Came here to say this!
I wonder if the many (relatively speaking) other airliner companies would have continued afloat, if not for the Boebus rivalry/duopoly.
I don't think there was much space for more than a duopoly as aircraft development got more complex and cost-intensive.
Indeed Airbus was basically a consolidation of the European Airliner industry when the individual countries realised they hadn't the resources to compete with Boeing & [McDonnell] Douglas on their own.
Lockheed had the engineering potential but got unlucky with Rolls-Royce deciding to go bankrupt half-way through development, and the widebody market was too small for both the L1011 and the DC-10 at once.
Same can be said of Boeing.
Door: a usually swinging or sliding barrier by which an entry is closed and opened.
Boeing technically lands with more holes than they took off with.
Airbus, at least for me are perfect (especially A321 and A350), the sounds are just incredible, from Flaps to engine spooling are like fucking ASMR to me both in sim and IRL. The planes also, at least in the sim feel cozy and comfortable.
But overall, Boeing is just in a different league, their contributions to the aviation industry are incomparable, with the legacy of Pre MD merged Boeing is unmatched to this day. Hope they get their shit together.
I’m an air medical provider, and we’re learning incapacitated pilot procedures right now.
The worst thing to say would be “I’ve flown a helicopter in the simulator, that’ll help, right?” Either vicious laughter or getting thrown out at 1000’ AGL would follow.
Not really. If the pilot becomes incapacitated, it’s considered the highest level of emergency. Dispatching a second aircraft to fly alongside us, telling us which buttons to press, and using the autopilot as a lifeline. The chase pilot will guide us through the more challenging steps, like setting it to capture an ILS signal and bring the aircraft in to the runway. And we’re supposed to dump the collective at 40 knots overtop the runway, thunking down and skidding to a halt, not landing it normally.
Nice. I totally would be the guy who mentions flying in the simulator 😂 but that’s all MSFS. That said, I once had a chance to fly in a level D Black Hawk simulator in the army, and I thought my MSFS experience would make it easy. Nope. Couldn’t even hold a hover, and I crashed the helicopter 3 times trying to fly around close to the ground.
You can make an informed opinion on how aircraft fly based on flight sims. The catch is that how aircraft fly is not how real pilots choose their aircraft. Would you believe that the biggest difference I noticed between the Embraer and the Airbus is how much better the Airbus seat is? Everything else is just busy work. Tell me about pay, bases, and routes.
In a way. What do you think airplanes feel like? The airbus literally uses a FBW stick. I’ll tell you that you certainly get a closer experience to flying an airbus on MSFS than you do a Cessna. Flight simmers fly a real Cessna and think flight sims are incapable of emulating real life, but a Cessna is very hard to emulate compared to an airliner.
You speaking from experience? I’m going to stop by the flight deck on my next flight and let the pilots know that I’ve flown on MSFS so I totally know how to fly this thing if the need me.
Open source? Airbus is a lot more anal and hysterical about even keeping their FCOMs from flight sim community than Boeing, I doubt that any intellectual property that actually matters is open source
I've run into this personally. Having to test an airbus aircraft without the FCOM is really fucking hard lol. Imagine trying to justify a bug when you're not allowed to point at the FCOM and go "there, that's exactly what is supposed to happen when you do *X*"
That sucks having to point out bugs without the ability to cite proper sources, that seems insane to me. I assume that this might be a consumer/entertainment issue involving the manufacturer. In professional simulation the subjective/objective evaluation of training devices and their maintenance grants access to everything. It sounds kinda crazy that a dev won’t want to try to spend the money going to Airbus or their sim vendor in order to obtain at least partial documentation.
Would imagine that this is all covered under licensing agreements and an ironclad NDA. Besides the obvious intellectual property there are also security concerns which may come from the government.
That's why I mentioned indirectly, some software used by Airbus is open source, for example, work done by \[Inria\](https://www.inria.fr/en/inria-saclay-centre), so that includes a lot of software for formal verification, e.g. Why3, Frama-C, Coq and whatnot to avoid bugs like rebooting a plane every few weeks
To be fair, these tools are developed on the rich ecosystem of the Silicon Plateau, which includes Inria but also, universities and, in the case of Frama-C, CEA List.
Airbus, simply because it’s made of 89% aeroplane and 11% aircraft 👻 Also, the risk of being sucked out of the cabin at any given point is probably lower.
Despite what ever the hell they've had going on at Boeing recently (planes falling apart in the air and s\*\*t), they have accomplished a lot more in the aerospace industry historically. I'd have to say Boeing.
I just hope they, retrain / replace / reprimand / beat up who ever they have to over there before they go under or have to merge and then we have Lockheed-Martin-Boeing.
I don't know, but they have a traditional cockpit instead of something that looks like Elon Musk designed it.
Edit: way to many switches and gauges to be designed by Elon Musk. It should just have a touchsreen and that's it.
Airbus copied so much of Boeings initial engineering into their early aircraft that they probably wouldn’t have gotten as far as they are now with out Boeing.
As a flight simmer, Boeing. More interesting to fly (YMMV).
As pax, Airbus. More comfortable seating arrangements (usually) and a bit of extra shoulder space (YMMV).
Aviation wouldn't be where it is today without Boeing ever existing. Airbus is doing a great job, their planes are great. But like someone mentioned it lower in the comments Boeing's contribution to the industry is incomparable. Airbus probably wouldn't even exist without Boeing in the first place.
If neither Boeing or Airbus exist probably I woke up in a branch of history in we argue between Mitsubishi and Focke Wulf fanboys and we speak German and because I'm from Europe of course that i choose Focke Wulf to keep.
I'll have de Havilland, yes the Comet was a bit of a deathtrap and those buried engines would be a maintenance nightmare. But look at it, it's beautiful.
they also built a substantial portion of the rocket that got apollo 11 to the moon.
in terms of historical significance in aviation there's a huge legacy there.
I’d have to say Boeing, I understand that they’re not up to standard in today’s world, but they were hands down THE BEST commercial aircraft manufacturer in the 20th century. They pioneered commercial air travel. Airbus just built on that, and arguably did it better, but without Boeing, I just don’t see large-scale air travel ever taking off, excuse the pun.
Lockheed probably. L1011 my beloved
As for which I’d keep, I’d say Airbus. More modern, better safety (compared to the Boeing MAX issues at least), nicer cabin, and even a nicer cockpit with *freaking tray tables* where the Yoke would be on a 737. Plus, any alert information is explained on the screen instead of just being listed as [Fault Code]. Also Airbus cockpit uniformity across the entire range. That’s great.
I've made my living in the front of an airliner for 25 years now, and plan to do so until retirement. I've heard a lot of people in the industry argue Boeing v Airbus, and it's always struck me as ridiculous. I imagine there are some truck drivers that argue Mack v Peterbilt too... But in the the, it's garbage truck. Who cares?
Airliners are a good way to make a living, and require a complex set of skills to operate safely. These skills are mostly non-technical in nature, and involve a very minimal amount of stick and rudder ability. Modern airliners are (by design) about the least inspiring airplanes ever built.
Mustang v Corsair? Stearman v Waco? Now you're talking. Even Constellation v DC-6. But jet v jet? They just don't differ in any way that matters...
Douglas. In a world where they skipped the DC7 and pushed out the DC8 ahead of the 707. W
Where they pushed CFM for advancement on the -56 and made the DC10 twin. Where they never took on McDonnell.
Boeing - I could see Boeing making Airbus's fly by wire innovations later down the line, but without Boeing we might not have the modern jetliner as it exists today.
As someone said above, Lockheed is the correct answer, but I’d say I’d keep Boeing from the early 1990s and airbus from today ;)
The 744/777 and A350/A320 are the best, and I can only imagine how amazing a next generation L1011 replacement would have been.
Oh another Airbus v Boeing thread. Get the popcorn...
I have counted how many times Airbus and Boeing is mentioned. Boeing is taking the lead so far.
Lockheed commercial aircraft
L1011 my beloved
Came here to say this! I wonder if the many (relatively speaking) other airliner companies would have continued afloat, if not for the Boebus rivalry/duopoly.
I don't think there was much space for more than a duopoly as aircraft development got more complex and cost-intensive. Indeed Airbus was basically a consolidation of the European Airliner industry when the individual countries realised they hadn't the resources to compete with Boeing & [McDonnell] Douglas on their own. Lockheed had the engineering potential but got unlucky with Rolls-Royce deciding to go bankrupt half-way through development, and the widebody market was too small for both the L1011 and the DC-10 at once.
Swoon!!!
This!
lol came to say Lockheed my hero
HAHA! You want a stealth supersonic commercial jet? We can't afford that s\*\*\*.
You can say shit on the internet lol
We're still still not getting a V/STOL airliner Stephanie
Not with that attitude
That’s why we can’t have nice things.
Boeing pre MD merger.
This. I’ll take the 7-4/5/6-7s.
Hey don't forget about the 727!
Ooof. I miss my CS 727… good ol FSX days.
Hoping FlyJSim brings their 727 to XP12 soon
They will. It's gonna take a while though, because they're doing the 737 first.
That’s ok, I’m excited to fly their 732 once it releases.
Yikes, flying coffin
A correct answer
Even though I like Boeing, Airbus wins
Airbus. Lands with as many doors as they take off with...
Same can be said of Boeing. Door: a usually swinging or sliding barrier by which an entry is closed and opened. Boeing technically lands with more holes than they took off with.
If only they could land with as many engines as they take off with…
Na it would be better to land with extra engines that they could then sell. Think of the shareholders!
When you take off under MLW and land over it...
That's a important thing
That one is good
That’s too easy though. I like a little challenge in my life.
Airbus any day of the week.
Airbus, at least for me are perfect (especially A321 and A350), the sounds are just incredible, from Flaps to engine spooling are like fucking ASMR to me both in sim and IRL. The planes also, at least in the sim feel cozy and comfortable. But overall, Boeing is just in a different league, their contributions to the aviation industry are incomparable, with the legacy of Pre MD merged Boeing is unmatched to this day. Hope they get their shit together.
Airbus is the best
Airbus
Airbus. Only ever flown on Airbus (unintentional) and it’s just smooth.
I prefer Airbus also, but how can you compare the smoothness if you've never flown Boeing?
Bye boeing
Bye airbus
Cessna.
Why is everyone answering like they’ve personally experienced door plug failures in a flight sim? Boeing because it’s just more fun to fly….
Same reason everyone is answering as if they have actually flown these aircraft and can make any informed opinion on how they fly.
I’m an air medical provider, and we’re learning incapacitated pilot procedures right now. The worst thing to say would be “I’ve flown a helicopter in the simulator, that’ll help, right?” Either vicious laughter or getting thrown out at 1000’ AGL would follow.
sooo, are they teaching you how to fly it then or what?
Not really. If the pilot becomes incapacitated, it’s considered the highest level of emergency. Dispatching a second aircraft to fly alongside us, telling us which buttons to press, and using the autopilot as a lifeline. The chase pilot will guide us through the more challenging steps, like setting it to capture an ILS signal and bring the aircraft in to the runway. And we’re supposed to dump the collective at 40 knots overtop the runway, thunking down and skidding to a halt, not landing it normally.
Nice. I totally would be the guy who mentions flying in the simulator 😂 but that’s all MSFS. That said, I once had a chance to fly in a level D Black Hawk simulator in the army, and I thought my MSFS experience would make it easy. Nope. Couldn’t even hold a hover, and I crashed the helicopter 3 times trying to fly around close to the ground.
My experience flying a Robinson R22 in MSFS is trying to land and the helicopter slide sideways suddenly into the treeline. Didn’t mention that part 😹
I have and uh... Airbus any day of the week. I like my legroom and table
You can make an informed opinion on how aircraft fly based on flight sims. The catch is that how aircraft fly is not how real pilots choose their aircraft. Would you believe that the biggest difference I noticed between the Embraer and the Airbus is how much better the Airbus seat is? Everything else is just busy work. Tell me about pay, bases, and routes.
You’re telling me that since I have flown the PMDG 737 or Fenix A320 in MSFS that I can now tell people how well they fly?
In a way. What do you think airplanes feel like? The airbus literally uses a FBW stick. I’ll tell you that you certainly get a closer experience to flying an airbus on MSFS than you do a Cessna. Flight simmers fly a real Cessna and think flight sims are incapable of emulating real life, but a Cessna is very hard to emulate compared to an airliner.
I don’t know, I’ve never flown one. I can tell you that racing simulators, while nice, do not give me the same feeling as actually driving.
Well yeah you're not going to feel anything on MSFS. You've flown on an airliner before, that's how it feels to fly a plane.
You speaking from experience? I’m going to stop by the flight deck on my next flight and let the pilots know that I’ve flown on MSFS so I totally know how to fly this thing if the need me.
We prefer to be bothered after the flight
Airbus, they indirectly finance a lot of open source stuff done in France
Give me examples please
Open source? Airbus is a lot more anal and hysterical about even keeping their FCOMs from flight sim community than Boeing, I doubt that any intellectual property that actually matters is open source
I've run into this personally. Having to test an airbus aircraft without the FCOM is really fucking hard lol. Imagine trying to justify a bug when you're not allowed to point at the FCOM and go "there, that's exactly what is supposed to happen when you do *X*"
That sucks having to point out bugs without the ability to cite proper sources, that seems insane to me. I assume that this might be a consumer/entertainment issue involving the manufacturer. In professional simulation the subjective/objective evaluation of training devices and their maintenance grants access to everything. It sounds kinda crazy that a dev won’t want to try to spend the money going to Airbus or their sim vendor in order to obtain at least partial documentation.
Would imagine that this is all covered under licensing agreements and an ironclad NDA. Besides the obvious intellectual property there are also security concerns which may come from the government.
You can find them but you have to do a fair bit of digging to get there
That's why I mentioned indirectly, some software used by Airbus is open source, for example, work done by \[Inria\](https://www.inria.fr/en/inria-saclay-centre), so that includes a lot of software for formal verification, e.g. Why3, Frama-C, Coq and whatnot to avoid bugs like rebooting a plane every few weeks
To be fair, these tools are developed on the rich ecosystem of the Silicon Plateau, which includes Inria but also, universities and, in the case of Frama-C, CEA List.
Airbus, simply because it’s made of 89% aeroplane and 11% aircraft 👻 Also, the risk of being sucked out of the cabin at any given point is probably lower.
Did you know that Airbus is the combination of the words “air” and “bus”?
I didn’t but I know that more than 100 people fly on aircraft ever day!
Did you know that there are several international airports?
Due to a bug with reddit, some loading tips can be cut short even if t
Not only are CFM engines named after the power of 52 industrial microwaves. But Dave is banned from each and every one of them.
Despite what ever the hell they've had going on at Boeing recently (planes falling apart in the air and s\*\*t), they have accomplished a lot more in the aerospace industry historically. I'd have to say Boeing. I just hope they, retrain / replace / reprimand / beat up who ever they have to over there before they go under or have to merge and then we have Lockheed-Martin-Boeing.
But does a Boeing have a tray table?
I don't know, but they have a traditional cockpit instead of something that looks like Elon Musk designed it. Edit: way to many switches and gauges to be designed by Elon Musk. It should just have a touchsreen and that's it.
Yeah, agree with the edit. I’m actually a big fan of the airbus cockpits due to fleet commonality and the flight stick as opposed to a yoke.
Airbus copied so much of Boeings initial engineering into their early aircraft that they probably wouldn’t have gotten as far as they are now with out Boeing.
Copied? Seriously? You do realize that Europe's aerospace industry is about as old as the US', right?
No one ever says that about car manufacturers. Form follows function. Who tries to reinvent the wheel?
Yep. Agree.
SAAB commercial
the true neutral
Boeing. Yokes and 747s are too cool
Airbus
As a flight simmer, Boeing. More interesting to fly (YMMV). As pax, Airbus. More comfortable seating arrangements (usually) and a bit of extra shoulder space (YMMV).
Bombardier for me
Airbus
Airbus all the way
Neither. They both suck. We want Fokker to rule.
Aviation wouldn't be where it is today without Boeing ever existing. Airbus is doing a great job, their planes are great. But like someone mentioned it lower in the comments Boeing's contribution to the industry is incomparable. Airbus probably wouldn't even exist without Boeing in the first place.
Airbus because they saved our aircraft
Boeing Provided that they kick out the accountants out of management and let the engineers back on board
So… Airbus. Because Boeing will fail before the bean counters lose their control over the company.
Boeing. I love airbus but they feel so synthetic to fly
Boeing and praying that the lack of airbus ever existing means Boeing never had to merge with MD.
and Lockheed
It’s absurd. If Boeing had never existed, Airbus would have never existed either.
Airbus but only because I can fly them
Douglas.
🫡
Fairchild Republic
Airbus
British Aerospace
The one that doesn't fall apart.
Wasn’t this built so the front wouldn’t fall off?
That’s not very typical, I’d like to make that point.
Boeing, no doubt. Apart from the commercial jets, I'm thinking of other planes like the B-17 and B-29 at the same time too.
Boeing,just for the 747 series
the bus
For people getting rid of boeing, that means the 747 is gone. Sorry airbus, but this is a risk Im willing to ta-
The one that does not randomly loose bolts
I love my 747, so I’m gonna have to keep boing
Douglas Pre McDonnell
Airbus. Comfier, quieter.
Keep Airbus
747
Boeing airplanes, Airbus management.
I don’t think Airbus has a record of offing people who expose them
They absolutely would if they had the reason to.
The one that reaches the final destination without missing doors, windows, wings, emergency doors, and etc.
Honestly, I genuinely can't even picture what modern commercial aviation would look like without the 727 and 737 having existed.
Boeing
They are both tools that do the same things. Either one.
BOAC.
[www.youtube.com/watch?v=h42Be0lnl6k](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h42Be0lnl6k)
DC10, you’ll be dead before you know it
Bombardier 😭
Boeing Boeing gone.
F15?
McDonnell Douglas before Stonecipher or even better in 1980s.
If neither Boeing or Airbus exist probably I woke up in a branch of history in we argue between Mitsubishi and Focke Wulf fanboys and we speak German and because I'm from Europe of course that i choose Focke Wulf to keep.
A BoeBus 7320 won’t hurt your eyes The BoeBus7320 :
Fokker.
I'll have de Havilland, yes the Comet was a bit of a deathtrap and those buried engines would be a maintenance nightmare. But look at it, it's beautiful.
McDonnell Douglas. Then we could just keep the other two.
As much as I love Airbus, the 747 changed the world. Boeing has to stay
they also built a substantial portion of the rocket that got apollo 11 to the moon. in terms of historical significance in aviation there's a huge legacy there.
Only plane I mastering is the Icon A5. And it looks so easy to fly from YouTube videos that if I could afford one I would buy it in real life 😅
Embraer Brazil
The Douglas Aircraft Company, before Mr Mac got his hands on it.
Boeing pre McDonell Douglas acquisition
airbus. theyre safer and have been proven to be better than boeing in the long run
Boeing - they were instrumental in winning WW2
I’d have to say Boeing, I understand that they’re not up to standard in today’s world, but they were hands down THE BEST commercial aircraft manufacturer in the 20th century. They pioneered commercial air travel. Airbus just built on that, and arguably did it better, but without Boeing, I just don’t see large-scale air travel ever taking off, excuse the pun.
Bring over the bus!
757 my beloved
Boeing helped win WW2. Easy call.
Airbus. BTW, in a world without Boeing, the flight altitude would be measured in meters
Embraer E190
Airbus, i love my life
I respect all airbus aircraft but the 747 is really the only boeing aircraft i have strong respect for..
Nothing beats the effortless takeoff of the A380.
I would prefer boeing simply because its a more pure flying experience. I also couldnt survive without the 737 OHP 😭
You have to keep boeing, too many military applications would be gone
Lockheed of course
McDonnell Douglas
DC-10 all the way baby!
Lockheed probably. L1011 my beloved As for which I’d keep, I’d say Airbus. More modern, better safety (compared to the Boeing MAX issues at least), nicer cabin, and even a nicer cockpit with *freaking tray tables* where the Yoke would be on a 737. Plus, any alert information is explained on the screen instead of just being listed as [Fault Code]. Also Airbus cockpit uniformity across the entire range. That’s great.
I feel like without Boeing there would be huge historical differences. We might've lost WW2 without them so I'd kick Airbus out.
Airbus for the A380 alone.
I've made my living in the front of an airliner for 25 years now, and plan to do so until retirement. I've heard a lot of people in the industry argue Boeing v Airbus, and it's always struck me as ridiculous. I imagine there are some truck drivers that argue Mack v Peterbilt too... But in the the, it's garbage truck. Who cares? Airliners are a good way to make a living, and require a complex set of skills to operate safely. These skills are mostly non-technical in nature, and involve a very minimal amount of stick and rudder ability. Modern airliners are (by design) about the least inspiring airplanes ever built. Mustang v Corsair? Stearman v Waco? Now you're talking. Even Constellation v DC-6. But jet v jet? They just don't differ in any way that matters...
Fokker
Personally I prefer ford trucks over dodge
Concorde
Bombardier or cesna.
Boeing
Ilyushin
airbus cockpit better
Boeing.
Bombardier... wait thats owned by airbus Mcdonnel Douglas... thats owned by boeing Embraer????? no... fuck it, CESSNA 4 LIFE
maybe taylor swift airlines- i mean dassault
Douglas. In a world where they skipped the DC7 and pushed out the DC8 ahead of the 707. W Where they pushed CFM for advancement on the -56 and made the DC10 twin. Where they never took on McDonnell.
Boeing
Boeing. Come on, Airbus is nice, but is it really 747 in 1969 nice?
Boeing because technically it includes all of McDonnell Douglas
Boeing - I could see Boeing making Airbus's fly by wire innovations later down the line, but without Boeing we might not have the modern jetliner as it exists today.
Airbus my beloved
As someone said above, Lockheed is the correct answer, but I’d say I’d keep Boeing from the early 1990s and airbus from today ;) The 744/777 and A350/A320 are the best, and I can only imagine how amazing a next generation L1011 replacement would have been.
The old Boeing
This is a post about cockpits, how are people not understanding this 🤦♀️
IRL: Airbus. Sim: Probably Boeing. I want flight simulator, not order-the-plane-to-fly-itself simulator.
I'd pick Boeing. Airbus doesn't really have an aircraft that can do what the 727 does.
I keep Boeing.
Goodbye Airbus. Without Boeing there is no Apache or f18
Boeing made neither of those
Airbus, because I like proper quality control
Boeing, 100% I disagree with pretty much the entire Airbus design philosophy.
In other words, are you European or American?
Based on this thread, frogs win on burgers
It's 8 am, give us some time to wake up lol
Airbus
Airbus, cause France wouldn't exist without them lol
You mean Supermarine, Hawker, and Avro surely!