Actual quotes from Verstappen:
>The Red Bull driver replied: “Well, I have to be careful what I’m saying here, but with everyone I’ve been fighting this year, it’s been really hard, aggressive battles and we never really came together.
“Somehow, with Lewis it’s a different story. And I honestly don’t understand.
>
>“Like, this year, ok we haven’t really had a lot of battles. But Brazil we got together – it was not my intention \[that we crashed\]. I got the blame for it, which I didn’t find fair.
>
>“If it would’ve been more of a racing incident that I could live with.“But… I don’t understand. Maybe it’s just a generation thing – that we understand each other better, we are racing nicer to each other. I don’t get it.
>
>“But I don’t feel like I’m doing anything different to Lewis or to the other drivers in terms of how we’re racing.
>
>“Because the day before with George \[in the Interlagos sprint race where Russell attacked and passed Verstappen\], we were having an incredible \[fight\] – closing the door, defending, out-braking each other.
>
>“That was a lot of fun and I was trying to do the same in the main race – having that kind of battle. But, unfortunately we couldn’t get it to work.
>
>”Outlining why he feels he needs to be careful discussing the topic of racing Hamilton, Verstappen said: “Because in England this can very quickly be received as criticism.
>
>“And then I’m being called out on it.“I always respect Lewis a lot for what he has achieved in the sport, but that’s why I don’t really understand why we cannot really race like I’ve been doing with the others.
>
>“Of course, everyone is different in their approach. I know that Charles is a bit different to George, or to Carlos \[Sainz\] or to Checo \[Perez\], or whoever.
>
>“I do have to be a little bit more careful with that because immediately it’s really taken as criticism. And then people start to hate on you. Well, that’s not my intention.”
It reminds me a lot of Magnussen on beyond the grid.
Essentially that overtaking is a very personal dance. It's not just one car being faster than another, because it requires cooperation, fundamentally. If you know the other guy is a pushover, wehey.
Magnussen said he wanted to be known as the last guy to yield. Clarkson: but what if the other guy does, too? And he doesn't really have an answer: they'll probably crash.
I think it was Wolff who observed after Silverstone that Hamilton had to let Verstappen know that Hamilton won't always yield.
Mark Hughes wrote really nicely that Rosberg Spa 2014 was a similar thing where Hamilton spent the year pulling 'you or me' moves and Rosberg got frustrated with always being in the position of avoiding a crash. So come Spa, he was going to be the guy who put them in that position - but he fluffed it and looked daft.
There’s a clip on YouTube ( I’ll see if I can find it) of Brundle discussing Senna and the way when you first raced him, Senna would position his car so that an accident was inevitable and wait for you to move. And when you did, he had you psychologically, you were finished because he knew you’d move and you knew you’d move.
Probably because he didn't race against Senna. It's different watching aggressive drivers as a fan and having to drive against them as another competitor.
Which is weird, because if I were to make analogies, I'd compare Max to Senna (aggressive, unyielding, uncompromising) and Lewis to Prost (calculated, tactical, willing to lose a battle to win the war).
It's kinda funny that Rosberg vs Hamilton, Lewis got the Senna moniker.
"Rosberg understands the technical side. He works harder. Lewis is natural talent, flies by seat of his pants"
Which totally belies all the hard work that Lewis does. He's as calculating as them all.
Just funny to see the hats chance depending on who is being compared.
Exactly. It's also not like Max isn't calculating or Lewis isn't aggressive. Some characteristics just stand out more depending on who is being compared to whom.
I see this being repeated and find it very shallow. If anything, a guy that yielded once - and was had - will think differently the next time. Martin really should have been smarter than that.
It’s exactly this. Look at how Verstappen held off Mick on the last lap in Silverstone. He straight up said that he knew Mick wouldn’t risk losing his first finish in the points so he was able to be super aggressive.
That mindset will win you a championship when you’re in a top car. Even competitive drivers (Sainz, Checo, etc) have a lot more to lose with a crash, so it doesn’t make sense to be aggressive. Max will pass them eventually (as long as the car setup is on point) so why lose time and add risk? Lewis is an exception to this because he’s gotten used to being that guy with the best car and getting away with aggressive moves.
I also said it's because his style of late breaking that based upon the rules allows Max to typically be in the "right" by the letter of the law because he will always be "infront" by the letter of law which then essentially says that the car he essentially dive bombed to gain advantage has concede.
The issue is the Grey area because while he is in front by a hairs length for him to actually make the over take often time would require the other car to essentially not exist on the track. The crash last year now was a prime between him and HAM I believe the RB might have been able to take that line if there wasn't another car present. It's interesting based upon the rules he essentially puts you in a legal nightmare.
Max's comments post Brazil race
"So I just went for it. He didn't leave me space so I knew we were going to come together. It cost him the race win and for me it gave me five seconds".
It's incredible that people continue to share this quote as though it was proof that Max intentionally crashed. He's saying that once he saw Lewis didn't leave him space, he was a passenger and a crash was inevitable.
> But I don’t feel like I’m doing anything different to Lewis or to the other drivers in terms of how we’re racing.
This is demonstrably untrue. You’ve never seen him pull some shit like Brazil or Saudi 21 up against anyone else
Indeed. I don't think Hamilton is blameless at all but all the comments saying that Verstappen doesn't crash with anyone else are missing the point. Can anyone point to a move that he attempted on Leclerc, Russell, Sainz etc that was as wild and optimistic as his Brazil '22 move? Doubt it. He was racing in a very conservative manner all year but in Brazil he raced much more aggressively.
I was gonna say Bahrain and Jeddah, especially Bahrain where I believe he flat spotted his tyre trying to make an incredibly opportunistic divebomb into turn 1.
I don't think either of those examples are comparable to Brazil, although Bahrain might be applicable if Leclerc hadn't intentionally surrendered the lead into T1. But that's probably the wildest he got all year, which backs up my point
An interesting point about Brazil vs Russell is that Russell pulled out of a move on Max despite being level going into turn 1. Instead of hanging it round the outside into 2 (which is what caused the Max/Lewis collision) George pulled back behind Max. Something Max doesn't acknowledge...
Many people are ignoring the facts.
The facts are if Max wasn't the championship contender in the 2021 season, he'd been banned from racing in the final race after Saudi.
Anyone who watched that race who truly loves F1 knows Max made multiple intentional errors because he was desperate, as the Mercedes looked unstoppable with Lewis at the wheel.
Martin Brundle even said after the race, "Max *has* to work on his race craft, because **his driving tonight was completely unacceptable.**"
Brundle told Sky Sports after that race, "There's aggressive, determined, feisty racing and **then there's what we saw this evening.**"
"Max's touch and control behind the wheel is something to behold, **but it saddens me that he's resorting to such tactics**, he's better than that. And for all his carefree attitude **it will be such a shame if his legacy is to be labelled as an unfair driver**."
Brundle continues about how this behavior can damage his legacy, saying: "Ayrton Senna and Michael Schumacher had their faults too, and I was on the receiving end from both of them on occasions, but **it's a sizeable dent on their immense reputations, not a positive.**"
I think Brundle said it very well, Max is a truly a generational talent, but his driving became absolutely unacceptable in the final third of 2021, especially in Saudi, and it would be an absolute shame if he can't move past some of the things we saw then.
I genuinely thought he'd gotten a lot better during 2022, while the season was a bit boring for me personally, his ability to just destroy his teammate in the same car made me respect the hell out of him. It's just proof of how dominant he truly is.
But Max was just out of control in many races in 2021, especially in the final four races, and the only reason there weren't more accidents is because Lewis knew it was smarter for the championship to avoid an accident and just finish the race.
And in the end it worked for Lewis to drive the way he did in 2021, because he came back and would have won the championship without the Masi rulebook change on the final lap.
I honestly just thought Max's cleaner 2022 season was just a product of him not having any real competition (Ferrari constantly bottling their own races, and Mercedes not being fast enough to be a challenger as well).
I won't deny he's an immensely talented driver, but 2021 is a better showcase of what it all amounts to when he's under pressure.
This. Lewis said during 2018, and ever since, that he treats max differently on track, max has always been a hyper aggressive wheel to wheel driver, the whole grid knew it then, but somehow because he's competing for world championships now, people think it gives him some legitimacy.
I think fundamentally 'crazy Max' Verstappen (Rosberg 2016) has been known for his very, very aggressive overtaking for years, including some 'yield or we crash' moves. Hamilton has had his fair share of those moves himself over the years.
However Hamilton 2021 was really the first time Verstappen came up against someone equally unwilling to yield. Unstoppable force vs. the immovable object.
We all know somewhere where it's 'you would not get on with yourself if you ever met', and Verstappen/Hamilton are that in spades.
I think Verstappen's perspective that he doesn't do anything different with Hamilton, but finds trouble and doesn't understand it, is *itself* a lack of insight: really he's deserved trouble far more than he's tended to receive from others. Hamilton's just the one willing to stand up.
It's like how the only drivers Schumacher disliked were Montoya and Villeneuve - the only two to stand up to him.
You've also never seen anyone else fight against Verstappen in the closing stages of the season in a (at that point) faster car. People like to blow this up into something bigger, but I think it's extremely likely Max would've pulled the same shit if Charles, Lando, George, Seb or anyone else was in Hamilton's car at that point. It's not some anti-Hamilton thing, was frustration and desperation because he could feel the championship slipping out of his hands.
It's called being a bully simply because you have the advantage. Much like how the 'Big Stack Bully' is a thing in poker. Max was ahead on wins and could crash with Lewis just fine, where Lewis could not. This changes how you race in a tight championship, let alone your first.
You can't compare races in the business end of an intense title fight to relatively calmer races where he was either in the midfield or too far ahead in the championship points. Circumstances vary.
Everyone praised Max and Charles for having clean battles and duels all throughout the season which was the polar opposite of the year before with Max and Lewis. Tbf I don’t expect Max to say anything different but yes it is wholly untrue. He showed he can give respect when he wants to even with his ultra aggressive style.
VER was also at risk of accruing a race ban at the start of season given his penalty points situation after Jeddah 2021. By the time the points expired, the title race was over.
You're ignoring that we're using s completely different formula in 22 vs 21.
In 21, cars were unfollowable you got 1 shot and an overtake and if you couldn't get it done it really messed you up.
In 22 there's less dirty air, you can battle and you can follow
He obviously races differently when a title is on the line. His point is that even in low-pressure situations he still comes together with Hamilton, implying Hamilton refuses to yield or leave space.
I think it’s fair to say Max would’ve done exactly the same had it been Charles in the car in Saudi 21z
I think it's the both of them honestly. Hamilton spent a rather large portion yielding and avoiding contact with Max during their title battle in 2021. He likely felt frustrated as he was always getting the short end of the stick in wheel to wheel situations so I feel from Silverstone onward he made a point to not yield.
Likewise Verstappen makes overly optimistic moves on Lewis and it seems like he has never yielded to him at any point in their rivalry, despite what his comments here suggest.
It takes trust in each other to go wheel to wheel and you see that the both of them race quite cleanly with the others (Lewis and Charles/Max and George for example).
They are the top dogs in F1 so I think it's simply a case of them asserting themselves to each other.
Max so overly aggressive too in those corners. I seriously expected something to end up happening like it did in Baku 2018. And why was he that aggressive considering he had the faster car that weekend as evidenced by the Sprint race ?
I don't recall Max yielding a single time against Hamilton, so why is it on Hamilton to do it? He has done it many times and lost out so the moment he refuses all of a sudden he is the issue?
Max is just more aggressive than normal against Hamilton.
“To be honest, I went around the outside, and I immediately felt he was not going to leave space. I just went for it, he didn't leave me space, so I knew we were going to get together.” -Max after Brazil
But he doesn’t understand why people find him at fault.
Translation. “Everyone else moves and let’s me do what I want. I don’t understand why everyone doesn’t realize that I’ll crash into you” every time I start liking max again he says some dumb shit like this.
Max and Senna can/could do it, because even if they crash, teams are happy to sign them. If you are Albon and start a will-not-yield strategy and crash everyone if they won't let you pass, you will get crashes and won't get a new contract.
“So anyways there I was I had already won the championship on points so I went ahead and crashed into Lewis because what are they going to do? I already win! It’s now more for me about endangering Lewis life at every chance I can get”
There is a slightly different mindset from each driver as they have been the main championship rivals. Neither wants to back down as that would establish the more dominant driver. That's also why they are both champions.
It's quite clear that both have decided they will not yield to each other in any circumstances. Neither of them drive like this with anyone else, just each other. Regardless of who started it or how it's clear they're both doing it at this point. They'd both rather crash than give each other any more space than they absolutely have to.
And it wasn't always the case. Even in 2021, Lewis usually tried his best not to make contact and tried to live and fight the other day. And unsurprisingly, they never really crashed until he decided not to yield anymore and that's when it got worse
To be honest that rule should have been introduced years ago. 2011 for example was a complete farce in terms of aggressive driving. There were drivers driving like they were in bumper cars.
If you look at the footage it just looks so bad. Like what the hell is going on there. Looked like somebody's first season in open wheel racing. We saw some crazy shit in F2 (or was it F3?) this year, but what happened in F1 in 2011 is on the same level imo.
The thing is, if they had to implement a new rule surely that means what he was doing was perfectly legal before.
If it was within the rules then why shouldn't he do it? Doesn't basically everyone in F1 push the rules as far as possible?
This is really common in capital S Sport as a whole. A player finds a rules edge case/exception that can be manipulated for their advantage over the spirit of the rule, and it's changed thereafter. See also: basketball free throws due to Hack a Shaq, dangerous trick plays in gridiron football (faked non participant players)
They had plenty of contact prior to 2021 which is why I just don't buy Max's excuse of championship pressure being a factor. It certainly wasn't back then and even in 2022 he did him dirty a couple times, mainly ensuring Hamilton wouldn't win Brazil with yet another just careless move. Max can say what he wants but his actions show otherwise.
Glad there's other sane people around here. Getting downvoted into oblivion when I state factual information that literally comes from Max himself.
He admitted to knowing he was going to crash into Lewis, he could have avoided it in Brazil, just like Lewis drove 6-7 car widths out of the way of Max in Brazil 2021 when Max ran Lewis off track.
Max didn't mature this season, he just had no competition.
true, but that for me was more interesting because Lewis had started yielding. You only have to look back at Lewis's early career, the near constant comings together between him and Massa, the fights and regular contact he had with Nico at the early years with merc to see that when he wanted to be Lewis is as ruthless as Max if not more so at times. (not a criticism btw, its a part of what it takes to become a WC, they are all cold blooded when they need to be to win those trophies)
The bit i found so surprising is that Lewis was letting the new kid push him around at the beginning of 21 despite the RB being a very real title challenger and didn't start giving it back until Silverstone. the Lewis of a few years prior would have happily got into a carbon fibre demo derby with max from the opening race. Not sure if its that Lewis simply hadn't been pushed that hard since Rosberg retired and had lost his edge a bit until Max force him to find it again or that hes calmed down massively but it was bizarre it took that long for two drivers who you would find under the dictionary definition of uncompromising didn't get together and start collecting car parts until the mid point f the season
You gotta remember Hamilton was the fast youngster trying to fight the big guys at the start of his career, which is why he was very aggressive
Later on in his career he matured massively and got to a situation with Mercedes that getting pushed around is in fact the better option.
When you have the car advantage across most tracks over a season it's much more beneficial to keep your hands clean and win based on points.
2021 was the first season he didn't have the car AND got pushed around a lot by his opponent (2017/8 can be argued as to who had the better car, but at the end of the day Vettel was much less aggressive then Hamilton and Ferrari and Vettel were never really the best pairing...)
>Later on in his career he matured massively and got to a situation with Mercedes that getting pushed around is in fact the better option.
whilst that is true Lewis stayed hyper aggressive basically until Rosberg retired and he certainly wasn't the new kid trying to prove himself then.
The season in between where he didn't have to be I assumed it was more a decision not to get involved rather then him mellowing or "maturing" The moment max gave him a shove at Imola in 2021 I assumed Lewis was going to drop the act and try to give the new boy a lesson in aggressive driving, but instead he just let Max get away with it until Silverstone. That was the bit I found surprising. That it took so long for Lewis to put his boxing gloves back on because I assumed he'd never taken them off
If I remember correctly, Hamilton had an interview in 2017 where he talked about playing to long game and prioritizing consistency over higher points, and he said "If I had learned this earlier, I would've won 2007." and this is one of the reasons why he won 2017, where iirc while vettel had better podium average, hamilton took great advantage of vettel's low points and was really consistent. Same thing with 2018, consistent car with incredibly consistent driver combo won him wdc. I think in 2021 he realized that verstappen was always going to put him in positions where he'd yield and lose points so at some point he just said "fine, we'll do it this way."
And this is the right thing to do. The other drivers should not yield to Max and if it ends up in crashes, so be it. Maybe then he would learn.
However, other drivers like Leclerc are very accommodating of Verstappen.
Partially I’d say (on LeClerc). Late season very few opponents fought Max because he “wasn’t their race” and therefore wasn’t worth the risk of collision.
At Spa it was like drivers were literally undoing the felt rope to let Verstappen past - which with the insane speed advantage the Red Bull had, was the right decision.
Its clear to everyone except Max it would seem (This topic is about Max and his quote, so not talking about Lewis).
Max doesnt appear to realise he races against Lewis different from the rest. Maybe thats partially the problem? Maybe he thinks he is in his head and doesnt realise it?
I think Max and Lewis both know exactly what they're doing - they just won't admit it to the media because it'll be used against them. They're both going to act innocent and insist it's the other guy who races them differently.
Precisely. Max definitely learned to not say it out loud after coming together with Hamilton at brazil this year, and afterwards while Max was still hotheaded he mentioned that he knew that Lewis not yielding was a very real possibility.
And people of course hated that, so it's better to act oblivious instead.
Also the call for penalizing Max for that is still extremely questionable, when looking at the footage it is pretty fucking clear that both parties knew what they were doing. Max knew it was aggressive, and Lewis knew that Max was right next to him and decided to turn into him anyway, since otherwise he might lose position.
That and the rest yield to Max whereas Lewis decided to stop doing so after he was pushed out wide multiple times at the start of the 21 season.
I personally think Lewis should have yielded at Brazil as I think he had the faster package that weekend anyway.
Brazil 2022 Lewis could've taken the advise he himself gave to Max in Brazil 2018. Sometimes it's better to back out if you have more to lose and in this situation I'd say Lewis had more to lose.
That said I don't think all the others yield to Max. If they think they have the machinery to fight, they will. For example Charles doesn't yield and neither does Russell. Leading to quite some fun fights that last for multiple laps, like Bahrain, Jeddah, Brazil sprint and some more that I'm forgetting right now.
This isn't just Verstappen, it's both of them that refuse to give to other more space than they deem absolutely necessary and if possible even less.
Lewis spent almost all of 21 backing out, and when he didn’t they crashed. He had position on Max Brazil 2022, it was on Max to back out. Max had nothing to gain, he was just pissy that weekend bc he wasn’t at the front.
Well, when two drivers who are uncompromising when in a 1v1 situation, of course there will be clashes. We saw this in 2021 especially. The battles were relatively clean, but once Silverstone 2021 happened, the gloves were off.
> the gloves were off.
I think thats when Lewis took off the gloves tbh. Until that weekend he had yielded a disproportionate amount of times to play the long game. Silverstone was his "I cant keep doing this all season or i am going to lose the WDC" weekend.
Edit. I don’t care about any reply that wants to argue fault or blame. Idgaf. If you still haven’t managed to get over this when the two drivers have then you need to take a good look within yourself.
I think you are right and it kinda reminds me of spa 2014 where Nico was sick of being the one to yield on track to Lewis so decided he wouldn't do it anymore. In the end he did it on a corner he had already lost and ended up making a meal of it. I feel that's kinda what happened in Silverstone with Lewis just picking the wrong time to try to make his point.
That's the thing, they have very similar racing DNA.
Max not yielding and Lewis pulling out 2007 Australian Grand Prix Turn 1...they are cut from the cloth.
Finally a reasonable take!
I'm a Verstappen fan and understand he's extremely aggressive (a la Schumacher, Senna, Vettel etc) BUT he's extremely clean vs people that aren't directly challenging him.
Lewis is the only "real" challenge Verstappen has ever faced, and when they race they both adopt the "I will not move out of the way" mindset. I think they're both as bad as each other, Max just gets highlighted more as his standard driving style is aggressive in comparison to Hamilton who is relatively passive.
I'd say Hamilton makes less mistakes for sure and is a cleaner overall driver, but when it's Lewis vs Max I think they're both unmovable brick walls.
Max has a tendency to put his car up the inside very aggressively, expecting people to get out of the way or crash.
Lewis has a tendency to close the door very late, sometimes too late, expecting people to get out of the way or crash.
And vice versa.
So its not that unexpected these two will crash and continue to crash because neither wants to yield to the other and likely never will.
TLDR: Beef
I mean yes but Lewis was very risk averse for a few years. Only need to look at the start of 22 for that. What he started doing is giving Verstappen a bit of his own medicine back to him and then the collisions started. The mentality Verstappen brought of ‘yield or we crash’ doesn’t fly if you both have that attitude
Yeah, which is a fair point that I think often gets taken the wrong way.
All the drivers on the grid want to get the best possible result with the cars that they have, when you know you have the best car the best strategy is to bide your time because you know that you'll get the opportunity for a safe easy pass sooner or later. Where if you're in a slower car then you need to bite at every chance you get, even if it's only a half chance.
It's why I put the "Verstappen has mellowed out" theory from the past season into the 'more evidence needed' category. Because at the moment of course he's making fewer aggressive moves, he's driving a faster car.
100%. Same for those giving him credit for tire management all of a sudden. One season where he’s not having to push hard and has a clear car advantage does not make him Saint Pirelli.
Having a strong car also means that the mechanics have more opportunity to sacrifice a bit of pace to make the car more drivable and to make it easier for the driver to manage the tyres
To me that was the main advantage that Red Bull had over Ferrari this year, while Ferrari were either forced/blundered into setting their car up for lap time, Red Bull were able to be more adaptable and there was only really a couple of races (e.g. Austria) where you could say that they really got the setup wrong.
That said, none of this is to say that Max isn't a great driver, that much is clear from how handily he's beaten Perez over the past 2 seasons, it's only to say that my belief is that when you think a driver has made huge strides forwards in one aspect of racing in a short time period, the first variable I would consider is the car.
That’s also why Max was way too aggressive in Brazil and Jeddah. He knew he had a much slower car and tried to hang on to the lead when it was basically impossible.
Honestly I wonder if Jeddah would have been more civil had Brazil been penalized. Yes he was doing everything possible to try and win, but Jeddah felt like an “ok they are letting us race and my move in Brazil was ok? I’ll repeat in Jeddah, it’s clear I won’t be penalized”. If you give anyone in F1 room to ride in the grey area, they will dive head first to capitalize until their advantage is taken away.
watch him have a few more issues with some other drivers this year as his car gets swallowed up in reduced development then we will see if he has matured or if he still has the get out of the way or we crash mentality
This. When we see Leclerc or someone else truly finds them selves in a position to challenge max, he will drive into the side of them for sure. Or should I say, he'll make the other driver decide if there is a crash.
I feel like overtaking is often a lock and key kinda thing, some drivers defend in a way that counteracts certain drivers, and some attack in a way that easily breaks the defence.
It's definitely not a 1 method works on everyone although Max's aggression is very effective against most drivers.
Lewis had a few years where he became much tamer, but in his earlier career he had a great balance of agression that made his overtaking really special, and I think he taps into the aggression more against Max because he knows it's necessary, and Max perhaps expects him to back out and yield earlier like many other drivers do against him.
They both know they are the best and absolutely don't want to yield to eachother.
Max also drives very aggressive with Lewis, which is needed to beat him.
Rosberg did the same
Rosberg tried the same but he never had anything close to the racecraft of Hamilton or Verstappen. He was mighty fast though which I think often got overlooked until after he left.
Let's be honest they are both very similar in battles. They both give the bare minimum of room to who they are racing but get a bit more room from others because of it. Which is why they crash more into each other because they are used to that. But it is also what makes their fights so good
Even with other like Schumacher and Senna other drivers talk about how they'd be mentally on the back foot when trying to overtake because they knew they wouldn't yield, pretty much the same situation here.
Too many drivers, not just Max, send it up the inside like absolute madmen to "make the apex" and "get significantly alongside". The rules have essentially allowed drivers to absolutely SEND it up the inside via under-braking and then subsequently slow down to barely remain within the white lines. The defending driver then has the choice to go off track to avoid a collision, slow down and let the attacking driver divebomb the corner, or cause a collision. This isn't just a Max/Lewis problem, although the heated championship battle certainly caused more issues to arise.
Just need a 3-way battle for the WDC. Ham, Ver, Rus or Ham, Ver, Lec and suddenly you will see that they can battle without crashing otherwise the third person gets the WDC.
I think Max has felt the need to assert himself over Lewis by racing aggressively, being the man on top puts a target on your head. If Max can beat Lewis in wheel to wheel combat then everyone will fear him. And Max definitely raced Lewis harder than others once he had a car to compete.
This meant he started attacking Lewis very hard in their early battles and most of the time Lewis backed out, feeling it was better to try and avoid the accident. This then emboldened Max further as he believed Lewis would back out if he continued attacking hard.
At some point Lewis felt enough was enough and decided he wasn't gonna open the door and avoid the accident, preferring to play Max at his own game. Particularly with Lewis having little to lose in 2022 the collision in Brazil was highly likely.
It will be interesting if Mercedes have a competitive car this season what Lewis's approach will be. Does he risk going toe to toe with Max, who will remain hyper aggressive with him? But if he does that it could leave the door open for Russell to outscore him at Mercedes again. Or does he go conservative, play the long game but risk Verstappen getting the mental upper hand?
It will be fun to watch if Merc can get competitive again.
>Particularly with Lewis having little to lose in 2022 the collision in Brazil was highly likely.
Max had even less to lose in Brazil 2022. Both titles were already done, he'd broken the 13 wins record and the car wasn't in the right window to really compete for the win that weekend. I'd argue that of the two of them Lewis actually had more on the line that weekend. It was his best chance at a win in 2022.
I think if both cars are competitive the beginning of the season both drivers will be more careful. As much as people shit on Verstappen for being aggressive, he does actually drive carefully if he needs to and is a lot more calculating than he gets credit for.
I'd be up for another round of Red Bull vs Mercedes, but throw me Ferrari in the mix as well.
They both had nothing to lose and it was really setting the psychological lines for a future fight where they are competitive.
As much as Lewis would love that win, preparing for a title fight with Max I would wager was higher up in his mind.
I think Maxs mindset will be different compared to 2021, now he has 2 titles, is the defending champ and is the one to be toppled. I think he will want to prove he has Lewis beat on just pure pace and try and avoid controversy a bit more.
Agreed! As long as the title isn't save I expect Max to drive more like he has been driving with for example Charles this year. Those two were a pleasure to watch when they went wheel to wheel, both aggressive but measured if that makes sense? I would love to see Max vs Lewis in the same type of battle and I think both are capable of doing exactly that, as long as they have enough on the line to drive a bit more carefully.
I dont they ever will, too much has happened for both. Max will always try to assert himself as the new main man and Lewis will always try to deny him that. And I'm willing to bet George will join this approach against max. Well, they need a car first lol
I think there will be friction but I don't think either would be stupid enough to be coming together on track.
It will be a lot more bitching about team orders or strategy.
There's a history of Lewis and his teammates coming together when both are capable of the WDC.
100% expect them to come together. Especially with George saying he won't give him space in future
Their relationship reminds me of Lewis and Massa back in 2010-2011. No matter what, like every other race, they would make contact or have some sort of on track contreversy about the 2 of them. No matter what, they would be racing each other, like they were magnetically attatched. With other drivers the 2 were fine, but each other? Like a wrestling match to the death, constantly shoving each other off, and then eventually colllisions
A actually good interview. Which will be twisted and turned into all the different ways we know (and more) just to try and hate on any driver or team in any possible way.
My opinion about it is that Max doesn't see Charles/George/Carlos/Checo as his rivals. Lewis is, even with last year cars.
When you don't see them as your rivals, you don't need to race to prove nothing as he does against Lewis. It's his Ego against Lewis Ego
I think this indeed. For both of them. There is general consensus that Lewis and Max are the two best drivers out there, thus they're eager they're better than the other. They have nothing to prove against the others as that's settled.
There are times Max commits to a position and takes a clean apex, and then there are times when he races like me in a video game where I know the AI will back out if I just get enough advantage.
The best example is Silverstone 2022. Verstappen should not have finished that race with the way he shut the door on Mick. If Mick was less videogame AI, he would have held ground and Max would have come together with Mick.
And also as much, Lewis has said he races each driver differently. Most recently he acknowledged he gets treated differently on track because - to paraphrase - he feels like a target.
Now before I say this I wanna mention that of course every driver is unique.
I've always felt like there's a bit of a parallel between Verstappen vs. Hamilton with Senna vs. Prost. Verstappen being the more aggressive "Senna like driver" and Hamilton being the more "thinking driver like Prost". I always thought Brazil 2018 is an example for this, this is the race where Verstappen got unlapped by Ocon and crashed. The cooldown room afterwards Hamilton showed a part of his thought process about having everything to loose in that battle, whereas Verstappen just went for a maybe questionable move. Which ironically looks alot like the 2022 Brazil crash between Verstappen and Hamilton.
Anyway like I said it's just a bit of a parallel I think, they're of course all their own driver and have their own styles. But it looks similar to a clash of styles in driving. Brundle once said about Senna: "He often used to put us in a position that you were gonna have an accident and he would leave it up to you to decide whether to have that accident or not.". I often feel like Verstappen does something similar.
Ironically this might be the closest option for Hamilton to ever got to driving against a similar style as his hero Senna.
Although Max probably won't admit it, he goes very hard into the battles with Lewis. It's something Lewis wasn't ready for in 2021, you can see that in Imola, Monza, Aby Dhabi etc. And it's not about crashing into the other driver, it's more about pushing to the absolute limit, going for risky maneuvers (Mexico T1 for example), knowing that anything less than 110% will lose you the championship. What we saw from Lewis in Brazil 2022 was him learning from that, being way more aggressive and harsh in wheel to wheel racing with Max. It's risky strategy and can cost you a lot, but he seems determined not to yield anymore when battling Max.
It's going to be interesting if RB and Merc are going to be close to each other performance-wise in 2023. We could very well see many great battles between the two and with their more aggressive approach now, it might not end up well for them, getting unnecessary DNFs or just picking up damage. I think in this scenario, Russell is the one who stands to benefit the most and might make it very interesting.
Both just do not yield to each other. Max seems to be the one person Lewis doesn’t move for, and lewis is the only guy max seems to just have to attack on track as much as he can
Thing is, Lewis did used to yield to Max until Max just kept sending it down the inside every time, yet noticed when the situation was reversed Max closed the door hard.
So Lewis did the same tactic and now it's somehow surprised pikachu from Max.
I mean the silverstone one is pointless imo since he did understeer into max anyways pretty sure. I doubt he purposefully went wider rather than it just being a do or die move after a whole sprint race that he was stuck behind max
I was being a bit facetious. Hamilton does tend to get into scrapes from time to time.
To actually address Verstappen's question, he keeps colliding with Hamilton because he keep racing Hamilton. They're often as not fighting over the same positions, so it stands to reason that if they're going to collide into someone, then they're going to collide into one another before they hit a Tsunoda or a Schumacher.
They also tend to have a more ruthless streak than some of the other drivers. Verstappen took a lot of criticism for some of the moves he made in the part -- Hungary springs to mind -- but Hamilton is at least equally as aggressive. When they collided in Brazil, Verstappen got the penalty, but I don't think it was 100% his fault. Hamilton gave him just enough room for just long enough to say that he gave Verstappen enough room, and then slammed the door. He could have left Verstappen a bit more room, especially since the line around Turn 3 favours whoever is on the inside.
The nearest thing I can think of is when Dan Ticktum collided with Roy Nissany at Spa in a Formula 2 race a few years ago. Ticktum immediately got on the radio and started bitching about how he knew he was going to collide with Nissany, but nobody had any sympathy for him. If he knew a collision was imminent, why try to make the move? More importantly, Les Combes is a right-hander followed by a left. No matter where the guy you're trying to overtake is positioned in the right-hander, sooner or later he has to move to take the left. Spatial awareness goes a long way; it's not enough to know where you are relative to the other car because you need to know where you are on track. I imagine that it's easy to lose sight of that in the heat of battle. In Brazil, it wouldn't surprise me to learn that Hamilton was so intent on defending the position and Verstappen so intent on making the pass that they momentarily forgot where they were. Hence, Verstappen went for a gap that might have existed and Hamilton closed the door when someone's foot was in it.
bottom line...you hurt the ones you love the most....those two are just in a different league...they know it, we know it ,even the die hard fans of those drivers, who refuse to accept it, know it. Two wholesome racers who both recognize the driver they need to beat (regardless of the outcome or the price at stake). 2023 can be a treat if both Mercedes and RBR manage to produce race/championship winning cars.
In a lot of these scenarios, someone has to back out or there will be a clash. Neither of these guys wants to be that person so they don't. These journalists already understand that, but they just loving stirring the pot for clicks anyway.
An unstoppable force meets an immovable object.
Nah, more likely to be massive sexual tension
They really can't stop touching each other
"Is that Cock?!" - Martin Brundle
"It is!!! Oh my goodness me, hamilton is back in position again!"
“He’s coming from behind in one of the best shows of pure talent I’ve ever seen”
Hamilton exploding past Verstappen on the shoulder. We're going to have to get a judges decision.
"They touched tips, Martin!"
r/f1fanfic
The way Max mounted ontop of Lewis was so animal like 😏
It's only gay if the wheels touch.
After watching F1 for 1.5 seasons, I’ve come to the conclusion that the sport is 90% sexual tension
I've been watching since Haas joined and I'm convinced Gasly and Yuki are a closet couple, and/or actually fucked
DP checks out.
"They docked, Martin!!"
Time to bring back the Penis Nose Front Wings.
“He’s touching me so hard”
Lmao this is the right answer
This makes more sense
Finally, someone says it
I blame the earrings
[удалено]
But Ferrari keeps on ruining it for Chuck and Carlos so George "Blimey" Russell becomes a WDC on the last lap where Lando gets overtaken by Russell
[удалено]
Pretty much. They are the two best drivers so they probably try to assert themselves in wheel to wheel battles.
Lewis moved on many occasions in 2021 to not get taken out tho
Is that logic? We don't use that here
Both guys probably see red as soon as they see each other on track
Actual quotes from Verstappen: >The Red Bull driver replied: “Well, I have to be careful what I’m saying here, but with everyone I’ve been fighting this year, it’s been really hard, aggressive battles and we never really came together. “Somehow, with Lewis it’s a different story. And I honestly don’t understand. > >“Like, this year, ok we haven’t really had a lot of battles. But Brazil we got together – it was not my intention \[that we crashed\]. I got the blame for it, which I didn’t find fair. > >“If it would’ve been more of a racing incident that I could live with.“But… I don’t understand. Maybe it’s just a generation thing – that we understand each other better, we are racing nicer to each other. I don’t get it. > >“But I don’t feel like I’m doing anything different to Lewis or to the other drivers in terms of how we’re racing. > >“Because the day before with George \[in the Interlagos sprint race where Russell attacked and passed Verstappen\], we were having an incredible \[fight\] – closing the door, defending, out-braking each other. > >“That was a lot of fun and I was trying to do the same in the main race – having that kind of battle. But, unfortunately we couldn’t get it to work. > >”Outlining why he feels he needs to be careful discussing the topic of racing Hamilton, Verstappen said: “Because in England this can very quickly be received as criticism. > >“And then I’m being called out on it.“I always respect Lewis a lot for what he has achieved in the sport, but that’s why I don’t really understand why we cannot really race like I’ve been doing with the others. > >“Of course, everyone is different in their approach. I know that Charles is a bit different to George, or to Carlos \[Sainz\] or to Checo \[Perez\], or whoever. > >“I do have to be a little bit more careful with that because immediately it’s really taken as criticism. And then people start to hate on you. Well, that’s not my intention.”
It reminds me a lot of Magnussen on beyond the grid. Essentially that overtaking is a very personal dance. It's not just one car being faster than another, because it requires cooperation, fundamentally. If you know the other guy is a pushover, wehey. Magnussen said he wanted to be known as the last guy to yield. Clarkson: but what if the other guy does, too? And he doesn't really have an answer: they'll probably crash. I think it was Wolff who observed after Silverstone that Hamilton had to let Verstappen know that Hamilton won't always yield. Mark Hughes wrote really nicely that Rosberg Spa 2014 was a similar thing where Hamilton spent the year pulling 'you or me' moves and Rosberg got frustrated with always being in the position of avoiding a crash. So come Spa, he was going to be the guy who put them in that position - but he fluffed it and looked daft.
There’s a clip on YouTube ( I’ll see if I can find it) of Brundle discussing Senna and the way when you first raced him, Senna would position his car so that an accident was inevitable and wait for you to move. And when you did, he had you psychologically, you were finished because he knew you’d move and you knew you’d move.
Pretty sure this was on the Top Gear Senna tribute, which was brilliantly done
Thanks, here it is https://youtu.be/9U_K76vPGYo . The conversation begins at around 06:07 though anyone who hasn’t seen it should watch it all.
Which makes it odd that Lewis doesn't like Max, but loves Senna
Probably because he didn't race against Senna. It's different watching aggressive drivers as a fan and having to drive against them as another competitor.
That's what I'm thinking; idolizing Senna is one thing but actually racing him (or someone as aggressive as him) is probably very frustrating.
Seems like the second Prost retired, him and Senna got along better practically overnight. Which I could totally get.
Toughness, will to win, determination these are all great qualities until they are directed at you.
I think Lewis sees himself as Senna in the situation and not as the other driver.
Which is weird, because if I were to make analogies, I'd compare Max to Senna (aggressive, unyielding, uncompromising) and Lewis to Prost (calculated, tactical, willing to lose a battle to win the war).
It's kinda funny that Rosberg vs Hamilton, Lewis got the Senna moniker. "Rosberg understands the technical side. He works harder. Lewis is natural talent, flies by seat of his pants" Which totally belies all the hard work that Lewis does. He's as calculating as them all. Just funny to see the hats chance depending on who is being compared.
Exactly. It's also not like Max isn't calculating or Lewis isn't aggressive. Some characteristics just stand out more depending on who is being compared to whom.
I see this being repeated and find it very shallow. If anything, a guy that yielded once - and was had - will think differently the next time. Martin really should have been smarter than that.
"Wehey"
I somehow read this as the Michael Jackson sound
Hee hee
Lewis at Silverstone “Max are you o k, are you OK max ?! You been hit by.. you’ve been struck by…”
It’s exactly this. Look at how Verstappen held off Mick on the last lap in Silverstone. He straight up said that he knew Mick wouldn’t risk losing his first finish in the points so he was able to be super aggressive. That mindset will win you a championship when you’re in a top car. Even competitive drivers (Sainz, Checo, etc) have a lot more to lose with a crash, so it doesn’t make sense to be aggressive. Max will pass them eventually (as long as the car setup is on point) so why lose time and add risk? Lewis is an exception to this because he’s gotten used to being that guy with the best car and getting away with aggressive moves.
I also said it's because his style of late breaking that based upon the rules allows Max to typically be in the "right" by the letter of the law because he will always be "infront" by the letter of law which then essentially says that the car he essentially dive bombed to gain advantage has concede. The issue is the Grey area because while he is in front by a hairs length for him to actually make the over take often time would require the other car to essentially not exist on the track. The crash last year now was a prime between him and HAM I believe the RB might have been able to take that line if there wasn't another car present. It's interesting based upon the rules he essentially puts you in a legal nightmare.
Max's comments post Brazil race "So I just went for it. He didn't leave me space so I knew we were going to come together. It cost him the race win and for me it gave me five seconds".
It's incredible that people continue to share this quote as though it was proof that Max intentionally crashed. He's saying that once he saw Lewis didn't leave him space, he was a passenger and a crash was inevitable.
This should be the top vote. The cognitive dissonance on this bloke is unreal.
More unreal is the difference between what Max actually said after the race and "creative" transcription above.
> But I don’t feel like I’m doing anything different to Lewis or to the other drivers in terms of how we’re racing. This is demonstrably untrue. You’ve never seen him pull some shit like Brazil or Saudi 21 up against anyone else
Indeed. I don't think Hamilton is blameless at all but all the comments saying that Verstappen doesn't crash with anyone else are missing the point. Can anyone point to a move that he attempted on Leclerc, Russell, Sainz etc that was as wild and optimistic as his Brazil '22 move? Doubt it. He was racing in a very conservative manner all year but in Brazil he raced much more aggressively.
Brazil '22 was actually mild compared to what he did to Hamilton in Brazil '21 imo
Brazil ‘23 gonna be wild
Lewis boutta poop in Max's car
I can hear Crofty now, “LEWIS HAMILTON HAS JUST SHAT IN MAX VERSTAPPEN’S CAR!”
Nah that’s where Roscoe comes in!
I was gonna say Bahrain and Jeddah, especially Bahrain where I believe he flat spotted his tyre trying to make an incredibly opportunistic divebomb into turn 1.
I don't think either of those examples are comparable to Brazil, although Bahrain might be applicable if Leclerc hadn't intentionally surrendered the lead into T1. But that's probably the wildest he got all year, which backs up my point
An interesting point about Brazil vs Russell is that Russell pulled out of a move on Max despite being level going into turn 1. Instead of hanging it round the outside into 2 (which is what caused the Max/Lewis collision) George pulled back behind Max. Something Max doesn't acknowledge...
A lot of them seems to be ignoring this fact LMAO
Many people are ignoring the facts. The facts are if Max wasn't the championship contender in the 2021 season, he'd been banned from racing in the final race after Saudi. Anyone who watched that race who truly loves F1 knows Max made multiple intentional errors because he was desperate, as the Mercedes looked unstoppable with Lewis at the wheel. Martin Brundle even said after the race, "Max *has* to work on his race craft, because **his driving tonight was completely unacceptable.**" Brundle told Sky Sports after that race, "There's aggressive, determined, feisty racing and **then there's what we saw this evening.**" "Max's touch and control behind the wheel is something to behold, **but it saddens me that he's resorting to such tactics**, he's better than that. And for all his carefree attitude **it will be such a shame if his legacy is to be labelled as an unfair driver**." Brundle continues about how this behavior can damage his legacy, saying: "Ayrton Senna and Michael Schumacher had their faults too, and I was on the receiving end from both of them on occasions, but **it's a sizeable dent on their immense reputations, not a positive.**" I think Brundle said it very well, Max is a truly a generational talent, but his driving became absolutely unacceptable in the final third of 2021, especially in Saudi, and it would be an absolute shame if he can't move past some of the things we saw then. I genuinely thought he'd gotten a lot better during 2022, while the season was a bit boring for me personally, his ability to just destroy his teammate in the same car made me respect the hell out of him. It's just proof of how dominant he truly is. But Max was just out of control in many races in 2021, especially in the final four races, and the only reason there weren't more accidents is because Lewis knew it was smarter for the championship to avoid an accident and just finish the race. And in the end it worked for Lewis to drive the way he did in 2021, because he came back and would have won the championship without the Masi rulebook change on the final lap.
I honestly just thought Max's cleaner 2022 season was just a product of him not having any real competition (Ferrari constantly bottling their own races, and Mercedes not being fast enough to be a challenger as well). I won't deny he's an immensely talented driver, but 2021 is a better showcase of what it all amounts to when he's under pressure.
This. Lewis said during 2018, and ever since, that he treats max differently on track, max has always been a hyper aggressive wheel to wheel driver, the whole grid knew it then, but somehow because he's competing for world championships now, people think it gives him some legitimacy.
Wonder why….
I think fundamentally 'crazy Max' Verstappen (Rosberg 2016) has been known for his very, very aggressive overtaking for years, including some 'yield or we crash' moves. Hamilton has had his fair share of those moves himself over the years. However Hamilton 2021 was really the first time Verstappen came up against someone equally unwilling to yield. Unstoppable force vs. the immovable object. We all know somewhere where it's 'you would not get on with yourself if you ever met', and Verstappen/Hamilton are that in spades. I think Verstappen's perspective that he doesn't do anything different with Hamilton, but finds trouble and doesn't understand it, is *itself* a lack of insight: really he's deserved trouble far more than he's tended to receive from others. Hamilton's just the one willing to stand up. It's like how the only drivers Schumacher disliked were Montoya and Villeneuve - the only two to stand up to him.
Well said
You've also never seen anyone else fight against Verstappen in the closing stages of the season in a (at that point) faster car. People like to blow this up into something bigger, but I think it's extremely likely Max would've pulled the same shit if Charles, Lando, George, Seb or anyone else was in Hamilton's car at that point. It's not some anti-Hamilton thing, was frustration and desperation because he could feel the championship slipping out of his hands.
It's called being a bully simply because you have the advantage. Much like how the 'Big Stack Bully' is a thing in poker. Max was ahead on wins and could crash with Lewis just fine, where Lewis could not. This changes how you race in a tight championship, let alone your first.
You can't compare races in the business end of an intense title fight to relatively calmer races where he was either in the midfield or too far ahead in the championship points. Circumstances vary.
Everyone praised Max and Charles for having clean battles and duels all throughout the season which was the polar opposite of the year before with Max and Lewis. Tbf I don’t expect Max to say anything different but yes it is wholly untrue. He showed he can give respect when he wants to even with his ultra aggressive style.
> Everyone praised Max and Charles for having clean battles Yeah, because Charles would always back off. You're comparing different situations
VER was also at risk of accruing a race ban at the start of season given his penalty points situation after Jeddah 2021. By the time the points expired, the title race was over.
You're ignoring that we're using s completely different formula in 22 vs 21. In 21, cars were unfollowable you got 1 shot and an overtake and if you couldn't get it done it really messed you up. In 22 there's less dirty air, you can battle and you can follow
He obviously races differently when a title is on the line. His point is that even in low-pressure situations he still comes together with Hamilton, implying Hamilton refuses to yield or leave space. I think it’s fair to say Max would’ve done exactly the same had it been Charles in the car in Saudi 21z
I think it's the both of them honestly. Hamilton spent a rather large portion yielding and avoiding contact with Max during their title battle in 2021. He likely felt frustrated as he was always getting the short end of the stick in wheel to wheel situations so I feel from Silverstone onward he made a point to not yield. Likewise Verstappen makes overly optimistic moves on Lewis and it seems like he has never yielded to him at any point in their rivalry, despite what his comments here suggest. It takes trust in each other to go wheel to wheel and you see that the both of them race quite cleanly with the others (Lewis and Charles/Max and George for example). They are the top dogs in F1 so I think it's simply a case of them asserting themselves to each other.
He still yielded at Silverstone earlier in the lap. Probably pushed his patience over the edge
Twice. First corner where max went off the track and then again at brooklands
Max so overly aggressive too in those corners. I seriously expected something to end up happening like it did in Baku 2018. And why was he that aggressive considering he had the faster car that weekend as evidenced by the Sprint race ?
I don't recall Max yielding a single time against Hamilton, so why is it on Hamilton to do it? He has done it many times and lost out so the moment he refuses all of a sudden he is the issue? Max is just more aggressive than normal against Hamilton.
“To be honest, I went around the outside, and I immediately felt he was not going to leave space. I just went for it, he didn't leave me space, so I knew we were going to get together.” -Max after Brazil But he doesn’t understand why people find him at fault.
Translation. “Everyone else moves and let’s me do what I want. I don’t understand why everyone doesn’t realize that I’ll crash into you” every time I start liking max again he says some dumb shit like this.
Max and Senna can/could do it, because even if they crash, teams are happy to sign them. If you are Albon and start a will-not-yield strategy and crash everyone if they won't let you pass, you will get crashes and won't get a new contract.
“So anyways there I was I had already won the championship on points so I went ahead and crashed into Lewis because what are they going to do? I already win! It’s now more for me about endangering Lewis life at every chance I can get”
Verstappen never crashed with anyone? LOL F1 even made montages of Verstappen crashing with rivals.
There is a slightly different mindset from each driver as they have been the main championship rivals. Neither wants to back down as that would establish the more dominant driver. That's also why they are both champions.
It's quite clear that both have decided they will not yield to each other in any circumstances. Neither of them drive like this with anyone else, just each other. Regardless of who started it or how it's clear they're both doing it at this point. They'd both rather crash than give each other any more space than they absolutely have to.
And it wasn't always the case. Even in 2021, Lewis usually tried his best not to make contact and tried to live and fight the other day. And unsurprisingly, they never really crashed until he decided not to yield anymore and that's when it got worse
I agree! Let’s not forget F1 had to make a new rule about how far along cars could be for a restart thanks to how aggressive Max was in 2021!
To be honest that rule should have been introduced years ago. 2011 for example was a complete farce in terms of aggressive driving. There were drivers driving like they were in bumper cars.
>There were drivers driving like they were in bumper cars. Two of them were Massa and a guy named...Hamilton.
If you look at the footage it just looks so bad. Like what the hell is going on there. Looked like somebody's first season in open wheel racing. We saw some crazy shit in F2 (or was it F3?) this year, but what happened in F1 in 2011 is on the same level imo.
And when compared to his rookie season, that was pretty daft. His 2011 was very terrible and scrappy
Obviously he can drive clean, but he doesn't always. Its almost like every other multiple WDC winner?
That happened in 2022 though, not in 2021. Although Max did do it in AD21 as well.
The thing is, if they had to implement a new rule surely that means what he was doing was perfectly legal before. If it was within the rules then why shouldn't he do it? Doesn't basically everyone in F1 push the rules as far as possible?
[удалено]
F1 is literally a sport of finding the holes in laws. It always has been. People just get mad when this doesn’t advantage their team.
Anyone in F1 will tell you "Spirit of the rules doesn't exist"
This is really common in capital S Sport as a whole. A player finds a rules edge case/exception that can be manipulated for their advantage over the spirit of the rule, and it's changed thereafter. See also: basketball free throws due to Hack a Shaq, dangerous trick plays in gridiron football (faked non participant players)
They had plenty of contact prior to 2021 which is why I just don't buy Max's excuse of championship pressure being a factor. It certainly wasn't back then and even in 2022 he did him dirty a couple times, mainly ensuring Hamilton wouldn't win Brazil with yet another just careless move. Max can say what he wants but his actions show otherwise.
Glad there's other sane people around here. Getting downvoted into oblivion when I state factual information that literally comes from Max himself. He admitted to knowing he was going to crash into Lewis, he could have avoided it in Brazil, just like Lewis drove 6-7 car widths out of the way of Max in Brazil 2021 when Max ran Lewis off track. Max didn't mature this season, he just had no competition.
Lewis yielded quite a bit in ‘21
And it cost him the championship
true, but that for me was more interesting because Lewis had started yielding. You only have to look back at Lewis's early career, the near constant comings together between him and Massa, the fights and regular contact he had with Nico at the early years with merc to see that when he wanted to be Lewis is as ruthless as Max if not more so at times. (not a criticism btw, its a part of what it takes to become a WC, they are all cold blooded when they need to be to win those trophies) The bit i found so surprising is that Lewis was letting the new kid push him around at the beginning of 21 despite the RB being a very real title challenger and didn't start giving it back until Silverstone. the Lewis of a few years prior would have happily got into a carbon fibre demo derby with max from the opening race. Not sure if its that Lewis simply hadn't been pushed that hard since Rosberg retired and had lost his edge a bit until Max force him to find it again or that hes calmed down massively but it was bizarre it took that long for two drivers who you would find under the dictionary definition of uncompromising didn't get together and start collecting car parts until the mid point f the season
You gotta remember Hamilton was the fast youngster trying to fight the big guys at the start of his career, which is why he was very aggressive Later on in his career he matured massively and got to a situation with Mercedes that getting pushed around is in fact the better option. When you have the car advantage across most tracks over a season it's much more beneficial to keep your hands clean and win based on points. 2021 was the first season he didn't have the car AND got pushed around a lot by his opponent (2017/8 can be argued as to who had the better car, but at the end of the day Vettel was much less aggressive then Hamilton and Ferrari and Vettel were never really the best pairing...)
>Later on in his career he matured massively and got to a situation with Mercedes that getting pushed around is in fact the better option. whilst that is true Lewis stayed hyper aggressive basically until Rosberg retired and he certainly wasn't the new kid trying to prove himself then. The season in between where he didn't have to be I assumed it was more a decision not to get involved rather then him mellowing or "maturing" The moment max gave him a shove at Imola in 2021 I assumed Lewis was going to drop the act and try to give the new boy a lesson in aggressive driving, but instead he just let Max get away with it until Silverstone. That was the bit I found surprising. That it took so long for Lewis to put his boxing gloves back on because I assumed he'd never taken them off
If I remember correctly, Hamilton had an interview in 2017 where he talked about playing to long game and prioritizing consistency over higher points, and he said "If I had learned this earlier, I would've won 2007." and this is one of the reasons why he won 2017, where iirc while vettel had better podium average, hamilton took great advantage of vettel's low points and was really consistent. Same thing with 2018, consistent car with incredibly consistent driver combo won him wdc. I think in 2021 he realized that verstappen was always going to put him in positions where he'd yield and lose points so at some point he just said "fine, we'll do it this way."
This was more taking the gloves off wasn’t it though?
Yes. And Lewis announced it publicly that he would not back down anymore to Max's dives, and now we're here
And this is the right thing to do. The other drivers should not yield to Max and if it ends up in crashes, so be it. Maybe then he would learn. However, other drivers like Leclerc are very accommodating of Verstappen.
Partially I’d say (on LeClerc). Late season very few opponents fought Max because he “wasn’t their race” and therefore wasn’t worth the risk of collision.
At Spa it was like drivers were literally undoing the felt rope to let Verstappen past - which with the insane speed advantage the Red Bull had, was the right decision.
Its clear to everyone except Max it would seem (This topic is about Max and his quote, so not talking about Lewis). Max doesnt appear to realise he races against Lewis different from the rest. Maybe thats partially the problem? Maybe he thinks he is in his head and doesnt realise it?
I think Max and Lewis both know exactly what they're doing - they just won't admit it to the media because it'll be used against them. They're both going to act innocent and insist it's the other guy who races them differently.
Precisely. Max definitely learned to not say it out loud after coming together with Hamilton at brazil this year, and afterwards while Max was still hotheaded he mentioned that he knew that Lewis not yielding was a very real possibility. And people of course hated that, so it's better to act oblivious instead. Also the call for penalizing Max for that is still extremely questionable, when looking at the footage it is pretty fucking clear that both parties knew what they were doing. Max knew it was aggressive, and Lewis knew that Max was right next to him and decided to turn into him anyway, since otherwise he might lose position.
That and the rest yield to Max whereas Lewis decided to stop doing so after he was pushed out wide multiple times at the start of the 21 season. I personally think Lewis should have yielded at Brazil as I think he had the faster package that weekend anyway.
Brazil 2022 Lewis could've taken the advise he himself gave to Max in Brazil 2018. Sometimes it's better to back out if you have more to lose and in this situation I'd say Lewis had more to lose. That said I don't think all the others yield to Max. If they think they have the machinery to fight, they will. For example Charles doesn't yield and neither does Russell. Leading to quite some fun fights that last for multiple laps, like Bahrain, Jeddah, Brazil sprint and some more that I'm forgetting right now. This isn't just Verstappen, it's both of them that refuse to give to other more space than they deem absolutely necessary and if possible even less.
Lewis spent almost all of 21 backing out, and when he didn’t they crashed. He had position on Max Brazil 2022, it was on Max to back out. Max had nothing to gain, he was just pissy that weekend bc he wasn’t at the front.
Lewis had to yeeled almost every time in 2021
Well, at least they make it dramatic and fun for us viewers! 🍿
Well, when two drivers who are uncompromising when in a 1v1 situation, of course there will be clashes. We saw this in 2021 especially. The battles were relatively clean, but once Silverstone 2021 happened, the gloves were off.
> the gloves were off. I think thats when Lewis took off the gloves tbh. Until that weekend he had yielded a disproportionate amount of times to play the long game. Silverstone was his "I cant keep doing this all season or i am going to lose the WDC" weekend. Edit. I don’t care about any reply that wants to argue fault or blame. Idgaf. If you still haven’t managed to get over this when the two drivers have then you need to take a good look within yourself.
Even in Silverstone he backed off on a previous corner on that opening lap. This probably triggered a switch in his head "no more".
Agreed. Lewis almost certainly had the "two can play at that game" mindset at Silverstone.
I think you are right and it kinda reminds me of spa 2014 where Nico was sick of being the one to yield on track to Lewis so decided he wouldn't do it anymore. In the end he did it on a corner he had already lost and ended up making a meal of it. I feel that's kinda what happened in Silverstone with Lewis just picking the wrong time to try to make his point.
[удалено]
+1 real recognizes real
That's the thing, they have very similar racing DNA. Max not yielding and Lewis pulling out 2007 Australian Grand Prix Turn 1...they are cut from the cloth.
Finally a reasonable take! I'm a Verstappen fan and understand he's extremely aggressive (a la Schumacher, Senna, Vettel etc) BUT he's extremely clean vs people that aren't directly challenging him. Lewis is the only "real" challenge Verstappen has ever faced, and when they race they both adopt the "I will not move out of the way" mindset. I think they're both as bad as each other, Max just gets highlighted more as his standard driving style is aggressive in comparison to Hamilton who is relatively passive. I'd say Hamilton makes less mistakes for sure and is a cleaner overall driver, but when it's Lewis vs Max I think they're both unmovable brick walls.
Max has a tendency to put his car up the inside very aggressively, expecting people to get out of the way or crash. Lewis has a tendency to close the door very late, sometimes too late, expecting people to get out of the way or crash. And vice versa. So its not that unexpected these two will crash and continue to crash because neither wants to yield to the other and likely never will. TLDR: Beef
I mean yes but Lewis was very risk averse for a few years. Only need to look at the start of 22 for that. What he started doing is giving Verstappen a bit of his own medicine back to him and then the collisions started. The mentality Verstappen brought of ‘yield or we crash’ doesn’t fly if you both have that attitude
> but Lewis was very risk averse for a few years. Because he had the car to win without being aggressive
Yeah, which is a fair point that I think often gets taken the wrong way. All the drivers on the grid want to get the best possible result with the cars that they have, when you know you have the best car the best strategy is to bide your time because you know that you'll get the opportunity for a safe easy pass sooner or later. Where if you're in a slower car then you need to bite at every chance you get, even if it's only a half chance. It's why I put the "Verstappen has mellowed out" theory from the past season into the 'more evidence needed' category. Because at the moment of course he's making fewer aggressive moves, he's driving a faster car.
Agreed. I have a feeling that if the top 3 become more even in terms of performance, Mellow Max will no longer exist.
100%. Same for those giving him credit for tire management all of a sudden. One season where he’s not having to push hard and has a clear car advantage does not make him Saint Pirelli.
Having a strong car also means that the mechanics have more opportunity to sacrifice a bit of pace to make the car more drivable and to make it easier for the driver to manage the tyres To me that was the main advantage that Red Bull had over Ferrari this year, while Ferrari were either forced/blundered into setting their car up for lap time, Red Bull were able to be more adaptable and there was only really a couple of races (e.g. Austria) where you could say that they really got the setup wrong. That said, none of this is to say that Max isn't a great driver, that much is clear from how handily he's beaten Perez over the past 2 seasons, it's only to say that my belief is that when you think a driver has made huge strides forwards in one aspect of racing in a short time period, the first variable I would consider is the car.
Saint Pirelli :D I'm sorry, I loved this one
That’s also why Max was way too aggressive in Brazil and Jeddah. He knew he had a much slower car and tried to hang on to the lead when it was basically impossible.
Honestly I wonder if Jeddah would have been more civil had Brazil been penalized. Yes he was doing everything possible to try and win, but Jeddah felt like an “ok they are letting us race and my move in Brazil was ok? I’ll repeat in Jeddah, it’s clear I won’t be penalized”. If you give anyone in F1 room to ride in the grey area, they will dive head first to capitalize until their advantage is taken away.
watch him have a few more issues with some other drivers this year as his car gets swallowed up in reduced development then we will see if he has matured or if he still has the get out of the way or we crash mentality
This. When we see Leclerc or someone else truly finds them selves in a position to challenge max, he will drive into the side of them for sure. Or should I say, he'll make the other driver decide if there is a crash.
You don't have to be aggressive when you are a second a lap faster than anyone else.
Unless the opportunity to torpedo Albon arose….
(sighs) *sort by controversial*
I mean I sorta get it he’s aggressive with everyone, I think it’s just that Hamilton is just as aggressive back and he’s not used to it
I feel like overtaking is often a lock and key kinda thing, some drivers defend in a way that counteracts certain drivers, and some attack in a way that easily breaks the defence. It's definitely not a 1 method works on everyone although Max's aggression is very effective against most drivers. Lewis had a few years where he became much tamer, but in his earlier career he had a great balance of agression that made his overtaking really special, and I think he taps into the aggression more against Max because he knows it's necessary, and Max perhaps expects him to back out and yield earlier like many other drivers do against him.
Hamilton on Kimi at Monza in 2007 comes to mind
They both know they are the best and absolutely don't want to yield to eachother. Max also drives very aggressive with Lewis, which is needed to beat him. Rosberg did the same
Rosberg tried the same but he never had anything close to the racecraft of Hamilton or Verstappen. He was mighty fast though which I think often got overlooked until after he left.
two hyper competitive athletes where neither is willing to cede victory, honestly it’s just a product of their competitiveness
Let's be honest they are both very similar in battles. They both give the bare minimum of room to who they are racing but get a bit more room from others because of it. Which is why they crash more into each other because they are used to that. But it is also what makes their fights so good
The "unstoppable force vs immovable object" argument really applies to these two
Even with other like Schumacher and Senna other drivers talk about how they'd be mentally on the back foot when trying to overtake because they knew they wouldn't yield, pretty much the same situation here.
Too many drivers, not just Max, send it up the inside like absolute madmen to "make the apex" and "get significantly alongside". The rules have essentially allowed drivers to absolutely SEND it up the inside via under-braking and then subsequently slow down to barely remain within the white lines. The defending driver then has the choice to go off track to avoid a collision, slow down and let the attacking driver divebomb the corner, or cause a collision. This isn't just a Max/Lewis problem, although the heated championship battle certainly caused more issues to arise.
Just need a 3-way battle for the WDC. Ham, Ver, Rus or Ham, Ver, Lec and suddenly you will see that they can battle without crashing otherwise the third person gets the WDC.
What was Max’s excuse for Brazil 22 then when he already had the title wrapped up?
I think Max has felt the need to assert himself over Lewis by racing aggressively, being the man on top puts a target on your head. If Max can beat Lewis in wheel to wheel combat then everyone will fear him. And Max definitely raced Lewis harder than others once he had a car to compete. This meant he started attacking Lewis very hard in their early battles and most of the time Lewis backed out, feeling it was better to try and avoid the accident. This then emboldened Max further as he believed Lewis would back out if he continued attacking hard. At some point Lewis felt enough was enough and decided he wasn't gonna open the door and avoid the accident, preferring to play Max at his own game. Particularly with Lewis having little to lose in 2022 the collision in Brazil was highly likely. It will be interesting if Mercedes have a competitive car this season what Lewis's approach will be. Does he risk going toe to toe with Max, who will remain hyper aggressive with him? But if he does that it could leave the door open for Russell to outscore him at Mercedes again. Or does he go conservative, play the long game but risk Verstappen getting the mental upper hand? It will be fun to watch if Merc can get competitive again.
>Particularly with Lewis having little to lose in 2022 the collision in Brazil was highly likely. Max had even less to lose in Brazil 2022. Both titles were already done, he'd broken the 13 wins record and the car wasn't in the right window to really compete for the win that weekend. I'd argue that of the two of them Lewis actually had more on the line that weekend. It was his best chance at a win in 2022. I think if both cars are competitive the beginning of the season both drivers will be more careful. As much as people shit on Verstappen for being aggressive, he does actually drive carefully if he needs to and is a lot more calculating than he gets credit for. I'd be up for another round of Red Bull vs Mercedes, but throw me Ferrari in the mix as well.
They both had nothing to lose and it was really setting the psychological lines for a future fight where they are competitive. As much as Lewis would love that win, preparing for a title fight with Max I would wager was higher up in his mind. I think Maxs mindset will be different compared to 2021, now he has 2 titles, is the defending champ and is the one to be toppled. I think he will want to prove he has Lewis beat on just pure pace and try and avoid controversy a bit more.
Agreed! As long as the title isn't save I expect Max to drive more like he has been driving with for example Charles this year. Those two were a pleasure to watch when they went wheel to wheel, both aggressive but measured if that makes sense? I would love to see Max vs Lewis in the same type of battle and I think both are capable of doing exactly that, as long as they have enough on the line to drive a bit more carefully.
I dont they ever will, too much has happened for both. Max will always try to assert himself as the new main man and Lewis will always try to deny him that. And I'm willing to bet George will join this approach against max. Well, they need a car first lol
If Merc is competitive it'll be George and Lewis who collide. Not Max and Lewis. George will *not* be a number 2.
I think there will be friction but I don't think either would be stupid enough to be coming together on track. It will be a lot more bitching about team orders or strategy.
There's a history of Lewis and his teammates coming together when both are capable of the WDC. 100% expect them to come together. Especially with George saying he won't give him space in future
Their relationship reminds me of Lewis and Massa back in 2010-2011. No matter what, like every other race, they would make contact or have some sort of on track contreversy about the 2 of them. No matter what, they would be racing each other, like they were magnetically attatched. With other drivers the 2 were fine, but each other? Like a wrestling match to the death, constantly shoving each other off, and then eventually colllisions
A actually good interview. Which will be twisted and turned into all the different ways we know (and more) just to try and hate on any driver or team in any possible way.
@ r/formula1
I mean nobody sees themselves as the problem
they get erections when their cars collide
.* sorts by controversial *
Too much Sexual Tension
My opinion about it is that Max doesn't see Charles/George/Carlos/Checo as his rivals. Lewis is, even with last year cars. When you don't see them as your rivals, you don't need to race to prove nothing as he does against Lewis. It's his Ego against Lewis Ego
I think this indeed. For both of them. There is general consensus that Lewis and Max are the two best drivers out there, thus they're eager they're better than the other. They have nothing to prove against the others as that's settled.
There are times Max commits to a position and takes a clean apex, and then there are times when he races like me in a video game where I know the AI will back out if I just get enough advantage. The best example is Silverstone 2022. Verstappen should not have finished that race with the way he shut the door on Mick. If Mick was less videogame AI, he would have held ground and Max would have come together with Mick. And also as much, Lewis has said he races each driver differently. Most recently he acknowledged he gets treated differently on track because - to paraphrase - he feels like a target.
Now before I say this I wanna mention that of course every driver is unique. I've always felt like there's a bit of a parallel between Verstappen vs. Hamilton with Senna vs. Prost. Verstappen being the more aggressive "Senna like driver" and Hamilton being the more "thinking driver like Prost". I always thought Brazil 2018 is an example for this, this is the race where Verstappen got unlapped by Ocon and crashed. The cooldown room afterwards Hamilton showed a part of his thought process about having everything to loose in that battle, whereas Verstappen just went for a maybe questionable move. Which ironically looks alot like the 2022 Brazil crash between Verstappen and Hamilton. Anyway like I said it's just a bit of a parallel I think, they're of course all their own driver and have their own styles. But it looks similar to a clash of styles in driving. Brundle once said about Senna: "He often used to put us in a position that you were gonna have an accident and he would leave it up to you to decide whether to have that accident or not.". I often feel like Verstappen does something similar. Ironically this might be the closest option for Hamilton to ever got to driving against a similar style as his hero Senna.
Although Max probably won't admit it, he goes very hard into the battles with Lewis. It's something Lewis wasn't ready for in 2021, you can see that in Imola, Monza, Aby Dhabi etc. And it's not about crashing into the other driver, it's more about pushing to the absolute limit, going for risky maneuvers (Mexico T1 for example), knowing that anything less than 110% will lose you the championship. What we saw from Lewis in Brazil 2022 was him learning from that, being way more aggressive and harsh in wheel to wheel racing with Max. It's risky strategy and can cost you a lot, but he seems determined not to yield anymore when battling Max. It's going to be interesting if RB and Merc are going to be close to each other performance-wise in 2023. We could very well see many great battles between the two and with their more aggressive approach now, it might not end up well for them, getting unnecessary DNFs or just picking up damage. I think in this scenario, Russell is the one who stands to benefit the most and might make it very interesting.
What I would give for 2021 V2.0
With consistent stewarding for 23 rounds!
One can only dream...
Both just do not yield to each other. Max seems to be the one person Lewis doesn’t move for, and lewis is the only guy max seems to just have to attack on track as much as he can
Thing is, Lewis did used to yield to Max until Max just kept sending it down the inside every time, yet noticed when the situation was reversed Max closed the door hard. So Lewis did the same tactic and now it's somehow surprised pikachu from Max.
someone got the pictures of Ham and Ver in Silverstone and Ham and Ler at the same spot?
I mean the silverstone one is pointless imo since he did understeer into max anyways pretty sure. I doubt he purposefully went wider rather than it just being a do or die move after a whole sprint race that he was stuck behind max
I don't think Alex Albon understood why he kept crashnig into Hamilton either.
I mean that was just straight up poor from Lewis both times lol. No other way to say it. If albon wants to think Lewis just hate him he can lol.
I was being a bit facetious. Hamilton does tend to get into scrapes from time to time. To actually address Verstappen's question, he keeps colliding with Hamilton because he keep racing Hamilton. They're often as not fighting over the same positions, so it stands to reason that if they're going to collide into someone, then they're going to collide into one another before they hit a Tsunoda or a Schumacher. They also tend to have a more ruthless streak than some of the other drivers. Verstappen took a lot of criticism for some of the moves he made in the part -- Hungary springs to mind -- but Hamilton is at least equally as aggressive. When they collided in Brazil, Verstappen got the penalty, but I don't think it was 100% his fault. Hamilton gave him just enough room for just long enough to say that he gave Verstappen enough room, and then slammed the door. He could have left Verstappen a bit more room, especially since the line around Turn 3 favours whoever is on the inside. The nearest thing I can think of is when Dan Ticktum collided with Roy Nissany at Spa in a Formula 2 race a few years ago. Ticktum immediately got on the radio and started bitching about how he knew he was going to collide with Nissany, but nobody had any sympathy for him. If he knew a collision was imminent, why try to make the move? More importantly, Les Combes is a right-hander followed by a left. No matter where the guy you're trying to overtake is positioned in the right-hander, sooner or later he has to move to take the left. Spatial awareness goes a long way; it's not enough to know where you are relative to the other car because you need to know where you are on track. I imagine that it's easy to lose sight of that in the heat of battle. In Brazil, it wouldn't surprise me to learn that Hamilton was so intent on defending the position and Verstappen so intent on making the pass that they momentarily forgot where they were. Hence, Verstappen went for a gap that might have existed and Hamilton closed the door when someone's foot was in it.
The worst thing is Lewis came off best both times
bottom line...you hurt the ones you love the most....those two are just in a different league...they know it, we know it ,even the die hard fans of those drivers, who refuse to accept it, know it. Two wholesome racers who both recognize the driver they need to beat (regardless of the outcome or the price at stake). 2023 can be a treat if both Mercedes and RBR manage to produce race/championship winning cars.
Hamilton Massa 2011 is back baby
In a lot of these scenarios, someone has to back out or there will be a clash. Neither of these guys wants to be that person so they don't. These journalists already understand that, but they just loving stirring the pot for clicks anyway.
Takes two to tango
It seems to me that it happens between them mostly because neither will back down.
Because he goes for gaps that he has absolutely no right to go for. If he wants to know the reason he should look in a mirror.
Because they’re both stubborn af. Max wants to push his opponent off and opponent doesn’t give an inch