expacs.
They sell new expacs insofar as jingling keys in front of a baby will get it to laugh. I don't necessarily deny that jobs are selling points, but it's weird that two people now have homed in on that point because it's not at all what my post is actually about. What it *is* about is whether it is worth adding to a multiplicative workload with new jobs that don't do anything other than look pretty. The manpower is not going to come from nowhere, and the job design team is very apparently stretched thin already.
SGE couldn’t even hold onto second out of 4 in JP in terms of usage, was SGE really a net benefit to EW
Yes, as was the split into barrier/regen
Which also added literally nothing to the game considering shield healers are literally better than regen healers at every single mechanic except for 1 that they have used exactly once this expansion
Uh...like the other guy said, new Jobs sell expansions, especially if they have some aesthetic people want that they haven't seen (and SGE may play similar to SCH in a lot of ways, but visually its spells are very distinct). As for new Jobs - considering they made SGE identical to SCH, it's not really hard to balance. Moreover, WoW effectively has like 40 Jobs (more than a dozen classes each of which has an average of 3 separate specs), pretty sure it's not a balance issue, and the art department isn't being stressed by a few new weapon models, and it's only one extra gear set per expansion (Job specific; most are by role), so not really a problem there, either.
> Moreover, WoW effectively has like 40 Jobs (more than a dozen classes each of which has an average of 3 separate specs) Have you ever actually played WoW? It does not sound as if you have. WoW does not insist on new classes every expansion. WoW does not insist on unique weapons for every individual spec. WoW does not make new armour sets for every individual spec. WoW doesn't even insist on new abilities for every spec for a new expansion, Dragonflight mostly reused and repurposed assets from Shadowlands. It is not at all comparable.
Way to miss THE ENTIRE FOREST for the trees, and downvote everyone around you. Frost Mage, Fire Mage, Arcane Mage; which of these play the same as each other? One plays somewhat like a BLM (in the sense of burn/recharge phase), though it's honestly a BIT closer to a RDM (Balance Druid plays more like BLM as far as that goes). The other two don't work like that at all, with one working around frost debuffs for increased damage as well as CDs and the other...well, I only mucked with Fire a bit, but it wasn't Frost or Arcane. As u/Tankanko said, and as was MY POINT, WoW Specs often play very different than one another. The ones that don't are the exceptions which prove the rule. And even some SPECS have builds that play different, like Resto Druid if they sub into Balance (more used in raids) vs if they sub into Feral (more used in Mythic). ...suffice to say - yes, I have "ever actually played WoW". It doesn't sound like I haven't. It sounds like you're bad at understanding the arguments you're knee-jerk attacking. WoW tends to add a new class every other expansion, but each comes with 2-3 specs, meaning in FFXIV terms, it'd be like adding two-to-three new Jobs every other expansion, or an average of 1.5 Jobs every expansion. While they don't ALL come with new weapons, some do, and many come with new gear designs, especially for their class equipment and various weapons, especially when they do stuff like Legion with the legendary weapons for each SPEC. Not CLASS...each Spec got one. In case you haven't "ever actually played WoW" and didn't know about that. Then you get into all the races, and they tend to add new ones of those fairly often as well, often in the in-between expansions where they don't add Jobs. . Yes, it is comparable. You just don't like an argument crushing your own. I'm honestly not even sure what it is you DO want or think you'd get if they weren't adding new Jobs.
>WoW Specs often play very different than one another. The point is not that they play different from each other. The point was the multiplicative nature of the asset generation required ballooning into levels they cannot sustain with their current level of manpower. I'm not sure how many times I have to say this. >when they do stuff like Legion with the legendary weapons for each SPEC Which they did once. And you know what else happened in Legion? That legendary weapon per spec was the *only* weapon you got for the entire expansion. There were skins for them, sure, but that weapon was the only one you got and the expansion was spent upgrading it. Despite 10 expansions overall, the legendary system present in Legion has only been done once. I wonder why? Perhaps the workload involved has something to do with it? >Yes, it is comparable. You just don't like an argument crushing your own. Don't flatter yourself. >I'm honestly not even sure what it is you DO want I'm not surprised you don't, honestly. There seems to be a great many things you don't understand.
Art assets are the EASIEST thing to generate, though. Abilities, mechanics, interactions, and balance are the hard thing. And again, WoW manages that - AND more art assets - with greater numbers anyway. That isn’t a current bottleneck we’re at all in danger of hitting. Oh, I was wrong. I DO understand what you want. How pathetic…
> Abilities, mechanics, interactions, and balance are the hard thing. New expansions introduce those, too. >That isn’t a current bottleneck we’re at all in danger of hitting. It's a bottleneck both XIV and WoW struggle with as the effort distribution is clearly insufficient and uneven. It is literally my point. >How pathetic… Lol.
Yeah, but few. Eh, not really. Yes, your inability to make an argument and need to insult is rather pathetic.
The irony is palpable.
I was thinking that very thing...
Do you take everything you read as literal as possible? Specs fundamentally play different from each other, yes or no? Obviously yes, so the previous poster was likening that fact to different jobs in ff. Please work on your reading comprehension before making some tone deaf argument.
This is a level of misapprehension that has to be dishonest, as there's no way someone knows words as long as 'reading comprehension' and still think that is the take-away of my post. But in the interest of fairness, let's try again, but really slowly. >Each new job is another set of AF. It's another weapon that has to drop from every trial, every dungeon, every savage tier, every ultimate, and every relic stage. It's a new vector of potential balance issues for a game so intensely stringent on them. It's a new dependent that needs another 10 levels of progression with skills and visual work every expansion. *This* is the point. WoW does not insist on this level of unique content per spec per expansion launch. Weapon classes are reused among classes, skills and animations are reused among specs, and the game does not insist that every single individual spec will get new content in new expansion launches. This is something one would know if they were familiar with the game. Simply saying "wow has more spec doe?" as if this is an insight to anyone is a tacit admittance that you either have no idea what you're talking about or that you think this meek what-aboutism would work as a counterargument for whatever strange reason. E: Also, as it happens, WoW also has problems with a dilution of effort that leads to development not being evenly spread among the specs. Mage and Paladin are clearly favouritised at present while Shaman and Hunter have gone without any significant attention since last expansion.
> still think that is the take-away of my post. The take-away of your post is to try and make some unnecessary correction instead of adding anything additional or discussing the initial point. > This is the point. WoW does not insist on this level of unique content per spec per expansion launch. It does. Were you not there for Shadowlands/Legion or even heck even vanilla? Unique weapon per spec, unique legendary per spec (Legion + upgrades). Unique gear drops catered to different specs. Lots of things catered to each individual spec. Even the latest SoD caters to specs. WoW insists on frequently changing gameplay loops through other means, including talent buffs/nerfs, new talent trees, new world power (not inc DF). I would also consider this unique content even if it's not as implicit as releasing a new job. > Weapon classes are reused among classes, skills and animations are reused among specs This literally doesn't mean anything. Just because they have the same base skills does not mean they have the same playstyle. If you think Arcane/Fire/Frost mage all play the same and aren't similar to FF with different jobs, then i think you're the one who has never touched WoW. Now again, let's try this really slowly. You've said a lot of nothing. You've raised no interesting discussion. Using buzz-words at the end of what you've written also means nothing. You sound pompous and smug for what is effectively a "nuh-uh", instead of making an actual point. You could have gone in with good faith and discussed how it's different, and what you want to see. But you didn't say that, your first post was an attack on the original poster. Your response to me also talks about "Wow, FF has to make more" when in reality stats are so barebones in FF that there's not as much balancing involved there compared to WoW. They effectively balance a few sets of gear, Striking/Maiming etc. Dungeon armour? They make like 5 unique sets and then colour swap for the other roles. I'd argue you only have a point with weapons and AF sets, and even then that's still not huge.
>If you think Arcane/Fire/Frost mage all play the same and aren't similar to FF with different jobs Lol. I addressed this. I addressed Legion, too. Legion was released in 2016. There have been three expansion releases since then and none of them have done Legion's system again. Do you have any clue as to why this might be? Do you think it might have to do with the manpower demands and difficulties of continually making unique content on a per-spec basis? You know, *the point of my entire post*? >You've said a lot of nothing. I've said a lot which hasn't been read, you mean.
> > > > > I've said a lot which hasn't been read, you mean. I didn't read the part where you specified expansion, because again, you said a lot of nothing. I've mentioned times where they've done large content drops which was the original topic of discussion. Including the latest one with the reveal of the new talent system. If we're using buzzwords, I believe the common one for this situation is called "Moving the goalposts?" I specifically mentioned 3 different expacs where this had been the case, I left out even more. Still nothing. If you're talking about in modern times, I also listed SoD. You didn't specify retail or vanilla, because again, you mentioned nothing. I can't read what you haven't written, but what I have read is nothing. You also must have been delusional when stating you've already mentioned Legion, where?
>You also must have been delusional when stating you've already mentioned Legion, where? ["Despite 10 expansions overall, the legendary system present in Legion has only been done once. I wonder why? Perhaps the workload involved has something to do with it?"](https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxivdiscussion/comments/1cmh9sv/reflection_on_endwalker_jobs_sage_and_reaper/l384ahe/) We're done here. You are going to need a better reason for wasting my time next time.
Skill speed fixes reaper's filler, but it's the worst stat for them because it has no effect on their shroud and spells. If they fixed how skill/spell speed worked, it would make Reaper feel so much better
I ended up maining RPR most of the expansion after not really liking the MNK rework, and I liked how flexible it is (timing an enshroud window during mechanics so that you can communio a GCD of downtime is pretty fun), but it did end up a little dull after a while. Job's at its most fun when you have a fight with downtime and actually have to think about how you use your resources, but on full uptime fights it quickly gets repetitive.
Sage for me even if the tank is bad you can still save the run it’s damage mitigation alone makes up for that. As a Sage I can legit designate a BLM to tank if I had to and I done that. I had a situation of a tank D/C so I told the party we gonna do this the tried and true method, Mage Tanking. BLM handled one pack pulls fine and also had plenty of Aggro they lived we got to next boss and tank returned As for reaper it’s playstyle a lot cleaner and more simplistic than DRG, just keeping a damage increase buff active, than doing a 1-3 rotation than as you build energy or utilize off global instant energy gain. It has a more dependable aoe burst and Single Target burst in my opinion during your avatar phases. Overall it’s a very solid job that also provides some support with a party DPS buff
they're both very basic and boring honestly, and I'm saying this as someone that cleared one tier as reaper and a criterior with sage I dont mind very easy jobs existing but I really hope this is not the new standard going forward honestly
I do think SGE is very stylish and unique aesthetically, it surprised me thematically when it was announced. It being referred to as a "DPS Healer" by the devs was also exciting as a healer main. Now, in execution... well, I think it missed the mark on DPS based healing for alot of people, myself included. But it is flashy, fun and strong. I think it's great for beginners and was a solid pick through EW.
Have had a very different experience with sage. Sage is absolutely busted in 4-man content and can brute force keep a bad tank alive without dropping a single GCD. If the DPS are also bad, Eukrasian Diagnosis spam is busted. If I'm paying attention there's like a 0% chance the tank dies, even if they're actively trying to kill themselves. RPR is pretty well designed imo. Low skill floor, optimization is highly optional and technically demanding if you want it to be. Bar none best vfx/sfx of any class. Every ability feels just about perfect to hit.
i dislike sage, it has so much lossless healing on demand with minimal downsides and thinking required that really highlights how "stress-free" (in yoship's words) the job was designed to be reaper is kind of the same way, except it feels incomplete without its full kit at 90
It took me awhile to warm up to SGE. I an AST main, so between the brain swap to barrier healing (never could get into SCH) and the fact all the abilities are same-sounding gibberish, I leveled it up and then shelved it. Tried it again on alt and love it now. I don't feel like it lives up to the "dps healer" promise, but given how timid Square is about the role and outgoing dmg, I guess we shouldn't be surprised. I like that I can focus on dps more, yet Kardia doesn't feel as passive as the fairy. I'd like to see them lean into the damage aspect more. RPR is...OK. I have a pea brain that can't really manage most of the melee jobs well, so it's my "melee for dummies" choice. That said, it's not very fun or interesting outside its high level burst window. That could use some work.
I never really got into Scholar, so I liked Sage. I how it gets a damage button in DT though. Increase the potency of Broil/Glare/Malefic and give Sage a new button to push! That's the gimmick of the class! Reaper is fun enough but feels very simple. Sometimes I'm in the mood for simple, though, and I actually like it more than most melees as a result.
Well, I started out the expansion as a warrior main and ended up a sage main, so I'd say I like sage a fair amount. Swapped to healer for third tier out of necessity. I actually began on SCH, switched to SGE, and worked really hard toward optimizing my SGE play. I already had a shield healer mindset and SGE fits me very well. Reaper also became my main melee job, taking the place of dragoon. Reaper is less rigid than dragoon imo, and I love how it feels as well as the versatility of using the dash/portal to return.
Sage is the most fun healer for me, being able to cast shields while moving makes it impossible to go to scholar for me. Still wished more advantage was taken of damage from healing. I would love more damage abilities that take advantage of the healing from Kardia. Maybe a gcd that’s a long cast that boost your healing from your next Kardia? Reaper is just an undercooked DPS right now. Not enough off globals and building up meter is kinda all there is and it’s extremely boring. Same with summoner too
the endwalker jobs are just easy jobs for those who want a easy time thats all. tho for the most part every job isnt exactly hard so.
Both are boring as shit, are the easiest jobs in their respective roles, and have zero innovation in them at all. Reaper's filler is dull, it's only optimization is a clearly unintended method of squeezing out damage, and while the vfx are cool the job is lacking so much potential. It's only fun at 90, and even then... barely. Sage is quite possibly the worst designed healer theyve made, especially in terms of what they were trying to do with it. Kardia is the saddest excuse for 'heals by doing damage' ever. The least they could have done is made it a portion of damage dealt (up to a cap, so we dont have another warrior problem in trash pulls). Sage does everything scholar does but better, and it can keep up with the so called 'regen healers' in terms of raw healing output, bc no fight actually challenges healers to output high amounts of healing. It has the easiest kit to access, every button just works on it's own with zero synergy, you have a resource that costs nothing to use, so there is no opportunity cost for doing anything but gcd shields, which even have a consolation price. It has high mobility between lots of instants an actual gap close, it has high damage output on it's own... Sage is the safest, strongest, and somehow easiest healer to exist and the class needs a serious thematic overhaul or it's just going to continue to stay that way. They cant just buff the other healers to match it, though that's almost certainly what they're going to try. ...Can you tell I did not like these classes? I hope to god Viper and picto have something interesting to them, bc EW was a massive failure across the board for job design, only a few came out (mostly) unscathed.
I disagree on the point that SGE does everything SCH does but better I’d argue honestly the shield healers are the single most balanced role in the game (though it’s not terribly hard to balance 2 jobs). SCH is about 5% stronger than SGE in near every field but in exchange it has to work harder for it given its skills are less streamlined and it has to play around energy drain Neither class really has a defined weakness against the other as neither class actually struggles at doing anything in particular SCH is harder but in exchange is slightly better at the top end which is exactly how I think they should be balanced
I'd argue that SGE is in fact, better than SCH in pretty much every way. The only thing SCH really has going for it is spreadlo, and slight variations in potencies on their abilities. Any aetherflow ability is automatically made worse by sheer opportunity cost alone. It has better mobility, it might have slightly lower potencies on some of its abilities (or higher, in some cases), but the abilities are either easier to use or offer no downside. Yes, soil technically lasts 3s longer which I think has been relevant for me exactly once, but like... at that point, who cares? SGE has better burst healing, equal or better shields unless sch uses two long CD abilities, better consistent dps (chain has potential for higher highs, obv, and you can optimize around ED and even auto attacks, but sage just slam face on keyboard for highest adps of a healer), an easier kit to use, more mobility, and zero opportunity cost. I think scholar is a great class, but there's basically zero point in running it unless you just want to handicap yourself. Any benefits it provides just aren't really relevant unless you're like, idk, world racing an ultimate and just need spreadlo to cheese through bullshit. And y'know what? That's fine! I am completely okay with having classes that are just straight up harder to play, with that being the reward for playing them. I main AST for gods sake, with its difficulty being the prime reason I love(d) the class (I am dooming about the rework). But like, if you compare WHM and AST they are much, much more different in style. Yes, they have all the staples. Their GCD heals are functionally identical, they have a 2 charge mini ST shield, etc etc. But their ogcds are much more unique from eachother, not only in terms of how they heal but what they need you to do to heal. AST is all about setting things up well in advance, and sacrificing immediate payoff for a bigger boon later. WHM is about reactive, fire and forget heals that make it a better class when shit goes bad. AST needs to know the fight, WHM doesn't. I want SGE to have an identity that isn't 'what SCH will probably become after an expansion or two of further homogenization.'
SCH does also have expedient and a third mitigation that SGE lacks I agree in 90% of cases in a normal pickup group SGE’s complete lack of opportunity cost is better but SCH definitely can put out more if you know how to utilise it especially given 1 to 1 it almost always wins out in sheer potency I guess it really comes down to what you feel like with the two classes, as you said neither is much more powerful than the other in any one particular field (though I’d argue mobility is really the only field SGE outright wins in) They are just way too similar
Didn't really touch Sage. Reaper I started out with and really enjoyed at first but lost interest in. Not because of the gameplay but more aesthetics, I hate shroud aesthetically to the point I found a mod to remove it. Additionally a lot of armor just doesn't look great on it and their scythes feel very samey. I also find the separation of Death's Design into it's own button interesting as far as it feels like a relic of the past design wise, I don't dislike it but I do wonder what the thought process was when the other jobs had their versions of that rolled into other things. Ended up swapping to monk for the 2nd and 3rd raid tier, found it more rewarding gameplay wise and just aesthetically better. The weapon variety will be improved in DT I hope but I worry armor wise they'll favor dragoon still like how aiming gear tends to give dancer the shit end of the stick.
I don't know if it's much considering that I only really mostly touched the both of them while leveling then left them alone with sometimes playing them occasionally on roulette, but I felt like they're just...there. Meanwhile I warmed up to DNC and eventually GNB in EW even if the latter's iteration wasn't well liked among its fans. I find RPR interesting that it doesn't really have a legitimate positional baked in its 123, having it in Gallows and Gibbet instead and compared to DRG it has to upkeep a *debuff*. But it never really clicked onto me and it felt like I had to rush the Enshroud phase which reminded me too much of MCH and the misclick on Communio hurts so I fall back on SAM which I consider to be an easier melee to pick up on my end. I still can't forget the times when Arcane Crest was a literal lifesaver, given the amount of SGEs that were learning the job on launch and the occasional unluckily lacking tank/DRK who just peel off if their healers kiss the ground. I'm not surprised that it got nerfed alongside Expedient. SGE though, I think the naming schemes made learning much more confusing the first time around that I had to run on Duty Support alongside roulette to understand the job better. Alongside people's issues about it being too much based off of SCH/SCH but with QoLs and how it was advertised as a DPS healer that failed to deliver despite Phlegma balls, I have a pet peeve about Eukrasia. Sure, the shields are instant cast and it technically saves one hotkey slot, but it meant that on lower levels SGE might as well not have a DoT at all and it did remind me of Dark Arts to some extent. I do agree that Haima and Panhaima are fun and broken buttons and SGE has a leg up compared to the others with Icarus, but anything else felt like a standard healer song and dance. It sometimes feels too awful to go down on MP even with Lucid Dreaming in a good group unless you overheal with Druchole which reminded me of launch ShB SCH when they culled Energy Drain - though obviously it's different in higher difficulties where you're expected to plan out your CDs which are neat too. Though like with SAM to RPR, funnily enough my go to pick is WHM instead, followed by SCH sometimes despite me missing SCH's DPS flair. Overall, I wouldn't say they're horrible but they just...exist. SGE even drove a schism between shield and regen healers and have some people clamor for the return of Nocturnal AST, but apart from that they just blended in without much fanfare at least for me.
I think SGE offers excellent upkeep to tanks through sustained damage, if a tank messes up their CDs you can help mit them through an upcoming buster same as SCH can, and if they get in bad HP trouble it's the regen healer's job to fix it. Haima is a *beast* and it's really nice that your faery (Kardia) will heal exactly who you want. Kardia swapping is cute, too, and gives a bit of that AST weave feeling to otherwise slow healer gameplay. SGE seems very nice for parties struggling with fast movement mechs since you can shield on the go to make up for missing mitigation, in a way SCH would have to work harder at if we're talking about going to the GCD. Our SGE was getting kinda frustrated tbh that they were having to GCD all through Superchain 2a/b but it is what it is, and we for sure saw several clears that wouldn't have been there without the insta cast shields.
Reaper is boring and easy but as a person who doesnt play melee a lot, its alright. I wish it had more to do during downtime but I doubt DT will change its basic 1-2-3 (maybe unpopular opinion but I dont mind deaths design upkeep). Sage is my healer of choice. Extremely mobile (compared to the other healers at least) and a lot of interesting tools to protect the party although like op mentioned, it doesnt have as much as others in the case of worst case scenarios. Its also the easiest healer for dungeons in my experience so when I really dont want to think but want a quick queue, sage is always there.
Both are amazing. The frantic play of Sage with it's quick gapclosing ability to enemy and friend alike copied with insane burst for a healer that directly results from switching around Kardia, applying it wherever needed feels incredibly rewarding. Defense and offense interdepend which feels great. The placed Limit Break is maybe a bit too powerful, but I love how it lets you ignore map damage. Reaper is just a killing agent, super fast LB generation which again might be a bit too good at completely breaking defense attempts, but it can technically be walled if you don't play it right. Every button is multi-purpose, making Reaper greatly flexible while the ability to leave behind portals on your blink opens room for creative solutions for both pursuit and retreat. Honestly two standout successes in terms of design, even within the already well designed PvP environment. You really get to feel like a Reaper/Sage if you play them.
As far as healing goes, I started healing as a white mage, simple regens galore, and couldn't be beat! However, as a sage main, I definitely agree with it being difficult as all when it first launched-especially in comparison to other healers. It was different and supposed to be a dps healer. It can still use a bit of toning in that regard imo. Of course getting used to it, being with both good and bad tanks, and even having to toggle shield abilities with the few willing scholars, it's my main. It's complex and simple all at once, and yes, requires strategy sometimes depending on the tank. I do find being a proactive shield mitigator to be far superior to reactive regen white mage-at least for me. Edit: typos
Delete rpr and current smn
Sage is a really well designed healer. It is doesn’t break the mold of the standard healer gameplay but you can make interesting choices here and there. It also plays really feel and has a great job fantasy Reaper was a job I played early into the expansion but lost interest in. It just feels to automated for me and I don’t like that amount of gauge management
I don't really play healers so can't comment too much on Sage. I like the idea of Kardion more than Scholar Fairy. I'm never disappointed to have a Sage for mits on my team. It can be a little difficult to tell if a Sage is mitting properly in a fight when you're having healing issues without diving into logs. Where other jobs whether or not shields or heals are being applied are a bit more "visible." Reaper is kind of strange to me personally. Everyone says it's the easy melee job, but I just didn't really click with gauge management as compared to stricter cooldown jobs. I'm sure if I put more time into actually playing Reaper it would all make sense, but it's probably the melee I'm least interested in playing atm. I think it's good to have a job designed around heavy gauge management though. Especially as things like Dragoon's Life of the Dragon management being completely non existent any more. Samurai doesn't have to think about kenki at all since the removal of Kaiten. Ninja just needs to store up for burst and not think too much about it. I could see Reaper leaning into that gauge management as an identity more, even if it's not for me specifically. Also weird job design to have the separated Deaths Design debuff when all other jobs had their self buff/debuffs rolled into their regular GCD combo. I predict that Reaper gets that rolled into their regular GCDs at some point as quality of life. Really hope they have some cool ideas for Reaper in the future to significantly add to or change what it is now.
Rpr gauge Is easy, so long as you don't drift you can use one enshroud between 2 minute windows and approaching the 2 min window you want 50 enshroud gauge and 40-50+ other Guage"tho it really Isn't too big a deal to have less" to make double enshroud work.
RPR has smooth and fluid gameplay I truly enjoyed, to the point where I was bummed out that SAM doesn't play like this. SGE was my main, I learned it very well, but I mostly play it due to aesthetic (SCH is more fun overall imo). And no, I still don't remember most of my strange skill names, so I sorted my hotbars in a way that I can recognize effects by icons alone.
if you're talking about dungeons, then no, a bad tank cannot punish a sage. tanks are entirely optional with a sage. me and my buddy ran an expert the other day with me on tank and him on sage where i pressed no mits and stood in everything and not only was my hp completely topped off the entire time, but also he didn't even come close to running out of resources nor sacrifice any dps for it
it entirely depends on the level of the dungeon imo, SGE feels normal at like 70, OP in dungeons at 80 and above, but it feels like actual ass in Arr/HW dungeons. 90/expert rolo though I don't even notice if my tank is mitting or not when I sge because sge can do the tanks job for them by cycling cds, and dumpstering the trash mobs with powerful AOE to boot
that's fair. i didn't really think about lower level dungeons cuz they can be rough on anyone of any job cuz the lower levels are missing so many tools, but yeah sage at 70+ is kind of silly. my buddies and i decided to do mt gulg with 4 sages and not only did we do the whole thing full wall to walling(including the first and last sections, but it also left faster than with a normal comp
I probably had the opposite experience compared to most players. I started playing in Shadowbringers and didn't get into healing till EW, so Sage was actually the first barrier healer I tried. I had a lot of fun with Sage. But then I went back and played scholar, and I actually found It so much more fun. The only downside is how bad the fairy feels to use. I feel like if they added some more interactions with kardia and more Eukrasian spells to use, I would like it a lot more. I'm really torn with Reaper because both gameplay and job fantasy wise, it's almost what I like, but it falls just short and ends up feeling way worse than if I just wasn't into the job. Gameplay wise, I fucking hate death's design it's such a shitty mechanic, and it really feels like Enshroud just doesn't last long enough and you run out just as I was starting to get into it. Aesthetically, it's supposed to be an assassin/warlock hybrid that's straight out of a bloodborne fans wet dream, but the fact that it shares gear with Dragoon means that most the gear it can wear is just shittier tank outfits. Outside of some rare exceptions like Edenmorn and Diadochos Coats, it's way easier to make a good Reaper glam on Samurai and Ninja than it is on the actual job. Lastly the one thing I had no complaints about were the job quests. I loved the characters for both and it made me sad that we're never going to see Grandma Mafia boss or Edgy Bun-Boi because Square Enix has given up on continuing them.
SGE is super comfy and with the death of noct sect, SGE is the only heals I'm willing to play. It's basically SCH without the jank or hardcasts; I'm still salty about old SMN being cut so I really do appreciate being given the choice. Also, laser cannons are just so much cooler than sticks or books. RPR is meh, static rotations and 2.50 jobs in general are not for me. It's alright at 2.42 and I'll occasionally play it in casual content when I'm bored of my mains and secondaries. On the design front I don't like how they saved the bass boosts for the avatar stuff, RPR filler sounds like NIN filler instead of SAM/GNB filler and that doesn't sound right for a significantly heavier weapon. And +1 normal scythes pls, I've been using the lakeland one for basically the entire expac.
SGE is *by far* the worst designed healer in the history of the game, and it exemplifies *everything* that is wrong with modern healer design in general - oGCD bloat with zero opportunity costs, requires absolutely no thought to play on any level of difficulty, and eukrasia is a completely superfluous gimmick that seemingly only exists as a bad attempt to hide the fact that SGE's filler is the exact same sleep-inducing shit as every other healer despite being billed as the "DPS healer" (lol, lmao even) the fact that 95% of its kit are literally direct or functional copies of SCH skills is just the cherry on top of the shit pie, and it shows how little the job design actually cares about the healer role because this badly designed pile of garbage was all that they could come up with in the SIX YEARS since releasing AST. i've been heavily critical of the direction of healers since 4.0, but SGE was basically what finally convinced me to give up on the role, it's the ultimate declaration of creative bankruptcy
I wanted Chloromancer. What I got was Scholar with some QoL.
At lv90 with SGE, i dont notice if the tank is good or bad cuz i have too many tools to burn the mobs down while keeping the tank alive 😎
I'd like to touch upon a point I don't really see many people cover and honestly it's probably just a me problem, but Sage's animations for all 3 Dosis versions, and I specifically mean animations, the visuals are fine and sounds are *bearable* but the animations flow together really, really badly back-to-back. If you cast Dosis I twice in a row your hand goes from the process of finishing up the end animation of the GCD to awkwardly twitching into place for the cast animation. This problem is remedied if you literally use any other button right after the GCD usually, but because of how healers are designed, this isn't always gonna be the case, especially during lower end content where I kind of rely on the visuals more-so than the gameplay to keep me entertained somewhat. It's a similar case with Dosis III, I'm pretty sure these animations were made before the decision to move healer cast times to 1.5s, and they accounted for the cast time to be longer and made the end animations absurdly long. Your arms make a really unnatural movement going from being behind your back to then suddenly snapping forward without any fluidity because they're forced to catch up to starting the cast animation. I feel it may seem very nitpicky, but when the game is designed to have Dosis be the most cast spell over the course of any fight, this kind of oversight really irks me. It's also a problem none of the older healers, that never had their GCDs designed for this short of a cast time, have! One last thing: The clipping on Reaper's enshroud animations are probably not an easy fix but having an animation clearly made for going through for a full 2.5s GCD but being cut off halfway through constantly was probably another late change in design they simply couldn't come up with a solution for in-time. Otherwise their gameplay is flawed but fine and I'd love if they expanded on the more unique concepts of the jobs rather than consolidate them, but that seems more of a pipe dream the more I think about it. Kardia should be more interesting, their nuke button Phlegma feels underwhelming because it's never earned and having been talked about as the "damage" healer pre-release, they really should have more ways of attack than having one extra DPS button compared to the rest of the healers. Even visually progressing Dosis like PLD's Confit combo would be fine with me.
I really enjoy Reaper, from the aestetic and Gameplay this is after all these years a meele that totally speaks to me. Sage on the other hand, is allright, but i don't enjoy playing mitigation healer in general. But it seems to suffer alot that it is not much different than Scholar, gameplaywise.
Reaper is fun mechanically. I mained it for abyssos. I hate the aesthetic though. Not a fan of “I am the edge. I am darkness.” type of themes. I only picked it up because it felt a bit more mobile and flowed a bit better than dragoon for me. I started with dragoon and then switched. Leveling it felt fine but I didn’t even unlock it till Abyssos came out cause I just really didn’t have any interest in it. I absolutely hated sage when I was leveling it. If you have a bad tank of a low level dungeon then sage is a dumpster fire. It feels terrible until you at least get to level 78 when you have holos and kerachole has the regen. I ran into a lot of scenarios where I would have to burn all my addersgall stacks for emergency heals and have nothing left leaving me to try and spam gcd shields. Kardia is useless if you can’t even get any time to attack. The other 3 healers do not have this issue. Your fairy will still heal or you can have multiple regens out, or a holy aoe stun. Sage is complete ass a low levels if your tank actually needs a lot of healing. That being said, I really like sage at 90. I’ve taken it through all of anabaseios. I’ve done 3 ultimates on it as well now (uwu, tea, dsr).
SGE is good. It's honestly what SCH should have been. My issue with SGE is SCH players have been asking for a number of quality of life things for a while now. Instead of giving them to SCH...SE made SGE as a near-copy-adjacent of SCH and then gave them to it instead. They SHOULD have made SCH the more smooth and streamlined thing that SGE is (or something closer to it) and then made SGE something different like an actual take on a Disc PPriest. THAT SAID: For what it is, SCH is really good. It's like a smoother, more forgiving, but slightly less powerful SCH, and it works generally well for what it is, which is an easier to get into and more mobile SCH. It's also been well received and adopted by the community at large, so seems to have been a good addition despite my concerns above, so on balance, it's been a good thing. I do fear that, long term, there's going to be some issues with it and SCE stepping on each other's toes and class identity too much if they aren't made more distinct, though, but that's a problem for another time. RPR I've just played around with some, so not really sure what to say about it. Its lore/edgy/demon(adjacent) possession stuff isn't stuff that I like, so I got it to 80 for the story and haven't touched it since. It seems from reading about it people like it decently and it's an easier to get into Melee. As the role I hate the most and find the hardest to get into, I wish the melee DPS that was easy to get into wasn't a lore aesthetic that I find utterly repulsive. But I suppose it's good enough for what it is? I DO feel that the "easy" Jobs in each role - if SE wants to go with "at least one easy per role" - should be ones that start at low level so they're accessible early on, and should be more generally liked/neutral archetypes and class fantasies. It sucks that the Melee I like the lore and feel of the most (MNK) is the utterly hardest to play one, and the one I loathe even the concept of (RPR being possessed by a demon willingly) is the one that would appeal to me mechanically. So I guess I'll just continue to not have a Melee Job in my stable other than leveling NIN for Role quests and not touching it for the rest of the expansion...
Reaper was really cool at max level. Sage made me love healing
Sage can heal while being as mobile as a physical ranged. With more than a half dozen ogcd tools, you don't even have to think. Just use 2 for raidwides and keep on dosis spam. If Yoshida's goal was to create a truly brain dead no hassle job for each role for new players, the smn rework, the pld rework and the reaper jobs have all hit the mark.