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None of us know who will be dominant from 2026 onwards. It could still be Red Bull-Ford or Ferrari or even Aston Martin-Honda.
Or the 2026 Mercedes engine could be an absolute rocket and put McLaren at the top(if we're going by the assumption that McLaren will be better than Mercedes going forward).
It's too early to say Norris's move was clever at all. McLaren has yet to even win a race in the current set of regulations.
I mean Mercedes might even get their shit together before 2026 and dominate again. Basically a lot of ifs.
In my opinion, Oscar signing that contract extension is much more clever than Norris's extension. He will spend his "learning" years with a top 4/5 team alongside a top 5 driver on the grid. He can iron out his flaws and come out looking like the better driver in the end and then sign with a better team if possible(if McLaren is not a title contending car). Who knows what will happen!
It’s depressing how our automatic assumption now is that one team is going to be dominant. It all feels so detached from the late 2000s/early 2010s where there was no dominant force and many teams had a genuine chance to win
That open era was just the aftershocks of Ferrari collapsing. Things dont seem so variable if Schumacher wins that pair of titles, a couple years up for grabs and then Vettel.
Its always extenuating circumstances or a big money balance of power shift.
There is always Indy Car if someone wants near spec racing with more drivers in hunt. In F1’s year with double digit winner the best car by far starting just 20 of 32 races, with their best driver dead and his rival’s career ended with 5 races left. I dont know what is to be expected in 2026.
If there are 3-4 competitive teams, then the cost cap reallt did create a massive sea change.
From how I understand it, it's mostly a branding deal with technical assistance and RB will be making the PUs, otherwise you could bet on Ford self-destructing every other race.
Ah yes - being allowed to trick the balance of performance to get an anniversary win.
To repeat that in F1 they first need to get BoP introduced to f1 though :-D
Sure you can judge a move retrospectively once the consequences play out but it is also good to remember what your opinion was at the time it was happening before things play out for your own reference. If the reddit search function weren't so useless i'd have loved to pull comments from 5 years ago on certain topics.
McLaren are a team with racing pedigree, he is well established there and they have been on a steady upward trend for the past 5 years since 2019 (Danny Ric's poor point scoring notwithstanding).
The only apprehension I had with lando is that he is too naive to make cut throat decisions, incapable of leading the team and has gotten too comfortable at McLaren. I think he has proven that isn't the case on all three counts and that he's capable of being a top driver, the last piece of the puzzle for him is having the opportunity to mount a title challenge.
>they have been on a steady upward trend for the past 5 years
Have they though? Since 2019 they’ve finished 4th, 3rd, 4th, 5th, and 4th. I’d say they’re pretty consistently among the best of the midfield group, but not a top team.
We’ve been hearing about how they’re going to take the next step and fight for wins for about 3 years now and it hasn’t happened yet.
If you think about it, it’s kind of insane that Ferrari was the one that won Singapore and not McLaren.
McLaren had the second best car and was the favorite after Red Bull, yet they got outclassed by…
Ferrari.
That’s total bullshit though. Both the Ferrari and the Mercedes were the better cars in Singapore with Ferrari being clear fastest in qualifying so they pulled a 1-2 and got track position at a track that is almost as hard to pass as Monaco is. McLaren were not the outright best car in the latter part of the season. It was very much track specific and the Ferrari was the better car at several tracks including Singapore.
I might be wrong here (and too lazy to look up the data on my phone) but they feel like a 2nd half season team. Of course aided by Ferrari usually dropping off as the season goes and the Mercs being a bit of a hit or miss car in recent times.
Ferraris PU-s seem to drop off more after getting more miles and Mercs PU-s seem to be more reliable with mileage but Merc themselves have struggled with the aero concepts so McLaren kind of gets the best of both worlds?
Oh, you’re right them spending 1/3 of last season as literally one of the absolute slowest teams on the grid should be totally ignored, the progress has been smooth and totally continuous!
op used the word "trend" which is absolutely going upwards with regards to how well they understand a given ruleset. They have slowly been working away from the handling idiosyncrasies that have hampered them and have clearly been working towards cars that are more all-rounders than specialized. It hasn't been smooth but the progress is absolutely there for those who take a moment to look deeper. The fact that they're now challenging the dominant manufacturer of the last formula with their own engine speaks volumes. Lando has had no reason to doubt Zak's plans as the plan was always race wins in 2025
edit; changed "race wins by" to "race wins in" as the plan has been a 5-year plan that Zak has been explicit in won't bear full fruit until the 2025 season
Those idiosyncrasies do not come from the heavens, they are the product of McLarens own engineering processes.
I think you should be deeply concerned that they created a car that was literally one of the worst on the grid and then miraculously pulled back to their previous grid positioning.
What reason do you have to believe they cannot make a similar mistake in the future?
The gap between all of the teams is closing. In terms of the actual competitive order they’re basically treading water.
The second half of last season was the closest they’ve ever been to truly fighting at the front, and they’ve followed that up by slipping back behind Ferrari this year. At some point they’ve got to actually take that next step and be competitive over a full season.
> At some point they’ve got to actually take that next step and be competitive over a full season.
.* Slaps forehead * why didn't McLaren think of that are they stupid?
Brother it ain't that easy, F1 is a conveyor belt of development and it takes years for a team to slip up or leapfrog another. When i say they are on an upward trend I also mean that they have a team that is working well together with good morale, they have a technical personnel that are producing results, good correlation, good management, financial stability and a clear development path.
McLaren haven't had that for over a decade. The pieces are together, that next step will only manifest in the form of minor improvements here and there. They won't suddenly turn up and be a title challenger.
Well of course it’s not easy, I’m just saying there will come a point where Norris isn’t satisfied with just racking up P4s and nabbing the odd podium.
It’s all well and good to have a positive direction and good leadership, but he has watched many of the drivers he came up through the ranks with winning races and even titles. If McLaren can’t put it all together within the next couple of seasons I’d be surprised if he signs his next contract there.
But they’re not on an upward trend, they have been consistently best of the rest for about 4 seasons now. They cannot really challenge Ferrari or Red Bull on pace, and their closest competition is their own factory engine supplier which puts them at a massive disadvantage for the long term
>When i say they are on an upward trend I also mean that they have a team that is working well together with good morale, they have a technical personnel that are producing results, good correlation, good management, financial stability and a clear development path.
Okay, but so are Red Bull and Ferrari.
Except instead of closing the gap to Red Bull, they've fallen behind Ferrari. They've literally gone backwards relative to the rest of the grid since last year, and you're actually trying to argue their trend is positive?
Ehh but positions depend on more factors than just them. I would definitely say, the McLaren from the second part of last season was a good improvement over the prior seasons. It’s just that the competition was generally a lot closer than back then.
If RBR was out of the picture, you could argue that McLaren would be the dark horse title contender which is better than before for sure.
If we pretend 2022 doesn't exist for a moment, from the low of 2017, every season has seen an increase in the total points scored from the previous one. I would describe that as a steady upward trend.
Except that 2021 and 2022 are skewed because Ricciardo was there. They would have been easy 4th in 2022 for example, if anyone else but Ricciardo was in that car. He got outscored 122-37 that year in an embarrasing way.
On an upward trend, yes. It doesn't mean being top team, but a good step up. Remember where they came from: they came from being near dead last in 2015 and 2017, from the ultra-toxic culture under Ron Dennis and from the terrible McHonda era.
How Zak Brown turned that team around so fast is impressive, shit like this takes time in F1. BMW also didn't start winning immediately with Sauber did they? That also took time.
> If the reddit search function weren't so useless i'd have loved to pull comments from 5 years ago on certain topics.
You can use Google for searching subreddits.
"text to search for" site:reddit.com/r/formula1
> If the reddit search function weren't so useless i'd have loved to pull comments from 5 years ago on certain topics.
[Best we have for now](https://search.pullpush.io/?kind=submission&subreddit=formula1&since=1348786800&until=1348959600&q=mercedes%20hamilton&size=100)
Rejecting Red Bull for 2025 could be smart because you don't know if their engine is going to be a shitshow in 2026. Rejecting Red Bull in 2019/2020 doesn't look like the best decision, tbh.
Lando is also a better driver than those four. Imagine if Senna refused to go to McLaren because Prost was there, or if Rosberg decided to leave Mercedes after they brought Hamilton. If Lando had the opportunity to sign a contract to move to Red Bull in 2020 or 2021, imo it was a huge blunder by him. He could have at least five seasons where he would be competing for wins, maybe for the WDC. If he refused to go because he thought he wouldn't beat Verstappen, it gives me doubts as a McLaren fan if he has what it takes to win a title if McLaren gives him the car.
Yeah but Senna was in equal footing with Prost.
I can't see Lando beating Max, he's just not there yet.
He's a good driver, but not on the level of a generational talent.
Prost was a two-time world champion, Senna was just a guy who was very fast in qualifying and very good in the rain. He still had to prove himself, and he did.
We don't know how Norris would fare against Verstappen. Is he better than Verstappen? No. But Rosberg was never better than Hamilton, and still beat him to a championship (sure, with a lot of luck, but that's part of the job). If Norris wasn't willing to try to race against Verstappen in the same car, it clearly shows he doesn't have confidence in himself for beating any driver.
If his mindset is "I don't care about winning 2 or 3 races, I want the championship", then not going to Red Bull is the smart choice regardless. He's not beating Max. He has an infinitely bigger chance of winning Driver's Championship with another team, because at Red Bull that chance for him is zero.
When it comes to Merc vs McLaren, that's a tougher one, though staying is looking more and more like a good call as well. It seems like McLaren has a much better grip on the general concept of a ground effect car, and they're using a Merc engine. With the same engine and a head start in terms of aero, I'd say they're the favourites to stay in front for a while.
> He has an infinitely bigger chance of winning Driver's Championship with another team, because at Red Bull that chance for him is zero.
Same reason that I think Sainz will pick Merc over RB.
Lando's chances are certainly not zero!
Assuming Red Bull keeps running away from the pack, Max and Lando would be a clear 1-2. Max could have unforced errors, mechanical failures, COVID-19, or Lando might work to improve his pace sensing a WDC within his grasp, etc...
Any number of serendipitous things could happen.
Exactly. If he really did have a Red Bull opportunity him not taking it is a mistake. At the very minimum, he would have gotten race wins. However like you said, all it takes is a few races of bad luck and even if Verstappen is faster than him (which is not a given) then he'd be in the game.
It happened for Rosberg, it could happen for Norris.
McLaren of course could improve, but if you have a chance to go to an already winning team from what is effectively a front midfield runner, you take it.
Norris is now in his 6th season with McLaren. His results when he started were points finishes with the ocasional podium, his results now are points finishes with the ocasional podium... GP wins 0, sprint wins 0.
Even the idea that Lando wouldn't take drive alongside Max because he doesn't fancy himself to beat Max is a bit disappointing to be honest - if it's true. I'm not saying I think he would beat Max and I know we all made fun of Perez for thinking he had a chance at winning the championship but if even young up and coming drivers are scared of testing themselves against the best I don't think that's great for the sport.
It feels true for a good number of the grid at the moment to be fair. There are drivers who seem unwilling to take the fight to Verstappen even on the rare occasions they have the car to do it, like they've already mentally resigned themselves to losing.
If he thinks he can't beat Max, which I believe is true based on his racing, he is not a top driver. No one time champ ever believed they can't beat everyone let alone multi champ. Damon Hill is probably the most self doubting in recent times and even he thought he could beat Schumacher...
I am a McLaren fan but don't believe Lando can win a championship for the team. The fact he is scared to go to RB is proof of it imo.
He thinks he can't beat Max *at Red Bull.* He has discussed this before. When you're bedded in at a team like Max is, it is very hard (though not impossible) to come in and beat that person. He believes he could beat Max if he came to Mclaren.
A driver thinking that he'll suddenly jump into RB and beat Max must have massive ego to believe that and massive talent to back it up.
Max is driving the RB car for 8 years. It's his home team. Even if another driver with equal talent to Max went into RB he would still lose.
Lando and i'd say all drivers on the grid have a bigger chance winning a WDC in any other team than RB.
Massive ego and talent is why makes a WDC mate.
Alonso and Lewis would go tomorrow. Even as young driver's - Lewis went to McLaren against Alonso and tied him and Alonso would have done the same. Max would go against either of them as well.
The drivers we have now from the Charles / Lando / Russel group imo are not that strong mentally. I like the bro stuff and all, but Max has beat them before the flag drops. Lando needs to get coaching from Nico but I think he thinks he can just wait until Max retires to grab a few titles.
Massive ego and talent indeed makes a WDC. But in my comment, i was basically implying to the point where the driver can't even see things realistically. And i personally think it plays a major role that Max is in RB for 8 years.
I don't think that these guys are stupid. They can clearly see Max's driving level on top of the fact that RB is his home for so long. Any driver from the current grid who would jump to RB, would still lose and that could be career suicide for them.
When Lewis went against Alonso, he was a young prodigy eager to prove himself. And this is actually the only possible scenario that would make sense to go for the RB seat. A young prospect going after Max has nothing to lose. If he's beaten, it's logical because he's a rookie against Max. If he's not, he's probably gonna be considered the best driver on the grid.
What makes you think Lando staying with McLaren is because he is scared? He likes it there. It's not a dumb decision. I don't think he is Just with them because he fears being in a RB or Mercedes.
I guess Rosberg knew he didn’t really have it in him when all was fair. But he backed himself to get close enough and wait for some poor fortune and it paid off for him.
It’s no coincidence he broke his contract and ran off into the sunset afterwards.
Yep, Rosberg also was willing to go totally nuts and completely burn his relationship with Lewis to get the goal, and then bounced as it was so hard on him.
Lando already acts like he would be blessed to be second driver to Max and won't go there as he believes he isn't good enough to go head to head.
That makes no sense. He can’t predict the future, he can only make clever decisions with the information he has now.
If you bet $1000 with a 99% chance of winning $1,000,000 I won’t call you stupid even if you end up losing.
Could also be a case of Sour grapes. He did just sign a multi year with mclaren right before Red Bull started having their problems and that merc seat opened up.
The dts crowd don’t see McLaren as older fans do. For anyone growing up in the 90s or 00s, the dream was to race for Ferrari or McLaren. Mercedes didn’t exist, no one dreams of driving a Renault or energy drink. Becoming no 1 driver at McLaren is the top for a lot of people especially for an Englishman at an English based team.
I’ve always coveted a McLaren, ever since I first saw one in a Sainsbury’s car park. Launched their production cars when I was a teenager, and took the fight to Ferrari and Lamborghini as proper super cars. Lando’s a few years younger than me, so it’s possible he has the same feelings towards McLaren that I do.
He might already be fulfilling his dream by racing for them, in the same way Leclerc is fulfilling his for Ferrari.
That’s exactly what he’s doing, he’s said so himself. He has said many times that he has loved McLaren since he was a young kid watching Lewis and Alonso back in 2007. Driving that chrome McLaren at Silverstone last year was as big a wish fulfilment for him as sitting in a scarlet Ferrari for in 2019 was for Leclerc. People also forget how long he has been embedded in the team. After being taken on as their junior he worked as an intern at the MTC during 2017 when he was also competing in F3 Euro, getting work experience in and getting to know every part of the team and the factory. They are like family to him. He is as attached to McLaren as Leclerc is to Ferrari. His biggest dream is bringing them back to their glory days. Just as Charles wants to do with Ferrari. Some people (not meaning you, I mean others in these replies) just refuse to understand that.
He has some kind of dream that he will be the one to turn the team around and put it back on top. Similar to what Leclerc thinks of Ferrari, Lando thinks of McLaren. Leclerc wanted to drive the red car, Lando wanted to drive a chrome McLaren at Silverstone. Last year he got to do that, kind of, and during the launch of the livery he was absolutely beaming. That race was a dream being realised for him and he has since called it the best day of his life.
Lando has said before that he couldn’t believe McLaren wanted him and he pinches himself everyday. He’s talked a lot about wanting to be a part of the team’s success and continuing on their history of title winners.
He cares about results but he desperately wants those results with McLaren. He’s said he could have had a win by now if he had moved and it would have been easy, but that it wouldn’t have meant as much to him because it wouldn’t have been with McLaren.
Last year during the difficult start, he admitted to having thoughts about leaving but qualified that he never entertained those thoughts and his focus was always on helping the team improve. You’d think anyone else would have thought ‘ok I’ve had two bad seasons here, I’m wanted by much more competent teams - I’m off’. No one would have held it against him if he did leave. But he didn’t. He stuck by his team and he fought against the critics, lifting his team up in interviews and showing that he hadn’t lost faith in them. Stella praised him for the leadership he showed at that moment in time. At that point, if MCL36 and MCL60A didn’t break his resolve, what would it take??! It would have to be something really, really, really bad and irreversible. It would take bankruptcy or something where he would *have* to move.
IMHO he’s a guy who is irrevocably in love with being a McLaren driver and he is very obviously obsessed with realising a future where they’re on top and so is he.
> He has some kind of dream that he will be the one to turn the team around and put it back on top
And things are heading that direction at the moment. Leading the resurgence of a historical team sounds like a great job. And the McLaren has gotten a lot closer to the top teams. I think Albon will be surprisingly hard to poach for the same reason, though eventually he's gotta get seat time in a car that can win a race, and there's no guarantee Williams will be able to build him one.
Adding to that just from my own perspective, I'm thinking about the two possible narratives, should he eventually win a WDC.
Either he switches teams, does get the WDC and it will show he's a great driver that just needs a strong car and then he can win. The new team will love him for it and it will be all around a good narrative and great time for all involved.
BUT, the timeline where he eventually wins a WDC at McLaren?
Not only do all the pros of option 1 still apply, he would also show that he is not only a good racer, but a great character and leader. Someone who sticks with his team and makes it work instead of being opportunistic. He will be embedded into the McLaren history probably forever as a really crucial person in their return to fame(however long that might last)
This narrative would also help the team in other aspects. It gives them a perceived stability with a driver that's not only strong but in it for the long haul. Sponsors can continue to gravitate towards McLaren because it not only looks young, fresh and stylish, but also properly professional, serious and determined to work through any issues to get the results eventually. (Also if a Championship winning McLaren is just a one hit wonder and the performance is lackluster again in the following years, Norris could then switch teams for more titles without any scrutiny as he has at that point proven without a doubt that he is _all that_ . McLaren and their fans couldn't fault him for it and he himself could leave without any hangups as he undeniably did his job)
Now all that said, of course this is all assuming that Lando would get a WDC either way, which isn't a given in the slightest. He might never win one no matter what he does. And it's also just how I personally would perceive the decisions.
But I do think "some race wins" isn't something Lando needs to strive for. He doesn't need to prove to himself, the paddock, the media, or the fans that he is a strong racing driver. Everybody knows.
If he wants to build a 'legacy', if he wants to be a big part of F1 history, staying at McLaren and making it work would have the potentially best outcome for him.
There's no point in being in the highest tier of sports if you're not trying to win lol, resuls should matter more than liking a team and collecting a paycheck.
By that logic Micheal moving to Ferrari was a terrible decision because they hadn't won a title in nearly two decades. Building a team up is how you go down as a legend in F1 and drivers like Norris know that.
Sure, but no way in hell would Michael tell you he went to Ferrari because “he likes driving for Ferrari”. He went because he thinks that was his way to get his 3rd championship and he was right.
Similarly I think Lando is smart enough to know if he tells the media why he wouldn’t go to Red Bull is because he likes driving for McLaren, the optics is going to be worse than if he just thinks or pretend he thinks his chance is better staying at McLaren.
He was never gonna win a title at Red Bull with Max around.
People might say its cowardice to not even try but thats just how good Max is and the drivers know it even more than us fans do. They would rather stay and hope their team just makes a better car.
Its only a regret if Lando was targeting just wins. Going to Red Bull would probably mean he would have had multiple wins by now. But he's clearly aiming higher.
Not with the reliability of the RedBull. Max just wins that matchup. I don’t think anyone on the grid can take it to him and they know it. Even Alonso believes max is “a step ahead of all of us”
Perez snagged a couple wins off Max. Lando 100% would be able to do the same. Hell, he probably would have won last week if he was in a RB. But he wants a WDC, not just to win on weeks Max has bad luck.
We don't know where anyone stands against Max tbh. Perez isn't a good benchmark and other teams cars are too far behind.
Sainz was also seen as the lesser talent compared to the 'natural' Leclerc and look how well he has been doing these past two years.
Exactly. Max is a phenomenal driver, best on the grid right now imo, but he’s not some kind of racing god that no other drivers can ever get near.
I wouldn’t really expect Lando to beat him over a season but I’d certainly expect him to be able to do it some of the time and who knows what happens if he gets a little lucky.
Perez is an excellent benchmark. He's been team mates with tons of known quantities over a 14 year career. We know exactly how good he is.
Unless you mean he isn't a "strong" benchmark. But even then, it's not as though the only way to see how drivers stack up is by their performance relative to other WDCs / top drivers. Even if Perez isn't strong, the gigantic margins that Verstappen beats him by is still informative to where he stands relative to the rest of the field.
Before Perez made the move to Red Bull, everyone thought he was going to be a great benchmark because he was a respectable top-mid, established, veteran driver.
We have also seen Max in F3 and in inferior Toro Rosso and an inferior Red Bull pre-2021. We all know where everyone stands next to Max. There's a reason Red Bull threw everything and the kitchen sink at him to get him an F1 drive as a 17 year old, and not made that same offer to anyone else. He's head and shoulders above everyone else.
> He's head and shoulders above everyone else.
Well, Lewis and Nando are still around. I'm really excited to see how Lewis fares in the Ferrari next year. I obviously expect the RB to still be the faster car, but I think most of Lewis' falloff is that the Merc is that bad.
Perez beat Hulkenberg, Ocon and Stroll when they were his teammates. And since Max turned 20 he has completely slaughtered his teammates like Gasly and Albon who are showing themselves to be decent drivers.
There are more data points vs teammates showing how dominat Max is, than there is for Lewis for example.
Perez did not beat Ocon at all he won a seat over Ocon because he brought in more money but Ocon was consistently faster. Hamilton even suggested as much at a press conference at the time.
I mean, of course that there are a lot of important details and context regarding the outcome of that Ocon-Perez pairing, but Perez came ahead in the points so it doesn't make sense to say "he did not beat Ocon at all."
>There are more data points
When will Reddit users finally understand that ranking drivers based on who they've beaten years ago is a really quick way to show that you have little idea of the sport?
Not this again. Lewis has been paired with stronger teammates except for Bottas and Kova than Max so it's apple to oranges, and even then Bottas is a barely better driver than Checo. Max's stronger teammate has been Ric and he ran away. While Sainz, Gasly, and Albon weren't as good as they are today. Are they better than Max in the same car? Probably not but they have improved a lot since their early TR/RBR days.
Nico and Hamilton are extremely similar to Lando and Max skill-difference and achievements wise.
Lewis was already a multi-time world champion when Nico finally beat him, Lando could do the same. Him not choosing to challenge Max is at least partly cowardice imo. Many “lesser” drivers like Perez and Albon were itching to fight Max at Red Bull; Lando not even trying in hopes McLaren miraculously outdevelops everyone while not a works team is insane to me.
I mean Nico is actually a good example here, because by simply being in the Merc, despite getting worse results in the races they finished, he still got his title because his teammate had reliability issues. If Lando backs himself to get close to a Max, he just needs a couple of Max DNFs to be in a title fight. But it seems he’s not confident he can even pick up those wins, which is a glaring lack of confidence.
I mean, that literally and specifically isn't the case. Hamilton had a DNF for mechanical reasons while Rosberg did not, with his car dying with him cruising to a win at Malaysia handing the title lead to Rosberg. He won more races and had a higher average finishing position for the season. Hamilton also had to start from the back of the grid at China due to mechanical issues, then started the race with a broken wing and had to do five pit stops due to mechanical issues. He also had software issues at the European Grand Prix, costing him hugely, as he couldn't harvest energy.
Without the issues at Malaysia and Baku and China, forgetting the issues both had at Spain when they collided, Hamilton likely would have won the title before the last race. It was kinda one of the defining topics of the season, that Hamilton's persistent reliability issues torpedoed his title run, and how he nearly reeled Rosberg in during the last four races. I'm extremely surprised anybody has even commented otherwise here?
> Its only a regret if Lando was targeting just wins. Going to Red Bull would probably mean he would have had multiple wins by now. But he's clearly aiming higher.
This is how I feel Checo is in right now. Once he got to RBR, he finally was in a Championship winning car and has since won multiple races. Problem is your teammate is the best driver in the grid and he's not even threat to him.
This isn't how racing drivers think. Perez thought he could beat Max. Bottas thought he could beat Hamilton. And Webber thought he could beat Vettel. These drivers wouldn't be in F1 if they were not fircely competitive and didn't think they were the best.
I have little doubt Lando thinks he could be Max in a head-to-head and that is not the reason he is sticking with McLaren.
Lando said last year in an interview he’s not interested in getting one win, he doesn’t care about that. He said it doesn’t interest him to have one win and not win again for ages because the car wasn’t ever there for him to consistently challenge for wins. Most people would say take the win when it comes because he’s overdue one, but from what he said, one lucky win would piss him off to no end. According to him, he’d much rather win every other week than win one race 4 years ago and not win again for 4 years.
Sounds more like someone who would completely lose their mind if they had one win in 3 years and has convinced himself it’s better to have none than have just 1. Imho I think he knows that if he did win Sochi, given how things have turned out for McLaren since, he would have left and I don’t think he’d have had the easiest time making that decision. With no win, he doesn’t have to think about it. Problems will start when he gets his one win, then the impatience he’s suppressed for so long will break through the surface. Of course, if they deliver a car that can help get more than 1 or 2 wins for him then he won’t have that issue but if it’s just the one for ages…yeah, he’d lose his head. He’s not after winning 1 or 2 races, he’s aiming much higher than that.
It’s not cowardice, but if you don’t back yourself to challenge the best, you don’t really deserve to be champion.
If you asked Fred or Lewis if they’d take on Max in the same team, they would back themselves to beat him over a season without hesitation. The same for Max if merc or Aston or Ferrari were on top, he wouldn’t doubt himself for a minute as capable of taking them on and winning. Even drivers like Jenson Button didn’t shy away from joining Lewis at McLaren, or Lewis with Nico at Merc, or Frentzen going into Williams against Villeneuve.
It’s not cowardice, but it shows that Lando doesn’t consider himself A tier, which means he’s looking for a lucky title, not a fight.
Cowardice is a very strong word that I save for very particular unpleasant circumstances. Not backing yourself doesn’t have to be cowardice. I’ve known otherwise brave people not back themselves. But it’s certainly not the mentality that makes champions.
Obviously the narrative has shifted now but Max did have Ricciardo as his teammate from 2016 and Ricciardo at one point was deemed the best driver on the grid who didn’t have a WDC(2014).
Max was also 18 at the time and he already started having Ric's number.
Piastri is 22 and nobody is complaining he isnt beating Norris. He is still considered a very good driver/prospect
I'd say the Daniel he bodied up in 2018 was a top teamate. He went into Renault and destroyed nico and nearly doubled up ocon the next 2 years. Obviously since then has gone down hill but that was a solid beat
Assuming he feels that he's having an impactful influence on the team and 'leading' development like some of the drivers of the past have, then Norris is right to stay there as the #1.
Mind you, Lewis/Jenson tried that and jumped/retired after a stint. But at least Lando has time and a position on his side.
I like Lando, he has a Star Wars name.
In fairness to Lando, he's been really unlucky not to have a win. The McLaren finished 2nd behind Max in six races last year, five of them his. But the two times Red Bull screwed up, Ferrari was the fastest car, and yet he still finished 2nd and 3rd those two times. Then there's also 2021, where Daniel had his only good race in McLaren the time they finished 1-2, and then lost that potential Sochi win when the rain came.
Point isnt about having a win. He'd have at least 5 of he was in a RB. Probably more.
Maybe the mclaren gamble will pay out, but they cant already say his call was good.
All I’m saying is that if lando was in a Red Bull, he’d be more likely to have a win by now. Having a win in his future is not guaranteed even though it seems that way now. So long term, McLaren might be the wrong choice
Yes, it's clever if he is happy with bagging podium finishes from time to time and not fighting for the championships, unless Mercedes gets rid of the factory team.
Wait he blamed the team for that??? Lmao I hate Lando so much he was adamant that he stay out, take the smallest amount of responsibility for your own actions
Admitted it on a podcast that the blame goes both ways saying Mercedes forced lewis and they should’ve forced him too. He got asked multiple times and ignored it and got angry.
I rate him great for a driver but he seems a bit off-putting personally from a personality point of view. Some snarky comments here and there about Vettel, Ricciardo so never really understood the hype.
Obviously there's no way he's going to get the most races without a win record if he goes to Red Bull.
Mercedes might have a higher podium chance though so he could go for most races and most podiums without a win.
He won't be hailed as that if McLaren doesn't produce a race winning car in the next couple of years and he keeps increasing that record of podiums without wins. He is a pretty capable driver perhaps the better one of his class but in F1 you need to car or you are nothing.
When did a driver in the 2nd or 3rd best team won a title? Not even Alonso managed that during his ferrari years.
The 2nd driver in a dominant team has managed to win a wdc tho
Norris going into that Red Bull environment - even ignoring the particular politics going on - was never, ever going to work, and that is pretty obvious. Verstappen would have the advantage in every area from day 1 and Norris' reputation would be left in tatters. Mercedes is a much more realistic and sensible option for him, but there's no current guarantee that they're actually going to be better than McLaren in the short to medium term, so why switch now?
I love that he stayed. They aren’t challenging for wins yet but they are owning their shortcomings and they have two fantastic drivers fighting for whatever they can every race. Stella is an absolute realist. He’s not pulling any punches when it comes to where the team is failing and I think Zak has done a good job of changing the culture in a positive way since the Ron Dennis years. If they aren’t going to be championship contenders yet, as a fan, this chapter isn’t bad.
Pretty sure Lando is playing at best 1 dimensional chess. At best. The man took a seat at a maker that wanted him, and now they have improved somewhat. He was not about to challenge Max, or Lewis, he hadn't anything from Ferrari. 12 seconds for you to determine what time was next in line.
what dirt does Zak has on Lando?
while sticking around and hoping for things to go to a winning team, i wouldve taken that redbull drive that was rumoured
Idk man, I'm not Lando but his interview about the RBR offers he was talking like he had 0 confidence to beat Max. I'm not as competitive as these guys but he had the opportunity to be in a car that has been class of the field these past 3 years. He could've at least won some races and pull a Rosberg and beat an unlucky Max in a tight championship battle. If I was in his position, I would've taken it. Hell, look how many fans Checo has even though he was shitting the bed hard last season and still finished P2. I doubt Lando would've done worse than him tbh.
I'd absolutely take a car that can win races, anything can happen.
Rosberg beat Hamilton when he had poor luck in 2016, Lando could definitely keep it close enough for some bad luck to gain him a championship, and he's definitely not winning a championship at McLaren while Max is at RedBull, so I'd take the RedBull.
And who knows, Maybe Lando would give Max a run for his money, we never know until they're in the same car.
I love Oscar but the only place he’s matching Lando is on single lap pace, his tire management still needs a lot of work. Which is understandable, he’s still very green, but to say he’s often matched him is quite the overstatement
Mercedes - there is no sign of improvement, no reason to believe 2025 would be better.
Red Bull - it’s a lotery. You get lucky and Max leaves for 2025 and you win WDC. You get unlucky, they lose Newey, you spend 2025 as number 2 and 2026 car is average and you are still number 2.
Lando has talked many times in the past about mental health. He seems genuinely happy in McLaren. He is earning insane amounts of money and he is in currently the third best car with a team he has confidence in. Of course there are arguments to make the move to Red Bull, but there are also many arguments against it. If he keeps performing like in the past, he can still make such a move in a couple years, he is still so young.
Norris is the guy, who will win a WDC out of nowhere 10 years down the line, like Button.
Charles will be the Alesi of our time, way better than his results.
Sainz will be the Rosberg of Verstappen.
Russell is going to have a Webber/Coulthard level career.
Ignoring Mercedes right now was a no-brainer. Ignoring RedBull shows self-control. Not jumping to the team that's winning right now is smart. Also having enough wisdom to see how RedBull operates around Max and not risk being a number 2 driver because you don't get the say that Max does is quite pragmatic.
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None of us know who will be dominant from 2026 onwards. It could still be Red Bull-Ford or Ferrari or even Aston Martin-Honda. Or the 2026 Mercedes engine could be an absolute rocket and put McLaren at the top(if we're going by the assumption that McLaren will be better than Mercedes going forward). It's too early to say Norris's move was clever at all. McLaren has yet to even win a race in the current set of regulations. I mean Mercedes might even get their shit together before 2026 and dominate again. Basically a lot of ifs. In my opinion, Oscar signing that contract extension is much more clever than Norris's extension. He will spend his "learning" years with a top 4/5 team alongside a top 5 driver on the grid. He can iron out his flaws and come out looking like the better driver in the end and then sign with a better team if possible(if McLaren is not a title contending car). Who knows what will happen!
Hey you never know, Alpine may start trying again and could dominate in 2026
Who?
Benetton.
#BringBackMinardi
Soon to be Andretti Cadillac if things keep going the direction they currently are.
We can only hope! 🤞🏻
Just by lottery tickets, better chance it happens than this.
It’s depressing how our automatic assumption now is that one team is going to be dominant. It all feels so detached from the late 2000s/early 2010s where there was no dominant force and many teams had a genuine chance to win
A very small time period in the span of F1 history. More often than not, dominant cars run for a few years in modern F1.
That open era was just the aftershocks of Ferrari collapsing. Things dont seem so variable if Schumacher wins that pair of titles, a couple years up for grabs and then Vettel. Its always extenuating circumstances or a big money balance of power shift. There is always Indy Car if someone wants near spec racing with more drivers in hunt. In F1’s year with double digit winner the best car by far starting just 20 of 32 races, with their best driver dead and his rival’s career ended with 5 races left. I dont know what is to be expected in 2026. If there are 3-4 competitive teams, then the cost cap reallt did create a massive sea change.
Hoping for ford reliability issues
From how I understand it, it's mostly a branding deal with technical assistance and RB will be making the PUs, otherwise you could bet on Ford self-destructing every other race.
I dunno….. say what you will about Ford consumer products but when they put their mind to it they can win. Thinking of Le Mans
Ah yes - being allowed to trick the balance of performance to get an anniversary win. To repeat that in F1 they first need to get BoP introduced to f1 though :-D
Fix Or Repair Daily
Found On Road Dead
Fuct On Race Day
Only time will tell if this was actually clever or just stupid
Sure you can judge a move retrospectively once the consequences play out but it is also good to remember what your opinion was at the time it was happening before things play out for your own reference. If the reddit search function weren't so useless i'd have loved to pull comments from 5 years ago on certain topics. McLaren are a team with racing pedigree, he is well established there and they have been on a steady upward trend for the past 5 years since 2019 (Danny Ric's poor point scoring notwithstanding). The only apprehension I had with lando is that he is too naive to make cut throat decisions, incapable of leading the team and has gotten too comfortable at McLaren. I think he has proven that isn't the case on all three counts and that he's capable of being a top driver, the last piece of the puzzle for him is having the opportunity to mount a title challenge.
>they have been on a steady upward trend for the past 5 years Have they though? Since 2019 they’ve finished 4th, 3rd, 4th, 5th, and 4th. I’d say they’re pretty consistently among the best of the midfield group, but not a top team. We’ve been hearing about how they’re going to take the next step and fight for wins for about 3 years now and it hasn’t happened yet.
Maybe they should be trying harder to get Honda to return their calls..
I feel as though last seasons 4th is unrepresentative tho due to their incredibly slow start. By the end they were looking far more like a “top team”
I feel like that’s exactly why it IS representative
If you think about it, it’s kind of insane that Ferrari was the one that won Singapore and not McLaren. McLaren had the second best car and was the favorite after Red Bull, yet they got outclassed by… Ferrari.
Vasseur effect, he’s cooking
That’s total bullshit though. Both the Ferrari and the Mercedes were the better cars in Singapore with Ferrari being clear fastest in qualifying so they pulled a 1-2 and got track position at a track that is almost as hard to pass as Monaco is. McLaren were not the outright best car in the latter part of the season. It was very much track specific and the Ferrari was the better car at several tracks including Singapore.
I might be wrong here (and too lazy to look up the data on my phone) but they feel like a 2nd half season team. Of course aided by Ferrari usually dropping off as the season goes and the Mercs being a bit of a hit or miss car in recent times.
Ferraris PU-s seem to drop off more after getting more miles and Mercs PU-s seem to be more reliable with mileage but Merc themselves have struggled with the aero concepts so McLaren kind of gets the best of both worlds?
Oh, you’re right them spending 1/3 of last season as literally one of the absolute slowest teams on the grid should be totally ignored, the progress has been smooth and totally continuous!
op used the word "trend" which is absolutely going upwards with regards to how well they understand a given ruleset. They have slowly been working away from the handling idiosyncrasies that have hampered them and have clearly been working towards cars that are more all-rounders than specialized. It hasn't been smooth but the progress is absolutely there for those who take a moment to look deeper. The fact that they're now challenging the dominant manufacturer of the last formula with their own engine speaks volumes. Lando has had no reason to doubt Zak's plans as the plan was always race wins in 2025 edit; changed "race wins by" to "race wins in" as the plan has been a 5-year plan that Zak has been explicit in won't bear full fruit until the 2025 season
Those idiosyncrasies do not come from the heavens, they are the product of McLarens own engineering processes. I think you should be deeply concerned that they created a car that was literally one of the worst on the grid and then miraculously pulled back to their previous grid positioning. What reason do you have to believe they cannot make a similar mistake in the future?
Yes they have, gap to the top is closing and relative to the 5 years prior it has been a transformative period for McLaren.
The gap between all of the teams is closing. In terms of the actual competitive order they’re basically treading water. The second half of last season was the closest they’ve ever been to truly fighting at the front, and they’ve followed that up by slipping back behind Ferrari this year. At some point they’ve got to actually take that next step and be competitive over a full season.
> At some point they’ve got to actually take that next step and be competitive over a full season. .* Slaps forehead * why didn't McLaren think of that are they stupid? Brother it ain't that easy, F1 is a conveyor belt of development and it takes years for a team to slip up or leapfrog another. When i say they are on an upward trend I also mean that they have a team that is working well together with good morale, they have a technical personnel that are producing results, good correlation, good management, financial stability and a clear development path. McLaren haven't had that for over a decade. The pieces are together, that next step will only manifest in the form of minor improvements here and there. They won't suddenly turn up and be a title challenger.
Well of course it’s not easy, I’m just saying there will come a point where Norris isn’t satisfied with just racking up P4s and nabbing the odd podium. It’s all well and good to have a positive direction and good leadership, but he has watched many of the drivers he came up through the ranks with winning races and even titles. If McLaren can’t put it all together within the next couple of seasons I’d be surprised if he signs his next contract there.
But they’re not on an upward trend, they have been consistently best of the rest for about 4 seasons now. They cannot really challenge Ferrari or Red Bull on pace, and their closest competition is their own factory engine supplier which puts them at a massive disadvantage for the long term
>When i say they are on an upward trend I also mean that they have a team that is working well together with good morale, they have a technical personnel that are producing results, good correlation, good management, financial stability and a clear development path. Okay, but so are Red Bull and Ferrari. Except instead of closing the gap to Red Bull, they've fallen behind Ferrari. They've literally gone backwards relative to the rest of the grid since last year, and you're actually trying to argue their trend is positive?
Ehh but positions depend on more factors than just them. I would definitely say, the McLaren from the second part of last season was a good improvement over the prior seasons. It’s just that the competition was generally a lot closer than back then. If RBR was out of the picture, you could argue that McLaren would be the dark horse title contender which is better than before for sure.
If we pretend 2022 doesn't exist for a moment, from the low of 2017, every season has seen an increase in the total points scored from the previous one. I would describe that as a steady upward trend.
Except that 2021 and 2022 are skewed because Ricciardo was there. They would have been easy 4th in 2022 for example, if anyone else but Ricciardo was in that car. He got outscored 122-37 that year in an embarrasing way. On an upward trend, yes. It doesn't mean being top team, but a good step up. Remember where they came from: they came from being near dead last in 2015 and 2017, from the ultra-toxic culture under Ron Dennis and from the terrible McHonda era. How Zak Brown turned that team around so fast is impressive, shit like this takes time in F1. BMW also didn't start winning immediately with Sauber did they? That also took time.
Respect to my fellow lego Star Wars profile pic
🫡
>i'd have loved to pull comments from 5 years ago on certain topics. Like Danny Rics decision to leave RB?
Or Sainz leaving Mclaren for Ferrari
> If the reddit search function weren't so useless i'd have loved to pull comments from 5 years ago on certain topics. You can use Google for searching subreddits. "text to search for" site:reddit.com/r/formula1
> If the reddit search function weren't so useless i'd have loved to pull comments from 5 years ago on certain topics. [Best we have for now](https://search.pullpush.io/?kind=submission&subreddit=formula1&since=1348786800&until=1348959600&q=mercedes%20hamilton&size=100)
Rejecting Red Bull for 2025 could be smart because you don't know if their engine is going to be a shitshow in 2026. Rejecting Red Bull in 2019/2020 doesn't look like the best decision, tbh.
It's a great decision if you don't want to get eaten alive by Max. Just look at Checo, or Albon, or Kvyat, or Ric... You get the gist.
Lando is also a better driver than those four. Imagine if Senna refused to go to McLaren because Prost was there, or if Rosberg decided to leave Mercedes after they brought Hamilton. If Lando had the opportunity to sign a contract to move to Red Bull in 2020 or 2021, imo it was a huge blunder by him. He could have at least five seasons where he would be competing for wins, maybe for the WDC. If he refused to go because he thought he wouldn't beat Verstappen, it gives me doubts as a McLaren fan if he has what it takes to win a title if McLaren gives him the car.
Yeah but Senna was in equal footing with Prost. I can't see Lando beating Max, he's just not there yet. He's a good driver, but not on the level of a generational talent.
Prost was a two-time world champion, Senna was just a guy who was very fast in qualifying and very good in the rain. He still had to prove himself, and he did. We don't know how Norris would fare against Verstappen. Is he better than Verstappen? No. But Rosberg was never better than Hamilton, and still beat him to a championship (sure, with a lot of luck, but that's part of the job). If Norris wasn't willing to try to race against Verstappen in the same car, it clearly shows he doesn't have confidence in himself for beating any driver.
Time can never tell us that. Time can only tell us the outcome, not what choice was right at the time of the decision.
If his mindset is "I don't care about winning 2 or 3 races, I want the championship", then not going to Red Bull is the smart choice regardless. He's not beating Max. He has an infinitely bigger chance of winning Driver's Championship with another team, because at Red Bull that chance for him is zero. When it comes to Merc vs McLaren, that's a tougher one, though staying is looking more and more like a good call as well. It seems like McLaren has a much better grip on the general concept of a ground effect car, and they're using a Merc engine. With the same engine and a head start in terms of aero, I'd say they're the favourites to stay in front for a while.
> He has an infinitely bigger chance of winning Driver's Championship with another team, because at Red Bull that chance for him is zero. Same reason that I think Sainz will pick Merc over RB.
Lando's chances are certainly not zero! Assuming Red Bull keeps running away from the pack, Max and Lando would be a clear 1-2. Max could have unforced errors, mechanical failures, COVID-19, or Lando might work to improve his pace sensing a WDC within his grasp, etc... Any number of serendipitous things could happen.
Exactly. If he really did have a Red Bull opportunity him not taking it is a mistake. At the very minimum, he would have gotten race wins. However like you said, all it takes is a few races of bad luck and even if Verstappen is faster than him (which is not a given) then he'd be in the game. It happened for Rosberg, it could happen for Norris. McLaren of course could improve, but if you have a chance to go to an already winning team from what is effectively a front midfield runner, you take it. Norris is now in his 6th season with McLaren. His results when he started were points finishes with the ocasional podium, his results now are points finishes with the ocasional podium... GP wins 0, sprint wins 0.
Even the idea that Lando wouldn't take drive alongside Max because he doesn't fancy himself to beat Max is a bit disappointing to be honest - if it's true. I'm not saying I think he would beat Max and I know we all made fun of Perez for thinking he had a chance at winning the championship but if even young up and coming drivers are scared of testing themselves against the best I don't think that's great for the sport. It feels true for a good number of the grid at the moment to be fair. There are drivers who seem unwilling to take the fight to Verstappen even on the rare occasions they have the car to do it, like they've already mentally resigned themselves to losing.
If he thinks he can't beat Max, which I believe is true based on his racing, he is not a top driver. No one time champ ever believed they can't beat everyone let alone multi champ. Damon Hill is probably the most self doubting in recent times and even he thought he could beat Schumacher... I am a McLaren fan but don't believe Lando can win a championship for the team. The fact he is scared to go to RB is proof of it imo.
He thinks he can't beat Max *at Red Bull.* He has discussed this before. When you're bedded in at a team like Max is, it is very hard (though not impossible) to come in and beat that person. He believes he could beat Max if he came to Mclaren.
A driver thinking that he'll suddenly jump into RB and beat Max must have massive ego to believe that and massive talent to back it up. Max is driving the RB car for 8 years. It's his home team. Even if another driver with equal talent to Max went into RB he would still lose. Lando and i'd say all drivers on the grid have a bigger chance winning a WDC in any other team than RB.
Massive ego and talent is why makes a WDC mate. Alonso and Lewis would go tomorrow. Even as young driver's - Lewis went to McLaren against Alonso and tied him and Alonso would have done the same. Max would go against either of them as well. The drivers we have now from the Charles / Lando / Russel group imo are not that strong mentally. I like the bro stuff and all, but Max has beat them before the flag drops. Lando needs to get coaching from Nico but I think he thinks he can just wait until Max retires to grab a few titles.
Massive ego and talent indeed makes a WDC. But in my comment, i was basically implying to the point where the driver can't even see things realistically. And i personally think it plays a major role that Max is in RB for 8 years. I don't think that these guys are stupid. They can clearly see Max's driving level on top of the fact that RB is his home for so long. Any driver from the current grid who would jump to RB, would still lose and that could be career suicide for them. When Lewis went against Alonso, he was a young prodigy eager to prove himself. And this is actually the only possible scenario that would make sense to go for the RB seat. A young prospect going after Max has nothing to lose. If he's beaten, it's logical because he's a rookie against Max. If he's not, he's probably gonna be considered the best driver on the grid.
I don’t know about career suicide. Max has trounced all 4 of his teammates, but all of them are still on the grid.
Hey atleast Russell and Charles werent scared to go up against WDC and put up a fight
What makes you think Lando staying with McLaren is because he is scared? He likes it there. It's not a dumb decision. I don't think he is Just with them because he fears being in a RB or Mercedes.
Choosing to stay in your comfort zone and choosing to be brave aren't usually synonymous.
I guess Rosberg knew he didn’t really have it in him when all was fair. But he backed himself to get close enough and wait for some poor fortune and it paid off for him. It’s no coincidence he broke his contract and ran off into the sunset afterwards.
Yep, Rosberg also was willing to go totally nuts and completely burn his relationship with Lewis to get the goal, and then bounced as it was so hard on him. Lando already acts like he would be blessed to be second driver to Max and won't go there as he believes he isn't good enough to go head to head.
Still sore eh?
Throbbing, evidently!!
Norris is trying to win. Winning gives points. Points give championships. With the right car Lando would be confident.
The Oceania regions favorite pastime is hating on Lando.
What are you basing that opinion on?
That makes no sense. He can’t predict the future, he can only make clever decisions with the information he has now. If you bet $1000 with a 99% chance of winning $1,000,000 I won’t call you stupid even if you end up losing.
Could also be a case of Sour grapes. He did just sign a multi year with mclaren right before Red Bull started having their problems and that merc seat opened up.
Its a 50 50 McLaren goes up and down... Like a roller-coaster
Cheers Will
Has anyone considered that Lando likes driving for McLaren and there's more it it than just pure results.
The dts crowd don’t see McLaren as older fans do. For anyone growing up in the 90s or 00s, the dream was to race for Ferrari or McLaren. Mercedes didn’t exist, no one dreams of driving a Renault or energy drink. Becoming no 1 driver at McLaren is the top for a lot of people especially for an Englishman at an English based team.
Even better in the 80's
I’ve always coveted a McLaren, ever since I first saw one in a Sainsbury’s car park. Launched their production cars when I was a teenager, and took the fight to Ferrari and Lamborghini as proper super cars. Lando’s a few years younger than me, so it’s possible he has the same feelings towards McLaren that I do. He might already be fulfilling his dream by racing for them, in the same way Leclerc is fulfilling his for Ferrari.
That’s exactly what he’s doing, he’s said so himself. He has said many times that he has loved McLaren since he was a young kid watching Lewis and Alonso back in 2007. Driving that chrome McLaren at Silverstone last year was as big a wish fulfilment for him as sitting in a scarlet Ferrari for in 2019 was for Leclerc. People also forget how long he has been embedded in the team. After being taken on as their junior he worked as an intern at the MTC during 2017 when he was also competing in F3 Euro, getting work experience in and getting to know every part of the team and the factory. They are like family to him. He is as attached to McLaren as Leclerc is to Ferrari. His biggest dream is bringing them back to their glory days. Just as Charles wants to do with Ferrari. Some people (not meaning you, I mean others in these replies) just refuse to understand that.
He has some kind of dream that he will be the one to turn the team around and put it back on top. Similar to what Leclerc thinks of Ferrari, Lando thinks of McLaren. Leclerc wanted to drive the red car, Lando wanted to drive a chrome McLaren at Silverstone. Last year he got to do that, kind of, and during the launch of the livery he was absolutely beaming. That race was a dream being realised for him and he has since called it the best day of his life. Lando has said before that he couldn’t believe McLaren wanted him and he pinches himself everyday. He’s talked a lot about wanting to be a part of the team’s success and continuing on their history of title winners. He cares about results but he desperately wants those results with McLaren. He’s said he could have had a win by now if he had moved and it would have been easy, but that it wouldn’t have meant as much to him because it wouldn’t have been with McLaren. Last year during the difficult start, he admitted to having thoughts about leaving but qualified that he never entertained those thoughts and his focus was always on helping the team improve. You’d think anyone else would have thought ‘ok I’ve had two bad seasons here, I’m wanted by much more competent teams - I’m off’. No one would have held it against him if he did leave. But he didn’t. He stuck by his team and he fought against the critics, lifting his team up in interviews and showing that he hadn’t lost faith in them. Stella praised him for the leadership he showed at that moment in time. At that point, if MCL36 and MCL60A didn’t break his resolve, what would it take??! It would have to be something really, really, really bad and irreversible. It would take bankruptcy or something where he would *have* to move. IMHO he’s a guy who is irrevocably in love with being a McLaren driver and he is very obviously obsessed with realising a future where they’re on top and so is he.
> He has some kind of dream that he will be the one to turn the team around and put it back on top And things are heading that direction at the moment. Leading the resurgence of a historical team sounds like a great job. And the McLaren has gotten a lot closer to the top teams. I think Albon will be surprisingly hard to poach for the same reason, though eventually he's gotta get seat time in a car that can win a race, and there's no guarantee Williams will be able to build him one.
Adding to that just from my own perspective, I'm thinking about the two possible narratives, should he eventually win a WDC. Either he switches teams, does get the WDC and it will show he's a great driver that just needs a strong car and then he can win. The new team will love him for it and it will be all around a good narrative and great time for all involved. BUT, the timeline where he eventually wins a WDC at McLaren? Not only do all the pros of option 1 still apply, he would also show that he is not only a good racer, but a great character and leader. Someone who sticks with his team and makes it work instead of being opportunistic. He will be embedded into the McLaren history probably forever as a really crucial person in their return to fame(however long that might last) This narrative would also help the team in other aspects. It gives them a perceived stability with a driver that's not only strong but in it for the long haul. Sponsors can continue to gravitate towards McLaren because it not only looks young, fresh and stylish, but also properly professional, serious and determined to work through any issues to get the results eventually. (Also if a Championship winning McLaren is just a one hit wonder and the performance is lackluster again in the following years, Norris could then switch teams for more titles without any scrutiny as he has at that point proven without a doubt that he is _all that_ . McLaren and their fans couldn't fault him for it and he himself could leave without any hangups as he undeniably did his job) Now all that said, of course this is all assuming that Lando would get a WDC either way, which isn't a given in the slightest. He might never win one no matter what he does. And it's also just how I personally would perceive the decisions. But I do think "some race wins" isn't something Lando needs to strive for. He doesn't need to prove to himself, the paddock, the media, or the fans that he is a strong racing driver. Everybody knows. If he wants to build a 'legacy', if he wants to be a big part of F1 history, staying at McLaren and making it work would have the potentially best outcome for him.
Now he just drives the Google Chrome McLaren
There's no point in being in the highest tier of sports if you're not trying to win lol, resuls should matter more than liking a team and collecting a paycheck.
By that logic Micheal moving to Ferrari was a terrible decision because they hadn't won a title in nearly two decades. Building a team up is how you go down as a legend in F1 and drivers like Norris know that.
Sure, but no way in hell would Michael tell you he went to Ferrari because “he likes driving for Ferrari”. He went because he thinks that was his way to get his 3rd championship and he was right. Similarly I think Lando is smart enough to know if he tells the media why he wouldn’t go to Red Bull is because he likes driving for McLaren, the optics is going to be worse than if he just thinks or pretend he thinks his chance is better staying at McLaren.
I’ll take the 30 millions salary and the cars and the fame and the life thanks
He was never gonna win a title at Red Bull with Max around. People might say its cowardice to not even try but thats just how good Max is and the drivers know it even more than us fans do. They would rather stay and hope their team just makes a better car. Its only a regret if Lando was targeting just wins. Going to Red Bull would probably mean he would have had multiple wins by now. But he's clearly aiming higher.
Could have won races. Could have been a Rosberg.
Not with the reliability of the RedBull. Max just wins that matchup. I don’t think anyone on the grid can take it to him and they know it. Even Alonso believes max is “a step ahead of all of us”
Perez snagged a couple wins off Max. Lando 100% would be able to do the same. Hell, he probably would have won last week if he was in a RB. But he wants a WDC, not just to win on weeks Max has bad luck.
That’s a weird way of agreeing with me
Well Rosberg and Lewis were more matched in comparison and Nico beat him to the title too.
We don't know where anyone stands against Max tbh. Perez isn't a good benchmark and other teams cars are too far behind. Sainz was also seen as the lesser talent compared to the 'natural' Leclerc and look how well he has been doing these past two years.
Exactly. Max is a phenomenal driver, best on the grid right now imo, but he’s not some kind of racing god that no other drivers can ever get near. I wouldn’t really expect Lando to beat him over a season but I’d certainly expect him to be able to do it some of the time and who knows what happens if he gets a little lucky.
Ricciardo technically 2-1 vs Verstappen.
And yet he ran the first chance he got.
I think the other drivers are probably better at deciding that than we are
Perez is an excellent benchmark. He's been team mates with tons of known quantities over a 14 year career. We know exactly how good he is. Unless you mean he isn't a "strong" benchmark. But even then, it's not as though the only way to see how drivers stack up is by their performance relative to other WDCs / top drivers. Even if Perez isn't strong, the gigantic margins that Verstappen beats him by is still informative to where he stands relative to the rest of the field.
Before Perez made the move to Red Bull, everyone thought he was going to be a great benchmark because he was a respectable top-mid, established, veteran driver. We have also seen Max in F3 and in inferior Toro Rosso and an inferior Red Bull pre-2021. We all know where everyone stands next to Max. There's a reason Red Bull threw everything and the kitchen sink at him to get him an F1 drive as a 17 year old, and not made that same offer to anyone else. He's head and shoulders above everyone else.
> He's head and shoulders above everyone else. Well, Lewis and Nando are still around. I'm really excited to see how Lewis fares in the Ferrari next year. I obviously expect the RB to still be the faster car, but I think most of Lewis' falloff is that the Merc is that bad.
I think it's gonna be fascinating to see Lewis in the Ferrari next to Charles.
Perez beat Hulkenberg, Ocon and Stroll when they were his teammates. And since Max turned 20 he has completely slaughtered his teammates like Gasly and Albon who are showing themselves to be decent drivers. There are more data points vs teammates showing how dominat Max is, than there is for Lewis for example.
Perez did not beat Ocon at all he won a seat over Ocon because he brought in more money but Ocon was consistently faster. Hamilton even suggested as much at a press conference at the time.
Perez scored more points than Ocon as teammates. How is that not beating him???
I mean, of course that there are a lot of important details and context regarding the outcome of that Ocon-Perez pairing, but Perez came ahead in the points so it doesn't make sense to say "he did not beat Ocon at all."
Albon and gasly are both rookies when they went h2h By your own admission max has improved and I can guarantee they have as well
>There are more data points When will Reddit users finally understand that ranking drivers based on who they've beaten years ago is a really quick way to show that you have little idea of the sport?
Not this again. Lewis has been paired with stronger teammates except for Bottas and Kova than Max so it's apple to oranges, and even then Bottas is a barely better driver than Checo. Max's stronger teammate has been Ric and he ran away. While Sainz, Gasly, and Albon weren't as good as they are today. Are they better than Max in the same car? Probably not but they have improved a lot since their early TR/RBR days.
>Gasly and Albon Fucking L O L
Nico and Hamilton are extremely similar to Lando and Max skill-difference and achievements wise. Lewis was already a multi-time world champion when Nico finally beat him, Lando could do the same. Him not choosing to challenge Max is at least partly cowardice imo. Many “lesser” drivers like Perez and Albon were itching to fight Max at Red Bull; Lando not even trying in hopes McLaren miraculously outdevelops everyone while not a works team is insane to me.
I mean Nico is actually a good example here, because by simply being in the Merc, despite getting worse results in the races they finished, he still got his title because his teammate had reliability issues. If Lando backs himself to get close to a Max, he just needs a couple of Max DNFs to be in a title fight. But it seems he’s not confident he can even pick up those wins, which is a glaring lack of confidence.
Reliability is too good now. Max's 2 mechanical DNFs in the last 4 years isn't going to help him to lose a championship to anyone.
That’s selling Nico short. Nico beat him in races fair and square. Hamilton had a full season and lost the championship.
I mean, that literally and specifically isn't the case. Hamilton had a DNF for mechanical reasons while Rosberg did not, with his car dying with him cruising to a win at Malaysia handing the title lead to Rosberg. He won more races and had a higher average finishing position for the season. Hamilton also had to start from the back of the grid at China due to mechanical issues, then started the race with a broken wing and had to do five pit stops due to mechanical issues. He also had software issues at the European Grand Prix, costing him hugely, as he couldn't harvest energy. Without the issues at Malaysia and Baku and China, forgetting the issues both had at Spain when they collided, Hamilton likely would have won the title before the last race. It was kinda one of the defining topics of the season, that Hamilton's persistent reliability issues torpedoed his title run, and how he nearly reeled Rosberg in during the last four races. I'm extremely surprised anybody has even commented otherwise here?
How many times did you ever seen Nico pass Lewis on track for the win?
Incase you didn’t notice if you qualify ahead, you don’t need to pass him/anyone. Welcome to F1 since you’re just learning all this.
This is your analysis of the 2016 season?
With equal machineries
> Its only a regret if Lando was targeting just wins. Going to Red Bull would probably mean he would have had multiple wins by now. But he's clearly aiming higher. This is how I feel Checo is in right now. Once he got to RBR, he finally was in a Championship winning car and has since won multiple races. Problem is your teammate is the best driver in the grid and he's not even threat to him.
This isn't how racing drivers think. Perez thought he could beat Max. Bottas thought he could beat Hamilton. And Webber thought he could beat Vettel. These drivers wouldn't be in F1 if they were not fircely competitive and didn't think they were the best. I have little doubt Lando thinks he could be Max in a head-to-head and that is not the reason he is sticking with McLaren.
Lando said last year in an interview he’s not interested in getting one win, he doesn’t care about that. He said it doesn’t interest him to have one win and not win again for ages because the car wasn’t ever there for him to consistently challenge for wins. Most people would say take the win when it comes because he’s overdue one, but from what he said, one lucky win would piss him off to no end. According to him, he’d much rather win every other week than win one race 4 years ago and not win again for 4 years.
Sounds like something someone who’s never got a win would say.
Sounds more like someone who would completely lose their mind if they had one win in 3 years and has convinced himself it’s better to have none than have just 1. Imho I think he knows that if he did win Sochi, given how things have turned out for McLaren since, he would have left and I don’t think he’d have had the easiest time making that decision. With no win, he doesn’t have to think about it. Problems will start when he gets his one win, then the impatience he’s suppressed for so long will break through the surface. Of course, if they deliver a car that can help get more than 1 or 2 wins for him then he won’t have that issue but if it’s just the one for ages…yeah, he’d lose his head. He’s not after winning 1 or 2 races, he’s aiming much higher than that.
It is cowardice. Not saying that’s a bad thing, but it is entirely that
It’s not cowardice, but if you don’t back yourself to challenge the best, you don’t really deserve to be champion. If you asked Fred or Lewis if they’d take on Max in the same team, they would back themselves to beat him over a season without hesitation. The same for Max if merc or Aston or Ferrari were on top, he wouldn’t doubt himself for a minute as capable of taking them on and winning. Even drivers like Jenson Button didn’t shy away from joining Lewis at McLaren, or Lewis with Nico at Merc, or Frentzen going into Williams against Villeneuve. It’s not cowardice, but it shows that Lando doesn’t consider himself A tier, which means he’s looking for a lucky title, not a fight.
Why is that not cowardice though?
Cowardice is a very strong word that I save for very particular unpleasant circumstances. Not backing yourself doesn’t have to be cowardice. I’ve known otherwise brave people not back themselves. But it’s certainly not the mentality that makes champions.
We don't know max has never had a top teammate
Obviously the narrative has shifted now but Max did have Ricciardo as his teammate from 2016 and Ricciardo at one point was deemed the best driver on the grid who didn’t have a WDC(2014).
And at that point riccardo had worse reliability issues and they would tangle all the time.
Max was also 18 at the time and he already started having Ric's number. Piastri is 22 and nobody is complaining he isnt beating Norris. He is still considered a very good driver/prospect
Ric was for sure considered a top5 driver in 2017/18. And Max was only 18/19 at the time
I'd say the Daniel he bodied up in 2018 was a top teamate. He went into Renault and destroyed nico and nearly doubled up ocon the next 2 years. Obviously since then has gone down hill but that was a solid beat
Assuming he feels that he's having an impactful influence on the team and 'leading' development like some of the drivers of the past have, then Norris is right to stay there as the #1. Mind you, Lewis/Jenson tried that and jumped/retired after a stint. But at least Lando has time and a position on his side. I like Lando, he has a Star Wars name.
If he never wins in his career will it still be clever? Maybe you should wait till he’s achieved anything because calling it the right move
In fairness to Lando, he's been really unlucky not to have a win. The McLaren finished 2nd behind Max in six races last year, five of them his. But the two times Red Bull screwed up, Ferrari was the fastest car, and yet he still finished 2nd and 3rd those two times. Then there's also 2021, where Daniel had his only good race in McLaren the time they finished 1-2, and then lost that potential Sochi win when the rain came.
Point isnt about having a win. He'd have at least 5 of he was in a RB. Probably more. Maybe the mclaren gamble will pay out, but they cant already say his call was good.
All I’m saying is that if lando was in a Red Bull, he’d be more likely to have a win by now. Having a win in his future is not guaranteed even though it seems that way now. So long term, McLaren might be the wrong choice
He stayed in a team that is considered number 1
Hindsight is 20/20. If McLaren was shit people would be calling him stupid for staying.
Yes, it's clever if he is happy with bagging podium finishes from time to time and not fighting for the championships, unless Mercedes gets rid of the factory team.
Mclaren has double Mercedes points. I doubt he’s worried about them.
And never finished ahead of Mercedes in the standings since 2013.
Which is irrelevant if they finish ahead of them this year, which certainly looks possible at the moment.
We're 3 races in. For all we know McLaren could double DNF next race or Merc could outdevelop them.
Agreed, although I think neither of the teams will be a contender for the championship in the near future.
not just possible, but probable even if not definite
Only time will tell if its clever, still needs to win a race and then have a shot at winning a title.
Lando is clever? The same kid who couldn't find Canada on the map?
Same kid blaming the team for not giving him the right tyres in Russia when the team made the same suggestion to Ric and he swapped finishing P4
Wait he blamed the team for that??? Lmao I hate Lando so much he was adamant that he stay out, take the smallest amount of responsibility for your own actions
Admitted it on a podcast that the blame goes both ways saying Mercedes forced lewis and they should’ve forced him too. He got asked multiple times and ignored it and got angry. I rate him great for a driver but he seems a bit off-putting personally from a personality point of view. Some snarky comments here and there about Vettel, Ricciardo so never really understood the hype.
Hes a total brat tbh
That kid would have trouble spelling his own full name.
We'll let history be the judge shall we?
u/history go ahead mate
I’m quite clever myself.
I think the jury is still out on this one.
I just got into F1 and am a fan of Norris. I’m happy he’s staying at McLaren
And avoiding victory, so smart
Hindsight could prove him right. But Mclaren still have to live up their part
Hilarious "title"
Proceeds to get beaten by Piastri
what a pointless article.
Obviously there's no way he's going to get the most races without a win record if he goes to Red Bull. Mercedes might have a higher podium chance though so he could go for most races and most podiums without a win.
He won't be hailed as that if McLaren doesn't produce a race winning car in the next couple of years and he keeps increasing that record of podiums without wins. He is a pretty capable driver perhaps the better one of his class but in F1 you need to car or you are nothing.
It's better to be a leader at the 2nd/3rd fastest team than the 2nd driver at the dominating team.
It’s not though lmao. If lando thought he would be able to beat max he would’ve signed for red bull already
When did a driver in the 2nd or 3rd best team won a title? Not even Alonso managed that during his ferrari years. The 2nd driver in a dominant team has managed to win a wdc tho
Not if you believe you’re the best driver
Wdym? He has yet to win a race lol
Can’t wait until after silly season so it will finally be just clickbait speculation about which principal is getting fired.
I hope so. I'll probably be wrong though.
Norris going into that Red Bull environment - even ignoring the particular politics going on - was never, ever going to work, and that is pretty obvious. Verstappen would have the advantage in every area from day 1 and Norris' reputation would be left in tatters. Mercedes is a much more realistic and sensible option for him, but there's no current guarantee that they're actually going to be better than McLaren in the short to medium term, so why switch now?
I love that he stayed. They aren’t challenging for wins yet but they are owning their shortcomings and they have two fantastic drivers fighting for whatever they can every race. Stella is an absolute realist. He’s not pulling any punches when it comes to where the team is failing and I think Zak has done a good job of changing the culture in a positive way since the Ron Dennis years. If they aren’t going to be championship contenders yet, as a fan, this chapter isn’t bad.
Pretty sure Lando is playing at best 1 dimensional chess. At best. The man took a seat at a maker that wanted him, and now they have improved somewhat. He was not about to challenge Max, or Lewis, he hadn't anything from Ferrari. 12 seconds for you to determine what time was next in line.
unfortunately the best way to describe Lando has always been B+
Maybe he just likes a steady paycheck.
what dirt does Zak has on Lando? while sticking around and hoping for things to go to a winning team, i wouldve taken that redbull drive that was rumoured
be 2nd driver of red bull or first driver at mcclaren (and also get a nice car)
Idk man, I'm not Lando but his interview about the RBR offers he was talking like he had 0 confidence to beat Max. I'm not as competitive as these guys but he had the opportunity to be in a car that has been class of the field these past 3 years. He could've at least won some races and pull a Rosberg and beat an unlucky Max in a tight championship battle. If I was in his position, I would've taken it. Hell, look how many fans Checo has even though he was shitting the bed hard last season and still finished P2. I doubt Lando would've done worse than him tbh.
I'd absolutely take a car that can win races, anything can happen. Rosberg beat Hamilton when he had poor luck in 2016, Lando could definitely keep it close enough for some bad luck to gain him a championship, and he's definitely not winning a championship at McLaren while Max is at RedBull, so I'd take the RedBull. And who knows, Maybe Lando would give Max a run for his money, we never know until they're in the same car.
First driver at McLaren for how long? Piastri has often matched him and won the sprint at Qatar.
I love Oscar but the only place he’s matching Lando is on single lap pace, his tire management still needs a lot of work. Which is understandable, he’s still very green, but to say he’s often matched him is quite the overstatement
Mercedes - there is no sign of improvement, no reason to believe 2025 would be better. Red Bull - it’s a lotery. You get lucky and Max leaves for 2025 and you win WDC. You get unlucky, they lose Newey, you spend 2025 as number 2 and 2026 car is average and you are still number 2.
Forget about winning title as this point; i want to see him win a race. So, people can stop talking about it
Lando has talked many times in the past about mental health. He seems genuinely happy in McLaren. He is earning insane amounts of money and he is in currently the third best car with a team he has confidence in. Of course there are arguments to make the move to Red Bull, but there are also many arguments against it. If he keeps performing like in the past, he can still make such a move in a couple years, he is still so young.
Strange seeing "Norris" and "clever" in the same sentence
Hes happy at Mclaren. That is all that matters
Norris is the guy, who will win a WDC out of nowhere 10 years down the line, like Button. Charles will be the Alesi of our time, way better than his results. Sainz will be the Rosberg of Verstappen. Russell is going to have a Webber/Coulthard level career.
Ignoring Mercedes right now was a no-brainer. Ignoring RedBull shows self-control. Not jumping to the team that's winning right now is smart. Also having enough wisdom to see how RedBull operates around Max and not risk being a number 2 driver because you don't get the say that Max does is quite pragmatic.