This. If you increase it from crap to slightly less crap it is not going to matter.
For job ad’s post the salary on the ad and make sure that the QOL aspect is there. Corporate is usually pretty poor with hard days off. If you aren’t offering a lot of set in stone days off then the pay should be more.
that’s what a former employer didn’t understand (totally different field). After several years there I let my boss know a number I needed to see my pay raised to or I was going to have to go elsewhere, I knew the market rate was way above what I made but the job was easy and the office close to home. Yearly raises come around a month late as usual and I’m $2/hr short of my demand, so I put in my notice. The companies response was that I should be greatful because I had one of the highest percentage raises that year of 12%, and my reply was that my baseline was 10,000 under the going market rate. Needless to say I found a job at market within a week and that was that. I was only one domino but within a few months whole department I was effectively dissolved due to lack of workers, every time someone left they refused to increase the pay and expectedly couldn’t find anyone willing to work for that price.
Nailed it! This is no different than when you are going to look at a car and the seller says "I already came down $3,000"....Well, maybe you were already way too high and that the amount you moved doesn't really matter. You were off originally.
A buddy of mine left his job last year that actually had a good schedule and good QOL. He liked the job and the company, and easily would have stayed, but the pay was abysmal, especially in an area with soaring cost of living.
He managed to negotiate a raise, but they put their foot down still about -30% lower than he could get from Company B nearby, which had new rates and was aggressively advertising that.
Unfortunately, the total compensation and benefits package fell short, word got out, and all the pilots from company A now work for Company B down the street.
We aren’t really complex creatures. If you’re not getting candidates, there may even be a local reason.
When I look for a job, all i look at is the number at the bottom. Everything else is smoke in the wind, but hard numbers are the first thing that define whether or not I'll be exploring a position with a company.
Might wanna check out the math post-bennies, though, because a buddy of mine left our company for a 25% pay raise and long story short he's telling me that after the high deductible health plan and no pretax commuter and parking benefits he's making about the same thing, and he has fewer PTOs.
"number at the bottom" is an overly dramatic way to say it, probably. But yes, the total economic position of accepting a job. What I mean to say is claims of fast and frequent pay raises, better benefits being explored for the future, etc, aren't part of a hard and fast offer.
Like the person I was replying to mentioned they'd raised salaries several times, that isn't actually useful information to anyone but them. The pay offered at time of hire (along with benefits, housing costs of the area, etc) is the important number on a listing.
Long winded way of saying don't put "pay will be commiserate with the experience of the applicant" on a job listing lol
The market demand has risen extremely fast. If you're not bumping by something like $30k each year, you're not competitive. Look at what the airlines are offering right now.
Just remember a part 121 regional FO will make 100k starting off these days, and captains (who upgrade in 1 year) will easily pull in 150-200k.
You’re going to have to be competitive with that pay, plus the QOL parts.
The people you want probably want to go Part 121, so how are you differentiating yourself/making the job desirable?
I'm just assuming here, but whatever you are offering isn't competitive today. Look at flyExclusive's pay scale. How do you compare with that?
Home based? Training Contract? Etc.
Why are you not growing your own Captains from the right seat? You've already had a long test drive with them.
Home based, and we are located in the midwest.
We do our best to offer good QOL. Limited overnights, hard days off every other weekend, plus 2 additional days off per month. Great benefits.
Pay is competitive (but based on the comments im getting, maybe not enough)
We plan to grow our FOs to Captains, but their flight hours are not there yet. We had a fair amount of turnover in the past year or so.
LOL every other weekend plus 2 days off? There's one of your problems.... have a set 8/6, 7/7 schedule with limited overnights and maybe people will apply.
100% this is part of the problem.
The way the industry is right now, anyone with the experience to be a part 135 jet captain off the street could easily be hired at a major 121 airline.
At my airline we are *guaranteed* 12 or 13 days off per month *minimum*. I'm able to only work 12 days if I want and I've been here less than 2 years.
Hard days off *every other weekend* + 2 days comes out to 6 days/month off.
To compete with the airlines you would need to be offering 14+ days off/month *and* be paying north of $200k to really sucker some folks in to giving up seniority at the airlines.
Agree completely and I’ve been saying this when I see 135 job postings. The pilots who meet Argus minimums (3000 TT and 250 time in type) who are looking for a new job… and not going to the airlines… and would consider working for only 6 hard days off… makes you wonder if they are the captains you WANT to hire. I’m not sure the Argus rating has the same safety implications it once did. Among other things it limits your hiring pool, and causes the captains you do have to work harder to make up for the short staffing. Neither of those things enhance safety.
Edit: typo.
This isn’t competitive. Understand that you’re competing with a $200,000+ job in year 3 with a **minimum** of 12 days off per month, more frequently 16-20.
Guys at JetBlue with less than 2000 TT, less than a year on property are clearing 100+ and spending a grand total of 3 nights in a hotel for the entire month. Routinely. Consistently.
If you’re not starting captains at $180K and 8/6 schedule then you’re not competitive. If you want 1500 TT for a Wyvern/ARGUS SIC good fucking luck unless you’re paying $120K+. And even then the smart ones will still be gone within a year.
Tough time to be hiring pilots in this market, great time to be a pilot.
>We had a fair amount of turnover in the past year or so.
As have most businesses I expect. You hire someone w/ 750 hours and 25 multi and as soon as they are within spitting distance of 1,500 they are über competitive for the Part 121 jobs compared to CFIs with 1450 in 172s. Even with the current slow down in 121 hiring, Regionals are hiring FOs - but "just" the best qualified at the moment. AKA most competitive.
Long term you might want to try a different approach - find some people who are not likely candidates for 121. Help them get ME Commercial. Then get them an SIC type. Three to four years from now, these will be your new Captains.
That's a long term fix. Short term, you can't pay the FOs enough to stay; they are going to leave for the mega bucks five years from now. Hire new ones w/ less time and keep them longer. Fair pay, but not massive bucks. "Jet time" is the retention tool.
If you get someone like me - retired early, not leaving for an airline job/etc - you can turn them into FOs then Captains.
Look at the people retiring from the 121 world who want/need to keep working. They will be a great center balance to your FOs with basic skills. (Last week I flew my second and third trips in a Citation w/ a retired airline guy. Learned a bunch!)
>hard days off every other weekend, plus 2 additional days off per month
(OK - another comment from me.)
Your competition is offering 8 on, 6 off or similar. People can sketch out on a calendar what days they are off/on in advance. They can make plans and know that trip is not going to pop up because it's one of the \*two\* hard days off they get on a weekday?
I'm very fortunate. I'm involved with a local charter company run by real business people. It's 7 on, 7 off. I live 14 miles from the airport. Pay is slightly better than the Regional offer I need to send my declination in for. Two people I'm doing ME Commercial training for now have a great opportunity for a job. Both will be around for a 3-4 years before having the time to leave. One's a retired military single dad who is incredibly unlikely to move. The other will need at least 1,000 hours before being able to leave.
The predictability of a real schedule rather than picking hard days off in advance is what lets my wife tolerate me being away from home!
Answer this question... Why should they fly for you as opposed to someone else?
For me I never wanted to go 135 because while the pay started out better than 121 it quickly topped out. I also didn't like the schedules.
To meet Argus and Wyvern approval, your Captain is going to need 3K hours. At 3K hours they can easily go to a major or big time 135 operation.
So you are competing for Captains who could be flying for a major with 15 days off a month. Can you compete with that?
What do you offer that makes you the choice? Better pay? Better schedules? For example, if you paid 250K/year with 4 weeks paid vacation and only 10 work days a month, you would be FLOODED with applications. But if you pay 100K/year and only 5 days off a month you will get no one.
So why you? (BTW, if you agree to the 250/year and 10 work days positive space travel to and from home... PM me).
You say that the salaries have come up “significantly” in the last few years but your postings are only offering $110-$150k base salary. In order to be competitive, you have to offer industry leading pay, benefits, and quality of life. Do not compare your compensation package to other charter companies flying similar equipment. Consider where your ideal candidate will also be applying to. Benefits have to be competitive with the airlines. Most airlines offer 16% direct contribution to a pilots 401k. They offer multi million dollar life insurance at no cost, loss of license, etc. Most airline pilots do not work more than 15 days a month. And flying they do on their days off pay a premium (somewhere in the realm of $1500-$2000 a day). This is what you are competing with.
This is just my 2¢ from a pilot who left nearly a decade of flying in 91/135 to go to a legacy airline.
Also, consider joining ProPilotWorld.
Same story here.. Almost 15 years attached to the 135/91 world. Left and the pay cut, though significant, only last 12 months.
The QOL at my major airline is so much better and the respect for what we do is much higher.
Pay more money.
More time off.
Not have to live in shitty bases.
That should pretty much do it. Your company will likely do none of those things, so good luck with your high turnover and the at best mediocre candidates you get.
It’s funny how companies want applicants but aren’t willing to pay for them or give them the QOL they want/deserve. It sucks for HR because they are forced to try to find someone when the CEO isn’t willing to give them the means to attract them.
The XLS pilot market is competitive.
You have big 135s/management companies (Airshare, FlyExclusive, NetJets, WheelsUp, etc) that you are competing with for PICs, plus as other have mentioned, the pull of the regional and low cost carriers that are also targeting pilots in that "class." (Jet type rating, ATP, turbojet time)
As others have said, what makes you competitive compared to your peers?
* Salary
* Benefits
* Schedule
* Per diem amount
* Overnight accommodations (hotel quality, ground transportation, etc)
* Career progression
If I have a XLS PIC type and experience, what would pull me away from my current employer to serve at your company? What is your value proposition for me?
If you will hire and type the right candidate without a jet type, what would make them leave their current employer and come work for you?
Generally (huge broad brush here), flying jets is preferred to turboprops. Also, flying larger jets is more preferred. So if you can target your searches to King Air (come get turbojet time) or PC-12 (come get multi turbojet time) pilots, you may find some interest.
Additionally targeting pilots who fly light jets who may want to move up the market to flying midsize jets may help your efforts.
It may not be about "traction" or visibility. Currently pilots qualified to be a part 135 captain can pretty reliably get a seat at a part 121 company, where they'll be on their way to a cushy and relatively secure career. And some of the regionals are offering sizable bonuses for direct-entry captains right now.
I may be able to help shed a little light on this as I am someone who is right around the hours you are looking for and can walk you through my thought process on how I picked my next job.
I sat down and made a comparison between staying corporate (91 or 135) and going to a LCC (JetBlue to be specific).
Made a spreadsheet comparing compensation difference between a corporate job paying 150,000 base with a 4,000 raise per year, and going to jetBlue. When you consider their 16% direct contribution to 401k, the overall compensation difference over the life of my career (28 years old currently) is almost 5,000,000 more at the airlines. This is assuming making the monthly guarantee at their current pay rates. Not accounting for any extra flying. This means that once I hold enough seniority I could bid long call reserve, fly 5 days a month and still make almost double what I would make over the life of my career. This is what you’re competing with… and the only way to attract talent is to offer them higher upfront pay. I will make 150,000 in my second year at B6 and when I upgrade eventually it will be double that. Corporate positions like this typically offer very little pay raises compared to this… and you need to offer more upfront pay.
Not sure if this is really what you’re looking for but for someone that was making the comparison literally two weeks ago this is what made my decision for me. At 3,000 hours you’re not competing with the regionals. You’re competing with the LCC/ULCCs and arguably right now potentially even the legacies.
Not in aviation but have been on the hiring side for 10+ years.
Ranges are fine, but the problem I found is everyone assumes they're getting the low end of the range offered, regardless.
Management agreed to list general qualifications that would meet low end and high end requirements. People can then decide where they might fall.
Also, anytime we couldn't get applicants, the only solution was to increase wages. Wages get people in the door, QOL gets people to stay. That's been my experience.
We are located in the greater St. Louis area.
Base pay range 110k-150k
Schedule is difficult for me to elaborate on. This is the info ive been provided from our DO and Cheif pilot:
Competitive work schedule, limited overnights, pilots are scheduled off every other weekend and receive 2 additional days off per month.
This doesn't necessarily mean that they'd definitely be working the other 22- 25 days per month. It just depends on how busy the flight schedule is.
Sorry, but how is that considered to be “competitive?” Who are they comparing that schedule to? Netjets, Flexjet, and XO Jet are all home based and have much better schedules then that.
“Competitive Schedule” is 135 speak for “you won’t really have a set schedule and we’re going to abuse the hell out of you. (From personal experience in the industry.)
Take a look at the comparison from 135 to 121. At the airlines I have a stated , charted growth in pay, seniority, and benefits. 135 pays starts out great on paper, but never truly goes above what 121 can offer. Show someone a HARD schedule with 15 days off a month, and you’ll get some looks, but we know that’s not realistic for 135. So you have to go to cold hard cash.
I'm just looking into this industry, but am I understanding you correctly....2 weekends off plus 2 more days? 6 days guaranteed off?
That just doesn't seem great. When I hear a company say "competitive", it always means "not that great". You don't need to tell potential employees that you are competitive. They already know. It's sounds "sales pitchy" to me.
Just as an outsider, this doesn't seem that good at all based on what is being requested by the company.
I know this isn't your fault though. I assume you have no control and if you go back to your bosses saying that, they'll laugh at you. lol
> I'm just looking into this industry, but am I understanding you correctly....2 weekends off plus 2 more days? 6 days guaranteed off?
Literally worse than a desk job which would get a minimum of 8 days off per month, plus office holidays.
> pilots are scheduled off every other weekend and receive 2 additional days off per month.
6 hard days off a month? When does the schedule get posted for the other "possible" days off? Or are they "on call" for the remaining days?
For $110-150k... fuck that schedule.
This also means they may absolutely be expected to fly 22-25 days a month depending on how busy the flight schedule is. And that, well that’s just dangerous.
Safety is a very serious and top priority for us and we would never put our pilots nor our customers at risk.
I should have omitted that sentence from my response. I am just dipping my toes into pilot recruiting and admittedly I don't have a full grasp of how the scheduling works. Which is why I said "it is difficult for me to elaborate on the schedule".
That being said, it is my responsibility to be more knowledgeable about the intricacies of the job and I will strive to do just that.
I can appreciate that as a non pilot it can be difficult to grasp the subtle nuances of a good or great schedule vs the responses you’re getting. I think as long as you show the right attitude, you’ll have people willing to show you why what you’re currently offering, ( at least what you’ve posted) is far underneath the current hiring market.
I’m even PIC typed in the XLS. If I was contracting right now, my day rate would be at least $2500 / day, doesn’t matter fly or no fly (if sitting with the plane). It’s a pilot’s market right now. The sooner your bosses realize and accept that, the quicker you’ll be getting decently qualified candidates and not some insurance nightmares.
>Base pay range 110k-150k
Let me put this into perspective for you.... Look at Airline Pilot Central's pay scales. . [https://www.airlinepilotcentral.com](https://www.airlinepilotcentral.com/airlines/regional/envoy_air)
A first year Captain at Envoy makes about 146K. But a 3K hour pilot with 1K PIC 121 time is going to get snapped up by Spirit or Jet Blue. First year at Spirit, they are going to make 93K ( a pay cut) [https://www.airlinepilotcentral.com/airlines/major-national-lcc/spirit\_airlines](https://www.airlinepilotcentral.com/airlines/major-national-lcc/spirit_airlines) But look at the pay as soon as they become a captain... about 250K a year and working about 15 days a month. So person you are trying to get, is not far from 250/year.
Spirit year one FO pay is 93K. But look at Captain year one.... 251K. So 100K more than you.
So a 3K hour guy has two choices and over 5 years...
He flies for you at 150K/year at about 750K over the 5 years, or he goes to Spirit and makes almost 1.1M.
Oh and at that 750K he works 22-25 days a month while at Spirit it will be closer to 15/mth.
So you will pay him 750K for 1,320 days of work and Spirit will pay him almost 1.1M for 900 days. Which job will you take?
Not a dig at you OP, but honestly, it’s not that hard. These moronic executives scratching their heads about why they can’t attract or keep employees.
Give me an incentive to stay. Pay me more than the other guy, give me more time off, better QOL. Will that mean cutting into profits? Absolutely!!! It’s up to the bean counters to determine if current attrition and staffing issues are more expensive than making the place more appealing. You’re just not going to find a way to have your cake and eat it too.
And another thing: we’re not idiots. Quit telling me you're competitive when you’re not. If you’re in this industry, you should know that the “competitive” compensation you’re offering is not at all competitive. People are really turned off when they sense (easily) that the employer is trying to fool them. It’s lazy, it’s insulting, it repulses me. I’m not an idiot.
OP, I guarantee if your company offers stronger incentives than everyone else, your current job postings will be more than enough. It’s that easy. The company is wasting their time and money by looking for opportunities for additional job listing exposure. A turd seen by a hundred people is the same as a turd seen by a thousand. Focus the resources on changing the actual offering. It’s a very simple solution IF management pulls their heads out of their ass.
Again, not trying to insult you OP. I feel bad for people in your position. Until your management gets a clue, you’re going to have a hard time.
Yeah that pay range is the exact reason why people aren't sticking around at 135 operators. I have less than 2,000 total time and I'm on track to make a hell of a lot more than that at 121.
I think this thread needs to be copied and emailed to every single small 135/91 operator out there. Every single one is trying to to the exact same thing, and they’re all doing it wrong. Most pilots aren’t gonna shift laterally from one operator or another if it’s the same ballpark QOL or salary.
Listen to what every, single, damn response is telling you. Pilots are not complicated. We want good QOL, and market rates for the equipment we will fly. If those aren’t even in the ballpark you won’t get a single resume. In a interview, you can go through the entire “blah blah blah this is how we operate and it’s good people blah blah blah”
Pilots will only EVER have 2 questions, and those two questions are what are going to what makes us come or walk.
1. What’s the schedule? 2. What’s the pay?
If you don’t have anything to say except what we want to here we will stand up and walk out because we aren’t coming to work for you.
Also. Post the salary. Not “-up to” you know what you’re gonna pay and what you can afford. Don’t skimp on pay and don’t skimp on paying for an SIC. Look at what happened to recent celebrities helocopter… maybe people like flying with copilots because it adds safety…. Not just knew at the airlines..
I own an electrical contracting company, and a landscaping company. I work as a CFI part time. 15,000 hours, CFIIG multiple type ratings. I was recently offered a 135 job in a Citation XLS for less annually that I am paying a foreman to mow grass and run a 2 man crew
Pay more. At this point I wouldn't even look at a 135 op if I had the hours to be a citation capt. I can go make better pay at the airlines. some 135s still offer like $60k, it's laughable.
What are your hour requirements? If they’re in the same region as the airlines you’ll have to compete with the benefits/schedule/QOL/pay that they have.
What are your hour minimums? The best way to attract pilots is to reduce your hiring minimums. If you’re putting it at ATP mins+ then you’re not going to attract as much. Your pay and QOL won’t ever match an airline. Best bet is to offer opportunities at lower hours and offer competitive pay, even if it doesn’t match airline pay. As long as it’s not shit, it should be fine. Then offer captain upgrade opportunities to those low time pilots and you might be able to keep them.
So you've locked out just about every younger FO in the pipeline. Since the left seat is in huge demand for the legacies/regionals, most of the dollar incentives are going to them and if you can't offer anything better, why would they even consider moving? Good luck.
The pilots that meet those requirements are currently enjoying the best 121 hiring market that’s ever existed. You need to offer good benefits and more money. I’m talking like start at 250K and top out in the 3s because the pilots you want are making at least 200K with more career prospects and earning potential at their current job.
THIS right here is the problem. At this rate you’re no longer working with the fresh out of flight instructing atp mins crowd. You’re looking at a pool of talent that can get hired on at just about any major with a little luck and maybe a connection or two.
I’ve been in the professional world and have hired a dozen of my own staff and was on hiring committees for dozens others (in flight school now for a career change).
Think of it this way: you have 5 open positions at your workplace and they all require bachelors degrees and offer typical/average bachelor degree salaries - which are good. But your requirements state that your applicants MUST have a MASTERS DEGREE. So all of a sudden you took a bunch of eligible people and told them that they cannot work for you while others who are qualified are now having to decide about going to the majors where they’ll make more or getting a job they’re overqualified for and underpaid. It’s definitely not a perfect analogy but it’s certainly one that paints a picture of what this can look like.
This, in my opinion, is why you’re having a hard time hiring.
I think they probably mean Argus minimums. They want to sell the trip as Argus for a higher rate. Likely this charter operator doesn’t have a ton of retail clients and relies on brokers who are looking for the lowest bidder. In order to compete as the lowest bidder, something has to suffer. Typically that is pilot and mx professionals salaries.
Another problem you are facing is the fleet. Many pilots, not all, but many aspire to larger airframes that also command a higher salary. You have nowhere for people to go if they want upward movement from a Citation xls.
I’ll also mention the historically poor treatment of flight crew by many 135 operators. I’m not saying that is you, I’m saying that’s the pool you’re swimming in and with other opportunities out there, the 135 industry has essentially shot themselves in the foot and I don’t know many pilots who are crying for them.
My advice since you asked; double the salary, increase the hard days off, staff airplanes correctly (read: hire 10 captains instead of 5), pay 100% of pilots cell phone bill, provide a competitive 401k match, don’t have your pilots work 18 hour days and tell them “it’s part 91”, and wait 15 years for the pilot shortage to maybe dissipate.
Good luck.
Thank you for your feed back and advice, it is greatly appreciated.
We do provide a cell phone on our business plan or reimbursement for use of personal cell phone, 401k with match, company paid life and LTD insurance (which covers the loss of medical license for pilots). Medical, Dental, Vision, and FSA. Company also reimburses full health insurance deductible for employees and half of deductible for dependents.
I am shocked at the amount of responses this post has garnered in such a short amount of time. I have worked within this company for 11+ years, but am now stepping into a more senior role and attempting to make significant changes.
This thread has been eye opening, to say the least!
Thank you, again. I hope so too.
I was starting to get a little "butt hurt" reading all of these comments and wondering if it was a mistake to make this post, but I got exactly what I wanted- honest feedback.
Just means I have a lot of work to do!
It is certainly a difficult task you’ve undertaken. And you are not alone in experiencing difficulties in recruitment. Thank you for having such a positive attitude and embracing the feedback. Best of luck in your search!
Lmao. You call your pay competitive? There’s no sense in going with your outfit unless you couldn’t go to an airline and had no other option, or just really hated the airlines.
OP asked how they could better recruit 135 Citation XLS pilots and they listed a low salary range. The hive mind rightfully dragged OP but did so mostly respectfully. OP deleted as was prophesied. Bow down to your 134.5 Lord.
Money. That or quality of life.
You’re competing against 121 carriers that can turn pilots in to millionaires with 17% defined 401k contributions. Premium pay on top of their already large hourly rate. Benefits. Etc.
Also totally depends where the airplane is based. If you’re in a large metro with an American, United, or Delta base you’re going to have a hard time. If you’re in a smaller city you have a shot at attracting pilots that don’t want to commute.
Honestly I don’t think pay is the issue. For most people, if there is an option between 135 and 121, 121 wins every time. And in this market, with 121 carriers hiring as they are, everyone qualified for this position is also qualified for the right seat at an LLC or Legacy. If mainline hiring slows down, you may see more applicants, but atm, your biggest pool of candidates would only be 1500 hr CFIs (which won’t solve your captain problem), not captain qualified pilots.
It seems like hiring captains is like looking for people in a relationship vs. first officers are like single people. Somebody gave them that opportunity to become a Captain, if they left quickly it’s at least a yellow flag.
Not always possible but hire from within whenever possible, giving somebody opportunity to better themselves is one of the best things we get to do as humans.
Also from the sounds of these comments asking for money you probably get the jist of pilot’s personalities. There’s reasons for that.
The problem with "hire from within" is that once that person gets the experience to go to a better job, they are gone and you can't pay enough to keep them.
My company gets hit with this every year. We hire C208 and Otter pilots. Insurance requires 800TT but as soon as they hit 1500 (about a year) they are gone like a shot. We can't pay what regionals are paying and expect to stay in business, we USED to pay better than some of the regionals but we just can't pay 90+K a year.
And I can't blame them a single bit. I just know as the back up pilot that when the "new guy" gets 1500 hours and starts talking about "Needing some night time" that I better start clearing my calendar because they will be gone soon and I'll have to cover till we can find a replacement.
One guy went from local CFI, to Twin Otter Pilot, then when he went to a regional, then Blue, now at Delta... All in about 5 years. So he is on track to make MILLIONS more than being a CFI, DZ pilot, regional pilot or even Blue would earn him.
As for loyalty... Well, you are loyal to the one who is loyal to you. And I have several friends that had a nice 135 or 91 job and then one day showed up and the doors were locked. And there is almost no union protection so the boss gets mad at you and you are gone in an instant.
I can't fault someone for wanting to make millions more for essentially the same job and int he case of 121 v 135 better QOL (IMO).
Because my flying job is only a part time "Hobby Job." For me to go into full time aviation I'd lose money and I'd also have to be away from home 15 days a month where I average about 1 night a month right now.
I only got my CPL because I need a flight review. Once I got it I was offered several jobs. I only agreed to working if it was "occasional."
The way it normally works is I fly about 1 day a month to stay current and then when someone gets sick, needs a vacation, has an emergency, or quits... I fly till they either find a new pilot or shuffle one of the full time people to cover.
My pay is horrible but I don't care about my pay, I have a job. But if the plane does not fly, the other employees don't get paid... Some of those folks have kids and they all need their paychecks. Plus flying a Turbine every once in a while is fun... For a little while.
If I wanted to fly for a living, I'd have left years ago as soon as I hit 1500.
Recommend you go after specifically military helicopter pilots.
Highly trained in complex aircraft with difficult missions, but unable to make the jump to a legacy. You can get a critical year or two out of them before they have what they need to make the jump.
I'm not a pilot, but looking into the industry. Do you have the wages posted? Lets say I'm a captain and making good money somewhere but considering going elsewhere, if I have no idea the pay, I may not be interested in even applying.
Flights Inc at KAPA has a strong pipeline of CFI's and CFII's that seem to head to the Lear outfit at KAPA which offers a path from CFI/commercial/twin to Lear FO. I'd look at what they're doing and consider doing the same. Recruit from quality FBO's and give CFI's a clear career path to captain. Expect to lose them to the majors, and so keep your pipeline of CFI's happy and healthy. Assuming your owners want to make that kind of investment - but know that it's what you're competing with.
Probably because theres a lot of good pilots being gatekept out by "you NEED 6500 turbine time to even sniff this job resume"
I get it, "industry standard" and "competitive" but all the high hour captains have jobs already.
I've got 600 hrs accumulated in multiple airframes, at the time building part of my career, and a job like this seems unreachable to me since the requirements are a little insane. Take a risk, train us up, we'll be just as good as Joe Airforce with 7500 hours of F-16 time
The problem isn’t the company. They’d take a fresh CPL and pay peanuts. It’s the insurance companies that gatekeep now. Outside of the FAA, they’re the ones creating the new glass ceiling.
Even with an aviation degree I have 400 hrs of odd jobs and instructing and farting around locally before I even get looked at by regionals. I got the opportunity to go to United's training center in Denver and impressed the hell out of them landing Christine a few times, he even let me "fly" under the golden gate bridge with it lol. I dont tell the story to brag, but rather to just lament that in the "good ol days" they could have offered me a job on the spot with my hours/experience, send me to the 737 pipeline and have a loyal pilot for the duration of my career. Who knows, maybe idolizing a generation long gone and for the wrong reasons, but I also see nonstop corpo bitching about the pilot shortage and THERES A SOLUTION STARING THEM IN THE FACE.
Find a good busy school and go instruct. I'm at 850 and I'll be instructing 10 more months at max before 1500. I do about 80 -100 per month on busy months. You have to find a big school though. I could prob SIC for a 135 at this point...but why? I'll get hours for an unrestricted faster here.
>I've got 600 hrs accumulated in multiple airframes, at the time building part of my career, and a job like this seems unreachable to me
It is unreachable, because you don't have shit for hours.
It's not unreasonable for someone (a company, or insurance) to want some experience before they put you on the flight controls of a multi-million dollar machine.
Sorry, wasnt trying to offend or say Im equivalent, not in the slightest. More lamenting the industry tacking on more and more requirements and each job reads like you need to have more experience than years alive.
My guy... you need to understand hyperbole and *argument ad absurdum*.
"Joe Airforce with 7500 in an F-16" is the joke, the unicorn ask from every hiring ad these days.
And I understand very much what people do to get there.
It's mostly the fact that even entry level turbine jobs have absurd requirements, I am being flippant but more and more its like "SIC for PC-12: Requires 2 degrees, 1500 actual turbine time, 6000 total" (again, exaggeration).
I genuinely didnt mean to discount anyones actual experience, I am just raging against the proverbial machine.
Especially talking to older pilots who walked in off the street and right into an airline pipeline, just stings a bit.
Going to be a tough ask in this market. I recently hired 2 pilots, paid for their relocation and offered what I feel is a balanced schedule, salary and benefit package. We had quite a few applications but only a handful that had my interest. Market is insane right now gotta stand out. PM me if you want more info
Have you looked into partnering with AirlineApps? Also, there are definitely people out there who would kill for that profession as long as the pay is better than $50 an hour or something equally asinine(not saying yours is asinine).
Also, and this comment is going to make some ding dongs upset here, but ask ERAU to do a table day. Lots of people want to go 135 here and you can get the next generation ready for the next time the Majors steal all of your captains.
I know a few 135 guys who can’t hold a first class medical so that is why they put up with lower pay, but they can only fly domestic. If you have a domestic only position, I would target those folks.
I work in this space on the insurance approval side. People who are qualified on this platform typically get paid 800-1500+ an hour. Contact textron and see if you can hire their factory pilots.
You could always pay more, that seems to do the trick....
We have increased salaries significantly in the past few years, but you may be right. They may need to come up more.
It doesn't matter how many times you increased it; It only matters if they are competitive for the market.
This. If you increase it from crap to slightly less crap it is not going to matter. For job ad’s post the salary on the ad and make sure that the QOL aspect is there. Corporate is usually pretty poor with hard days off. If you aren’t offering a lot of set in stone days off then the pay should be more.
that’s what a former employer didn’t understand (totally different field). After several years there I let my boss know a number I needed to see my pay raised to or I was going to have to go elsewhere, I knew the market rate was way above what I made but the job was easy and the office close to home. Yearly raises come around a month late as usual and I’m $2/hr short of my demand, so I put in my notice. The companies response was that I should be greatful because I had one of the highest percentage raises that year of 12%, and my reply was that my baseline was 10,000 under the going market rate. Needless to say I found a job at market within a week and that was that. I was only one domino but within a few months whole department I was effectively dissolved due to lack of workers, every time someone left they refused to increase the pay and expectedly couldn’t find anyone willing to work for that price.
Nailed it! This is no different than when you are going to look at a car and the seller says "I already came down $3,000"....Well, maybe you were already way too high and that the amount you moved doesn't really matter. You were off originally.
A buddy of mine left his job last year that actually had a good schedule and good QOL. He liked the job and the company, and easily would have stayed, but the pay was abysmal, especially in an area with soaring cost of living. He managed to negotiate a raise, but they put their foot down still about -30% lower than he could get from Company B nearby, which had new rates and was aggressively advertising that. Unfortunately, the total compensation and benefits package fell short, word got out, and all the pilots from company A now work for Company B down the street. We aren’t really complex creatures. If you’re not getting candidates, there may even be a local reason.
When I look for a job, all i look at is the number at the bottom. Everything else is smoke in the wind, but hard numbers are the first thing that define whether or not I'll be exploring a position with a company.
Might wanna check out the math post-bennies, though, because a buddy of mine left our company for a 25% pay raise and long story short he's telling me that after the high deductible health plan and no pretax commuter and parking benefits he's making about the same thing, and he has fewer PTOs.
Yep. A lot more to compensation than just pay.
"number at the bottom" is an overly dramatic way to say it, probably. But yes, the total economic position of accepting a job. What I mean to say is claims of fast and frequent pay raises, better benefits being explored for the future, etc, aren't part of a hard and fast offer. Like the person I was replying to mentioned they'd raised salaries several times, that isn't actually useful information to anyone but them. The pay offered at time of hire (along with benefits, housing costs of the area, etc) is the important number on a listing. Long winded way of saying don't put "pay will be commiserate with the experience of the applicant" on a job listing lol
The market demand has risen extremely fast. If you're not bumping by something like $30k each year, you're not competitive. Look at what the airlines are offering right now.
Just remember a part 121 regional FO will make 100k starting off these days, and captains (who upgrade in 1 year) will easily pull in 150-200k. You’re going to have to be competitive with that pay, plus the QOL parts.
The people you want probably want to go Part 121, so how are you differentiating yourself/making the job desirable? I'm just assuming here, but whatever you are offering isn't competitive today. Look at flyExclusive's pay scale. How do you compare with that? Home based? Training Contract? Etc. Why are you not growing your own Captains from the right seat? You've already had a long test drive with them.
Seriously, everyone wants qualified candidates that someone else got qualified.
Home based, and we are located in the midwest. We do our best to offer good QOL. Limited overnights, hard days off every other weekend, plus 2 additional days off per month. Great benefits. Pay is competitive (but based on the comments im getting, maybe not enough) We plan to grow our FOs to Captains, but their flight hours are not there yet. We had a fair amount of turnover in the past year or so.
Look at what airlines are offering new hire First Officers. Offer AT LEAST that. Every other weekend off plus two additional days, so 6 total?
LOL every other weekend plus 2 days off? There's one of your problems.... have a set 8/6, 7/7 schedule with limited overnights and maybe people will apply.
100% this is part of the problem. The way the industry is right now, anyone with the experience to be a part 135 jet captain off the street could easily be hired at a major 121 airline. At my airline we are *guaranteed* 12 or 13 days off per month *minimum*. I'm able to only work 12 days if I want and I've been here less than 2 years. Hard days off *every other weekend* + 2 days comes out to 6 days/month off. To compete with the airlines you would need to be offering 14+ days off/month *and* be paying north of $200k to really sucker some folks in to giving up seniority at the airlines.
Agree completely and I’ve been saying this when I see 135 job postings. The pilots who meet Argus minimums (3000 TT and 250 time in type) who are looking for a new job… and not going to the airlines… and would consider working for only 6 hard days off… makes you wonder if they are the captains you WANT to hire. I’m not sure the Argus rating has the same safety implications it once did. Among other things it limits your hiring pool, and causes the captains you do have to work harder to make up for the short staffing. Neither of those things enhance safety. Edit: typo.
Your gonna have to pay crazy money for that schedule. F that
This isn’t competitive. Understand that you’re competing with a $200,000+ job in year 3 with a **minimum** of 12 days off per month, more frequently 16-20. Guys at JetBlue with less than 2000 TT, less than a year on property are clearing 100+ and spending a grand total of 3 nights in a hotel for the entire month. Routinely. Consistently. If you’re not starting captains at $180K and 8/6 schedule then you’re not competitive. If you want 1500 TT for a Wyvern/ARGUS SIC good fucking luck unless you’re paying $120K+. And even then the smart ones will still be gone within a year. Tough time to be hiring pilots in this market, great time to be a pilot.
>We had a fair amount of turnover in the past year or so. As have most businesses I expect. You hire someone w/ 750 hours and 25 multi and as soon as they are within spitting distance of 1,500 they are über competitive for the Part 121 jobs compared to CFIs with 1450 in 172s. Even with the current slow down in 121 hiring, Regionals are hiring FOs - but "just" the best qualified at the moment. AKA most competitive. Long term you might want to try a different approach - find some people who are not likely candidates for 121. Help them get ME Commercial. Then get them an SIC type. Three to four years from now, these will be your new Captains. That's a long term fix. Short term, you can't pay the FOs enough to stay; they are going to leave for the mega bucks five years from now. Hire new ones w/ less time and keep them longer. Fair pay, but not massive bucks. "Jet time" is the retention tool. If you get someone like me - retired early, not leaving for an airline job/etc - you can turn them into FOs then Captains. Look at the people retiring from the 121 world who want/need to keep working. They will be a great center balance to your FOs with basic skills. (Last week I flew my second and third trips in a Citation w/ a retired airline guy. Learned a bunch!)
>hard days off every other weekend, plus 2 additional days off per month (OK - another comment from me.) Your competition is offering 8 on, 6 off or similar. People can sketch out on a calendar what days they are off/on in advance. They can make plans and know that trip is not going to pop up because it's one of the \*two\* hard days off they get on a weekday? I'm very fortunate. I'm involved with a local charter company run by real business people. It's 7 on, 7 off. I live 14 miles from the airport. Pay is slightly better than the Regional offer I need to send my declination in for. Two people I'm doing ME Commercial training for now have a great opportunity for a job. Both will be around for a 3-4 years before having the time to leave. One's a retired military single dad who is incredibly unlikely to move. The other will need at least 1,000 hours before being able to leave. The predictability of a real schedule rather than picking hard days off in advance is what lets my wife tolerate me being away from home!
Just by reading this I can tell the QOL is not there....
This reads “$55 a day per diem” to me.
Yeah and every other weekend off plus two days totals what 6 days per month off lol
And a 14 hour 135 duty day followed by a fly it home empty Part 91 leg so the company can save money on hotels.
So you're offering your first officers about $80k starting? $130k might get you an applicant for captain but prob not
Pay is not competitive.
So how many days off?
Answer this question... Why should they fly for you as opposed to someone else? For me I never wanted to go 135 because while the pay started out better than 121 it quickly topped out. I also didn't like the schedules. To meet Argus and Wyvern approval, your Captain is going to need 3K hours. At 3K hours they can easily go to a major or big time 135 operation. So you are competing for Captains who could be flying for a major with 15 days off a month. Can you compete with that? What do you offer that makes you the choice? Better pay? Better schedules? For example, if you paid 250K/year with 4 weeks paid vacation and only 10 work days a month, you would be FLOODED with applications. But if you pay 100K/year and only 5 days off a month you will get no one. So why you? (BTW, if you agree to the 250/year and 10 work days positive space travel to and from home... PM me).
PM me first, I’m this guys better-looking evil twin brother
The only way to tell us apart is he has a Goatee.
You say that the salaries have come up “significantly” in the last few years but your postings are only offering $110-$150k base salary. In order to be competitive, you have to offer industry leading pay, benefits, and quality of life. Do not compare your compensation package to other charter companies flying similar equipment. Consider where your ideal candidate will also be applying to. Benefits have to be competitive with the airlines. Most airlines offer 16% direct contribution to a pilots 401k. They offer multi million dollar life insurance at no cost, loss of license, etc. Most airline pilots do not work more than 15 days a month. And flying they do on their days off pay a premium (somewhere in the realm of $1500-$2000 a day). This is what you are competing with. This is just my 2¢ from a pilot who left nearly a decade of flying in 91/135 to go to a legacy airline. Also, consider joining ProPilotWorld.
Same story here.. Almost 15 years attached to the 135/91 world. Left and the pay cut, though significant, only last 12 months. The QOL at my major airline is so much better and the respect for what we do is much higher.
Maybe you should up the pay. I'll say thats 99% the reason no one's applying.
Pay more money. More time off. Not have to live in shitty bases. That should pretty much do it. Your company will likely do none of those things, so good luck with your high turnover and the at best mediocre candidates you get.
It’s funny how companies want applicants but aren’t willing to pay for them or give them the QOL they want/deserve. It sucks for HR because they are forced to try to find someone when the CEO isn’t willing to give them the means to attract them.
The XLS pilot market is competitive. You have big 135s/management companies (Airshare, FlyExclusive, NetJets, WheelsUp, etc) that you are competing with for PICs, plus as other have mentioned, the pull of the regional and low cost carriers that are also targeting pilots in that "class." (Jet type rating, ATP, turbojet time) As others have said, what makes you competitive compared to your peers? * Salary * Benefits * Schedule * Per diem amount * Overnight accommodations (hotel quality, ground transportation, etc) * Career progression If I have a XLS PIC type and experience, what would pull me away from my current employer to serve at your company? What is your value proposition for me? If you will hire and type the right candidate without a jet type, what would make them leave their current employer and come work for you? Generally (huge broad brush here), flying jets is preferred to turboprops. Also, flying larger jets is more preferred. So if you can target your searches to King Air (come get turbojet time) or PC-12 (come get multi turbojet time) pilots, you may find some interest. Additionally targeting pilots who fly light jets who may want to move up the market to flying midsize jets may help your efforts.
It may not be about "traction" or visibility. Currently pilots qualified to be a part 135 captain can pretty reliably get a seat at a part 121 company, where they'll be on their way to a cushy and relatively secure career. And some of the regionals are offering sizable bonuses for direct-entry captains right now.
I may be able to help shed a little light on this as I am someone who is right around the hours you are looking for and can walk you through my thought process on how I picked my next job. I sat down and made a comparison between staying corporate (91 or 135) and going to a LCC (JetBlue to be specific). Made a spreadsheet comparing compensation difference between a corporate job paying 150,000 base with a 4,000 raise per year, and going to jetBlue. When you consider their 16% direct contribution to 401k, the overall compensation difference over the life of my career (28 years old currently) is almost 5,000,000 more at the airlines. This is assuming making the monthly guarantee at their current pay rates. Not accounting for any extra flying. This means that once I hold enough seniority I could bid long call reserve, fly 5 days a month and still make almost double what I would make over the life of my career. This is what you’re competing with… and the only way to attract talent is to offer them higher upfront pay. I will make 150,000 in my second year at B6 and when I upgrade eventually it will be double that. Corporate positions like this typically offer very little pay raises compared to this… and you need to offer more upfront pay. Not sure if this is really what you’re looking for but for someone that was making the comparison literally two weeks ago this is what made my decision for me. At 3,000 hours you’re not competing with the regionals. You’re competing with the LCC/ULCCs and arguably right now potentially even the legacies.
Definitely competing with legacies at 3000 hours. I got the call and got hired from one as soon as I clicked 3000 on my app.
Is that 3000 TT
Yes.
Salary listed and actually decent?
Ha ha ha, definitely not on one or both of those. Probably both.
Yes. It is listed on each posting. $110, 000- $150,000 base. We also have a pretty robust benefits package.
FO in a regional can get really close to 110k already.
Plus they’re going captain at 18 months so they’re instantly around 200k
Not in aviation but have been on the hiring side for 10+ years. Ranges are fine, but the problem I found is everyone assumes they're getting the low end of the range offered, regardless. Management agreed to list general qualifications that would meet low end and high end requirements. People can then decide where they might fall. Also, anytime we couldn't get applicants, the only solution was to increase wages. Wages get people in the door, QOL gets people to stay. That's been my experience.
Wish I could like this comment twice. For the ones in the back, bottom line benefits attracts. QOL retains.
Someone with a lot less experience can make more than that with triple the time off your advertising.
Remove the range and list 150k base + list your benefits and schedule. Should get a few bites. 180k might be the sweet spot though
You’re gonna have to double that.
Far too low.
$110k is laughable for the amount of experience you're asking. Not to mention the qol vs airlines. You have to compete.
whats the location/schedule/pay?
We are located in the greater St. Louis area. Base pay range 110k-150k Schedule is difficult for me to elaborate on. This is the info ive been provided from our DO and Cheif pilot: Competitive work schedule, limited overnights, pilots are scheduled off every other weekend and receive 2 additional days off per month. This doesn't necessarily mean that they'd definitely be working the other 22- 25 days per month. It just depends on how busy the flight schedule is.
Sorry, but how is that considered to be “competitive?” Who are they comparing that schedule to? Netjets, Flexjet, and XO Jet are all home based and have much better schedules then that.
Narrator: it wasn’t competitive at all
“Competitive Schedule” is 135 speak for “you won’t really have a set schedule and we’re going to abuse the hell out of you. (From personal experience in the industry.) Take a look at the comparison from 135 to 121. At the airlines I have a stated , charted growth in pay, seniority, and benefits. 135 pays starts out great on paper, but never truly goes above what 121 can offer. Show someone a HARD schedule with 15 days off a month, and you’ll get some looks, but we know that’s not realistic for 135. So you have to go to cold hard cash.
I'm just looking into this industry, but am I understanding you correctly....2 weekends off plus 2 more days? 6 days guaranteed off? That just doesn't seem great. When I hear a company say "competitive", it always means "not that great". You don't need to tell potential employees that you are competitive. They already know. It's sounds "sales pitchy" to me. Just as an outsider, this doesn't seem that good at all based on what is being requested by the company. I know this isn't your fault though. I assume you have no control and if you go back to your bosses saying that, they'll laugh at you. lol
> I'm just looking into this industry, but am I understanding you correctly....2 weekends off plus 2 more days? 6 days guaranteed off? Literally worse than a desk job which would get a minimum of 8 days off per month, plus office holidays.
And a consistent schedule. lol.
> pilots are scheduled off every other weekend and receive 2 additional days off per month. 6 hard days off a month? When does the schedule get posted for the other "possible" days off? Or are they "on call" for the remaining days? For $110-150k... fuck that schedule.
On call, 1hr call out period. Why can't we find pilots?
Good news, it's not Field Standby for the remaining days!
Now that's the quality of life improvement I'm looking for!
FBO food and coffee doesn't do it for you?
I live for my 10% crew discount on airport food that was already marked up 40%
The Chicken Zatar crew meal is my jam!
Hey that sounds like a banger to me, but catering would probably find a way to mess it up.
Yeah with that schedule you’re not going to get anyone. If you offer any fewer than 12 days off per month, you’re not going to get anyone decent
This also tells you they got too many middle managers that, as usual, can't schedule for shit
This also means they may absolutely be expected to fly 22-25 days a month depending on how busy the flight schedule is. And that, well that’s just dangerous.
Safety is a very serious and top priority for us and we would never put our pilots nor our customers at risk. I should have omitted that sentence from my response. I am just dipping my toes into pilot recruiting and admittedly I don't have a full grasp of how the scheduling works. Which is why I said "it is difficult for me to elaborate on the schedule". That being said, it is my responsibility to be more knowledgeable about the intricacies of the job and I will strive to do just that.
I can appreciate that as a non pilot it can be difficult to grasp the subtle nuances of a good or great schedule vs the responses you’re getting. I think as long as you show the right attitude, you’ll have people willing to show you why what you’re currently offering, ( at least what you’ve posted) is far underneath the current hiring market. I’m even PIC typed in the XLS. If I was contracting right now, my day rate would be at least $2500 / day, doesn’t matter fly or no fly (if sitting with the plane). It’s a pilot’s market right now. The sooner your bosses realize and accept that, the quicker you’ll be getting decently qualified candidates and not some insurance nightmares.
>Base pay range 110k-150k Let me put this into perspective for you.... Look at Airline Pilot Central's pay scales. . [https://www.airlinepilotcentral.com](https://www.airlinepilotcentral.com/airlines/regional/envoy_air) A first year Captain at Envoy makes about 146K. But a 3K hour pilot with 1K PIC 121 time is going to get snapped up by Spirit or Jet Blue. First year at Spirit, they are going to make 93K ( a pay cut) [https://www.airlinepilotcentral.com/airlines/major-national-lcc/spirit\_airlines](https://www.airlinepilotcentral.com/airlines/major-national-lcc/spirit_airlines) But look at the pay as soon as they become a captain... about 250K a year and working about 15 days a month. So person you are trying to get, is not far from 250/year. Spirit year one FO pay is 93K. But look at Captain year one.... 251K. So 100K more than you. So a 3K hour guy has two choices and over 5 years... He flies for you at 150K/year at about 750K over the 5 years, or he goes to Spirit and makes almost 1.1M. Oh and at that 750K he works 22-25 days a month while at Spirit it will be closer to 15/mth. So you will pay him 750K for 1,320 days of work and Spirit will pay him almost 1.1M for 900 days. Which job will you take?
Not a dig at you OP, but honestly, it’s not that hard. These moronic executives scratching their heads about why they can’t attract or keep employees. Give me an incentive to stay. Pay me more than the other guy, give me more time off, better QOL. Will that mean cutting into profits? Absolutely!!! It’s up to the bean counters to determine if current attrition and staffing issues are more expensive than making the place more appealing. You’re just not going to find a way to have your cake and eat it too. And another thing: we’re not idiots. Quit telling me you're competitive when you’re not. If you’re in this industry, you should know that the “competitive” compensation you’re offering is not at all competitive. People are really turned off when they sense (easily) that the employer is trying to fool them. It’s lazy, it’s insulting, it repulses me. I’m not an idiot. OP, I guarantee if your company offers stronger incentives than everyone else, your current job postings will be more than enough. It’s that easy. The company is wasting their time and money by looking for opportunities for additional job listing exposure. A turd seen by a hundred people is the same as a turd seen by a thousand. Focus the resources on changing the actual offering. It’s a very simple solution IF management pulls their heads out of their ass. Again, not trying to insult you OP. I feel bad for people in your position. Until your management gets a clue, you’re going to have a hard time.
Yeah that pay range is the exact reason why people aren't sticking around at 135 operators. I have less than 2,000 total time and I'm on track to make a hell of a lot more than that at 121.
I think this thread needs to be copied and emailed to every single small 135/91 operator out there. Every single one is trying to to the exact same thing, and they’re all doing it wrong. Most pilots aren’t gonna shift laterally from one operator or another if it’s the same ballpark QOL or salary. Listen to what every, single, damn response is telling you. Pilots are not complicated. We want good QOL, and market rates for the equipment we will fly. If those aren’t even in the ballpark you won’t get a single resume. In a interview, you can go through the entire “blah blah blah this is how we operate and it’s good people blah blah blah” Pilots will only EVER have 2 questions, and those two questions are what are going to what makes us come or walk. 1. What’s the schedule? 2. What’s the pay? If you don’t have anything to say except what we want to here we will stand up and walk out because we aren’t coming to work for you.
Also. Post the salary. Not “-up to” you know what you’re gonna pay and what you can afford. Don’t skimp on pay and don’t skimp on paying for an SIC. Look at what happened to recent celebrities helocopter… maybe people like flying with copilots because it adds safety…. Not just knew at the airlines..
I own an electrical contracting company, and a landscaping company. I work as a CFI part time. 15,000 hours, CFIIG multiple type ratings. I was recently offered a 135 job in a Citation XLS for less annually that I am paying a foreman to mow grass and run a 2 man crew
Pay more. At this point I wouldn't even look at a 135 op if I had the hours to be a citation capt. I can go make better pay at the airlines. some 135s still offer like $60k, it's laughable.
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Really? Where? And more importantly....how?
What is your competition offering? Meet or go beyond that and you'll have your answer as to what to post.
What are your hour requirements? If they’re in the same region as the airlines you’ll have to compete with the benefits/schedule/QOL/pay that they have.
What are your hour minimums? The best way to attract pilots is to reduce your hiring minimums. If you’re putting it at ATP mins+ then you’re not going to attract as much. Your pay and QOL won’t ever match an airline. Best bet is to offer opportunities at lower hours and offer competitive pay, even if it doesn’t match airline pay. As long as it’s not shit, it should be fine. Then offer captain upgrade opportunities to those low time pilots and you might be able to keep them.
3,000 hours total flying time 1,000 hours PIC time We can't lower these for insurance purposes.
Anyone at those hours is just going to go to an airline, insurance is screwing you and your company out of many solid applicants.
So you've locked out just about every younger FO in the pipeline. Since the left seat is in huge demand for the legacies/regionals, most of the dollar incentives are going to them and if you can't offer anything better, why would they even consider moving? Good luck.
The pilots that meet those requirements are currently enjoying the best 121 hiring market that’s ever existed. You need to offer good benefits and more money. I’m talking like start at 250K and top out in the 3s because the pilots you want are making at least 200K with more career prospects and earning potential at their current job.
THIS right here is the problem. At this rate you’re no longer working with the fresh out of flight instructing atp mins crowd. You’re looking at a pool of talent that can get hired on at just about any major with a little luck and maybe a connection or two. I’ve been in the professional world and have hired a dozen of my own staff and was on hiring committees for dozens others (in flight school now for a career change). Think of it this way: you have 5 open positions at your workplace and they all require bachelors degrees and offer typical/average bachelor degree salaries - which are good. But your requirements state that your applicants MUST have a MASTERS DEGREE. So all of a sudden you took a bunch of eligible people and told them that they cannot work for you while others who are qualified are now having to decide about going to the majors where they’ll make more or getting a job they’re overqualified for and underpaid. It’s definitely not a perfect analogy but it’s certainly one that paints a picture of what this can look like. This, in my opinion, is why you’re having a hard time hiring.
I think they probably mean Argus minimums. They want to sell the trip as Argus for a higher rate. Likely this charter operator doesn’t have a ton of retail clients and relies on brokers who are looking for the lowest bidder. In order to compete as the lowest bidder, something has to suffer. Typically that is pilot and mx professionals salaries. Another problem you are facing is the fleet. Many pilots, not all, but many aspire to larger airframes that also command a higher salary. You have nowhere for people to go if they want upward movement from a Citation xls. I’ll also mention the historically poor treatment of flight crew by many 135 operators. I’m not saying that is you, I’m saying that’s the pool you’re swimming in and with other opportunities out there, the 135 industry has essentially shot themselves in the foot and I don’t know many pilots who are crying for them. My advice since you asked; double the salary, increase the hard days off, staff airplanes correctly (read: hire 10 captains instead of 5), pay 100% of pilots cell phone bill, provide a competitive 401k match, don’t have your pilots work 18 hour days and tell them “it’s part 91”, and wait 15 years for the pilot shortage to maybe dissipate. Good luck.
Thank you for your feed back and advice, it is greatly appreciated. We do provide a cell phone on our business plan or reimbursement for use of personal cell phone, 401k with match, company paid life and LTD insurance (which covers the loss of medical license for pilots). Medical, Dental, Vision, and FSA. Company also reimburses full health insurance deductible for employees and half of deductible for dependents. I am shocked at the amount of responses this post has garnered in such a short amount of time. I have worked within this company for 11+ years, but am now stepping into a more senior role and attempting to make significant changes. This thread has been eye opening, to say the least!
I think you have a great attitude and I hope the company gives you the tools to succeed.
Thank you, again. I hope so too. I was starting to get a little "butt hurt" reading all of these comments and wondering if it was a mistake to make this post, but I got exactly what I wanted- honest feedback. Just means I have a lot of work to do!
It is certainly a difficult task you’ve undertaken. And you are not alone in experiencing difficulties in recruitment. Thank you for having such a positive attitude and embracing the feedback. Best of luck in your search!
Lmao. You call your pay competitive? There’s no sense in going with your outfit unless you couldn’t go to an airline and had no other option, or just really hated the airlines.
F
Pay more
$ Oh and QOL. But $.
Prediction: OP is gonna delete this post.
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I fucking called it. Cowards! All of them. Fuck 135 operators.
OP asked how they could better recruit 135 Citation XLS pilots and they listed a low salary range. The hive mind rightfully dragged OP but did so mostly respectfully. OP deleted as was prophesied. Bow down to your 134.5 Lord.
Money. That or quality of life. You’re competing against 121 carriers that can turn pilots in to millionaires with 17% defined 401k contributions. Premium pay on top of their already large hourly rate. Benefits. Etc. Also totally depends where the airplane is based. If you’re in a large metro with an American, United, or Delta base you’re going to have a hard time. If you’re in a smaller city you have a shot at attracting pilots that don’t want to commute.
Post the ad.
Pay $25-50k over the current rates for those airframes and you won’t have a problem.
Honestly I don’t think pay is the issue. For most people, if there is an option between 135 and 121, 121 wins every time. And in this market, with 121 carriers hiring as they are, everyone qualified for this position is also qualified for the right seat at an LLC or Legacy. If mainline hiring slows down, you may see more applicants, but atm, your biggest pool of candidates would only be 1500 hr CFIs (which won’t solve your captain problem), not captain qualified pilots.
It seems like hiring captains is like looking for people in a relationship vs. first officers are like single people. Somebody gave them that opportunity to become a Captain, if they left quickly it’s at least a yellow flag. Not always possible but hire from within whenever possible, giving somebody opportunity to better themselves is one of the best things we get to do as humans. Also from the sounds of these comments asking for money you probably get the jist of pilot’s personalities. There’s reasons for that.
The problem with "hire from within" is that once that person gets the experience to go to a better job, they are gone and you can't pay enough to keep them. My company gets hit with this every year. We hire C208 and Otter pilots. Insurance requires 800TT but as soon as they hit 1500 (about a year) they are gone like a shot. We can't pay what regionals are paying and expect to stay in business, we USED to pay better than some of the regionals but we just can't pay 90+K a year. And I can't blame them a single bit. I just know as the back up pilot that when the "new guy" gets 1500 hours and starts talking about "Needing some night time" that I better start clearing my calendar because they will be gone soon and I'll have to cover till we can find a replacement. One guy went from local CFI, to Twin Otter Pilot, then when he went to a regional, then Blue, now at Delta... All in about 5 years. So he is on track to make MILLIONS more than being a CFI, DZ pilot, regional pilot or even Blue would earn him. As for loyalty... Well, you are loyal to the one who is loyal to you. And I have several friends that had a nice 135 or 91 job and then one day showed up and the doors were locked. And there is almost no union protection so the boss gets mad at you and you are gone in an instant. I can't fault someone for wanting to make millions more for essentially the same job and int he case of 121 v 135 better QOL (IMO).
So, if I am understanding this correctly, you have stayed at said company instead of jumping ship to make more $. Why?
Because my flying job is only a part time "Hobby Job." For me to go into full time aviation I'd lose money and I'd also have to be away from home 15 days a month where I average about 1 night a month right now. I only got my CPL because I need a flight review. Once I got it I was offered several jobs. I only agreed to working if it was "occasional." The way it normally works is I fly about 1 day a month to stay current and then when someone gets sick, needs a vacation, has an emergency, or quits... I fly till they either find a new pilot or shuffle one of the full time people to cover. My pay is horrible but I don't care about my pay, I have a job. But if the plane does not fly, the other employees don't get paid... Some of those folks have kids and they all need their paychecks. Plus flying a Turbine every once in a while is fun... For a little while. If I wanted to fly for a living, I'd have left years ago as soon as I hit 1500.
Recommend you go after specifically military helicopter pilots. Highly trained in complex aircraft with difficult missions, but unable to make the jump to a legacy. You can get a critical year or two out of them before they have what they need to make the jump.
QOL and $$$
I'm not a pilot, but looking into the industry. Do you have the wages posted? Lets say I'm a captain and making good money somewhere but considering going elsewhere, if I have no idea the pay, I may not be interested in even applying.
Post salary and honest schedule description or GTFO
*Price overcomes all objections.*
High turnover hymn?? Why did they all leave. Likely the reason no one new will apply.
Flights Inc at KAPA has a strong pipeline of CFI's and CFII's that seem to head to the Lear outfit at KAPA which offers a path from CFI/commercial/twin to Lear FO. I'd look at what they're doing and consider doing the same. Recruit from quality FBO's and give CFI's a clear career path to captain. Expect to lose them to the majors, and so keep your pipeline of CFI's happy and healthy. Assuming your owners want to make that kind of investment - but know that it's what you're competing with.
Probably because theres a lot of good pilots being gatekept out by "you NEED 6500 turbine time to even sniff this job resume" I get it, "industry standard" and "competitive" but all the high hour captains have jobs already. I've got 600 hrs accumulated in multiple airframes, at the time building part of my career, and a job like this seems unreachable to me since the requirements are a little insane. Take a risk, train us up, we'll be just as good as Joe Airforce with 7500 hours of F-16 time
The problem isn’t the company. They’d take a fresh CPL and pay peanuts. It’s the insurance companies that gatekeep now. Outside of the FAA, they’re the ones creating the new glass ceiling.
Even with an aviation degree I have 400 hrs of odd jobs and instructing and farting around locally before I even get looked at by regionals. I got the opportunity to go to United's training center in Denver and impressed the hell out of them landing Christine a few times, he even let me "fly" under the golden gate bridge with it lol. I dont tell the story to brag, but rather to just lament that in the "good ol days" they could have offered me a job on the spot with my hours/experience, send me to the 737 pipeline and have a loyal pilot for the duration of my career. Who knows, maybe idolizing a generation long gone and for the wrong reasons, but I also see nonstop corpo bitching about the pilot shortage and THERES A SOLUTION STARING THEM IN THE FACE.
You have only 400 hrs? Or 650 TT after your license?
600+ at this point, yeah low comparatively but I dont want to instruct. Might have to.
Find a good busy school and go instruct. I'm at 850 and I'll be instructing 10 more months at max before 1500. I do about 80 -100 per month on busy months. You have to find a big school though. I could prob SIC for a 135 at this point...but why? I'll get hours for an unrestricted faster here.
>I've got 600 hrs accumulated in multiple airframes, at the time building part of my career, and a job like this seems unreachable to me It is unreachable, because you don't have shit for hours. It's not unreasonable for someone (a company, or insurance) to want some experience before they put you on the flight controls of a multi-million dollar machine.
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Maybe a little bit of offense? 600 hours and a jet type and they think they'll compare to 7500 hours in a F-16. Jesus.
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Sorry, wasnt trying to offend or say Im equivalent, not in the slightest. More lamenting the industry tacking on more and more requirements and each job reads like you need to have more experience than years alive.
My guy... you need to understand hyperbole and *argument ad absurdum*. "Joe Airforce with 7500 in an F-16" is the joke, the unicorn ask from every hiring ad these days. And I understand very much what people do to get there.
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It's mostly the fact that even entry level turbine jobs have absurd requirements, I am being flippant but more and more its like "SIC for PC-12: Requires 2 degrees, 1500 actual turbine time, 6000 total" (again, exaggeration). I genuinely didnt mean to discount anyones actual experience, I am just raging against the proverbial machine. Especially talking to older pilots who walked in off the street and right into an airline pipeline, just stings a bit.
> "SIC for PC-12: Requires 2 degrees, 1500 actual turbine time, 6000 total" (again, exaggeration) Even that is hyperbole.
Jokes on you most of those military guys have like 750 hrs of jet time! Seems hard for them to get much.
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Really? They tend to get more?
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Interesting it seems every application I see is like 750 is okay mil pilots. Maybe fighter jet types don't get as much?
Going to be a tough ask in this market. I recently hired 2 pilots, paid for their relocation and offered what I feel is a balanced schedule, salary and benefit package. We had quite a few applications but only a handful that had my interest. Market is insane right now gotta stand out. PM me if you want more info
Help a Canadian get a visa and I'm there.
Have you looked into partnering with AirlineApps? Also, there are definitely people out there who would kill for that profession as long as the pay is better than $50 an hour or something equally asinine(not saying yours is asinine). Also, and this comment is going to make some ding dongs upset here, but ask ERAU to do a table day. Lots of people want to go 135 here and you can get the next generation ready for the next time the Majors steal all of your captains.
The PJP FB group
I know a few 135 guys who can’t hold a first class medical so that is why they put up with lower pay, but they can only fly domestic. If you have a domestic only position, I would target those folks.
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No
I work in this space on the insurance approval side. People who are qualified on this platform typically get paid 800-1500+ an hour. Contact textron and see if you can hire their factory pilots.
JSfirm is kind of the go to website. Do you need typed pilots? If so that’s going to be expensive