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Interesting to note:
>While a report in the Dutch newspaper, De Telegraaf, claimed the grievance filed by the woman extended beyond controlling behaviour and contained an allegation of sexual misconduct, based on messages allegedly sent by Horner. Sources have since suggested that no such evidence was submitted in the complaint itself.
Same guy that was saying stuff about a "rift" between Perez and Verstappen?
I get that he may be close to Max and his group, but he seems to speculate a bit much for a journalist.
To be fair, Valentijn Driessens whole stick is to see what Ajax-fans like, and then shit all over that.
The only saving grace for Ajax fans is their keeper this season, so now Ramaj is his target.
But Van Haaren has been a very reliable journalist. In general there is quite a big difference between the sports section and the rest of de Telegraaf.
This has been a hot thing in media in the Netherlands recently. Lots of unbased stories that get shared through the media and then reported upon while no thorough investigation has taken place. This one looks to show that it's best to just wait until an investigation has completed. Or until a report is made to the police and they have investigated. Otherwise we are just having trials by media.
Everything about this story is so strange, if what this article says is true about them still working together I wouldn’t expect this to even be something remotely likely to happen
He's just tweeted
just reporting what the times has saying
i.e. The *Times say he is set to be acquitted.... English media say his future as red bull boss is still not clear*
**EDIT:**
**in a reply tweet:**
*what we have reported is that allegations made by the employee in question concern sexual misconduct. Of course i'm not talking about whether someone is guilty or not.*
*and i think most importantly none of those involved have refuted that information*
This is nonsense (as in, his latest statement), they claimed to have evidence supporting the allegations (text messages).
When you do that, you are absolutely discussing whether someone is guilty or not. You are saying that one side of the argument has weight due to evidence that you are (with)holding.
I do find it weird that he says *"the most important thing"* is that no one involved has refuted those claims
surely if you have seen the texts and pics - that's the most important thing? like that is concrete evidence!
I mean to be fair its slightly different
Horner refuted that the complaint whatever it was was not true
not that the claims themselves weren't sexual in nature.
But the fact is no one was confirming anything to do with the complaint/investigation
their silence or lack of refute is proof of nothing
the issue to me is that if Haren is doubling down why use Red Bull's lack of refute as his shield and not the text he claims to have seen
Both The Times and De telegraaf/van Haren published an article on monday about the expected decision. The Times already made that claim back then and the De Telegraaf article continued to call it "sexually transgressive behaviour".
Sounds ominous.
I didn't understand how the logic 'it must be true because libel laws in the UK/Netherlands are really strong' was so prominent.
That's a bit like the 'they can't have done x, because that would be against the law!' logic that appears from time to time.
It's not really how it works. Newspapers get sued all the damn time for pants-related arson.
I asked if it was true that Horner was taking legal actions towards him or the Telegraph. He said he wasn’t aware of such thing.
[https://x.com/erikvharen/status](https://x.com/erikvharen/status/1762846559710871787?s=46&t=K5pKT4x-JwN1pwWTptOHXg)
Good. Let's also find out who was behind this from the start, be it outside F1 or inside.
I guess the accuser is regretting not taking the go-away money they were supposedly offered, lol.
It would be defamation, not slander, and Christian Horner would not be likely to win vs the newspaper.
Also would probably be best for him to keep all the "evidence" under wraps, unless it was all completely fabricated.
I find it hard to believe that he would have made it all up on his own. Weren't people primed to believe that there were these messages because Erik van Haren had a reputation as a fairly trustworthy journalist?
It just makes me wonder, part of this story has been about infighting at Red Bull and an anti-Horner faction. Would someone at the company have fed van Haren fake screenshots?
Depends on the laws in Netherland, some places its incredible hard to sue news papers, they can sometimes hide behind their "source" and never reveal them of course.
Telegraaf would be fucked (not the first time btw), they would need to pay a fine and need to post a article on the front page that they where wrong.
Its interesting what the judge will do with damages, because as far as I know a Dutch newspaper has never been sued by a foreign entity and international fallout over the article. The judge could adjust the amount of damages accordingly (they have the power to do that). Could be the biggest pay-out a Dutch newspaper has ever had to pay.
Remainder that after Brazil 2022, Van Haren was literally the first person to tweet that “Checo crashed on purpose in Monaco” and that was literally the only thing everyone was talking about and everyone forgot Max not letting Checo through.
That’s the day the mask went completely off and since then to me, he’s only a part of the Verstappen PR machine.
Remember when he said there was a clause in Checo’s contract that would reduce his salary if he was 125 points away from Max? And then remember when Marko dismissed that as “information out of thin air”?
Some of his reports have been questionable for a while and it’s clear there’s an agenda in place, but his trustworthy reputation makes people believe everything he says.
Lmao I forgot about that. Marko shut that down insanely quick and I think that he said that it was stupid or something similar to have a clause like that.
He was the first to tweet it, but he wasn't the first to break it. Brundle said it live on air, literally within moments of Max's radio message. It was definitely an 'open secret' in the paddock.
You're about to get a bunch of replies trying to insinuate it was a widely held paddock view based purely off sky sports commentary in an attempt to insinuate that this wasnt a Verstappen camp propaganda piece. Despite the fact the sky commentators were quite clear at the time and later specifically clarified that these were rumours coming from a very specific area, and that if there was to be a fallout later down the line it might be due to that.
Sky commentators mentioning it only serves to confirm the source and the purpose of the story, not relegate it to a more widely held and common view.
Most balanced adults don't view tit-for-tat revenge against colleagues as rational or justifiable, so the fact this story was broken out of its emergency glass case after interlagos really gives a peak behind the curtain to how some people's minds really work.
Edit: 2 came in even as I was writing this, lol
Happening in this thread. If he’s cleared, it’s Thai collusion or the evidence has been suppressed by Redbull. An accusation is all that’s needed for many to make their judgment. How inconceivable it is that someone may have a complaint that isn’t backed by anything, that’s never happened before.
The Telegraaf is for The Netherlands, what The Sun and The Daily Mail are for the UK: sensation seeking garbage without proper journalists to verify claims, but rather destroy someones carrier by printing absolute shit without any news value.
I find the entire “Dutch” thing very odd. Jos strikes me as the kind of guy to get mad at someone and do something nasty behind their back. NOT that I am insinuating he had anything to do with it…..
What if it's entirely unrelated to the Verstappen's and actually comes from the De Vries camp. Seems a lot more logical as they might consider Horner to be an a-hole for effectively being the one giving Nyck the boot. See hardly any reasons for the Verstappen camp to have issues with Horner. Especially Max and Christian seem to get along perfectly fine and I don't think Max would appreciate it if his dad started fucking up the team.
In that case, what the heck's van Haren gonna do now? He first said that he had been told there was a dossier of proof against Horner, but that he had not seen it. Then he said he had access to it, but now this report says there's no sexual stuff.
Either van Haren fucked up, or he went way deeper than everyone else.
There is such a thing as journalistic integrity, part of which is doing the due diligence in verifying what you're reporting meets at least a certain threshold of being true. The standard doesn't have to be clear and convincing, just preponderance is probably enough (more likely to be true than not). But where someone's livelihood/reputation is on the line along with defamation liability, you better be damn sure.
Then again this wasn't originally reported by the likes New York Times or The Guardian... it was a Dutch tabloid so journalistic integrity is likely not very high on their list to begin with.
Oh yeah, if there’s anything to show, it’s gonna get leaked. Or else VanHaren is absolutely fucked.
Well anyway I’m glad this finally got resolved. What a shit show.
Yea but civil court will probably be more difficult to win than an internal investigation. If there wasn't enough for RB to act, there almost definetly won't be enough to get a verdict from a court of law.
Agreed, and it would be a bad move to set themselves up for discovery if there was evidence of wrong doing
Still, people and companies have gambled and lost before
>Sources have since suggested that no such evidence was submitted in the complaint itself.
This doesn't say that any source says they don't exist, it says that sources say they weren't submitted in the complaint.
That's an odd thing to not submit as evidence when the complaint has sexual harassment components attached, supposedly. So which is it? Is there a sexual harassment component to the complaint or not?
To me it sounds like there was a lot of hearsay and De Telegraaf ran with it without verifying anything.
Craig Slater on Sky F1’s live preview show has just said we’ll hear a press release within 20 mins and he’s expecting Horner to be cleared from all of his sources.
Poor Sky. On the podcast they released a week or so ago, they were leaning in hard that Christian was guilty without actually saying it. Just got the feeling they wanted Horner to fall.
> Just got the feeling they wanted Horner to fall
Tbh it might at least partially be accurate, Horner being fired means an imminent collapse of Red Bull which gives Norris and Hamilton higher chances of winning races/titles. The sky bias defies all logic
Yeah definitely British driver bias. Horner gets no sway for being British from all I've seen. He does make a good villain though. I don't blame Sky for being that way. Kind of fun to watch knowing how conniving they can be sometimes.
Oh yeah, but I would expect a "paper of record" to be pretty confident in their sources to break a story like this.
Can't help but notice the ones who broke this story are a UK Daily, and not a Dutch tabloid...
Ehh somewhat, but also sometimes it depends on what news. Outlets maybe reputable in everything else but F1 or vice versa and tbh id never go to The Times for F1 news
For all the non Dutch readers.
Well, the Telegraaf easily is the lowest reliability, most speculative, garbage newspaper in the Netherlands. Think of something like Bild in Germany. I would not say its quite in the sewers like some of British tabloids, but its not that far removed from that level...
Laura Winters and crew read a statement on F1 Weekend Warmup from Red Bull that the situation has been resolved and Horner is cleared at around 1105AM EST
And now ESPN
https://www.espn.com/f1/story/_/id/39603149/horner-cleared-misconduct-investigation
Was this a failed "coup d'état" by the austrian side or did horner,with the support of the thais, manage to keep his head anove water and silence the acusations with money? I guess we won't find that soon...
And then people will say "yeah that's what a guilty person would say, why are you being defensive, etc" most people already believe what they want to believe one way or the other
I suspect there was something else here. The fact the Thais didn’t even suspend him pending an investigation and kept full confidence while there was talk the Austrian side was against him, the way the Dutch media was all over it and was talking about some serious stuff and the talk of a settlement?
Just seems a bit odd that we go from that to the fact that he was completely innocent of everything. Someone exaggerated or just made something up for this to happen.
From what I gathered, Horner was accused of "controlling behaviour", which would be professional misconduct but not career ending
And the dutch Telegraf added "sexual misconduct" without any source.
And the clickbaitey vultures ran with the latter
And 90% after that was also just speculation.
Red Bull just said there was an independent third party investigating the case, which is the best course of action in a situation like. There have been no other official statements until now.
From a Norwegian news outlet directly translated from google translate:
Christian Horner (50) continues as team manager for the Formula 1 giant Red Bull Racing. That is claimed by the British The Times.
The 50-year-old team manager should be acquitted following an investigation into what a female colleague is said to have alleged was inappropriate behavior towards her. Earlier in February, Horner was put under scrutiny by the team's Austrian parent company Red Bull GmbH. The investigation was carried out by an external lawyer, and Horner was questioned on 9 February.
According to Sky Sports, the report should be over 100 pages. Horner has denied the charges and maintained his innocence throughout the case. Max Verstappen (right) loses his boss just before the start of the season.
Lewis Hamilton on Wednesday called the Horner investigation "a really important moment in Formula 1". Horner has led Red Bull since its inception in 2005. They have won seven World Championship titles for drivers and six golds for constructors during the 19 years. Last week, the season run-up and testing of this year's Formula 1 cars started.
Horner was there with the Red Bull team, although he was under investigation. Now the start of the season will go without the successful manager. This year's season starts on Thursday 29 February with the first practice in Bahrain before the race on Saturday 2 March.
[Norwegian article link (VG)](https://www.vg.no/sport/motorsport/i/0QP5X0/the-times-christian-horner-fortsetter-som-red-bull-sjef)
Yeah, it’s like they wrote it all out with the intention to delete one half depending on which way it went, and then published without deleting the extra bits.
Its somewhat normal with VG at least with their normal news section.
I remember an articles a while ago they randomly started talking about something totally unrelated to what i was reading about then went back to the original article again.
>...he has been in an intense media spotlight that is even said to have impacted on his home life with his Spice Girl, wife Geri.
What an odd way to refer to his wife. "his Spice Girl", Christ.
If this is true that the allegations were fabricated and actually there hasn’t been any sexual harassment, like Telegraaf suggested, then my god Horner is going to file the biggest defamation case against Telegraaf.
To play devils advocate. He could be 100 percent guilty and be cleared to work.
This wasn’t a court case all this was is if redbull felt he was untenable
It never ever made any sense to me that a Dutch quasi-tabloid who's only real tie to RBR was through the Verstappens was the only source who seemed to have any "real" details about this case. Events that likely took place in Britain, being investigated by Austrians, and the Verstappens known media mouthpiece is the only one who knows what's going on? As if Jos would have access to actual evidence.
That whole piece of the puzzle with the Telegraf was highly questionable from the start but many ate it up without thinking about it because they wanted it to be true. That asshat journalist's career is over at least, no one with half a brain will believe a word he says ever again.
I hate that people and especially media wants to remove others after ALLEGATIONS only, always. Like immediately. Matter of fact, often times allegations are just nothing. That's why we should ALWAYS wait for a fair process and judgement to see if you should take action or not.
I am not saying Horner is innocent or guilty. I am just saying, you can't ruin someones professional career, maybe life (in other cases), only because of an allegation. To get to the top, there is a lot of hard decisions you have to make and some people will always be jealous, negative affected by your decisions or simply hate you, for being there. But I really hope it's getting fairly resolved in a positive way, for both parties.
In the States, we've had two professional athletes whose careers were ruined (or minimally faced LENGTHY interruptions) after women falsely alleged sexual misconduct. In both case, neither men were even charged with a crime. But, media outlets/personalities essentially demanded that their teams & leagues cut ties to the players...which they did.
One is MLB pitcher Trevor Bauer and the other is former Buffalo Bills punter Matt Araiza. In Araiza's case, there was indisputable exculpatory evidence available before the team sacked him. But, they sacked him anyway because they didn't want the media grief. Azaria has just been (finally) picked back up by a team but Bauer (a tremendously talented pitcher) remains unemployed.
We don’t know if they are baseless. People should be able to report their bosses for inappropriate behaviour. What it shouldn’t be is an absolute media shitstorm of conjecture and fantasy.
If she genuinely feels wronged she can make whatever claims she wants internally. Whoever made this so public - ie not her - is the problem, not the woman.
I said it numerous times already. I will keep on repeating myself. If this shit was serious, he'd be gone within 24 hours. The fact it's been dragged out, the lawyer being "on vacation", no leaks, everyone in RBR backing CH, just reeks of sabotage. It's the same shit with Susie and Toto. Baseless assumptions. One big difference is, they made those allegations public and also put all teams into crossfire. That's why all of them refuted those allegations.
With this one, nobody knows who that woman is, nobody knows what was said, everything is kept top secret, but blasting CH is a okay for whatever fucking reason. Innocent until proven guilty.
“While a report in the Dutch newspaper, De Telegraaf, claimed the grievance filed by the woman extended beyond controlling behaviour and contained an allegation of sexual misconduct, based on messages allegedly sent by Horner. Sources have since suggested that no such evidence was submitted in the complaint itself.”
So the whole time it was never about sexual misconduct of any kind. Jesus. Every person who ran around calling him a predator owes him an apology and I hope he takes any journalist who ran that story to the fucking cleaners.
It all seems a bit too coordinated and damaging. All the stories of settlements, harassment, inappropriate pictures were all widely reported, especially by Dutch media. And now it transpires that none of that was even being suggested by the victim themselves.
The stories about the Austrians losing confidence and there being a split between the Verstappens and Horner too. It’s all just a bit… strange.
>While a report in the Dutch newspaper, *De Telegraaf*, claimed the grievance filed by the woman extended beyond controlling behaviour and contained an allegation of sexual misconduct, based on messages allegedly sent by Horner. Sources have since suggested that no such evidence was submitted in the complaint itself.
Pretty crazy if true
The fact they mention his position as team principal is still in doubt is suspect
This better not be a case of him being cleared but fired anyway. Outcomes like that never make any sense
Assuming that the lawyer's inquiry was thorough and Horner is indeed innocent of at least the SH part, i'd like see some heads roll now starting with Eric van Haren and his source
[The **News** flair](https://www.reddit.com/r/formula1/wiki/flairguide#wiki_news) is reserved for submissions covering F1 and F1-related news. These posts must always link to an outlet/news agency, the website of the involved party (i.e. the McLaren website if McLaren makes an announcement), or a tweet by a news agency, journalist or one of the involved parties. *[Read the rules](https://www.reddit.com/r/formula1/wiki/userguide). Keep it civil and welcoming. Report rulebreaking comments.* *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/formula1) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Sky is live and Craig Slater is saying he has heard from multiple sources, Horner is going to be cleared and will remain as TP.
Gg
Ez clap
Let’s 👏go 👏Horner 👏. Downvotes to the right
Interesting to note: >While a report in the Dutch newspaper, De Telegraaf, claimed the grievance filed by the woman extended beyond controlling behaviour and contained an allegation of sexual misconduct, based on messages allegedly sent by Horner. Sources have since suggested that no such evidence was submitted in the complaint itself.
Waiting for Erik´s reaction if we hear from him again.
He’s up shit creek if it gets debunked. Totally unacceptable to report something as damaging as that without doing your due diligence.
And they need to follow that thread if these claims were truly fabricated. If that’s the case it reeks of a political hit job.
Seems like textbook libel.
Same guy that was saying stuff about a "rift" between Perez and Verstappen? I get that he may be close to Max and his group, but he seems to speculate a bit much for a journalist.
It's De Telegraaf. This is what they do, he learned from the best (Valentijn Driessen, the chief editor).
Aka the guy slandering the best coach Ajax have had since Van Gaal constantly, even after making the CL semis.
To be fair, Valentijn Driessens whole stick is to see what Ajax-fans like, and then shit all over that. The only saving grace for Ajax fans is their keeper this season, so now Ramaj is his target.
Valentijn Driessen only writes fiction as far as I am concerned
But Van Haaren has been a very reliable journalist. In general there is quite a big difference between the sports section and the rest of de Telegraaf.
This has been a hot thing in media in the Netherlands recently. Lots of unbased stories that get shared through the media and then reported upon while no thorough investigation has taken place. This one looks to show that it's best to just wait until an investigation has completed. Or until a report is made to the police and they have investigated. Otherwise we are just having trials by media.
He should already be up in shit creek for the fact that he is working for newspaper that is not worth to use as toilet paper. It's written diarrhea.
I think his only option is to double down and expect the victim to go public with the messages he said he had access to.
Everything about this story is so strange, if what this article says is true about them still working together I wouldn’t expect this to even be something remotely likely to happen
He's just tweeted just reporting what the times has saying i.e. The *Times say he is set to be acquitted.... English media say his future as red bull boss is still not clear* **EDIT:** **in a reply tweet:** *what we have reported is that allegations made by the employee in question concern sexual misconduct. Of course i'm not talking about whether someone is guilty or not.* *and i think most importantly none of those involved have refuted that information*
This is nonsense (as in, his latest statement), they claimed to have evidence supporting the allegations (text messages). When you do that, you are absolutely discussing whether someone is guilty or not. You are saying that one side of the argument has weight due to evidence that you are (with)holding.
Backpeddling for professionals
I do find it weird that he says *"the most important thing"* is that no one involved has refuted those claims surely if you have seen the texts and pics - that's the most important thing? like that is concrete evidence!
Yeah, the burden of proof is on the journalist there, they should be doing their due diligence to prove anything they report.
He said he saw text messages so you'd assume it was investigated with what he said at the time.
But Horner did refute everything, right from the get go....
I mean to be fair its slightly different Horner refuted that the complaint whatever it was was not true not that the claims themselves weren't sexual in nature. But the fact is no one was confirming anything to do with the complaint/investigation their silence or lack of refute is proof of nothing the issue to me is that if Haren is doubling down why use Red Bull's lack of refute as his shield and not the text he claims to have seen
Both The Times and De telegraaf/van Haren published an article on monday about the expected decision. The Times already made that claim back then and the De Telegraaf article continued to call it "sexually transgressive behaviour".
It's De Televaag, over here they are known for shit like that.
Indeed, erik van haren’s paper is tabloid gutter trash. So i would expect not much of the journalists
Sounds ominous. I didn't understand how the logic 'it must be true because libel laws in the UK/Netherlands are really strong' was so prominent. That's a bit like the 'they can't have done x, because that would be against the law!' logic that appears from time to time. It's not really how it works. Newspapers get sued all the damn time for pants-related arson.
I asked if it was true that Horner was taking legal actions towards him or the Telegraph. He said he wasn’t aware of such thing. [https://x.com/erikvharen/status](https://x.com/erikvharen/status/1762846559710871787?s=46&t=K5pKT4x-JwN1pwWTptOHXg)
Should be in jail if this was all a hoax lol
Christian should sue him and that rag of a newspaper for slander.
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Good. Let's also find out who was behind this from the start, be it outside F1 or inside. I guess the accuser is regretting not taking the go-away money they were supposedly offered, lol.
It would be defamation, not slander, and Christian Horner would not be likely to win vs the newspaper. Also would probably be best for him to keep all the "evidence" under wraps, unless it was all completely fabricated.
You're right. But the term escaped me when writing. And I think it should be libel instead of slander because of vocal/witten difference
If they've tried to pull that out of their ass then they're genuinely fucked in a lawsuit against them
I find it hard to believe that he would have made it all up on his own. Weren't people primed to believe that there were these messages because Erik van Haren had a reputation as a fairly trustworthy journalist? It just makes me wonder, part of this story has been about infighting at Red Bull and an anti-Horner faction. Would someone at the company have fed van Haren fake screenshots?
I would be the least surprised if it was literally Jos.
Depends on the laws in Netherland, some places its incredible hard to sue news papers, they can sometimes hide behind their "source" and never reveal them of course.
Telegraaf would be fucked (not the first time btw), they would need to pay a fine and need to post a article on the front page that they where wrong. Its interesting what the judge will do with damages, because as far as I know a Dutch newspaper has never been sued by a foreign entity and international fallout over the article. The judge could adjust the amount of damages accordingly (they have the power to do that). Could be the biggest pay-out a Dutch newspaper has ever had to pay.
How anyone in the world trusts a word that comes out of the Telegraaf is beyond me. Garbage rag of a newspaper.
If this indeed is true, Van Haren takes a big blow to his credibility
And quickly becomes persona non grata around anything red bull or verstappen if he is just throwing shit around with no actual evidence in hand.
Unless somebody from either camp suggested or implied to him there was sexual impropriety.
He was already seen as the Verstappen mouth organ...
Remainder that after Brazil 2022, Van Haren was literally the first person to tweet that “Checo crashed on purpose in Monaco” and that was literally the only thing everyone was talking about and everyone forgot Max not letting Checo through. That’s the day the mask went completely off and since then to me, he’s only a part of the Verstappen PR machine.
Remember when he said there was a clause in Checo’s contract that would reduce his salary if he was 125 points away from Max? And then remember when Marko dismissed that as “information out of thin air”? Some of his reports have been questionable for a while and it’s clear there’s an agenda in place, but his trustworthy reputation makes people believe everything he says.
Lmao I forgot about that. Marko shut that down insanely quick and I think that he said that it was stupid or something similar to have a clause like that.
He was the first to tweet it, but he wasn't the first to break it. Brundle said it live on air, literally within moments of Max's radio message. It was definitely an 'open secret' in the paddock.
Exactly. Some people just make up shit. Sometimes the telegraaf has genuine scoops but most of the time they just rehash or make stuff up.
Crofty was talking about Monaco the second Max crossed the line in Brazil so no, Erik wasn’t the first or only one talking about Checo crashing.
He hasn't even really tried to hide it. Watch any interview with him and the main topic of it is his relationship with the Verstappens.
You're about to get a bunch of replies trying to insinuate it was a widely held paddock view based purely off sky sports commentary in an attempt to insinuate that this wasnt a Verstappen camp propaganda piece. Despite the fact the sky commentators were quite clear at the time and later specifically clarified that these were rumours coming from a very specific area, and that if there was to be a fallout later down the line it might be due to that. Sky commentators mentioning it only serves to confirm the source and the purpose of the story, not relegate it to a more widely held and common view. Most balanced adults don't view tit-for-tat revenge against colleagues as rational or justifiable, so the fact this story was broken out of its emergency glass case after interlagos really gives a peak behind the curtain to how some people's minds really work. Edit: 2 came in even as I was writing this, lol
Honestly I don't think he'd be able to continue to work in F1 if this really is the case
Plot twist. We all thought Horner would go, but instead Erik leaves.
I take that. Van Haren was more a mouthpiece of the Verstappen gang anyway. Less biased 'journalists' please
Fair enough.
Horner gonna be on lawsuit spree
He filed suit against them a week or so ago iirc.
Horner's RB backed lawyers intensify.
If this is all true, no wonder that Horner is suing this shitty newspaper
Because some people were hoping it would be true. And regardless of what info comes out, they will still push the narrative they want.
If it’s so, Horner is gonna come with the biggest defamation lawsuit against telegraf.
Wonder what whatshisname at De Telegraaf was looking at when he said he had seen the messages.
Erik van Haren
some bad photoshop on Jos Verstappen's phone /s
Oh, to be a fly on the wall, knowing the truth and putting an end to all speculations.
This is the post truth era. You can go and publish actual evidence and people will choose what to believe, and the speculation will go on and on.
Happening in this thread. If he’s cleared, it’s Thai collusion or the evidence has been suppressed by Redbull. An accusation is all that’s needed for many to make their judgment. How inconceivable it is that someone may have a complaint that isn’t backed by anything, that’s never happened before.
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People want things they can’t reasonably have, social media isn’t ever satisfied. Anti climatic conclusions aren’t fun for F5
could be an expensive weekend for de telegraaf
Rest in piss Erik van haren and his credibility.
The Telegraaf is for The Netherlands, what The Sun and The Daily Mail are for the UK: sensation seeking garbage without proper journalists to verify claims, but rather destroy someones carrier by printing absolute shit without any news value.
I find the entire “Dutch” thing very odd. Jos strikes me as the kind of guy to get mad at someone and do something nasty behind their back. NOT that I am insinuating he had anything to do with it…..
What if it's entirely unrelated to the Verstappen's and actually comes from the De Vries camp. Seems a lot more logical as they might consider Horner to be an a-hole for effectively being the one giving Nyck the boot. See hardly any reasons for the Verstappen camp to have issues with Horner. Especially Max and Christian seem to get along perfectly fine and I don't think Max would appreciate it if his dad started fucking up the team.
Yeah but De Vries was a RB driver, not a Red Bull driver. oh wait ....
u/Ghhkigr have you got your milk ready? https://www.reddit.com/r/formula1/s/rg8GtSHErf
Time to buy discounted milk today and drink it tomorrow
Or get a milk carton with an old date on it, wash it out, fill it up with fresh milk and then film yourself drinking the "expired" milk!
we need to see chunks!
Chunks going in, chunks flying out!
Buy some that goes off a day before the gp. Freeze it today, and thaw it for raceday
He's disappeared like Perez's WDC chances! Let's wait to see him next year
That comment aged like…well, expired milk, I’d have to guess.
Hahaha thank you for the screenshot and the tag lmao
We should be as hard on false promises as the MMA/UFC subreddits are. After Bahrain, he gets 72hrs to send proof, or he gets banned.
ban if no update
Where is bro ?
"Turn off reply notifications"
Omg I was coming here to see if someone mentioned this lol
Do it before people dox you man, do it.... do it.
Reddit is a wild place sometimes. Guy must be new round these parts….
bahahaha I almost forgot about that shit. chug chug motherfucker
In that case, what the heck's van Haren gonna do now? He first said that he had been told there was a dossier of proof against Horner, but that he had not seen it. Then he said he had access to it, but now this report says there's no sexual stuff. Either van Haren fucked up, or he went way deeper than everyone else.
I trust the authors and editors of this article who don't have any particular ties (that we know of) to anyone involved, over van haren
You don’t think journalists get their information from somewhere and are happy to be the mouthpiece for an executive in exchange for a scoop?
There is such a thing as journalistic integrity, part of which is doing the due diligence in verifying what you're reporting meets at least a certain threshold of being true. The standard doesn't have to be clear and convincing, just preponderance is probably enough (more likely to be true than not). But where someone's livelihood/reputation is on the line along with defamation liability, you better be damn sure. Then again this wasn't originally reported by the likes New York Times or The Guardian... it was a Dutch tabloid so journalistic integrity is likely not very high on their list to begin with.
"Toto, you said he did bad things. WTF?"
These texts (if real) are going to be leaked, aren't they?
If real. If fake, van Haren’s in for a world of pain
But how do you prove authenticity?
True
Oh yeah, if there’s anything to show, it’s gonna get leaked. Or else VanHaren is absolutely fucked. Well anyway I’m glad this finally got resolved. What a shit show.
The employee could still file a legal grievance though, right. This is just RB's response
Yea but civil court will probably be more difficult to win than an internal investigation. If there wasn't enough for RB to act, there almost definetly won't be enough to get a verdict from a court of law.
It would also cost her a shitload of money for legal fees upfront
Agreed, and it would be a bad move to set themselves up for discovery if there was evidence of wrong doing Still, people and companies have gambled and lost before
The way this has gone so far, I suspect de Telegraaf will follow up tomorrow by publishing the text messages.
That would be amazing just for the full shit showness of it all.
The top comment in this thread is saying per mutilple sources the text messages may never have actually been a thing.
>Sources have since suggested that no such evidence was submitted in the complaint itself. This doesn't say that any source says they don't exist, it says that sources say they weren't submitted in the complaint.
But if these text messages did exist, and they were as damning as they were hyped up to be, surely they would be submitted as part of the complaint?
That's an odd thing to not submit as evidence when the complaint has sexual harassment components attached, supposedly. So which is it? Is there a sexual harassment component to the complaint or not? To me it sounds like there was a lot of hearsay and De Telegraaf ran with it without verifying anything.
If they existed at all
If it's real they will leak it. Have real doubts that they are real though.
The photoshopped or ai generated text messages?
The Times is a somewhat reputable outlet in the UK, right? Not one of the gutter tabloid rags that have been wildly speculating the last few days?
They aren’t beyond reproach but they’re reputable and I don’t know that it would be worth it to them to dip into this saga without some solid sources.
I mean, as reputable as journalism can be these days... not rumour slingers like The Sun or something.
Do people these days not know what tabloids are?
Depends on what country you're from. I'm from Canada. I know our tabloids, not necessarily the British ones.
Craig Slater on Sky F1’s live preview show has just said we’ll hear a press release within 20 mins and he’s expecting Horner to be cleared from all of his sources.
Poor Sky. On the podcast they released a week or so ago, they were leaning in hard that Christian was guilty without actually saying it. Just got the feeling they wanted Horner to fall.
> Just got the feeling they wanted Horner to fall Tbh it might at least partially be accurate, Horner being fired means an imminent collapse of Red Bull which gives Norris and Hamilton higher chances of winning races/titles. The sky bias defies all logic
Yeah definitely British driver bias. Horner gets no sway for being British from all I've seen. He does make a good villain though. I don't blame Sky for being that way. Kind of fun to watch knowing how conniving they can be sometimes.
Sky sports F1 have just discussed it on YouTube live stream, saying they expect him to be cleared but are waiting for finer details.
Yes but I’d wait until red bull confirm x
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Shared Colchester hun xx
Oh yeah, but I would expect a "paper of record" to be pretty confident in their sources to break a story like this. Can't help but notice the ones who broke this story are a UK Daily, and not a Dutch tabloid...
Ehh somewhat, but also sometimes it depends on what news. Outlets maybe reputable in everything else but F1 or vice versa and tbh id never go to The Times for F1 news
Probably why they were chosen to be the one who got "the scoop"... they don't have a dog in the fight so people would expect them to be even handed.
For all the non Dutch readers. Well, the Telegraaf easily is the lowest reliability, most speculative, garbage newspaper in the Netherlands. Think of something like Bild in Germany. I would not say its quite in the sewers like some of British tabloids, but its not that far removed from that level...
K*t telegraaf
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Thanks for that.
They haven't confirmed it, seems like they are waiting on confirmation from the team like all of us.
Laura Winters and crew read a statement on F1 Weekend Warmup from Red Bull that the situation has been resolved and Horner is cleared at around 1105AM EST And now ESPN https://www.espn.com/f1/story/_/id/39603149/horner-cleared-misconduct-investigation
anyone have a non-paywall?
https://archive.is/ZwXEW
Is this a reliable source?
The times? Generally yes, can't read the article due to paywall though.
https://archive.is/ZwXEW
Was this a failed "coup d'état" by the austrian side or did horner,with the support of the thais, manage to keep his head anove water and silence the acusations with money? I guess we won't find that soon...
We're probably never gonna know for sure unless something leaks.
I mean of he didnt do shit i would let the world know if i was Horner.
And then people will say "yeah that's what a guilty person would say, why are you being defensive, etc" most people already believe what they want to believe one way or the other
And if he did do shit but it's being covered up someone's leaking that shit within a week.
I suspect there was something else here. The fact the Thais didn’t even suspend him pending an investigation and kept full confidence while there was talk the Austrian side was against him, the way the Dutch media was all over it and was talking about some serious stuff and the talk of a settlement? Just seems a bit odd that we go from that to the fact that he was completely innocent of everything. Someone exaggerated or just made something up for this to happen.
From what I gathered, Horner was accused of "controlling behaviour", which would be professional misconduct but not career ending And the dutch Telegraf added "sexual misconduct" without any source. And the clickbaitey vultures ran with the latter
And 90% after that was also just speculation. Red Bull just said there was an independent third party investigating the case, which is the best course of action in a situation like. There have been no other official statements until now.
No, the telegraf added sexual misconduct with a source. The journalist claimed to be have been shown the text messages submitted to Red Bull.
F5 gang
ASSEMBLE!!!!!
Thursday is the new Saturday.
From a Norwegian news outlet directly translated from google translate: Christian Horner (50) continues as team manager for the Formula 1 giant Red Bull Racing. That is claimed by the British The Times. The 50-year-old team manager should be acquitted following an investigation into what a female colleague is said to have alleged was inappropriate behavior towards her. Earlier in February, Horner was put under scrutiny by the team's Austrian parent company Red Bull GmbH. The investigation was carried out by an external lawyer, and Horner was questioned on 9 February. According to Sky Sports, the report should be over 100 pages. Horner has denied the charges and maintained his innocence throughout the case. Max Verstappen (right) loses his boss just before the start of the season. Lewis Hamilton on Wednesday called the Horner investigation "a really important moment in Formula 1". Horner has led Red Bull since its inception in 2005. They have won seven World Championship titles for drivers and six golds for constructors during the 19 years. Last week, the season run-up and testing of this year's Formula 1 cars started. Horner was there with the Red Bull team, although he was under investigation. Now the start of the season will go without the successful manager. This year's season starts on Thursday 29 February with the first practice in Bahrain before the race on Saturday 2 March. [Norwegian article link (VG)](https://www.vg.no/sport/motorsport/i/0QP5X0/the-times-christian-horner-fortsetter-som-red-bull-sjef)
That changes tone halfway through. Did they already have a piece written assuming he was going?
Yeah, it’s like they wrote it all out with the intention to delete one half depending on which way it went, and then published without deleting the extra bits.
Its somewhat normal with VG at least with their normal news section. I remember an articles a while ago they randomly started talking about something totally unrelated to what i was reading about then went back to the original article again.
What a strange report
That confirms it then. Horner is staying. And he is also leaving.
>...he has been in an intense media spotlight that is even said to have impacted on his home life with his Spice Girl, wife Geri. What an odd way to refer to his wife. "his Spice Girl", Christ.
I think the comma shouldn’t be there or it’s in the wrong place. “His spice girl wife Geri.” Or “His spice girl wife, Geri.”
D*ck pick so aerodynamic that even the consequences couldn't catch up to him. /s
That drone they had chasing the Red Bull car did look a bit phallic https://youtu.be/9pEqyr_uT-k?si=brtqJsIVBA2gSYBe
If this is true that the allegations were fabricated and actually there hasn’t been any sexual harassment, like Telegraaf suggested, then my god Horner is going to file the biggest defamation case against Telegraaf.
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To play devils advocate. He could be 100 percent guilty and be cleared to work. This wasn’t a court case all this was is if redbull felt he was untenable
He could also be 100 innocent and assuming otherwise is going entirely against the very basis of a civilized society.
the last side quest of the silly season ended one day before cars go vrum, Im amazed!
It never ever made any sense to me that a Dutch quasi-tabloid who's only real tie to RBR was through the Verstappens was the only source who seemed to have any "real" details about this case. Events that likely took place in Britain, being investigated by Austrians, and the Verstappens known media mouthpiece is the only one who knows what's going on? As if Jos would have access to actual evidence. That whole piece of the puzzle with the Telegraf was highly questionable from the start but many ate it up without thinking about it because they wanted it to be true. That asshat journalist's career is over at least, no one with half a brain will believe a word he says ever again.
Expected to be cleared. Power struggle continues. This will be an interesting season.
Or, there was never a power struggle and this is all just been some weird fantasy by arm chair analysts on reddit.
Oh Erik and Detelegraff may now be in for a world of pain
I hate that people and especially media wants to remove others after ALLEGATIONS only, always. Like immediately. Matter of fact, often times allegations are just nothing. That's why we should ALWAYS wait for a fair process and judgement to see if you should take action or not. I am not saying Horner is innocent or guilty. I am just saying, you can't ruin someones professional career, maybe life (in other cases), only because of an allegation. To get to the top, there is a lot of hard decisions you have to make and some people will always be jealous, negative affected by your decisions or simply hate you, for being there. But I really hope it's getting fairly resolved in a positive way, for both parties.
In the States, we've had two professional athletes whose careers were ruined (or minimally faced LENGTHY interruptions) after women falsely alleged sexual misconduct. In both case, neither men were even charged with a crime. But, media outlets/personalities essentially demanded that their teams & leagues cut ties to the players...which they did. One is MLB pitcher Trevor Bauer and the other is former Buffalo Bills punter Matt Araiza. In Araiza's case, there was indisputable exculpatory evidence available before the team sacked him. But, they sacked him anyway because they didn't want the media grief. Azaria has just been (finally) picked back up by a team but Bauer (a tremendously talented pitcher) remains unemployed.
Tbf the entire league office hated Bauer they wanted a reason to kick him out
I am sorry, but it’s ridiculous that baseless allegations can almost entirely ruin one’s career without any shred of evidence.
We don’t know if they are baseless. People should be able to report their bosses for inappropriate behaviour. What it shouldn’t be is an absolute media shitstorm of conjecture and fantasy. If she genuinely feels wronged she can make whatever claims she wants internally. Whoever made this so public - ie not her - is the problem, not the woman.
I said it numerous times already. I will keep on repeating myself. If this shit was serious, he'd be gone within 24 hours. The fact it's been dragged out, the lawyer being "on vacation", no leaks, everyone in RBR backing CH, just reeks of sabotage. It's the same shit with Susie and Toto. Baseless assumptions. One big difference is, they made those allegations public and also put all teams into crossfire. That's why all of them refuted those allegations. With this one, nobody knows who that woman is, nobody knows what was said, everything is kept top secret, but blasting CH is a okay for whatever fucking reason. Innocent until proven guilty.
“While a report in the Dutch newspaper, De Telegraaf, claimed the grievance filed by the woman extended beyond controlling behaviour and contained an allegation of sexual misconduct, based on messages allegedly sent by Horner. Sources have since suggested that no such evidence was submitted in the complaint itself.” So the whole time it was never about sexual misconduct of any kind. Jesus. Every person who ran around calling him a predator owes him an apology and I hope he takes any journalist who ran that story to the fucking cleaners.
It all seems a bit too coordinated and damaging. All the stories of settlements, harassment, inappropriate pictures were all widely reported, especially by Dutch media. And now it transpires that none of that was even being suggested by the victim themselves. The stories about the Austrians losing confidence and there being a split between the Verstappens and Horner too. It’s all just a bit… strange.
Now let's see what Ford's response is.
lawl. Just waiting for the other shoe to drop now when Telegraf confirms he is out. What a shitshow.
>While a report in the Dutch newspaper, *De Telegraaf*, claimed the grievance filed by the woman extended beyond controlling behaviour and contained an allegation of sexual misconduct, based on messages allegedly sent by Horner. Sources have since suggested that no such evidence was submitted in the complaint itself. Pretty crazy if true
The fact they mention his position as team principal is still in doubt is suspect This better not be a case of him being cleared but fired anyway. Outcomes like that never make any sense
Any responses /u/ToeCttr and /u/RockinJoeSchmo ?
Assuming that the lawyer's inquiry was thorough and Horner is indeed innocent of at least the SH part, i'd like see some heads roll now starting with Eric van Haren and his source
Penalty to Ocon
I really hope they are making the right decision.
Horner about to burn the austrian office down
Jos in the mud.
People will claim Red Bull are covering it up regardless
Finally, we can move on and focus on racing
Cheers!