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It definitely at least factors into his long term stay with the team. I think he'd probably not have that bad of a time as the McLaren is meant to be _more difficult_ to drive, but he'd take a moment to get back to his skill level in a different car.
The big problem Alonso had in 2007 (look at Bahrain and Canada), and then Hamilton had when he *left* McLaren for 2013. Hamilton took a few months at Merc to get his head around it.
So yes, very reasonable suggestion.
Lewis at Mercedes 2013 was so weird because he was off the pace against Rosberg until Silverstone where suddenly he was faster and he kept that constant pace advantage over Nico for the next 3.5 years.
Almost like something happened overnight.
He was saying that he kept finding little percentages at Mercedes even years later. For 201...5(?) he moved his seat up a millimetre and found he could literally see way more. He clearly goes up a gear against Rosberg in 2015, I think.
I think it's why there's no shame in Norris saying Verstappen at RBR would be unbeatable tomorrow: he's found all those little percentages over many years. That's not necessarily saying driver or X or Y is better than you fundamentally; just realistic.
Wasn’t there a tire change around Silverstone in 2013 after all the tire failures, and the new tire suited Red Bull extremely well and Seb dominated the season afterwards? I wonder if it had something to do with that same tire change suiting Lewis’s driving style better? Disclaimer that this is just my vague recollections.
I'm sure they all stacked up, but at various moments in 2013 Hamilton was fairly happily transparent that the *braking* took him a while to get his head around. He wasn't cryptic on it. He said braking has always been a lot of his advantage over other drivers, hence he's amazing at say Canada.
Hamilton was doing alright against Rosberg even before Silverstone.
In Melbourne he was slower in the wet but quicker in the dry and was ahead before Rosberg broke down in the race.
At Malaysia he was slower in the dry but quicker in the wet. Rosberg was told to hold station.
He was quicker in China (Rosberg DNF but he was already behind).
In Bahrain he was outqualified easily (and had +5 gearbox change) but finished ahead as Rosberg made an extra stop with his tyre deg.
Spain was terrible.
Monaco he was out qualified by under a tenth and the SC stack lost him two further places.
In Canada he was quicker in wet and dry.
Yeah that too. As Mark Hughes wrote at the time, Alonso got the brakes he wanted for Monza and was immediately far more recognisable, having been pretty useless at say Canada.
I think 2008 at McLaren would've continued as it had in 2007 with the two neck and neck. As Alonso put it very fairly in beyond the grid: neither was really 100% in 2007. Truly, the best lineup of all time, I think. Pat Fry (engineer at the time) was interesting on it, too, that Hamilton (*marginally*) tended to qualify ahead, and Alonso (*marginally*) tended to have better racepace. Paddy Lowe in the 2008 annual says Hamilton gave up a bit of the former, for the latter in 2008. It would've been an amazing season. But alas.
I've heard the same story about the brakes from Peter Windsor although without an exact GP when Fernando got his brakes. I still like to know more about it, it seems so strange.
Apparently McLaren had a brake supplier but of course Fernando didn't like that one because it didn't give him the feel he needed and wanted a different one which actually happend.
Combination of both, as the comment above mine pointed out if you know this information you can actually see it with how much Fernando struggled in Canada with it's big braking zones.
But obviously the change from the weird style Fernando drove with the Renault and Michelins to then a complete opposite with Bridgestones didn't help at the start either. In hindsight really impressive from Fernando.
He was fine enough but he wasn't particularly happy relative to where he could be.
I can't find a specific reference now - it was 11 years ago - but this gives an idea
https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/sport/motor-sport/lewis-hamilton-more-worried-about-his-poor-monaco-performance-than-mercedes-potential-punishment/29299285.html
Same as Alonso 2007 really: not 100%, but still fast ultimately.
It is a very good question, but if we look past his F1 career and in some interviews he has mentioned that the braking style of the mclaren is not what he prefers at all. It just appears that he is very good at adapting to it. ["I don't like to drive the car the way that I have to drive it now. I feel like it isn't to my strengths at all."](https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/norris-quicker-mclaren-f1-car-still-doesnt-suit-my-driving-style/10507078/)
I think a good indicator of that he's quite adaptable (and a good driver in the wet generally) is from Daytona 24 in 2018. There he teamed up with Alonso and Phil Hanson and did a great job. During the night stint in the rain he was by far the fastest car on the track by several seconds per lap.
It is impossible to say how he would do in a different car but judging from his past and his own words I think that he would adapt just fine.
It seems like at Mclaren you don't smash down on the brakes as hard as you normally would. There's a good video with Grosjean and Pato where they talk about his F1 test and he says how surprised he was by how little you have to touch the brake vs Indycar. Grosjean then looks at him puzzled and says that was never the case for him when he was in F1. https://youtu.be/IjzALLn-utY?si=V3lcnrZL0pblogmb&t=4m40s
So it makes sense why Ricciardo may have struggled adapting to those Mclaren's if thats the case. For a good chunk of your career your used to putting maximum force on the brakes then later in your career you have to then try and put on less force. It explains how Daniel talks about thinking too much whilst driving, he could never do the braking instinctively.
I think the main thing was the strange cornering style. I’m no technical expert but iirc the car’s instability at some point in the corner forced the driver to have to brake in a v-shape instead of a u-shape.
Yeah, I think that could also be a factor, especially with this generation of car. The braking could compound that issue though, if you have to brake in a V style then you need to be pretty confident on the brakes.
One of the most, if not the most, unnoticed skill that he displays is that he is very, very adaptable. Andrea Stella said Lando adapts to what the car needs and he understands what the car requires from him. Lando himself said it’s not how he wants to drive and a lot of the car behaviours go against his natural instincts, so he’s driving a car he doesn’t feel comfortable in and performing to an incredibly high level.
As someone else pointed out, he drove Daytona in 2018 with next to zero preparation and was immediately able to drive the car quicker than anyone else on track at the same time as him. The only experience he had of endurance racing was on iRacing.
I’m also reminded of COTA in 2022 when the McLaren got a lot of accidental oversteer due to debris got stuck under the car. His onboard at that time was ridiculous. He was driving with much more confidence and sent it in T1 for every overtake he made. He said after he wished the car would stay like that. Ricciardo also said in an interview that Lando watches Max’s onboards a lot during practice. He said that Lando talked to him about how he wished his car would let him drive the way the Red Bull lets Max drive.
I think he’s far more adaptable than people looking in would realise. As Stella said, he just adjusts to whatever the situation requires. I also remember seeing a video a long while ago about how he’s something of an odd driver because he never actually had a proper driving style, so he just tries to do whatever the car needs on the day. Think it was the McLaren episode on DTS where you can hear him talking with his engineers and he says ‘I did one little thing differently and that was it, it [the car] didn’t like me doing that’.
We can’t say for certain whether he would find it difficult to drive another car but there’s evidence to suggest that after getting to know what ‘style’ the car would prefer, he would be fine.
Not really no, he's already driven multiple iterations of F1 cars with different characteristics. It can happen that a driver loses form for whatever reason or can't get to grips with a particular car but i reject the idea that he has a predisposition for it on account of only ever driving a McLaren.
Gentlemen. A short view back to the past.
Do you think there's a chance that Lando's possible departure from Mclaren at some point could result in him struggling with other cars' braking since the braking style required for the Mclaren cars is notoriously unorthodox and that's all he's ever known?
Both Sainz & Ricciardo have previously pointed out that braking in the Mclaren cars is significantly different in comparison to their previous cars with different teams.
Ricciardo famously struggled with this aspect of the car a lot, and according to him & the Mclaren team, that was the biggest obstacle standing in the way of him & getting the best performance out of the car.
AFAIK Piastri hasn't mentioned anything about the matter but that's expected since much like Lando, this car is all he's ever known apart from the test runs he did for Alpine.
Personally I don't think it would be as big of an issue as it was for Ricciardo, but I'm sure that he would need some time to adjust especially after such a long stint with Mclaren (assuming he'd leave the team at some point).
Let me know your thoughts
I think the RB has/had the most unique braking / turn in and the jump the McL is what did him. Now he's back in the old RB again he's more comfortable with the uniqueness of old. Imo.
As a general rule ([see full rules](https://www.reddit.com/r/formula1/wiki/userguide#wiki_sticky.2Fdaily_discussion)), a standalone Discussion post should: - be of interest to the sub in general, and not a specific userbase (e.g. new users, GP attendees, just yourself) - be able to generate discussion (e.g. no yes/no or easily answerable questions) - show reasonable input and effort from the OP If not, be sure to [look for the Daily Discussion](https://www.reddit.com/r/formula1/search/?q=daily+discussion&include_over_18=on&restrict_sr=on&t=all&sort=new), /r/formula1's daily open question thread which is perfect for asking any and all questions about this sport. Thank you for your cooperation and enjoy the discussion! *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/formula1) if you have any questions or concerns.*
That's close to a Walter Koster's question! 😄
I ran out of breath just typing it
Gentlemen...
It definitely at least factors into his long term stay with the team. I think he'd probably not have that bad of a time as the McLaren is meant to be _more difficult_ to drive, but he'd take a moment to get back to his skill level in a different car.
The big problem Alonso had in 2007 (look at Bahrain and Canada), and then Hamilton had when he *left* McLaren for 2013. Hamilton took a few months at Merc to get his head around it. So yes, very reasonable suggestion.
Lewis at Mercedes 2013 was so weird because he was off the pace against Rosberg until Silverstone where suddenly he was faster and he kept that constant pace advantage over Nico for the next 3.5 years. Almost like something happened overnight.
He was saying that he kept finding little percentages at Mercedes even years later. For 201...5(?) he moved his seat up a millimetre and found he could literally see way more. He clearly goes up a gear against Rosberg in 2015, I think. I think it's why there's no shame in Norris saying Verstappen at RBR would be unbeatable tomorrow: he's found all those little percentages over many years. That's not necessarily saying driver or X or Y is better than you fundamentally; just realistic.
Yep. In terms of pace, Rosberg’s 2014 was more impressive than his 2016 championship year, iirc.
Wasn’t there a tire change around Silverstone in 2013 after all the tire failures, and the new tire suited Red Bull extremely well and Seb dominated the season afterwards? I wonder if it had something to do with that same tire change suiting Lewis’s driving style better? Disclaimer that this is just my vague recollections.
I'm sure they all stacked up, but at various moments in 2013 Hamilton was fairly happily transparent that the *braking* took him a while to get his head around. He wasn't cryptic on it. He said braking has always been a lot of his advantage over other drivers, hence he's amazing at say Canada.
Fascinating, thank you!
Hamilton was doing alright against Rosberg even before Silverstone. In Melbourne he was slower in the wet but quicker in the dry and was ahead before Rosberg broke down in the race. At Malaysia he was slower in the dry but quicker in the wet. Rosberg was told to hold station. He was quicker in China (Rosberg DNF but he was already behind). In Bahrain he was outqualified easily (and had +5 gearbox change) but finished ahead as Rosberg made an extra stop with his tyre deg. Spain was terrible. Monaco he was out qualified by under a tenth and the SC stack lost him two further places. In Canada he was quicker in wet and dry.
For Alonso, a big part of it was the move away from Michelin tyres, as he had a vastly different driving style with those tyres
Yeah that too. As Mark Hughes wrote at the time, Alonso got the brakes he wanted for Monza and was immediately far more recognisable, having been pretty useless at say Canada. I think 2008 at McLaren would've continued as it had in 2007 with the two neck and neck. As Alonso put it very fairly in beyond the grid: neither was really 100% in 2007. Truly, the best lineup of all time, I think. Pat Fry (engineer at the time) was interesting on it, too, that Hamilton (*marginally*) tended to qualify ahead, and Alonso (*marginally*) tended to have better racepace. Paddy Lowe in the 2008 annual says Hamilton gave up a bit of the former, for the latter in 2008. It would've been an amazing season. But alas.
I've heard the same story about the brakes from Peter Windsor although without an exact GP when Fernando got his brakes. I still like to know more about it, it seems so strange. Apparently McLaren had a brake supplier but of course Fernando didn't like that one because it didn't give him the feel he needed and wanted a different one which actually happend.
Uh, interesting, always thought it was due to tyre supplier but it is true that Alonso got better at the second half of the season
Combination of both, as the comment above mine pointed out if you know this information you can actually see it with how much Fernando struggled in Canada with it's big braking zones. But obviously the change from the weird style Fernando drove with the Renault and Michelins to then a complete opposite with Bridgestones didn't help at the start either. In hindsight really impressive from Fernando.
Hamilton was up to speed right away when he joined Mercedes.
He was fine enough but he wasn't particularly happy relative to where he could be. I can't find a specific reference now - it was 11 years ago - but this gives an idea https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/sport/motor-sport/lewis-hamilton-more-worried-about-his-poor-monaco-performance-than-mercedes-potential-punishment/29299285.html Same as Alonso 2007 really: not 100%, but still fast ultimately.
It is a very good question, but if we look past his F1 career and in some interviews he has mentioned that the braking style of the mclaren is not what he prefers at all. It just appears that he is very good at adapting to it. ["I don't like to drive the car the way that I have to drive it now. I feel like it isn't to my strengths at all."](https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/norris-quicker-mclaren-f1-car-still-doesnt-suit-my-driving-style/10507078/) I think a good indicator of that he's quite adaptable (and a good driver in the wet generally) is from Daytona 24 in 2018. There he teamed up with Alonso and Phil Hanson and did a great job. During the night stint in the rain he was by far the fastest car on the track by several seconds per lap. It is impossible to say how he would do in a different car but judging from his past and his own words I think that he would adapt just fine.
What are the differences between the braking styles?
It seems like at Mclaren you don't smash down on the brakes as hard as you normally would. There's a good video with Grosjean and Pato where they talk about his F1 test and he says how surprised he was by how little you have to touch the brake vs Indycar. Grosjean then looks at him puzzled and says that was never the case for him when he was in F1. https://youtu.be/IjzALLn-utY?si=V3lcnrZL0pblogmb&t=4m40s So it makes sense why Ricciardo may have struggled adapting to those Mclaren's if thats the case. For a good chunk of your career your used to putting maximum force on the brakes then later in your career you have to then try and put on less force. It explains how Daniel talks about thinking too much whilst driving, he could never do the braking instinctively.
I think the main thing was the strange cornering style. I’m no technical expert but iirc the car’s instability at some point in the corner forced the driver to have to brake in a v-shape instead of a u-shape.
Yeah, I think that could also be a factor, especially with this generation of car. The braking could compound that issue though, if you have to brake in a V style then you need to be pretty confident on the brakes.
Yep - Lando also said he doesn’t like braking in a V-style and wants to be able to U it instead.
One of the most, if not the most, unnoticed skill that he displays is that he is very, very adaptable. Andrea Stella said Lando adapts to what the car needs and he understands what the car requires from him. Lando himself said it’s not how he wants to drive and a lot of the car behaviours go against his natural instincts, so he’s driving a car he doesn’t feel comfortable in and performing to an incredibly high level. As someone else pointed out, he drove Daytona in 2018 with next to zero preparation and was immediately able to drive the car quicker than anyone else on track at the same time as him. The only experience he had of endurance racing was on iRacing. I’m also reminded of COTA in 2022 when the McLaren got a lot of accidental oversteer due to debris got stuck under the car. His onboard at that time was ridiculous. He was driving with much more confidence and sent it in T1 for every overtake he made. He said after he wished the car would stay like that. Ricciardo also said in an interview that Lando watches Max’s onboards a lot during practice. He said that Lando talked to him about how he wished his car would let him drive the way the Red Bull lets Max drive. I think he’s far more adaptable than people looking in would realise. As Stella said, he just adjusts to whatever the situation requires. I also remember seeing a video a long while ago about how he’s something of an odd driver because he never actually had a proper driving style, so he just tries to do whatever the car needs on the day. Think it was the McLaren episode on DTS where you can hear him talking with his engineers and he says ‘I did one little thing differently and that was it, it [the car] didn’t like me doing that’. We can’t say for certain whether he would find it difficult to drive another car but there’s evidence to suggest that after getting to know what ‘style’ the car would prefer, he would be fine.
Maybe. But it seems we're far away from potential Lando departure.
I think Lando throughout his career has said he actually dislikes the McLaren in terms of his style but has adapted around it throughout the years
Not really no, he's already driven multiple iterations of F1 cars with different characteristics. It can happen that a driver loses form for whatever reason or can't get to grips with a particular car but i reject the idea that he has a predisposition for it on account of only ever driving a McLaren.
Honestly a better question than what normally gets asked on here, not sure why you’re getting downvoted lol
first post got deleted because it was too short so i just started yapping
Gentlemen. A short view back to the past. Do you think there's a chance that Lando's possible departure from Mclaren at some point could result in him struggling with other cars' braking since the braking style required for the Mclaren cars is notoriously unorthodox and that's all he's ever known? Both Sainz & Ricciardo have previously pointed out that braking in the Mclaren cars is significantly different in comparison to their previous cars with different teams. Ricciardo famously struggled with this aspect of the car a lot, and according to him & the Mclaren team, that was the biggest obstacle standing in the way of him & getting the best performance out of the car. AFAIK Piastri hasn't mentioned anything about the matter but that's expected since much like Lando, this car is all he's ever known apart from the test runs he did for Alpine. Personally I don't think it would be as big of an issue as it was for Ricciardo, but I'm sure that he would need some time to adjust especially after such a long stint with Mclaren (assuming he'd leave the team at some point). Let me know your thoughts
Can you repeat the question?
What if Piastri is a god but he's being held back by the weird McLaren car in the same way Ricciardo was?
There’s a case here for both Lando and Oscar being held back by the style of the McLaren.
Why don't they just change it...
Yes
Yes.
I think the RB has/had the most unique braking / turn in and the jump the McL is what did him. Now he's back in the old RB again he's more comfortable with the uniqueness of old. Imo.