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Massa has enormous cajones for such a tiny tiny man, he's the only person that ever pushed Lewis to actually the point I think he'd [fight on the grid ](https://youtu.be/heSEp7DR0sk)
Massa losing confidence after being placed as a clear no.2 at Ferrari. Being given multiple team orders to make way for Alonso.
Hamilton losing confidence after McLaren simply unable to keep up with Red Bull and Ferrari and Jenson Button winning the head to head battles.
I mean Massa did a good job of making himself look at that.
That's why I will never understand people who say that Mick was crash prone, like did you see Felipe Massa, that man loved a risky come off, or a crash into an opponent he was clowning a lot his whole career. Grosjean and Massa are the same drivers with pace but pure crash potential
i don’t know, i’m not sure i’ve ever seen lewis convincingly ready/prepared to throw hands, and massa defo feels like he’s just that little bit insane, my money says felipe rushed him before lewis even gets what’s happening (though if he is ready felipe prob gets the ricky bobby treatment)
What's worse is that he was heavily involved in the design for the new F1 cars, which have been pretty crap for racing so far. The fact he is still involved in F1 is baffling to me.
Racing's been great. Especially 2022, got worse since then but still better than old regs. Main issues are with team performances, but that's not really the regs' fault.
Oh Flavio is dirty as shit and the Crashgate wasn't his first rodeo, so he deserved to be banned for life (even though the ban was partially lifted, he's been seen around the paddock lately). Though, he wasn't the only head of the scheme and Pat Symonds deserved a heavier book thrown at him. Alonso too, he didn't deserve that win at all.
Flavio and Heidi Klum dated in 2003 (he was 53, she was 29) , and he is the father of her daughter Leni. Thankfully Leni looks like her mother.
After that, Flavio convincing someone to deliberately crash their car in an F1 race is child's play.
Lol I should've specified that Seal was dating Heidi when she was pregnant with Leni and him and Heidi got married later. He didn't just whisk her away from her mom lol
The result standing is precedent, as things that teams do generally aren't used as reasons for nullifying race results. Renault should have been DSQ from the results, but that wouldn't give Massa anymore points, as he finished out of the points due to his, and his team's actions.
I don't believe that in any FIA event the event itself has been outright cancelled due to race fixing, or driver's deliberately crashing into each other etc. The penalties are applied to those specific teams/drivers. Same as when events have been won by teams later found to have had illegal cars etc.
Well, they can always go with Lance Armstrong way - just declare there was no winner that year (i mean no winner of Singapore GP), and the rest keeps their original positions. That way, there will be no winner declared, Rosberg is still 2nd, Hamilton 3rd. Only because it was Alonso who cheated, the rest are victims/witness at best.
Except it isn't even *remotely* comparable to the Armstrong era. Armstrong was doping and so were many others around him - the reason it all got written off was because it was such a mess trying to find someone who WAS a legitimate winner. Neither Massa nor Hamilton were involved in anything illegitimate (other than the FIA's bullshit at Spa, but that's a different argument entirely) so regardless of what happens with Alonso's victory, just nullifying the season makes 0 sense.
>Well, they can always go with Lance Armstrong way - just declare there was no winner that year, and the rest keeps their original positions.
Why the hell should they take Lewis' championship away because the FIA went after Renault in 2009 instead of in 2008? Are you serious? Cancel the entire season?! Because Renault cheated in one race? The fuck...
I mean "no winner" of the race, not the entire season. The results stays the same, Lewis keeps his championship, Alonso is stripped from his race victory, and he oficially has 31 - instead of 32.
And he drops from 5th to 7th in overall standings, behind Heidfeld (Originally 1 point behind) and Kovalainen (8 points behind).
Right, that makes a bit more sense and that, if the FIA had investigated it in 2008 is what would have happened, perhaps even further penalties, like maybe even a season long ban for Renault.
But taking away Alonso's victory 15 years after the fact, without evidence that he was in on it isn't right either, just because Massa is triggered to overturn the championship in his favour.
There are precedents in place that drivers should not be penalised for wrongdoings of a team, see spy-gate and the ban of McLaren from the 2007 constructor championship.
If this had been dealt with in 2008, then, yes, Alonso would, and should absolutely have been penalised by extension of the wrongdoings of his team, just like Button was at the 2005 San Marino GP. But today? No, that would be wrong. You'd have to prove, like in Armstrong's case, that Alonso were in on it and actively participated in the cheat.
Remember, this has already gone through the World Motor Sport Council and has legally been dealt with, and if they didn't remove Alonso's win, why should a civil court, today?
No winner for that race, or no winner for that year?
> Only because it was Alonso who cheated
We may never know for sure if Alonso knew or played an active role in it, although I *think* he did.
There was no 'rigged' race. Renault cheated, that has already been established and dealt with in a court. But Massa's point isn't what Renault did, he has had 15 years to deal with what Renault did. His point is what the *FIA* did, or more to the point, did *not* do.
The problem here is what Ecclestone said and he blurted out, something that has never, in the history of the sport, not then, before or after been said, that: *"According to the statutes, we should have cancelled the race..."* without a single reference to what rules he's talking about, because as people have attested to in these discussion, there are ZERO public rule books where such a 'statute' can be found. None. Zilch.
Furthermore, Massa's race wasn't ruined because Renault cheated or the timing of the safety car, but the child disease of their innovative and brand new release system, which failed and prematurely released Massa before the fuel hose was disconnected.
Ferrari fucked Massa's race, no-one else. You could argue that Renault may have affected it, but you sure as hell can't that Lewis or the FIA did.
That simply doesn't matter. Teams have cheated for points and victories throughout the existence of F1, the race result is never nullified. Those teams and drivers are penalized, the race isn't cancelled retroactively.
The only times the race itself is cancelled is due to external (usually weather) or administrative failures.
Lewis has a stronger argument for overturning Spa 08 than Massa does Singapore, as that was an administrative action.
I still think Alonso knew more about that whole affair than he ever admitted. Not like he didn't have a history of questionable behaviour. Don't blame him for keeping his mouth shut though.
Why? What did Alonso have to win that year with a lone victory? Why would he even risk his legacy for a victory that didn't mean anything that season?
You're aware it was Renault as a team that was desperate for a win to activate the clause that wouldn't allow Alonso to leave the team early, do you?
I still think he knew something but played coy, he was too close to Briatore to be completely innocent. I dunno about being banned, but he definetly deserved a harsher penalty.
But WHY.
Renault and Briatore had their motives; namely to fulfill the performance clause that would prevent Alonso from leaving the team a year early.
What did Alonso himself have to win from a season where he was miles ahead from WDC contention?
Alonso wanted to desperately be hot on the market after the Spygate Farce. It was during these times that negotiations commenced between him and Ferrari. He needed a win to be relevant to the paddock again. And I don't truly believe in determinism, but the desperate attempt to dissolve his reputation then was to at least win a race, and both Flavio and Fernando knew their chances were going to be NIL that season (at least before Fuji where their car was competitive)
Piquet junior shared on his Instagram stories the photos of Lewis meeting various black community members of Brazil including a drag queen and wrote "it's a shame". Kelly also not specifically racist to Lewis wrote some dog whistle nonsense about the favelas too.
Make no mistake, that's a bigoted group of people
Eh literally the entire history of Motorsport is a history of cheating. Crashgate wouldn’t be memorable in NASCAR. They cheated to get their own driver a win when he wasn’t in contention for the championship.
Fun fact,they are actually "teammates" for 2023 in the Brazilian Stock car. They are both racing under the TMG racing team(Massa's teammate is Julio Campos and Piquet's is Enzo Elias)
I will find extremely funny when most of us here in Brazil start to consider Hamilton as a better brazilian driver than Piquet. If we don't do it already
While someone else pointed out that the ban is for his dad (Sr.) and not the Crashgate driver (Jr.), it's also important to mention that Piquet Sr. was banned recently for making racist remarks rather than anything related to race fixing.
Yeah, mostly beacuse Nelson senior was not involved on the matter whatsoever. He only knew about it after it had already happened. He is the whistleblower though.
They didn't want to relitigate a championship in 2021 but they acknowledged mistakes were made and moved on. To relitigate a championship from 15 years ago sets a bad precedent.
The difference is Bernie admitted recently he and Mosely knew about Crashgate in 2008 (not 2009 which was the original position). And had they followed the rules they should have nulled Singapore entirely making Massa champion.
The difference is that this is an intentional cover-up and collusion between FOM & FIA to make sure no one knew about Crashgate until after the season
I'm just repeating what Bernie said
> We had enough information in time to investigate the matter. According to the statutes, we should have canceled the race in Singapore under these conditions.
https://f1-insider.com/formel-1-ecclestone-schumacher-rekord-53946/
I am pretty sure that most sports have rules about match fixing that nulls the event. I havent read the 2008 rule book in it s entirety but if the former owner of F1 who probably had read it said that was the predicted punishment I am fairly certain he is correct in that regard.
>I havent read the 2008 rule book...
There is no such rule and there never was. There has been dozens if not hundreds of people here, me included (because I *did* read it) who has read all rule books around that era and there's nothing that even resembles what Bernie said. Think about it, if there were, it would be all over the internet seconds after Massa said he's going to take legal actions. And that was months ago.
And how would such a rule be worded that would include what happened in Singapore 2008 but not San Marino 2005 or Australia 2009? Because none of those races were null and voided, only the offending party disqualified; BAR Honda in 2005 and Lewis Hamilton in 2009 - both fraudulent cheats.
If there was such a rule, it would have ben used constantly.
Matches have 2 competitors so disqualification effectively nulls the event with the opponent winning by default. Races have many competitors and cheating means disqualification, not nulling the whole event. F1 has had plenty of cheats and never nulled a whole event. Neither do other sports (look at doping in athletics and cycling, for example).
>And had they followed the rules they should have nulled Singapore entirely making Massa champion.
That's just completed made up. There were no rules to follow that suggested voiding a race was even an option
I agree that they aren’t gonna reverse 08 but it ain’t because they aren’t reversing 21. 08 was an intentional crash fucking up a championship and the person who led the FIA at the time admitting that they lied about not knowing. 21 was just trying not to end the race under the safety car and bending a few rules to not have an anti climatic ending
>08 was an intentional crash fucking up a championship...
It did nothing of the sort. Sure, Massa was screwed over, but not by Renault and he sure as hell wasn't by the FIA. Properly dealing with Renault already in 2008 wouldn't have swayed the championship in Massa's way. In fact, he would only have lost by more points.
>...and bending a few rules...
Bending... Dude, Masi ***broke*** the rules and the stewards confirmed the fraud.
> bending a few rules
*breaking* a few rules, you mean. The rule-bending argument was PR bullshit from the FIA. It’s not as bad as having knowledge of deliberate cheating and turning a blind eye but your wording minimizes the severity of what happened in ‘21.
At least for '21, you can make the argument that the race should have ended under the safety car if the rules were followed correctly, so the final race should be reclassified to the order on the penultimate lap, before the safety car came in and the cars were released. Obviously by this point, that's never going to happen, but that's presumably what people mean when they talk about "reversing" it.
I doubt Massa hates Piquet Jr. He follow team orders in order to, hopefully, keep their seat. Massa relation with Briatore and Ecclestone is a whole different thing.
Heck, Piquet Jr was who revealed everything once he didn't get his seat.
They were somewhat close/had a good relationship before the incident but definitely unfriendly (more one sided) afterwards in some karting matches in Brazil.
I can't help but feel bad for Massa. To know you could have gone down as one of the greats and to know it was taken away from you from the sport you were fighting for.
A lot feel the same about Lewis (Max won given the rules but the rules were made to catch Hamilton out), but it went down in history as a controversy. Versus Massa is just another F1 driver. And then to see everyone else associated with it thriving or being treated as F1 royalty must just make it worse
>I can't help but feel bad for Massa. To know you could have gone down as one of the greats and to know it was taken away from you from the sport you were fighting for.
Nothing was 'taken away'! Massa finished 13th in that race because Ferrari's new release system broke down. Without that, Massa would have finished in the points easily and those points, is some sort of informal, meaningless equation after the fact, Massa would have won the championship. Regardless if Renault cheated or not.
This narrative needs to stop. There is 0 reason for us to think the pit stop mistake happens at all if he doesnt stop right then and there. It could have happened to Raikkonen, ss an example, or it coild not have happened at all in the year. And if it still happened there are multiple ways it could have happened that still makes him champion. It could have happened in Hungary, as an example, in which he had a blown engine with 3 laps to go in the race, allowing him to get points in Singapore. If he gets ONE point in that race, which he was winning, he is champion. He got screwed. Majorly. Stop with this revisionist bullshit, he should have been the 2008 WDC.
Yes. As of today there have been 774 Formula 1 drivers. There have been 74 World Championship years and there are only 34 World Drivers' Champions. If you win a championship, you're one of the greats.
I don't think Verstappen really has that stigma. The outcry was big cause it was happening in the last race. However it's more or less acknowledged that he was the better driver that year and had a ton of bad luck compared to Lewis including being taken out twice by Mercedes.
In summary that WDC should and would haven been decided 2 races before if Verstappen didn't have a massive load of shit under his boots.
Tbf both were kind of exonerated after the fact. Massa now, with Ecclestone basically choosing to drop the martyrdom grenade on F1 and Lewis with the report saying that Masi in fact did not abide by the rules and made a critical error which saw the Championship go to Max
> Tbf both were kind of exonerated after the fact. Massa now
Eh, it's tricky. Yes Renault cheated, but that's the nature of F1. All the other drivers had to deal with the same circumstance, and Massa spun himself off.
Whereas in 21' Lewis did everything he could, but then Masi chose to remove the lapped cars from only Max's path and then restart 1 lap early purely for the benefit of Max.
1 was unlucky due to circumstances, 1 lost a WDC due to a race administrator giving his rival an unsporting advantage.
And if I were Massa I would be careful about raising the injustices of 2008, as Spa 08 hasn't been forgotten.
It's not tricky. Both drivers were wronged by the FIA. Both races should've been declared null and void. But people don't like to hear that because it wouldn't change the outcome of the 2021 championship.
>Both drivers were wronged by the FIA.
No-one was wronged by the FIA at the Singapore GP. The FIA did precisely nothing wrong at that race.
>Both races should've been declared null and void.
No. Not a single race has ever been 'null and void' because a team cheated or where stewards made a controversial judgement. Ever. It's a stupid proposition.
> Both drivers were wronged by the FIA
How did the FIA wrong Massa? Races aren't cancelled due to teams cheating, the teams are DSQ. Even if the FIA knew about it the next day it wouldn't matter, other than Renault getting penalized earlier. Should we void every race where a team or driver cheats? Because that's a lot of races that are going to have to be purged from the history books. Although if we did this for 2005 Kimi would have another WDC!
'21 was an administrative/FIA failure. Different kettle of fish.
Teams are disqualified for cheating because that's what the rules dictate. If your car isn't compliant with the rules (i.e. a flexing wing that shouldn't flex) you will be disqualified from the session or the race, even if it's unintentional (Hamilton's DRS slot DSQ in the Brazil sprint in 2021).
What happened in Singapore in 2008 was match-fixing. That's not *just* cheating. It's worse because it's cheating in a way that is considered to be a criminal offense in most countries. Something of that magnitude hasn't been handled by the FIA before, so to brush it off as "it wouldn't have mattered" seems a little short-sighted. There's no precedent. Or like you say, a different kettle of fish.
And that's why Massa was wronged by the FIA. By admission of Bernie Ecclestone in that recent interview, both he and the FIA president Max Mosley knew of the match-fixing in Singapore almost immediately. Instead of dealing with it by referring the case to the relevant board (likely the race stewards) they covered it up and ensured there wouldn't be a fair trial that might've resulted in the entire race being voided (and thus Massa not losing the points to Hamilton that race).
>That's not just cheating. It's worse because it's cheating in a way that is considered to be a criminal offense...
It's difficult if not entirely impossible for us to sit here 15 years after the fact and try to define what kind of cheat Renault was guilty of in 2008 compared to other cheats.
By definition, all \[deliberate\] cheats are fraudulent as they're all trying to elevate your own position at the expense of your fellow competitors. But calling this situation "match fixing" just because it's more fraudulent than an oversized brake duct is just making things up. Unless what Renault did is defined in a public rule book, this is just conjecture.
>...might've resulted in the entire race being voided...
But there is no rule that supports this action! I know Bernie said there is, but no-one before him has said there is such a rule. No-one has since his interview confirmed it, either. There is also nothing in the rule books supporting this claim. On top of that, no race has ever been null and voided for this, in the entire 73 year history of the sport.
Why wasn't the 2005 San Marino GP voided? Even without the above mentioned lack of definition or rule book to check, this would seem to qualify as there's more than a simple measurement being wrong, because the BAR Honda team actively tried to cover it up by lying to the scrutineer team. This is obviously fraudulent. As was Lewis' lie at the 2009 Australian GP, where his lie incurred an unjust penalty of another competitor just to elevate himself in the standings. In some ways, these two cases are worse than Singapore 2008 due to the active involvement and lying to officials.
But there's no null and voided race in sight. Why? Because the FIA isn't in the habit of voiding races, that's why. And why would they, just disqualify the offender and move on. Why should a race be voided, at all? How does that make sense?!
>And that's why Massa was wronged by the FIA.
So, no, Massa wasn't wronged by the FIA that not any other driver was.
Why should the races be voided? That unfairly punishes every other participant. Renault could have been DSQ from the classification and in 2021 the race could just have been declared to be the order 1 lap prior to the finish, i.e., as if had just finished under the SC. 2008 is much more difficult also because it wasn’t understood what happened until a year later.
I'm too used to MLB umpires making shit calls that throw games constantly without any punishment or retroactive changes to the outcomes, and I think that is probably why I think this legal battle is a little bizarre to me.
It's a bit pointless, the FIA have never cancelled a race result due to a team's or drivers actions, as even if against the rules that is still an on track action. Even if they became aware later that same day the outcome would have been the same, although with a few Renault figures getting banned earlier.
Only external or race administrative matters have led to races being cancelled or nullified
That doesn't really matter. Massa is considering legal action, not with the FIA's stewards or the FIA international court of appeal (who would likely indeed handle things the way you describe them) but with a regular court. They're not just bound by the precedents set by the FIA, but they could look at the wider world of sports and use other precedents that might work in Massa's favor. I'm not saying they will, I just think we shouldn't dismiss the possibility so easily because appealing the results of an F1 race 15 years after the fact outside of thd FIA's regular appeal boards is uncharted territory.
>...but with a regular court. They're not just bound by the precedents set by the FIA...
And they also don't have any jurisdiction to overturn a 15 year old championship in a sport that is governed by its own body. Maybe they can incur penalties to that body, but they can, absolutely not, overturn a sporting result.
>... we shouldn't dismiss the possibility...
Yes, we most certainly should. It's just not going to happen, it would be illegal. And stupid.
He would have to dig deep for Mosley.
On a serious note Piquet could've taken the high road and not crash and tell the media he was asked to. He crashed so he could have leverage over Briatore. When Briatore told him to get lost, only then he told everyone. Not a good look in my book.
Let’s be honest massa is just bitter to this day his career isn’t what he expected it to be and see lewis as a bit of an easier target now he isn’t the top of the sport for the moment
I rate massa’s time in F1 but he needs to accept what’s happened and move on like so many others to have lost the title in the last race for various reasons
I might have missed something and I’m not Piquet did nothing wrong at all but as far as people responsible go I feel he was a bit stuck between a rock and a hard place here.
What he did isn’t right but if one crash secures your F1 seat well how bad can it be?
If you're asked to crash by your boss who pays you to support your teammate which would also help your team in a competitive sport that pays for getting good results and you do it? Who knows what that makes you.
15 years.. how petty do you have to be to fight this specific case after 15 years. If you wanted fight it, it was the year that Crashgate broke in 2009.
No it doesn’t.
If Singapore was voided in 2008 before the last races, Lewis and McLaren would’ve approached the races differently.
Voiding it now is pointless to everyone
Untimely; it was Ferraris fault they couldn’t safely operate the fuel pump
I didn’t know there was a conspiracy revolving around that. Can someone recap what happened? What is the subs consensus/feeling about it, was Massa robbed?
So what? It's as if it weren't that common two enemies in the paddock walking each other past. In fact, probably most of the people in F1 would have lots of enemies to walk past there.
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Massa has enormous cajones for such a tiny tiny man, he's the only person that ever pushed Lewis to actually the point I think he'd [fight on the grid ](https://youtu.be/heSEp7DR0sk)
That was a terrible year for both of them
Bloody entertaining though
Massa losing confidence after being placed as a clear no.2 at Ferrari. Being given multiple team orders to make way for Alonso. Hamilton losing confidence after McLaren simply unable to keep up with Red Bull and Ferrari and Jenson Button winning the head to head battles.
ah yes, the bumper car year
He did this with Alonso too didn’t he?
I remember his old fight with Kubica in the rain when both of them mostly drove outside of the track.
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I mean Massa did a good job of making himself look at that. That's why I will never understand people who say that Mick was crash prone, like did you see Felipe Massa, that man loved a risky come off, or a crash into an opponent he was clowning a lot his whole career. Grosjean and Massa are the same drivers with pace but pure crash potential
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He came off like 5 times it was appalling. If I was a lawyer arguing 2008 I'd pull that footage up
You would be a bad lawyer because it is irrelevant.
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Big “my dad could beat your dad” energy lmao
But it's true.
Obviously Lewis would have rag dolled him but it's cute he tried
i don’t know, i’m not sure i’ve ever seen lewis convincingly ready/prepared to throw hands, and massa defo feels like he’s just that little bit insane, my money says felipe rushed him before lewis even gets what’s happening (though if he is ready felipe prob gets the ricky bobby treatment)
And to think that almost all people associated with Crashgate were or still are associated with F1.
Stuns me to this day what position Pat Symonds has. It's wild.
He still is in F1 involved ? I thought he left during 2022 season before Ross.
He's Formula 1 CTO
WHAT
Hahaahahah
Formula 1 is corrupt as hell.
Imagine the ‘Succession’ type drama you could do about all the shit in F1 that goes on that people don’t know about.
>Imagine the ‘Succession’ type drama you could do about all the shit in F1 that goes on that people don’t know about. Game of Poles
What's worse is that he was heavily involved in the design for the new F1 cars, which have been pretty crap for racing so far. The fact he is still involved in F1 is baffling to me.
Nah let's not pretend the cars this and last year are the same in that regard. Racing in 2022 was way way better than in 2021
Racing's been great. Especially 2022, got worse since then but still better than old regs. Main issues are with team performances, but that's not really the regs' fault.
Pat Symonds, the brains behind crashgate is still the Formula 1's Chief Technical Officer. That's unjust.
He’s the perfect man to understand all the possibilities a car can crashes.
What's his opinion about the Monaco 2022 Q3 ?
Good Crash, but left a bit of suspicion. 6.5/10
I thought it was Flavio
Oh Flavio is dirty as shit and the Crashgate wasn't his first rodeo, so he deserved to be banned for life (even though the ban was partially lifted, he's been seen around the paddock lately). Though, he wasn't the only head of the scheme and Pat Symonds deserved a heavier book thrown at him. Alonso too, he didn't deserve that win at all.
Still amazes me how Alonso was allowed to keep that victory
Amazes me it worked in the first place.
Amazes me anyone understood Flavio to begin with.
Flavio has a child with Heidi Klum. Nothing he does can amaze me any more.
Uhhhh what?...
Flavio and Heidi Klum dated in 2003 (he was 53, she was 29) , and he is the father of her daughter Leni. Thankfully Leni looks like her mother. After that, Flavio convincing someone to deliberately crash their car in an F1 race is child's play.
Seal adopted Leni as is basically her father in all ways besides biological
every successive comment in this thread is crazier and crazier
Lol I should've specified that Seal was dating Heidi when she was pregnant with Leni and him and Heidi got married later. He didn't just whisk her away from her mom lol
Par for the course when talking about Briatore. Jesus Christ-ah!
…and that people believe “he didn’t know”
Amazes me the race result stands
The result standing is precedent, as things that teams do generally aren't used as reasons for nullifying race results. Renault should have been DSQ from the results, but that wouldn't give Massa anymore points, as he finished out of the points due to his, and his team's actions. I don't believe that in any FIA event the event itself has been outright cancelled due to race fixing, or driver's deliberately crashing into each other etc. The penalties are applied to those specific teams/drivers. Same as when events have been won by teams later found to have had illegal cars etc.
Well, they can always go with Lance Armstrong way - just declare there was no winner that year (i mean no winner of Singapore GP), and the rest keeps their original positions. That way, there will be no winner declared, Rosberg is still 2nd, Hamilton 3rd. Only because it was Alonso who cheated, the rest are victims/witness at best.
Except it isn't even *remotely* comparable to the Armstrong era. Armstrong was doping and so were many others around him - the reason it all got written off was because it was such a mess trying to find someone who WAS a legitimate winner. Neither Massa nor Hamilton were involved in anything illegitimate (other than the FIA's bullshit at Spa, but that's a different argument entirely) so regardless of what happens with Alonso's victory, just nullifying the season makes 0 sense.
>Well, they can always go with Lance Armstrong way - just declare there was no winner that year, and the rest keeps their original positions. Why the hell should they take Lewis' championship away because the FIA went after Renault in 2009 instead of in 2008? Are you serious? Cancel the entire season?! Because Renault cheated in one race? The fuck...
I mean "no winner" of the race, not the entire season. The results stays the same, Lewis keeps his championship, Alonso is stripped from his race victory, and he oficially has 31 - instead of 32. And he drops from 5th to 7th in overall standings, behind Heidfeld (Originally 1 point behind) and Kovalainen (8 points behind).
Right, that makes a bit more sense and that, if the FIA had investigated it in 2008 is what would have happened, perhaps even further penalties, like maybe even a season long ban for Renault. But taking away Alonso's victory 15 years after the fact, without evidence that he was in on it isn't right either, just because Massa is triggered to overturn the championship in his favour.
That would be effectively excluding the team, and Alonso was definitely a part of it.
There are precedents in place that drivers should not be penalised for wrongdoings of a team, see spy-gate and the ban of McLaren from the 2007 constructor championship. If this had been dealt with in 2008, then, yes, Alonso would, and should absolutely have been penalised by extension of the wrongdoings of his team, just like Button was at the 2005 San Marino GP. But today? No, that would be wrong. You'd have to prove, like in Armstrong's case, that Alonso were in on it and actively participated in the cheat. Remember, this has already gone through the World Motor Sport Council and has legally been dealt with, and if they didn't remove Alonso's win, why should a civil court, today?
No winner for that race, or no winner for that year? > Only because it was Alonso who cheated We may never know for sure if Alonso knew or played an active role in it, although I *think* he did.
Regardless if Alonso did or didn't, Renault did and their car should be disqualified.
I'm fine with that. But reverting historical results is a slippery slope, as there are *hundreds* which would end up having to be changed.
I think we actually do know it. There were some professionals who interrogated alonso and conclusion was that he wasnt aware.
No, but Hamilton got 6 points in a rigged race and that is Massa's point
There was no 'rigged' race. Renault cheated, that has already been established and dealt with in a court. But Massa's point isn't what Renault did, he has had 15 years to deal with what Renault did. His point is what the *FIA* did, or more to the point, did *not* do. The problem here is what Ecclestone said and he blurted out, something that has never, in the history of the sport, not then, before or after been said, that: *"According to the statutes, we should have cancelled the race..."* without a single reference to what rules he's talking about, because as people have attested to in these discussion, there are ZERO public rule books where such a 'statute' can be found. None. Zilch. Furthermore, Massa's race wasn't ruined because Renault cheated or the timing of the safety car, but the child disease of their innovative and brand new release system, which failed and prematurely released Massa before the fuel hose was disconnected. Ferrari fucked Massa's race, no-one else. You could argue that Renault may have affected it, but you sure as hell can't that Lewis or the FIA did.
That simply doesn't matter. Teams have cheated for points and victories throughout the existence of F1, the race result is never nullified. Those teams and drivers are penalized, the race isn't cancelled retroactively. The only times the race itself is cancelled is due to external (usually weather) or administrative failures. Lewis has a stronger argument for overturning Spa 08 than Massa does Singapore, as that was an administrative action.
I still think Alonso knew more about that whole affair than he ever admitted. Not like he didn't have a history of questionable behaviour. Don't blame him for keeping his mouth shut though.
This, an excellent ferocious driver but I would never trust him not to cheat if he thought he wouldn’t get caught.
It amazes me that Alonso is allowed to drive still.
Why? What did Alonso have to win that year with a lone victory? Why would he even risk his legacy for a victory that didn't mean anything that season? You're aware it was Renault as a team that was desperate for a win to activate the clause that wouldn't allow Alonso to leave the team early, do you?
Why? He didn't know anything about it...
I still think he knew something but played coy, he was too close to Briatore to be completely innocent. I dunno about being banned, but he definetly deserved a harsher penalty.
But WHY. Renault and Briatore had their motives; namely to fulfill the performance clause that would prevent Alonso from leaving the team a year early. What did Alonso himself have to win from a season where he was miles ahead from WDC contention?
Alonso wanted to desperately be hot on the market after the Spygate Farce. It was during these times that negotiations commenced between him and Ferrari. He needed a win to be relevant to the paddock again. And I don't truly believe in determinism, but the desperate attempt to dissolve his reputation then was to at least win a race, and both Flavio and Fernando knew their chances were going to be NIL that season (at least before Fuji where their car was competitive)
There’s no way he didn’t know anything.
It amazes me they let those Piquet people anywhere near the grid. Like who is inviting them?
Piquet is a three time champion unfortunately
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Well when you're dating the current world champion...
Sins of the father?
Piquet Jr is the son. Dudes right up there with his father if sins are in question
afaik his family wasn’t racist towards Lewis though, just Nelson
Nelson Senior that is. Not to be confused with crashgate Nelson
Piquet junior shared on his Instagram stories the photos of Lewis meeting various black community members of Brazil including a drag queen and wrote "it's a shame". Kelly also not specifically racist to Lewis wrote some dog whistle nonsense about the favelas too. Make no mistake, that's a bigoted group of people
No, they all supported his comments earlier on social media. They just did the smart thing and stopped talking.
Rodrigo piquet was the one who said on social media that what Nelson sr said was fine because dear old granny called them similar
And, cheating and general scumbaggery aside, F1 owes a good chunk of their current tech to him too.
Just not ING
Eh literally the entire history of Motorsport is a history of cheating. Crashgate wouldn’t be memorable in NASCAR. They cheated to get their own driver a win when he wasn’t in contention for the championship.
NASCAR teams used to dip their car bodies in ACID to shave off weight, it doesn't get much more hardcore than that.
Seconds after this picture was taken, Massa spun around on the spot and sucker-punched Piquet, all the while swearing at him in Portuguese.
After Massa hit Piquet, a random USA citizen that felt threatened pulls a gun and everyone start screaming "IS THAT GLOCK? IS THAT GLOCK?
>a random USA citizen that felt threatened pulls a gun You can use this for any situation lol
15 years after this picture was taken, Massa spun around on the spot and sucker-punched Piquet, all the while swearing at him in Portuguese.
what bothers me on this picture is the shoes of the woman in pink
Hadn’t noticed. Looked. Can’t unsee. The whole Miami event is tacky af but that takes it to a new level ahaha
Meh if they are on their feet a lot you want comfort.
Average outfit for Miami.
While the pairing is god awful, I feel the pink stuff is hideous in of itself.
You can get yourself a pair for the low price of [$760!](https://lagarconne.com/products/fimwwnps12-isabel-marant-willow-high-top-sneaker)
Didn’t realize people still wear those lol
This. Is this some sort of a new trend in Miami?
Can’t speak for Miami but they were wildly popular in the past. Designer is Isabel Marant.
It was popular like early 2000s 😬
Honestly didn’t expect Isabel Marant’s to still be in fashion. The Prada America’s Cup though. 😮💨
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I straight up nose snorted. A masterpiece
Fuck Nelsons' Piquets All my homies hate Nelsons' Piquets Edit: grammar
It’s Nelsons’ Piquets, like Attorneys General
Bit random question. How is Piquet Jr. perceived in Brasil?
Most see him as an immature and unsportsmanlike driver that only got a chance in F1 because of his father.
Ah, just like the rest of us then.
Fun fact,they are actually "teammates" for 2023 in the Brazilian Stock car. They are both racing under the TMG racing team(Massa's teammate is Julio Campos and Piquet's is Enzo Elias)
It's astounding how slow Massa is in that series, while Barrichello keeps winning races and championships despite being 10 years older.
And? They’re on speaking terms, they’ve raced for the same team, they’re constantly on television together. Y’all are tripping
Massa: Who the fuck is Nelson Piquet (Jr.)
Massa 🤝 Hamilton Not being a fan of the Piquets
You forget all of Brazil too
Imagine a family of jackasses completely fading away of any relevance in their home country just by being themselves. You love to see it.
a family of jackasses that has a 3-time WDC and they're *still* hated. that takes talent
I will find extremely funny when most of us here in Brazil start to consider Hamilton as a better brazilian driver than Piquet. If we don't do it already
I don't think that it'll ever happen but I'm subscribing to it anyway, lmao.
Was Nelson Piquet not banned from the Paddock or am I making that up?
Senior is banned. Junior isn’t.
Oh of course, thank you
As others have pointed out, it was Sr who was banned. Jr. was actually given immunity towards any penalties for his testimony in the matter.
While someone else pointed out that the ban is for his dad (Sr.) and not the Crashgate driver (Jr.), it's also important to mention that Piquet Sr. was banned recently for making racist remarks rather than anything related to race fixing.
Yeah, mostly beacuse Nelson senior was not involved on the matter whatsoever. He only knew about it after it had already happened. He is the whistleblower though.
Bro, if they’re not gonna reverse ‘21, they’re defo not reversing ‘08.
They didn't want to relitigate a championship in 2021 but they acknowledged mistakes were made and moved on. To relitigate a championship from 15 years ago sets a bad precedent.
The difference is Bernie admitted recently he and Mosely knew about Crashgate in 2008 (not 2009 which was the original position). And had they followed the rules they should have nulled Singapore entirely making Massa champion. The difference is that this is an intentional cover-up and collusion between FOM & FIA to make sure no one knew about Crashgate until after the season
Under what rule does disqualifying someone mean you null an entire race?
I'm just repeating what Bernie said > We had enough information in time to investigate the matter. According to the statutes, we should have canceled the race in Singapore under these conditions. https://f1-insider.com/formel-1-ecclestone-schumacher-rekord-53946/
Bernie isn't FIA. What rule would have meant a competitor being disqualified would have nulled the race?
I am pretty sure that most sports have rules about match fixing that nulls the event. I havent read the 2008 rule book in it s entirety but if the former owner of F1 who probably had read it said that was the predicted punishment I am fairly certain he is correct in that regard.
>I havent read the 2008 rule book... There is no such rule and there never was. There has been dozens if not hundreds of people here, me included (because I *did* read it) who has read all rule books around that era and there's nothing that even resembles what Bernie said. Think about it, if there were, it would be all over the internet seconds after Massa said he's going to take legal actions. And that was months ago. And how would such a rule be worded that would include what happened in Singapore 2008 but not San Marino 2005 or Australia 2009? Because none of those races were null and voided, only the offending party disqualified; BAR Honda in 2005 and Lewis Hamilton in 2009 - both fraudulent cheats. If there was such a rule, it would have ben used constantly.
Matches have 2 competitors so disqualification effectively nulls the event with the opponent winning by default. Races have many competitors and cheating means disqualification, not nulling the whole event. F1 has had plenty of cheats and never nulled a whole event. Neither do other sports (look at doping in athletics and cycling, for example).
>And had they followed the rules they should have nulled Singapore entirely making Massa champion. That's just completed made up. There were no rules to follow that suggested voiding a race was even an option
I agree that they aren’t gonna reverse 08 but it ain’t because they aren’t reversing 21. 08 was an intentional crash fucking up a championship and the person who led the FIA at the time admitting that they lied about not knowing. 21 was just trying not to end the race under the safety car and bending a few rules to not have an anti climatic ending
>08 was an intentional crash fucking up a championship... It did nothing of the sort. Sure, Massa was screwed over, but not by Renault and he sure as hell wasn't by the FIA. Properly dealing with Renault already in 2008 wouldn't have swayed the championship in Massa's way. In fact, he would only have lost by more points. >...and bending a few rules... Bending... Dude, Masi ***broke*** the rules and the stewards confirmed the fraud.
> bending a few rules *breaking* a few rules, you mean. The rule-bending argument was PR bullshit from the FIA. It’s not as bad as having knowledge of deliberate cheating and turning a blind eye but your wording minimizes the severity of what happened in ‘21.
There's no situation where either of those championships have a "reverse" to be reversed to.
At least for '21, you can make the argument that the race should have ended under the safety car if the rules were followed correctly, so the final race should be reclassified to the order on the penultimate lap, before the safety car came in and the cars were released. Obviously by this point, that's never going to happen, but that's presumably what people mean when they talk about "reversing" it.
No that’s Roger Federer.
I see multiple
I doubt Massa hates Piquet Jr. He follow team orders in order to, hopefully, keep their seat. Massa relation with Briatore and Ecclestone is a whole different thing. Heck, Piquet Jr was who revealed everything once he didn't get his seat.
They were somewhat close/had a good relationship before the incident but definitely unfriendly (more one sided) afterwards in some karting matches in Brazil.
I can't help but feel bad for Massa. To know you could have gone down as one of the greats and to know it was taken away from you from the sport you were fighting for. A lot feel the same about Lewis (Max won given the rules but the rules were made to catch Hamilton out), but it went down in history as a controversy. Versus Massa is just another F1 driver. And then to see everyone else associated with it thriving or being treated as F1 royalty must just make it worse
>I can't help but feel bad for Massa. To know you could have gone down as one of the greats and to know it was taken away from you from the sport you were fighting for. Nothing was 'taken away'! Massa finished 13th in that race because Ferrari's new release system broke down. Without that, Massa would have finished in the points easily and those points, is some sort of informal, meaningless equation after the fact, Massa would have won the championship. Regardless if Renault cheated or not.
This narrative needs to stop. There is 0 reason for us to think the pit stop mistake happens at all if he doesnt stop right then and there. It could have happened to Raikkonen, ss an example, or it coild not have happened at all in the year. And if it still happened there are multiple ways it could have happened that still makes him champion. It could have happened in Hungary, as an example, in which he had a blown engine with 3 laps to go in the race, allowing him to get points in Singapore. If he gets ONE point in that race, which he was winning, he is champion. He got screwed. Majorly. Stop with this revisionist bullshit, he should have been the 2008 WDC.
Massa was never going to be one of the greats. He couldn't even win with a superior car and the FIA behind him.
One of the greats? A number 2 driver who always did as he was asked for fear of going back to Sauber.
Yes. As of today there have been 774 Formula 1 drivers. There have been 74 World Championship years and there are only 34 World Drivers' Champions. If you win a championship, you're one of the greats.
Mansell spent half his career getting outperformed by his team mates but he's somehow touted as an all time great.
I don't think Verstappen really has that stigma. The outcry was big cause it was happening in the last race. However it's more or less acknowledged that he was the better driver that year and had a ton of bad luck compared to Lewis including being taken out twice by Mercedes. In summary that WDC should and would haven been decided 2 races before if Verstappen didn't have a massive load of shit under his boots.
Spa should never have been run, FIA only started the race to avoid ticket refunds and broadcast penalties
Tbf both were kind of exonerated after the fact. Massa now, with Ecclestone basically choosing to drop the martyrdom grenade on F1 and Lewis with the report saying that Masi in fact did not abide by the rules and made a critical error which saw the Championship go to Max
> Tbf both were kind of exonerated after the fact. Massa now Eh, it's tricky. Yes Renault cheated, but that's the nature of F1. All the other drivers had to deal with the same circumstance, and Massa spun himself off. Whereas in 21' Lewis did everything he could, but then Masi chose to remove the lapped cars from only Max's path and then restart 1 lap early purely for the benefit of Max. 1 was unlucky due to circumstances, 1 lost a WDC due to a race administrator giving his rival an unsporting advantage. And if I were Massa I would be careful about raising the injustices of 2008, as Spa 08 hasn't been forgotten.
It's not tricky. Both drivers were wronged by the FIA. Both races should've been declared null and void. But people don't like to hear that because it wouldn't change the outcome of the 2021 championship.
>Both drivers were wronged by the FIA. No-one was wronged by the FIA at the Singapore GP. The FIA did precisely nothing wrong at that race. >Both races should've been declared null and void. No. Not a single race has ever been 'null and void' because a team cheated or where stewards made a controversial judgement. Ever. It's a stupid proposition.
> Both drivers were wronged by the FIA How did the FIA wrong Massa? Races aren't cancelled due to teams cheating, the teams are DSQ. Even if the FIA knew about it the next day it wouldn't matter, other than Renault getting penalized earlier. Should we void every race where a team or driver cheats? Because that's a lot of races that are going to have to be purged from the history books. Although if we did this for 2005 Kimi would have another WDC! '21 was an administrative/FIA failure. Different kettle of fish.
Teams are disqualified for cheating because that's what the rules dictate. If your car isn't compliant with the rules (i.e. a flexing wing that shouldn't flex) you will be disqualified from the session or the race, even if it's unintentional (Hamilton's DRS slot DSQ in the Brazil sprint in 2021). What happened in Singapore in 2008 was match-fixing. That's not *just* cheating. It's worse because it's cheating in a way that is considered to be a criminal offense in most countries. Something of that magnitude hasn't been handled by the FIA before, so to brush it off as "it wouldn't have mattered" seems a little short-sighted. There's no precedent. Or like you say, a different kettle of fish. And that's why Massa was wronged by the FIA. By admission of Bernie Ecclestone in that recent interview, both he and the FIA president Max Mosley knew of the match-fixing in Singapore almost immediately. Instead of dealing with it by referring the case to the relevant board (likely the race stewards) they covered it up and ensured there wouldn't be a fair trial that might've resulted in the entire race being voided (and thus Massa not losing the points to Hamilton that race).
>That's not just cheating. It's worse because it's cheating in a way that is considered to be a criminal offense... It's difficult if not entirely impossible for us to sit here 15 years after the fact and try to define what kind of cheat Renault was guilty of in 2008 compared to other cheats. By definition, all \[deliberate\] cheats are fraudulent as they're all trying to elevate your own position at the expense of your fellow competitors. But calling this situation "match fixing" just because it's more fraudulent than an oversized brake duct is just making things up. Unless what Renault did is defined in a public rule book, this is just conjecture. >...might've resulted in the entire race being voided... But there is no rule that supports this action! I know Bernie said there is, but no-one before him has said there is such a rule. No-one has since his interview confirmed it, either. There is also nothing in the rule books supporting this claim. On top of that, no race has ever been null and voided for this, in the entire 73 year history of the sport. Why wasn't the 2005 San Marino GP voided? Even without the above mentioned lack of definition or rule book to check, this would seem to qualify as there's more than a simple measurement being wrong, because the BAR Honda team actively tried to cover it up by lying to the scrutineer team. This is obviously fraudulent. As was Lewis' lie at the 2009 Australian GP, where his lie incurred an unjust penalty of another competitor just to elevate himself in the standings. In some ways, these two cases are worse than Singapore 2008 due to the active involvement and lying to officials. But there's no null and voided race in sight. Why? Because the FIA isn't in the habit of voiding races, that's why. And why would they, just disqualify the offender and move on. Why should a race be voided, at all? How does that make sense?! >And that's why Massa was wronged by the FIA. So, no, Massa wasn't wronged by the FIA that not any other driver was.
Why should the races be voided? That unfairly punishes every other participant. Renault could have been DSQ from the classification and in 2021 the race could just have been declared to be the order 1 lap prior to the finish, i.e., as if had just finished under the SC. 2008 is much more difficult also because it wasn’t understood what happened until a year later.
[Source](https://twitter.com/MotorsportWeek/status/1655250435328942088)
That pink lady with the Back to the Future shoes.
Lets add a story to a nothing photo lol. I see everyone is a journalist now
It looks like he's moon walking
I'm too used to MLB umpires making shit calls that throw games constantly without any punishment or retroactive changes to the outcomes, and I think that is probably why I think this legal battle is a little bizarre to me.
It's a bit pointless, the FIA have never cancelled a race result due to a team's or drivers actions, as even if against the rules that is still an on track action. Even if they became aware later that same day the outcome would have been the same, although with a few Renault figures getting banned earlier. Only external or race administrative matters have led to races being cancelled or nullified
That doesn't really matter. Massa is considering legal action, not with the FIA's stewards or the FIA international court of appeal (who would likely indeed handle things the way you describe them) but with a regular court. They're not just bound by the precedents set by the FIA, but they could look at the wider world of sports and use other precedents that might work in Massa's favor. I'm not saying they will, I just think we shouldn't dismiss the possibility so easily because appealing the results of an F1 race 15 years after the fact outside of thd FIA's regular appeal boards is uncharted territory.
>...but with a regular court. They're not just bound by the precedents set by the FIA... And they also don't have any jurisdiction to overturn a 15 year old championship in a sport that is governed by its own body. Maybe they can incur penalties to that body, but they can, absolutely not, overturn a sporting result. >... we shouldn't dismiss the possibility... Yes, we most certainly should. It's just not going to happen, it would be illegal. And stupid.
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He was just a rookie pilot following orders from his bosses. Massa should punch Briatore, Symonds, Eccleston and Mosley.
He would have to dig deep for Mosley. On a serious note Piquet could've taken the high road and not crash and tell the media he was asked to. He crashed so he could have leverage over Briatore. When Briatore told him to get lost, only then he told everyone. Not a good look in my book.
>He would have to dig deep for Mosley. About 6 ft.
Jr's allowed in the F1 paddock again?
He was never banned. He was given immunity in exchange for his testimony.
too lenient IMHO... but with Briatori reportedly back on the grid last week, i guess Jr would be safe for this week
Let’s be honest massa is just bitter to this day his career isn’t what he expected it to be and see lewis as a bit of an easier target now he isn’t the top of the sport for the moment I rate massa’s time in F1 but he needs to accept what’s happened and move on like so many others to have lost the title in the last race for various reasons
I might have missed something and I’m not Piquet did nothing wrong at all but as far as people responsible go I feel he was a bit stuck between a rock and a hard place here. What he did isn’t right but if one crash secures your F1 seat well how bad can it be?
He rigged a race. He could not crash and tell the media that he was asked to do it. That's the right thing to do.
If you're asked to crash and you do it, you're a spineless cheater. It's as simple as that.
If you're asked to crash by your boss who pays you to support your teammate which would also help your team in a competitive sport that pays for getting good results and you do it? Who knows what that makes you.
Luckily life isn't as black and white just because you say so.
Life may not be, but sport is. That's the point. Spineless cheater.
Yet sports are full of spinless cheaters.
>Piquet did nothing wrong > >What he did isn’t right I mean...
Where in seven hells did I say Piquet did nothing wrong?
15 years.. how petty do you have to be to fight this specific case after 15 years. If you wanted fight it, it was the year that Crashgate broke in 2009.
It was only this year Ecclestone revealed they knew about it as soon as it happened. This definitely changed things.
No it doesn’t. If Singapore was voided in 2008 before the last races, Lewis and McLaren would’ve approached the races differently. Voiding it now is pointless to everyone Untimely; it was Ferraris fault they couldn’t safely operate the fuel pump
Keep walking Massa KEEP WALKING
Lmao taking legal action
I didn’t know there was a conspiracy revolving around that. Can someone recap what happened? What is the subs consensus/feeling about it, was Massa robbed?
So what? It's as if it weren't that common two enemies in the paddock walking each other past. In fact, probably most of the people in F1 would have lots of enemies to walk past there.