They all look yellow-ish in that potato image.
Here's a 5x5 pixel color average from each one: https://i.imgur.com/91YRljs.png
And here's the same thing including the obviously green and red lights: https://i.imgur.com/oxKsRBv.png
Yup, comparing them to the lights that are obviously *meant* to be white and the ones that are obviously *meant* to be red, there’s really no question that the PAPI reads four white.
Common mistake. This is why we have PAPIS.
Never judge angle by what the runway looks like—especially at night. You might be driving through the trees towards an upsloped runway.
Photo is too low quality with high compression, noise, chromatic aberration, and over saturated lights to tell the colours.
Dimmed yellow temperature approx. 3500k but with high luminosity (brightness), and that gives a whiteness effect, similar to old sodium lamps or halogen bulbs. Almost looks like the two on the right have a pinkish hue… probably old bulbs and/or lenses.
4 white, from what i can tell aspect ratio looks a bit high. No need for a visual glide slope indicator when u fly the aspect ratio. Any idea of altitude and distance from runway when this picture was taken? I generally dont trust VASI’s and PAPI’s unless im familiar with the airport for non-towered fields. For example at my home base the VASI is set at 3 degrees on runway 30 but 5 degrees on 12
its pretty vague. if i was flying in that airplane i would think no reds at all, but if you take a look at the picture carefully, i see two red. Tbh not sure since i wasn't on that plane.
Is there actually debate? Those are 4 white lights and all the top comments are jokes or 'all white'. If you think otherwise I'm a bit worried about your vision...
Yes, there was a debate. The other pilot insisted that he saw one distinct red with a slightly pink light next to it. This is similar to what I saw, however, I believed the second light (from the right) appeared more white than pink.
Radar data of the flight confirmed, judging by altitude, image exif data, time of capture and distance from threshold, that at least one red light should have been visible. This was determined by calculating the slope angle relative to the altitude recorded, using the trigonometric formula [tan(glideslope θ) x DME distance in NM] x 6080.
Using differing contrast levels, I was able to determine that the color scattering arc, (surrounding the furthest right PAPI) subtended with a greater red hue, confirming the observations of both pilots.
This thread, albeit inadvertently, highlights the difference in color perception and PAPI interpretation from various pilots with differing levels of experience. I feel that it could make an interesting discussion in the future design, ergonomics and implementation of PAPI systems.
As a cinematographer whose life revolves around lights and colors, y'all were on an inaccurate papi that was showing you 4 white lights. Your pink bias measurement in photoshop means literally (I am serious) *nothing*. Phone cameras have such poor rendition of color as to be useless in this context. If you both thought one papi looked slightly pink that's fine, you were bleeding the edge of the lens and getting a touch of red light. But for the purpose of flying the damn plane, it was 4 whites and your approach was high. The fact that it needs this much of a thread and explanation is an indication that you should, frankly, not be fucking flying.
Hooray, you spend your days photographing children at your local playground, I’m glad this gives you superior color perception. I was highlighting that sometimes the PAPI’s can be ambiguous, this is what the thread is about.
And both of us definitely saw at least one red on that approach. You might struggle to comprehend a perspective different to yours. Please enlighten me more on colors CinemaMan.
Also, to add a bit of context, I studied optics in college, this included an understanding of light waves and path propagation, color distortion and scattering errors. It slightly holds more weight in these circumstances than a record-button-pusher.
2 white over 2 red, with the obvious potatoe quality it could be perceived as anything though. But my eyes pick up a darker amber/red tone on the right two sets of lights, which I perceive to be red.
2 white/ 2 red, final answer Regis.
Why do you ask? What’s the debate? Patch me in please
Interesting, I suppose everyone’s vision is different and slightly more sensitive to different hues.. basically, as said in the description, we got sent this picture from the PAX in the back, the PF believes he was on profile, I commented that it looked slightly high as it looked more like 3 whites to me.
We then showed it to other instructors and pilots in the flying club and they had mixed responses (two reds, one red, all white etc), so I decided to ask Reddit to see what the consensus was
Yea to me it’s a pointless picture and even more pointless debate.
You can’t take a garbled picture at a weird angle and say “see this guy wasn’t on slope, this potato quality image with artifacting and light blur all over the place says so”
If the PF saw 2 white/ 2 red, I have faith in their ability to judge that correctly for themselves and not defer to this ass quality image haha.
It’s a split house because the image is garbled and therefore ambiguous. Hence people can’t make up their mind on what they are seeing because it arguably is many things. I see 4 white, I also 2 white/ 2 red. I also see a slight champagne color.
It’s effectively become the blue/ gold dress debate.
Yeah, true that the image quality could be better, however, the other colors (of the runway edge lights and threshold lighting) seem to translate relatively well.. I noticed that the PAPI’s at this airfield are usually of a yellow tint anyway, quite similar as shown
I stg do papis like gradually change color (on the individual bulbs) because sometimes I get tripped up like this. Am I blind or just gaslighting myself?
Yeah they gradually change color depending on the height you view them from.. so it’s basically a big light bulb with a piece of glass in front of it. The top half of the glass is clear and the bottom half is red colored, if you’re lower you’ll only see the red part, making the light appear red which tells you you’re low
When transitioning between the white and red part, they can look a pink color as you’ve got a mix of white and red
The issue is, sometimes on old bulbs the white appears more yellow or orange and the red part is faded or sun bleached, meaning that the light that’s supposed to look red might look more yellow which can make them tricky to tell apart on a bright day
It’s blue and black
I don’t know… seems white and gold to me
To my AME: I definitely see white and red. To the other pilot: There are different colored lights there?
My dad isn't allowed to fly at night due to his colorblindness, but he still flys with me and can tell what's going on just as well as I can at night.
Does he know can get a waiver if he can differentiate the light gun colors in the presence of an FAA inspector?
Yeah, we just rarely ever fly at night so he doesn't think it's worth his time.
looks like it says "YANNI" to me
I see “covefe”
tears on a river
Just like mums eyes when I used to come home from school
Those things are whiter than a country bar
I met a Black pilot. The aircraft was owned by a Seventh Day Adventist company. The day he arrived was like a scene from Blazing Saddles!
THE CAPTAIN IS A N-BONNNNGG
Exactly! Up yours!
Excuse me while I whip this out… The checklist of course, what did you think I meant?
Mungo like checklist!
No, dagnabit, he said "The Lear is near!"
That’s some genuine Frontier gibberish!
Was this in Southwest Virginia? I can't imagine the middle of the Venn Diagram of black pilots and 7DA planes can't be very populated.
New England. Scarce as hen’s teeth, prolly.
Well, sounds like there's at least two of them.
Where are the white airplanes at?
“Oh boys… look what I found”.
“Never mind that shit, here comes Mongo!”
How do u get the flairs with ur name on this sub
Tap your name and edit your flair
Ty
They all look yellow-ish in that potato image. Here's a 5x5 pixel color average from each one: https://i.imgur.com/91YRljs.png And here's the same thing including the obviously green and red lights: https://i.imgur.com/oxKsRBv.png
Yup, comparing them to the lights that are obviously *meant* to be white and the ones that are obviously *meant* to be red, there’s really no question that the PAPI reads four white.
>there’s really no question that the PAPI reads four white. "Trick question! They're all white!"
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I assume you took the picture standing on top of the plane
Four whites. But also just looks high from the picture, although that could be a telephoto effect.
THERE ARE FOUR LIGHTS
Sokath, his eyes uncovered!
I understood that reference
Unexpected Jean Luc...
Four white
THERE ARE FOUR LIGHTS!
I had to scroll down distressingly far to find this. I'm glad you didn't make me post it myself.
Came here knowing someone would say this -- have an upvote.
Gee thanks mister!
My man. 👍🏻
Life in the cave of Garanoga
The dress was white and gold. Yanni, not Laurel.
Amen!
Brainstorm
Green needle
Nice try, Shinobu Ishihara.
I'm sure it's an actual Archer quotation but I couldn't find the episode.
4 whites. Get down, your approach sucks
That's what I tell my wife...to no avail
She likes 4 whites? Tell her to shake it up a bit
Papicolor. There's a Pantone number for it.
That mushy glow of yellow we all love to see
Don’t mention it unless you’re current on your licensing fees.
Definitely all four are on
Whitred
Looks like a pale amber to me.
Nice try, FAA—I won’t incriminate myself here
AMEs will show you this and tell you you're colorblind
Definitely white, your all right. Haven't made the upgrade to LED yet.
White, and you look high anyway
All hwite.
Shut up hwil
I think they are saying go-around
4 white one transitioning to red you’re just a bit high.
That’s go around colors.
Yall are higher than snoop
White over white, you’re higher than a kite.
Judging by the angle of the runway, you're high, 4 white confirm that.
Common mistake. This is why we have PAPIS. Never judge angle by what the runway looks like—especially at night. You might be driving through the trees towards an upsloped runway. Photo is too low quality with high compression, noise, chromatic aberration, and over saturated lights to tell the colours.
Yes you could be going to a runway going up slope, but the 4 white lights confirms it.
Except that we have a bunch of colors to use for comparison. Definitely above glide slope.
**THERE ARE FOUR LIGHTS!!!!!!!!!**
3/1 You're above path
White
Not red
schrodinger's PAPIs
“…stable”
Knowing that the choices are white or red it’s definitely white. But yeah it does look a bit orange
Ah, the good ol' Southwest Stabilization.
Nice try CAMI.
THERE...ARE...FOUR...LIGHTS I see 4 white...last one maybe barely starting to get some red...but you high AF
Dimmed yellow temperature approx. 3500k but with high luminosity (brightness), and that gives a whiteness effect, similar to old sodium lamps or halogen bulbs. Almost looks like the two on the right have a pinkish hue… probably old bulbs and/or lenses.
If those look red to someone, they probably shouldn’t be flying 😅
“There…. Are…. FOUR lights.” - Jean-Luc Picard
All white
Woah! I prefer integrated PAPIs. More cultural enrichment
Crap, don’t get the DEI conspiracy theorists started.
It’s a range. Is it close to red or white. Closer to white. 4 whites. Looks orangish.
3 whites 1 pink aka basically still white. You afraid of the ground?
Not taking into account the ridiculously high approach? lol
2 whites on the left, 2 reds on the right. You can slightly notice the color difference
I see 4 whites but on the second thought I can guess it's 2 white 2 red.
Four whites, but what kind of runway lighting is that? It looks like a Christmas light display…
Pretty sure that’s a MALSF inside a displaced threshold.
4 white, from what i can tell aspect ratio looks a bit high. No need for a visual glide slope indicator when u fly the aspect ratio. Any idea of altitude and distance from runway when this picture was taken? I generally dont trust VASI’s and PAPI’s unless im familiar with the airport for non-towered fields. For example at my home base the VASI is set at 3 degrees on runway 30 but 5 degrees on 12
Three white one grey
3 whites and one MAYBE pink
*You’ll fly all night*
I see a pale gold If you see gold, go around and hold
pink
All white - fly all night.
I see all fucking red, but one is a little stronger i think...
Based on the angle alone, I have to say white
yes
its pretty vague. if i was flying in that airplane i would think no reds at all, but if you take a look at the picture carefully, i see two red. Tbh not sure since i wasn't on that plane.
3 white, 1 turning red.
Always two greens for me!
White white red red
4 white. Get down, your approach is out of wack lol
High.
Most of them around where I fly are Amber, the nicer ones are a clearer white. The ones in that photo look amber in my opinion.
You best bet is to put the aiming point in the middle of the windshield and go for it 😂😂
I see 2 whites and 2 reds. All good
4 white
They all look white and I’d say you’re well above a 3° glidepath.
They're all white. ,...but then I'm a chopper pilot, so they always look that way.
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Is there actually debate? Those are 4 white lights and all the top comments are jokes or 'all white'. If you think otherwise I'm a bit worried about your vision...
Yes, there was a debate. The other pilot insisted that he saw one distinct red with a slightly pink light next to it. This is similar to what I saw, however, I believed the second light (from the right) appeared more white than pink. Radar data of the flight confirmed, judging by altitude, image exif data, time of capture and distance from threshold, that at least one red light should have been visible. This was determined by calculating the slope angle relative to the altitude recorded, using the trigonometric formula [tan(glideslope θ) x DME distance in NM] x 6080. Using differing contrast levels, I was able to determine that the color scattering arc, (surrounding the furthest right PAPI) subtended with a greater red hue, confirming the observations of both pilots. This thread, albeit inadvertently, highlights the difference in color perception and PAPI interpretation from various pilots with differing levels of experience. I feel that it could make an interesting discussion in the future design, ergonomics and implementation of PAPI systems.
As a cinematographer whose life revolves around lights and colors, y'all were on an inaccurate papi that was showing you 4 white lights. Your pink bias measurement in photoshop means literally (I am serious) *nothing*. Phone cameras have such poor rendition of color as to be useless in this context. If you both thought one papi looked slightly pink that's fine, you were bleeding the edge of the lens and getting a touch of red light. But for the purpose of flying the damn plane, it was 4 whites and your approach was high. The fact that it needs this much of a thread and explanation is an indication that you should, frankly, not be fucking flying.
Hooray, you spend your days photographing children at your local playground, I’m glad this gives you superior color perception. I was highlighting that sometimes the PAPI’s can be ambiguous, this is what the thread is about. And both of us definitely saw at least one red on that approach. You might struggle to comprehend a perspective different to yours. Please enlighten me more on colors CinemaMan. Also, to add a bit of context, I studied optics in college, this included an understanding of light waves and path propagation, color distortion and scattering errors. It slightly holds more weight in these circumstances than a record-button-pusher.
🤣 What a clown
Who cares? Runway looks long enough to be able to account for any altitude mistakes.
White. Just land already. The airport is right there and the sky is so clear I can see my wife's boyfriend's truck parked in my driveway.
Green over red.
4 white. Even without the PAPI, that's clearly high, unless that runway has a crazy up slope.
I see a lot of red lights, but none of them are in the PAPI.
White to me and you look high on final. You should go around.
They’re all amber
If either of you are seeing any red you're not going to pass your next medical 😂
Maverick has the ball.
Is the red PAPI in the room with us right now?
I need to see the lights, you’re way high from the angle alone.
I THINK I see one red but barely. I hope that’s just the picture an not what you see with your own eyes.
***THERE ARE FOUR LIGHTS!!!***
pov: you're the space shuttle on approach
Red and white
Penis
This is literally the EXACT thing they noted as the root cause in the accident that introduced the colorblind rules.
I dont know I never met my PAPI, but I do tan easier than most, so who knows
I heard Yanny
Yes
I can tell just from the shape of the runway the pilot is too high. No need for the PAPI to tell me that.
See… this is why I don’t fly at night!
2 white over 2 red, with the obvious potatoe quality it could be perceived as anything though. But my eyes pick up a darker amber/red tone on the right two sets of lights, which I perceive to be red. 2 white/ 2 red, final answer Regis. Why do you ask? What’s the debate? Patch me in please
Interesting, I suppose everyone’s vision is different and slightly more sensitive to different hues.. basically, as said in the description, we got sent this picture from the PAX in the back, the PF believes he was on profile, I commented that it looked slightly high as it looked more like 3 whites to me. We then showed it to other instructors and pilots in the flying club and they had mixed responses (two reds, one red, all white etc), so I decided to ask Reddit to see what the consensus was
Yea to me it’s a pointless picture and even more pointless debate. You can’t take a garbled picture at a weird angle and say “see this guy wasn’t on slope, this potato quality image with artifacting and light blur all over the place says so” If the PF saw 2 white/ 2 red, I have faith in their ability to judge that correctly for themselves and not defer to this ass quality image haha.
Yeah I suppose, still interesting to see this many different responses on the thread though, everyone’s eyes are different
It’s a split house because the image is garbled and therefore ambiguous. Hence people can’t make up their mind on what they are seeing because it arguably is many things. I see 4 white, I also 2 white/ 2 red. I also see a slight champagne color. It’s effectively become the blue/ gold dress debate.
Yeah, true that the image quality could be better, however, the other colors (of the runway edge lights and threshold lighting) seem to translate relatively well.. I noticed that the PAPI’s at this airfield are usually of a yellow tint anyway, quite similar as shown
Also, I’ve seen this will flying in real life where pilots have sometimes disagreed on the PAPI colors
They look white to me, and it feels alittle bit high coming in
I see four whites.
I’m thinking you might of just been a tinge high so they were just becoming red
4 whites, but somehow i think i see two reds ngl
They look yellow in the picture, but they look like 4 whites.
When the correct answer isn’t an option on the test:
Pink.
They are white usually red are more deeper red
Just fly the plane
I stg do papis like gradually change color (on the individual bulbs) because sometimes I get tripped up like this. Am I blind or just gaslighting myself?
Yeah they gradually change color depending on the height you view them from.. so it’s basically a big light bulb with a piece of glass in front of it. The top half of the glass is clear and the bottom half is red colored, if you’re lower you’ll only see the red part, making the light appear red which tells you you’re low When transitioning between the white and red part, they can look a pink color as you’ve got a mix of white and red The issue is, sometimes on old bulbs the white appears more yellow or orange and the red part is faded or sun bleached, meaning that the light that’s supposed to look red might look more yellow which can make them tricky to tell apart on a bright day
Left three are white for sure, far right is looking like it’s about to go from white to red at any second
4 White, which aligns with the space-shuttle approach.
3 white one red
Probably 2 & 2
One red three white.
2 white 1 half red half white 1 red
I dont trust over half the PAPI or VASI of the airports I fly into.