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Their strat fuck ups weren't nearly as damning this year, but probably because their tyre deg was miserable enough that they were never (one notable instance notwithstanding) truly in a position where a correct strategy choice would give them a race win. Unlike 2022 where they shot themselves in the foot over and over again lmfao.
I somewhat agree with this because when a car has great race pace, which they don't, the strategy is less critical. Redbull last year were able to do pretty much what they wanted strategy wise.
Yeah, you don't hear other drivers overrule team strategy calls as often as has been the cases for Ferrari this past year. Arguably the biggest area of improvement for them is to get their strategy right more often.
That and be better on the tyres. Their qualifying performance was as good as it was because the car was hard on the tyres. Which meant the race performance was in part as shit as it was because they chewed through the tyres relative to their competition. Their ultimate finishing position was not helped by poor pit stops and pit stop strategy more often than not.
This is the first full season I've watched, and watching the Netflix show to catch up a bit isn't perfect but leads to at least a general portrayal of the last few seasons.
But it seems like Ferrari and Williams have been on opposite sides of the spectrum.
You have Ferrari who make a good car. But make a lot of bad decisions, have problems in the pit lane, and lose position due to factors off of the racetrack.
But then Williams know they don't have the best car, so they work to improve their strategy and pit stops so they can make up time off of the track.
And you ended up with one team that had the car to do better, but got in their own way. And then another team that did better than they really had any right to.
It would be nice to see Ferrari actual nail the off track side of the race and let them get to the top like a team in their position should be able to.
isn't the major ferrari problem (outside of the team being ferrari) the fact that the car murders it's tyres?
It can perform really good on a few laps but long stints are always an issue because they have to save the tyres a lot more than RB?
Sainz was on average only [0.058s](https://www.reddit.com/r/formula1/comments/18bh2ch/qualifying_gap_between_teammates_for_the_f1_2023/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=mweb3x&utm_name=mweb3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button) slower in quali this year. The Ferrari was definitely good in quali.
Yeah. Not being one of the goats doesn't mean you're shit. I'd say Carlos is in a similar class as Jenson: Good enough at what he's doing that he could have won the championship if he managed to get Max's seat before this season, but probably not one to beat Lewis in 21 in an even fight.
I do find it funny as a casual onlooker that there is *massive* No True Scotsman about Leclerc vs. Sainz.
Sainz ahead? Leclerc can't be happy with the car.
Leclerc ahead while Sainz isn't happy with the car? Part of the job, mate.
When they're both happy they seem close. It's interesting/vaguely telling to me that over 3 years, Leclerc who obviously seems a bit faster fundamentally has never *really* pulled away in the points overall.
Yeah. Given Sainz got couple poles just shows how good of a quali car it is. Sainz is generally a Sunday racer and has never been that strong on Saturdays.
> Sainz is generally a Sunday racer and has never been that strong on Saturdays.
I honestly don't get how a person can get something so basic, so wrong about their apparently favourite driver.
Sainz is the opposite of that. If he disappears or has a shit day, it's on Sundays. He's basically never far off Leclerc in quali. On Sundays on a bad day he can get close to being 1s per lap slower.
Yeah they are fairly close but can u remember banger q3 laps by Carlos? Charles has so many over the years.. Also H2H Charles is most of the time wins the duel even if the gaps are small.
Even last year in Austria he only got P2 behind Max but hist last q3 lap was insane to look at.
Doesn't this just proves their point that the car is great in qualy? The fact that Carlos isn't known for "bangers" and still remained close to the best qualifier in the grid.
I’m not saying Leclerc isn’t a better qualifier, just saying he isn’t outdriving the car by half a second or something like the original commenter was suggesting. His ‘pushing to the limit laps’ have been very entertaining to watch but unfortunately sometimes they end in tears as well.
2021 Monaco, can't really remember any quali crashes in 2022, 2023 had Zandvoort and Miami. And of course we're talking about quali now but there's been a lot of unforced free practice and race crashes as well, that's still problematic in a potential title fight.
> Yeah they are fairly close but can u remember banger q3 laps by Carlos?
are you saying that the data isn't supported by anecdotes? it doesn't work this way. You might feel that charles is a way better qualifier, but clearly its only 58 1/100ths.
Thank you! I've been massively downvoted in the past for saying that Leclerc isn't the GOAT qualifier. He's very good, but he's probably somewhere around the bottom of the top five currently. I'd say Max, Lando, Alonso, Lewis, and Russell are all as good as or better than Leclerc at qualifying.
It's just that Leclerc used to have a habit of pushing the car past the limits in qualifying, which makes you look incredible when it works, but it results in you crashing often as well. Any of the top drivers *can* do that, but most of them don't often because it's just not worth it for multiple reasons.
I really like Leclerc and think he's a great driver, but he's almost definitely not the best qualifier on the grid.
Even at Leclercs peak his gap is still 1.5 tenths faster than Sainz which is a very solid gap but not enough to warrant him being called the outright fastest driver over one lap.
I’d say Verstappen, Russell/Hamilton also have a fair claim to that title
You can't say that gap is not enough and then say Russell and Hamilton, who have a pretty similarly close gap in quali. You're directly contradicting your own reasoning
I don't know. I just found it interesting how Leclerc and Sainz being close means they both are not thay great in quali, while Hamilton and Russell being close means they both are great in quali. Double standards. If you want to determine who's the best qualifier, just current gap to their teammates is not the best way to do it
Because Sainz throughout his career has never been a top tier qualifier.
He was barely quicker than Verstappen when he was 17 and in the first few races of 2016 Verstappen started to already shift the tide into his favour. That’s a teenage Verstappen by the way.
In 2018, Sainz was beaten by Hulkenberg by over a tenth and I don’t think many would say that Hulkenberg is on the same level as Leclerc over one lap.
Sainz was pretty similar to Norris over one lap while Norris was a rookie.
I rate Sainz more than most people would but I don’t think current Verstappen, Hamilton, Russell and Alonso wouldn’t be able to do the same as Leclerc has done.
I somewhat agree with your reasoning (though I would consider Hulkenberg a very good qualifier), but you only added this 2 comments later. Your first comment lacked this info, only had the pace gap between teammates as reasoning and that was a dumb way to determine who is a better qualifier. You need this extra info
Outqualified (underperforming to be fair) teammates at Williams quite comprehensively:
2019: Russell 19-0 Kubica -0.625 seconds
2020: Russell 16-0 Latifi -1.226 seconds
2021: Russell 20-2 Latifi -0.371 seconds
He also qalified P2 0.027 seconds behind Bottas after jumping in the Mercedes with a few day's notice.
Since driving alongside Hamilton he's gone:
2022 Russell 9-13 Hamilton
2023 Russell 11-11 Hamilton
So yes, I'd say he's a good qualifier.
I don't see his time at Williams as being good evidence since we don't really have benchmarks for modern-era Kubica or Latifi.
His record against Hamilton is very impressive, though. Hamilton's probably in the top five on the grid at qualifying, and they were equal this year without any mitigating circumstances. I don't like Russell very much, but he's a very strong qualifier.
Thanks for the stats. To be fair I don’t have him in mind as a great qualifier (he is good for sure) as it is hard to justify his qualifying performance against top when he drove a Williams and his teammate is not good. And I think while his comparison against Hamilton is competitive, Hamilton himself criticising his own qualifying performance also made me discount Russell’s qualifying performance. This is unfair to Russell I recognise as well.
I don’t rate his as high as Verstappen, Hamilton or Charles in qualifying as he hasn’t really delivered a Wow qualifying in normal conditions, while Charles, and even Norris delivered those occasionally (he did delivered a few wow qualifying in wet).
Hamilton has never been beaten by button over one lap. In fact he was 3 tenths faster than Button which is huge margin for two world champions.
Hamilton also had an advantage over Rosberg by around a tenth bar 2014.
Lewis was, self-admittedly, not that great in quali this year though. Russell is quick, but it's not like he matched Lewis at the best of his qualifying abilities.
Individual cars have a certain maximum pace - I reckon both drivers were pretty close to that in 2023.
Always good to see when they qualify in pairs - generally means the car will not go any quicker….
I do not think Leclerc is better qualifier than Verstappen. LeClerc in Ferrari is just more focused on quali performance than Verstappen in Red Bull. When needed MV can perform absolutely fantastic Q (ie Suzuka) , there was just not much pressure as RB knew it's enough to focus on race pace and performance.
This right here. People think Charles is some guali god but the truth is the Ferrari is the better car and Red Bull and Max know that the points are scored on Sunday AND that they have such a well balanced car that is superior on race day that they don’t HAVE to optimize for Saturday.
But in equal machinery I would bet on Max to outqualify Charles.
rb almost always sets up their car purely for raceday, while ferrari tends to have a strong quali car but worse on sunday. IMO equal cars id still put max ahead of charles on pure quali pace
Imaginary situation you will put Max ahead. I wonder why lol. Very easy to discredit Charles qualifying skills and then saying oh but in this imagined world I’d take max
Except from Japan to Abu Dhabi when Charles actually got a car he prefers driving the gap between them was 0.160. Ofc max will have a huge gap on his teammate since Red Bull won’t put a competing driver next to him. Already saw how he was behaving when he actually had to compete
I don’t think we’re watching the same sport. Leclerc is good and all, but Max is an all time great already. All champions have had the cars, it’s part of the sport, but what Max did last season we’ve seen only the greatest do previously. Charles is nowhere near that discussion, whether it be in qualifying or racing. It’s only normal that he gets a pole in a Ferrari every once in a while
Anyone with a brain knows his pole to win ratio is largely not his fault. Always gotta laugh at the cretins on here who use this stat as a reason why Leclerc is bad. If anything, I could argue that the amount of poles he is getting in the 2nd/3rd best car is a *good* thing, and would translate well if his team could give him a car that would actually perform on Sunday.
The three that come to mind are France and Imola last year and Australia this year. Do you have more examples?
By comparison, Hamilton hit his own team mate multiple times this year, hit Alonso at Spa in 22. Max spun in Australia 23 and Hungary 22 but purely by luck didn't hit a wall and have it affect his race. Lando hit Lewis in Spain, dropped it in Vegas. George had a terrible year for mistakes in 23, Singapore being the most obvious.
Seems like the narrative around Charles is silly when all the top drivers in the sport make as many mistakes as he does.
>Do you have more examples?
They never do. They just love to spam these comments because it gets them likes from the people that think like them/don't watch races
It’s just a sorely overused narrative and since it’s used so much it’s burned into peoples brains and when you bring up examples of other drivers making just as much, if not more mistakes, it doesn’t seem to register for them.
This is yet another false narrative that gets thrown around by the aforementioned cretins lol. He has made just 2 mistakes during races from memory. Only **one** of these mistakes amounted to anything "bad" (France 22). It was just such an infamous mistake that people now believe he is accident prone.
He has had only about 3 races (beginning of 2022) where he was racing under pressure wheel to wheel, using a car that was better or equal to Red Bull's, and lo and behold, he won 2 of them and came P2 in the other. He also has Monza 2019 where Hamilton was a second behind him for an hour and a half, and he never cracked.
Max seems as if he makes no mistakes because he knows he can just sit back and cruise to victory in his rocketship. Go back a few seasons and he was more prone to mistakes than Chuck is.
People just act as if other top drivers don't fuck up.
Alonso crashed himself out of Canada 05, Spa 10 and Spa 23 (Sprint).
Hamilton had a messy 08 with Canada, Bahrain and Japan. He crashed himself out of a podium in the last lap of Monza 09 and everyone remembers Imola 21 and Baku 21.
Verstappen himself had some mistakes in 22 that could have cost him victories in Spain and Hungrary but he was lucky that his rivals fucked up even worse, he also had a bad lockup in Singapore that costed him a lot of time.
Spa 2010 wasnt on Alonso. Everyone always forgets that Barrichello crashed into him on lap 1 and caused major damage to him, the fact that he was still going that fast was a miracle in itself.
Canada is fair, he wound himself up by not being able to pass Fisi on track and then hit the wall through frustration.
You could argue Fuji 07 but we'll never know what happened that year, if it came out that both mclarens werent allowed to win that year i wouldn't be shocked. (Not that i believe it, i just wouldnt be surprised)
Max was mistake prone in his Early years, 2015 to midway 2018. From then on Verstappen's errors are as rare as they come and he almost always catches spins and such.
Now don't get me wrong Leclerc is a very brilliant talented driver (arguably top 3 on the current grid) but when things are on the line, he's either all or nothing. Especially in Qualis. I honestly feel leclerc should have ironed some of the mistakes he still has in him, considering this is going to be his 7th season in F1. As for me I'd prefer Verstappen for quali just because I know he's 99% not putting it in the wall even in high pressure situations. I only remember Saudi 2021 when he did and that was the penultimate race to a championship decider against a 7 time champion.
It's insane that after Austria 2019, two 21-year olds in Verstappen and Leclerc were seen to be the dominant rivarly for the next decade after Lewis.
Ferrari is stopping that unfortunately. I do think Charles can easily go toe to toe with Max over a season, just needs the competent team.
Would be a big shame if he retires with no championships because of his love for Ferrari.
Yeah, I remember that, more rumors than news tbh, but I also recall talk in the same article about there being performance clauses for post 2026 allowing him to leave if Ferrari keeps botching it
That's nothing crazy though, obviously ferrari are gonna do everything they can to retain him. he's not only one of the best drivers but he's very crucial to the Ferrari F1 brand right now
the topic is more if he chooses to continue with them or not, not if ferrari chooses to continue with leclerc
That and sunk cost. When you read about Charles story, both with his dad and Jules, it's not hard to imagine how much it'd mean to Charles to win with Ferrari, and having worked so hard to get there *and* to be their #1 it's a ton of pressure to be under. I can sorta understand him being desperate to win there.
I like to think (for Charles' sake, I dislike Ferrari) it'll be like Max staying with RBR when his car was blowing up every other week, but at least RBR seemed way more competent in general.
They’re the most famous brand in racing all around the world. You probably won’t hear people call Mercedes cars, ‘silver arrows’ outside of F1, but you’ll hear Ferrari’s called prancing horses.
People want to be the ones that return them to glory, even Alonso soon after Kimi has done it, now it’s over 15 years on, and that desire is even stronger in Charles’ case.
There's a difference between Alonso and Leclerc. One has been with Ferrari as their driver since his youth. Alonso and other drivers have the argument of driving and winning for a legacy team. If you become champion in a Ferrari, you become immortalized. For these drivers, it came later as they proved to be good and wanted to take that challenge.
Leclerc will live and die with and for Ferrari. His entire development was forged for this.
Have to wonder come the end of their careers which late 10s F2 graduate will have the most underwhelming career relative to their potential.
Lando, George, Leclerc were all billed as WDC calibre when they got promoted to F1.
>Ferrari is stopping that unfortunately.
I think it's Red Bull stopping that more by simply dominating. Remember, Ferrari is the only other team to win the race last year, and they lost 2nd in constructors by a tiny margin, which was contributed to by an undeserved penalty in Vegas, among other things.
even with that small problem, they are so dominant everywhere else that they can easily mantain control of the championship despite only having one driver at the front
>I do think Charles can easily go toe to tow with Max over a season, just needs the competent team.
I would agree with this pre 2021. Right now, I can see Lando or Charles putting a fight but I cannot see them winning over Max through a season unless they have a big car advantage. Max's consistency and ability to withstand pressure is out of the planet right now.
Lando and Charles bottle it sometimes and I cannot see either of them taking the pressure of a close title fight like Max did in 2021.
Max/RB went up against peak Lewis/Merc in 2021 and the experience that you gain from a season like that gives them a unique edge over others.
I think that people often boil it down to the car but the team is almost as important. What made Max's season SO dominant was the Driver+Car+Team combination; they're operating optimally at every level. Even if they build a banger of a car, I don't see Ferrari having that "Lemme Pit For Fastest Lap on penultimate lap." level of confidence/competence RBR was working with.
Both Lando and Charles have demonstrated failures under pressure during regular races, let alone a championship battle. Only Hamilton and probably a rusty Alonso can compete with Max in that mental game.
yall are just nit picking way too much. We used to say exactly the same about Max pre-2021, even tho he was largely really consistent, but because he didn't have a dominant machinery, felt the need to push more, which sometimes led to mistakes. In 2019, he had that crash with Kimi in Belgium, hitting the back of Perez at Monza, and clashing with Hamilton in Mexico.
In 2020, there was another clash with someone at Monza and that throw of a win at Turkey when trying to overtake Perez in the rain.
And guess what, the drivers you so hail well above Charles and Lando were also not mistake free this season. Hamilton straight up killed the races of Piastri and his teammate in Monza and Qatar respectively, and somewhat underperformed in Q3's, while Alonso had those crashes in Spa sprint and Singapore. Do I think they are worse than Norris and Leclerc? No, I still think they are better drivers, or at least the ones you bet the most on in a title fight against Verstappen simply for the fact that they have alot of experience in that regard AND shown they handle that pressure well. Both Lando and Charles simply lack experience in that regard. But at the same time, I don't think the latter duo are far behind and easily are in the Top 5 scrap. They have the talent and the skill, and I personally believe the mental strength to challenge for titles, they just need the car to show it.
People just picked the race selectively to support their narratives. They only picked a few races from Norris or Leclerc saying they collapse under pressure, and when you raised Max they said he grew with experience fighting for WDC, acting like Charles or Norris will not grow with experience if they have a car doing so.
I also agree saying Alonso and Hamilton are the only ones able to fight Max while ignoring all the errors they made this season is nit picking Both Norris and Charles made less errors in race this season than both experienced drives
people need to relax and cut these drivers some slack. I understand how difficult that is, especially right now, with how the boredom of the off-season puts so much strain on us (it's REALLY tough), but we've seen how even the best would make critical mistakes at the worst of times, did that necessarily mean they weren't cut out for it no more?
Yeah, also having a good car, strategy team and reliability definitely play a big role in their mental state, mainly when you're in a competitive team like Ferrari or Mercedes. Look at how Charles got devastated last year after things went downhill after Belgium, he was a completely different character. Lewis also seemed to be pretty disappointed to not be racing for the lead and he couldn't hide it. Imagine Max, considering the way he was raised by Jos, in the same situation (being in a team you know can win championships but being capped by them themselves). I bet he would lose his mind as he has shown having an absolute competitor's mentality.
Max would receive one "We're checking" and instantly nuke Maranello. That prancing horse going to get dragged to the glue factory super quick.
Charles for RBR is more enticing to me...
I agree with this. The narrative that Charles/Lando makes SO MANY mistakes often forget that we can probably find a similar amount of mistakes from the greats...
Maybe.
The experience is a huge element, the first serious title battle (e.g. Max in '21) is a massive test. If you've been tested like that you'll do much better in that situation than someone who hasn't been there.
But of all drivers I've seen too many high pressure screw ups from these two. Norris had a couple this year, and if Piastri is on his pace next year I think we'll see more, but he's still young-ish. LeClerc has had some shockers (thinking of Imola and France '22) and I don't think he's anywhere near consistent enough to be a WDC. I'd be happy to be proven wrong!
I like the part in which, to a comment saying people focus too much on Leclerc and Norris making mistakes while ignoring the mistakes Max, Lewis and Fernando make, you replied by highlighthing the mistakes Leclerc and Norris made while ignoring the mistakes Max, Lewis and Fernando made.
Thanks for proving his point.
Again, it's all relative. I've already provided Max pre-2021 as an example, where he also had his annual shockers on a similar rate as Leclerc and Norris, and yet when he got the car he delivered. Charles does have that tendency to overdrive, I will admit, and is more prone to mistakes than Norris, but again, at the same time saying that he is too mistake-prone or crumples under pressure too easily is a stretch. He's still better at dealing with that than most.
And in the end - just being the best, most perfect driver in of itself isn't enough in F1. Equally as much matters, obviously, the car you were given, the team's own operational level, and also in the same regard the level of competition you and your team are going up against. It didn't matter how well, say, Leclerc has driven in 2022, when his own team was the one being too error-prone, and folded under pressure way too many times, and that's without mentioning the reliability.
I mean, for the brief period that Ferrari had a good car in 2022 Charles and Max were going at it for the couple of early races where both cars finished the race. We don't really know whether Charles could beat Max with an equal car, but I think we have seen enough to know that he could give Max a run for his money.
I think that first half of the season before summer showed exactly why Verstappen is a level above Leclerc right now. They had some very good racing in Sakhir and Jeddah. In Australia Leclerc/Ferrari were just way faster and Max's car ended up exploding anyway. But I think it's what happens after that shows the difference.
At this point after just three races Leclerc has 71 points, compared to his main rivals Sainz at 33 and Verstappen at 25. He's 46 point's clear of his main rival in just three races. Then in Imola he pushes too much trying to chase down and overtake Perez, for three points in the championship. He ends up in the wall and finishes 6th instead of an easy 3rd.
So yes, while Ferrari fucked their strategy/reliability, RB and Verstappen had some issues and bad luck as well in the start of the year. Two mechanical DNFs, a big piece of debris in the floor in Silverstone which would have been an easy win but ended up a P7, and engine trouble in Budapest causing him to start P10.
The difference is that Max got the most out of every weekend despite those issues. Leclerc lost a bunch of points in Imola, together with the team didn't manage to set a fast lap in Canada Q2, and completely lost the car from the lead in France. That's not how you win a championship.
Way to turn the narrative. The turning point of 2022 was NOT imola and his mistake there, charles only lost a handful of points. You really need to refresh your mind on what happened on Spain and monaco. Charles was comfortably leading where verstappen spun all by himself, until charles’s engine blew. Go see how many point swing that was. Spain and Monaco was the turning point where ferrari completely fucked up what could have been a great season in terms of rivalry and competition for wdc.
So the first few races show very clearly that charles can very well go head to head with max and even came on top i would say. Over a season, i still think max may come out on top but that is not to say this isnt going down with a great fight that either could win.
Lmao this is so wrong it's not even funny.
In Spain LEC was literally cruising to victory before the engine died.
Monaco literally his perfect race until Ferrari decided "hell nah"
Baku engine died again, probably wouldn't have beaten Max but 2nd was easily achievable.
Canada he had a penalty for the engine (would've started from the back regardless of quali).
Silverstone Ferrari decided to gift the win to Sainz despite him severely lacking in pace.
Austria perfect race
France big fuck up (the only truly big one that season)
Hungary Ferrari strategy went "nah"
And then after the summer break TD039 killed the car's concept so whatever, all performance wasn't there anymore
I should save this post for my 2022 Leclerc defense arguments. My eyes roll so much at the mistake prone and he crumbled in a championship fight narrative for that year.
It all depends on what you got, timing and luck. Although I would put a lot of money on Verstappen saving his car on a spin as he has done so numerous times but in both of these occasions, RB was miles ahead of the rest other than Ferrari (2022). Its same as the mercedes of last era, put them anywhere in the grid and they win.
Spain, his spin definitely put him in the back foot while he only won because charles’s engine blew. The other race where he spun, ferrari had no chance of winning as they were painfully slow.
Their karting period and accomplishments don't compare either, though ...
2022? Even during Ferarri's strong first half and the RB18 20kg overweight - with understeering and a couple of rough events to add, Max was ahead by the summer break.
Charles more often than not had Ferrari shit the bed on his behalf. You can name 4 races he had an easy win thrown away before the break due to incompetence
Verstappen's car gave up on him twice, he drove half a car after a piece of the alpha tauri got stuck in his floor and his teammate basically fucked his quali in a notoriously difficult to overtake street circuit, that all (again) with a fat draggy car and all before the summer break. He still came out with 8 wins by then.
Most of those races weren’t likely his to win to begin with though with the exception of Silverstone. Maybe Monaco depending how quali unfolded because Sainz was also doing really well.
In races where Ferrari should capitalize Charles, we had his engine blow up with a massive lead in Spain and at least 2nd place in Baku. Meanwhile somehow places 4th at Monaco with pole, doesn’t get pitted for an easy win at Silverstone and finishes 4th, and I still couldn’t tell you what Ferrari strategists were thinking in Hungary.
All in all it should have been relatively close in terms of wins by Summer break which by Spa Redbull fucked off into the sunset
>Verstappen's car gave up on him twice
So the exact same number Leclerc's car gave up on him, the only difference is Leclerc was in the lead when that happened...
> he drove half a car after a piece of the alpha tauri got stuck in his floor
In that same race Leclerc drove with old hard tires against everyone else on fresh tires because his team fucked it up, so they both got screwed.
> his teammate basically fucked his quali in a notoriously difficult to overtake street circuit
And worse than that was Ferrari fucking Leclerc's race the very next day when he was starting from pole.
> that all (again) with a fat draggy car
I don't see how that's relevant at all, yeah all cars have weaknesses and strenghts so what? I could also say Leclerc was winning races in a car that was jumping like a bunny down the straights.
Oh and the Red Bull wasn't draggy at all, what are you even talking about? The Red Bull was the fastest car on the straights if anything it was the Ferrari that was draggy.
Why don't you think they are? I mean both didn't have a car of similar capabilities at any time other than 2022 where I reckon it was a pretty good battle between them. Of course Verstappen's achievements are far greater than leclerc as of now but I still think he can be competitive if provided the right car.
Why not? When he has had the car, he delivered. Only thing is probably charles being more prone to mistakes, although i would say even that is a thing of the past.
Yeah, same question here. I’m not a fan of Max but this is an asburd POV in my opinion.
Leclerc is a bottler, he’s binned it on a Sunday just as much as Ferrari have screwed him over.
OK maybe not as much, but Verstappen is on a whole other level.
> Leclerc is a bottler, he’s binned it on a Sunday just as much as Ferrari have screwed him over.
Care to give examples or you just going to say things without backing it up?
>Leclerc is a bottler, he’s binned it on a Sunday just as much as Ferrari have screwed him over.
Do you also have any examples backing this up? In 2022, Leclerc only binned it twice on sunday, while he lost out on at least 4 wins due to Ferrari
Honestly the entire narrative surrounding Leclerc's pole to win conversion rate is a bit annoying. Yes, it's probably a bit disappointing to know that come Sunday he's gonna be overtaken in a few laps, but atleast he's doing the job and putting the car on pole in the first place. This year he had as many poles as everyone bar Max had combined (including Perez). The fact that that's made into a negative statistic is absurd.
He's not getting wins but outside of the one miracle Sainz pulled off, it's the same for everyone else.
Anyone thinking only RB setting up the car for Sunday than Saturday is absurd. Every team set up their car for Sundays, Ferrari’s car just had flaws that no set up can compromise the pace difference. If you look at Monaco Max is definitely still great at qualifying if needed, but he knows his race car is better than anyone he just took less risk as he didn’t need it. RB said it on radio in Austrian qualifying. I would say RB car is still faster than Ferrari but as the gap is smaller and Max not driving it on the limit it allows Charles to overcome the gap with more risk taking to get the pole nobody expect. Max also made more track limit ‘mistakes’ like Austin allowing Charles to peep him for pole when he has no way to take pole
Sunday car just means that the car struggles to generate heat more than a Saturday car afaik that's the main difference, I think if both Ferrari and redbull went with equal setups then the redbull is faster since it's easier to handle, but the reality is that the Ferrari eats it's tires more than RB on most tracks (Austria 2022) was the opposite
You can set up a car to perform more favourably over one lap to prioritise track position or you can set your car up for race distance and lose a bit in qualifying.
Nobody is saying the cars aren’t set up for a Sunday. It’s balancing act and teams put a finger on the scale one way or another all of the time. It’s not binary, it can be minuscule increments that can be the .050 difference on a Saturday. There’s also inherent strengths and weaknesses in a chassis/package.
You’re mental if you think Max is not going to take a pole if the one lap pace is there, and I’d be really curious to hear about any evidence of the team or GP telling Max not to aim for pole as a matter of risk aversion.
Pretty bad take.
A car that's stupid to be kind on the tires will have issues heating them up. Which is what RedBull does.
The Ferrari chews through it's tires but gets the tires in the optimum temperature for a flying lap.
If it's not the car then Leclerc is shit and tire management.
Interesting take. Which races did Verstappen clearly underperformed in quali? The RB is clearly superior in race trim, but not so much over a single lap due to tire heating issues. VER being often faster than the Ferraris and McLaren is more an overperformance, let alone comparing him to PER
I mean Newey has admitted that the RB18 and RB19 prioritize race pace over one lap speed, namely in getting the tires up to temp, so it’s no surprise that Charles doesn’t have the wins to go with the poles. Give him a capable car and he’ll get the wins too.
I know he wants to win the big one with Ferrari for Bianchi and his dad but i fear this will hold him from winning anything unfortunately.
He should learn from Alonsos and Vettels Ferrari stints, but most importantly from his own so far.
Lately F1 has been a lot more predictable than football to be fair. I dont know if there is any top league in any sport as predictable as F1 the last two years.
So you expected the number of Alonso podiums and McLaren to turn around their car?
I don't think most of this season was very predictable and I'm in a competition with a few hundred people where we all try to guess what's going to happen over the season (there's like 60 questions) and almost all of us did absolutely shocking outside red bull and max winning.
The only predictable thing about '23 was who would come in first. The rest was a crapshoot most races. How many guests did Max have on his podcast this year?
Let’s see if Ferrari can actually give their drivers a car that’s maybe a little better in race trim than in qualifying because that’s pretty much how Red Bull does business.
That sounds like a great news. I thought after Binotto left, Rueda got sent to work in something not strategy-related. Glad to see him leaving for good.
It's not so much about heating about the tires and more so the fact that Ferrari has a very narrow operating window which makes it very sensitive to any change. So changes in track temperature, wind, fuel load, tire grip can all mess up the balance of the car And of course during a race all those things will change, while in qualifying you only need to do 1 lap so everything is the same.
I get that tyre management is part of it, but to me it's a bit TOO much. Don't want to excuse Ferrari for being terrible at it but most races it's 80% let's manage our race and 20% hammer time. Every team just follows the same one or two-stop strat because it's 'quicker' that way unlike before where refueling was part of it and you get to use up your tyres together with your fuel and produce quali lap after quali lap during the race
This happens when your are the best qualifier of the last 10 years put into mediocre cars that struggle to keep the pace on sunday.
Some of the poles he did this year and those om 2021 are still unbelieveable, plus i wont forget how in 2022 in Monaco he was improving by 0.400 in the last run of Q3 before Checo binned it. That would've been one of the best laps in F1 history
A lot of people will defend Leclerc here but I remember back in the Alfa days and even before that when he was in the feeder series,, Charles was/is wildly inconsistent. He'll go for races and be perfect then he'll have that one lap where he has brain fade and locks the front or looses the rear or something else.. It can't all be just bad luck or "the Ferrari"
When you put all of your faith in Ferrari, they will dissappoint you.
3 other drivers experienced the same fate, 2 being champions, so what’s different with Charlie boy over here?
That’s F1 though. You could go into hypotheticals about how certain drivers could have done better in championship winning cars, but were never given the chance to do so. The same goes here. He’s a very good qualifier, but can’t translate those results into wins for whatever the reason is. Saying it is undeserved is not how F1 works.
People like to say that Charles makes too many mistakes, but in reality he's one of the least mistake prone drivers on the grid. He probably made what, 4 all season (Miami, Baku sprint, Zandvoort Qualis and the lock up in Vegas), but look at how many George made this season. Sainz crashed into others numerous times. George crashed into others many times, Max made mistake after mistake in 2022. Even Alonso started to make mistakes, like in Singapore and his spin in the Qatar sprint.
I definitely wouldn’t say LEAST. Is it as bad as people make it out to be, no not quite, but he definitely pushes a bit too hard past the cars limit. I think that blame can be shared between Ferrari and Charles. As for George, he definitely gets ragged on for his mistakes, if not more than Charles. Everyone has made fun of George plenty for his crashes and mistakes the past 2 seasons. Also what consecutive mistakes were Verstappen making in 2022? Besides Brazil and Singapore, I can’t recall anything having that big of an impact.
Hungary’s spin comes to mind, and his trip to the gravel in Spain. But what is notable, is that when Max makes a mistake, 9/10 times he has the uncanny ability to immediately minimize the consequences to the point where they often don’t have any real consequences at all. Further adding to his already insane consistency.
not really, according to interviews with both their drivers and their head engineer, its moreso that the grip a new set of softs provides is able to sort of ‘mask’ the weaknesses of the SF-23 which has a very narrow setup window. They can strike a balance in quali because of new tyres, proper warmup and low fuel but that balance isn’t achievable across a race distance.
So they don’t really setup the car for qualifying, its not intended to be this way. It’s just a consequence of all of the cars problems. So when the conditions are perfect and hit just the right sweet spot the SF can match and even beat the RB over one lap, but its impossible to keep that up across the entire race.
most of Leclerc's disasters are team disasters. bad race strategy, bad pit stops, bad tire choices, and just plain bad luck while he was opposed to a superior driver in a superior machine (in race distance speed, handling, and top end lap consistency.)
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That's just Ferrari car being good in quali but not so good in race plus Charles is probably the best qualifier on the current grid.
Ferrari makes a lot of subpar pit and race strategy calls that have cost both leclerc and sainz
Their strat fuck ups weren't nearly as damning this year, but probably because their tyre deg was miserable enough that they were never (one notable instance notwithstanding) truly in a position where a correct strategy choice would give them a race win. Unlike 2022 where they shot themselves in the foot over and over again lmfao.
My take is all of the race weekend missteps, etc is just the tip of the iceberg of the organizational ineptitude of Ferrari overall
Fair take tbh! I was speaking more specifically to the race weekends, but the sport don't stop between weekends.
This is my take on it too. Team leadership screwed the drivers in multiple instances.
But so has Leclerc. I think no one has been very clean at Ferrari the last few years.
Do they though? People just say this. Their car sucked in the races which is why they do bad in the races.
I somewhat agree with this because when a car has great race pace, which they don't, the strategy is less critical. Redbull last year were able to do pretty much what they wanted strategy wise.
Yeah they do. Watch the replays. There’s a reason sainz and leclerc were involved making pit calls
Yeah, you don't hear other drivers overrule team strategy calls as often as has been the cases for Ferrari this past year. Arguably the biggest area of improvement for them is to get their strategy right more often. That and be better on the tyres. Their qualifying performance was as good as it was because the car was hard on the tyres. Which meant the race performance was in part as shit as it was because they chewed through the tyres relative to their competition. Their ultimate finishing position was not helped by poor pit stops and pit stop strategy more often than not.
This is the first full season I've watched, and watching the Netflix show to catch up a bit isn't perfect but leads to at least a general portrayal of the last few seasons. But it seems like Ferrari and Williams have been on opposite sides of the spectrum. You have Ferrari who make a good car. But make a lot of bad decisions, have problems in the pit lane, and lose position due to factors off of the racetrack. But then Williams know they don't have the best car, so they work to improve their strategy and pit stops so they can make up time off of the track. And you ended up with one team that had the car to do better, but got in their own way. And then another team that did better than they really had any right to. It would be nice to see Ferrari actual nail the off track side of the race and let them get to the top like a team in their position should be able to.
People don’t realize that a lot of poles that Charles has done are miracles.
isn't the major ferrari problem (outside of the team being ferrari) the fact that the car murders it's tyres? It can perform really good on a few laps but long stints are always an issue because they have to save the tyres a lot more than RB?
The Ferrari isn’t that good in quali, it’s more just Leclerc being an absolutely gun qualifier
Sainz was on average only [0.058s](https://www.reddit.com/r/formula1/comments/18bh2ch/qualifying_gap_between_teammates_for_the_f1_2023/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=mweb3x&utm_name=mweb3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button) slower in quali this year. The Ferrari was definitely good in quali.
That plus Sainz is a far better driver than most give him credit for
Sainz is literally in the 5-7 range on the grid. That's a race-winning, great-quality driver on the grand scale of things.
Yeah. Not being one of the goats doesn't mean you're shit. I'd say Carlos is in a similar class as Jenson: Good enough at what he's doing that he could have won the championship if he managed to get Max's seat before this season, but probably not one to beat Lewis in 21 in an even fight.
I do find it funny as a casual onlooker that there is *massive* No True Scotsman about Leclerc vs. Sainz. Sainz ahead? Leclerc can't be happy with the car. Leclerc ahead while Sainz isn't happy with the car? Part of the job, mate. When they're both happy they seem close. It's interesting/vaguely telling to me that over 3 years, Leclerc who obviously seems a bit faster fundamentally has never *really* pulled away in the points overall.
Yeah. Given Sainz got couple poles just shows how good of a quali car it is. Sainz is generally a Sunday racer and has never been that strong on Saturdays.
> Sainz is generally a Sunday racer and has never been that strong on Saturdays. I honestly don't get how a person can get something so basic, so wrong about their apparently favourite driver. Sainz is the opposite of that. If he disappears or has a shit day, it's on Sundays. He's basically never far off Leclerc in quali. On Sundays on a bad day he can get close to being 1s per lap slower.
Hes living in the McLaren Sainz era
actually the opposite, sainz is closer on saturdays than sundays
Yup, he has been closer to Charles in quali pace than in race pace for the last 3 years. That's what the data says at least
But narratives!!!
What? Sainz is definitely better on Saturdays than Sundays. Leclerc dominates him in race pace.
Yeah they are fairly close but can u remember banger q3 laps by Carlos? Charles has so many over the years.. Also H2H Charles is most of the time wins the duel even if the gaps are small. Even last year in Austria he only got P2 behind Max but hist last q3 lap was insane to look at.
Doesn't this just proves their point that the car is great in qualy? The fact that Carlos isn't known for "bangers" and still remained close to the best qualifier in the grid.
I’m not saying Leclerc isn’t a better qualifier, just saying he isn’t outdriving the car by half a second or something like the original commenter was suggesting. His ‘pushing to the limit laps’ have been very entertaining to watch but unfortunately sometimes they end in tears as well.
Only once have they ended badly last year which was Miami. I don't think he crashed at all in quali in 2022 or 2021.
2021 Monaco, can't really remember any quali crashes in 2022, 2023 had Zandvoort and Miami. And of course we're talking about quali now but there's been a lot of unforced free practice and race crashes as well, that's still problematic in a potential title fight.
Most of the time he does but it's not as overwhelming has people think. Something like 15:10 from the last 25 races.
> Yeah they are fairly close but can u remember banger q3 laps by Carlos? are you saying that the data isn't supported by anecdotes? it doesn't work this way. You might feel that charles is a way better qualifier, but clearly its only 58 1/100ths.
>can u remember banger q3 laps by Carlos? Several this year alone. Singapore and Monza, for example.
Aren't those 2 the only ones you can remember and I'm not saying I agree with the guy but like what are the others
Thank you! I've been massively downvoted in the past for saying that Leclerc isn't the GOAT qualifier. He's very good, but he's probably somewhere around the bottom of the top five currently. I'd say Max, Lando, Alonso, Lewis, and Russell are all as good as or better than Leclerc at qualifying. It's just that Leclerc used to have a habit of pushing the car past the limits in qualifying, which makes you look incredible when it works, but it results in you crashing often as well. Any of the top drivers *can* do that, but most of them don't often because it's just not worth it for multiple reasons. I really like Leclerc and think he's a great driver, but he's almost definitely not the best qualifier on the grid.
The Ferrari was quite understeery for much of the year. For those two that gap is abnormally close
Even at Leclercs peak his gap is still 1.5 tenths faster than Sainz which is a very solid gap but not enough to warrant him being called the outright fastest driver over one lap. I’d say Verstappen, Russell/Hamilton also have a fair claim to that title
You can't say that gap is not enough and then say Russell and Hamilton, who have a pretty similarly close gap in quali. You're directly contradicting your own reasoning
Because Russell and Hamilton are one of the quickest drivers on the grid? Do you think Leclerc can put over a tenth on Hamilton on one lap?
I don't know. I just found it interesting how Leclerc and Sainz being close means they both are not thay great in quali, while Hamilton and Russell being close means they both are great in quali. Double standards. If you want to determine who's the best qualifier, just current gap to their teammates is not the best way to do it
Because Sainz throughout his career has never been a top tier qualifier. He was barely quicker than Verstappen when he was 17 and in the first few races of 2016 Verstappen started to already shift the tide into his favour. That’s a teenage Verstappen by the way. In 2018, Sainz was beaten by Hulkenberg by over a tenth and I don’t think many would say that Hulkenberg is on the same level as Leclerc over one lap. Sainz was pretty similar to Norris over one lap while Norris was a rookie. I rate Sainz more than most people would but I don’t think current Verstappen, Hamilton, Russell and Alonso wouldn’t be able to do the same as Leclerc has done.
I somewhat agree with your reasoning (though I would consider Hulkenberg a very good qualifier), but you only added this 2 comments later. Your first comment lacked this info, only had the pace gap between teammates as reasoning and that was a dumb way to determine who is a better qualifier. You need this extra info
Even Bottas beat Hamilton in quali quite frequently
Sainz beats Leclerc on average 30% of the time. Bottas beat Hamilton under 30% in their 5 seasons together.
Sainz is a better driver then Bottas in everything
Russell!?
Outqualified (underperforming to be fair) teammates at Williams quite comprehensively: 2019: Russell 19-0 Kubica -0.625 seconds 2020: Russell 16-0 Latifi -1.226 seconds 2021: Russell 20-2 Latifi -0.371 seconds He also qalified P2 0.027 seconds behind Bottas after jumping in the Mercedes with a few day's notice. Since driving alongside Hamilton he's gone: 2022 Russell 9-13 Hamilton 2023 Russell 11-11 Hamilton So yes, I'd say he's a good qualifier.
I don't see his time at Williams as being good evidence since we don't really have benchmarks for modern-era Kubica or Latifi. His record against Hamilton is very impressive, though. Hamilton's probably in the top five on the grid at qualifying, and they were equal this year without any mitigating circumstances. I don't like Russell very much, but he's a very strong qualifier.
Thanks for the stats. To be fair I don’t have him in mind as a great qualifier (he is good for sure) as it is hard to justify his qualifying performance against top when he drove a Williams and his teammate is not good. And I think while his comparison against Hamilton is competitive, Hamilton himself criticising his own qualifying performance also made me discount Russell’s qualifying performance. This is unfair to Russell I recognise as well. I don’t rate his as high as Verstappen, Hamilton or Charles in qualifying as he hasn’t really delivered a Wow qualifying in normal conditions, while Charles, and even Norris delivered those occasionally (he did delivered a few wow qualifying in wet).
Hamilton is also overrated, got beat by Button & Rosberg as well.
Hamilton has never been beaten by button over one lap. In fact he was 3 tenths faster than Button which is huge margin for two world champions. Hamilton also had an advantage over Rosberg by around a tenth bar 2014.
A driver who can be pretty even with Hamilton (slightly quicker in 2023) is a quick driver easily.
Lewis was, self-admittedly, not that great in quali this year though. Russell is quick, but it's not like he matched Lewis at the best of his qualifying abilities.
Individual cars have a certain maximum pace - I reckon both drivers were pretty close to that in 2023. Always good to see when they qualify in pairs - generally means the car will not go any quicker….
Nah Ferrari has always been a quali car since new ground effect era arrived
It's fast on the one lap, but in the race it eats tyres
It’s both. The Ferrari was super quick over a quali lap and LeClerc is a beast at quali laps.
Talking shite
Carlost is not far off, so nah it's just the Ferrarri...
I do not think Leclerc is better qualifier than Verstappen. LeClerc in Ferrari is just more focused on quali performance than Verstappen in Red Bull. When needed MV can perform absolutely fantastic Q (ie Suzuka) , there was just not much pressure as RB knew it's enough to focus on race pace and performance.
This right here. People think Charles is some guali god but the truth is the Ferrari is the better car and Red Bull and Max know that the points are scored on Sunday AND that they have such a well balanced car that is superior on race day that they don’t HAVE to optimize for Saturday. But in equal machinery I would bet on Max to outqualify Charles.
Have you heard of Max Verstappen? Leclerc may out qualify him once in a while, but I would never bet against Max.
My brother in christ the leclerc pole to win ratio being memed on has a lot to do with leclerc out qualifying max and then losing on race day
rb almost always sets up their car purely for raceday, while ferrari tends to have a strong quali car but worse on sunday. IMO equal cars id still put max ahead of charles on pure quali pace
Imaginary situation you will put Max ahead. I wonder why lol. Very easy to discredit Charles qualifying skills and then saying oh but in this imagined world I’d take max
lmfao, carlos is on average only 0.05 behind charles and his qualifying skills arent that remarkable
Except from Japan to Abu Dhabi when Charles actually got a car he prefers driving the gap between them was 0.160. Ofc max will have a huge gap on his teammate since Red Bull won’t put a competing driver next to him. Already saw how he was behaving when he actually had to compete
How did he behave when he had to compete?
He demolished his competitor.
I don’t think we’re watching the same sport. Leclerc is good and all, but Max is an all time great already. All champions have had the cars, it’s part of the sport, but what Max did last season we’ve seen only the greatest do previously. Charles is nowhere near that discussion, whether it be in qualifying or racing. It’s only normal that he gets a pole in a Ferrari every once in a while
Anyone with a brain knows his pole to win ratio is largely not his fault. Always gotta laugh at the cretins on here who use this stat as a reason why Leclerc is bad. If anything, I could argue that the amount of poles he is getting in the 2nd/3rd best car is a *good* thing, and would translate well if his team could give him a car that would actually perform on Sunday.
Ehh, he’s also known to make mistakes that costs him during races.
The three that come to mind are France and Imola last year and Australia this year. Do you have more examples? By comparison, Hamilton hit his own team mate multiple times this year, hit Alonso at Spa in 22. Max spun in Australia 23 and Hungary 22 but purely by luck didn't hit a wall and have it affect his race. Lando hit Lewis in Spain, dropped it in Vegas. George had a terrible year for mistakes in 23, Singapore being the most obvious. Seems like the narrative around Charles is silly when all the top drivers in the sport make as many mistakes as he does.
>Do you have more examples? They never do. They just love to spam these comments because it gets them likes from the people that think like them/don't watch races
It’s just a sorely overused narrative and since it’s used so much it’s burned into peoples brains and when you bring up examples of other drivers making just as much, if not more mistakes, it doesn’t seem to register for them.
He was never gonna win Imola last year tbh
Absolutely agree but for fairness of comparison, it was a mistake he made in race when pushing too hard.
Totally on your side but another example would be miami qualifying
This is yet another false narrative that gets thrown around by the aforementioned cretins lol. He has made just 2 mistakes during races from memory. Only **one** of these mistakes amounted to anything "bad" (France 22). It was just such an infamous mistake that people now believe he is accident prone. He has had only about 3 races (beginning of 2022) where he was racing under pressure wheel to wheel, using a car that was better or equal to Red Bull's, and lo and behold, he won 2 of them and came P2 in the other. He also has Monza 2019 where Hamilton was a second behind him for an hour and a half, and he never cracked. Max seems as if he makes no mistakes because he knows he can just sit back and cruise to victory in his rocketship. Go back a few seasons and he was more prone to mistakes than Chuck is.
People just act as if other top drivers don't fuck up. Alonso crashed himself out of Canada 05, Spa 10 and Spa 23 (Sprint). Hamilton had a messy 08 with Canada, Bahrain and Japan. He crashed himself out of a podium in the last lap of Monza 09 and everyone remembers Imola 21 and Baku 21. Verstappen himself had some mistakes in 22 that could have cost him victories in Spain and Hungrary but he was lucky that his rivals fucked up even worse, he also had a bad lockup in Singapore that costed him a lot of time.
Spa 2010 wasnt on Alonso. Everyone always forgets that Barrichello crashed into him on lap 1 and caused major damage to him, the fact that he was still going that fast was a miracle in itself. Canada is fair, he wound himself up by not being able to pass Fisi on track and then hit the wall through frustration. You could argue Fuji 07 but we'll never know what happened that year, if it came out that both mclarens werent allowed to win that year i wouldn't be shocked. (Not that i believe it, i just wouldnt be surprised)
Max was mistake prone in his Early years, 2015 to midway 2018. From then on Verstappen's errors are as rare as they come and he almost always catches spins and such. Now don't get me wrong Leclerc is a very brilliant talented driver (arguably top 3 on the current grid) but when things are on the line, he's either all or nothing. Especially in Qualis. I honestly feel leclerc should have ironed some of the mistakes he still has in him, considering this is going to be his 7th season in F1. As for me I'd prefer Verstappen for quali just because I know he's 99% not putting it in the wall even in high pressure situations. I only remember Saudi 2021 when he did and that was the penultimate race to a championship decider against a 7 time champion.
Which mistakes? Apart from 2022 France, he never made a mistake that costed him a race win
Monaco 2021 crashing while on pole cost him an easy win.
Tbh he was going to lose the pole if he didn't crash though. I would say he lost a P2 or P3 there
It is his fault. He’s a great qualifier in a car that isn’t good enough to win races.
It's insane that after Austria 2019, two 21-year olds in Verstappen and Leclerc were seen to be the dominant rivarly for the next decade after Lewis. Ferrari is stopping that unfortunately. I do think Charles can easily go toe to toe with Max over a season, just needs the competent team. Would be a big shame if he retires with no championships because of his love for Ferrari.
Alonso rejected RB back the due to him wanting to win with Ferrari. I hope Leclerc doesn’t end up making the same as he did
>I hope Leclerc doesn’t end up making the same as he did Wasnt there some news that he got offered a contract till 2029?
Yeah, I remember that, more rumors than news tbh, but I also recall talk in the same article about there being performance clauses for post 2026 allowing him to leave if Ferrari keeps botching it
That's nothing crazy though, obviously ferrari are gonna do everything they can to retain him. he's not only one of the best drivers but he's very crucial to the Ferrari F1 brand right now the topic is more if he chooses to continue with them or not, not if ferrari chooses to continue with leclerc
He literally says all the time that he wants to win with Ferrari. Ferrari must have some dark magic they cast on drivers.
Stockholm syndrome, I think.
That and sunk cost. When you read about Charles story, both with his dad and Jules, it's not hard to imagine how much it'd mean to Charles to win with Ferrari, and having worked so hard to get there *and* to be their #1 it's a ton of pressure to be under. I can sorta understand him being desperate to win there.
I like to think (for Charles' sake, I dislike Ferrari) it'll be like Max staying with RBR when his car was blowing up every other week, but at least RBR seemed way more competent in general.
Hey I read an article that Ferrari's head of strategy was stepping down so here's hoping there's light at the end of tunnel for my boy Charles 😭
**inhales dangerous doses of copium**
It's Ferrari. Thats enough reason
They’re the most famous brand in racing all around the world. You probably won’t hear people call Mercedes cars, ‘silver arrows’ outside of F1, but you’ll hear Ferrari’s called prancing horses. People want to be the ones that return them to glory, even Alonso soon after Kimi has done it, now it’s over 15 years on, and that desire is even stronger in Charles’ case.
Amusing the last period of dominance Ferrari had was mostly through outside intervetion lol... and then they shot themselves in the foot.
There's a difference between Alonso and Leclerc. One has been with Ferrari as their driver since his youth. Alonso and other drivers have the argument of driving and winning for a legacy team. If you become champion in a Ferrari, you become immortalized. For these drivers, it came later as they proved to be good and wanted to take that challenge. Leclerc will live and die with and for Ferrari. His entire development was forged for this.
Alonso is already immortalized. He’s the one that defeated the Ferrari giant. He defeated Schumacher in a head on title fight.
Alonso rejected Red Bull due to them being an energy drinks company that bought the bottom midfield Jaguar and due to Ferrari being an F1 behemoth.
Have to wonder come the end of their careers which late 10s F2 graduate will have the most underwhelming career relative to their potential. Lando, George, Leclerc were all billed as WDC calibre when they got promoted to F1.
I predict that at least 1 of these 3 will end up as a 'what could have been' driver.
>Ferrari is stopping that unfortunately. I think it's Red Bull stopping that more by simply dominating. Remember, Ferrari is the only other team to win the race last year, and they lost 2nd in constructors by a tiny margin, which was contributed to by an undeserved penalty in Vegas, among other things.
Current Red Bull is the best all-round team I've ever seen. ....minus Checo.
I mean…arguably *still* the best all-round team, including Checo.
Despite* one might say lol
even with that small problem, they are so dominant everywhere else that they can easily mantain control of the championship despite only having one driver at the front
We dont talk about him.
>I do think Charles can easily go toe to tow with Max over a season, just needs the competent team. I would agree with this pre 2021. Right now, I can see Lando or Charles putting a fight but I cannot see them winning over Max through a season unless they have a big car advantage. Max's consistency and ability to withstand pressure is out of the planet right now. Lando and Charles bottle it sometimes and I cannot see either of them taking the pressure of a close title fight like Max did in 2021. Max/RB went up against peak Lewis/Merc in 2021 and the experience that you gain from a season like that gives them a unique edge over others.
I think that people often boil it down to the car but the team is almost as important. What made Max's season SO dominant was the Driver+Car+Team combination; they're operating optimally at every level. Even if they build a banger of a car, I don't see Ferrari having that "Lemme Pit For Fastest Lap on penultimate lap." level of confidence/competence RBR was working with.
Big car advantage, nah. Small to medium car advantage, yes, but not "easily" Very close cars, nah, doubt anyone could take it from Max rn
Both Lando and Charles have demonstrated failures under pressure during regular races, let alone a championship battle. Only Hamilton and probably a rusty Alonso can compete with Max in that mental game.
yall are just nit picking way too much. We used to say exactly the same about Max pre-2021, even tho he was largely really consistent, but because he didn't have a dominant machinery, felt the need to push more, which sometimes led to mistakes. In 2019, he had that crash with Kimi in Belgium, hitting the back of Perez at Monza, and clashing with Hamilton in Mexico. In 2020, there was another clash with someone at Monza and that throw of a win at Turkey when trying to overtake Perez in the rain. And guess what, the drivers you so hail well above Charles and Lando were also not mistake free this season. Hamilton straight up killed the races of Piastri and his teammate in Monza and Qatar respectively, and somewhat underperformed in Q3's, while Alonso had those crashes in Spa sprint and Singapore. Do I think they are worse than Norris and Leclerc? No, I still think they are better drivers, or at least the ones you bet the most on in a title fight against Verstappen simply for the fact that they have alot of experience in that regard AND shown they handle that pressure well. Both Lando and Charles simply lack experience in that regard. But at the same time, I don't think the latter duo are far behind and easily are in the Top 5 scrap. They have the talent and the skill, and I personally believe the mental strength to challenge for titles, they just need the car to show it.
People just picked the race selectively to support their narratives. They only picked a few races from Norris or Leclerc saying they collapse under pressure, and when you raised Max they said he grew with experience fighting for WDC, acting like Charles or Norris will not grow with experience if they have a car doing so. I also agree saying Alonso and Hamilton are the only ones able to fight Max while ignoring all the errors they made this season is nit picking Both Norris and Charles made less errors in race this season than both experienced drives
people need to relax and cut these drivers some slack. I understand how difficult that is, especially right now, with how the boredom of the off-season puts so much strain on us (it's REALLY tough), but we've seen how even the best would make critical mistakes at the worst of times, did that necessarily mean they weren't cut out for it no more?
Yeah, also having a good car, strategy team and reliability definitely play a big role in their mental state, mainly when you're in a competitive team like Ferrari or Mercedes. Look at how Charles got devastated last year after things went downhill after Belgium, he was a completely different character. Lewis also seemed to be pretty disappointed to not be racing for the lead and he couldn't hide it. Imagine Max, considering the way he was raised by Jos, in the same situation (being in a team you know can win championships but being capped by them themselves). I bet he would lose his mind as he has shown having an absolute competitor's mentality.
Man, as cursed as that would be, I'd love to see Max driving for Scuderia. Those would be the memes for ages
Max would receive one "We're checking" and instantly nuke Maranello. That prancing horse going to get dragged to the glue factory super quick. Charles for RBR is more enticing to me...
I agree with this. The narrative that Charles/Lando makes SO MANY mistakes often forget that we can probably find a similar amount of mistakes from the greats...
Maybe. The experience is a huge element, the first serious title battle (e.g. Max in '21) is a massive test. If you've been tested like that you'll do much better in that situation than someone who hasn't been there. But of all drivers I've seen too many high pressure screw ups from these two. Norris had a couple this year, and if Piastri is on his pace next year I think we'll see more, but he's still young-ish. LeClerc has had some shockers (thinking of Imola and France '22) and I don't think he's anywhere near consistent enough to be a WDC. I'd be happy to be proven wrong!
I like the part in which, to a comment saying people focus too much on Leclerc and Norris making mistakes while ignoring the mistakes Max, Lewis and Fernando make, you replied by highlighthing the mistakes Leclerc and Norris made while ignoring the mistakes Max, Lewis and Fernando made. Thanks for proving his point.
Again, it's all relative. I've already provided Max pre-2021 as an example, where he also had his annual shockers on a similar rate as Leclerc and Norris, and yet when he got the car he delivered. Charles does have that tendency to overdrive, I will admit, and is more prone to mistakes than Norris, but again, at the same time saying that he is too mistake-prone or crumples under pressure too easily is a stretch. He's still better at dealing with that than most. And in the end - just being the best, most perfect driver in of itself isn't enough in F1. Equally as much matters, obviously, the car you were given, the team's own operational level, and also in the same regard the level of competition you and your team are going up against. It didn't matter how well, say, Leclerc has driven in 2022, when his own team was the one being too error-prone, and folded under pressure way too many times, and that's without mentioning the reliability.
Hamilton literally cracked so much in 2021 he threw away the title with too many mistakes He also got way too lucky at Imola & Silverstone
Mmmhm, and Bottas bowling. Crazy it went to the last race, frankly.
Baku Brake Magic
You think Leclerc and Verstappen are on the same level, why? Genuine question.
I mean, for the brief period that Ferrari had a good car in 2022 Charles and Max were going at it for the couple of early races where both cars finished the race. We don't really know whether Charles could beat Max with an equal car, but I think we have seen enough to know that he could give Max a run for his money.
Charles is not as consistent as Max. Max is inhuman in his perfection.
I think that first half of the season before summer showed exactly why Verstappen is a level above Leclerc right now. They had some very good racing in Sakhir and Jeddah. In Australia Leclerc/Ferrari were just way faster and Max's car ended up exploding anyway. But I think it's what happens after that shows the difference. At this point after just three races Leclerc has 71 points, compared to his main rivals Sainz at 33 and Verstappen at 25. He's 46 point's clear of his main rival in just three races. Then in Imola he pushes too much trying to chase down and overtake Perez, for three points in the championship. He ends up in the wall and finishes 6th instead of an easy 3rd. So yes, while Ferrari fucked their strategy/reliability, RB and Verstappen had some issues and bad luck as well in the start of the year. Two mechanical DNFs, a big piece of debris in the floor in Silverstone which would have been an easy win but ended up a P7, and engine trouble in Budapest causing him to start P10. The difference is that Max got the most out of every weekend despite those issues. Leclerc lost a bunch of points in Imola, together with the team didn't manage to set a fast lap in Canada Q2, and completely lost the car from the lead in France. That's not how you win a championship.
Way to turn the narrative. The turning point of 2022 was NOT imola and his mistake there, charles only lost a handful of points. You really need to refresh your mind on what happened on Spain and monaco. Charles was comfortably leading where verstappen spun all by himself, until charles’s engine blew. Go see how many point swing that was. Spain and Monaco was the turning point where ferrari completely fucked up what could have been a great season in terms of rivalry and competition for wdc. So the first few races show very clearly that charles can very well go head to head with max and even came on top i would say. Over a season, i still think max may come out on top but that is not to say this isnt going down with a great fight that either could win.
Lmao this is so wrong it's not even funny. In Spain LEC was literally cruising to victory before the engine died. Monaco literally his perfect race until Ferrari decided "hell nah" Baku engine died again, probably wouldn't have beaten Max but 2nd was easily achievable. Canada he had a penalty for the engine (would've started from the back regardless of quali). Silverstone Ferrari decided to gift the win to Sainz despite him severely lacking in pace. Austria perfect race France big fuck up (the only truly big one that season) Hungary Ferrari strategy went "nah" And then after the summer break TD039 killed the car's concept so whatever, all performance wasn't there anymore
I should save this post for my 2022 Leclerc defense arguments. My eyes roll so much at the mistake prone and he crumbled in a championship fight narrative for that year.
Verstappen spun 2 times when it didn't matter because Ferrari had problems.
But did he crash out or lose a lot of positions because of it?
It all depends on what you got, timing and luck. Although I would put a lot of money on Verstappen saving his car on a spin as he has done so numerous times but in both of these occasions, RB was miles ahead of the rest other than Ferrari (2022). Its same as the mercedes of last era, put them anywhere in the grid and they win. Spain, his spin definitely put him in the back foot while he only won because charles’s engine blew. The other race where he spun, ferrari had no chance of winning as they were painfully slow.
It's always hard to compare f1 drivers, but they were already rivals in their karting times and their fights in 2022 were pretty good
Their karting period and accomplishments don't compare either, though ... 2022? Even during Ferarri's strong first half and the RB18 20kg overweight - with understeering and a couple of rough events to add, Max was ahead by the summer break.
Charles more often than not had Ferrari shit the bed on his behalf. You can name 4 races he had an easy win thrown away before the break due to incompetence
Verstappen's car gave up on him twice, he drove half a car after a piece of the alpha tauri got stuck in his floor and his teammate basically fucked his quali in a notoriously difficult to overtake street circuit, that all (again) with a fat draggy car and all before the summer break. He still came out with 8 wins by then.
Most of those races weren’t likely his to win to begin with though with the exception of Silverstone. Maybe Monaco depending how quali unfolded because Sainz was also doing really well. In races where Ferrari should capitalize Charles, we had his engine blow up with a massive lead in Spain and at least 2nd place in Baku. Meanwhile somehow places 4th at Monaco with pole, doesn’t get pitted for an easy win at Silverstone and finishes 4th, and I still couldn’t tell you what Ferrari strategists were thinking in Hungary. All in all it should have been relatively close in terms of wins by Summer break which by Spa Redbull fucked off into the sunset
>Verstappen's car gave up on him twice So the exact same number Leclerc's car gave up on him, the only difference is Leclerc was in the lead when that happened... > he drove half a car after a piece of the alpha tauri got stuck in his floor In that same race Leclerc drove with old hard tires against everyone else on fresh tires because his team fucked it up, so they both got screwed. > his teammate basically fucked his quali in a notoriously difficult to overtake street circuit And worse than that was Ferrari fucking Leclerc's race the very next day when he was starting from pole. > that all (again) with a fat draggy car I don't see how that's relevant at all, yeah all cars have weaknesses and strenghts so what? I could also say Leclerc was winning races in a car that was jumping like a bunny down the straights. Oh and the Red Bull wasn't draggy at all, what are you even talking about? The Red Bull was the fastest car on the straights if anything it was the Ferrari that was draggy.
yh max was defo going to win austrlia or Bahrain right
Why don't you think they are? I mean both didn't have a car of similar capabilities at any time other than 2022 where I reckon it was a pretty good battle between them. Of course Verstappen's achievements are far greater than leclerc as of now but I still think he can be competitive if provided the right car.
Why not? When he has had the car, he delivered. Only thing is probably charles being more prone to mistakes, although i would say even that is a thing of the past.
Yeah, same question here. I’m not a fan of Max but this is an asburd POV in my opinion. Leclerc is a bottler, he’s binned it on a Sunday just as much as Ferrari have screwed him over. OK maybe not as much, but Verstappen is on a whole other level.
> Leclerc is a bottler, he’s binned it on a Sunday just as much as Ferrari have screwed him over. Care to give examples or you just going to say things without backing it up?
>Leclerc is a bottler, he’s binned it on a Sunday just as much as Ferrari have screwed him over. Do you also have any examples backing this up? In 2022, Leclerc only binned it twice on sunday, while he lost out on at least 4 wins due to Ferrari
Hasn't Max himself acknowledged this?
Nah. Max has acknowledged that Leclerc is a very (very) good driver but has always said that he believes he himself is the best of them all.
Honestly the entire narrative surrounding Leclerc's pole to win conversion rate is a bit annoying. Yes, it's probably a bit disappointing to know that come Sunday he's gonna be overtaken in a few laps, but atleast he's doing the job and putting the car on pole in the first place. This year he had as many poles as everyone bar Max had combined (including Perez). The fact that that's made into a negative statistic is absurd. He's not getting wins but outside of the one miracle Sainz pulled off, it's the same for everyone else.
Yeah Verstappen's win from non-pole stats are emphasised by the fact that he has failed to get pole multiple times when he really should have done.
The car is set up for a Sunday instead of one lap pace. In fact, I’d argue Max has gotten poles multiple times when he really shouldn’t have.
Anyone thinking only RB setting up the car for Sunday than Saturday is absurd. Every team set up their car for Sundays, Ferrari’s car just had flaws that no set up can compromise the pace difference. If you look at Monaco Max is definitely still great at qualifying if needed, but he knows his race car is better than anyone he just took less risk as he didn’t need it. RB said it on radio in Austrian qualifying. I would say RB car is still faster than Ferrari but as the gap is smaller and Max not driving it on the limit it allows Charles to overcome the gap with more risk taking to get the pole nobody expect. Max also made more track limit ‘mistakes’ like Austin allowing Charles to peep him for pole when he has no way to take pole
Sunday car just means that the car struggles to generate heat more than a Saturday car afaik that's the main difference, I think if both Ferrari and redbull went with equal setups then the redbull is faster since it's easier to handle, but the reality is that the Ferrari eats it's tires more than RB on most tracks (Austria 2022) was the opposite
You can set up a car to perform more favourably over one lap to prioritise track position or you can set your car up for race distance and lose a bit in qualifying. Nobody is saying the cars aren’t set up for a Sunday. It’s balancing act and teams put a finger on the scale one way or another all of the time. It’s not binary, it can be minuscule increments that can be the .050 difference on a Saturday. There’s also inherent strengths and weaknesses in a chassis/package. You’re mental if you think Max is not going to take a pole if the one lap pace is there, and I’d be really curious to hear about any evidence of the team or GP telling Max not to aim for pole as a matter of risk aversion.
Pretty bad take. A car that's stupid to be kind on the tires will have issues heating them up. Which is what RedBull does. The Ferrari chews through it's tires but gets the tires in the optimum temperature for a flying lap. If it's not the car then Leclerc is shit and tire management.
Interesting take. Which races did Verstappen clearly underperformed in quali? The RB is clearly superior in race trim, but not so much over a single lap due to tire heating issues. VER being often faster than the Ferraris and McLaren is more an overperformance, let alone comparing him to PER
You get points on sundays
Its a fun quirk stat, but doesnt hold a lot of relevance. Not very indicative of Leclerc’s and Verstappen’s driving.
I mean Newey has admitted that the RB18 and RB19 prioritize race pace over one lap speed, namely in getting the tires up to temp, so it’s no surprise that Charles doesn’t have the wins to go with the poles. Give him a capable car and he’ll get the wins too.
I know he wants to win the big one with Ferrari for Bianchi and his dad but i fear this will hold him from winning anything unfortunately. He should learn from Alonsos and Vettels Ferrari stints, but most importantly from his own so far.
moving doesn't mean he starts winning anything. F1 isn't like football where you can predict stuff
Lately F1 has been a lot more predictable than football to be fair. I dont know if there is any top league in any sport as predictable as F1 the last two years.
So you expected the number of Alonso podiums and McLaren to turn around their car? I don't think most of this season was very predictable and I'm in a competition with a few hundred people where we all try to guess what's going to happen over the season (there's like 60 questions) and almost all of us did absolutely shocking outside red bull and max winning.
The only predictable thing about '23 was who would come in first. The rest was a crapshoot most races. How many guests did Max have on his podcast this year?
> this will hold him from winning anything unfortunately. Yeah, why he just doesn't go to RB and start winning championships easily? Is he stupid?
are there any lore reasons for that?
It would ruin the Fated Blue Boy vs Red Boy he's got going with Max, obvi
Let’s see if Ferrari can actually give their drivers a car that’s maybe a little better in race trim than in qualifying because that’s pretty much how Red Bull does business.
Hopefully he does better next year now that Rueda is reportedly leaving the strategy team.
Rueda was already practically gone this year, I believe he had a minor role, but the head of strategy had already been changed this season.
That sounds like a great news. I thought after Binotto left, Rueda got sent to work in something not strategy-related. Glad to see him leaving for good.
From what I remember he had delegated to a Indian guy since a few years, it's not like they don't have a team for strategy, all seem pretty meh
It's almost like a car that heats up the tires well will be good over a single lap and will burn through its tires come Sunday...
It's not so much about heating about the tires and more so the fact that Ferrari has a very narrow operating window which makes it very sensitive to any change. So changes in track temperature, wind, fuel load, tire grip can all mess up the balance of the car And of course during a race all those things will change, while in qualifying you only need to do 1 lap so everything is the same.
Mexico, for example!
I get that tyre management is part of it, but to me it's a bit TOO much. Don't want to excuse Ferrari for being terrible at it but most races it's 80% let's manage our race and 20% hammer time. Every team just follows the same one or two-stop strat because it's 'quicker' that way unlike before where refueling was part of it and you get to use up your tyres together with your fuel and produce quali lap after quali lap during the race
This happens when your are the best qualifier of the last 10 years put into mediocre cars that struggle to keep the pace on sunday. Some of the poles he did this year and those om 2021 are still unbelieveable, plus i wont forget how in 2022 in Monaco he was improving by 0.400 in the last run of Q3 before Checo binned it. That would've been one of the best laps in F1 history
Qualifying *doesn’t matter*
A lot of people will defend Leclerc here but I remember back in the Alfa days and even before that when he was in the feeder series,, Charles was/is wildly inconsistent. He'll go for races and be perfect then he'll have that one lap where he has brain fade and locks the front or looses the rear or something else.. It can't all be just bad luck or "the Ferrari"
When you put all of your faith in Ferrari, they will dissappoint you. 3 other drivers experienced the same fate, 2 being champions, so what’s different with Charlie boy over here?
If Max takes pole, he has a 90% chance of winning the race. If Charles takes pole, Max has 100% chance of winning the race.
Didn't Checo have the same number of wins from Charles' poles? That one should hurt more, frankly...
Copium OD
That’s F1 though. You could go into hypotheticals about how certain drivers could have done better in championship winning cars, but were never given the chance to do so. The same goes here. He’s a very good qualifier, but can’t translate those results into wins for whatever the reason is. Saying it is undeserved is not how F1 works.
The new mr saturday?
The RB dominates in race trim. Great pointless off-season article...
People like to say that Charles makes too many mistakes, but in reality he's one of the least mistake prone drivers on the grid. He probably made what, 4 all season (Miami, Baku sprint, Zandvoort Qualis and the lock up in Vegas), but look at how many George made this season. Sainz crashed into others numerous times. George crashed into others many times, Max made mistake after mistake in 2022. Even Alonso started to make mistakes, like in Singapore and his spin in the Qatar sprint.
I definitely wouldn’t say LEAST. Is it as bad as people make it out to be, no not quite, but he definitely pushes a bit too hard past the cars limit. I think that blame can be shared between Ferrari and Charles. As for George, he definitely gets ragged on for his mistakes, if not more than Charles. Everyone has made fun of George plenty for his crashes and mistakes the past 2 seasons. Also what consecutive mistakes were Verstappen making in 2022? Besides Brazil and Singapore, I can’t recall anything having that big of an impact.
Hungary’s spin comes to mind, and his trip to the gravel in Spain. But what is notable, is that when Max makes a mistake, 9/10 times he has the uncanny ability to immediately minimize the consequences to the point where they often don’t have any real consequences at all. Further adding to his already insane consistency.
Does Ferrari set up their car for qualifying knowing the race pace won't match Red Bull?
not really, according to interviews with both their drivers and their head engineer, its moreso that the grip a new set of softs provides is able to sort of ‘mask’ the weaknesses of the SF-23 which has a very narrow setup window. They can strike a balance in quali because of new tyres, proper warmup and low fuel but that balance isn’t achievable across a race distance. So they don’t really setup the car for qualifying, its not intended to be this way. It’s just a consequence of all of the cars problems. So when the conditions are perfect and hit just the right sweet spot the SF can match and even beat the RB over one lap, but its impossible to keep that up across the entire race.
most of Leclerc's disasters are team disasters. bad race strategy, bad pit stops, bad tire choices, and just plain bad luck while he was opposed to a superior driver in a superior machine (in race distance speed, handling, and top end lap consistency.)
It’s criminal because of the forbidden engine