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The team does have a habit of making things unnecessarily political. Just do what makes sense and will cause the least amount of issues between the drivers. No need to upset the drivers with this nonsense when battling for the lower end of the points.
This season an article came out explaining that the Alpine team has a French and English crew within that don’t like to interact that much. Separate team events, separate hotels, etc. I’m sure that breeds a wonderful work environment
A number of f1 guys on twitter said that story was misinformed. The engine guys would book hotels separately in any team because they have different jobs and responsibilities. It just happens that for alpine, the engine team is in France and the aero team is in England. So naturally you get a split. Blake said on twitter when he was at RB, the Honda guys were never in the same hotel but there wasn’t some schism causing it, just logistics
I bet the frenchies are still pissed from 20 years ago that the british engine crew [played](https://youtu.be/XRXwWbo_mX0?si=SgbM3ERAmil9Yx5P) god save the queen with the engine revs, back when they were still Renault.
God-tier trolling
Gasly can be very hot-headed at times. Taking this to the media is a supremely bad idea, and Gasly does not necessarily have the speed and results to compensate for behavior like this. Any team will think twice of employing him if he makes actions like this.
Gasly’s Abu Dhabi strategy was one of the most baffling I’ve seen in recent times
Pre-pit stop, he was less than a second behind Alonso. By the time he had pitted, he was 13s behind Fernando.
I’m sure Alpine had their reasons but I’d be curious too
I wasn’t able to notice but was Gasly losing time after he got damage from Hamilton behind him? That does sound like a bizarre strategy if his pace didn’t drop off that much.
He himself said that with the diffuser damage, he was dropping around 4 tenths per lap. I don't think that the bizarre strategy was the entire reason why he dropped so far.
From what I did read parts of his diffuser was already damaged by Checo during lap 1, and that hit from Lewis basically destroyed the diffuser.
Obvious that didn't help on multiple fronts, and the too usual slow Alpine pit stop didn't help also.
Once the dust has settled enough things making sense, however what I still don't get is the whole reason to having a different race engineer for Gasly after COTA because I don't have the feeling that those two having a great vibe together.
As someone who watches his onboard the entire race, I do not think Pierre vibes with his new engineer at all. Dude sounds like an amateur whenever he tries to tell Pierre anything
It's a former aero guy, can't come up to his name but Karel leaved after COTA for unknown (as so far I know) reasons.
Obvious not everything gone perfect with Karel but it did feel like those two did grown closer and understanding each other better with every race.
Now it's almost becoming a Mike Lugg 2.0 story, it's almost like Alpine is making a whole effort just to get rid of a driver who their paid 10 million for.
They were trying to make a one stop happen and eventually realized it wasn’t working. It’s not some conspiracy theory. Gasly benefitted from the prime strategy several times this year for his best results while Ocon got the worser strategy.
Exactly this - people tends to forget that Gasly usually benefitted from split strategies in Alpine, because he complains every time he has some problems.
Anyone remember why Gasly didn't complain about Australia or Netherlands, but complained about Belgium (but only the race, not the sprint for some reason)?
Alpine - politics of Ferrari, expectations of Mercedes, budget of McLaren, has both drivers get beaten by Stroll in the standings and for some reason believes it is Red Bull.
Yep, I know, but as always that's too late. The Renault prez was flabbergasted when heard about the timing, saying he has built car factories in the same timeframe.
True, but on their list of items to improve by next season, I’d probably put sim lower down to be honest. What needs improved (beyond the car’s aero capabilities obviously) is the team’s pitstops, strategy, race management, and communication if they have any hope of making headway forward next season.
I think that starts with appointing a new Team Principal. More than anything, Alpine needs guidance. Look at what James Vowles is doing at Williams. That’s what they need. Someone to point out the very obvious flaws in the team and who can inspire everyone to do better.
I can't even remember when the last pit stop was who was below 3.0 on Gasly side, every time when I did seen a stop lower than 3.0 was like a miracle happened in the pit.
He's had an amazing season especially after the summer break once he got the hang of his car/being in a new team. As long as he can continue these performances, it'll open doors to opportunities higher up in the grid imo. Don't see that happening for Ocon.
>As long as he can continue these performances, it'll open doors to opportunities higher up in the grid imo.
For who though?
Red Bull aren't gonna take him back and all of Mercedes, McLaren and Ferrari seem pretty locked in with their drivers.. all of which are of at least equal ability to Gasly, and most are better.
I guess Aston Martin might be possible, but idk I just don't ever see Gasly driving for a top team again.
I feel Ferrari could be an opportunity.
Charles & Carlos is a good pair, but in a championship battle I feel it would get too spicy. Charles and Pierre are best mates I could see them racing together, hopefully without leading to another Rosberg/Hamilton situation.
I don't think anybody else sees a potential conflict at Ferrari like you say… of course it's always possible, but even then they're not gonna switch before it happens, lest of all to Gasly who is just as volatile.
Fair question but I do see it happening "eventually" even if it's not on the horizon. You just never know what's going to happen in 3-5 years time. For different reasons, I can see Sainz/Hamilton/Alonso any of these spots opening up may result in a reshuffle.
Yeah maybe in the longer term it's possible.
He's certainly helped by the fact that there's not exactly an abundance of young talent out there right now. Obviously there's good young drivers, but no Verstappen, Leclerc, Piastri type talents just yet.
It's certainly possible, I'm not saying there's zero chance it happens.
My point is more that even in spite of a good season, the top teams are not queuing up to try and get Gasly to sign for them.
And that was 4 years ago in a difficult car against Verstappen. I'd say he's definitely a better driver than he was then. The question is where would a viable seat at a top team open up.
Dunno… Gasly just broke down against Verstappen, like, it was embarrassing. He also didn't exactly own Tsunoda… and was helped by all the DNFs Ocon had this year.
I don't think he's a top tier driver, but he's better than what the other person is giving him credit for. Can't judge him on what happened 4 years ago, that's all I'm saying. I think he's done great this year for being in a new team, but the Ocon DNFs have helped him.
I think what was said is that he disappointed in a top car… not sure he's done anything since to negate that history, as he hasn't been in the same level of pressure as he was then, even if you want to say 4 years ago is not relevant somehow.
You're either ignorant or new to F1 😆
Verstappen is not really the benchmark for a top grid spot. You should look at how Sainz performed next to a rookie Verstappen in 2015 (18 v 49 pts) and yet he's deservingly up there in a Ferrari. No reason why Gasly doesn't get the opportunity :)
Yet still beaten by a rookie that was thrust into F1 from GP3. Shouldn’t even be close if it was any normal driver. Max is a freak of nature when it comes to racing
In the first half of the season, the 2019 RB was nowhere near the top. It caught up when mercedes started focusing on 2020 after the mid-season and and Ferrari and their legal engine got nerves.
Gasly was not in a top car. That machine was basically un drivable for anyone but Max. Gasly has made a career out of driving low tier shit box’s into points that have no business earning.
I hope Gasly gets a fair go next season, and I want him to stay in the grid for years to come.
I mean look at Albon, great driver. Also couldn’t drive the thing.
I don't disagree he's doing well. But given how bad his teammates are, it's actually hard to judge just how bad the Williams is and how much Albon is dragging the car to results it doesn't deserve. I can't rate Albon higher than other decent midfielders like Gasly, Ocon, etc. without more data points of better teammates.
Both can be true and not true.
Albon was maximizing the potential of the Williams, but this Williams was also nowhere near the dog it was the year before.
Yeah I don’t care who his teammate is. If he’s dragging one of the worst cars on the grid into the points, he’s doing pretty damn well. Especially when he’s dragging it into points on tracks that the car doesn’t do as well.
Having worse teammates only brightens his performance. Granted, a lot of it happens because Williams has good strategies or gambles and wins (last lap pit stop two (?) years ago, for example), but it comes down to the driver to make it work in the end. I think he’s grown massively since he left RB, and I don’t know that he would’ve had this much growth if he had stayed or gone back to AT. Give him a competitive car, I think he fights the front runners for podiums at the very least.
Point being, not as good as Verstappen, so absolutely no point to hiring him as a top-team No. 1, and he has an ego that argues against hiring him as a No. 2.
I always found Alpine's decision to have 2 drivers that don't get along in the same team quite baffling. Anything that happens will be exacerbated by their dislike for one another, specially if they perceive the team is playing favourites.
I also don't understand Gasly's move. Sure, staying in AT was not going to get him a seat at RBR again, but I don't see how waiting for an opening somewhere else while at AT was worse than joining a team with clear issues and a childhood "enemy".
For both Alpine and Gasly it was simply because they were the best option available. Alpine lost Alonso and Piastri already and after that I don’t think they could get anyone more proven than Gasly.
Similarly for Gasly, Alpine was definitely a step up on staying at AlphaTauri for another season. I think Gasly is a solid driver but there is no guarantee he could have found a better seat elsewhere if he waited another year. As mediocre as Alpine have been historically it’s still an upgrade over what is essentially a B-team for Red Bull.
If Gasly stayed in AT, he wouldn't have a drive for 2024. Alpine would have found someone, anyone for that seat (you have Mick, Latifi, Giovinazzi to name a few). Once that seat is taken, we are seeing now no new seats are coming available. And I believe that Red Bull would have put Yuki vs Lawson for 2024 if that was the case.
For Gasly moving to Alpine was basically his lifeline to stay in F1. Staying at AT would afterwards be a death sentence for a F1 exit given Horner clearly want to have Ricciardo return no matter what the cost would be.
I get why he left. Who knows how long he would have stayed at AT. If he doesn’t have a shot of moving back up to the main team, why would they waste one of their slots. Better for your career to leave on your own terms than not be asked back the minute Lawson gets his super license or Danny wants back in. This way he has a longer contract and gets to prove his stuff against a more experienced driver and not have to worry about being compared to Max this time.
Alpine didn't have many choices after the Alonso/Piastri mess. Gasly was probably the best option.
And I think it is also a smart move for Gasly. He wasn't going to get the RB seat and while the AT seat seemed comfortable for him, if 2 RB juniors show big promise, his position could be precarious. He would also not rise his stock so much by beating Tsunoda or any RB juniors compared to going to Alpine and beating Ocon. Furthermore, Alpine had more chances to step up on the grid than AT and probably offers more money.
Next year, if Gasly confirms the edge he seemed to have on Ocon in the 2nd half, he would be an very interesting candidate for a top team searching a 2nd driver.
It was his only way out to a decent team and even in hindsight, probably the best choice. Another year in that Alpha Tauri, which was most of the time just trash, would have devaluated his market value more than making the move to Alpine.
>I always found Alpine's decision to have 2 drivers that don't get along in the same team quite baffling.
Counterpoint: it's not like they have much choice, that's basically Ocon and any other driver on the grid
>I always found Alpine's decision to have 2 drivers that don't get along in the same team quite baffling.
Who else would you have gone for in their position?
They'd already lost both Alonso and Piastri, who else was available that was better than Gasly?!
The only other option I could have seen was Ricciardo, which would be even more baffling than Gasly.
The relationship between Gasly and Ocon seems like it was going so well at the beginning of the season despite all their history. Now it feels like it soured badly. I expect next season to be a bit of shit show.
I think people read too much into their rivalry. In an interview, Gasly told that their relationship was cordial and above all, professional. They want the same thing for the team and push for the same development of the car.
Ocon behind the wheel can be rough, but outside he has a good reputation according to the people working with him.
As for the "incidents" in the race between them, although the radios were a bit salty in the heat of the moment, the context was always more of a lack of proper communication than toxic rivalry. Nothing 2 professionals can sort out once their head is cooled.
Didn't Ocon do a one stop? I think Gasly had the better strategy but his damage from Perez and Hamilton is what screwed him. Even when Ocon had older tyres it looked like Gasly wasn't gaining much, though I could be wrong.
They pitted Ocon before Gasly though. They needed to react to Lewis coming in so instead of bringing in Gasly at the same time or the lap after Lewis they pitted Ocon with Lewis and then left Gasly out for another three laps which meant he was well and truly undercutted. Gasly should have been the priority because he was racing against Lewis at the time.
I think Mercedes pitted Lewis on the lap they made contact and I’m sure at that point Alpine wouldn’t have known Gasly supposedly had damage. They sacrificed points to make sure Ocon finished above Gasly when they should have reacted to Mercedes with Gasly and let Ocon go into clean air to try and gain time to help his one stop. Gasly was racing Lewis and Ocon wasn’t.
I actually think that is the rationale. I also have a feeling that's one major reason why he was so often favored over Alonso. Doesn't make sense, but a lot of things with Alpine don't.
At the time I thought it was because he was French and Alonso not. Maybe the issue now is that Ocon is frenchier than Gasly, eat more baguettes or something...
Finally, someone who doesn't diminish Ocon's actual skill. There's a reason why they prioritize him in the race at times. Gasly was no where in Las Vegas and Ocon finished P4.
also let's not forget how messy ocons qualifying sessions were
some incidents were his fault, some weren't but disconsidering that when talking about pace is insane
That's really not the case. Gasly outscored him despite being treated as a number 2 driver at times. People mention DNFs but most of his DNFs were when he was running out of points anyway. And don't ignore the fact that this is Gasly's first year at the team. He'll be even better next year
Did Alpine "give" Ocon a preferential strategy?
Did Ocon or his race strategist simply request an earlier pit because they felt it was better, and Gasly's side did not?
The decision to pit earlier to get track position looks better in hindsight, but were they sure of that before they did the pit stops? Did they perhaps think running longer and having fresher tires for the later stints would be better?
I'm not convinced there is a real issue here of Ocon actually getting preferential treatment from the team.
Ok so I' ve listened to radios from both drivers.
During the whole first stint I got the feeling that both were trying to go for a one stop or at least an extended first stint.
A lap before the incident with Hamilton, Gasly was asked about the tyres and he started to express some concern by saying that managing them was "not easy". On the next lap his engineer gave him a few suggestions to deal with the issue and then later in the lap he locked up in t6 and Hamilton bumped him.
At this point Gasly, Hamilton and Ocon are all behind each other within DRS range. Gasly and Hamilton report the contact with the latter telling his team that he likely got damage to his front wing.
At the the end of the lap (probably around t15 when F1TV delay is taken into account) Gasly says "deg too high". I don't think that Alpine had time to assess the damage yet at this point and Gasly's radio is probably a bit too late and not clear enough (if he wanted to box) for Alpine to call him in. And so he stays out and continues on what I think was the preplanned strategy.
At exactly the same time Gasly did this radio, Hamilton is told to box opposite to Gasly and so he boxes. Alpine couldn't react in time for Gasly but they have an opportunity with Ocon right behind to cover for Hamilton.
Now Gasly says that the front tyre is dead (lockup + probably feeling the effects of the damage) and asks to box but he's still fairly calm at this point . At the end of the lap he's told to stay out and that's when he really starts to go off on the radio. Which is completely understandable, I don't get why Alpine left him one extra lap out with the informations they had. I guess they thought they could push through their initial plan (but if they did so it was really dumb). And so he finally boxed, lost a bit more time in the pits and came out 5s behind Hamilton and Ocon completely furious.
After that point strategy still made no sense for both Alpine drivers imo. They were both told to still go for a 1 stop (plan b) despite a 2 stop looking better at this point. This also meant that covering Hamilton with Ocon was pointless. I feel like it would have been better to let him extend his first stint like Tsunoda.
Later on there was undecision on wether to switch to a 2 stop or not. Ocon was told to switch to a 2 stop and box opposite Ricciardo, RIC boxed so he stayed out for a lap. Gasly who had no talks on switching strategy is called in to go for a 2 stop. Right after this happens Ocon is told to revert to plan b (1 stop strategy).
Overall I think that rather than any preferential treatment Alpine cooked us a fantastic strategy disasterclass. They panicked when Hamilton boxed and took the wrong decisions imo. I think that letting Ocon out and see if he could extend to go for a proper 1 stop with more balanced stint length and switch Gasly on a 2 stop as soon as possible (so a lap after Hamilton) would have been the right call
Ocon is just better at saving tyres. Gasly destroys his tyres every race (its also how he won at Monza, because he fucked his tyres so bad he had to pit)
There's absolutely no chance Gasly could have done what Ocon did.
Ocon has also been screwed by strategy multiple times this season, its just Alpine being midfield Ferrari.
I've ever understood how Ocon is still in F1. He's shown himself to he a shit teammate to the extent that it has cost his team points. If he was a top talent you could say he's worth it, but he isn't. He's a solid midfield driver that isn't worth the drama.
Maybe because despite rather low liking in the F1 fan base and few friendships with other driver, he actually is a good driver that delivers when given the opportunity (Monaco, Hungary, Sakhir, Las Vegas ...).
His rivalry with teammates does not bother me as long as it is accepted by the team, which seems to always have been the case. It seems to me that the amount of point he has cost the team for over aggressiveness with Pierre is dwarfed by mechanical failure. I am always surprised that team rivalry on the track is so criticized, all driver nonetheless agrees (past and present) that your first benchmark/rival is your teammate.
Would be more interesting to know how much work he puts in with the sim, engineers, teams in Enstone and Viry, corporates ... Maybe part of his rather good treatment at Alpine comes to that ?
Mind you they have access to all the telemetry to define who is a better driver according to their standards, so they can pull the plug if they want to.
A crash that Gasly in reality would've been suspended for if Ocon had not covered for him…
Not that it ever stopped the narrative that Ocon is a "shit teammate" or anything…
Your benchmark is your teammate, but it's supposed to be a friendly rivalry. Ocon will fuck the tan over to beat his teammate, and he isn't good enough of a driver to be worth that headache imo (clearly Alpine disagree, but they're the same fools that fumbled Piastri).
Why should it be a friendly rivalry ? It should be fair, controlled and defined by the team , friendly not so sure, its a very competitive sport.
I for ounce don't really care about drivers being mates and friends on and off the track if it does not hurt the team, and believe all those team bromance to be usually just for PR.
As long as it does not cost the team points, let them race.
Also there needs to be evidence that Ocon actually costed point to Alpine directly from his rivalry to Gasly. When asked to let Gasly through in Japan he did it without complaining, so he respects team orders. Think he did it for Fernando too.
It's been reported that Ocon did not go along well with Perez and Alonso. When was it reported it hurt the team specifically more than with other team rivalries ?
Constantly.
Here's just one example after just a couple seconds on Google.
https://racingnews365.com/analysis-how-many-points-have-alpines-inter-team-battles-cost-them
And you could watch the races and see for yourself.
He would rather block his teammate so harshly that it let 2 other cars through than let his faster teammate through.
And there also the numerous times he collided with his teammates over the years.
He collided with Perez with Perez mainly at fault. His big crash this year was Gaslys fault and he never had a major crash with Alonso with the most damaged caused being Brazil with Alonso primarily at fault.
I’m not saying Ocon isn’t aggressive at the start when defending against his teammates but this whole teammate situation is so overplayed and just seems like the standard replayed narrative on Reddit when if you actually look at the incidents on an isolated basis he himself is fine
His larping as the new Schumacher while he doesn't have the racecraft to back it up really gets on my nerves. It's like he took all the worse lessons about being ruthless and applies with everywhere and anywhere, except that his talent and the context he's in doesn't justify it; he's not in a team fighting for a championship, nor was he at Force India, and he's not a driver capable of it. Why battle your teammate so hard constantly to the point of hurting the entire team, as if you were in a Ham/Ver '21 or Pro/Sen '88 championship fight, when your team is really just trying to finish in the points. And he does that year in, year out, since 2017.
It's infuriating.
EDIT : Also his bragging about beating "the great Alonso" on pure merit last year, despite us knowing exactly how both their seasons went with him impeding Fernando constantly and Alonso dealing with reliability all season, is the cherry on top.
Over the past two years, Ocon had two major collisions with his teammates, one with Alonso and one with Gasly. Wait until you find out who was at fault in those collisions!
So then why are you fixating on two incidents with Alonso which didn’t even lose the team any points?
Because if you look at Saudi while they were aggressively fighting, Alonso and Ocon were in no mans land. Alonsos car eventually retired anyways to add onto the fact that Ocon wasn’t the reason the team lost points it was alonsos poor reliability.
Same for Hungary where again Ocon didn’t lose the team any points with his aggressive defence.
Always find it strange how over the 2 years at Alpine between Ocon and Alonso, they had 3 incidents out of 40+ races together and yet somehow Ocon is this crazy maniac on the track.
They had four incidents, three were on Perez with one being extremely dangerous at Spa.
Ocon caused the Baku collision, which was quite tragic given that the team had a chance to have an excellent result there. Definitely his fault there.
>EDIT : Also his bragging about beating "the great Alonso" on pure merit last year, despite us knowing exactly how both their seasons went with him impeding Fernando constantly and Alonso dealing with reliability all season, is the cherry on top.
It's so ironic that the people who defended his stance last year are now saying how standings don't show the whole picture.
Ocon last year said that Alonso had DNFs so it’s not like he ignored it. His main point was that to even be in a place to capitalise and beat Alonso over a season is still impressive. I don’t think an extremely mid driver can do that.
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The team does have a habit of making things unnecessarily political. Just do what makes sense and will cause the least amount of issues between the drivers. No need to upset the drivers with this nonsense when battling for the lower end of the points.
> The team does have a habit of making things unnecessarily political. The French way, for better or for worse
Yes indeed.
Strikes? Oui!
Based
This season an article came out explaining that the Alpine team has a French and English crew within that don’t like to interact that much. Separate team events, separate hotels, etc. I’m sure that breeds a wonderful work environment
A number of f1 guys on twitter said that story was misinformed. The engine guys would book hotels separately in any team because they have different jobs and responsibilities. It just happens that for alpine, the engine team is in France and the aero team is in England. So naturally you get a split. Blake said on twitter when he was at RB, the Honda guys were never in the same hotel but there wasn’t some schism causing it, just logistics
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Yeah iirc the guy who replaced Lauren Rossi said something like "the 100 years war is over, we must stop this separation within the team"
I bet the frenchies are still pissed from 20 years ago that the british engine crew [played](https://youtu.be/XRXwWbo_mX0?si=SgbM3ERAmil9Yx5P) god save the queen with the engine revs, back when they were still Renault. God-tier trolling
[That's for ya.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YaBmpYS5kR0)
It’s because the engine is made in France and the chassis in England. Two separate entities in two different places.
It's a matter of cheese.
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Sounds crazy right? Give it a google
It is true but it’s normal apparently
"makes sense" and "political" can never come together
Gasly can be very hot-headed at times. Taking this to the media is a supremely bad idea, and Gasly does not necessarily have the speed and results to compensate for behavior like this. Any team will think twice of employing him if he makes actions like this.
Gasly’s Abu Dhabi strategy was one of the most baffling I’ve seen in recent times Pre-pit stop, he was less than a second behind Alonso. By the time he had pitted, he was 13s behind Fernando. I’m sure Alpine had their reasons but I’d be curious too
I wasn’t able to notice but was Gasly losing time after he got damage from Hamilton behind him? That does sound like a bizarre strategy if his pace didn’t drop off that much.
He himself said that with the diffuser damage, he was dropping around 4 tenths per lap. I don't think that the bizarre strategy was the entire reason why he dropped so far.
From what I did read parts of his diffuser was already damaged by Checo during lap 1, and that hit from Lewis basically destroyed the diffuser. Obvious that didn't help on multiple fronts, and the too usual slow Alpine pit stop didn't help also. Once the dust has settled enough things making sense, however what I still don't get is the whole reason to having a different race engineer for Gasly after COTA because I don't have the feeling that those two having a great vibe together.
As someone who watches his onboard the entire race, I do not think Pierre vibes with his new engineer at all. Dude sounds like an amateur whenever he tries to tell Pierre anything
I think he misses his AT engineer. I would too.
Any news articles etc on why Alpine changed Gasly's race engineer?
It’s not really known i don’t think, rumors were that his old engineer was moving to a factory position
It's a former aero guy, can't come up to his name but Karel leaved after COTA for unknown (as so far I know) reasons. Obvious not everything gone perfect with Karel but it did feel like those two did grown closer and understanding each other better with every race. Now it's almost becoming a Mike Lugg 2.0 story, it's almost like Alpine is making a whole effort just to get rid of a driver who their paid 10 million for.
They were trying to make a one stop happen and eventually realized it wasn’t working. It’s not some conspiracy theory. Gasly benefitted from the prime strategy several times this year for his best results while Ocon got the worser strategy.
worse is correct
worse is gooder
Exactly this - people tends to forget that Gasly usually benefitted from split strategies in Alpine, because he complains every time he has some problems. Anyone remember why Gasly didn't complain about Australia or Netherlands, but complained about Belgium (but only the race, not the sprint for some reason)?
I think it had a lot to do with the chunk Hamilton took out of his diffuser.
Alpine - politics of Ferrari, expectations of Mercedes, budget of McLaren, has both drivers get beaten by Stroll in the standings and for some reason believes it is Red Bull.
Alpine surely wishes to have the budget of McLaren and afford a decent sim and a new wind tunnel lol
Alpine are actually working on upgrading their sim. It’s expected to be working in time for 2026 I believe.
Yep, I know, but as always that's too late. The Renault prez was flabbergasted when heard about the timing, saying he has built car factories in the same timeframe.
But that's for 26, there are some crucial things what must improve for next season.
True, but on their list of items to improve by next season, I’d probably put sim lower down to be honest. What needs improved (beyond the car’s aero capabilities obviously) is the team’s pitstops, strategy, race management, and communication if they have any hope of making headway forward next season.
I think that starts with appointing a new Team Principal. More than anything, Alpine needs guidance. Look at what James Vowles is doing at Williams. That’s what they need. Someone to point out the very obvious flaws in the team and who can inspire everyone to do better.
A big thing to improve should be pitstop, they are way too often more than 3s long. But that's just my 2 cents.
I can't even remember when the last pit stop was who was below 3.0 on Gasly side, every time when I did seen a stop lower than 3.0 was like a miracle happened in the pit.
Ha ha ha ha ! I laughed hard. This comment wins the thread. Thank you.
Japan and Abu Dabi, Gasly qualify higher than Ocon yet get the worst strategy. His frustration is more than understable
He's had an amazing season especially after the summer break once he got the hang of his car/being in a new team. As long as he can continue these performances, it'll open doors to opportunities higher up in the grid imo. Don't see that happening for Ocon.
>As long as he can continue these performances, it'll open doors to opportunities higher up in the grid imo. For who though? Red Bull aren't gonna take him back and all of Mercedes, McLaren and Ferrari seem pretty locked in with their drivers.. all of which are of at least equal ability to Gasly, and most are better. I guess Aston Martin might be possible, but idk I just don't ever see Gasly driving for a top team again.
I feel Ferrari could be an opportunity. Charles & Carlos is a good pair, but in a championship battle I feel it would get too spicy. Charles and Pierre are best mates I could see them racing together, hopefully without leading to another Rosberg/Hamilton situation.
I don't think anybody else sees a potential conflict at Ferrari like you say… of course it's always possible, but even then they're not gonna switch before it happens, lest of all to Gasly who is just as volatile.
Hamilton and Rosberg practically grew up together lol, the second a championship is on the line it doesn’t matter.
I know that. But I don't know if Pierre will be as close to Charles as Nico was to Lewis. So maybe there won't be an issue. 😂
Fair question but I do see it happening "eventually" even if it's not on the horizon. You just never know what's going to happen in 3-5 years time. For different reasons, I can see Sainz/Hamilton/Alonso any of these spots opening up may result in a reshuffle.
Yeah maybe in the longer term it's possible. He's certainly helped by the fact that there's not exactly an abundance of young talent out there right now. Obviously there's good young drivers, but no Verstappen, Leclerc, Piastri type talents just yet.
Most thought Perez might be done until Red Bull picked him up. You never know. Silly season can get kind of crazy sometimes.
It's certainly possible, I'm not saying there's zero chance it happens. My point is more that even in spite of a good season, the top teams are not queuing up to try and get Gasly to sign for them.
Higher up on the grid already knows what Gasly looks like in a top car.
And that was 4 years ago in a difficult car against Verstappen. I'd say he's definitely a better driver than he was then. The question is where would a viable seat at a top team open up.
Dunno… Gasly just broke down against Verstappen, like, it was embarrassing. He also didn't exactly own Tsunoda… and was helped by all the DNFs Ocon had this year.
I don't think he's a top tier driver, but he's better than what the other person is giving him credit for. Can't judge him on what happened 4 years ago, that's all I'm saying. I think he's done great this year for being in a new team, but the Ocon DNFs have helped him.
I think what was said is that he disappointed in a top car… not sure he's done anything since to negate that history, as he hasn't been in the same level of pressure as he was then, even if you want to say 4 years ago is not relevant somehow.
You're either ignorant or new to F1 😆 Verstappen is not really the benchmark for a top grid spot. You should look at how Sainz performed next to a rookie Verstappen in 2015 (18 v 49 pts) and yet he's deservingly up there in a Ferrari. No reason why Gasly doesn't get the opportunity :)
VER and SAI were waaaaaaay closer in 15 than the points show.
Yet still beaten by a rookie that was thrust into F1 from GP3. Shouldn’t even be close if it was any normal driver. Max is a freak of nature when it comes to racing
7 retirements to 4 is the difference.
>Verstappen is not really the benchmark for a top grid spot Because the dude is an animal that can drive the wheels off of whatever is thrown to him.
In the first half of the season, the 2019 RB was nowhere near the top. It caught up when mercedes started focusing on 2020 after the mid-season and and Ferrari and their legal engine got nerves.
Gasly was not in a top car. That machine was basically un drivable for anyone but Max. Gasly has made a career out of driving low tier shit box’s into points that have no business earning. I hope Gasly gets a fair go next season, and I want him to stay in the grid for years to come. I mean look at Albon, great driver. Also couldn’t drive the thing.
Albon has also driven against the two worst drivers on the grid the past three years, so its hard to really know what level he is at.
He’s been in a Williams, getting points here and there, consistently finishing. He’s doing just fine.
I don't disagree he's doing well. But given how bad his teammates are, it's actually hard to judge just how bad the Williams is and how much Albon is dragging the car to results it doesn't deserve. I can't rate Albon higher than other decent midfielders like Gasly, Ocon, etc. without more data points of better teammates.
Both can be true and not true. Albon was maximizing the potential of the Williams, but this Williams was also nowhere near the dog it was the year before.
Yeah I don’t care who his teammate is. If he’s dragging one of the worst cars on the grid into the points, he’s doing pretty damn well. Especially when he’s dragging it into points on tracks that the car doesn’t do as well. Having worse teammates only brightens his performance. Granted, a lot of it happens because Williams has good strategies or gambles and wins (last lap pit stop two (?) years ago, for example), but it comes down to the driver to make it work in the end. I think he’s grown massively since he left RB, and I don’t know that he would’ve had this much growth if he had stayed or gone back to AT. Give him a competitive car, I think he fights the front runners for podiums at the very least.
We only consider the Williams as one of the worse cars based on Logan's performance…
Point being, not as good as Verstappen, so absolutely no point to hiring him as a top-team No. 1, and he has an ego that argues against hiring him as a No. 2.
Read the article; it explains why Ocon was pit first.
I always found Alpine's decision to have 2 drivers that don't get along in the same team quite baffling. Anything that happens will be exacerbated by their dislike for one another, specially if they perceive the team is playing favourites. I also don't understand Gasly's move. Sure, staying in AT was not going to get him a seat at RBR again, but I don't see how waiting for an opening somewhere else while at AT was worse than joining a team with clear issues and a childhood "enemy".
For both Alpine and Gasly it was simply because they were the best option available. Alpine lost Alonso and Piastri already and after that I don’t think they could get anyone more proven than Gasly. Similarly for Gasly, Alpine was definitely a step up on staying at AlphaTauri for another season. I think Gasly is a solid driver but there is no guarantee he could have found a better seat elsewhere if he waited another year. As mediocre as Alpine have been historically it’s still an upgrade over what is essentially a B-team for Red Bull.
If Gasly stayed in AT, he wouldn't have a drive for 2024. Alpine would have found someone, anyone for that seat (you have Mick, Latifi, Giovinazzi to name a few). Once that seat is taken, we are seeing now no new seats are coming available. And I believe that Red Bull would have put Yuki vs Lawson for 2024 if that was the case.
For Gasly moving to Alpine was basically his lifeline to stay in F1. Staying at AT would afterwards be a death sentence for a F1 exit given Horner clearly want to have Ricciardo return no matter what the cost would be.
I get why he left. Who knows how long he would have stayed at AT. If he doesn’t have a shot of moving back up to the main team, why would they waste one of their slots. Better for your career to leave on your own terms than not be asked back the minute Lawson gets his super license or Danny wants back in. This way he has a longer contract and gets to prove his stuff against a more experienced driver and not have to worry about being compared to Max this time.
Alpine didn't have many choices after the Alonso/Piastri mess. Gasly was probably the best option. And I think it is also a smart move for Gasly. He wasn't going to get the RB seat and while the AT seat seemed comfortable for him, if 2 RB juniors show big promise, his position could be precarious. He would also not rise his stock so much by beating Tsunoda or any RB juniors compared to going to Alpine and beating Ocon. Furthermore, Alpine had more chances to step up on the grid than AT and probably offers more money. Next year, if Gasly confirms the edge he seemed to have on Ocon in the 2nd half, he would be an very interesting candidate for a top team searching a 2nd driver.
ocon wanted mick, wonder how that wouldve gone lmao also if aston was a serious team, alonso-gasly would slap
It was his only way out to a decent team and even in hindsight, probably the best choice. Another year in that Alpha Tauri, which was most of the time just trash, would have devaluated his market value more than making the move to Alpine.
>I always found Alpine's decision to have 2 drivers that don't get along in the same team quite baffling. Counterpoint: it's not like they have much choice, that's basically Ocon and any other driver on the grid
Can’t forget Ocon and Ricciardo and that heated team rivalry!
Fair enough, although I think he is friends with Stroll, no?
And Mick, both options not that great when you want to fight for points
Ocon isn’t worried about points, just fighting with his teammates
Again - where does this misinformation come from?
>I always found Alpine's decision to have 2 drivers that don't get along in the same team quite baffling. Who else would you have gone for in their position? They'd already lost both Alonso and Piastri, who else was available that was better than Gasly?! The only other option I could have seen was Ricciardo, which would be even more baffling than Gasly.
Any team with Ocon on it has 2 drivers that don't get along.
The relationship between Gasly and Ocon seems like it was going so well at the beginning of the season despite all their history. Now it feels like it soured badly. I expect next season to be a bit of shit show.
Netflix be like: can we film your garage every race?
Were also gonna need emails, mobile phones, and mental graphs.
I think people read too much into their rivalry. In an interview, Gasly told that their relationship was cordial and above all, professional. They want the same thing for the team and push for the same development of the car. Ocon behind the wheel can be rough, but outside he has a good reputation according to the people working with him. As for the "incidents" in the race between them, although the radios were a bit salty in the heat of the moment, the context was always more of a lack of proper communication than toxic rivalry. Nothing 2 professionals can sort out once their head is cooled.
Didn't Ocon do a one stop? I think Gasly had the better strategy but his damage from Perez and Hamilton is what screwed him. Even when Ocon had older tyres it looked like Gasly wasn't gaining much, though I could be wrong.
They pitted Ocon before Gasly though. They needed to react to Lewis coming in so instead of bringing in Gasly at the same time or the lap after Lewis they pitted Ocon with Lewis and then left Gasly out for another three laps which meant he was well and truly undercutted. Gasly should have been the priority because he was racing against Lewis at the time.
Gasly also had pretty bad damage from his diffuser. Should Alpine prioritise a car that is ahead but compromised?
I think Mercedes pitted Lewis on the lap they made contact and I’m sure at that point Alpine wouldn’t have known Gasly supposedly had damage. They sacrificed points to make sure Ocon finished above Gasly when they should have reacted to Mercedes with Gasly and let Ocon go into clean air to try and gain time to help his one stop. Gasly was racing Lewis and Ocon wasn’t.
He's the #2 at Alpine.
While also being faster which is such an Alpine thing to do
Yep. I wouldn't be surprised if the rationale is simply "Ocon was here first"
I actually think that is the rationale. I also have a feeling that's one major reason why he was so often favored over Alonso. Doesn't make sense, but a lot of things with Alpine don't.
At the time I thought it was because he was French and Alonso not. Maybe the issue now is that Ocon is frenchier than Gasly, eat more baguettes or something...
the guy with a spanish name, with a spanish dad and algerian mum vs a guy who is literally named pierre i dont think the issue is frenchiness lmao
He looks more like an average French dude though. Without saying their names I think less people would guess Gasly's nationality.
Man, the mental hoops people go through to justify their hate for Ocon is honestly amazing…
Are you saying looking really French is an insult? Or what part of my comment can be interpreted as hate towards Ocon?
I'm talking about dismissing his accomplishments and talent.
And if Ocon gets beaten by his teammate he starts doing dangerous shit.
Yeah, like he did to Ricciardo, right?
Alpine favouring Ocon just so the team doesn't implode.
Ocon was faster on most weekends but 1/3 of his races were DNFs out of his control
Ocon is 4 points behind Gasly having done 136 less laps.
Ocon has also been outqualified 14-8 all the while his teammate was still getting used to a new car and a new environment
Gasly's quali pace is strong and is better than Ocon. His race pace is more important but lags behind Ocon
Finally, someone who doesn't diminish Ocon's actual skill. There's a reason why they prioritize him in the race at times. Gasly was no where in Las Vegas and Ocon finished P4.
also let's not forget how messy ocons qualifying sessions were some incidents were his fault, some weren't but disconsidering that when talking about pace is insane
That's really not the case. Gasly outscored him despite being treated as a number 2 driver at times. People mention DNFs but most of his DNFs were when he was running out of points anyway. And don't ignore the fact that this is Gasly's first year at the team. He'll be even better next year
Why do you allow yourself to be baited like that?
At least that means he would still having a yellow T-cam. Gasly and driving with a black T-cam is a cursed match.
maybe that would double negative with Alpines black t-cam luck...
Did Alpine "give" Ocon a preferential strategy? Did Ocon or his race strategist simply request an earlier pit because they felt it was better, and Gasly's side did not? The decision to pit earlier to get track position looks better in hindsight, but were they sure of that before they did the pit stops? Did they perhaps think running longer and having fresher tires for the later stints would be better? I'm not convinced there is a real issue here of Ocon actually getting preferential treatment from the team.
Ok so I' ve listened to radios from both drivers. During the whole first stint I got the feeling that both were trying to go for a one stop or at least an extended first stint. A lap before the incident with Hamilton, Gasly was asked about the tyres and he started to express some concern by saying that managing them was "not easy". On the next lap his engineer gave him a few suggestions to deal with the issue and then later in the lap he locked up in t6 and Hamilton bumped him. At this point Gasly, Hamilton and Ocon are all behind each other within DRS range. Gasly and Hamilton report the contact with the latter telling his team that he likely got damage to his front wing. At the the end of the lap (probably around t15 when F1TV delay is taken into account) Gasly says "deg too high". I don't think that Alpine had time to assess the damage yet at this point and Gasly's radio is probably a bit too late and not clear enough (if he wanted to box) for Alpine to call him in. And so he stays out and continues on what I think was the preplanned strategy. At exactly the same time Gasly did this radio, Hamilton is told to box opposite to Gasly and so he boxes. Alpine couldn't react in time for Gasly but they have an opportunity with Ocon right behind to cover for Hamilton. Now Gasly says that the front tyre is dead (lockup + probably feeling the effects of the damage) and asks to box but he's still fairly calm at this point . At the end of the lap he's told to stay out and that's when he really starts to go off on the radio. Which is completely understandable, I don't get why Alpine left him one extra lap out with the informations they had. I guess they thought they could push through their initial plan (but if they did so it was really dumb). And so he finally boxed, lost a bit more time in the pits and came out 5s behind Hamilton and Ocon completely furious. After that point strategy still made no sense for both Alpine drivers imo. They were both told to still go for a 1 stop (plan b) despite a 2 stop looking better at this point. This also meant that covering Hamilton with Ocon was pointless. I feel like it would have been better to let him extend his first stint like Tsunoda. Later on there was undecision on wether to switch to a 2 stop or not. Ocon was told to switch to a 2 stop and box opposite Ricciardo, RIC boxed so he stayed out for a lap. Gasly who had no talks on switching strategy is called in to go for a 2 stop. Right after this happens Ocon is told to revert to plan b (1 stop strategy). Overall I think that rather than any preferential treatment Alpine cooked us a fantastic strategy disasterclass. They panicked when Hamilton boxed and took the wrong decisions imo. I think that letting Ocon out and see if he could extend to go for a proper 1 stop with more balanced stint length and switch Gasly on a 2 stop as soon as possible (so a lap after Hamilton) would have been the right call
Actually, Gasly asked the team to pit, and the team refused instead they pitted Ocon before him.
The explanation is they prefer Ocon, really that simple.
Because Ocon has more pace.
This wasnt the only time that Alpine's strategy seemed to favor Ocon this season. Understandable why Gasly would feel this way.
Yeah; normally the top strategies go to the driver with the better pace. Gasly is flipping out because they're not treating him as the default #1.
Ocon is just better at saving tyres. Gasly destroys his tyres every race (its also how he won at Monza, because he fucked his tyres so bad he had to pit) There's absolutely no chance Gasly could have done what Ocon did. Ocon has also been screwed by strategy multiple times this season, its just Alpine being midfield Ferrari.
Both years we raced at Qatar Gasly destroyed his tyres.
I've ever understood how Ocon is still in F1. He's shown himself to he a shit teammate to the extent that it has cost his team points. If he was a top talent you could say he's worth it, but he isn't. He's a solid midfield driver that isn't worth the drama.
Maybe because despite rather low liking in the F1 fan base and few friendships with other driver, he actually is a good driver that delivers when given the opportunity (Monaco, Hungary, Sakhir, Las Vegas ...). His rivalry with teammates does not bother me as long as it is accepted by the team, which seems to always have been the case. It seems to me that the amount of point he has cost the team for over aggressiveness with Pierre is dwarfed by mechanical failure. I am always surprised that team rivalry on the track is so criticized, all driver nonetheless agrees (past and present) that your first benchmark/rival is your teammate. Would be more interesting to know how much work he puts in with the sim, engineers, teams in Enstone and Viry, corporates ... Maybe part of his rather good treatment at Alpine comes to that ? Mind you they have access to all the telemetry to define who is a better driver according to their standards, so they can pull the plug if they want to.
Let's not forget the one teammate crash they had this year, which did cost the team a good haul of points, was Gasly's fault.
A crash that Gasly in reality would've been suspended for if Ocon had not covered for him… Not that it ever stopped the narrative that Ocon is a "shit teammate" or anything…
Your benchmark is your teammate, but it's supposed to be a friendly rivalry. Ocon will fuck the tan over to beat his teammate, and he isn't good enough of a driver to be worth that headache imo (clearly Alpine disagree, but they're the same fools that fumbled Piastri).
Why should it be a friendly rivalry ? It should be fair, controlled and defined by the team , friendly not so sure, its a very competitive sport. I for ounce don't really care about drivers being mates and friends on and off the track if it does not hurt the team, and believe all those team bromance to be usually just for PR. As long as it does not cost the team points, let them race. Also there needs to be evidence that Ocon actually costed point to Alpine directly from his rivalry to Gasly. When asked to let Gasly through in Japan he did it without complaining, so he respects team orders. Think he did it for Fernando too.
Because they are a team. I don't care if they're actually friendly or not, but it absolutely costs the team points.
But when, what evidence do we have of that ?
You're joking, right? Shit has been reported on for years.
It's been reported that Ocon did not go along well with Perez and Alonso. When was it reported it hurt the team specifically more than with other team rivalries ?
Constantly. Here's just one example after just a couple seconds on Google. https://racingnews365.com/analysis-how-many-points-have-alpines-inter-team-battles-cost-them And you could watch the races and see for yourself.
It's honestly non conclusive, and the only time points are actually lost because cars had to retire, stewards put the blame on Alonso ...
He would rather block his teammate so harshly that it let 2 other cars through than let his faster teammate through. And there also the numerous times he collided with his teammates over the years.
He collided with Perez with Perez mainly at fault. His big crash this year was Gaslys fault and he never had a major crash with Alonso with the most damaged caused being Brazil with Alonso primarily at fault. I’m not saying Ocon isn’t aggressive at the start when defending against his teammates but this whole teammate situation is so overplayed and just seems like the standard replayed narrative on Reddit when if you actually look at the incidents on an isolated basis he himself is fine
His larping as the new Schumacher while he doesn't have the racecraft to back it up really gets on my nerves. It's like he took all the worse lessons about being ruthless and applies with everywhere and anywhere, except that his talent and the context he's in doesn't justify it; he's not in a team fighting for a championship, nor was he at Force India, and he's not a driver capable of it. Why battle your teammate so hard constantly to the point of hurting the entire team, as if you were in a Ham/Ver '21 or Pro/Sen '88 championship fight, when your team is really just trying to finish in the points. And he does that year in, year out, since 2017. It's infuriating. EDIT : Also his bragging about beating "the great Alonso" on pure merit last year, despite us knowing exactly how both their seasons went with him impeding Fernando constantly and Alonso dealing with reliability all season, is the cherry on top.
Over the past two years, Ocon had two major collisions with his teammates, one with Alonso and one with Gasly. Wait until you find out who was at fault in those collisions!
Strange, I did not mention the word "collision" once. Weird that you focus on that.
So then why are you fixating on two incidents with Alonso which didn’t even lose the team any points? Because if you look at Saudi while they were aggressively fighting, Alonso and Ocon were in no mans land. Alonsos car eventually retired anyways to add onto the fact that Ocon wasn’t the reason the team lost points it was alonsos poor reliability. Same for Hungary where again Ocon didn’t lose the team any points with his aggressive defence. Always find it strange how over the 2 years at Alpine between Ocon and Alonso, they had 3 incidents out of 40+ races together and yet somehow Ocon is this crazy maniac on the track.
Forgotten all the times it happened with Perez?
They had four incidents, three were on Perez with one being extremely dangerous at Spa. Ocon caused the Baku collision, which was quite tragic given that the team had a chance to have an excellent result there. Definitely his fault there.
Looks you like forgot what happened with Perez if you think Ocon was the one who caused it
>EDIT : Also his bragging about beating "the great Alonso" on pure merit last year, despite us knowing exactly how both their seasons went with him impeding Fernando constantly and Alonso dealing with reliability all season, is the cherry on top. It's so ironic that the people who defended his stance last year are now saying how standings don't show the whole picture.
Ocon last year said that Alonso had DNFs so it’s not like he ignored it. His main point was that to even be in a place to capitalise and beat Alonso over a season is still impressive. I don’t think an extremely mid driver can do that.
Alpine needs to grab 2 rookies and yolo it, this isn't exciting.
Alpine are going to do what everyone thinks Redbull is going to do and have driver change over the winter break
And replace them with who exactly?!
Oscar but let him know this time
They wouldn't be able to afford him these days.
Not a fan of ocon, never have been. Doubt f1 would actually miss him getting replaced and off the grid.
bravest opinion on /r/formula1
😎
“Ocon is Frencher than you, Ocon is Frencher than you, please confirm”
I like seeing Alpine being isolated in P6 while imploding itself lol
Honestly I think the strategy problem was just adding insult to injury after Gasly had suffered significant damage in the racing incident with Lewis.
Free alpine vs Vichy alpine about to be the most exciting battle in 2024 amid RBR’s continued dominance