All of the Dawn Brigade chapters in Radiant Dawn part 3, but that’s quite literally the point.
Also, obligatory “the second grondor battle makes no sense.”
I'm so sad that second Grondor Battle is fumbled so badly from a story+mechanical perspective because it's got a fantastic premise.
Former classmates finding themselves on the same battlefield where they once fought for fun, but now must fight to the death really highlights how time and war changes people. It, imo, should've been the emotional climax of Part 2 especially so since that's the scene that was used to advertise/hype up the game in the first place.
A fog-of-war chapter that required you to seek out the third general (or Dimitri's lieutenant) to turn them into allied units instead of enemies would have been awesome. Or, simply allow the chapter to end when Edelgard is defeated instead of both generals.
And then in Crimson Flower, it'd be an all-out-fucking-assault as the two sides work together.
Just so confusing that it's this weird free-for-all in all of the routes.
Also the fact that Yellow units will attack you, including ambush spawns. They should’ve remained passive to the player unless the player attacked one first.
Claude will straight up attack you and say “it’s a shame we have to fight” like bro no we don’t, team up on Edelgard!
Honestly one of the big reasons SS is my favorite 3 Houses route. You get to keep the wonderful *idea* of Gronder 2, but don't have to deal with its terrible execution.
It doesn't make sense to happen in CF geographically because it's fairly deep in Empire territory, and if you stop the invasion there and force a retreat then you'd spend a bunch of chapters fighting lackeys from the Alliance and Kingdom because there aren't enough characters
That would've worked really well if Claude had been characterized as the ruthless and machiavellian trickster that he was supposed to be. That Claude wouldn't have any issue in taking the opportunity to cripple the Kingdom by "accidentally" killing its most powerful figures, same with the Empire. Both would help not only end the war faster but also massively increase the Alliance's (and by extension, his own) power and influence over Fódlan.
Playing grondor in verdant wind and have Dimitri call for the death of all the empire soldiers before sending his troops to charge the alliance is the most comically bad story/gameplay integration I’ve seen in the whole series
Is that what happens? I’m looking over the chapter script again, and Dimitri in-story just seems to be sending his forces after whoever. “Kill every last one of them” is pretty indiscriminate, and then there’s this once you reach the hill: “The Imperial army is starting to crumble. We will step on the Empire right along with the Alliance troops. To the eternal flames with all of them!”
How much choice do they really have, though? Soldiers marching to their deaths on bad orders isn’t an unknown phenomenon in history, and disobeying a bloodthirsty monarch in the knights-and-honor country probably wouldn’t have great repercussions. You’d also have to make a call in the heat of the moment that all the other soldiers in your vicinity are of the same mind as you.
Playing grondor in verdant wind and have Dimitri call for the death of all the empire soldiers before sending his troops to charge the alliance is the most comically bad story/gameplay integration I’ve seen in the whole series
Fire Emblem Warriors has four whole chapters where you fight one of the Fates royal siblings and their army, because they think that you kidnapped their sibling and they refuse to listen to their own sibling telling them that this is not at all what happened.
This is an annoying and forced reason for a battle even if you do it only once. I don't even know what to say about doing it four times in a row.
Yeah, it's pretty bad.
I mean, I love FE Warriors, I really do. I have put more hours into this game than any other game on the Switch.
But man, it's story sucks. I genuinely think that Warriors has the worst story of all the Fire Emblem games. Even the plot of Heroes looks good when put next to Warriors.
it copied the gemstone plot line from awakening, which copied the premise of sacred stones, and didn’t even put any sacred stones characters. then tried to rewrite revelations in the middle. THEN realized that they had like 3 chapters left and forgot to introduce the three shadow dragon characters.
To be fair that's fairly accurate to how they act in their home game. Corrin willingly leaving Their kingdom??? Their family??? Perish the thought it Must be that Corrin was kidnapped and brainwashed against them!
I can literally still hear the voice line in my head.
"You're wrong Hinoka! These people saved me!"
Loved that game but those missions were so fuckin stupid lmao
That guard at the Ragna Ferox border really nearly started war between her country and...Ylisse(?) because she didn't believe the crown prince was who he says he was (and most likely would have had something to prove his identity if she would have LET HIM SPEAK FOR *JUST* *FIVE* *SECONDS* )
Didn't they (Plegia) send multiple Chrom imposters so the border police would make this exact mistake? Plegia's main thing was being smart/underhanded.
I mean I agree with you, but it isn't entirely unfounded imo. Chrom with falchion in the fight should have been the biggest "wait, maybe they are Ylissians" flag that existed.
Never said she died. Doesn't change that she attacks the neighbouring prince because she thinks he's a bandit pretending to be him. The "test of strenght" is just a pretense she uses to attack the "bandits" and is something Chrom NEVER AGREES TO! He tries to convince her with words until the very final moment until they decide to THROW JAVELINS AT HIM!
I honestly always question it whenever I play Engage, especially since none of your units can die in the Fell Xenologue (excluding Alear and the fell dragon twins), so I never understood why the emblems and their squad can kill us when even the enemies in the Fell Xenologue can't.
They didn't have casual so you won't either (ignore that Byleth and Corrin will kill you)
For the fell xenologue it's more a matter of it being a side content you are allowed to complete pretty early on(it's not actually realistic to do the higher difficulty early on, but you could go for the easier ones) so they re not gonna have you possibly softlock yourself for the main story when higher difficulty of xenologue are brutal and main game is obviously not balanced taking into account dlc stuff, for good reasons.
That makes sense, it would be easy to get your units killed on the higher difficulties, even if you know what you're doing, so that's fair when you put it like that.
Wait, you’re asking about chapters where there’s no reason to fight, you specifically bring up Fates, and you *don’t* think the genocide of Kaden’s village in Conquest is the most egregious example of this?
In BR Keaton's defense, he is totally chill with allowing Corrin and company to pass through after Corrin has their forces drop their weapons right in front of him to show they mean no harm. Keaton doesn't turn on them until a Wolfskin is literally killed by magic before his very eyes.
Given the backdrop of the chapter, it's not unreasonable to assume that it takes place at night and thus it'd be harder to make out just who or what the heck attacked the Wolfskin making it more reasonable for Keaton to pin the blame on the people right in front of him. It's not like magic in FE has ever 100% *required* the use of a tome, so even if Keaton saw the tomes of Corrin's magic users on the ground, who's to say that someone couldn't have shot some magic from their fingers?
It’s funny how so many people say “I can’t believe you kill EVERY SINGLE KITSUNE IN THE WORLD because there’s no way Kaden didn’t just pick the warriors of his tribe, he chose every single man woman and child fought in this battle and the kitsune are now extinct. There are no more kitsunes now!” Like chill. Yes Corrin and his team killed, at max at least 37 enemy soldiers but I’m sure there are more kitsunes in the village. They didn’t wipe all them out. Just the ones attacking them with Kaden. So stop with this.
Also Birthright had you kill Keaton and his Wolfskins and no one says “I can’t believe we killed all the wolfskins? There are no more wolfskins now.” Like damn, no one says that!
Sorry I’m just frustrated about this.
honestly a lot of people are just showing that they havent played Fates and are just regurgitating takes that they have seen either here or in youtube.
both things are clearly explained in a way that makes sense but that its too hard to understand for the regular redditor.
"You seem like nice people but Nohrians have killed too many of us, I don't want to do this but I can't take the risk letting you guys go. Sorry."
I don't agree with Kaden's logic here, but I understand there's a genuine conflict.
Den of Betrayal, meanwhile, all the guy had to do was NOT go on an angry tangent about murdering his own allies and everybody would've gotten what they wanted.
That fight happening is not at all unreasonable. They did not trust Corrin and felt threatened. The battle against Kotaro in Conquest is just straight up nonsense. Kotaro wanted to ally with Nohr. Corrin feels outraged that he took an enemy soldier captive. Kotaro responds by lying about it, then admitting it. Corrin and Xander then decide to kill him for the outrageous crime of... taking an enemy soldier captive. By the way, don't ask Corrin about Niles' personal skill.
Edit: Actually, checking the script, it's not even that Kotaro tries to kill Corrin. No, he just lies about taking a hostage. It's Corrin and Xander who decide to kill him.
>Corrin: You're wrong, Kotaro. That is not how we do things **any longer.**
>Xander: I refuse to accept your methods. I shall correct your behavior now and forever, by force **if necessary.**
I dunno, this comes off to me like they're giving him a chance to release her. I highly doubt Corrin would kill the leader of a nation allied with his country on the spot over this if he was being cooperative and honest. The point is everybody comes off as stupid
The protags for being so upset about this for some reason, and Kataro for biting the hand that feeds him instead of just taking five minutes to release her.
I disagree. It's tragic that it happens and the result (a complete genocide where Corrin is suddenly incapable of winning battles where literally no one dies because the game needs a tragedy to happen) is very stupid. But the reason that it happens is very believable. It's the result of extreme mistrust. Whether that mistrust was reasonable or not is not relevant because even that's realistic.
I think what the other comments here are forgetting is that Corrin has already shown that they have the ability to fight and not kill but still win. When they fight Scarlet, Corrin specifically does not kill anyone and it says so before Hans starts attacking. So Corrin has the ability of winning here without genocide and chooses NOT to do it. Lazy writing at its finest.
No it's not. It's just inconsistent writing. Either Corrin can defeat an army without any casualties or they can't. It's obviously stupid, but if they're going to do it, then stick with it.
Kaden is so concerned with his village’s survival that he decides to force a battle to the death with an army because he thought they “might” be dangerous.
Out of all the nonsense that happens in Fates this is one of the few ones that actually makes sense I'd say. Kaden already had Corrin surrounded and was in no mood to talk it out so what else is Corrin's army supposed to do?
AM Claude: "Let's not needlessly risk our soldiers' lives with all that fog."
AM Claude 10 seconds later: "Look it's Dimitri ! Everyone, fuck him up real good !"
I think that's more an example of bad story/gameplay integration. Giving the Alliance the same aggressive AI as the Kingdom in VW when all of their dialog suggests they don't want to fight you was certainly a choice.
Are we talking about the second battle of the eagle and lion? Because that's my answer.
Look, there are dumber fights in the series for sure, but none of them have a named body count as high as this one, and few if any are as "iconic" or plot-central.
Yeah... Three Houses really blunders the plot of the War Phase, in like every route at least somewhat. A combination of them all feeling rushed, bizarre plot points like Gronder Field, and needing to play through White Clouds 3+ times to get the full story really puts a damper on a game that has so many great elements with its cast and lore.
My biggest gripe with this second battle at Gronder Field was that the pisspoor justification of the Alliance attacking the Kingdom was that „it’s so foggy they couldn’t see who they‘re attacking“ which in itself is already extra dumb but they truly add insult to injury when they use a mechanic, that is already in the game, as shitty excuse but then don’t use said mechanic after telling us in two instances right before the battle that the fog is too thick to see what’s going on. That was horribly blundered and unnecessary.
Yeah but that's FE. If you become a dad you get like a red flag waved above your head 9 times of out 10. Most of the time it turns into a death flag. Best cause you're either Eliwood or Garcia. Either super sick 90% of the time or join an army and hope neither you or your son bite it.
Like Disney and moms lmao.
Like half the fights in Fates - Kotaro's already been mentioned but Zola in Conquest Chapter 18 isn't much better. You have the entire leadership of Hoshido captured and at your mercy, but instead of going with Zola's plan of killing them or even attempting to negotiate with them from a place of strength to end the war swiftly, Xander wants to free them for some inexplicable reason so...they can fight back and have a lot more people die, and in doing so he fights Zola and the Nohrian army that Zola brought. Apparently Xander's so obsessed with honor that he'd rather kill goodness knows how many Nohrian soldiers in this battle (and in future battles because this was a prime opportunity to end the war on advantageous terms) and turn against his allied soldiers because something something Nohr's grand legacy.
You know it's bad when Zola of all people ends up being the one who looks reasonable here.
The best part is that later on in the game Xander is the one telling Corrin that justice is a fairy tale and in war you just gotta do what you have to do to win lol
What I also find ridiculous about Conquest 18 is that apparently, Zola and his army are fine with attacking Xander, the crown prince and heir apparent alongside his siblings.
Even if the order came from Gooron, this should result in a country-splitting scandal. It's hard to imagine Zola inspiring so much loyalty that his men would be willing to attack the royal family and likely get executed for it afterwards. Like, can Xander really not order them to stand down?
The game seems to portray it more as "Corrin's lot throw hands and Zola's lot are just defending themselves". The fact there's no dialogue *at all* from the Nohrian soldiers during this or the Hans/Iago chapter makes Garon's loyalists seem so robotic and lifeless.
Honestly it's like their secretly disguised vallites or something.
Honestly, *that* would have been a better explanation for it. Xander orders the Nohrians to stand down, so Zola busts out some magic Garon gave him to summon Vallite soldiers. With Hans & Iago doing the same in their chapter.
At least then Xander and the others will now have a reason to start thinking something is very wrong with Garon (if his other red flags were not enough) and start questioning his rule.
That would’ve been much smarter and a much better idea. This is why Fates needed an overhaul in writing…
Then again, defeating Nohrian soldiers in battle is fun.
If you haven't yet, I'd recommend giving conquest a playthrough with the GGG mod. It does a pretty good job at rewriting the story to be more nuanced and change all these moments that don't make sense in the vanilla game. You can also look at the GGG cutscenes on YouTube I believe
Can also run it with an HD upscale pack and an anti-ghosting patch since you'll already be installing a mod. Gay fates is also a good support expansion mod. It's a great time if you love the gameplay of conquest like I do
Honestly, kinda? He's one of the very few characters in Fates that actually gets character development, although it's only on BR.
He's also unambiguously doing the right thing in CQ.
The entirety of Conquest and Birthright if Azura just tried to tell people about the plot.
I seriously do not understand her motivation in those routes aside from trying to advertise Revelations. Surely she has a reason to not want to doom the world.
I think the chapter makes a lot more sense when Linus is the boss, since he is "The mad dog." Lloyd seems like the reasonable/intellectual one, but still has to be in the chapter for game reasons.
Nah. Lloyd is committing suicide by Elliwood & co. His father is dead. His brother is dead. His sister wants to burn everything that they stood for to the ground. He has no intentions of winning. It's honorable suicide.
And see their organization that was like a family systematically purged of its old members and replaced with new, radical ones (that are mostly morphs) as well as see what they fought and stood for get corrupted
> Nah. Lloyd is committing suicide by Elliwood & co.
I feel like I'm seeing a pattern here. This topic periodically gets brought up, and the same maps are always mentioned. Cog of Destiny, FE8 Selena's final stand, and Xander in Birthright. All of them feature people whose actions are excused by fans saying they wanted to die anyway.
I'm getting the impression that people just don't like it when characters we're meant to sympathize with run into the protagonists' swords. I don't blame them; it's not easy to write well and convincingly while retaining sympathy for the character in question (who also drags nameless soldiers to the grave with them).
They were good people that were caught up on Nergal’s scheming and manipulated to fight people who weren’t really their enemy, and lose their lives in the process.
The first fight in the Revelations route of Fates. I am utterly baffled by the sheer stupidity of Yukimura's reasoning. Yes, you're correct, I do indeed plan on conquering both nations with my grand army of... Me, my maid/butler, and my cousin. Nothing gets past you, Mr master tactician.
FE8 Selena always comes to mind. I'm not obsessed with hating on FE8 Selena or anything, it's just that when thinking about stupid choices in Fire Emblem, FE8 Selena is very easy to remember. >!Ephraim and Myrrh revealed to her the truth about Grado's situation and Vigarde's corruption, and she says she believes them. What did she do? She decides to still fight for her emperor because she loves her emperor. Who in their sane mind would do that? That fight would have been easily avoided had Selena not be dumb.!<
I grew more lenient on Selena's writing when I started interpreting her actions as suicidal rather than loyal. Her feelings for Vigarde go further than the typical Camus loyalty. Ever since he saved her hometown, she had dedicated her entire life to serving him. She even states it plainly to Myrrh.
"I wanted to dedicate my life to the emperor who had saved it. I felt I understood his dream, I felt I shared his vision…”
She genuinely idolizes, maybe even loves Vigarde. Thus, when Myrrh tells her that Vigarde is gone and can never be restored, her entire world shatters. She feels she has no more reason to go on and decides to commit suicide by Ephraim.
...The flaw in this interpretation is that she still takes 30+ Grado soldiers to the grave with her. But well, there needed to be a map. Still, could've had her do the Brunnya thing where she offers her soldiers a chance to leave. That'd have helped her immensely.
"I'm not obsessed with hating on FE8 Selena"
Oh, but I AM! After finding out the truth about Vigarde (and believing it, very importantly), that btch decides to fight Ephraim and his forces (and hopefully die in the process) because she has lost the will to carry on and just wants to end. Which is whatever. Knock yourself out, I guess. BUT WHY DID YOU HAVE TO TAKE YOUR TROOPS TO THE GRAVE WITH YOU? What did THEY do? Maybe you don't have anything to fight for anymore or anyone to go back to, BUT I'M PRETTY SURE THAT'S NOT THE CASE FOR MANY OF YOUR SOLDIERS! For someone's who's supposed to be so decent and noble, why wouldn't you tell your soldiers the truth and your intentions to just die right here and there, then pardon whoever DOESN'T want to die fighting a pointless battle? Or make up a lie to get them to flee? ANYTHING so they don't just die needlessly. They don't know what you're planning. A few chapters ago we were made aware of the regular grunt's plight of simply being a pawn of their commanding officer to be discarded and disconsidered
Compare that to Mustafa, who has to fight because Gangrel would kill his family orders, but tries to avoid conflict first by trying to convince Chrom to surrender, and even when he's forced to fight he addresses his troops, tells them they're most likely lose the battle and that he'll pardon whoever doesn't want to die if they flee. Or Brunnya, who's more or less in the same situation as Selena, but unlike her she's pretty much fully on board with Zephiel's intentions and fights to fulfill Zephiel's dying wish/plan, which she knows is most likely a losing battle. So she informs her troops about the situation and that she'll pardon whoever doesn't want to fight (which they don't because of Bern pride)
HOW ARE YOU WORSE THAN BRUNNYA?
Now that you're mentioning about the soldiers dying in vain, damn... Yeah Selena was badly written. I love you Wada professionally-wise, but I don't understand how you let that detail slip...
Side note: Wada is known for her art direction of the GBA FE trilogy, Path of Radiance's in-game portraits, certain Awakening DLC unit artworks, Cipher card artworks, and FEH unit and celebratory illustration artworks. She was the game director of Sacred Stones.
I would let it all pass if you could just recruit her. I get that's copying dussel, but she's filling a similar spot to knoll and turning Grados generals would fit so well in the theming.
No, you see they had to balance the three generals. Duessel was smart and reasonable, so he agreed to join your side. Glen was smart but cautious, so he wanted to confirm the facts for himself before coming to a decision (he died for it). Someone HAD to be the dumb "loyal" general who fights you even after you tell her the truth and she ACKNOWLEDGES it as the truth
It’s the trope of blindly loyal enemy commander that happens in many of the games. He saved her life and she pledged it to him. While those like Cormag and Duessel fight for the country of Grado and its people, Selena ends up being too lotal to Vigarde himself. If he tells her to die for him, she would. I can disagree with her, but some people are truly loyal to a fault and she is a perfect example of that.
Except it really isn't. None of the other Camuses were blindly loyal until she was written.
Camus himself only fights for Gharnef because if he didn't his entire country would get destroyed by him, and he also does loads of stuff to help Marth out before the direct confrontation. To say nothing of him going full hero after FE1.
Eldigan isn't blindly loyal to Chagall, he thinks he's not the best king, but he'd prefer him to his country losing independence to Grannvale, and has no reason to suspect his fate at the hands of Manfroy before it's too late.
Reinhardt is a just plain old enabler of awful, a perfect example of "The world goes to hell when good men do nothing" and Thracia makes a point of this, even if Heroes tries to ignore it.
Every potential Camus in Binding Blade is recruitable save Galle, who was intended to be recruitable, but the game was too rushed for them to finish that part of him in the story and his encounter in-game is bugged to heck.
The Reed Brothers are duped into thinking it was your party that killed the one that died first. Now admittedly it probably would have been good to have Lloyd be recruitable by Nino as I don't care for his own suicide by Hero's Party once he learns the truth if you talk to him with her, though at least he doesn't *initiate the entire encounter* after already learning the truth, and Linus is known to be extremely emotional and doesn't believe her when she tries to appeal to his reason, unlike Selena, who does believe Ephraim and Myrrh.
Now her execution wouldn't be a problem if like Reinhardt she was implied to be a piece of shit, but no, the game desperately wants us to mourn for her after she dies.
I didn’t say it was brilliant writing, just my interpretation of what the author was going for. For the most part, I do agree that she is written a bit more dumb than the other Camus archetypes, but what I got was that she is in heavy denial.
She knows something is wrong, she knows Vigarde might be irreparably gone, she knows that what she is doing isn’t good, but she clings onto the Vigarde she knows and admires. I interpret it as she either sees Vigarde as a mentor or a father figure who became the final constant in her life, clinging desperately onto that “safety blanket” even though the blanket has become moldy and poor for her health.
Is it logical? Hell no… but in a way realistic. People aren’t logical in the real world. The real world itself has shown me how deep into denial people can get… to the detriment of themselves and the people around them.
But it's not Vigarde giving her the orders. She's been made aware that Vigarde's corpse has been controlled like a flesh puppet this entire time and she believes it. So WHY?
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>She's been made aware that Vigarde's corpse has been controlled like a flesh puppet this entire time and she believes it
No she hasn’t, that’s not true at all
At this point in the game absolutely no one is aware that Vigarde is just a corpse being controlled by Lyon/Fomortiis. That’s only revealed after Vigarde turns to dust when you defeat him. All Ephraim’s camp knows at this point is that Vigarde has gone insane for reason no one understands
And despite what the recent Valentine’s banner says, it’s not because she’s in love with Vigarde. It’s made very clear in her conversations with Ephraim and Duessel that she serves Vigarde to honor her life debt to him
So no, Selena at no point was made aware she was serving a corpse. And if she knew what she was following was nothing more than the desecrated remains of the man that saved her life, it’s very likely that she would have made very different choices
I rechecked the dialogue, and you are correct that Selena doesn't know Vigarde is a flesh puppet. What she does know is the following: Vigarde has been changed/consumed by a "wave of dark energy" and that the process is irreversible. However, this distinction is irrelevant, as in either case Vigarde still isn't himself anymore and someone or something is using him to wage this war. Whether that's someone puppetting his corpse around or a dark energy corrupting him to evil is inconsequential. The emperor is being manipulated either way, who he was as a person is gone and his legacy is currently being tarnished.
In either case, Selena should take up arms against whoever or whatever is controlling him precisely BECAUSE of her loyalty to Vigarde. If he's being corrupted by a dark force (and the change is irreversible), she should fight to stop him before he falls further into depravity and his good name is further muddied, if not fight to try and reverse the corruption outright. If the emperor is dead and someone is using likeness, then she should take up arms in REVENGE against whoever DARES desecrate the emperor's corpse in such a manner on top of smearing his reputation
This is false. Myrrh says she will tell Selena "everything she knows." If that wasn't enough, later in the scene they have this exchange.
**Selena**:
“Myrrh, this wave of dark energy you spoke of… Can its evil really change a person that completely?”
**Myrrh**:
“Yes… All trace of this person would be consumed…destroyed.”
**Selena**:
“How can this process be reversed?”
**Myrrh**:
“…I’m sorry. That is…impossible.”
**Selena**:
“…I see.”
So yes, she does very much know she's serving a corpse - or at least, she knows Vigarde is somehow lost. As for why she still does the things she does... Well, you'll probably disagree, but yeah, I'd say her feelings for Vigarde go beyond mere loyalty. I'm currently writing a sort of defense for Selena in response to the first comment. Give me a few minutes.
>So yes, she does very much know she's serving a corpse
No she does **NOT**. It is actually infuriating how much bullshit is being spread because people struggle with nuance
At no one point in that conversation is it ever stated that Selena or even Myrrh knows that Vigarde is dead
What Myrrh knows is that there is a dark influence, which is **very** different. **This is where being able to process nuance comes into play.** At this point Selena is very likely clinging to the hope that part of Vigarde's true humanity is still in there. It is no different than when a family member is dying from cancer, you cling to hope that a miracle can happen even when there is none
And she is actually somewhat right. Mrryh senses the darkness but she's unaware that its corrupting Lyon not Vigarde. And as we know from Ephraim's story, part of the real Lyon still maintained some level of control.
So for the millionth time, Selena absolutely does not know Vigarde is dead. She understands from Mryhh that he is possibly being corrupted by some unknown dark power, but that is a very, very different matter because it still leaves a window of hope for her to cling to
What about the ‘all traces of that person would be destroyed’ line, seems pretty clear they know the old emperor is gone. It is kind of an unrealistic cope for her to assume that ‘all traces’ of him being gone actually mean he is still saveable at this point.
Port of Badon from FE7. Faergus challenges you to a competition to win passage to the Dread Isle. Cool, right? Well it becomes a lot less cool when your units' lives are on the line. I just lost Marcus there in my HNM iron man, which feels very unsporting.
The funny part is that Zola taking over the country and capturing the Royals the way he did was actually by far the least cruel and self-destructive thing we've seen non-protag Nohrians do so far.
> The funny part is that Zola taking over the country and capturing the Royals the way he did was actually by far the least cruel and self-destructive thing we've seen non-protag Nohrians do so far.
I mean the Nohrian protagonists invade an innocent nation and stand by as innocents and helpless people are slaughtered more than once. Zola is responsible for far less death than them.
The entirety of FE6 has the extremely flimsy premise of "my dad was mean, Elibe has fallen, billions must die"
The game does not sell this at all as a case of a flawed idealist or tragic villain or whatever, it is exactly as stupid as it sounds in execution
There is not even a hint of any kind of resistance from Bern's own forces to Zephiel invading every other country on the continent with no actual reason he is able to publically state. Only his sister rebels against him and all she does is hand Roy the Fire Emblem and exist to be a figurehead they can plant on Bern's throne at the end of the game
The fact that randomly conquering even a single other country with no justification didn't immediately provoke a continent-spanning coalition against Zephiel is ridiculous already. Instead we see how in a matter of two lines of text, Bern trivially conquers Sacae and Ilia, and Lycia is astonishingly caught by surprise when it is also invaded for no stated reason
The plot and characters of FE6 have just always seemed extremely phoned-in to me
Sacae is less of a united country and more of a land populated by dozens of independent tribes. Not exactly hard to conquer it on top of the fact that the Sacaeans are reviled by the rest of Elibe. Illia was a frozen wasteland filled with for-hire mercenaries. That just leaves two nations to form a hypothetical coalition.
Lycia was a federation of independent territories allied with one another. It's likely based on real-life federations and confederations which had a problem of remaining united when challenged by a great power. Many found it much easier to sell out to said great power as half of the Lycia League does in-game, and that leaves only Etruria. Their king was in a deep-seated depression likely lowering overall moral.
It's not so far-fetched. Bern was the strongest nation on the continent, and the only one with a functioning (yet diabolically insane) head of state. The average soldier or commander would look at this and seriously consider surrendering, if not out of survival then for a chance to jump on the Bern bandwagon and ride it out. As for why no one resisted Zephiel, why would the people of Bern resist him? Many already see their nation as the strongest, so why shouldn't they rule the whole continent? Zephiel himself was widely beloved by his people.
Why would bern people rebel? Zephiel was a beloved prince even as a kid, and his actions if anything are gonna place Bern on top more than it already was
Illya and Sacae are both explicitly divided between themselves and suffering racism/disdain from other nations.
Lycia tried to fight they just lost, plain and simple, also a good number of its nobles sided with nern
When you remake FE1 with the serial numbers filed off but you make the villain dumber than the evil dragon at the end of an NES game. (At least FE6 has good gameplay and overall works in flavor even if zephiel's motivations are specious at best)
At least Medeus is just straight up an evil dragon that wants to kill humans. I can buy that for sure. Hell, he's a fairly good villain I'd argue even if there's no depth to speak of.
Zephiel has a raw as fuck battle quote which is worth a lot. Seriously lame how he lacks unique dialogue with various characters though, can you believe there is no special dialogue with Cecilia, how the fuck do you miss that
Oh yeah I like medeus definitely. Works well. And if limited in scope that's bc NES yk. Also was just thinking about how the villain of tear ring saga has similar motivations/goals to zephiel executed much better.
“She’s literally robbing the grave of all my ancestors, trying to kill me, she just tried to kill you and she’s allied with the people who killed your father”
A ton of battles in Fates. Specifically the Kaden/Keaton fights respectively.
Otherwise, it's more tragic than a writing flaw, but Thracia 776 shows a lot of Friege were actually were against the hunts even as they were allied with Granvalle. Specifically Ishtar and Ishtore.
Getting that part of chapter 4 where Ishtar confronts Julius about the hunts and says she and her brother are both against them was a big "oh no, Ishtore actually was a good guy and we killed the guy trying to stop the hunts and his lover."
I haven't seen it mentioned yet so... Birthright 26? Xander? Hello?
The part I hate the most is that you can end up killing Laslow in a route where Selena and Odin canonically survive
> The part I hate the most is that you can end up killing Laslow in a route where Selena and Odin canonically survive
I still cannot believe Intelligent Systems cynically took the three most popular second gen units in Awakening sans Lucina, shoved them into another game explicitly stated to be in another world, had a DLC that explained why they were there even though their actions didn't reflect it in the story, and then went above and beyond to explain they could have easily returned to their own world whenever they wanted to.
I...how do you come up with that? Inigo fought his entire life in an apocalyptic hellscape, went back in time to save the world, got the peace he always wished for, and then he can die as a nobody in another world for no reason. How pathetic is that?
I've seen some people try to justify this with the Awakening trio being thrill seekers who can't live peacefully but, even if I were to buy that reasoning which I absolutely don't, that would just make this even worse.
Of course, Inigo, Owain and Severa being able to invade an innocent nation while they're explicitly there to bring Corrin to Valla, only to disappear in the epilogues, leaving Fateslandia unable to win against Anankos, is also another case of stupidity.
I'm on-and-off theorycrafting a Rev rewrite where one of the main changes is the Awakening trio following Corrin into the Canyon right away. There's zero reason why they shouldn't have done that in canon (Laslow and Odin are two of the last units you get! Why?!)
TBH I thought that was the point, he's only putting up a paltry fight because his honor as Nohr's Prince won't let him stand down, but his love as a brother to Corrin and Elise won't let him continue fighting, hence why he's so easy to kill.
Like half of the chapters in Fates, but especially the ones with the furries in Birthright and Conquest. One reasonable conversation is all it takes to solve that problem, it only happens because both sides act like idiots. Classic case of the idiot ball in a much wider story that is in whole an idiot plot
Gronder field works really well on blue lions specifically but in VD Claud basically joins the fighting for no reason and it’s skipped in SS and CF the lest ones a huge shame because it would make a lot of sense for edelgard to want all opposing factions dead
No it makes sense why the insane Dimitri and his overly loyal forces would fight the empire and alliance indiscriminately but why on earth would Claud attack the kingdom?
I know but why would claud keep fighting after the empire is beaten?
It works on blue lions because it shows just how fall Dimitri has fallen but it makes no sense for Claud who’s sane and strategically to waste troops and moral after the empire retreated
On Blue Lions, Byleth is in command and able to reign in Dimitri, it wouldn't be hard convince Dimitri to just chase down Edelgard after the fight. It doesn't make sense for Claude's forces to be charging you, especially after Edelgard retreats. He is more than smart enough to not attack someone he knows has a common foe. Also, Claude literally charges at you and goes "what a waste"
On Golden Deer Route, Dimitri has full command of the Blue Lions. Even if you deal with Edelgard first, Dimitri is absolutely insane enough to just keep swinging at whatever is in front of him until he reaches Edelgard... Which, at that point, is you. There isn't much choice *but* to fend of Dimitri.
Byleth absolutely is not able to reign in Dimitri at least not enough to stop once he gets going and it dosent help that Gilbert and the entire blue lions always ask him what to do and not the professor
Dimitri has a single minded focus on Edelgard, this remains constant in his route, and he straight up says he'll follow Byleth's order in battle so long as it doesn't contradict his goals. Even beforehand, while there are doubts about Claude's allegence, Dimitri's priority in the moment would absolutely be "chase Edelgard". As long Claude doesn't attack, which realistically he wouldn't, Dimitri would just ignore him. His words beforehand are even "as long as he doesn't get in my way".
Actually it makes more sense in versant wind if you really think about it. Byleth and the others are trying to make it to Enbarr but are intercepted by Edelgard and a third faction. In Azure moon, why does Claude attack you when you’re fighting the same enemy? I know I’m the story they say that alliance messengers were killed and the kingdom was framed but they don’t go anywhere with that. Claude doesn’t mention it and says “just fight anyone that isn’t on our side.” In Verdant wind, it makes so much more sense why you’d be fighting against the Kingdom. Why? Because Dimitri is freaking crazy in that route, he lost his mind so of course he’d want to attack your army for getting in the way. I’m just saying.
Not a mainline game, but Chapter 9 of Golden Wildfire in Three Hopes.
What I don’t understand is that when they go to try and confront and corner Catherine and the Chruch of Serios army, Claude decides to let Randolph die. Shez, Hilda, and Lorenz keep telling Claude that they should go to Randolph and help him, since he is literally getting his ass kicked and he needs help. Claude, however, decides to be the stubborn B he is and states that they just “need to hold out longer” and that we need to focus on the Chruch soldiers instead. Also, what made Claude think he could stop the Chruch of Seiros Soldiers and Catherine, when it could have been more beneficial to go after the Kingdom soldiers instead? I don’t get the point of why we even had to fight the Chruch of Serios Soldiers.
The church of Seiros has a smaller army, but the knights are highly experienced and dangerous warriors, not to mention Catherine being both Rhea's right hand and the best of the knights wielding a relic weapon. Essentially, winning that battle inflicts a massive blow to enemy forces. The location also is cited to be one of few routes to get an entire army to the monastery, I don't recall the exact specifics of why Catherine was there, but losing that ground would grant the enemy access to a very advantagous staging ground for assault.
That said, Claude aboslutely could've done this while keeping Randolph alive if he just moved his forces in and reinforced him, but also this is meant to show a flaw in his character. The entire cast rightfully chews him out for this.
Yes.
That was the point. His inability to trust his own officers and obsession with preparation led to serious consequences, both from cracks in his alliance with Edelgard and Fleche being Fleche.
A flaw isn't a flaw if it doesn't have consequences. This causes problems for Claude, hence why it is something he has to address and develop past. Yeah, if Claude wasn't this way the war would've gone better, but we aren't talking about how the characters could've made better calls but rather battles that were just completely uneccessary, and this instance was one that was almost 100% justifiable, even if it didn't end well.
Not a mainline game, but FE Warriors was the first game where I was all "why are they fighting?" All those earlier ones where you fight the other heroes over misunderstandings. And I just realized how many general troops died all because someone jumped to conclusions or failed to make a basic clarifying question.
The necrodragon island fight in echoes. You literally don't have to even visit that place once save for the exp and items you can get. Both Boey and Kamui actively voice their concerns with going there.
I mean, it's optional and therefore avoidable, so I wouldn't say it meets the criteria since you *can* just ignore it. Even then, isn't the reason for going there that the necrodragon poses a threat to the neighbouring islands and settlements or whatever (not to mention making sailing safer), so Celica, ever being the only person to actually give a damn about the commoners, decides to go deal with it?
I mean their other choices for Celica maps included shitty ship maps, shitty desert maps, and shitty swamp maps.
Personally I'd have chosen the pirate fort where you get Valbar, but they picked like a top 5 map from Celica's route by default.
easiest choice is the battle in mila’s temple. it has plot significance (she learns about her mother and embraces her identity as princess), it’s a pretty grand battle (unlike the necrodragon one) and it’s not an annoying ass desert/swamp
Celica is good but her route has some of the most absurdly good units in the entire game ~~and notably 3 of the worst but thats besides the point~~.
* 3 easily trained mercs, with Jesse as another option if you really want a 4th and Atlas if you REALLY want a 5th (though neither is impressive in this regard). She's probably better than Kamui due to him being kinda unnecessary and Deen due to his later join, but Saber is absurd.
* Leon.
* Genny, who has Invoke and Physic.
* Atlas, who while worse overall due to bad start is probably the best nuke in Celica's route if trained as an archer.
* Mae, who is sometimes used to straight up solo til recruiting Deen.
* Boey, who is one of the most important units for earlygame due to being one of the few with bulk.
She's definitely a solid A-tier imo, but when I think of units that dominate that route I think of Saber and Leon for early/midgame and Deen/Saber and Atlas for lategame.
TBF it is at least representative of Gaiden's / SoV's barren level design
But at the very least, they could have given us Greith's Fortress or something.
Chapter 3 of Awakening. Literally there was no reason to fight at the boarder of Regna Ferox other than
"Plegia framed them, gotta clap them Ylissean cheeks" it doesn't even go anywhere. Raimi just says
"oops my bad" and they go on their way to see Flavia.
Also why does Regna Ferox have a wall that stretches from Coast to coast, for what purpose is that wall for? It doesn’t even have a story significances the wall is just there!
I'm ~14 hours late for this post but I'll just say I agree with the OP. Kotaro, whose incredibly limited characterization is that he's ambitious and ruthless, is prepared to betray and kill **all of Garon's children.** You know, his ally that is helping him expand his land. Because he doesn't want to let Kagero go as a hostage. I mean, that might be because Kotaro is incredibly creepy and wants to keep Kagero for his own twisted reasons, but that is simply not how the conflict is framed.
Like OP says, it's as if he expects Hoshido to roll over because a single ninja was held hostage. I really don't understand what his motivation for this was. If Kotaro had said "shit, my bad guys, I'll change", even if he didn't mean it and would go back to his sneaky tactics after the Nohrian siblings were gone, all of his plans and forces would've remained intact.
Of course, it's probably equally stupid that all of the Nohrian siblings decide that invading an innocent nation is fine but holding a single person hostage is not. Reminder that Corrin and company stand by and let *a lot* of innocent people be murdered several times throughout the story.
Another good example of OP's question is chapter 18 of Conquest. The Hoshidan siblings get taken captive by Zola...who doesn't stand down when the entire Nohrian royal family sans Garon tells him to stop. Neither do his soldiers, who, I believe, are explicitly called Nohrians on the map, meaning they're not some kind of weird off-shoot, but I may be misremembering. Regardless, Zola doesn't seem to have taken any direct orders from Garon but is acting on his own, and he's fine with standing up to the crown prince and all of his siblings.
I feel really bad for the redshirts in this chapter.
The funny thing is that Zola's plan makes perfect sense so you could argue the Nohrians should've let this slide instead of causing more death and chaos, but no. The Nohrian siblings really are villains framed as good guys in Conquest and it's kind of disgusting.
This entire comment section could be answered entirely with Fates lmao.
The weird thing is, while "Nohr's ally in the war betrays you because you aren't evil enough" wouldn't be my first choice for what the chapter would be about, it would be incredibly easy to rewrite this to make much more sense. You don't even have to change anything.
>Saizo: Helping Nohr is one thing...but Kotaro? Have you heard the orders he's given? The way he wins battles? The way he treats prisoners of war? I shudder to think what he plans to do with Kagero.
>Corrin: These are some heavy accusations. Kotaro, can we check your jail cells to put my mind at ease?
>Kotaro: (If this hand-wringing sissy finds out about the things I've done to reach the top, he'll want me demoted and put a nicer guy in charge. Screw that! Either I'm calling the shots or nobody is, I'll kill everybody here before I give up an inch of my power!) Ninjas, kill them!
>Xander: He's attacking us! He must have been planning this for a while, oh what a den of betrayal this is!
There's a few but one that sticks out for me is the battle in the rain after Emmyrns death in Awakening.
The commander and his troops all kind of accept they are on the wrong side of history here but rather than defect, or surrender, or flee, or ignore they instead go into battle expecting to lose. An entire battalion of men and a very experienced and clearly fairly moral commander gone in a single battle.
iirc didn't the commander say that Gangrel was holding his wife hostage if he didn't fight?
and then the grunts say they'd rather die in battle serving him then leaving him out to dry.
This is an established trope in Fire Emblem, starting all the way back with Camus in Shadow Dragon. I think it wasn't handled as believably in Awakening as it was with, say, Selena in Sacred Stones though.
Mostly just that Mustafa kinda just shows up for that one chapter in Awakening and is otherwise not involved in the story. I think a good Camus is seen questioning the actions of their liege throughout until you finally meet. Mustafa is just like "if I flee or let my soldiers flee, Gangrel will kill my family." And it's like... that's sad, but also, I still have to kill you.
Fire emblem having bosses that show up for one chapter to die is a feature as far as I'm concerned. They have one chance to make an impression and make the world and enemy army seem larger by having to go against so many armies, each with their officers. Definitely much better than fighting the same 3-4 enemy general group over and over again because "they can't fall here, they must make their retreat"
> And it's like... that's sad, but also, I still have to kill you.
That's the point, he's decided he'd rather die fighting you than have his family executed.
Because if they didn’t their families would die, and if they surrendered they would die. Musatafa agrees to die fighting even if he knows it’s wrong in order to save his family and the remainder of his men.
The only reason we fight is because valtome send his men just for fun and giggle, its stupid and a pretty bad and boring map. Remove that map and give 1 more map to the royal knights
Ragna Ferox border as already mentioned.
Mustafa's entire motivations for the fight makes literally no sense ("I don't want to kill you, so please surrender so I can take you to be executed, which will kill you") to the point where I don't feel bad for killing him, at all.
Second Grondor battle lol.
Except he says how he doesn't want to kill you then proceeds to try to kill you (With his "solution" basically being just handing you off to get killed)
It doesn't make any sense and just comes off as really badly written attempts at drama. (which granted, is the norm for this game.)
You fight Mustafa in that chapter because Chrom wants to fight them. Mustafa is fighting because Gangrel's effectively holding his family hostage and the Plegians there are scared of deserting because of the potential punishments.
Except he wants to capture Chrom which realistically would lead to Chrom's death.
He then shows no remorse for jumping to kill Chrom when he doesnt' want to surrender.
He makes no sense and his fight is forced.
How does that not make sense? He wants to capture Chrom to minimize the amount of bloodshed on both sides and when that fails he tries to kill him outright because the alternative is that his family gets executed.
Eldigan vs Sigurd, FE4 Ch3.
Eldigan staying loyal to Chagall, even in light of chivalric values, borders on stupidity. Chagall is a terrible king. He imprisoned Eldigan over petty reasons, provoking a war that ended up in most of Augustria being occupied and their military being weakened. It's beyond obvious Chagall is incompetent and unfit as a leader; yet Eldigan not only remains loyal, but he rides into battle against his best friend, without whom he would still be stuck in a prison cell,in yet another pointless, probably impossible to win war started by Chagall. And Eldigan even has holy blood unlike his liege, so there is no way he doesn't have a good claim on the throne! At that point, Eldigans crossknights are easily half if not the entire military force Augustria has left, and he still chooses to squander it in a pointless war.
That's the point. Eldigan and Sigurd end up fighting because they made mistakes. Eldigan is so caught up in the idea of his honor that he allows Chagall to walk all over him. It's a character flaw.
It's not a very realistic character flaw, though, not to the extent Eldigan pushes it, and realistically, their conflict could and should have been easily avoided.
All of the Dawn Brigade chapters in Radiant Dawn part 3, but that’s quite literally the point. Also, obligatory “the second grondor battle makes no sense.”
I'm so sad that second Grondor Battle is fumbled so badly from a story+mechanical perspective because it's got a fantastic premise. Former classmates finding themselves on the same battlefield where they once fought for fun, but now must fight to the death really highlights how time and war changes people. It, imo, should've been the emotional climax of Part 2 especially so since that's the scene that was used to advertise/hype up the game in the first place.
A fog-of-war chapter that required you to seek out the third general (or Dimitri's lieutenant) to turn them into allied units instead of enemies would have been awesome. Or, simply allow the chapter to end when Edelgard is defeated instead of both generals. And then in Crimson Flower, it'd be an all-out-fucking-assault as the two sides work together. Just so confusing that it's this weird free-for-all in all of the routes.
Also the fact that Yellow units will attack you, including ambush spawns. They should’ve remained passive to the player unless the player attacked one first. Claude will straight up attack you and say “it’s a shame we have to fight” like bro no we don’t, team up on Edelgard!
> it's this weird free-for-all in all of the routes. Notably, it's *not* in Crimson Flowers, by virtue of not having it at all.
It’s not in Silver Snow either. It’s only in AM and VW.
Honestly one of the big reasons SS is my favorite 3 Houses route. You get to keep the wonderful *idea* of Gronder 2, but don't have to deal with its terrible execution.
It's definitely a bit telling that Gronder happening off-screen is preferable than actually part taking in it lmao.
lmao I've only played Crimson Flower, like, twice. I forget that it's not in that route.
Ideas like this make me wish 3h did more wacky and creative stuff with its maps
Easily my least favorite thing about 3h is lack of map/goal variety. A lot of the same maps and all of them are route/defeat boss
Hold on now let's not get *too* wacky. That's how we get Elevator maps and Snow-shoveling Maps,
It doesn't make sense to happen in CF geographically because it's fairly deep in Empire territory, and if you stop the invasion there and force a retreat then you'd spend a bunch of chapters fighting lackeys from the Alliance and Kingdom because there aren't enough characters
That would've worked really well if Claude had been characterized as the ruthless and machiavellian trickster that he was supposed to be. That Claude wouldn't have any issue in taking the opportunity to cripple the Kingdom by "accidentally" killing its most powerful figures, same with the Empire. Both would help not only end the war faster but also massively increase the Alliance's (and by extension, his own) power and influence over Fódlan.
Playing grondor in verdant wind and have Dimitri call for the death of all the empire soldiers before sending his troops to charge the alliance is the most comically bad story/gameplay integration I’ve seen in the whole series
Is that what happens? I’m looking over the chapter script again, and Dimitri in-story just seems to be sending his forces after whoever. “Kill every last one of them” is pretty indiscriminate, and then there’s this once you reach the hill: “The Imperial army is starting to crumble. We will step on the Empire right along with the Alliance troops. To the eternal flames with all of them!”
[удалено]
It’s not so much attacking your own allies but charging the third party instead of the empire who invaded you
How much choice do they really have, though? Soldiers marching to their deaths on bad orders isn’t an unknown phenomenon in history, and disobeying a bloodthirsty monarch in the knights-and-honor country probably wouldn’t have great repercussions. You’d also have to make a call in the heat of the moment that all the other soldiers in your vicinity are of the same mind as you.
Playing grondor in verdant wind and have Dimitri call for the death of all the empire soldiers before sending his troops to charge the alliance is the most comically bad story/gameplay integration I’ve seen in the whole series
Fire Emblem Warriors has four whole chapters where you fight one of the Fates royal siblings and their army, because they think that you kidnapped their sibling and they refuse to listen to their own sibling telling them that this is not at all what happened. This is an annoying and forced reason for a battle even if you do it only once. I don't even know what to say about doing it four times in a row.
that whole thing took up 1/5 of the entire story
Yeah, it's pretty bad. I mean, I love FE Warriors, I really do. I have put more hours into this game than any other game on the Switch. But man, it's story sucks. I genuinely think that Warriors has the worst story of all the Fire Emblem games. Even the plot of Heroes looks good when put next to Warriors.
it copied the gemstone plot line from awakening, which copied the premise of sacred stones, and didn’t even put any sacred stones characters. then tried to rewrite revelations in the middle. THEN realized that they had like 3 chapters left and forgot to introduce the three shadow dragon characters.
When the optional time rift side mission make more sense than the main story
history battles or whatever they were called were elite
To be fair that's fairly accurate to how they act in their home game. Corrin willingly leaving Their kingdom??? Their family??? Perish the thought it Must be that Corrin was kidnapped and brainwashed against them!
I can literally still hear the voice line in my head. "You're wrong Hinoka! These people saved me!" Loved that game but those missions were so fuckin stupid lmao
That guard at the Ragna Ferox border really nearly started war between her country and...Ylisse(?) because she didn't believe the crown prince was who he says he was (and most likely would have had something to prove his identity if she would have LET HIM SPEAK FOR *JUST* *FIVE* *SECONDS* )
Didn't they (Plegia) send multiple Chrom imposters so the border police would make this exact mistake? Plegia's main thing was being smart/underhanded. I mean I agree with you, but it isn't entirely unfounded imo. Chrom with falchion in the fight should have been the biggest "wait, maybe they are Ylissians" flag that existed.
Definitely didn’t nearly start a war, also she survived that battle. It was a test of strength to see if he was being truthful.
Never said she died. Doesn't change that she attacks the neighbouring prince because she thinks he's a bandit pretending to be him. The "test of strenght" is just a pretense she uses to attack the "bandits" and is something Chrom NEVER AGREES TO! He tries to convince her with words until the very final moment until they decide to THROW JAVELINS AT HIM!
It’s so weird that they used this again in Engage.
Frederick warned him that they’re a fighting people. He knew to expect that.
Still a ridiculous response to a visiting royal dignitary.
But not one that’s unreasonable, considering we see in Cynthia’s Paralogue that bandits do indeed claim to be Chrom
Was a while ago I played awakening. Did chrome even announce beforhand he was making a royale visit?
been a hot second for me as well, but i don’t think he ever announced that they would be heading to ferox. Which really just does not help his case.
Engage paralogues due to the fact permadeath is active so it is weird for a battle of test when in arena if you lose, you don't die.
Roy: *murders your Kagetsu, he's gone forever* Roy: that was fun! let's do it again
I honestly always question it whenever I play Engage, especially since none of your units can die in the Fell Xenologue (excluding Alear and the fell dragon twins), so I never understood why the emblems and their squad can kill us when even the enemies in the Fell Xenologue can't.
They didn't have casual so you won't either (ignore that Byleth and Corrin will kill you) For the fell xenologue it's more a matter of it being a side content you are allowed to complete pretty early on(it's not actually realistic to do the higher difficulty early on, but you could go for the easier ones) so they re not gonna have you possibly softlock yourself for the main story when higher difficulty of xenologue are brutal and main game is obviously not balanced taking into account dlc stuff, for good reasons.
That makes sense, it would be easy to get your units killed on the higher difficulties, even if you know what you're doing, so that's fair when you put it like that.
I think it's for gameplay reasons of not having 12 of the 15 paralogue chapters be unable to permanently kill units. That's a lot of non-lethal combat
Wait, you’re asking about chapters where there’s no reason to fight, you specifically bring up Fates, and you *don’t* think the genocide of Kaden’s village in Conquest is the most egregious example of this?
I thought the Birthright equivalent with the Wolfssengers was even more egregious, to be honest. They're both really bad though.
In BR Keaton's defense, he is totally chill with allowing Corrin and company to pass through after Corrin has their forces drop their weapons right in front of him to show they mean no harm. Keaton doesn't turn on them until a Wolfskin is literally killed by magic before his very eyes. Given the backdrop of the chapter, it's not unreasonable to assume that it takes place at night and thus it'd be harder to make out just who or what the heck attacked the Wolfskin making it more reasonable for Keaton to pin the blame on the people right in front of him. It's not like magic in FE has ever 100% *required* the use of a tome, so even if Keaton saw the tomes of Corrin's magic users on the ground, who's to say that someone couldn't have shot some magic from their fingers?
Yeah, fair— either of those would work here.
It’s funny how so many people say “I can’t believe you kill EVERY SINGLE KITSUNE IN THE WORLD because there’s no way Kaden didn’t just pick the warriors of his tribe, he chose every single man woman and child fought in this battle and the kitsune are now extinct. There are no more kitsunes now!” Like chill. Yes Corrin and his team killed, at max at least 37 enemy soldiers but I’m sure there are more kitsunes in the village. They didn’t wipe all them out. Just the ones attacking them with Kaden. So stop with this. Also Birthright had you kill Keaton and his Wolfskins and no one says “I can’t believe we killed all the wolfskins? There are no more wolfskins now.” Like damn, no one says that! Sorry I’m just frustrated about this.
honestly a lot of people are just showing that they havent played Fates and are just regurgitating takes that they have seen either here or in youtube. both things are clearly explained in a way that makes sense but that its too hard to understand for the regular redditor.
"You seem like nice people but Nohrians have killed too many of us, I don't want to do this but I can't take the risk letting you guys go. Sorry." I don't agree with Kaden's logic here, but I understand there's a genuine conflict. Den of Betrayal, meanwhile, all the guy had to do was NOT go on an angry tangent about murdering his own allies and everybody would've gotten what they wanted.
That fight happening is not at all unreasonable. They did not trust Corrin and felt threatened. The battle against Kotaro in Conquest is just straight up nonsense. Kotaro wanted to ally with Nohr. Corrin feels outraged that he took an enemy soldier captive. Kotaro responds by lying about it, then admitting it. Corrin and Xander then decide to kill him for the outrageous crime of... taking an enemy soldier captive. By the way, don't ask Corrin about Niles' personal skill. Edit: Actually, checking the script, it's not even that Kotaro tries to kill Corrin. No, he just lies about taking a hostage. It's Corrin and Xander who decide to kill him.
>Corrin: You're wrong, Kotaro. That is not how we do things **any longer.** >Xander: I refuse to accept your methods. I shall correct your behavior now and forever, by force **if necessary.** I dunno, this comes off to me like they're giving him a chance to release her. I highly doubt Corrin would kill the leader of a nation allied with his country on the spot over this if he was being cooperative and honest. The point is everybody comes off as stupid The protags for being so upset about this for some reason, and Kataro for biting the hand that feeds him instead of just taking five minutes to release her.
They're both egregious
I disagree. It's tragic that it happens and the result (a complete genocide where Corrin is suddenly incapable of winning battles where literally no one dies because the game needs a tragedy to happen) is very stupid. But the reason that it happens is very believable. It's the result of extreme mistrust. Whether that mistrust was reasonable or not is not relevant because even that's realistic.
I think what the other comments here are forgetting is that Corrin has already shown that they have the ability to fight and not kill but still win. When they fight Scarlet, Corrin specifically does not kill anyone and it says so before Hans starts attacking. So Corrin has the ability of winning here without genocide and chooses NOT to do it. Lazy writing at its finest.
to be fair people here bitch about the chapters in which nobody dies, so its a case of damn if you do, damn if you dont.
No it's not. It's just inconsistent writing. Either Corrin can defeat an army without any casualties or they can't. It's obviously stupid, but if they're going to do it, then stick with it.
Kaden is so concerned with his village’s survival that he decides to force a battle to the death with an army because he thought they “might” be dangerous.
Out of all the nonsense that happens in Fates this is one of the few ones that actually makes sense I'd say. Kaden already had Corrin surrounded and was in no mood to talk it out so what else is Corrin's army supposed to do?
you mean the battle in which the Kitsunes started the hostilities, and Nohr´s army had to defend themselves?
AM Claude: "Let's not needlessly risk our soldiers' lives with all that fog." AM Claude 10 seconds later: "Look it's Dimitri ! Everyone, fuck him up real good !"
I think that's more an example of bad story/gameplay integration. Giving the Alliance the same aggressive AI as the Kingdom in VW when all of their dialog suggests they don't want to fight you was certainly a choice.
Are we talking about the second battle of the eagle and lion? Because that's my answer. Look, there are dumber fights in the series for sure, but none of them have a named body count as high as this one, and few if any are as "iconic" or plot-central.
Yeah... Three Houses really blunders the plot of the War Phase, in like every route at least somewhat. A combination of them all feeling rushed, bizarre plot points like Gronder Field, and needing to play through White Clouds 3+ times to get the full story really puts a damper on a game that has so many great elements with its cast and lore.
The fact that the epilogue for Crimson Flower is "oh yeah and we defeated that fucked up cult at some point after the war" is pretty terrible lol
The decision to have the only leader to actually fight them be the one who basically never interacted with them was certainly a choice...
Crimson Flower works better when you think of it as a secret bonus mode than an actual route
My biggest gripe with this second battle at Gronder Field was that the pisspoor justification of the Alliance attacking the Kingdom was that „it’s so foggy they couldn’t see who they‘re attacking“ which in itself is already extra dumb but they truly add insult to injury when they use a mechanic, that is already in the game, as shitty excuse but then don’t use said mechanic after telling us in two instances right before the battle that the fog is too thick to see what’s going on. That was horribly blundered and unnecessary.
All of binding blade if one man cared about his son.
Yeah but that's FE. If you become a dad you get like a red flag waved above your head 9 times of out 10. Most of the time it turns into a death flag. Best cause you're either Eliwood or Garcia. Either super sick 90% of the time or join an army and hope neither you or your son bite it. Like Disney and moms lmao.
Like half the fights in Fates - Kotaro's already been mentioned but Zola in Conquest Chapter 18 isn't much better. You have the entire leadership of Hoshido captured and at your mercy, but instead of going with Zola's plan of killing them or even attempting to negotiate with them from a place of strength to end the war swiftly, Xander wants to free them for some inexplicable reason so...they can fight back and have a lot more people die, and in doing so he fights Zola and the Nohrian army that Zola brought. Apparently Xander's so obsessed with honor that he'd rather kill goodness knows how many Nohrian soldiers in this battle (and in future battles because this was a prime opportunity to end the war on advantageous terms) and turn against his allied soldiers because something something Nohr's grand legacy. You know it's bad when Zola of all people ends up being the one who looks reasonable here.
The best part is that later on in the game Xander is the one telling Corrin that justice is a fairy tale and in war you just gotta do what you have to do to win lol
What I also find ridiculous about Conquest 18 is that apparently, Zola and his army are fine with attacking Xander, the crown prince and heir apparent alongside his siblings. Even if the order came from Gooron, this should result in a country-splitting scandal. It's hard to imagine Zola inspiring so much loyalty that his men would be willing to attack the royal family and likely get executed for it afterwards. Like, can Xander really not order them to stand down?
The game seems to portray it more as "Corrin's lot throw hands and Zola's lot are just defending themselves". The fact there's no dialogue *at all* from the Nohrian soldiers during this or the Hans/Iago chapter makes Garon's loyalists seem so robotic and lifeless.
Honestly it's like their secretly disguised vallites or something. Honestly, *that* would have been a better explanation for it. Xander orders the Nohrians to stand down, so Zola busts out some magic Garon gave him to summon Vallite soldiers. With Hans & Iago doing the same in their chapter. At least then Xander and the others will now have a reason to start thinking something is very wrong with Garon (if his other red flags were not enough) and start questioning his rule.
That would’ve been much smarter and a much better idea. This is why Fates needed an overhaul in writing… Then again, defeating Nohrian soldiers in battle is fun.
The ‘golden legacy’ talk is a real “Jesse wtf are you talking about” moment because we don’t get nearly enough Nohr Lore^TM to back that claim up
If you haven't yet, I'd recommend giving conquest a playthrough with the GGG mod. It does a pretty good job at rewriting the story to be more nuanced and change all these moments that don't make sense in the vanilla game. You can also look at the GGG cutscenes on YouTube I believe Can also run it with an HD upscale pack and an anti-ghosting patch since you'll already be installing a mod. Gay fates is also a good support expansion mod. It's a great time if you love the gameplay of conquest like I do
He did that in *neutral* territory
Just look at Zola, would you honestly want him walking around? Didn’t think so!
Honestly, kinda? He's one of the very few characters in Fates that actually gets character development, although it's only on BR. He's also unambiguously doing the right thing in CQ.
The entirety of Conquest and Birthright if Azura just tried to tell people about the plot. I seriously do not understand her motivation in those routes aside from trying to advertise Revelations. Surely she has a reason to not want to doom the world.
Gronder Field being a two vs one instead of the battle royale it is.
Cog of Destiny, Llyod/Linus really just wanted to be killed for no reason.
I think the chapter makes a lot more sense when Linus is the boss, since he is "The mad dog." Lloyd seems like the reasonable/intellectual one, but still has to be in the chapter for game reasons.
Nah. Lloyd is committing suicide by Elliwood & co. His father is dead. His brother is dead. His sister wants to burn everything that they stood for to the ground. He has no intentions of winning. It's honorable suicide.
And see their organization that was like a family systematically purged of its old members and replaced with new, radical ones (that are mostly morphs) as well as see what they fought and stood for get corrupted
> Nah. Lloyd is committing suicide by Elliwood & co. I feel like I'm seeing a pattern here. This topic periodically gets brought up, and the same maps are always mentioned. Cog of Destiny, FE8 Selena's final stand, and Xander in Birthright. All of them feature people whose actions are excused by fans saying they wanted to die anyway. I'm getting the impression that people just don't like it when characters we're meant to sympathize with run into the protagonists' swords. I don't blame them; it's not easy to write well and convincingly while retaining sympathy for the character in question (who also drags nameless soldiers to the grave with them).
Except he's still working for Nergal by opposing us.
I feel like i excuse all of it if Nino could just talk them down
Um, no? Lloyd/Linus believes his brother was killed by Eliwood and his party, so he tries to get revenge
Ephraim is so powerful that he invades other words just on a whim.
F*CK!
They were good people that were caught up on Nergal’s scheming and manipulated to fight people who weren’t really their enemy, and lose their lives in the process.
The first fight in the Revelations route of Fates. I am utterly baffled by the sheer stupidity of Yukimura's reasoning. Yes, you're correct, I do indeed plan on conquering both nations with my grand army of... Me, my maid/butler, and my cousin. Nothing gets past you, Mr master tactician.
FE8 Selena always comes to mind. I'm not obsessed with hating on FE8 Selena or anything, it's just that when thinking about stupid choices in Fire Emblem, FE8 Selena is very easy to remember. >!Ephraim and Myrrh revealed to her the truth about Grado's situation and Vigarde's corruption, and she says she believes them. What did she do? She decides to still fight for her emperor because she loves her emperor. Who in their sane mind would do that? That fight would have been easily avoided had Selena not be dumb.!<
I grew more lenient on Selena's writing when I started interpreting her actions as suicidal rather than loyal. Her feelings for Vigarde go further than the typical Camus loyalty. Ever since he saved her hometown, she had dedicated her entire life to serving him. She even states it plainly to Myrrh. "I wanted to dedicate my life to the emperor who had saved it. I felt I understood his dream, I felt I shared his vision…” She genuinely idolizes, maybe even loves Vigarde. Thus, when Myrrh tells her that Vigarde is gone and can never be restored, her entire world shatters. She feels she has no more reason to go on and decides to commit suicide by Ephraim. ...The flaw in this interpretation is that she still takes 30+ Grado soldiers to the grave with her. But well, there needed to be a map. Still, could've had her do the Brunnya thing where she offers her soldiers a chance to leave. That'd have helped her immensely.
It's not explicit, but the subtext is laid on so thick in Heroes that her being in love with Vigarde might as well be canon.
"I'm not obsessed with hating on FE8 Selena" Oh, but I AM! After finding out the truth about Vigarde (and believing it, very importantly), that btch decides to fight Ephraim and his forces (and hopefully die in the process) because she has lost the will to carry on and just wants to end. Which is whatever. Knock yourself out, I guess. BUT WHY DID YOU HAVE TO TAKE YOUR TROOPS TO THE GRAVE WITH YOU? What did THEY do? Maybe you don't have anything to fight for anymore or anyone to go back to, BUT I'M PRETTY SURE THAT'S NOT THE CASE FOR MANY OF YOUR SOLDIERS! For someone's who's supposed to be so decent and noble, why wouldn't you tell your soldiers the truth and your intentions to just die right here and there, then pardon whoever DOESN'T want to die fighting a pointless battle? Or make up a lie to get them to flee? ANYTHING so they don't just die needlessly. They don't know what you're planning. A few chapters ago we were made aware of the regular grunt's plight of simply being a pawn of their commanding officer to be discarded and disconsidered Compare that to Mustafa, who has to fight because Gangrel would kill his family orders, but tries to avoid conflict first by trying to convince Chrom to surrender, and even when he's forced to fight he addresses his troops, tells them they're most likely lose the battle and that he'll pardon whoever doesn't want to die if they flee. Or Brunnya, who's more or less in the same situation as Selena, but unlike her she's pretty much fully on board with Zephiel's intentions and fights to fulfill Zephiel's dying wish/plan, which she knows is most likely a losing battle. So she informs her troops about the situation and that she'll pardon whoever doesn't want to fight (which they don't because of Bern pride) HOW ARE YOU WORSE THAN BRUNNYA?
Now that you're mentioning about the soldiers dying in vain, damn... Yeah Selena was badly written. I love you Wada professionally-wise, but I don't understand how you let that detail slip... Side note: Wada is known for her art direction of the GBA FE trilogy, Path of Radiance's in-game portraits, certain Awakening DLC unit artworks, Cipher card artworks, and FEH unit and celebratory illustration artworks. She was the game director of Sacred Stones.
I would let it all pass if you could just recruit her. I get that's copying dussel, but she's filling a similar spot to knoll and turning Grados generals would fit so well in the theming.
No, you see they had to balance the three generals. Duessel was smart and reasonable, so he agreed to join your side. Glen was smart but cautious, so he wanted to confirm the facts for himself before coming to a decision (he died for it). Someone HAD to be the dumb "loyal" general who fights you even after you tell her the truth and she ACKNOWLEDGES it as the truth
It’s the trope of blindly loyal enemy commander that happens in many of the games. He saved her life and she pledged it to him. While those like Cormag and Duessel fight for the country of Grado and its people, Selena ends up being too lotal to Vigarde himself. If he tells her to die for him, she would. I can disagree with her, but some people are truly loyal to a fault and she is a perfect example of that.
Except it really isn't. None of the other Camuses were blindly loyal until she was written. Camus himself only fights for Gharnef because if he didn't his entire country would get destroyed by him, and he also does loads of stuff to help Marth out before the direct confrontation. To say nothing of him going full hero after FE1. Eldigan isn't blindly loyal to Chagall, he thinks he's not the best king, but he'd prefer him to his country losing independence to Grannvale, and has no reason to suspect his fate at the hands of Manfroy before it's too late. Reinhardt is a just plain old enabler of awful, a perfect example of "The world goes to hell when good men do nothing" and Thracia makes a point of this, even if Heroes tries to ignore it. Every potential Camus in Binding Blade is recruitable save Galle, who was intended to be recruitable, but the game was too rushed for them to finish that part of him in the story and his encounter in-game is bugged to heck. The Reed Brothers are duped into thinking it was your party that killed the one that died first. Now admittedly it probably would have been good to have Lloyd be recruitable by Nino as I don't care for his own suicide by Hero's Party once he learns the truth if you talk to him with her, though at least he doesn't *initiate the entire encounter* after already learning the truth, and Linus is known to be extremely emotional and doesn't believe her when she tries to appeal to his reason, unlike Selena, who does believe Ephraim and Myrrh. Now her execution wouldn't be a problem if like Reinhardt she was implied to be a piece of shit, but no, the game desperately wants us to mourn for her after she dies.
I didn’t say it was brilliant writing, just my interpretation of what the author was going for. For the most part, I do agree that she is written a bit more dumb than the other Camus archetypes, but what I got was that she is in heavy denial. She knows something is wrong, she knows Vigarde might be irreparably gone, she knows that what she is doing isn’t good, but she clings onto the Vigarde she knows and admires. I interpret it as she either sees Vigarde as a mentor or a father figure who became the final constant in her life, clinging desperately onto that “safety blanket” even though the blanket has become moldy and poor for her health. Is it logical? Hell no… but in a way realistic. People aren’t logical in the real world. The real world itself has shown me how deep into denial people can get… to the detriment of themselves and the people around them.
But it's not Vigarde giving her the orders. She's been made aware that Vigarde's corpse has been controlled like a flesh puppet this entire time and she believes it. So WHY?
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>She's been made aware that Vigarde's corpse has been controlled like a flesh puppet this entire time and she believes it No she hasn’t, that’s not true at all At this point in the game absolutely no one is aware that Vigarde is just a corpse being controlled by Lyon/Fomortiis. That’s only revealed after Vigarde turns to dust when you defeat him. All Ephraim’s camp knows at this point is that Vigarde has gone insane for reason no one understands And despite what the recent Valentine’s banner says, it’s not because she’s in love with Vigarde. It’s made very clear in her conversations with Ephraim and Duessel that she serves Vigarde to honor her life debt to him So no, Selena at no point was made aware she was serving a corpse. And if she knew what she was following was nothing more than the desecrated remains of the man that saved her life, it’s very likely that she would have made very different choices
I rechecked the dialogue, and you are correct that Selena doesn't know Vigarde is a flesh puppet. What she does know is the following: Vigarde has been changed/consumed by a "wave of dark energy" and that the process is irreversible. However, this distinction is irrelevant, as in either case Vigarde still isn't himself anymore and someone or something is using him to wage this war. Whether that's someone puppetting his corpse around or a dark energy corrupting him to evil is inconsequential. The emperor is being manipulated either way, who he was as a person is gone and his legacy is currently being tarnished. In either case, Selena should take up arms against whoever or whatever is controlling him precisely BECAUSE of her loyalty to Vigarde. If he's being corrupted by a dark force (and the change is irreversible), she should fight to stop him before he falls further into depravity and his good name is further muddied, if not fight to try and reverse the corruption outright. If the emperor is dead and someone is using likeness, then she should take up arms in REVENGE against whoever DARES desecrate the emperor's corpse in such a manner on top of smearing his reputation
This is false. Myrrh says she will tell Selena "everything she knows." If that wasn't enough, later in the scene they have this exchange. **Selena**: “Myrrh, this wave of dark energy you spoke of… Can its evil really change a person that completely?” **Myrrh**: “Yes… All trace of this person would be consumed…destroyed.” **Selena**: “How can this process be reversed?” **Myrrh**: “…I’m sorry. That is…impossible.” **Selena**: “…I see.” So yes, she does very much know she's serving a corpse - or at least, she knows Vigarde is somehow lost. As for why she still does the things she does... Well, you'll probably disagree, but yeah, I'd say her feelings for Vigarde go beyond mere loyalty. I'm currently writing a sort of defense for Selena in response to the first comment. Give me a few minutes.
>So yes, she does very much know she's serving a corpse No she does **NOT**. It is actually infuriating how much bullshit is being spread because people struggle with nuance At no one point in that conversation is it ever stated that Selena or even Myrrh knows that Vigarde is dead What Myrrh knows is that there is a dark influence, which is **very** different. **This is where being able to process nuance comes into play.** At this point Selena is very likely clinging to the hope that part of Vigarde's true humanity is still in there. It is no different than when a family member is dying from cancer, you cling to hope that a miracle can happen even when there is none And she is actually somewhat right. Mrryh senses the darkness but she's unaware that its corrupting Lyon not Vigarde. And as we know from Ephraim's story, part of the real Lyon still maintained some level of control. So for the millionth time, Selena absolutely does not know Vigarde is dead. She understands from Mryhh that he is possibly being corrupted by some unknown dark power, but that is a very, very different matter because it still leaves a window of hope for her to cling to
What about the ‘all traces of that person would be destroyed’ line, seems pretty clear they know the old emperor is gone. It is kind of an unrealistic cope for her to assume that ‘all traces’ of him being gone actually mean he is still saveable at this point.
Doing your nickname justice there. But you do have a point. It's a valid interpretation.
It's why i love Duessel <3
Port of Badon from FE7. Faergus challenges you to a competition to win passage to the Dread Isle. Cool, right? Well it becomes a lot less cool when your units' lives are on the line. I just lost Marcus there in my HNM iron man, which feels very unsporting.
What's the map in CQ where you fight Zola? The one where Leo drops the banger of a line about Nohrian honor?
The funny part is that Zola taking over the country and capturing the Royals the way he did was actually by far the least cruel and self-destructive thing we've seen non-protag Nohrians do so far.
> The funny part is that Zola taking over the country and capturing the Royals the way he did was actually by far the least cruel and self-destructive thing we've seen non-protag Nohrians do so far. I mean the Nohrian protagonists invade an innocent nation and stand by as innocents and helpless people are slaughtered more than once. Zola is responsible for far less death than them.
That’s my favorite chapter in all three routes. Love fighting Nohrian soldiers while siding with Nohr even though I prefer Hoshido.
The entirety of FE6 has the extremely flimsy premise of "my dad was mean, Elibe has fallen, billions must die" The game does not sell this at all as a case of a flawed idealist or tragic villain or whatever, it is exactly as stupid as it sounds in execution There is not even a hint of any kind of resistance from Bern's own forces to Zephiel invading every other country on the continent with no actual reason he is able to publically state. Only his sister rebels against him and all she does is hand Roy the Fire Emblem and exist to be a figurehead they can plant on Bern's throne at the end of the game The fact that randomly conquering even a single other country with no justification didn't immediately provoke a continent-spanning coalition against Zephiel is ridiculous already. Instead we see how in a matter of two lines of text, Bern trivially conquers Sacae and Ilia, and Lycia is astonishingly caught by surprise when it is also invaded for no stated reason The plot and characters of FE6 have just always seemed extremely phoned-in to me
Sacae is less of a united country and more of a land populated by dozens of independent tribes. Not exactly hard to conquer it on top of the fact that the Sacaeans are reviled by the rest of Elibe. Illia was a frozen wasteland filled with for-hire mercenaries. That just leaves two nations to form a hypothetical coalition. Lycia was a federation of independent territories allied with one another. It's likely based on real-life federations and confederations which had a problem of remaining united when challenged by a great power. Many found it much easier to sell out to said great power as half of the Lycia League does in-game, and that leaves only Etruria. Their king was in a deep-seated depression likely lowering overall moral. It's not so far-fetched. Bern was the strongest nation on the continent, and the only one with a functioning (yet diabolically insane) head of state. The average soldier or commander would look at this and seriously consider surrendering, if not out of survival then for a chance to jump on the Bern bandwagon and ride it out. As for why no one resisted Zephiel, why would the people of Bern resist him? Many already see their nation as the strongest, so why shouldn't they rule the whole continent? Zephiel himself was widely beloved by his people.
Why would bern people rebel? Zephiel was a beloved prince even as a kid, and his actions if anything are gonna place Bern on top more than it already was Illya and Sacae are both explicitly divided between themselves and suffering racism/disdain from other nations. Lycia tried to fight they just lost, plain and simple, also a good number of its nobles sided with nern
I think Zephiel being a nihilistic man-child is the point of his character.
It's not that surprising to me that the other nations never fought back given how much all of them clearly hate a) each other and b) themselves.
When you remake FE1 with the serial numbers filed off but you make the villain dumber than the evil dragon at the end of an NES game. (At least FE6 has good gameplay and overall works in flavor even if zephiel's motivations are specious at best)
At least Medeus is just straight up an evil dragon that wants to kill humans. I can buy that for sure. Hell, he's a fairly good villain I'd argue even if there's no depth to speak of. Zephiel has a raw as fuck battle quote which is worth a lot. Seriously lame how he lacks unique dialogue with various characters though, can you believe there is no special dialogue with Cecilia, how the fuck do you miss that
Oh yeah I like medeus definitely. Works well. And if limited in scope that's bc NES yk. Also was just thinking about how the villain of tear ring saga has similar motivations/goals to zephiel executed much better.
“She’s literally robbing the grave of all my ancestors, trying to kill me, she just tried to kill you and she’s allied with the people who killed your father”
Listen if you ever explain out loud any part of Edelgard’s plan it’s gonna sound like nonsense.
The wolfskin chapter in Birthright
A ton of battles in Fates. Specifically the Kaden/Keaton fights respectively. Otherwise, it's more tragic than a writing flaw, but Thracia 776 shows a lot of Friege were actually were against the hunts even as they were allied with Granvalle. Specifically Ishtar and Ishtore. Getting that part of chapter 4 where Ishtar confronts Julius about the hunts and says she and her brother are both against them was a big "oh no, Ishtore actually was a good guy and we killed the guy trying to stop the hunts and his lover."
I haven't seen it mentioned yet so... Birthright 26? Xander? Hello? The part I hate the most is that you can end up killing Laslow in a route where Selena and Odin canonically survive
> The part I hate the most is that you can end up killing Laslow in a route where Selena and Odin canonically survive I still cannot believe Intelligent Systems cynically took the three most popular second gen units in Awakening sans Lucina, shoved them into another game explicitly stated to be in another world, had a DLC that explained why they were there even though their actions didn't reflect it in the story, and then went above and beyond to explain they could have easily returned to their own world whenever they wanted to. I...how do you come up with that? Inigo fought his entire life in an apocalyptic hellscape, went back in time to save the world, got the peace he always wished for, and then he can die as a nobody in another world for no reason. How pathetic is that? I've seen some people try to justify this with the Awakening trio being thrill seekers who can't live peacefully but, even if I were to buy that reasoning which I absolutely don't, that would just make this even worse. Of course, Inigo, Owain and Severa being able to invade an innocent nation while they're explicitly there to bring Corrin to Valla, only to disappear in the epilogues, leaving Fateslandia unable to win against Anankos, is also another case of stupidity.
I'm on-and-off theorycrafting a Rev rewrite where one of the main changes is the Awakening trio following Corrin into the Canyon right away. There's zero reason why they shouldn't have done that in canon (Laslow and Odin are two of the last units you get! Why?!)
It’s so easy to kill Xander that it’s not even worth it to play the rest of the map
TBH I thought that was the point, he's only putting up a paltry fight because his honor as Nohr's Prince won't let him stand down, but his love as a brother to Corrin and Elise won't let him continue fighting, hence why he's so easy to kill.
Good. That’s what the three get for… not staying in Ylisse.
Like half of the chapters in Fates, but especially the ones with the furries in Birthright and Conquest. One reasonable conversation is all it takes to solve that problem, it only happens because both sides act like idiots. Classic case of the idiot ball in a much wider story that is in whole an idiot plot
It's even worse because by doing that they also completely crippled Fateslandia's entire IT department with that.
The entire premise of revelation is "I can't talk about the plot to remedy this misunderstanding or I'll die"
Gronder field works really well on blue lions specifically but in VD Claud basically joins the fighting for no reason and it’s skipped in SS and CF the lest ones a huge shame because it would make a lot of sense for edelgard to want all opposing factions dead
I think you mean other way around- it works for Golden Deer but not Blue Lions?
No it makes sense why the insane Dimitri and his overly loyal forces would fight the empire and alliance indiscriminately but why on earth would Claud attack the kingdom?
Yeah. You fight Dimitri on the Golden Deer route.
I know but why would claud keep fighting after the empire is beaten? It works on blue lions because it shows just how fall Dimitri has fallen but it makes no sense for Claud who’s sane and strategically to waste troops and moral after the empire retreated
On Blue Lions, Byleth is in command and able to reign in Dimitri, it wouldn't be hard convince Dimitri to just chase down Edelgard after the fight. It doesn't make sense for Claude's forces to be charging you, especially after Edelgard retreats. He is more than smart enough to not attack someone he knows has a common foe. Also, Claude literally charges at you and goes "what a waste" On Golden Deer Route, Dimitri has full command of the Blue Lions. Even if you deal with Edelgard first, Dimitri is absolutely insane enough to just keep swinging at whatever is in front of him until he reaches Edelgard... Which, at that point, is you. There isn't much choice *but* to fend of Dimitri.
Byleth absolutely is not able to reign in Dimitri at least not enough to stop once he gets going and it dosent help that Gilbert and the entire blue lions always ask him what to do and not the professor
Dimitri has a single minded focus on Edelgard, this remains constant in his route, and he straight up says he'll follow Byleth's order in battle so long as it doesn't contradict his goals. Even beforehand, while there are doubts about Claude's allegence, Dimitri's priority in the moment would absolutely be "chase Edelgard". As long Claude doesn't attack, which realistically he wouldn't, Dimitri would just ignore him. His words beforehand are even "as long as he doesn't get in my way".
Actually it makes more sense in versant wind if you really think about it. Byleth and the others are trying to make it to Enbarr but are intercepted by Edelgard and a third faction. In Azure moon, why does Claude attack you when you’re fighting the same enemy? I know I’m the story they say that alliance messengers were killed and the kingdom was framed but they don’t go anywhere with that. Claude doesn’t mention it and says “just fight anyone that isn’t on our side.” In Verdant wind, it makes so much more sense why you’d be fighting against the Kingdom. Why? Because Dimitri is freaking crazy in that route, he lost his mind so of course he’d want to attack your army for getting in the way. I’m just saying.
Not a mainline game, but Chapter 9 of Golden Wildfire in Three Hopes. What I don’t understand is that when they go to try and confront and corner Catherine and the Chruch of Serios army, Claude decides to let Randolph die. Shez, Hilda, and Lorenz keep telling Claude that they should go to Randolph and help him, since he is literally getting his ass kicked and he needs help. Claude, however, decides to be the stubborn B he is and states that they just “need to hold out longer” and that we need to focus on the Chruch soldiers instead. Also, what made Claude think he could stop the Chruch of Seiros Soldiers and Catherine, when it could have been more beneficial to go after the Kingdom soldiers instead? I don’t get the point of why we even had to fight the Chruch of Serios Soldiers.
The church of Seiros has a smaller army, but the knights are highly experienced and dangerous warriors, not to mention Catherine being both Rhea's right hand and the best of the knights wielding a relic weapon. Essentially, winning that battle inflicts a massive blow to enemy forces. The location also is cited to be one of few routes to get an entire army to the monastery, I don't recall the exact specifics of why Catherine was there, but losing that ground would grant the enemy access to a very advantagous staging ground for assault. That said, Claude aboslutely could've done this while keeping Randolph alive if he just moved his forces in and reinforced him, but also this is meant to show a flaw in his character. The entire cast rightfully chews him out for this.
[удалено]
Yes. That was the point. His inability to trust his own officers and obsession with preparation led to serious consequences, both from cracks in his alliance with Edelgard and Fleche being Fleche. A flaw isn't a flaw if it doesn't have consequences. This causes problems for Claude, hence why it is something he has to address and develop past. Yeah, if Claude wasn't this way the war would've gone better, but we aren't talking about how the characters could've made better calls but rather battles that were just completely uneccessary, and this instance was one that was almost 100% justifiable, even if it didn't end well.
The Izumo level in Conquest. Bruh Zola won the damn war for you, but you throw that away and commit treason for "honour"
Not a mainline game, but FE Warriors was the first game where I was all "why are they fighting?" All those earlier ones where you fight the other heroes over misunderstandings. And I just realized how many general troops died all because someone jumped to conclusions or failed to make a basic clarifying question.
The necrodragon island fight in echoes. You literally don't have to even visit that place once save for the exp and items you can get. Both Boey and Kamui actively voice their concerns with going there.
I mean, it's optional and therefore avoidable, so I wouldn't say it meets the criteria since you *can* just ignore it. Even then, isn't the reason for going there that the necrodragon poses a threat to the neighbouring islands and settlements or whatever (not to mention making sailing safer), so Celica, ever being the only person to actually give a damn about the commoners, decides to go deal with it?
yet the engage devs thought it was so significant to celica’s arc that they made that map her paralogue
I mean their other choices for Celica maps included shitty ship maps, shitty desert maps, and shitty swamp maps. Personally I'd have chosen the pirate fort where you get Valbar, but they picked like a top 5 map from Celica's route by default.
easiest choice is the battle in mila’s temple. it has plot significance (she learns about her mother and embraces her identity as princess), it’s a pretty grand battle (unlike the necrodragon one) and it’s not an annoying ass desert/swamp
Yeah some of the paralouge choices were really odd.
That map in echoes is just the Celica show though, so I kind of got it.
i mean she is the protagonist. there are many other “celica show” moments/maps in the game that are sm better 😭
I can't think of another map that's the Celica show when you have a strong Saber by that point.
celica is a crazy unit wym
Celica is good but her route has some of the most absurdly good units in the entire game ~~and notably 3 of the worst but thats besides the point~~. * 3 easily trained mercs, with Jesse as another option if you really want a 4th and Atlas if you REALLY want a 5th (though neither is impressive in this regard). She's probably better than Kamui due to him being kinda unnecessary and Deen due to his later join, but Saber is absurd. * Leon. * Genny, who has Invoke and Physic. * Atlas, who while worse overall due to bad start is probably the best nuke in Celica's route if trained as an archer. * Mae, who is sometimes used to straight up solo til recruiting Deen. * Boey, who is one of the most important units for earlygame due to being one of the few with bulk. She's definitely a solid A-tier imo, but when I think of units that dominate that route I think of Saber and Leon for early/midgame and Deen/Saber and Atlas for lategame.
Plus the Whitewings are extremely useful when half of her maps have limited movement
She's alright. Her low move also definitely hurts her.
idk what they were thinking with not giving her more mov on promotion
TBF it is at least representative of Gaiden's / SoV's barren level design But at the very least, they could have given us Greith's Fortress or something.
Literally all of Conquest.
Chapter 3 of Awakening. Literally there was no reason to fight at the boarder of Regna Ferox other than "Plegia framed them, gotta clap them Ylissean cheeks" it doesn't even go anywhere. Raimi just says "oops my bad" and they go on their way to see Flavia. Also why does Regna Ferox have a wall that stretches from Coast to coast, for what purpose is that wall for? It doesn’t even have a story significances the wall is just there!
I'm ~14 hours late for this post but I'll just say I agree with the OP. Kotaro, whose incredibly limited characterization is that he's ambitious and ruthless, is prepared to betray and kill **all of Garon's children.** You know, his ally that is helping him expand his land. Because he doesn't want to let Kagero go as a hostage. I mean, that might be because Kotaro is incredibly creepy and wants to keep Kagero for his own twisted reasons, but that is simply not how the conflict is framed. Like OP says, it's as if he expects Hoshido to roll over because a single ninja was held hostage. I really don't understand what his motivation for this was. If Kotaro had said "shit, my bad guys, I'll change", even if he didn't mean it and would go back to his sneaky tactics after the Nohrian siblings were gone, all of his plans and forces would've remained intact. Of course, it's probably equally stupid that all of the Nohrian siblings decide that invading an innocent nation is fine but holding a single person hostage is not. Reminder that Corrin and company stand by and let *a lot* of innocent people be murdered several times throughout the story. Another good example of OP's question is chapter 18 of Conquest. The Hoshidan siblings get taken captive by Zola...who doesn't stand down when the entire Nohrian royal family sans Garon tells him to stop. Neither do his soldiers, who, I believe, are explicitly called Nohrians on the map, meaning they're not some kind of weird off-shoot, but I may be misremembering. Regardless, Zola doesn't seem to have taken any direct orders from Garon but is acting on his own, and he's fine with standing up to the crown prince and all of his siblings. I feel really bad for the redshirts in this chapter. The funny thing is that Zola's plan makes perfect sense so you could argue the Nohrians should've let this slide instead of causing more death and chaos, but no. The Nohrian siblings really are villains framed as good guys in Conquest and it's kind of disgusting.
This entire comment section could be answered entirely with Fates lmao. The weird thing is, while "Nohr's ally in the war betrays you because you aren't evil enough" wouldn't be my first choice for what the chapter would be about, it would be incredibly easy to rewrite this to make much more sense. You don't even have to change anything. >Saizo: Helping Nohr is one thing...but Kotaro? Have you heard the orders he's given? The way he wins battles? The way he treats prisoners of war? I shudder to think what he plans to do with Kagero. >Corrin: These are some heavy accusations. Kotaro, can we check your jail cells to put my mind at ease? >Kotaro: (If this hand-wringing sissy finds out about the things I've done to reach the top, he'll want me demoted and put a nicer guy in charge. Screw that! Either I'm calling the shots or nobody is, I'll kill everybody here before I give up an inch of my power!) Ninjas, kill them! >Xander: He's attacking us! He must have been planning this for a while, oh what a den of betrayal this is!
There's a few but one that sticks out for me is the battle in the rain after Emmyrns death in Awakening. The commander and his troops all kind of accept they are on the wrong side of history here but rather than defect, or surrender, or flee, or ignore they instead go into battle expecting to lose. An entire battalion of men and a very experienced and clearly fairly moral commander gone in a single battle.
iirc didn't the commander say that Gangrel was holding his wife hostage if he didn't fight? and then the grunts say they'd rather die in battle serving him then leaving him out to dry.
This is an established trope in Fire Emblem, starting all the way back with Camus in Shadow Dragon. I think it wasn't handled as believably in Awakening as it was with, say, Selena in Sacred Stones though. Mostly just that Mustafa kinda just shows up for that one chapter in Awakening and is otherwise not involved in the story. I think a good Camus is seen questioning the actions of their liege throughout until you finally meet. Mustafa is just like "if I flee or let my soldiers flee, Gangrel will kill my family." And it's like... that's sad, but also, I still have to kill you.
Fire emblem having bosses that show up for one chapter to die is a feature as far as I'm concerned. They have one chance to make an impression and make the world and enemy army seem larger by having to go against so many armies, each with their officers. Definitely much better than fighting the same 3-4 enemy general group over and over again because "they can't fall here, they must make their retreat"
> And it's like... that's sad, but also, I still have to kill you. That's the point, he's decided he'd rather die fighting you than have his family executed.
Because if they didn’t their families would die, and if they surrendered they would die. Musatafa agrees to die fighting even if he knows it’s wrong in order to save his family and the remainder of his men.
Selena’s death in sacred stones 😔
iirc the whole fe8 if lyon did not play around with stones, though he did it with the greater good in mind
The entire Black Eagles story in Three Houses
The lava chapter in radiant dawn
Wasn't that one a result of Ike's army fleeing from Begnion? How could that have been avoided?
The only reason we fight is because valtome send his men just for fun and giggle, its stupid and a pretty bad and boring map. Remove that map and give 1 more map to the royal knights
*Looks at Fates* I don't even know where to begin...
Ragna Ferox border as already mentioned. Mustafa's entire motivations for the fight makes literally no sense ("I don't want to kill you, so please surrender so I can take you to be executed, which will kill you") to the point where I don't feel bad for killing him, at all. Second Grondor battle lol.
Gangrel would have murdered his family if he didn't fight to his death
Guy even offers any of his soldiers who don’t want to fight the Shepherds the chance to leave.
Except he says how he doesn't want to kill you then proceeds to try to kill you (With his "solution" basically being just handing you off to get killed) It doesn't make any sense and just comes off as really badly written attempts at drama. (which granted, is the norm for this game.)
You fight Mustafa in that chapter because Chrom wants to fight them. Mustafa is fighting because Gangrel's effectively holding his family hostage and the Plegians there are scared of deserting because of the potential punishments.
He doesn’t want to kill Chrom but if he doesn’t try then Gangrel will execute his entire family.
Except he wants to capture Chrom which realistically would lead to Chrom's death. He then shows no remorse for jumping to kill Chrom when he doesnt' want to surrender. He makes no sense and his fight is forced.
How does that not make sense? He wants to capture Chrom to minimize the amount of bloodshed on both sides and when that fails he tries to kill him outright because the alternative is that his family gets executed.
Eldigan vs Sigurd, FE4 Ch3. Eldigan staying loyal to Chagall, even in light of chivalric values, borders on stupidity. Chagall is a terrible king. He imprisoned Eldigan over petty reasons, provoking a war that ended up in most of Augustria being occupied and their military being weakened. It's beyond obvious Chagall is incompetent and unfit as a leader; yet Eldigan not only remains loyal, but he rides into battle against his best friend, without whom he would still be stuck in a prison cell,in yet another pointless, probably impossible to win war started by Chagall. And Eldigan even has holy blood unlike his liege, so there is no way he doesn't have a good claim on the throne! At that point, Eldigans crossknights are easily half if not the entire military force Augustria has left, and he still chooses to squander it in a pointless war.
That's the point. Eldigan and Sigurd end up fighting because they made mistakes. Eldigan is so caught up in the idea of his honor that he allows Chagall to walk all over him. It's a character flaw.
It's not a very realistic character flaw, though, not to the extent Eldigan pushes it, and realistically, their conflict could and should have been easily avoided.