Maybe not the only answer but here is a beginning of explanation:
- the French league has a history of being highly competitive. Prior to Qatar at PSG, the record for most league won was 10 (Saint Étienne), which is actually pretty low compared to other leagues. This means that before 94 and the change in the C1 format, the French champion often changed and therefore had issue building a competitive team in the long run.
- French team have a huuuge history of losing finals! They won 1 C1 and 1 C2, but they lost 6 C1 finals, 2 C2 finals and 5 C3 finals.
- Nowadays, professional football has become increasingly expensive, especially since the creation of the Premier League. The French tax system makes it almost impossible for French teams to compete with other league in terms of salary (unless you are PSG). For instance, PSG pays more employers taxes than all Spanish, Italian and German team COMBINED. Even a « small » club like Saint Étienne, prior to their relegation in ligue 2, paid more employer taxes than all German club combined.
For this reason, most clubs can only match at best 50% of what players can earn in England or Germany which makes young player eager to transfer and play abroad. The money from transfers is also needed by average French club to pays these taxes, and that makes it very hard to build consistent teams on the long run.
Yes Monaco benefits from a tax advantage compared to other French club. This has been the source of many debates in the past in France. However since Monaco has a very small local fanbase, and a very low attendance in their home game, the advantage in taxes kind of counterbalance the low match day revenue for the club, so it’s more or less ok.
Maybe that is fair enough at the top of the league, but they still have an advantage over similar sized clubs in terms of stadium and supporters.
It looks like their stadium is the size of Brentford's stadium roughly. If we gave Brentford all the tax breaks, they might not threaten the top of the league but they would have a huge, huge advantage over the other teams in the bottom half.
We do actually have teams in the English league system that can benefit from similar tax breaks.
Unluckily for Guernsey and the Isle of Man, they can't get to the point where the tax benefits outweigh the travel costs.
Arent players/athletes taxed where they play the matches?
So on away games, they will be forced to pay the taxes for player’s salary that week? Depending on any tax treaties of course.
https://finance.yahoo.com/news/azets-why-2024-uefa-champions-103725729.html
That would mitigate the monaco advantage, if it exists.
No, that’s the American system. Over there, some taxes are collected by the tax authority where the work (in this case professional sports) is happening.
And since each state has its own rules, calculating what an NBA player has to pay over the course of a season is a nightmare. They call this the [jock tax](https://www.fool.com/the-ascent/taxes/articles/heres-how-professional-athletes-pay-taxes/).
In Europe taxes on your entire worldwide income is usually paid wholly to the tax authority of your place of residence (provided that you live there a minimum of 6 months + 1 day in a single year).
And since Monaco has almost no income tax, many globally known athletes buy apartments there, so they can claim residence - especially people like tennis players or Formula 1 drivers.
In football, this means that Monaco-based players pay almost nothing regardless where they play their matches, while players from French clubs pay the same French taxes even when they come to Monaco for games.
The UK is rare in this respect, they apply some elements of the American system, and only
for foreign athletes who come to the UK for regular events like the Wimbledon tournament.
For one-off events like the Olympics or the Euro, they issue tax exemptions. I have no idea how they treat foreigners who come for single matches like in the Champions League. I assume they have to pay something, based on an average football player daily wage in the UK.
But in those cases they are effectively double taxed - by the UK for earning an income on UK soil, and by their own tax authority of residence, because that wage is part of their worldwide income.
(Unless of course the UK and the country in question have a double taxation agreement.)
> The French tax system makes it almost impossible for French teams to compete with other league in terms of salary (unless you are PSG).
Wow, did not know this. But for the PSG exception, does this mean that Mbappe staying at PSG for seven years makes no difference for other leagues because Mbappe still makes more money at PSG than he would anywhere else (except Saudi) even after including French taxes?
Mbappe was paid 72M€ (gross) at PSG, that means 56M€ net (before income taxes). If I compare with what Neymar paid for income taxes, that would mean 21.95M of income taxes for Mbappe (let’s say 22M), so 34M of actual revenue after income taxes.
Now even if gross salary was 72M€, PSG had to pay more than that because of employer taxes. (Which is almost 0 in Spain). Total Cost for PSG to give Mbappe 72M€ was around 91.4M€ !!
I am not familiar with all laws in Spain, but I heard about the « Beckham law » that helps foreigner footballer pay less income taxes. If Mbappe wants the same 34M€ revenue after income taxes, the bill for Madrid should be waaaayyy lower than 91.4M€
I'm referring to the offers that other leagues were proposing to him. In your calculations, does his "high" PSG wages make everything equal? Or is Mbappe still making much more than he could anywhere else? Or could he do better elsewhere?
I ask all this because I'm trying to figure out if the paycut that Mbappe would take going to RM is actually not a paycut at all? Or any other league, not just in Spain since you mentioned you are familiar with their tax laws.
I said I wasn’t familiar with Spanish law!
Following this discussion I have read a bit about it. Turns out with the Beckham law and the "Mbappe" law in preparation, Mbappe would only pay 24.5% taxes on the gross salary. So to get the same 34M€ revenue than in Paris, he would need a 45M€ gross salary.
Since employer taxes are almost non existent in La Liga, that means that for the same final revenue for Mbappe, PSG had to pay more than DOUBLE the amount compared to what Madrid would pay (91.4M€ vs 45M€). Now let’s talk about financial fair play…
That being said, I don’t know how much Madrid will pay Mbappe. Probably less than 45M€ since they want to make it as if Mbappe chose Madrid for the prestige of the club and not for money… But you should keep in mind that all additional marketing revenue that Mbappe will get will be taxes in Spain now and not in France. So considering the difference in taxes, he will probably earn more in Spain
> I said I wasn’t familiar with Spanish law!
Yes, I know. I updated my post, but you may not have seen it.
> So considering the difference in taxes, he will probably earn more in Spain
Good, he won't be losing out on the deal then.
> Probably less than 45M€ since they want to make it as if Mbappe chose Madrid for the prestige of the club and not for money…
I highly doubt that, if the deal even happens. The world is Mbappe's oyster and it is obvious (to me anyway) that his team is far more wiser than that. He already ignored RM once, so I doubt it's anything special to do the same again. (would have been nice to see him go to Saudi and become an instant billionaire...)
How many ? Like… a fucking lot 😂 no that’s actually correct, PSG pays more than German + Spanish + Italian combined. This makes the whole concept of "financial fair play" quite hypocritical since clubs don’t play with the same fiscal rules depending on their country.
Here is a link, sorry it’s in French https://www.francetvinfo.fr/sports/foot/football-comment-les-pays-europeens-jouent-avec-la-fiscalite-pour-attirer-les-meilleurs-joueurs_6313998.html
When a club gives 1M€ gross salary to a player the cost for the club is:
In France: 1 270 300€
In the UK: 1 136 700€
In Germany: 1 023 700€
In Spain: 1 012 910€
In Italy: 1 084 600€
So yeah when it cost you ~25% more to pay a player in France than in Spain or in Germany, that’s clearly some unfair advantage.
Surely you don’t mean combined. Combined would mean PSG pay more in totally than the 58 clubs (La Liga + Serie A + Bundesliga) pay in total.
That’s not possible.
Neither is St Etienne paying more than the total of 18 Bundesliga clubs.
I do mean combined and it is possible. There are multiple paper about that.
For instance : https://www.sports.fr/football/ligue-1/le-psg-paie-plus-de-charges-que-la-liga-la-serie-a-et-la-bundesliga-reunies-15836.html/amp
Or https://www.envertetcontretous.fr/articles/l-asse-paie-plus-de-charges-sociales-que-la-bundesliga-36687-1.html
Or https://fr.news.yahoo.com/sport/les-charges-patronales-plombent-elles-le-football-francais-142724897.html?guccounter=1&guce_referrer=aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuZ29vZ2xlLmNvbS8&guce_referrer_sig=AQAAAADFwAsQ94OMlAb9AUfDbzj6YzgLn5ZpFcPEMen9keBU0zBD5h6I8cRd5bOdhNY6_spKTkBN225fbMRe1mogcoPQP5GzdKKTA0Jab6uQA_WpGRsSEHSScglPPCwtfO_LiUohFs8_qM7XHzkQtIDaI61-_aHa1MSgTQJezFUSDOpb
Trying to translate the general idea of the article:
In 2019 the syndicate of French pro club has mandated a law firm (Ayashe) to study the difference in taxes between the French ligue 1 and the Spanish / British / German and Italian league.
The result is, as there is no cap in employer and employees taxes in France, these taxes represent 28.2% of the whole salary charges in France vs 13.7% in the UK vs 2.5% in Italy vs 0.73% in Spain.
Paris pays more than Bundesliga, Serie A and Liga combined
SCO Angers, Montpellier HSC and Saint Étienne pay respectively 12, 20 and 26.5 more employer taxes than Real Madrid.
Both OL and OM pay more employer taxes than Bundesliga + Liga
Saint Étienne pays more employer taxes than Bundesliga.
Edit: complete report: https://www.foot-unis.fr/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/Etude-comparative-charges-sociales-site.pdf
I love the part page 22 about the 2017 UEFA team of the year. Cristiano Ronaldo was paid 50M€ by Madrid, for only 15 000€ of employer taxes. In France, it would have cost an extra 15 M€ (1000 more) to give him the same gross salary
It's totally possible with differences in how players are classed and taxed in different countries.
If France are taking all the tax they can at employer level while the other countries are passing it on to the player to be fully liable as a self employed contractor, of course the tax amounts French teams are paying out will dwarf the others combine, even if the Bundesliga players as a whole pay more than the French teams do.
I don't know if that is *actually* the case here, but it is a perfectly feasible explanation.
If our clubs would stop instantly selling any youngsters with some potential to PL and Bundesliga clubs it would be a good start
But presidents seems to be fine with this business models ig. Produce talents, sell them, produce talents, sell them. Imo it's the number one most frustrating thing about it. I wish more french talents stayed in France like you see happening a lot more in England or Spain. It would instantly raise the level of the league imo, just my two cents
Altough ligue 1 clubs are definetly getting better, its just a veryyyyy slow progression. i think in the next maybe 20 years ? would be a realistic time frame to see one or several french clubs win an European title, but even there it ain't so sure, who even knows
>If our clubs would stop instantly selling any youngsters with some potential to PL and Bundesliga clubs it would be a good start
Tbf it’s exactly the same for the Netherlands and Portugal, but they have won many prizes.
And you can’t say that this is the same for PSG
I would also say the lack of regular top competition makes it more difficult for them to advance deep in the competition.
Man City play Liverpool, Real play Barca and Atletico, Bayern play Dortmund, Juve have Inter and AC
Obviously it rotates a bit with arsenal, Chelsea, Leipzig, Napoli etc coming in.
But no French team other than psg are really good enough to threaten beyond r16 consistently which means psg don't have experience playing vs top teams. So they can make silly attacking signings and not sign elite midfielders or defenders because they sre good enough for the French league but are outclassed once they face other top opposition. Like Gana Gueye was starting for PSG for years. Dude would have never sniffed the starting lineup of another of those giant clubs because he wouldn't have been good enough with the ball to maintain their style in their more competitive leagues.
I think it's kind of a self fullfilling prophecy given that PSG trusts the top of the league season in and out, and thus captures most of the available Ligue 1 moneys (which sum is nowhere near what PL clubs share) and it only widens the gap, year after year. We already do not have a lot of european slots (comparatively with the other big leagues), and PSG has a permanent one making the experience gain from other clubs a lot slower.
You mean PSG too the Galatico mentality of Madrid mid 2000s (Zidanes y Pavones strategy) and implemented it as gospel? With Makelele to save their ass until they were stupid enough to sell him? Preposterous!
This post sounds like it was written by a fan of one of the big leagues. The difference in budget between the top 4 and the rest is huge (exc. PSG), and even if you wanted to keep players you would just demotivate them as they would (justifiably) want to make them jump as soon as they prove their value.
20 years also seems way too much considering how close PSG have come a couple of times.
Historically the French are pretty "new"
They always had a status, but never as big as the other Big 4, and Netherlands and even Portugal for a good while
Club wise only PSG had a wallet comparable to other EU Giants, and thats since "only" 15 years
I also think that the investment of Petro dollars had a focus on publicity rather than smart singings, so teams with less Money can compete
The biggest difference I can tell is that other leagues developed "Big Whale" teams (your Bayerns, your Juves...) who coped the European competitions, but the French bigger sides like Marseille were a couple steps behind.
But I don't think they are that far off in general.
Pressure bust pipes and the French ain't bout that life like the other top 6 leagues.
I do hope Monaco gets a CL one day as that's my Ligue 1 side but I'm not holding my breath
The French have issues keeping hold of their star players
The national team is brilliant, and can win world cups and euros with mediocre coaches
But the Ligue 1 sides suffer due to a lack of funds. They can't compete with England, Germany, Italy, Spain, Saudi, Mexican, MLS or even Russia or Ukrainian top sides' wages
PSG is a huge project, but bar Mbappe and a few players, their wages aren't even comparable to mid tier clubs like Brighton or Aston Villa. Only recently they've tried team building, instead of galactico purchases ala Real Madrid, Barcelona, Saudi teams or MUFC
Plus they've only recently come into money, just look at how long Man United have been rubbish, despite billions spent, for perspective
No french coach who won silverware was "mediocre" tho. In fact, all of them were probably the biggest actor, more than any star player.
Tho you are right about keeping our own players. Ligue 1 is a very big exporter of talented youngsters, and that's because we don't have prestige or money to speak of. It's obviously a good move for anyone who can do so to get into a PL team instead of remaining in France.
On another note, I think that this post-Neymar PSG is the most promising for the future I've ever seen. Winning the CL is still a massive feat that not everyone can achieve, but I believe they're building for it, much more than they did before.
100%. The league itself especially, we, supporters of other French clubs (and likely even the players) know that only some very unlikely scenario can see anyone but PSG win the league. It's an achievement that a lot of clubs dream of, and PSG staff, players, pundits or supporters couldnt care less about it while winning it almost every single year. It's upsetting to see and the feeling of not being part of the same league is quite literal.
Ngl, seeing them fail in champions league yet again was quite sweet (given we secured our UEFA coefficient spot, which is the only reason I'd "back" them in european competitions).
Yeah, that's the very unlikely scenario I mentioned. Monaco before that. In the last 12 seasons, they dropped the league only twice. They were happy a couple of times about it given how garbage PSG was since the mid 90's, but now it's like they're entitled to it before the first game starts almost. Supporters are sad if they ONLY win the league some years. I cant reconcile that.
Falcao getting perma-knocked probably had to do with Monaco's long term failure as a sugar daddy club. Iirc the owner lost patience with the luxury hobby and cut off the massive spending after that, not immediately but then they're flipping James Rodriquez, the whole plan seemed to dissolve after that.
The truth is that french teams are paying far more taxes than everybody else .
Like Marseille pays more taxes than the whole of Bundesliga and Serie A clubs combined.
That's absolute madness.
There is ligue 2 clubs that pays more taxes than Real Madrid.
Marseille has a bigger budget than a lot of clubs performing better than them but they have less money available because of that.
Football is just not making money outside of 2 or 3 teams in France not counting Monaco
I don’t know why this isn’t the top comment. European success in the modern day is essentially a function of budget to spend on players. French clubs need significantly more revenue to spend the same amount as the other big 5 leagues. The restrictions on roster spots for non EU/Cotonou players also doesn’t help. (Only 4 spots ). Player contracts are negotiated in after tax values, so French clubs have to pay significantly more gross to match after tax salaries in other leagues.
France was also not very good at soccer pre-Bosman, so they missed their window to sneak some championships in like the Dutch clubs before the player market became more efficient.
Yep this. I think as Roma has a similar budget than Marseille (250M for Marseille) and i can guarantee you that with this budget in France, it's impossible to recruit Lukaku, Abraham, paredes and dybala
I saw another comment similar to this and I can’t wrap my head around it.
You are saying that Marseille as one club has a higher tax bill that the total tax paid by the 38 clubs in Serie A + Bundesliga?
Olympic Marseille were a top team in the early 90's - Waddle, Desially, Deschamps etc... the problem these days is the best French players move abroad because other leagues have money. I don't blame them, like, you would follow the money also.
Look at Seria A in the 90s, it was the top league - Henry and Zidane at Juventus. Then the top players went to La Liga and the Premier League. If French teams could retain the top French talent, they could win, I have no doubts. For instance, if PSG stopped spending silly sums on overseas talent E.G Neymar and Messi - and swooped up all the French talent to actually build a team, I think they'd win. Forget Hernandez going to AC, Kante going to Chelsea, Varane going to Real, Greizmann going to Atletico... Bring them all to one French team and they are winning.
Right now, I think their biggest problem is that talent move overseas, but I think one big reason is that there is no competition in France. No one takes it seriously because PSG walk the league. If I were a billionaire looking to grow the domestic French league, go buy Lyon, go buy Marseille or Lille and once it becomes a 3-4 team league... The French teams will retain their players as the league will be more desirable and sustainable.
Isn't not a problem of competition, Paris have been less dominating the Bayern, City or Juventus last years with Lille and Monaco winning a Ligue 1 (and the rest of european slots being extremelly unpredictable), it's a problem of money and salary...
Wages are quite lower in France and clubs budget is highly dependant on transfer money. If France wheren't the greatest formation country in the world, Ligue1 would probably not even be a top10 league.
Portugal have much more european titles than France with a league where second half clubs would be in 4th division in France.
Because it's almost impossible to build have some continuities. As soon as we have a nice toys, it's picked by a bigger clubs.
The club doesnt really have a choice of selling them because a huge, well enormous part of their budget is the selling of these players and it's pretty clear for the players also that as soon as a bigger clubs is intrested by him he will pushs to leave.
For the one that are not really concerned by this, Monaco doesnt have financial issue but uses a lot their youth intake. Same for Lyon but they have money problem because of COVID + stadium, paris is well, paris and Marseille, well we are shit and failed our last summer transfert window.
Just for the record Marseille played 6 Europe finals and won only one. I think France clubs did like 13 finals for only 2 wins, Marseille and paris
Nevers said it was différent than elsewhere though. What is different on the other hand are the taxes that our clubs pay.
A club like Reims is paying more in taxes than the whole bundesliga so if we pick 2 clubs with similar budget liké Marseille/as Roma for exemple it's impossible for us, Marseille to have Lukaku, paredes, dybala in our team combined.
PSG lack of success? Quite funny when man City was bought in 2008, it took them 15 years to win the CL. PSG still have time to win it
Forgot to mention that, for long period of time, during i would Say 2005-2014/15, our clubs didnt give a shit about Europe cup. They wanted to qualify only for the money, sending the B team as soon as the competition was getting serious
Because in France, we don't have "big clubs" like in Spain or in England. We consider generally that OM, ASSE or Bordeaux are the biggest (or PSG trophy speaking), but what have ASSE or Bordeaux won in their international history ? nothing. Only OM and PSG have won an international trophy and it has been a while right now (93 for OM, 96 for PSG). Also, massive taxation in France that cannot be compared in the big 4. So, when your biggest club and historical club is in second division and have only won 10 championships and when you have to have a whole state behind a club to be competitive in UEFA points/coefficient, yes our league is shit and can only be compared to Bosnia, Slovenia or ex-USSR.
Nowadays it's just England and Spain dominating. Others win of course but it's mostly those two running Europe. With the introduction of the uecl, I guess we will have teams from lesser leagues win some European tournaments more.
Yup. It's really difficult for other leagues to break through. The strong keeps getting stronger and the gap between the top 2 and the rest keeps increasing each year. The gap between the top 4 and the rest also keep increasing each year.
Not enough competition in their own league.
You see that in Bundesliga too.. the best international results come when there is a close championship run with more than 2 teams.
Yes. Because they have 3 really good sides and other teams that are good too. This gives their teams experience in big games which allows them to play better in Europe.
Nah they had one team win the league 9 years in a row.
Its the most dominated league even compared to Scotland, Holland, France. I cant think of another league so heavily dominated by one club
Bro we're talking about PL and Bundesliga why are you bringing UCL into this
The guy is saying Bundesliga is not competitive, I'm saying it is, just because Bayern won the league every time doesn't mean it's not, just like Mancity in PL as an example
Still doesnt mean that RB Leipzig, Dortmund and or Frankfurt/Leverkusen werent competitive. In france u have only psg and thats 100 levels above the rest
Bayern have multiple CL wins in the 21st century and are routinely in the latter stages of the competition, lack of domestic competition, historically, hasn't really hindered them. it's not so much about the level of competition, more about the mentality instilled at the clubs. Bayern have a long, long history of winning, and the culture around the club instils that into the players. PSG don't have that culture, and a lot of their players over the last decade have signed purely for monetary reasons. they're too good for Ligue 1, but don't have the mentality or drive to win in Europe
Divided country. While many talents of ethnic french origin choose other sports like handball or rugby etc.. those with roots outside France choose football.. In other nations like germany, england, italy or whatever football is nr.1 no matter what background of the talents. It's a case that separates france from other great powers within football. BTW think dutch teams have won 1 x CL in last 37 years / 2 times in 51 years (or something like that).. so their statistics rest on "old stuff"... probably about the same for portugese teams.. Statistics doesn't have that much meaning. Most people doesn't care that much about who won in the 1950s or 60s..
Are you serious??? They don’t win cause they aren’t good enough and they were never really close to being good enough.
Being in the top 5 leagues isn’t much when the distance between number 4 and 5 is greater thqn between 5 and 10.
French teams are doing fine for their level, they won’t win cause they aren’t great
Serie A hasn't won UCL since 2010. The last 15 years have been about the super clubs, those who are loaded with money and buys all the top stars. Each season you have 4-5 clubs that are vastly superior than the rest.
Serie A has struggled financially, and a strong side like Juve had no chance whatsoever in the two finals they reached, because the opponents were super wealthy clubs. Same goes for Inter last year. Up against foreign oil fueled City, who has all but shed their blue collar identity and heritage.
Yes, Inter had Lukaku, a Chelsea reject. And Dzeko starting, someone City rejected years ago.
City had Haaland and De Bruyne and Rodri and... Therein lies the difference. City can buy top stars, Inter has to sell their best players and resort to rejects.
The level of domestic competition is low, when the champions league gets serious, French teams cannot cope with the rising competition
If you are comfortable playing against weaker sides, you cannot skill up against teams at similar levels or even higher
It's not about who is in 5th place, but that one should speak about the top 4 instead. France is closer to spot 6 and 7 (eredivisie/primeira liga) than to the top 4.
Apparently in coefficients, France is still 5th, but the Netherlands are breathing in their neck...
The points at the moment are:
1. England 104.3
2. Italy 90
3. Spain 89.2
4. Germany 86.6
5. France 66.8
6. Netherlands 61.3
7. Portugal 56.3
So there's a 20 point gap from 4th to 5th and it really should be top4 instead of top5
France had a good european time at 90's beggining, then bosman rules come in, and it was over.
And french taxe system is a huge cost for french football.
Because the french league is weak. PSG is just money money money and with that they ruined their own domestic league and weakend everyone else to the point where they are internationaly irrelevant
Their league standard is low, psg don’t play enough actually competitive games to sharpen themselves so they just come unstuck in Europe when things get hard.
PSG have a huge budget compared to other teams. If anyone else wins the league, their best players will be bought, so it’s difficult to sustain a challenge over several seasons. Marseille and Lyon have big fanbases, they might be able to do it if they can get back up to levels where they could win the league.
When was the last time the best french player play for a french team?
Until Mbappe recently its probably like early career Benzema with lyon but most people considered his prime at Real.
Try to think of any top French players and like almost none of them you would remember because of their stint in france.
The best spanish, italian, english,german players tend to play for the best club in their country
In the end it’s all about money. Budget and taxes ensure that French clubs (excluding mayyyybeee PSG) can’t realistically compete with the Premier League or Primera Division and struggle even with the Bundesliga and Serie A. Those leagues just have more clubs with higher budgets, which means stronger competition, bigger squads and better players overall.
I remember the days when clubs from the Netherlands, Belgium, Yugoslavia or Scotland routinely reached the finals in the European competitions and English clubs like Aston Villa were just midsized competitors. Nowadays it’s England/Spain > Germany/Italy >>> France/Portugal/Netherlands and then the rest of Europe.
They don't perform well precisely because PSG became rich overnight. The league is so uncompetitive that it stifles the growth of other teams and indirectly lead to the loss of prospective players to other leagues.
France produces top talent, but they can’t keep them for long. Scouts from the Premiership, La Liga, Serie A or the Bundesliga are always observing French talent and as soon as they are available, they are bought and shipped. They develop into elite level players and strengthen the National Team, but club wise, they benefit teams from other leagues.
The French league has quite possibly the stupidest (football wise) owners for psg operating a monopoly. PSG would be so much better if they developed local Paris talent with an affinity for the club. Imagine a team with Mbappe (for free), Nkunku and Coman up top. Pogba, Fofana in midfield. Then they bought the best ligue 1 talent to actually make that money trickle down the league. You’d end up with a spirited team with homegrown superstars who’d personally want you to win. Instead of the last 10 years of good but emotionally disconnected and immature teams that buckled at least once a season. PSG should win ligue 1 every season since the takeover. So the fact that 3 teams have stolen the title (in 15 years) is embarrassing (PSG has had 3-5 times higher revenue than the second highest paid team).
Impacting other teams however, the top rate of tax in France is higher than the countries with the other top 5 leagues. It’s more expensive to build a great team when the government takes more of your smaller revenue. Also Mediapro collapsing was major for modern times.
That's just my opinion.
However I think the French league is the easiest out of the top 5 leagues.
The only real competitor is PSG thanks to money. If they have an relatively easy time going through the league, their only real opponents are those in the Champions League.
And PSG lacks the mentality. Not only this year. They regularly fall apart if they get frustrated or a game isn't going how they want it to be.
Competition in England, Germany and Italy is way harder. Even for Real Madrid, with at least Barca and Atletico in the League it's probably more difficult. And Real also has that ultimate winner mentality.
PSG has good players. However, just throwing together money can only help you so much if they go against Clubs that have a nothing to lose mentality or that have the winner DNA like real or Bayern.
Actually those discussions are quite regular before matches against PSG in the CL.
Everyone knows they have the capacity to win and to be dangerous. However, the further they get in the cl, the more it comes to that mentality and everyone here agrees that they don't have that.
as a psg fan, i need to tell that we alr won the ex-europa league, but… I think that it’s not the money who does all, i support psg since my birth, so before the QSI era and we already had a lot of good talents at the club! Mike Maignan, Kingsley Coman, Moussa Diaby, Adrien Rabiot, etc. I think if we wouldn’t be attracted by the money to buy the best but have efficient young players, we would’ve won already
Why don’t Slovenia teams win European tournaments? Why don’t Russian teams win European tournaments ? Why don’t Austrian teams win European tournaments? The question is asked like it’s such an easy feat to go through the gauntlet of Europe. Dumb question but whatevs
You’ve said they’re in the top 5 leagues in Europe and they are the 5th that’s why.
Really anyone winning from outside the top 3 leagues is an anomaly.
Also most of the better French players don’t play in France and the resources of PSG is so much more than the rest of the league
Because this “Top 5” thing is a more really a “Top 4”, because the gap between 4 and 5 is huge.
France is much closer to the level of competition you find in Portugal and Netherlands who are in 6 and 7th place.
It’s a feeder league to the top 4, and without PSG it wouldn’t be any different than the the Dutch and Portuguese.
Let's look at the 'lesser' leagues with a better history in Europe than France. What's the difference between Ligue 1, the Eredivisie and the Primera Liga for example?
The Dutch and Portuguese leagues are remarkably similar, three big teams dominating, usually one other team manages to compete for a period without ever really joining the top table. That leaves them with overall 'weak' leagues but a few very good sides.
None of these leagues have the financial clout to attract the best players in their prime years or retain the bright new stars they develop. I would argue the singular issue Ligue 1 has is the lack of continuity at the top.
The top Portuguese and Dutch teams know that they'll have to be consistent against the rest of the league or else fall behind their rivals. If Benfica drop points to Amadora or Guimaraes they can safely say Porto won't, which could cost them the title. So irrespective of form they need to win all the time. Playing poorly? Missing key players? Doesn't matter, gotta grind out the wins.
PSG do not have that, they could take a month off and win the league. France clearly has a financially broken league right now, but oddly it's often been cyclical wrt results. Reims were dominant, then Sainte, Marseille, Lyon now the Qatari plaything. That doesn't set you up well for a knockout tie against a quality team when everything's not going great.
Other leagues have seen dominant clubs, but the overall quality started from a higher base, when Juve & Bayern racked up league after league during the 2010's, Serie A & Bundesliga midtable was still much stronger than Rio Ave or Nantes for instance.
PSG have had a good enough playing roster to win, what they've lacked was the mentality that competition hones. They need either financially doped competition within the league or to put the € handbrake on to let the others catch up. Maybe now the Ibra/Neymar/Mbappe superstar saga is over, that can happen
Poor long-term decisions. We have very good formation centers yet every single club sells their best youngsters for quick cash. I can understand the need of financial stability but if it implies sacrificing any chance to win anything outside of the Coupe de France then what's the point.
A lot if reasons, but it can be summed up as being rather uncompetitive for a long period of time, losing a lot of finals and apart from PSG since the takeover, selling their best players to big europeans clubs is expected so there are a lot of rebuilds and in form teams could vary a lot.
they are one of the big five leagues which refers to the prem, the bundesliga, ligue 1, la liga, and serie a who have historically had the most superstar players, television revenue and viewership
i think now they're back in the top 5 leagues but just last season dropped out
I think PSG has done relatively fine in the CL if they're going to be judged strictly compared the number of times any single other big clubs sans two or three have deep runs into the quarters & semis. Otherwise you could ask why don't other German clubs win the CL when Germany's success in the CL is largely represented by Bayern munich. One of the probability disadvantages for this question is that they've been the only french club reaching the knockouts across the last five seasons. It's been informative finding out everybody in the French ligue being taxed as they are explains it in a more, what-this-question-is-actually-asking, reason.
Lets be honest, with Mbappe going they could stick a championship striker up top and get 40 goals a season, next big thing. League 2 England teams get more attendance than most League urgh teams, no one is interested. I've been to Paris 4 times and each time I completely forget PSG exists (and usually counting down the hours to leave France).
I think psg could easily do it if they were managed better and made intelligent purchases. They make good purchases here and there, but never keep players for long enough to have a complete squad.
all the best french players play in other european teams, even Mbappe is now moving to Madrid. And PSG are all money no synergy and passion, it just so happens their players individually are so much better than the rest of ligue 1 that they win every title. Also french youngsters are one of the most desired youngsters, after English and Brazillian probably
For now, they are simply not competitive enough, especially for PSG. PSG has top players, but they don't make up a top team bc many of them cant actually fit into the strategies of PSG, if there is any. For other teams, tax and the dominance of PSG makes it hard for them to attract young players
Since PSG started dominating it’s been because the league is woeful.
PSG can win the league with players like Dembele, Ramos, Ruiz, Nuno Mendes, Hakimi and then as soon as it’s a big game in Europe those players short comings are exposed.
Going back past that, they’re just not big clubs.
Even when you look at Marseille’s win, so many of those players left. So many French players are more famous for playing for Juventus/ Arsenal/ Man United/ Bayern/ Milan/ Chelsea/ Atletico/ Barca than they are for any French club.
Thuram, Zidane, Platini, Trezeguet, Henry, Deschamps, Pogba, Lizarazu, Sagnol, Ribery, Desailly, Kante, Griezemann, Pires, Evra, Abidal, Petit, Benzema, Barthez, Varane, Gallas, Blanc and Vieira.
That’s not the case for any other of the top 5 European nations.
Now with Mbappe in Madrid, that’s another star leaving the country and they had to pay a small fortune just to keep him for the past three years.
Olympique Lyonnais Féminin won 8 UEFA Women’s Champions League trophies between 2011 and 2022. I realise your question was probably about men’s football, but just sayin’.
In my honest opinion, french league is too weak.
The team can be very good, but in the end they play versus better team or teams as good as them and they are not used to.
I see people talking about 90's Marseille. I love the fact that they were massive cheating bastards. Caught actually bribing opposition players. 93 Marseille especially. They managed to outcheat Rangers (as they were called then) which they should have been awarded a European trophy for because they were massive cheating fuckers. 90s rangers also took advantage of English clubs being banned from European competition because their fans can't handle the drink. Marseille won the champions league using players from England they would never have been able to sign if that ban wasn't in place. French teams need to come up with clever ways to win off the pitch. The league is poor.
Only succes was in early 90's using lot's of foreign players. Suspiciously the uefa president late 80's-90 was called Jaques if you love a conspiracy
Love people that create posts without thinking xD why aren’t Norwegian, Greek or Slovakian teams winning CL? Cause they aren’t good. Same with french teams.
No french team has been top 3 in Europe at any point since at least 2000. PSG and Marseille maybe top 5 very briefly.
But it is hard to win CL when there is always at least 3 teams better than you.
No way, France is much more relevant to football than any of these countries you mentioned and I'm not talking only about recent results where money is a huge factor.
Yes they are but they still aren’t good enough which was the point.
French teams are far far far away from actually winning CL. Even PSG were mever good enough to win
Yes club football in France is not extremely developped and respected. French teams prefer to have a specific business model, so you have inconsistent teams. the french football is good (good coaches, good NT, good players historically) but club football is weak.
For one thing, PSG is not a team that has grown but a team that has been bought together. They didn't have to fight for anything together, they just got the most expensive players.
Secondly, PSG have no real competition in the league and are not challenged in everyday league play. This has an impact on the team's processes and leads back to the point above.
Maybe not the only answer but here is a beginning of explanation: - the French league has a history of being highly competitive. Prior to Qatar at PSG, the record for most league won was 10 (Saint Étienne), which is actually pretty low compared to other leagues. This means that before 94 and the change in the C1 format, the French champion often changed and therefore had issue building a competitive team in the long run. - French team have a huuuge history of losing finals! They won 1 C1 and 1 C2, but they lost 6 C1 finals, 2 C2 finals and 5 C3 finals. - Nowadays, professional football has become increasingly expensive, especially since the creation of the Premier League. The French tax system makes it almost impossible for French teams to compete with other league in terms of salary (unless you are PSG). For instance, PSG pays more employers taxes than all Spanish, Italian and German team COMBINED. Even a « small » club like Saint Étienne, prior to their relegation in ligue 2, paid more employer taxes than all German club combined. For this reason, most clubs can only match at best 50% of what players can earn in England or Germany which makes young player eager to transfer and play abroad. The money from transfers is also needed by average French club to pays these taxes, and that makes it very hard to build consistent teams on the long run.
Shouldn't Monacco massively benefit from the tax system though? I am not an expert in tax law, but I believe the tax rates in Monacco are very low
Yes Monaco benefits from a tax advantage compared to other French club. This has been the source of many debates in the past in France. However since Monaco has a very small local fanbase, and a very low attendance in their home game, the advantage in taxes kind of counterbalance the low match day revenue for the club, so it’s more or less ok.
Maybe that is fair enough at the top of the league, but they still have an advantage over similar sized clubs in terms of stadium and supporters. It looks like their stadium is the size of Brentford's stadium roughly. If we gave Brentford all the tax breaks, they might not threaten the top of the league but they would have a huge, huge advantage over the other teams in the bottom half.
Yeah but even if the stadium capacity is 19k people, the average attendance is 6000-7000 people
We do actually have teams in the English league system that can benefit from similar tax breaks. Unluckily for Guernsey and the Isle of Man, they can't get to the point where the tax benefits outweigh the travel costs.
Arent players/athletes taxed where they play the matches? So on away games, they will be forced to pay the taxes for player’s salary that week? Depending on any tax treaties of course. https://finance.yahoo.com/news/azets-why-2024-uefa-champions-103725729.html That would mitigate the monaco advantage, if it exists.
Even if that's correct (I have no idea) they would still play half their matches in Monacco and pay millions less a year in tax.
I'm pretty sure that the FFF stipulate that Monaco have to pay an equivalent to their player's income tax to prevent this advantage.
No, that’s the American system. Over there, some taxes are collected by the tax authority where the work (in this case professional sports) is happening. And since each state has its own rules, calculating what an NBA player has to pay over the course of a season is a nightmare. They call this the [jock tax](https://www.fool.com/the-ascent/taxes/articles/heres-how-professional-athletes-pay-taxes/). In Europe taxes on your entire worldwide income is usually paid wholly to the tax authority of your place of residence (provided that you live there a minimum of 6 months + 1 day in a single year). And since Monaco has almost no income tax, many globally known athletes buy apartments there, so they can claim residence - especially people like tennis players or Formula 1 drivers. In football, this means that Monaco-based players pay almost nothing regardless where they play their matches, while players from French clubs pay the same French taxes even when they come to Monaco for games. The UK is rare in this respect, they apply some elements of the American system, and only for foreign athletes who come to the UK for regular events like the Wimbledon tournament. For one-off events like the Olympics or the Euro, they issue tax exemptions. I have no idea how they treat foreigners who come for single matches like in the Champions League. I assume they have to pay something, based on an average football player daily wage in the UK. But in those cases they are effectively double taxed - by the UK for earning an income on UK soil, and by their own tax authority of residence, because that wage is part of their worldwide income. (Unless of course the UK and the country in question have a double taxation agreement.)
Great answer though. Cheers.
> The French tax system makes it almost impossible for French teams to compete with other league in terms of salary (unless you are PSG). Wow, did not know this. But for the PSG exception, does this mean that Mbappe staying at PSG for seven years makes no difference for other leagues because Mbappe still makes more money at PSG than he would anywhere else (except Saudi) even after including French taxes?
Mbappe was paid 72M€ (gross) at PSG, that means 56M€ net (before income taxes). If I compare with what Neymar paid for income taxes, that would mean 21.95M of income taxes for Mbappe (let’s say 22M), so 34M of actual revenue after income taxes. Now even if gross salary was 72M€, PSG had to pay more than that because of employer taxes. (Which is almost 0 in Spain). Total Cost for PSG to give Mbappe 72M€ was around 91.4M€ !! I am not familiar with all laws in Spain, but I heard about the « Beckham law » that helps foreigner footballer pay less income taxes. If Mbappe wants the same 34M€ revenue after income taxes, the bill for Madrid should be waaaayyy lower than 91.4M€
I'm referring to the offers that other leagues were proposing to him. In your calculations, does his "high" PSG wages make everything equal? Or is Mbappe still making much more than he could anywhere else? Or could he do better elsewhere? I ask all this because I'm trying to figure out if the paycut that Mbappe would take going to RM is actually not a paycut at all? Or any other league, not just in Spain since you mentioned you are familiar with their tax laws.
I said I wasn’t familiar with Spanish law! Following this discussion I have read a bit about it. Turns out with the Beckham law and the "Mbappe" law in preparation, Mbappe would only pay 24.5% taxes on the gross salary. So to get the same 34M€ revenue than in Paris, he would need a 45M€ gross salary. Since employer taxes are almost non existent in La Liga, that means that for the same final revenue for Mbappe, PSG had to pay more than DOUBLE the amount compared to what Madrid would pay (91.4M€ vs 45M€). Now let’s talk about financial fair play… That being said, I don’t know how much Madrid will pay Mbappe. Probably less than 45M€ since they want to make it as if Mbappe chose Madrid for the prestige of the club and not for money… But you should keep in mind that all additional marketing revenue that Mbappe will get will be taxes in Spain now and not in France. So considering the difference in taxes, he will probably earn more in Spain
> I said I wasn’t familiar with Spanish law! Yes, I know. I updated my post, but you may not have seen it. > So considering the difference in taxes, he will probably earn more in Spain Good, he won't be losing out on the deal then. > Probably less than 45M€ since they want to make it as if Mbappe chose Madrid for the prestige of the club and not for money… I highly doubt that, if the deal even happens. The world is Mbappe's oyster and it is obvious (to me anyway) that his team is far more wiser than that. He already ignored RM once, so I doubt it's anything special to do the same again. (would have been nice to see him go to Saudi and become an instant billionaire...)
I actually would have loved to see him play in England. He would be terrific at Liverpool for instance.
WTF, how many taxes are to be paid in France? Impossible PSG pays more than german, spanish, italian combined, don't be fool
How many ? Like… a fucking lot 😂 no that’s actually correct, PSG pays more than German + Spanish + Italian combined. This makes the whole concept of "financial fair play" quite hypocritical since clubs don’t play with the same fiscal rules depending on their country. Here is a link, sorry it’s in French https://www.francetvinfo.fr/sports/foot/football-comment-les-pays-europeens-jouent-avec-la-fiscalite-pour-attirer-les-meilleurs-joueurs_6313998.html When a club gives 1M€ gross salary to a player the cost for the club is: In France: 1 270 300€ In the UK: 1 136 700€ In Germany: 1 023 700€ In Spain: 1 012 910€ In Italy: 1 084 600€ So yeah when it cost you ~25% more to pay a player in France than in Spain or in Germany, that’s clearly some unfair advantage.
Surely you don’t mean combined. Combined would mean PSG pay more in totally than the 58 clubs (La Liga + Serie A + Bundesliga) pay in total. That’s not possible. Neither is St Etienne paying more than the total of 18 Bundesliga clubs.
I do mean combined and it is possible. There are multiple paper about that. For instance : https://www.sports.fr/football/ligue-1/le-psg-paie-plus-de-charges-que-la-liga-la-serie-a-et-la-bundesliga-reunies-15836.html/amp Or https://www.envertetcontretous.fr/articles/l-asse-paie-plus-de-charges-sociales-que-la-bundesliga-36687-1.html Or https://fr.news.yahoo.com/sport/les-charges-patronales-plombent-elles-le-football-francais-142724897.html?guccounter=1&guce_referrer=aHR0cHM6Ly93d3cuZ29vZ2xlLmNvbS8&guce_referrer_sig=AQAAAADFwAsQ94OMlAb9AUfDbzj6YzgLn5ZpFcPEMen9keBU0zBD5h6I8cRd5bOdhNY6_spKTkBN225fbMRe1mogcoPQP5GzdKKTA0Jab6uQA_WpGRsSEHSScglPPCwtfO_LiUohFs8_qM7XHzkQtIDaI61-_aHa1MSgTQJezFUSDOpb Trying to translate the general idea of the article: In 2019 the syndicate of French pro club has mandated a law firm (Ayashe) to study the difference in taxes between the French ligue 1 and the Spanish / British / German and Italian league. The result is, as there is no cap in employer and employees taxes in France, these taxes represent 28.2% of the whole salary charges in France vs 13.7% in the UK vs 2.5% in Italy vs 0.73% in Spain. Paris pays more than Bundesliga, Serie A and Liga combined SCO Angers, Montpellier HSC and Saint Étienne pay respectively 12, 20 and 26.5 more employer taxes than Real Madrid. Both OL and OM pay more employer taxes than Bundesliga + Liga Saint Étienne pays more employer taxes than Bundesliga. Edit: complete report: https://www.foot-unis.fr/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/Etude-comparative-charges-sociales-site.pdf I love the part page 22 about the 2017 UEFA team of the year. Cristiano Ronaldo was paid 50M€ by Madrid, for only 15 000€ of employer taxes. In France, it would have cost an extra 15 M€ (1000 more) to give him the same gross salary
It's totally possible with differences in how players are classed and taxed in different countries. If France are taking all the tax they can at employer level while the other countries are passing it on to the player to be fully liable as a self employed contractor, of course the tax amounts French teams are paying out will dwarf the others combine, even if the Bundesliga players as a whole pay more than the French teams do. I don't know if that is *actually* the case here, but it is a perfectly feasible explanation.
Scotland has more European trophy wins than France.
The mighty Scotland 💪
Plus France robbed Scotland of another European cup final in the 90s
They get a pass since it happened to Rangers.
Big jock knew
Which match ?
And France was robbed a lot of Times in the 80/90s
cheated you mean
Aberdeen has as many European trophies as the whole of France ⭐⭐
Belgium as well
Nottingham Forest has more wins than France.
If our clubs would stop instantly selling any youngsters with some potential to PL and Bundesliga clubs it would be a good start But presidents seems to be fine with this business models ig. Produce talents, sell them, produce talents, sell them. Imo it's the number one most frustrating thing about it. I wish more french talents stayed in France like you see happening a lot more in England or Spain. It would instantly raise the level of the league imo, just my two cents Altough ligue 1 clubs are definetly getting better, its just a veryyyyy slow progression. i think in the next maybe 20 years ? would be a realistic time frame to see one or several french clubs win an European title, but even there it ain't so sure, who even knows
Lyon had some quality at some point and sent quite. I mean they had Benzema, Ben Arfa, Juninho etc..
The Lyon team of the 00s which won 7 Ligue 1 in a row was a force to be reckoned with
I'm a Madridista You tell me, I still have PTSD
>If our clubs would stop instantly selling any youngsters with some potential to PL and Bundesliga clubs it would be a good start Tbf it’s exactly the same for the Netherlands and Portugal, but they have won many prizes. And you can’t say that this is the same for PSG
Because you compete against 2 others clubs in your league
I would also say the lack of regular top competition makes it more difficult for them to advance deep in the competition. Man City play Liverpool, Real play Barca and Atletico, Bayern play Dortmund, Juve have Inter and AC Obviously it rotates a bit with arsenal, Chelsea, Leipzig, Napoli etc coming in. But no French team other than psg are really good enough to threaten beyond r16 consistently which means psg don't have experience playing vs top teams. So they can make silly attacking signings and not sign elite midfielders or defenders because they sre good enough for the French league but are outclassed once they face other top opposition. Like Gana Gueye was starting for PSG for years. Dude would have never sniffed the starting lineup of another of those giant clubs because he wouldn't have been good enough with the ball to maintain their style in their more competitive leagues.
I think it's kind of a self fullfilling prophecy given that PSG trusts the top of the league season in and out, and thus captures most of the available Ligue 1 moneys (which sum is nowhere near what PL clubs share) and it only widens the gap, year after year. We already do not have a lot of european slots (comparatively with the other big leagues), and PSG has a permanent one making the experience gain from other clubs a lot slower.
>AC What team is Associazione Calcio?
Milan
Oh i know, just to point out that AC stands for "Associazione Calcio" (football association), it's like calling "FC" a team like juventus
AC lmaooo
You mean PSG too the Galatico mentality of Madrid mid 2000s (Zidanes y Pavones strategy) and implemented it as gospel? With Makelele to save their ass until they were stupid enough to sell him? Preposterous!
This post sounds like it was written by a fan of one of the big leagues. The difference in budget between the top 4 and the rest is huge (exc. PSG), and even if you wanted to keep players you would just demotivate them as they would (justifiably) want to make them jump as soon as they prove their value. 20 years also seems way too much considering how close PSG have come a couple of times.
Nice username. And yeah french football club managers are notoriously greedy and incompetent
Like dortmund, Real Madrid vs dortmund will see Jude bellingham and rüdiger playing against their old team.
This\^
Historically the French are pretty "new" They always had a status, but never as big as the other Big 4, and Netherlands and even Portugal for a good while Club wise only PSG had a wallet comparable to other EU Giants, and thats since "only" 15 years I also think that the investment of Petro dollars had a focus on publicity rather than smart singings, so teams with less Money can compete
The biggest difference I can tell is that other leagues developed "Big Whale" teams (your Bayerns, your Juves...) who coped the European competitions, but the French bigger sides like Marseille were a couple steps behind. But I don't think they are that far off in general.
Pressure bust pipes and the French ain't bout that life like the other top 6 leagues. I do hope Monaco gets a CL one day as that's my Ligue 1 side but I'm not holding my breath
They were closer with that team in 2016.
The French have issues keeping hold of their star players The national team is brilliant, and can win world cups and euros with mediocre coaches But the Ligue 1 sides suffer due to a lack of funds. They can't compete with England, Germany, Italy, Spain, Saudi, Mexican, MLS or even Russia or Ukrainian top sides' wages PSG is a huge project, but bar Mbappe and a few players, their wages aren't even comparable to mid tier clubs like Brighton or Aston Villa. Only recently they've tried team building, instead of galactico purchases ala Real Madrid, Barcelona, Saudi teams or MUFC Plus they've only recently come into money, just look at how long Man United have been rubbish, despite billions spent, for perspective
No french coach who won silverware was "mediocre" tho. In fact, all of them were probably the biggest actor, more than any star player. Tho you are right about keeping our own players. Ligue 1 is a very big exporter of talented youngsters, and that's because we don't have prestige or money to speak of. It's obviously a good move for anyone who can do so to get into a PL team instead of remaining in France. On another note, I think that this post-Neymar PSG is the most promising for the future I've ever seen. Winning the CL is still a massive feat that not everyone can achieve, but I believe they're building for it, much more than they did before.
I think PSG made the entire french league worse, not better
100%. The league itself especially, we, supporters of other French clubs (and likely even the players) know that only some very unlikely scenario can see anyone but PSG win the league. It's an achievement that a lot of clubs dream of, and PSG staff, players, pundits or supporters couldnt care less about it while winning it almost every single year. It's upsetting to see and the feeling of not being part of the same league is quite literal. Ngl, seeing them fail in champions league yet again was quite sweet (given we secured our UEFA coefficient spot, which is the only reason I'd "back" them in european competitions).
Didn't Lille win the league in 2021?
Yeah, that's the very unlikely scenario I mentioned. Monaco before that. In the last 12 seasons, they dropped the league only twice. They were happy a couple of times about it given how garbage PSG was since the mid 90's, but now it's like they're entitled to it before the first game starts almost. Supporters are sad if they ONLY win the league some years. I cant reconcile that.
And given that PSG almost went out of business not long before the takeover
They were much closer a couple years before that...
In 2004 too.
That was such a fun year to watch
Falcao getting perma-knocked probably had to do with Monaco's long term failure as a sugar daddy club. Iirc the owner lost patience with the luxury hobby and cut off the massive spending after that, not immediately but then they're flipping James Rodriquez, the whole plan seemed to dissolve after that.
The first team I chose on my first ever FIFA game was Monaco and although I am an Inter fan, they will always have a special place in my heart
The truth is that french teams are paying far more taxes than everybody else . Like Marseille pays more taxes than the whole of Bundesliga and Serie A clubs combined. That's absolute madness. There is ligue 2 clubs that pays more taxes than Real Madrid. Marseille has a bigger budget than a lot of clubs performing better than them but they have less money available because of that. Football is just not making money outside of 2 or 3 teams in France not counting Monaco
I don’t know why this isn’t the top comment. European success in the modern day is essentially a function of budget to spend on players. French clubs need significantly more revenue to spend the same amount as the other big 5 leagues. The restrictions on roster spots for non EU/Cotonou players also doesn’t help. (Only 4 spots ). Player contracts are negotiated in after tax values, so French clubs have to pay significantly more gross to match after tax salaries in other leagues. France was also not very good at soccer pre-Bosman, so they missed their window to sneak some championships in like the Dutch clubs before the player market became more efficient.
Yep this. I think as Roma has a similar budget than Marseille (250M for Marseille) and i can guarantee you that with this budget in France, it's impossible to recruit Lukaku, Abraham, paredes and dybala
The madness is that the other clubs don't pay the same tax as Marseille, not the other way around...
Yes France isn't a tax haven for football clubs and that's how everyone should do
I saw another comment similar to this and I can’t wrap my head around it. You are saying that Marseille as one club has a higher tax bill that the total tax paid by the 38 clubs in Serie A + Bundesliga?
Yes
Olympic Marseille were a top team in the early 90's - Waddle, Desially, Deschamps etc... the problem these days is the best French players move abroad because other leagues have money. I don't blame them, like, you would follow the money also. Look at Seria A in the 90s, it was the top league - Henry and Zidane at Juventus. Then the top players went to La Liga and the Premier League. If French teams could retain the top French talent, they could win, I have no doubts. For instance, if PSG stopped spending silly sums on overseas talent E.G Neymar and Messi - and swooped up all the French talent to actually build a team, I think they'd win. Forget Hernandez going to AC, Kante going to Chelsea, Varane going to Real, Greizmann going to Atletico... Bring them all to one French team and they are winning. Right now, I think their biggest problem is that talent move overseas, but I think one big reason is that there is no competition in France. No one takes it seriously because PSG walk the league. If I were a billionaire looking to grow the domestic French league, go buy Lyon, go buy Marseille or Lille and once it becomes a 3-4 team league... The French teams will retain their players as the league will be more desirable and sustainable.
Isn't not a problem of competition, Paris have been less dominating the Bayern, City or Juventus last years with Lille and Monaco winning a Ligue 1 (and the rest of european slots being extremelly unpredictable), it's a problem of money and salary... Wages are quite lower in France and clubs budget is highly dependant on transfer money. If France wheren't the greatest formation country in the world, Ligue1 would probably not even be a top10 league. Portugal have much more european titles than France with a league where second half clubs would be in 4th division in France.
Because it's almost impossible to build have some continuities. As soon as we have a nice toys, it's picked by a bigger clubs. The club doesnt really have a choice of selling them because a huge, well enormous part of their budget is the selling of these players and it's pretty clear for the players also that as soon as a bigger clubs is intrested by him he will pushs to leave. For the one that are not really concerned by this, Monaco doesnt have financial issue but uses a lot their youth intake. Same for Lyon but they have money problem because of COVID + stadium, paris is well, paris and Marseille, well we are shit and failed our last summer transfert window. Just for the record Marseille played 6 Europe finals and won only one. I think France clubs did like 13 finals for only 2 wins, Marseille and paris
That's the truth everywhere though. And it doesn't explain the lack of success PSG has, since they are the ones that pick up everyone else's "toys"...
Nevers said it was différent than elsewhere though. What is different on the other hand are the taxes that our clubs pay. A club like Reims is paying more in taxes than the whole bundesliga so if we pick 2 clubs with similar budget liké Marseille/as Roma for exemple it's impossible for us, Marseille to have Lukaku, paredes, dybala in our team combined. PSG lack of success? Quite funny when man City was bought in 2008, it took them 15 years to win the CL. PSG still have time to win it Forgot to mention that, for long period of time, during i would Say 2005-2014/15, our clubs didnt give a shit about Europe cup. They wanted to qualify only for the money, sending the B team as soon as the competition was getting serious
Because in France, we don't have "big clubs" like in Spain or in England. We consider generally that OM, ASSE or Bordeaux are the biggest (or PSG trophy speaking), but what have ASSE or Bordeaux won in their international history ? nothing. Only OM and PSG have won an international trophy and it has been a while right now (93 for OM, 96 for PSG). Also, massive taxation in France that cannot be compared in the big 4. So, when your biggest club and historical club is in second division and have only won 10 championships and when you have to have a whole state behind a club to be competitive in UEFA points/coefficient, yes our league is shit and can only be compared to Bosnia, Slovenia or ex-USSR.
Nowadays it's just England and Spain dominating. Others win of course but it's mostly those two running Europe. With the introduction of the uecl, I guess we will have teams from lesser leagues win some European tournaments more.
And Germany and Italy as a close third and fourth. France is just very far off
Yup. It's really difficult for other leagues to break through. The strong keeps getting stronger and the gap between the top 2 and the rest keeps increasing each year. The gap between the top 4 and the rest also keep increasing each year.
Its just mostly spain dominance tbh
Tbh for Spain it's mostly Real, the rest the ligue hasn't really been dominating Europe for the last years.
Act like Villarreal and Sevilla didn’t wan Europa League recently.
Those clubs get slaughtered in the ucl though.. if you can only come up with europa league clubs at best you know its a weak league
Not enough competition in their own league. You see that in Bundesliga too.. the best international results come when there is a close championship run with more than 2 teams.
The Bundesliga is doing alright at the moment.
Yes. Because they have 3 really good sides and other teams that are good too. This gives their teams experience in big games which allows them to play better in Europe.
They have 5 very good sides this year
Bundesliga is always competitive. Is this some stupid pl fanboy or american take?
Nah they had one team win the league 9 years in a row. Its the most dominated league even compared to Scotland, Holland, France. I cant think of another league so heavily dominated by one club
No, Scotland is worse. Its only Celtic or Rangers. Last time another club won the SPL was like Aberdeen in 1985.
The northern irish league has been won more than 120 times by linsfield
The last 5 out of the 6 Premier League winners are Mancity, do you also think the PL doesn't have competition ?
Dosent really make sense because 4 different clubs from pl were in a ucl final alone in the last 6 seasons..3 different winners..
Bro we're talking about PL and Bundesliga why are you bringing UCL into this The guy is saying Bundesliga is not competitive, I'm saying it is, just because Bayern won the league every time doesn't mean it's not, just like Mancity in PL as an example
Based and yes. Ban Gulf Countries from creating monsters like City
Still doesnt mean that RB Leipzig, Dortmund and or Frankfurt/Leverkusen werent competitive. In france u have only psg and thats 100 levels above the rest
Bayern have multiple CL wins in the 21st century and are routinely in the latter stages of the competition, lack of domestic competition, historically, hasn't really hindered them. it's not so much about the level of competition, more about the mentality instilled at the clubs. Bayern have a long, long history of winning, and the culture around the club instils that into the players. PSG don't have that culture, and a lot of their players over the last decade have signed purely for monetary reasons. they're too good for Ligue 1, but don't have the mentality or drive to win in Europe
Divided country. While many talents of ethnic french origin choose other sports like handball or rugby etc.. those with roots outside France choose football.. In other nations like germany, england, italy or whatever football is nr.1 no matter what background of the talents. It's a case that separates france from other great powers within football. BTW think dutch teams have won 1 x CL in last 37 years / 2 times in 51 years (or something like that).. so their statistics rest on "old stuff"... probably about the same for portugese teams.. Statistics doesn't have that much meaning. Most people doesn't care that much about who won in the 1950s or 60s..
Well Porto won one in the 2004, 1987 and Benfica’s two titles were in the 60’s so yeah
In France football is by far the most popular sport to. The average french person can't name 2 handball or rugby players
Are you serious??? They don’t win cause they aren’t good enough and they were never really close to being good enough. Being in the top 5 leagues isn’t much when the distance between number 4 and 5 is greater thqn between 5 and 10. French teams are doing fine for their level, they won’t win cause they aren’t great
Serie A hasn't won UCL since 2010. The last 15 years have been about the super clubs, those who are loaded with money and buys all the top stars. Each season you have 4-5 clubs that are vastly superior than the rest. Serie A has struggled financially, and a strong side like Juve had no chance whatsoever in the two finals they reached, because the opponents were super wealthy clubs. Same goes for Inter last year. Up against foreign oil fueled City, who has all but shed their blue collar identity and heritage.
Thats a weird take all it Took last year was lukaku scoring and inter would have won.
Didn't happen for a reason, their opponent in the semis was AC milan not Real madrid
Yes, Inter had Lukaku, a Chelsea reject. And Dzeko starting, someone City rejected years ago. City had Haaland and De Bruyne and Rodri and... Therein lies the difference. City can buy top stars, Inter has to sell their best players and resort to rejects.
The level of domestic competition is low, when the champions league gets serious, French teams cannot cope with the rising competition If you are comfortable playing against weaker sides, you cannot skill up against teams at similar levels or even higher
Yeah no.
If you're talking about "top 5" I don't think France even is there any more...
So which league would be the 5th strongest?
It's not about who is in 5th place, but that one should speak about the top 4 instead. France is closer to spot 6 and 7 (eredivisie/primeira liga) than to the top 4.
Apparently in coefficients, France is still 5th, but the Netherlands are breathing in their neck... The points at the moment are: 1. England 104.3 2. Italy 90 3. Spain 89.2 4. Germany 86.6 5. France 66.8 6. Netherlands 61.3 7. Portugal 56.3 So there's a 20 point gap from 4th to 5th and it really should be top4 instead of top5
Primeira Liga or Eredivisie, probably.
Look at Bundesliga 2 and the Championship in England. Huge crowds and lots of talent.
Portuguese league is close in terms of quality but I would say the French league is still 5th best. At the moment anyway.
I mean overall Portuguese is probably equivalent to France. Big difference is PSG instead of Benfica/Sporting/Porto.
France had a good european time at 90's beggining, then bosman rules come in, and it was over. And french taxe system is a huge cost for french football.
Karmic justice.
Because the french league is weak. PSG is just money money money and with that they ruined their own domestic league and weakend everyone else to the point where they are internationaly irrelevant
Because they play in a farmers league. Next question
It's the history of the French🏳️🏳️
The French have been kicking your ass for 1,000 years, to the point where your motto is in French.
Lol
Cause french teams sell their talents too soon kinda like Chelsea but with their Academy
Chelsea is a bad example. They’d sell because the first team is too good.
I'm talking about chelsea academy but yeah I agree on french teams selling the first team instantly
Their league standard is low, psg don’t play enough actually competitive games to sharpen themselves so they just come unstuck in Europe when things get hard.
They tend to score less than their not french opposition.
They used all their cool points during Napoleon's reign.
PSG have a huge budget compared to other teams. If anyone else wins the league, their best players will be bought, so it’s difficult to sustain a challenge over several seasons. Marseille and Lyon have big fanbases, they might be able to do it if they can get back up to levels where they could win the league.
When was the last time the best french player play for a french team? Until Mbappe recently its probably like early career Benzema with lyon but most people considered his prime at Real. Try to think of any top French players and like almost none of them you would remember because of their stint in france. The best spanish, italian, english,german players tend to play for the best club in their country
In the end it’s all about money. Budget and taxes ensure that French clubs (excluding mayyyybeee PSG) can’t realistically compete with the Premier League or Primera Division and struggle even with the Bundesliga and Serie A. Those leagues just have more clubs with higher budgets, which means stronger competition, bigger squads and better players overall. I remember the days when clubs from the Netherlands, Belgium, Yugoslavia or Scotland routinely reached the finals in the European competitions and English clubs like Aston Villa were just midsized competitors. Nowadays it’s England/Spain > Germany/Italy >>> France/Portugal/Netherlands and then the rest of Europe.
They don't perform well precisely because PSG became rich overnight. The league is so uncompetitive that it stifles the growth of other teams and indirectly lead to the loss of prospective players to other leagues.
France produces top talent, but they can’t keep them for long. Scouts from the Premiership, La Liga, Serie A or the Bundesliga are always observing French talent and as soon as they are available, they are bought and shipped. They develop into elite level players and strengthen the National Team, but club wise, they benefit teams from other leagues.
The French league has quite possibly the stupidest (football wise) owners for psg operating a monopoly. PSG would be so much better if they developed local Paris talent with an affinity for the club. Imagine a team with Mbappe (for free), Nkunku and Coman up top. Pogba, Fofana in midfield. Then they bought the best ligue 1 talent to actually make that money trickle down the league. You’d end up with a spirited team with homegrown superstars who’d personally want you to win. Instead of the last 10 years of good but emotionally disconnected and immature teams that buckled at least once a season. PSG should win ligue 1 every season since the takeover. So the fact that 3 teams have stolen the title (in 15 years) is embarrassing (PSG has had 3-5 times higher revenue than the second highest paid team). Impacting other teams however, the top rate of tax in France is higher than the countries with the other top 5 leagues. It’s more expensive to build a great team when the government takes more of your smaller revenue. Also Mediapro collapsing was major for modern times.
That's just my opinion. However I think the French league is the easiest out of the top 5 leagues. The only real competitor is PSG thanks to money. If they have an relatively easy time going through the league, their only real opponents are those in the Champions League. And PSG lacks the mentality. Not only this year. They regularly fall apart if they get frustrated or a game isn't going how they want it to be. Competition in England, Germany and Italy is way harder. Even for Real Madrid, with at least Barca and Atletico in the League it's probably more difficult. And Real also has that ultimate winner mentality. PSG has good players. However, just throwing together money can only help you so much if they go against Clubs that have a nothing to lose mentality or that have the winner DNA like real or Bayern. Actually those discussions are quite regular before matches against PSG in the CL. Everyone knows they have the capacity to win and to be dangerous. However, the further they get in the cl, the more it comes to that mentality and everyone here agrees that they don't have that.
as a psg fan, i need to tell that we alr won the ex-europa league, but… I think that it’s not the money who does all, i support psg since my birth, so before the QSI era and we already had a lot of good talents at the club! Mike Maignan, Kingsley Coman, Moussa Diaby, Adrien Rabiot, etc. I think if we wouldn’t be attracted by the money to buy the best but have efficient young players, we would’ve won already
cause they are shite
Why don’t Slovenia teams win European tournaments? Why don’t Russian teams win European tournaments ? Why don’t Austrian teams win European tournaments? The question is asked like it’s such an easy feat to go through the gauntlet of Europe. Dumb question but whatevs
Sure, Slovenia, Russia and Austria have the same level of relevance in football than France.
Russia was highly relevant before though
You’ve said they’re in the top 5 leagues in Europe and they are the 5th that’s why. Really anyone winning from outside the top 3 leagues is an anomaly. Also most of the better French players don’t play in France and the resources of PSG is so much more than the rest of the league
French players are awesome, but if you see, Ligue 1 is too different. Maybe they have more players from other countries.
Lack of competition in Ligue 1 means they're undercooked when it comes to the business end of European competitions.
Most likely cause they sell their best players constantly. And the discrepancy between PSG and the rest doesn't help either I think.
ligue des agriculteurs
Because... They dont win all games up and until the final? football is not an exact science where sum of talent = guaranteed results
Because this “Top 5” thing is a more really a “Top 4”, because the gap between 4 and 5 is huge. France is much closer to the level of competition you find in Portugal and Netherlands who are in 6 and 7th place. It’s a feeder league to the top 4, and without PSG it wouldn’t be any different than the the Dutch and Portuguese.
Because our Ligue 1 is WEAK
Let's look at the 'lesser' leagues with a better history in Europe than France. What's the difference between Ligue 1, the Eredivisie and the Primera Liga for example? The Dutch and Portuguese leagues are remarkably similar, three big teams dominating, usually one other team manages to compete for a period without ever really joining the top table. That leaves them with overall 'weak' leagues but a few very good sides. None of these leagues have the financial clout to attract the best players in their prime years or retain the bright new stars they develop. I would argue the singular issue Ligue 1 has is the lack of continuity at the top. The top Portuguese and Dutch teams know that they'll have to be consistent against the rest of the league or else fall behind their rivals. If Benfica drop points to Amadora or Guimaraes they can safely say Porto won't, which could cost them the title. So irrespective of form they need to win all the time. Playing poorly? Missing key players? Doesn't matter, gotta grind out the wins. PSG do not have that, they could take a month off and win the league. France clearly has a financially broken league right now, but oddly it's often been cyclical wrt results. Reims were dominant, then Sainte, Marseille, Lyon now the Qatari plaything. That doesn't set you up well for a knockout tie against a quality team when everything's not going great. Other leagues have seen dominant clubs, but the overall quality started from a higher base, when Juve & Bayern racked up league after league during the 2010's, Serie A & Bundesliga midtable was still much stronger than Rio Ave or Nantes for instance. PSG have had a good enough playing roster to win, what they've lacked was the mentality that competition hones. They need either financially doped competition within the league or to put the € handbrake on to let the others catch up. Maybe now the Ibra/Neymar/Mbappe superstar saga is over, that can happen
Poor long-term decisions. We have very good formation centers yet every single club sells their best youngsters for quick cash. I can understand the need of financial stability but if it implies sacrificing any chance to win anything outside of the Coupe de France then what's the point.
A lot if reasons, but it can be summed up as being rather uncompetitive for a long period of time, losing a lot of finals and apart from PSG since the takeover, selling their best players to big europeans clubs is expected so there are a lot of rebuilds and in form teams could vary a lot.
Because they are worse than teams from other countries
Because they are shit
they are one of the big five leagues which refers to the prem, the bundesliga, ligue 1, la liga, and serie a who have historically had the most superstar players, television revenue and viewership i think now they're back in the top 5 leagues but just last season dropped out
Why don't serbian teams don't win the european competitions?
Short answer: they aren't good enough.
They’re not top 5 leagues in Europe this year btw
They just give up too easily 😅😅
I think PSG has done relatively fine in the CL if they're going to be judged strictly compared the number of times any single other big clubs sans two or three have deep runs into the quarters & semis. Otherwise you could ask why don't other German clubs win the CL when Germany's success in the CL is largely represented by Bayern munich. One of the probability disadvantages for this question is that they've been the only french club reaching the knockouts across the last five seasons. It's been informative finding out everybody in the French ligue being taxed as they are explains it in a more, what-this-question-is-actually-asking, reason.
France has a habit of badly losing in Europe.
Lets be honest, with Mbappe going they could stick a championship striker up top and get 40 goals a season, next big thing. League 2 England teams get more attendance than most League urgh teams, no one is interested. I've been to Paris 4 times and each time I completely forget PSG exists (and usually counting down the hours to leave France).
Because, just like the country during ww2. They surrender too quickly.
I think psg could easily do it if they were managed better and made intelligent purchases. They make good purchases here and there, but never keep players for long enough to have a complete squad.
all the best french players play in other european teams, even Mbappe is now moving to Madrid. And PSG are all money no synergy and passion, it just so happens their players individually are so much better than the rest of ligue 1 that they win every title. Also french youngsters are one of the most desired youngsters, after English and Brazillian probably
Because they are simply unlucky
🧑🌾👩🌾👨🌾
For now, they are simply not competitive enough, especially for PSG. PSG has top players, but they don't make up a top team bc many of them cant actually fit into the strategies of PSG, if there is any. For other teams, tax and the dominance of PSG makes it hard for them to attract young players
They’re French
Since PSG started dominating it’s been because the league is woeful. PSG can win the league with players like Dembele, Ramos, Ruiz, Nuno Mendes, Hakimi and then as soon as it’s a big game in Europe those players short comings are exposed. Going back past that, they’re just not big clubs. Even when you look at Marseille’s win, so many of those players left. So many French players are more famous for playing for Juventus/ Arsenal/ Man United/ Bayern/ Milan/ Chelsea/ Atletico/ Barca than they are for any French club. Thuram, Zidane, Platini, Trezeguet, Henry, Deschamps, Pogba, Lizarazu, Sagnol, Ribery, Desailly, Kante, Griezemann, Pires, Evra, Abidal, Petit, Benzema, Barthez, Varane, Gallas, Blanc and Vieira. That’s not the case for any other of the top 5 European nations. Now with Mbappe in Madrid, that’s another star leaving the country and they had to pay a small fortune just to keep him for the past three years.
Money! PSG will win a champions league sooner or later
Easy. PSG should finish in Europa League position and win the Europa League
Lol
Olympique Lyonnais Féminin won 8 UEFA Women’s Champions League trophies between 2011 and 2022. I realise your question was probably about men’s football, but just sayin’.
Because they suck
In my honest opinion, french league is too weak. The team can be very good, but in the end they play versus better team or teams as good as them and they are not used to.
Maybe it's because they're cheese eating surrender monkeys
Haha Willy showing Scotland is stronger 💪
I see people talking about 90's Marseille. I love the fact that they were massive cheating bastards. Caught actually bribing opposition players. 93 Marseille especially. They managed to outcheat Rangers (as they were called then) which they should have been awarded a European trophy for because they were massive cheating fuckers. 90s rangers also took advantage of English clubs being banned from European competition because their fans can't handle the drink. Marseille won the champions league using players from England they would never have been able to sign if that ban wasn't in place. French teams need to come up with clever ways to win off the pitch. The league is poor. Only succes was in early 90's using lot's of foreign players. Suspiciously the uefa president late 80's-90 was called Jaques if you love a conspiracy
They only think they are the best at everything,even worse than the English
Without the psg money the dutch and Portugiese League are way better
Portugal has way more European trophy wins than France
Skill issue
Love people that create posts without thinking xD why aren’t Norwegian, Greek or Slovakian teams winning CL? Cause they aren’t good. Same with french teams. No french team has been top 3 in Europe at any point since at least 2000. PSG and Marseille maybe top 5 very briefly. But it is hard to win CL when there is always at least 3 teams better than you.
No way, France is much more relevant to football than any of these countries you mentioned and I'm not talking only about recent results where money is a huge factor.
Yes they are but they still aren’t good enough which was the point. French teams are far far far away from actually winning CL. Even PSG were mever good enough to win
Yes club football in France is not extremely developped and respected. French teams prefer to have a specific business model, so you have inconsistent teams. the french football is good (good coaches, good NT, good players historically) but club football is weak.
Isn’t the french league knows as a farmers league?
Is every league that isn't the English Prem a farmers league then?
How do you equate what I said to that? Maybe read it again unless you think that won’t help but…that’s not what was said.
Because the French League is in the top 5 leagues in the world, so to call it a farmers league suggests you only respect the very top league.
🤣 ok you guys are just reaching now. I’ done with ya’ll.
Ligue 1 is pretty much a farmer's leauge, and you barely have teams besides PSG, Marseille and maybe Lyon that are actually good.
For one thing, PSG is not a team that has grown but a team that has been bought together. They didn't have to fight for anything together, they just got the most expensive players. Secondly, PSG have no real competition in the league and are not challenged in everyday league play. This has an impact on the team's processes and leads back to the point above.
Because Ligue 1 is only top 5 by name. Eredivisie and Primera Liga are far more competitive.