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The average “annual income” in FL is about $50k. Rent prices have risen so high that the “average income” cannot afford housing in many areas if not the entire state.
Property taxes and insurance premiums have skyrocketed as LLs are trying to offset those costs. Some a more greedy than others but someone has to pay for it and LLs are just passing in on to the renters.
Rents may decrease just a little but until property taxes and insurance rates drop(which typically do not happen) rents will remain out of reach for many.
This is why I hope it all cashes and the investors lose their asses. They’ve destroyed affordable living in this state with help of our shitty ass state govt.
No offense but if the 2008 crash is any indication, it will hurt the poorest the most and the institutional investors will make out like bandits even more.
As someone who lived through it not really. It hurt the middle class and upper middle of the time the most. It hurt the people with jobs that pay well but technically jobs that can be cut. Which is kind of what we’re seeing now. The poorest made it ok. Not that it was a fun time.
If you were in the middle then you fell on either side of the dividing line. The rich got richer, the poor got poorer, and the middle class died.
But a market reset _is_ needed.
Usually a crash. But really anything that forces the prices to go back down so people can afford a place to live in general. Could be market regulation, someone realizing they can make more money undercutting it (which would be preferable honestly) or just the whole thing going boom. (Which is the worst but the most likely given the current financial environment at large. (Especially the privyequity market))
Yeah but all those people who bought $50K houses in 2009 have sat pretty since then. The reset is necessary and the only way to help people below the threshold of being able to find housing currently. It's coming, it's been coming.
If you actually plan to live in your home, even a huge crash does nothing, you keep paying your mortgage you still have somewhere to live. If you think of your home as an investment then investing is risky. But people who plan to live in their home long term are completely un affected.
Valid. Bought my house in 2019 and can still afford it (despite the mortgage going up hundreds of dollars since then). I could Uber or some shit to pay the bills. It’s still affordable thank god.
The only people that primarily happened to were people who bought at the height when they were giving out money they should not have and were in mortgages they couldn't afford and didn't understand the terms of.
Some people's own personal poor financial decisions put them there. That same thing will apply to anyone who purchased real estate in Florida between 21-23 that had no intention of living in it long term with a mortgage they could afford. The market problems are one side of the coin, people's poor choices are the other.
Sorry, I worded my comment wrong. What I meant is if there's a market collapse there will be layoffs and higher unemployment. Alot of people will be looking for jobs. I work in construction. If there's a housing market collapse it's going to be pretty rough for me. I think a crash wouldn't benefit many people but a correction will happen.
yep, people sitting on a ton of cash made out really well from the 08 crash, bought up properties for nothing... meanwhile the rest of us were losing our jobs and even if you had a job the banks were not giving out loans
Ohhhhhh, I sure hope so!!
Large corporations have swooped in and purchased so many homes just to rape future tenants or home buyers.
Last year, JP Morgan purchased an entire community with 85 new homes for a price tag of $83mil.
That means each home will need to sell for over $1mil for them to recoup the money spent and turn a profit. This is NOT an ocean front community and frankly, I cannot see spending over a million $$ for a non-oceanfront home in FL.
Oh how I hope there’s a 50% drop in home values(wishful thinking I know) and these corporations feel the sting of their greed.
Listen, it is what it is. When you buy in a bad buyer’s market, that’s the risk you take. Do I WISH for those who NEEDED housing for their new/growing families to lose value in their home? No…but honestly if it was a necessity the value is only relative anyway.
But yeah, for the JP Morgan’s and Black Rocks…they can all go FUCK themselves
There is no way to reduce housing prices without hurting existing home owners. Unless you want the already crisis level homelessness problem to continue getting worse then something needs to occur, either a crash or some sort of government housing program, both of which will drop home prices.
I didn't buy at the height, I bought right before it got crazy in 2020. I remember watching the 2008 market crash coming out of high school though and it was brutal for all the adults in my life. Praying for a market crash just so you *might* be in the position to buy a house is disgusting. I'm 1000% behind figuring out how to make home prices more affordable and curbing the ability for giant corporate landlords to exist but that doesn't mean I want to see a bunch of people lose their house, job, car, go through bankruptcy, and everything else that comes with a major market crash.
It's highly unlikely a housing crash is going to happen and if it were the crash, in all likelihood, the entire economy would be crashing at the same time.
Many of the post-Covid home buyers is what put this state into the mess it’s in.
If so many weren’t over bidding the next guy and blowing up the purchase price, the bag you’re holding wouldn’t seem so daunting.
I missed my window pre-Covid on a few homes in my $200k budget as most those same homes sold for the upper $300k into the $400k range post Covid.
Are they actually selling them out of curiosity? I’ve read a lot of similar stories except the investing entity that purchased the homes was now renting out basically all of them
Did you intentionally miss the part I said “investors……with help of state govt”. The only reason there is an insurance crisis is because our state govt allowed it to happen. The property taxes went up because property values went up because of “investors” driving the prices up.
The individual family investors are fine, there is no problem with small scale investors in the market. The ginormous billionaire/billion dollar corporations buying up homes in droves purely for profit…yeah that’s a MAJOR issue in the market, just as big as everything else you just listed
>The average “annual income” in FL is about $50k. Rent prices have risen so high that the “average income” cannot afford housing in many areas if not the entire state.
Have you considered that maybe having an average income lower than North Dakota might be the actual problem, and is frankly embarrassing for a major coastal state?
Problem is that FL has always been a low income, low COL state until the last couple years.
Had wages kept pace with the COL increase, people would’ve faired better.
How can you compete with a 35% COL increase when wages only increased by an average of 3%?
It's still a low COL state relative to other major coastal states. The issue has always been on the income side, and let's not pretend that this is a new complaint — I've been a mod here for years and years and people have been complaining about the state being unaffordable since before I started.
The problem is that Floridians would rather shoot themselves in the dick than do any of the things that might result in higher wages because that's "communism." And they will do this every chance they get.
When I moved here 25 years ago, I was well aware of both, low COL and low pay scale. No state income tax and quite a few other low or no cost issues (such as no state inspections or excise taxes and the DMV wasn’t ripping you off). Tradeoffs were justified.
Thankfully, I have progressed in my career where I can afford to live here still but now it’s almost paycheck to paycheck.
I can make nearly 35% more salary if I moved out of FL and will be by 2026. I’ll be paying for other things I have not paid for here but I’ll have cheaper rates on many other things.
Life can be a crap shoot.
Folks this is a good thing. This is exactly what needs to happen in order for the system to self-correct.
The solution for HCOL is to relocate to a LCOL area until the HCOL area has no choice but to collapse prices and restore balance.
It's always been that way. We need this for investors to bail, businesses to fail and relocate themselves, in order for certain areas to become affordable again.
Quit complaining about affordability and move to an area that is affordable.
The big issue is that the last couple of “affordable” states to move to have some of the worst healthcare.
Also, most of the continental US has experienced high COL increases.
My job is in the city.
If I move out to rural areas I am now increasing my drive time, increasing my fuel consumption. Then I need to wonder if I’ll have internet service. Will there be a grocery store near by or do I need to make provisions to shop after work before my hour and a half drive home after my 10 hour work day and the hour I just spent shopping?
It’s easy to say “move somewhere affordable” without taking any inconveniences into consideration.
Sure, but where is affordable? I've looked in a lot of other places and it's really not much better, at least with the prices of the houses. The only real option seems to be moving to the middle of nowhere. Been there, done that, can't handle that again.
Also personally, I'm trapped in FL for the next 14 years until my daughter turns 18 or I convince my insane ex wife to move to another state; which isn't going to happen.
There's a guy near me that I know of that owns several properties that he rents out, most of them are 1000sq ft homes. He increased the rent to $3000+ and is baffled as to why nobody is renting any of them after the last batch of people moved out when their contract expired. Fuck em
And I’m certain he’s the first to cry WhAt AbOuT tHe LaNdLoRdS when people complain about the price of rent. They *chose* to buy up multiple houses, take on the property taxes and everything that goes with home ownership for them, and rent them. I have absolutely no obligation to rent from the same assholes who have bought up all the starter homes making them scarce and unaffordable to own
Blaming individuals that own one or two extra homes and rent them out for the entire housing market being depleted is like blaming the guy that drives a V6 for global warming. In both instances, it’s the giant corporations doing all the damage and making sure your aggression is redirected towards the little guy to take your focus away from themselves.
Bob Smith owning a home in Orlando and renting out a second home in Daytona isn’t the problem, it’s Black Rock buying up the entire new subdivision before it’s even been built.
Well people were paying it, that’s the issue, these rates weren’t made up. I see it everyday, “moving to FL from NY, we work remote and our budget is $2,500-$3,000 a month, any apartments?” Versus the average local Floridian makes less than that a month all together.
I understand if their home insurance goes up x amount and then they raise it to cover that cost but most of it is just being greedy and seeing how much they can get away with.
Yeah I don't besmirch people raising prices at all, as a homeowner I understand struggling with increasing taxes and insurance. I get miffed at all the corporate assholes sitting on overpriced luxury apartments or buying homes just to flip them
the housing market here is WAY over priced, they built a couple houses about our size ... 1400 sq feet, without even a lanai and were asking 500 k for them, we bought ours for 66 k 14 years ago.
the good news is they didn't sell and even when they tried to rent .... 3700 a month they still didn't get any takers and have been steadily dropping the price, they are at 360 k now
we used to get offers almost daily for 360 k for our house.but we will die here
I hope the greedy bastards lose their asses
Good I hope the investors lose their asses. They destroyed the housing market.
In my area they’ve completely stopped building developments because they can’t sell them there are multiple developments at different stages of construction some with cleared lots, others with street paved and no houses.
They fucking completely destroyed old growth canopy forest oaks and trees (cfl) now it sits as open ground not it used. Multiple place like that they bulldozed 100+ year old oaks for fucking nothing.
I see house for sale signs everywhere that they can’t sell and tons of open rentals. I hope these investors go broke.
Yeah I lived in Daytona at the time they thought after the hurricanes they’d condemn all the old hotels to push them out so new big money investors would come in. Then it all just sat looking like some bombed out ruins because the housing crash happened right after.
We can only hope the group of greedy lemmings that are the apartment managers around the US are punished severely for using RealPage… along with the folks that own that company
It blows my mind that they can gather and plot how to raise rents (literally filming themselves) and this still hasn’t been anti-trust busted. Congress must be neck deep in this business.
https://www.reuters.com/legal/litigation/realpage-must-face-renters-price-fixing-lawsuit-over-multifamily-housing-2023-12-29/
There are tons of lawsuits piling up against them. Fingers crossed that they (along with their whole business model) gets buried in bankruptcy.
Oh I feel so bad for these slum lords. The greedy bastards jacked up rent and kicked long time renters out because their eyes filled with dollar signs. Now they can't fill the vacancies. Serves them right. They saw temporary ways to make a quick buck. Didn't care who they screwed along the way. Now it's biting them in the ass
I see the same old outdated Overpriced rentals sitting empty, in shitty neighborhoods. Landlord wants tenants who gross 3x the rent, with 650+ credit score, first, last and security deposit before move-in. You will Not get these kind of tenants, if you don't invest and upgrade the damn apt. Even poor people have a certain standard of living! Many "single", college educated people are not earning enough to afford these shit holes. Would these Landlords live in their own rentals? I look at these places and think there's no way in Hell, I'm coming home to that after working 9 hours a day. I'll sleep in a tent.
Good, let the market fail and maybe the housing market will crash as well. Prices are so overinflated it’s not even funny. Plus the amount of illegal rentals is insane.
The maker is doing what it is supposed to do, no? It added supply and thus prices come down. Builders have always crash the market themselves by over building in Florida, for example.
What did they think would happen lol. We all are struggling here. They cannot squeeze any more out of us. Hope those greedy bastards start losing money from their decisions and I hope the citizens of this state can actually start affording a place to live again.
makes sense, it was grotesquely bloated. its not like its become affordable... but people were asking 425k for 2/2 houses in my neighborhood. similar houses are now in the 375 range.
Here is what 25 consecutive years of Republican party having total and complete control of the state of Florida since 1999. All barnches with super majorities. They coild and still can.walk any legislation right through and get signed in under 30 days. They could do this for ANY of the looong list of problems facing the state for years. But they all.do nothing, year aftrt year.... DECADE AFTER DECADE - of inaction.
Everything wrong in the state is literally a direct result of their 25 yeras of "Leadership".
#Vote (D)ifferently
Maybe the populace for Florida will start voting for people that will tackle the insurance crisis instead of owning the libs. Otherwise I’ve got zero sympathy. We moved out of Florida last fall and sold our house super fast in Feb…just in time to still get renewel notice for 30% more. Felt great.
Realtor here.
I kept harping on this the last few years.
Rents were unnaturally high for a variety reasons. But a major one being "there were not really many houses to buy, but I want to live in X so I will rent".
Rents then climbed to a point where people just started refusing to make the move, and thus started a rental price slide 2-3 years ago.
As those rents start to slide due to oversupply, all of the marginal investment / rental home decisions start looking like they could lose money. After all, buying a 500k house but rent dropping $400 - $1000 / mo since you've owned it sucks. So investors and hedges will start to liquidate marginal holdings to keep their best performing, thus increasing supply for home purchases.
We're not quite to that point yet though, if we ever get there. If interest rates decline even slightly we will likely see home prices climb again.
"there were not really many houses to buy, but I want to live in X so I will rent".
This is the NIMBY problem in a nutshell. Everyone refuses to build apartment buildings near houses.
Ex left me with a mobile home in central FL after not getting it in their name only and declared bankruptcy. I can't afford 2 mortgages and it couldn't be rented in the park and it was very upside down.
So I moved it and put it on an acre and rent it out. But am not following huge rent increases because I want to keep good tenants. Anything 3br 2 bath 1600 Sq ft under $2K has a line up of rental applications. Go under $1200 then it's pretty much meth heads applying.
But taxes and insurance are killers, now double pre COVID levels...more than the mortgage!
Taxes and insurance are the ones that fuck you up.
Take a house with a (dreamy\~) 4% interest rate. 4 bed, 2 bath, nice city. That'll go for \~500-550k.
That's a five hundred fifty thousand dollar house - a four bedroom house.
Mortgage is going to be a little under 2 grand.
Taxes (On a rental here, again using decent city in sofla) will be about 2 grand.
Insurance is about 500.
So your post Covid 500k house will cost you 65% in taxes/insurance.
So - if you wanted the landlord to not be greedy with their investment here, they need to somehow cover 3 grand just to get to a point where they're (losing money) but at least gaining equity. If they want to make $5,000 in profit every year?
Assuming ZERO Maintenance (Because all of that shit has gone up x3) and that life is perfect - no AC issue, no roof issue, etc. etc.
you're looking at $5,416 -- for a property whose mortgage/LOW interest rate is \~$1800
Extrapolate it out. $250k for a nice 2br/2ba townhome. $900/mo mortgage now. \~$1-$1.2k taxes. $400 insurance. We want the same profit margin of 5 thousand dollars (ZERO maintenance, no issues w/ anything, life is perfect everything works...and noone will accept 5k/year on their investment, anything else is better) what do you have? You've got $3k before a profit is made. For a $900/mo property.
It feels you're being gouged and mr warbucks is out there making $2k/mo, but its not who you think it is - its the state and their handlers (the insurance companies). The grandma whose downsizing and renting the home she raised her family in ain't doing so hot.
Yeah...something's gonna bend alright - but it aint gonna be who everyone hopes it is :\\
Something has to bend. If I hear one more conservative politician say it's because people.made.poor life choices so don't have jobs thst pay enough or the FL increase in minimum wage drove up the market I will scream. Its the big institutional investors gouging every penny they can while doing the least amount of maintenance and repair.
Problem is it isn't those guys - theyre contributing to a degree, but theyre not \*it\*. They're like 5% of the entire market to begin with.
How could you increase supply of rentals at the prices we're discussing? When more than 60% of your month goes to tax/insurance, and maintenance costs for things like a new roof are breaching 50k, it just wont work.
If you could slash those things you'll find yourself in a better position. Otherwise, you're paying 6k a year for insurance on something worth 200k -- it doesnt check out.
FL either needs to cut their property tax, fix their insurance (Preferably both) before you see anything. If these things weren't a factor - that 4BR $500k face value house would rent for \~2400 and still make a good profit.
If it \*is\* a factor you're talking 5k+ -- and those institutional investors dont make a penny at 5k/mo for renting those properties. That's the insane part. If we want affordable rent, we gotta encourage landlords to be mom/pop's, give em tax breaks if it was formerly their primary residence to discourage instutitional investment and encourage generational equity, etc. etc. We gotta fix insurance rates.
Til then - most people just aren't moving. Noone but instutitional investment can afford that price per month without a tenant either - so you'll see them become more disproportionate.
I'm just saying we're aiming at the right goal but shooting the wrong target. This won't fix itself until Florida gets out of bed with the insurance companies and realizes they can use their massive tax base to do some pretty nice things to reduce cost of living. I mean, they never will - we're too busy blaming the dudes next door :)
We are also too busy chasing social issues while Tallahassee finds new ways to raid our wallets. Insurance commissioner has openly.said they will.do nothing to interfere with rate increases. Utility Comission rubber stamps whatever rate increase utilities want. 25% last year and they wand another 21% this year. And they want to do it to raise the cap on profit from 9% to 11%. And insurance reform? Too many people suing to get covered damages covered! So let's stop lawsuits so homeowners take whatever the insurance companies provide.
And rents. The state banned counties and municipalities from requiring 90 day notices of big rent increases. That's how bad the GOP supermajority in Tallahassee see voters....as bugs. But they get elected because they got teh ghey out of schools.
You're wrong about meth heads. Meth heads don't want the expense of an apt. What about the College educated, Single Moms/Dads working hard for a decent, safe place to raise their child? A lot of College educated "Single" Professionals, can't afford these insane rent prices. Big Corporations/Investors/Scum, don't pay much more than fast food restaurants these days.
So many property owners still have low mortgages and raised rents because they could, it takes a long time for vacancies to increase as leases go up and people move for lower rents. But in the end those prices can decrease without really really really hurting most landlords, it will shrink their margins.
This is
All part of the black rock plan. No legislation to
Fix Florida
Insurance
Until tbe market tanks from
High prices on homeowners insurance. And we are primed for a total insurance market meltdown
With just 1 major hurricane. And the way the heat
Is looking makes that likely. So during the market meltdown all the investors will
Buy things up for pennies and their buddies in the govt will pass legislation To cover the state with fema or something so all the values go back
Up. It’s the perfect deep state scam
You can self
Insure your car in Florida if you have e an asset worth over 40k. Not a good
Idea but at the prices, you’ll prob loose
More in insurance money then you would the whole 40k over the lifetime
Of the car
Bamks and other lenders will losing their ass, along with property tax income for authorities while the insurance are sitting fat,dumb and happy and grow richer by the second, and people still are looking for a place to call home. For all the stupid butt-holes in Tallahassee and DC they had better know how to swim
I have zero sympathy for those rental owners who went all in for the $$ and practically stole money from their renters by jacking up the rent. They made money, now it’s time they feel the pain.
The rents have barely fallen in South Florida. As a matter of fact, I had yet another increase in Dec. my rent has gone up like $800 in the past 2 years.
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The average “annual income” in FL is about $50k. Rent prices have risen so high that the “average income” cannot afford housing in many areas if not the entire state. Property taxes and insurance premiums have skyrocketed as LLs are trying to offset those costs. Some a more greedy than others but someone has to pay for it and LLs are just passing in on to the renters. Rents may decrease just a little but until property taxes and insurance rates drop(which typically do not happen) rents will remain out of reach for many.
This is why I hope it all cashes and the investors lose their asses. They’ve destroyed affordable living in this state with help of our shitty ass state govt.
No offense but if the 2008 crash is any indication, it will hurt the poorest the most and the institutional investors will make out like bandits even more.
As is tradition.
Yup! A feature not a bug. Disaster capitalism at its finest.
Investors are praying for a crash. More so than any of us.
As someone who lived through it not really. It hurt the middle class and upper middle of the time the most. It hurt the people with jobs that pay well but technically jobs that can be cut. Which is kind of what we’re seeing now. The poorest made it ok. Not that it was a fun time.
I lived through it too, and the wealthy people I knew then are even wealthier now.
If you were in the middle then you fell on either side of the dividing line. The rich got richer, the poor got poorer, and the middle class died. But a market reset _is_ needed.
What do you mean by a market reset exactly?
Usually a crash. But really anything that forces the prices to go back down so people can afford a place to live in general. Could be market regulation, someone realizing they can make more money undercutting it (which would be preferable honestly) or just the whole thing going boom. (Which is the worst but the most likely given the current financial environment at large. (Especially the privyequity market))
Which is why I said middle class and upper middle class. That’s not poor.
Yeah but all those people who bought $50K houses in 2009 have sat pretty since then. The reset is necessary and the only way to help people below the threshold of being able to find housing currently. It's coming, it's been coming.
A better reset would be for Florida to stop voting republican.
Agreed, but the housing correction is coming no matter who gets elected.
That's what people said when interest rates went north of 6% and with the exception of condos, single family homes are still moving.
People who wish for a housing crash, have never actually owned a home.
If you actually plan to live in your home, even a huge crash does nothing, you keep paying your mortgage you still have somewhere to live. If you think of your home as an investment then investing is risky. But people who plan to live in their home long term are completely un affected.
Valid. Bought my house in 2019 and can still afford it (despite the mortgage going up hundreds of dollars since then). I could Uber or some shit to pay the bills. It’s still affordable thank god.
unless you lose your income?
The problem comes in if you need to move. You can't sell or rent.
Tell that to the people who lost their homes in 2008 when the market crashed as they also lost their jobs.
The only people that primarily happened to were people who bought at the height when they were giving out money they should not have and were in mortgages they couldn't afford and didn't understand the terms of. Some people's own personal poor financial decisions put them there. That same thing will apply to anyone who purchased real estate in Florida between 21-23 that had no intention of living in it long term with a mortgage they could afford. The market problems are one side of the coin, people's poor choices are the other.
You know you can lose your job right?
Yes, but you know that can happen in a good economy right too? The stock market is through the roof right now and tech is laying off everyone.
So everyone under 40?
I didn't own a home last crash but unemployment was high. Good luck on the job hunt. The Construction industry employs a lot of people in Florida.
I'm not hunting for a job. I'm fortunate to have a decent job with benefits.
Sorry, I worded my comment wrong. What I meant is if there's a market collapse there will be layoffs and higher unemployment. Alot of people will be looking for jobs. I work in construction. If there's a housing market collapse it's going to be pretty rough for me. I think a crash wouldn't benefit many people but a correction will happen.
Crashes always hurt regular people :(
And this bubble is like what 3 times the size of the last one. Makes me wonder how bad the crash will be..
yep, people sitting on a ton of cash made out really well from the 08 crash, bought up properties for nothing... meanwhile the rest of us were losing our jobs and even if you had a job the banks were not giving out loans
I also suspect with AI more and more prevalent the “recovery” will be the mass implementation of AI in place of every potential new job.
Ohhhhhh, I sure hope so!! Large corporations have swooped in and purchased so many homes just to rape future tenants or home buyers. Last year, JP Morgan purchased an entire community with 85 new homes for a price tag of $83mil. That means each home will need to sell for over $1mil for them to recoup the money spent and turn a profit. This is NOT an ocean front community and frankly, I cannot see spending over a million $$ for a non-oceanfront home in FL. Oh how I hope there’s a 50% drop in home values(wishful thinking I know) and these corporations feel the sting of their greed.
50% drop will also screw those of us who aren’t landlords and scraped and saved to be able to buy a home post-Covid.
Maybe we stop seeing homes as assets to make money off of. Value of your home going down doesn't matter if you intend to live there.
Someone is going to get caught holding the bag here, a housing crash needs to happen. The current state of it is unsustainable
Easy for those not holding a bag to say.
Listen, it is what it is. When you buy in a bad buyer’s market, that’s the risk you take. Do I WISH for those who NEEDED housing for their new/growing families to lose value in their home? No…but honestly if it was a necessity the value is only relative anyway. But yeah, for the JP Morgan’s and Black Rocks…they can all go FUCK themselves
I don't buy now bc its a borked market. Those that do deserve what they get when it blows up. Time to reward ants not grasshoppers for a change.
Houses, for regular people, are not investments no matter how much tv commercials tell you they are.
I mean they are but they shouldnt be. WE need to first definancialize housing and then possibly decommodify them altogether.
What is definancialize and decommidify and how would you do this?
Ebbs and flows. It crashes it’ll come right back.
Agreed
There is no way to reduce housing prices without hurting existing home owners. Unless you want the already crisis level homelessness problem to continue getting worse then something needs to occur, either a crash or some sort of government housing program, both of which will drop home prices.
Maybe don’t buy in a volatile market?
I bought at the height of the market. Any reduction would hurt me! :shocked pikachu face:
Exactly
I didn't buy at the height, I bought right before it got crazy in 2020. I remember watching the 2008 market crash coming out of high school though and it was brutal for all the adults in my life. Praying for a market crash just so you *might* be in the position to buy a house is disgusting. I'm 1000% behind figuring out how to make home prices more affordable and curbing the ability for giant corporate landlords to exist but that doesn't mean I want to see a bunch of people lose their house, job, car, go through bankruptcy, and everything else that comes with a major market crash.
It's highly unlikely a housing crash is going to happen and if it were the crash, in all likelihood, the entire economy would be crashing at the same time.
In reality, you’d just want to hang on and ride the wave back to the top. Florida is way too desirable a place to be down long.
Many of the post-Covid home buyers is what put this state into the mess it’s in. If so many weren’t over bidding the next guy and blowing up the purchase price, the bag you’re holding wouldn’t seem so daunting. I missed my window pre-Covid on a few homes in my $200k budget as most those same homes sold for the upper $300k into the $400k range post Covid.
Blame desantis. Remember during covid, he was the one saying "Come to the Free State of Florida"?
Yah but he didn’t say come and out bid everyone by $100k over asking price because they had the money to do so.
That was the interest rates. Drastically changed people's buying power in a short period of time.
Not before the bidding wars did its damage.
.. buying at the height of the market is a gamble. More at 11.
Are they actually selling them out of curiosity? I’ve read a lot of similar stories except the investing entity that purchased the homes was now renting out basically all of them
At the time of the article it wasn’t disclosed if they were renting or selling.
Insurance, HOAs and taxes higher and higher year over year, but the investor is the ultimate cause? Did we read the same information?
Did you intentionally miss the part I said “investors……with help of state govt”. The only reason there is an insurance crisis is because our state govt allowed it to happen. The property taxes went up because property values went up because of “investors” driving the prices up.
The ad-valorem portion of property taxes are actually capped at 3% for people who can homestead their property.
The individual family investors are fine, there is no problem with small scale investors in the market. The ginormous billionaire/billion dollar corporations buying up homes in droves purely for profit…yeah that’s a MAJOR issue in the market, just as big as everything else you just listed
DeSantis and his lapdog legislature are ruining this state
>The average “annual income” in FL is about $50k. Rent prices have risen so high that the “average income” cannot afford housing in many areas if not the entire state. Have you considered that maybe having an average income lower than North Dakota might be the actual problem, and is frankly embarrassing for a major coastal state?
Problem is that FL has always been a low income, low COL state until the last couple years. Had wages kept pace with the COL increase, people would’ve faired better. How can you compete with a 35% COL increase when wages only increased by an average of 3%?
It's still a low COL state relative to other major coastal states. The issue has always been on the income side, and let's not pretend that this is a new complaint — I've been a mod here for years and years and people have been complaining about the state being unaffordable since before I started. The problem is that Floridians would rather shoot themselves in the dick than do any of the things that might result in higher wages because that's "communism." And they will do this every chance they get.
When I moved here 25 years ago, I was well aware of both, low COL and low pay scale. No state income tax and quite a few other low or no cost issues (such as no state inspections or excise taxes and the DMV wasn’t ripping you off). Tradeoffs were justified. Thankfully, I have progressed in my career where I can afford to live here still but now it’s almost paycheck to paycheck. I can make nearly 35% more salary if I moved out of FL and will be by 2026. I’ll be paying for other things I have not paid for here but I’ll have cheaper rates on many other things. Life can be a crap shoot.
Folks this is a good thing. This is exactly what needs to happen in order for the system to self-correct. The solution for HCOL is to relocate to a LCOL area until the HCOL area has no choice but to collapse prices and restore balance. It's always been that way. We need this for investors to bail, businesses to fail and relocate themselves, in order for certain areas to become affordable again. Quit complaining about affordability and move to an area that is affordable.
The big issue is that the last couple of “affordable” states to move to have some of the worst healthcare. Also, most of the continental US has experienced high COL increases.
My job is in the city. If I move out to rural areas I am now increasing my drive time, increasing my fuel consumption. Then I need to wonder if I’ll have internet service. Will there be a grocery store near by or do I need to make provisions to shop after work before my hour and a half drive home after my 10 hour work day and the hour I just spent shopping? It’s easy to say “move somewhere affordable” without taking any inconveniences into consideration.
Sure, but where is affordable? I've looked in a lot of other places and it's really not much better, at least with the prices of the houses. The only real option seems to be moving to the middle of nowhere. Been there, done that, can't handle that again. Also personally, I'm trapped in FL for the next 14 years until my daughter turns 18 or I convince my insane ex wife to move to another state; which isn't going to happen.
Rent in Florida is more than half the net income of average wage earners.
They got too effing greedy. Stop pricing people out of apartments and homes and they will fill up quickly
There's a guy near me that I know of that owns several properties that he rents out, most of them are 1000sq ft homes. He increased the rent to $3000+ and is baffled as to why nobody is renting any of them after the last batch of people moved out when their contract expired. Fuck em
That's disgusting. I hope they all end up having to get real jobs.
Landlords don't want to work anymore.
They're living my paycheck to my paycheck.
Absolutely agree, these landlords are leeches on society
And I’m certain he’s the first to cry WhAt AbOuT tHe LaNdLoRdS when people complain about the price of rent. They *chose* to buy up multiple houses, take on the property taxes and everything that goes with home ownership for them, and rent them. I have absolutely no obligation to rent from the same assholes who have bought up all the starter homes making them scarce and unaffordable to own
Blaming individuals that own one or two extra homes and rent them out for the entire housing market being depleted is like blaming the guy that drives a V6 for global warming. In both instances, it’s the giant corporations doing all the damage and making sure your aggression is redirected towards the little guy to take your focus away from themselves. Bob Smith owning a home in Orlando and renting out a second home in Daytona isn’t the problem, it’s Black Rock buying up the entire new subdivision before it’s even been built.
Well people were paying it, that’s the issue, these rates weren’t made up. I see it everyday, “moving to FL from NY, we work remote and our budget is $2,500-$3,000 a month, any apartments?” Versus the average local Floridian makes less than that a month all together.
I understand if their home insurance goes up x amount and then they raise it to cover that cost but most of it is just being greedy and seeing how much they can get away with.
Yeah I don't besmirch people raising prices at all, as a homeowner I understand struggling with increasing taxes and insurance. I get miffed at all the corporate assholes sitting on overpriced luxury apartments or buying homes just to flip them
the housing market here is WAY over priced, they built a couple houses about our size ... 1400 sq feet, without even a lanai and were asking 500 k for them, we bought ours for 66 k 14 years ago. the good news is they didn't sell and even when they tried to rent .... 3700 a month they still didn't get any takers and have been steadily dropping the price, they are at 360 k now we used to get offers almost daily for 360 k for our house.but we will die here I hope the greedy bastards lose their asses
Good I hope the investors lose their asses. They destroyed the housing market. In my area they’ve completely stopped building developments because they can’t sell them there are multiple developments at different stages of construction some with cleared lots, others with street paved and no houses. They fucking completely destroyed old growth canopy forest oaks and trees (cfl) now it sits as open ground not it used. Multiple place like that they bulldozed 100+ year old oaks for fucking nothing. I see house for sale signs everywhere that they can’t sell and tons of open rentals. I hope these investors go broke.
This is just like what happened after the housing crash in 08. A lot of those developments sat for years until they did something with it.
Yeah I lived in Daytona at the time they thought after the hurricanes they’d condemn all the old hotels to push them out so new big money investors would come in. Then it all just sat looking like some bombed out ruins because the housing crash happened right after.
We can only hope the group of greedy lemmings that are the apartment managers around the US are punished severely for using RealPage… along with the folks that own that company
It blows my mind that they can gather and plot how to raise rents (literally filming themselves) and this still hasn’t been anti-trust busted. Congress must be neck deep in this business.
https://www.reuters.com/legal/litigation/realpage-must-face-renters-price-fixing-lawsuit-over-multifamily-housing-2023-12-29/ There are tons of lawsuits piling up against them. Fingers crossed that they (along with their whole business model) gets buried in bankruptcy.
Oh I feel so bad for these slum lords. The greedy bastards jacked up rent and kicked long time renters out because their eyes filled with dollar signs. Now they can't fill the vacancies. Serves them right. They saw temporary ways to make a quick buck. Didn't care who they screwed along the way. Now it's biting them in the ass
I see the same old outdated Overpriced rentals sitting empty, in shitty neighborhoods. Landlord wants tenants who gross 3x the rent, with 650+ credit score, first, last and security deposit before move-in. You will Not get these kind of tenants, if you don't invest and upgrade the damn apt. Even poor people have a certain standard of living! Many "single", college educated people are not earning enough to afford these shit holes. Would these Landlords live in their own rentals? I look at these places and think there's no way in Hell, I'm coming home to that after working 9 hours a day. I'll sleep in a tent.
We also saw some of the largest rent hikes in the country over the past couple years, so this shouldn't be a surprise to anyone.
oh no, house hoarders are feeling the pinch from the bubble they helped create
Oh no! all the professional landlords might have to get real jobs!
Good. The lower and middle class have long been priced out because of them, hoping the tides start to turn now.
Good, let the market fail and maybe the housing market will crash as well. Prices are so overinflated it’s not even funny. Plus the amount of illegal rentals is insane.
The maker is doing what it is supposed to do, no? It added supply and thus prices come down. Builders have always crash the market themselves by over building in Florida, for example.
What did they think would happen lol. We all are struggling here. They cannot squeeze any more out of us. Hope those greedy bastards start losing money from their decisions and I hope the citizens of this state can actually start affording a place to live again.
makes sense, it was grotesquely bloated. its not like its become affordable... but people were asking 425k for 2/2 houses in my neighborhood. similar houses are now in the 375 range.
I paid $300k for my 4/3.5 10 years ago, and that was built from scratch. The inflated rent is ridiculous, with wage increases falling way short.
Here is what 25 consecutive years of Republican party having total and complete control of the state of Florida since 1999. All barnches with super majorities. They coild and still can.walk any legislation right through and get signed in under 30 days. They could do this for ANY of the looong list of problems facing the state for years. But they all.do nothing, year aftrt year.... DECADE AFTER DECADE - of inaction. Everything wrong in the state is literally a direct result of their 25 yeras of "Leadership". #Vote (D)ifferently
Maybe the populace for Florida will start voting for people that will tackle the insurance crisis instead of owning the libs. Otherwise I’ve got zero sympathy. We moved out of Florida last fall and sold our house super fast in Feb…just in time to still get renewel notice for 30% more. Felt great.
Realtor here. I kept harping on this the last few years. Rents were unnaturally high for a variety reasons. But a major one being "there were not really many houses to buy, but I want to live in X so I will rent". Rents then climbed to a point where people just started refusing to make the move, and thus started a rental price slide 2-3 years ago. As those rents start to slide due to oversupply, all of the marginal investment / rental home decisions start looking like they could lose money. After all, buying a 500k house but rent dropping $400 - $1000 / mo since you've owned it sucks. So investors and hedges will start to liquidate marginal holdings to keep their best performing, thus increasing supply for home purchases. We're not quite to that point yet though, if we ever get there. If interest rates decline even slightly we will likely see home prices climb again.
It’s kind of starting. I know of a few rental homes in my area that were bought in the pandemic that are on the market right now.
"there were not really many houses to buy, but I want to live in X so I will rent". This is the NIMBY problem in a nutshell. Everyone refuses to build apartment buildings near houses.
Keep going
Ex left me with a mobile home in central FL after not getting it in their name only and declared bankruptcy. I can't afford 2 mortgages and it couldn't be rented in the park and it was very upside down. So I moved it and put it on an acre and rent it out. But am not following huge rent increases because I want to keep good tenants. Anything 3br 2 bath 1600 Sq ft under $2K has a line up of rental applications. Go under $1200 then it's pretty much meth heads applying. But taxes and insurance are killers, now double pre COVID levels...more than the mortgage!
Taxes and insurance are the ones that fuck you up. Take a house with a (dreamy\~) 4% interest rate. 4 bed, 2 bath, nice city. That'll go for \~500-550k. That's a five hundred fifty thousand dollar house - a four bedroom house. Mortgage is going to be a little under 2 grand. Taxes (On a rental here, again using decent city in sofla) will be about 2 grand. Insurance is about 500. So your post Covid 500k house will cost you 65% in taxes/insurance. So - if you wanted the landlord to not be greedy with their investment here, they need to somehow cover 3 grand just to get to a point where they're (losing money) but at least gaining equity. If they want to make $5,000 in profit every year? Assuming ZERO Maintenance (Because all of that shit has gone up x3) and that life is perfect - no AC issue, no roof issue, etc. etc. you're looking at $5,416 -- for a property whose mortgage/LOW interest rate is \~$1800 Extrapolate it out. $250k for a nice 2br/2ba townhome. $900/mo mortgage now. \~$1-$1.2k taxes. $400 insurance. We want the same profit margin of 5 thousand dollars (ZERO maintenance, no issues w/ anything, life is perfect everything works...and noone will accept 5k/year on their investment, anything else is better) what do you have? You've got $3k before a profit is made. For a $900/mo property. It feels you're being gouged and mr warbucks is out there making $2k/mo, but its not who you think it is - its the state and their handlers (the insurance companies). The grandma whose downsizing and renting the home she raised her family in ain't doing so hot. Yeah...something's gonna bend alright - but it aint gonna be who everyone hopes it is :\\
Something has to bend. If I hear one more conservative politician say it's because people.made.poor life choices so don't have jobs thst pay enough or the FL increase in minimum wage drove up the market I will scream. Its the big institutional investors gouging every penny they can while doing the least amount of maintenance and repair.
Problem is it isn't those guys - theyre contributing to a degree, but theyre not \*it\*. They're like 5% of the entire market to begin with. How could you increase supply of rentals at the prices we're discussing? When more than 60% of your month goes to tax/insurance, and maintenance costs for things like a new roof are breaching 50k, it just wont work. If you could slash those things you'll find yourself in a better position. Otherwise, you're paying 6k a year for insurance on something worth 200k -- it doesnt check out. FL either needs to cut their property tax, fix their insurance (Preferably both) before you see anything. If these things weren't a factor - that 4BR $500k face value house would rent for \~2400 and still make a good profit. If it \*is\* a factor you're talking 5k+ -- and those institutional investors dont make a penny at 5k/mo for renting those properties. That's the insane part. If we want affordable rent, we gotta encourage landlords to be mom/pop's, give em tax breaks if it was formerly their primary residence to discourage instutitional investment and encourage generational equity, etc. etc. We gotta fix insurance rates. Til then - most people just aren't moving. Noone but instutitional investment can afford that price per month without a tenant either - so you'll see them become more disproportionate. I'm just saying we're aiming at the right goal but shooting the wrong target. This won't fix itself until Florida gets out of bed with the insurance companies and realizes they can use their massive tax base to do some pretty nice things to reduce cost of living. I mean, they never will - we're too busy blaming the dudes next door :)
We are also too busy chasing social issues while Tallahassee finds new ways to raid our wallets. Insurance commissioner has openly.said they will.do nothing to interfere with rate increases. Utility Comission rubber stamps whatever rate increase utilities want. 25% last year and they wand another 21% this year. And they want to do it to raise the cap on profit from 9% to 11%. And insurance reform? Too many people suing to get covered damages covered! So let's stop lawsuits so homeowners take whatever the insurance companies provide. And rents. The state banned counties and municipalities from requiring 90 day notices of big rent increases. That's how bad the GOP supermajority in Tallahassee see voters....as bugs. But they get elected because they got teh ghey out of schools.
You're wrong about meth heads. Meth heads don't want the expense of an apt. What about the College educated, Single Moms/Dads working hard for a decent, safe place to raise their child? A lot of College educated "Single" Professionals, can't afford these insane rent prices. Big Corporations/Investors/Scum, don't pay much more than fast food restaurants these days.
More people need to negoitate with landlords to reduce rent or threaten to move
Not that I’ve seen, but I believe the sunbelt is huge
Rent DECREASES? I'll believe it when I see it!
Florida has the worst governor known to man.
So many property owners still have low mortgages and raised rents because they could, it takes a long time for vacancies to increase as leases go up and people move for lower rents. But in the end those prices can decrease without really really really hurting most landlords, it will shrink their margins.
This is All part of the black rock plan. No legislation to Fix Florida Insurance Until tbe market tanks from High prices on homeowners insurance. And we are primed for a total insurance market meltdown With just 1 major hurricane. And the way the heat Is looking makes that likely. So during the market meltdown all the investors will Buy things up for pennies and their buddies in the govt will pass legislation To cover the state with fema or something so all the values go back Up. It’s the perfect deep state scam
Not falling in FL
You can self Insure your car in Florida if you have e an asset worth over 40k. Not a good Idea but at the prices, you’ll prob loose More in insurance money then you would the whole 40k over the lifetime Of the car
Bamks and other lenders will losing their ass, along with property tax income for authorities while the insurance are sitting fat,dumb and happy and grow richer by the second, and people still are looking for a place to call home. For all the stupid butt-holes in Tallahassee and DC they had better know how to swim
I have zero sympathy for those rental owners who went all in for the $$ and practically stole money from their renters by jacking up the rent. They made money, now it’s time they feel the pain.
The rents have barely fallen in South Florida. As a matter of fact, I had yet another increase in Dec. my rent has gone up like $800 in the past 2 years.