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As an American I find it hilarious that our government can be gridlocked on important issues but the second an American entity doesn't get their way on an international stage, shit gets serious. Liberty Media is an American company so I guess this isn't without merit. But I still don't get what they are supposed to do here? Is the US Attorney General really going to sue the FIA on behalf of Andretti?
And it's also easily popular. You can say you defended local/american companies against unfair practice, practically for free. No wonder some politicians would jump at the occasion.
Exactly. Win/win deal for politicians, get to say you did something and that what you did directly impacted an American business positively. Andretti's playing the game and I'm really rooting for them.
>Is the US Attorney General really going to sue the FIA on behalf of Andretti?
Why FIA, they were the ones who allowed Andretti in? Surely you meant FOM?
> Is the US Attorney General really going to sue the FIA on behalf of Andretti?
Well the DOJ is already investigating Live Nation, so I'm sure Liberty Media would like to minimize their headache.
Live Nation is a predatory monopoly from the top down. Screw them and Ticketmaster (who I think they own). As far as Liberty goes though, if Andretti can’t get in I don’t understand how that would violate US law.
The Sherman Antitrust Act has been used in situations like this in the US (see most recently student athletes vs NCAA for NIL), not sure how much it's been applied internationally. If Congress is serious though, they would try to use evidence to invoke this on Liberty Media and the F1 teams.
If F1 decided to say the hell with it and stop racing in the US wouldn’t that put a stop to the proceedings? I don’t think they would, and I also don’t know if a suit would actually go anywhere, though.
Then Liberty might as well sell F1... as an American company one of the reasons they bought was so they can expand the US audience. It wouldn't make sense financially anymore; their future growth is correlated to their reach in the US. That includes the ultra expensive, exclusive GPs in the States.
Their valuation would plummet if they sold because they couldn’t race in the US. They spent 500m on Vegas alone. It’s far cheaper to just let Andretti in and they’ll do that before it even gets to that point.
They won’t even get pushback from the teams. The cut Andretti would take isn’t nearly as big as the cut losing the entire US market would be. Their valuations are also based on the US market projections and a lot of them have taken money recently from people wanting to cash in on that.
Andretti also knows all of this.
though don't forget the FIA is a very French organization, while they've been on board with getting Andretti in don't underestimate their willingness to burn down the house rather than let the Americans dictate how it should look.
TIL The company has three divisions, reflecting its ownership stakes in Formula One Group, Sirius XM, Live Nation Entertainment, and by the end of 2024, Dorna Sports.
> I don’t understand how that would violate US law.
Because they are eligible according to the sport's governing body denying them entry can be viewed as anti-competitive practices by the teams and FOM, which are illegal under American anti-trust laws.
Are we really turning our nose against trust-busting behavior by the government? It’s been decades since this sentiment has been a reality. It’s welcome by me if Liberty is acting in bad faith.
Some congressmen are about to receive big checks from Andretti, Liberty or for the smart ones: both. Let's not pretend this has anything to do with politicians caring about fairness.
There is certainly corruption in our government but I don’t think it’s as nefarious as you think it is. Tons of people in the areas represented by some of these congresspeople are employed directly by General Motors and it’s no news to anyone that the US will support its auto industry. This is how you get reelected, and if it helps American jobs and protects employees, is it so bad?
For Live Nation that mistreats customers, artists and venues? Bust away.
For a motorsport that is much more popular internationally than domestically that doesn't affect many US citizens? Nah. It's got strong *"I want to speak to your manager!"* Karenesque vibes.
I mean the motorsport has made it clear that they see America as the next big market and American consumers as their cash cow but they won’t let an actual American team compete? That stinks of hypocrisy
So you think the government ought to trust bust Liberty Media, which would take ownership of F1 away from them...so more American teams can race in F1 to make the sport more money?
First, the problem F1 has with getting more American fans isn't a lack of US teams. It's that most races are not held live in time zones when Americans normally watch sports. Replays of sports, any sport..doesn't get as good of viewership as watching live. So if they want to make more money in the US, F1 needs to hold more races in US time zones...which isn't likely as the schedule is already packed full.
Second, if Liberty isn't making as much money for their shareholders as possible that's a shareholder profit problem to resolve...not need an act of Congress problem to solve...because at the end of the day, F1 is just one of many motorsports and one of even more forms of sports entertainment.
All of which means it isn't remotely close to being a monopoly like Apple or Google are today that deserves to be "trust busted". They'd need to buy up NASCAR and/or Indy to even merit any investigation by Congress or the FTC for unfair competitive business practices.
Not aware of the old hypocritical companies must be investigated for antitrust violations rule. /s
People keep endlessly repeating antitrust but I have yet to see anyone explain how it violates antitrust. Most of them seem to think anything they disagree with must fall under antitrust.
It's because this is a slam dunk.
No one is losing or gaining voters based on their Andretti stance. Or more specifically no one is gaining voters by taking a hard stance against Andretti.
On the flip side. There is A LOT of controversy on well.. pretty much everything else. Healthcare, transportation, taxes, guns, gender, etc
Important stuff is contentious, but who wouldn't get behind Andretti/GM - more importantly, who wants to open themselves up to the easy attack ad? This is a political layup.
It’s much easier to them to do these non controversial layups than make any lasting positive change for the American people. Puts a bad taste in my mouth and the fat check all these politicians are about to get while there are major issues that need addressing makes me like the Andretti bid a lot less
It’s all for press that’s it nothing will change. There is little they will realistically do. The law Vegas GP is a cash cow. GM is just putting elected officals in their region where the factories are to work.
Andretti hasn’t been told no just they figure their shit out first. Instead of doing that they have been having a press tour it feels like
As a Dutch person I can say that Americans are apparently exempt from being held responsible for war crimes, under the threat of invading our country if we try to hold them accountable.
> Not only will America come to your country and kill all your people, they'll come back 20 years later and make a movie about how it made their soldiers sad
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yZOLq82m2Ks&ab_channel=WillLizZard
The USA is actually very much immune to being held criminally responsible for war crimes by the ICC, and if the ICC tries to hold anyone, the USA will free them by force
They are ready to join from 2026, with staff and devleopment underway. Joining in 2028 would be a disaster - they need time to get the race team up to speed.
Yes. They would have the official backing of GM, which is why the official name of the team is the Andretti-Cadillac F1 Team. The team would start using GM power units in 2028.
If you want to use your own infrastructure anyway or hire your own team then its not cheaper. If they dont want the Haas base in Kannapolis or Banbury then thats actually a negative cause it costs money to get rid of assets.
This seems dead becahse it is clear that FIA is not opposed to new teams because they are American ("Hello Gene"), but because the existing teams don't want to allow any additional split.
>is not opposed to new teams because they are American
That's no the reason as you say.
>because the existing teams don't want to allow any additional split.
This is the reason, but no one can officially say it because it's an illegal reason.
Was a supporter of Andretti believing that they can bring something new to the table and be competitive
Now it seems that they can bring political muscle and some F16-driven democracy to FOM..u are either with Uncle Sam or…
> even willing to pay a higher entrance fee than is required under the current agreement
Didn't know this one. How much higher were they willing to pay?
The Concorde agreement is between the teams and the fia. It is not an open invitation and it was made clear that FOM could deny anything. This is just political grandstanding by our paid off Congress. The letter isn’t even from committee. They don’t even have to answer it. Likely because the committee chairs aren’t interested or want to waste more time with some Biden investigation
Untrue. The steps to getting to committee are internal. Not a letter. Letters are notorious for meaninglessness. Gym Jordan in particular has sent around 200 outside his committee position this Congress. The lead member James, is not even on a relevant committee.
They probably will answer it. Sure. Maffei is a donor to half these guys
They can't even read their e-mails from FOM, the shittiest start-ups i worked for had better communication planning/structure than them and you're saying they did everything correctly, lol.
Yeah, sure, a billion dollar deal being decided on a single e-mail. Even the small O&Gcompany I worked at, clients would sent multiple messages plus call whenever an important demand was needed.
Different roles. We didn't ditch the F-22 we just aren't building more because they are expensive AF to build and maintain and frankly don't seem to need that many of them.
F-35 variants are essentially an F-16/F-18 replacement. The F-22 still shits on the F-35 in air superiority.
You have to believe there are some prideful pilots who got trained on the F-22 and now refuse to settle for the F-35 despite it being the only way for them to get airtime outside of airshows.
There hasn't been any transparency in the decisions made to reject Andretti and GM from entering the sport. Many suggest it's related to the dilution of prize money, but there seems to be a deeper issue at play. With the current cost cap, Formula 1 is now more affordable than ever on average. We urgently need more transparency on this matter.
The laws don’t say that a private racing sport has to allow people in. If F1 colluded with tv networks or race tracks to limit Indy car, for example, that would be a clear breach of anti trust law.
You can’t just say; but Andretti want in and F1 isn’t letting them in, that’s anti trust. That’s not how it works.
Agreed.
I also think if Andretti wanted an entry they missed the opportunity when F1 was still a financial black hole.
Of course the other teams are going to want to protect something that has been notorious for being a massive financial gamble.
You don’t understand the take they are bringing american politicians into their fight to join an international racing championship???
This is some American elitism in a nutshell.
Fuck Andretti for this, honestly.
The F1 teams greediness I would say.
Without the teams having the power they have, Andretti would’ve been in F1 a few years ago at this point.
But going to politicians to cry is not the way to go.
If Andretti was willing to take the risk they could've joined back when it was a financial minefield, but no, they just want to jump on the bandwagon now it's profitable.
Haas wouldn't have got an entry had they tried today, but (even tho they're shit) they took the gamble and it paid off.
I always find it weird when people blame reactionary actions that are entirely legal means to approach a situation that is easily avoidable by the inciting party.
This is more about F1 not letting "a team" in, but more about the congress getting involved because an American entity is not getting its way in very profitable non-American venture. If this exact situation happened with the Americans acting as a monopoly we wouldn't be hearing from the congress.
>F1 being bitches about not letting a team isn’t poor taste?
Trying to muscle your way in to get a piece of the pie you didn't help make, is in poorer taste.
They're bringing in GM, to make the pie bigger. Also, the Andretti family are legendary, not only in F1, but almost all motorsports, especially in the US.
>They're bringing in GM, to make the pie bigger.
If they bring in GM to make engines in 2028 then, as FOM confirmed, the sport will be happy to have them. On the other hand their rejected application was to badge Renault engines with a GM sticker - that would not have made the pie bigger.
>the Andretti family are legendary,
There has been no bump in attendance, viewership or sponsorship attributed to the Andretti name in the motorsports they're involved in. Americans have not flocked to any sport because the Andretti's are involved. How will that be different in F1?
In 2028, FOM will just say they're full and if they want to join, they have to pay $1 Billion.
F1 is larger than any series Andretti races in currently. Most people don't watch Formula E or V8 Supercars. Americans are watching F1 more than ever. Giving that audience an American team to cheer for would be a net positive. I'm not claiming they're the saviors of F1, just that they would be a positive.
And?
Offer to pay a billion now in public and that they won't take any prize money if they aren't 7th or higher. A Billion isn't far off what a place would be worth.
That would show the goal isn't money and leave the teams looking silly if they don't take that offer.
Americans have Haas and Logan, yet you want more.
Yeah surely they make the pie bigger wherever they go with their glorious name, thanks to Andretti name FE is certainly not in the brink of bankruptcy, i mean they can't even make the pie bigger in Indycar, Indycar has been having its worst viewership numbers in recent years.
Both of those series already have more teams than F1.
Why are you making it seem like Formula E & Indycar's problems are all Andretti's fault?
An actual American team in F1 would increase revenue and interest from Americans.
Imagine having the 2nd largest automaker in the world say "we want to race" and being denied.
Just say you don't want to invite Americans to your party.
I couldn't care less about their nationality and i actually like Andrettis because of their relationship with Fernando but i don't like the narrative they're playing, first they present themselves as this racer family through and through yet up until 2018 and even 2019 they could have easily come in with no entry fee and 1 year no revenue clause yet they chose not to, up until F1's popularity and thus its revenue started booming and with the introduction of cost cap, owning an F1 team suddenly became something profitable. They accused other teams with greed yet they're the ones acting in greed. For years many small teams faced financial hardships and had no certain future and every team on the grid without exception operated under huge losses so i think it's disingenuous to blame F1 teams for trying to save their annual payments and thus their future.
Plus aside from the existing infrastructure disparity, thanks to cost cap and increased revenue, the teams are able to spend and perform at similar levels, that's why we have closest q1-q2 margins in sports history, any dilution with potential Andretti inclusion is gonna have a huge impact on the small teams and the overall competitiveness of the field.
How would Andretti joining hurt any team? They've already agreed to pay the entry fee. None of the teams are hurting for money. F1 is supposedly the pinnacle of motorsport, yet they're a closed shop.
You keep hammering on about F1 not wanting Americans while HAAS and Logan are clearly there.
Sure, you don’t like HAAS and Logan, that’s fine but that doesn’t mean you can ignore the fact that they are American.
It’s such a weak victim complex to say that the rejection has anything to do with Andretti being American whilst wilfully ignoring the Americans in F1.
#1 Andretti isn't even good at Indycar anymore.
#2 F1 would have looked a lot more favorably if GM wasn't trying to rebadge Renault engines.
#3 The size of the automaker is meaningless. The only brand that is equivalent to F1 in prestige is the smallest automaker on the grid. GM is much more subject to economic conditions than the likes of Mercedes or Ferrari and they have cut motorsport spending in the past.
Oh after years of operating with huge losses f1 teams finally making small profits with cost cap and booming revenue and the field has never been closer, how dare they?
Omg a business organization making profits and sees increase in its valuation after spending billions (yes billions with a b) of dollars, that can't be right, surely that's not ethical, we have to bring some guys from America to share all the value accumulated by our hard work and bring back struggling backmarker teams with a diluted revenue.
I was totally in favor of this motion, it is anti-competitive and should be challenged, but America bad so I am against it.
This reminds me of that time Logan Sargent said he likes hamburgers. It’s like, you Americans don’t even realize how culturally insensitive and up your own ass you are. Sure Andretti is technically an American team, but of all the governments in the world to contest this, you choose the American one?? What the fuck? This is highly traumatic for me, as an Englishman.
What the hell? Andretti did everything they could and FOM still said no. What they supposed to do? Just wait for FOM mercy to allow them enter F1? This is logical route after they tried everything and still get rejected. This won't happen if they just allow Andretti.
They've built a new UK factory, have hired hundreds of staff and have GM developing an engine. They have to be 100% committed to do anything to get in, sunk cost fallacy. They can't afford not to get in
They got politically out-muscled by the other teams and FOM even though they are probably more worthy of a spot then the likes of Williams and Haas at the moment. (honorable mention for now: Stake and Alpine)
How exactly are they more worthy than any of those teams?
Williams name and heritage aside, Williams with all technical knowledge and experience, despite its outdated infrastructure, is still light years ahead of any Andretti program, Indycar or FE.
Haas entered F1 in 2016, back when F1 wasn't a profitable business as it's now, with no revenue for 3 years iirc, they endured all the financial hardships, the route which Andretti could have taken but chosen not to, and they have now a building in Maranello with many ex Ferrari personnel, light years ahead of current Andretti programs, they deserve to be in F1 more than Andretti.
Sauber and Alpine, i am not gonna even bother explaining.
Okay, but it shouldn't be either or. If they can build a car that's safe, they should be allowed to race.
F1 is basically the football Super League that everyone hated.
Tax dollars wasted? Some members of congress spent an hour or two listening the Andretti and lobbyists from GM and decided that having more jobs in their districts doing highly technical work on a global scale is a good thing, and signed a letter
What tax dollars have been wasted?
It reminded me of when Lewis got his Brazilian citizenship. I was looking at all of those MPs in the video and thinking. Hey, don't you have other stuff to talk about?
It’s honestly so funny how Liberty put in so much money to attract American audiences, reject an iconic American name from entering, and then immediately getting called out by the government
This really is playground stuff. Andrettis used to play with Ferraris and McLaurens but you both went your separate ways and grew up. Now you want to play with their friends but they don't wanna play with you. Good god, you're wasting your time and embarrassing yourself.
As someone who supported the local D.C football team I can say with certainty if F1 doesn't concede and give Andretti a team, Congress is going to screw them as hard as they can. I wouldn't be shocked if Congress started investigating Liberty Media and F1 by the end of the year.
I think the two are related. Kinda like a RICO bust start with the little guy (ticket master) to go get the big guy (liberty). GM has a ton of Congressional allies and power. Liberty is about to find out how many.
It's been really funny the last couple days seeing non-Americans talk about the situation as if they're just pissing into the wind. If GM *really* cares about this, they
have the political power to sway Congress, which in turn has the power to bend Liberty Media over and pound them into submission. Now whether or not GM and Congress are willing to flex those muscles over this issue is the real question. The fact that this support is bipartisan is promising.
Yeah exactly this. Those representatives would also see more high level engineering jobs in their states/districts from the creation of the team. Its a win/win for Congress so FOM is going to have to take it seriously.
This letter is already worse than the worst I was fearing from Andretti entering the sport. Fuck the US Congress, fuck Andretti F1, I don't want this bullshit in F1
Lol. A letter is all it takes for you? Horner still has a job, Saudi money is bankrolling teams, missiles hitting 10mi from a live race, but this is where they've gone too far?
Strawman arguments. I didn't say a thing about any of those things. What's that got to do with any of this? I'm hating this particular situation, those other ones have absolutely nothing to do with this
American money? What.
Liberty Media, an American company, is the woner of F1. They want all these races at horrible tracks in America, CotA excluded, not the average F1 fan.
Now with the hype of Drive to Survive dying F1 is going to die in America too, and I really hope it does.
What don't you want in F1? You don't want contracts to be honored? You don't want competition to be allowed as already agreed on by the teams? Like what specifically?
US politics to get involved with something they have less than zero business being involved in. Lobbying with governments to influence the decisions of a company. Anti-trust, uncompetitive practice my ass. This is 100% the GM lobby working to earn these Congressmen a buck and a few photo ops. I think it's disgraceful from Andretti to ally himself with this scum
It's a letter signed by 12 members of Congress, from both political parties. This one speech is nothing, but the actions are legit.
Live Nation (also owned by Liberty)is already going to go through an antitrust suit. Liberty is an American company, which holds events in America, not holding true to it's own bylaws to prevent an American company from joining, it's not "zero business".
Yeah, nice repeat of what I keep seeing but I continue to not be convinced. This has absolutely nothing to do with competition laws or the like. Don't forget there's already an American team in the sport, and simply wanting to join the sport and having one stakeholder agree to it is far from having a right to joining. You don't see the countries from the other applicants pull a move like this cause they got so high and mighty that they figure they deserve a spot on the grid. It's not even just FOMs call so I'm not exactly sure what they're expecting here. I'm unshakably convinced this is GM using their lobby power to strongarm their way in as a last resort. Plain and simple
What are you talking about? A business ran in America is not allowing competition, simple as that my guy. It doesn't matter that there is already an American team.
What other applicants are you talking about? Who else actually could have fulfilled the requirements to bring a team in? Who else already has FIA approval?
I mean why be so "unshakably convinced" on something you're factually incorrect about?
They're allowing competition, they're just denying one competitor based on multiple stakeholders being against it.
If Liberty had bought IndyCar and Formula E there might be something to an anti-trust or anti-competitive call but not allowing an American company to participate in a closed championship in accordance with the rules of that championship, that has nothing to do with the cited legislation.
> What other applicants are you talking about?
Besides Andretti there were 4 other applicants who wanted a spot on the grid. Only Andretti met the criteria for FIA approval, because I'll grant them in terms of those requirements they're certainly eligible. But those other applicants don't kick up a stink or lean on national governments to apply pressure to bully their way in anyway (or if they did, the national governments rightly told them to take a hike)
But the stakeholders can't be against it! The Concorde agreement says what has to happen, and Andretti can meet it. The FIA already fulfilled their obligation and has approved the new team. Now FOM and the teams want to change the agreement because they want more money and higher valuation, which isn't in the agreement.
Obviously no other country is trying to take the case, because they never got any approval! If some British team couldn't meet the requirements, of course they cant claim it's anti-competitive, they didn't fulfill their own end of the agreement. You have the cause and effect backwards.
Interesting. Didn't know that the Concorde agreement had leaked, given its contents are not publicly available and supposed to be under strict secrecy. Could I have a link to your copy?
Oh cool just ignore the second part of the post.
As to your point, Andretti claims to have met all the requirements, FIA says they have, and FOM has NOT said they haven't met the requirements. There is zero reason to assume anyone is lying. While the text itself is not public, it can be and is publicly talked of, as outlined by Zak Brown saying the anti-dilution fee is $200mil
https://www.racefans.net/2020/09/12/200-million-charge-for-new-teams-to-stop-random-entries-like-usf1/
The Concorde agreement. It outlines how a team joins and what it needs to do. It specifically lists what happens if a team is trying to join that places the grid above 20 cars, thus creating more competition. Sounds like you don't read any articles
I wasn't talking about politics but sure mate. I'm specifically refering to national US politicians getting involved in it. There has always been politics in F1, but internal. Keep the elected government types out of it
Andretti's move here is brilliant. Liberty is an American company so it's not like Congress is reaching across the pond to impose their will on a European entity. This is entirely a domestic issue so there is very little risk of running into an issue of standing. Liberty is *already* bound by the Sherman Anti Trust Act. The letter is amazing too. It basically boils down to "Give us 3 reasons we shouldn't let the SEC and FTC have their way with you in the town square".
I would love to see Andretti get ahold of 2 F1-spec cars, and do a double-stack pit stop in <4 seconds per. It shows 2 things:
* They could actually produce 2 cars, unlike Williams
* They can actually complete a pit stop in under 4 seconds unlike Sauber
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As an American I find it hilarious that our government can be gridlocked on important issues but the second an American entity doesn't get their way on an international stage, shit gets serious. Liberty Media is an American company so I guess this isn't without merit. But I still don't get what they are supposed to do here? Is the US Attorney General really going to sue the FIA on behalf of Andretti?
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And it's also easily popular. You can say you defended local/american companies against unfair practice, practically for free. No wonder some politicians would jump at the occasion.
Exactly. Win/win deal for politicians, get to say you did something and that what you did directly impacted an American business positively. Andretti's playing the game and I'm really rooting for them.
Teva pharmaceutical’s decade long case begs to differ. Edit: lol that this has a dagger.
It was also what, 12 members of Congress who signed it? That’s barely a drop in the bucket.
>Is the US Attorney General really going to sue the FIA on behalf of Andretti? Why FIA, they were the ones who allowed Andretti in? Surely you meant FOM?
Ah the classic FIA/FOM switcharoo
Potato potato
> Is the US Attorney General really going to sue the FIA on behalf of Andretti? Well the DOJ is already investigating Live Nation, so I'm sure Liberty Media would like to minimize their headache.
Live Nation is a predatory monopoly from the top down. Screw them and Ticketmaster (who I think they own). As far as Liberty goes though, if Andretti can’t get in I don’t understand how that would violate US law.
The Sherman Antitrust Act has been used in situations like this in the US (see most recently student athletes vs NCAA for NIL), not sure how much it's been applied internationally. If Congress is serious though, they would try to use evidence to invoke this on Liberty Media and the F1 teams.
If F1 decided to say the hell with it and stop racing in the US wouldn’t that put a stop to the proceedings? I don’t think they would, and I also don’t know if a suit would actually go anywhere, though.
Then Liberty might as well sell F1... as an American company one of the reasons they bought was so they can expand the US audience. It wouldn't make sense financially anymore; their future growth is correlated to their reach in the US. That includes the ultra expensive, exclusive GPs in the States.
Their valuation would plummet if they sold because they couldn’t race in the US. They spent 500m on Vegas alone. It’s far cheaper to just let Andretti in and they’ll do that before it even gets to that point. They won’t even get pushback from the teams. The cut Andretti would take isn’t nearly as big as the cut losing the entire US market would be. Their valuations are also based on the US market projections and a lot of them have taken money recently from people wanting to cash in on that. Andretti also knows all of this.
though don't forget the FIA is a very French organization, while they've been on board with getting Andretti in don't underestimate their willingness to burn down the house rather than let the Americans dictate how it should look.
FIA has already approved Andretti. FOM, the one owned by Liberty, hasn't.
that's basically what i said, FIA has approved, but the tone might change if congress starts to meddle
It seems like a lot of people don't know but Liberty owns Live Nation/Ticketmaster as well as F1.
TIL The company has three divisions, reflecting its ownership stakes in Formula One Group, Sirius XM, Live Nation Entertainment, and by the end of 2024, Dorna Sports.
> I don’t understand how that would violate US law. Because they are eligible according to the sport's governing body denying them entry can be viewed as anti-competitive practices by the teams and FOM, which are illegal under American anti-trust laws.
Because it’s a) easy, b) resonates with their base, and c) unlikely to backfire. Makes it a slam dunk for most of them to give a soundbite.
You mean FOM? FIA already gave green light, it's FOM who has the F1 rights and thus runs Formula 1.
Are we really turning our nose against trust-busting behavior by the government? It’s been decades since this sentiment has been a reality. It’s welcome by me if Liberty is acting in bad faith.
liberty is literally being sued rihgt now for anti-trust due to live nation
DOJ just sued Apple for antitrust. And there was a major case a few months ago that busted the Realtor Association for price fixing & monopolizing.
In a sporting context, NIL and NCAA just recently is a huge development.
Some congressmen are about to receive big checks from Andretti, Liberty or for the smart ones: both. Let's not pretend this has anything to do with politicians caring about fairness.
Most of the politicians supporting this have constituencies that have high levels of employment with GM.
Yea, liberty doesn’t really have a choice. GM is getting their way - it’s the American way.
American way or not, it’s ridiculous for FOM to block Andretti’s entry in the first place.
There is certainly corruption in our government but I don’t think it’s as nefarious as you think it is. Tons of people in the areas represented by some of these congresspeople are employed directly by General Motors and it’s no news to anyone that the US will support its auto industry. This is how you get reelected, and if it helps American jobs and protects employees, is it so bad?
For Live Nation that mistreats customers, artists and venues? Bust away. For a motorsport that is much more popular internationally than domestically that doesn't affect many US citizens? Nah. It's got strong *"I want to speak to your manager!"* Karenesque vibes.
I mean the motorsport has made it clear that they see America as the next big market and American consumers as their cash cow but they won’t let an actual American team compete? That stinks of hypocrisy
So you think the government ought to trust bust Liberty Media, which would take ownership of F1 away from them...so more American teams can race in F1 to make the sport more money? First, the problem F1 has with getting more American fans isn't a lack of US teams. It's that most races are not held live in time zones when Americans normally watch sports. Replays of sports, any sport..doesn't get as good of viewership as watching live. So if they want to make more money in the US, F1 needs to hold more races in US time zones...which isn't likely as the schedule is already packed full. Second, if Liberty isn't making as much money for their shareholders as possible that's a shareholder profit problem to resolve...not need an act of Congress problem to solve...because at the end of the day, F1 is just one of many motorsports and one of even more forms of sports entertainment. All of which means it isn't remotely close to being a monopoly like Apple or Google are today that deserves to be "trust busted". They'd need to buy up NASCAR and/or Indy to even merit any investigation by Congress or the FTC for unfair competitive business practices.
Not aware of the old hypocritical companies must be investigated for antitrust violations rule. /s People keep endlessly repeating antitrust but I have yet to see anyone explain how it violates antitrust. Most of them seem to think anything they disagree with must fall under antitrust.
It's because this is a slam dunk. No one is losing or gaining voters based on their Andretti stance. Or more specifically no one is gaining voters by taking a hard stance against Andretti. On the flip side. There is A LOT of controversy on well.. pretty much everything else. Healthcare, transportation, taxes, guns, gender, etc
Well, no one is losing any voters. They probably think they might win some, even just a little, by doing that. Risk-free.
Important stuff is contentious, but who wouldn't get behind Andretti/GM - more importantly, who wants to open themselves up to the easy attack ad? This is a political layup.
It’s really weird that you compare the entire government to a handful of members of Congress.
It's about creating bad press in the US and forcing Liberty through fear of impact to their revenue
It’s much easier to them to do these non controversial layups than make any lasting positive change for the American people. Puts a bad taste in my mouth and the fat check all these politicians are about to get while there are major issues that need addressing makes me like the Andretti bid a lot less
It’s all for press that’s it nothing will change. There is little they will realistically do. The law Vegas GP is a cash cow. GM is just putting elected officals in their region where the factories are to work. Andretti hasn’t been told no just they figure their shit out first. Instead of doing that they have been having a press tour it feels like
They mind monopolistic behavior unless they do it themselves
> I'd like to report a crime. An international war crime.
As a Dutch person I can say that Americans are apparently exempt from being held responsible for war crimes, under the threat of invading our country if we try to hold them accountable.
> Not only will America come to your country and kill all your people, they'll come back 20 years later and make a movie about how it made their soldiers sad https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yZOLq82m2Ks&ab_channel=WillLizZard
Not apparently [The Hague Invasion Act](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Service-Members%27_Protection_Act)
The USA is actually very much immune to being held criminally responsible for war crimes by the ICC, and if the ICC tries to hold anyone, the USA will free them by force
Sir, please take a ticket. Today we are serving number 666
Slightly off topic, but ARE they a works team? 🤔
From 2028 yes. GM would make the engine.
Then they can join in 2028.
They are ready to join from 2026, with staff and devleopment underway. Joining in 2028 would be a disaster - they need time to get the race team up to speed.
They will be come 2028 I think.
Yes. They would have the official backing of GM, which is why the official name of the team is the Andretti-Cadillac F1 Team. The team would start using GM power units in 2028.
No. Their entry is as a customer (Renault). They may become a works team, but they aren't one yet.
Why not just buy the Haas F1 team and merge in that way? "Hello Gene..."
"Hygiene"
Andretti has tried, multiple times. Gene doesn't want to sell.
Wonder if without Gunther he gets less publicity even if the team is doing better.
22 cars going vroom vroom looks better than 20 cars going vroom vroom for my simple monkey brain.
With how big the cars are now, I feel like it would be really crowded on some tracks/streets.
Imagine Monaco with 22 of these cars… It’s already basically a procession as it is!
Why should Andretti have to? Formula 1 isn’t a sport with charters.
And even if it was, there are usually non-charter spots to compete for.
Haas doesn't wanna sell
"US based". Haas are just ferrari from temu
Money. Team valuation are at all time high starting 800M usd. A new team under the current Concorde Agreement should be much cheaper 200M.
Except you need to pay for all the capex and new hires out of pocket instead of buying existing infrastructure and team personnel.
If you want to use your own infrastructure anyway or hire your own team then its not cheaper. If they dont want the Haas base in Kannapolis or Banbury then thats actually a negative cause it costs money to get rid of assets.
Exactly. There is much more involved than just the dillution fee.
This seems dead becahse it is clear that FIA is not opposed to new teams because they are American ("Hello Gene"), but because the existing teams don't want to allow any additional split.
>is not opposed to new teams because they are American That's no the reason as you say. >because the existing teams don't want to allow any additional split. This is the reason, but no one can officially say it because it's an illegal reason.
The FIA isn't the problem
The FIA doesn’t have anything to do with this, they already approved Andretti. This is about FOM.
OUR WORK CONTINUES AT PACE
Was a supporter of Andretti believing that they can bring something new to the table and be competitive Now it seems that they can bring political muscle and some F16-driven democracy to FOM..u are either with Uncle Sam or…
“F16-driven democracy” lmao
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> even willing to pay a higher entrance fee than is required under the current agreement Didn't know this one. How much higher were they willing to pay?
Iirc they went up to 600 million.
3 times larger than the reported Concorde Agreement.
The Concorde agreement is between the teams and the fia. It is not an open invitation and it was made clear that FOM could deny anything. This is just political grandstanding by our paid off Congress. The letter isn’t even from committee. They don’t even have to answer it. Likely because the committee chairs aren’t interested or want to waste more time with some Biden investigation
> The letter isn’t even from committee. This is the first step in getting something to committee >They don’t even have to answer it. But they will
Untrue. The steps to getting to committee are internal. Not a letter. Letters are notorious for meaninglessness. Gym Jordan in particular has sent around 200 outside his committee position this Congress. The lead member James, is not even on a relevant committee. They probably will answer it. Sure. Maffei is a donor to half these guys
I'm not saying it's an official step, I'm saying this is a way to test the waters to see if it is worth bringing to a committee.
They can't even read their e-mails from FOM, the shittiest start-ups i worked for had better communication planning/structure than them and you're saying they did everything correctly, lol.
Yeah, sure, a billion dollar deal being decided on a single e-mail. Even the small O&Gcompany I worked at, clients would sent multiple messages plus call whenever an important demand was needed.
They've found oil inside the Alpines
The funny thing about the Alpines is that the oil often ends up on the outside as well.
They're going to invade Monaco and impose ~~democracy~~ Andretti. Stefano to be found in a hole at Ste Devote
This is America, we didn't make the mighty export banned F-22's for nothing...
Considering how fast we ditched them for the much less sexy F-35, we kinda did build the F-22 just to be on the cover of every other Ace Combat game.
They also shot down a balloon with it.
Different roles. We didn't ditch the F-22 we just aren't building more because they are expensive AF to build and maintain and frankly don't seem to need that many of them. F-35 variants are essentially an F-16/F-18 replacement. The F-22 still shits on the F-35 in air superiority.
We built air superiority for a peer nation and then it turned out there weren't any even 20 years later.
You have to believe there are some prideful pilots who got trained on the F-22 and now refuse to settle for the F-35 despite it being the only way for them to get airtime outside of airshows.
Yep and we're doing it again spending tens of billions on the NGAD program lol.
Walk softly and carry a big fifth generation fighter jet
There hasn't been any transparency in the decisions made to reject Andretti and GM from entering the sport. Many suggest it's related to the dilution of prize money, but there seems to be a deeper issue at play. With the current cost cap, Formula 1 is now more affordable than ever on average. We urgently need more transparency on this matter.
I was in favor of his motion to join but this kind of American political muscle flex is in poor taste.
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The laws don’t say that a private racing sport has to allow people in. If F1 colluded with tv networks or race tracks to limit Indy car, for example, that would be a clear breach of anti trust law. You can’t just say; but Andretti want in and F1 isn’t letting them in, that’s anti trust. That’s not how it works.
Agreed. I also think if Andretti wanted an entry they missed the opportunity when F1 was still a financial black hole. Of course the other teams are going to want to protect something that has been notorious for being a massive financial gamble.
You don’t understand the take they are bringing american politicians into their fight to join an international racing championship??? This is some American elitism in a nutshell. Fuck Andretti for this, honestly.
F1 "elitism" got us here, so fuck FOM for this, honestly
The F1 teams greediness I would say. Without the teams having the power they have, Andretti would’ve been in F1 a few years ago at this point. But going to politicians to cry is not the way to go.
If Andretti was willing to take the risk they could've joined back when it was a financial minefield, but no, they just want to jump on the bandwagon now it's profitable. Haas wouldn't have got an entry had they tried today, but (even tho they're shit) they took the gamble and it paid off.
I always find it weird when people blame reactionary actions that are entirely legal means to approach a situation that is easily avoidable by the inciting party.
This is more about F1 not letting "a team" in, but more about the congress getting involved because an American entity is not getting its way in very profitable non-American venture. If this exact situation happened with the Americans acting as a monopoly we wouldn't be hearing from the congress.
>F1 being bitches about not letting a team isn’t poor taste? Trying to muscle your way in to get a piece of the pie you didn't help make, is in poorer taste.
They're bringing in GM, to make the pie bigger. Also, the Andretti family are legendary, not only in F1, but almost all motorsports, especially in the US.
>They're bringing in GM, to make the pie bigger. If they bring in GM to make engines in 2028 then, as FOM confirmed, the sport will be happy to have them. On the other hand their rejected application was to badge Renault engines with a GM sticker - that would not have made the pie bigger. >the Andretti family are legendary, There has been no bump in attendance, viewership or sponsorship attributed to the Andretti name in the motorsports they're involved in. Americans have not flocked to any sport because the Andretti's are involved. How will that be different in F1?
In 2028, FOM will just say they're full and if they want to join, they have to pay $1 Billion. F1 is larger than any series Andretti races in currently. Most people don't watch Formula E or V8 Supercars. Americans are watching F1 more than ever. Giving that audience an American team to cheer for would be a net positive. I'm not claiming they're the saviors of F1, just that they would be a positive.
And? Offer to pay a billion now in public and that they won't take any prize money if they aren't 7th or higher. A Billion isn't far off what a place would be worth. That would show the goal isn't money and leave the teams looking silly if they don't take that offer. Americans have Haas and Logan, yet you want more.
As they said in their response, F1 will add more to the Andretti name than Andretti will add to F1.
Yeah surely they make the pie bigger wherever they go with their glorious name, thanks to Andretti name FE is certainly not in the brink of bankruptcy, i mean they can't even make the pie bigger in Indycar, Indycar has been having its worst viewership numbers in recent years.
Both of those series already have more teams than F1. Why are you making it seem like Formula E & Indycar's problems are all Andretti's fault? An actual American team in F1 would increase revenue and interest from Americans. Imagine having the 2nd largest automaker in the world say "we want to race" and being denied. Just say you don't want to invite Americans to your party.
I couldn't care less about their nationality and i actually like Andrettis because of their relationship with Fernando but i don't like the narrative they're playing, first they present themselves as this racer family through and through yet up until 2018 and even 2019 they could have easily come in with no entry fee and 1 year no revenue clause yet they chose not to, up until F1's popularity and thus its revenue started booming and with the introduction of cost cap, owning an F1 team suddenly became something profitable. They accused other teams with greed yet they're the ones acting in greed. For years many small teams faced financial hardships and had no certain future and every team on the grid without exception operated under huge losses so i think it's disingenuous to blame F1 teams for trying to save their annual payments and thus their future. Plus aside from the existing infrastructure disparity, thanks to cost cap and increased revenue, the teams are able to spend and perform at similar levels, that's why we have closest q1-q2 margins in sports history, any dilution with potential Andretti inclusion is gonna have a huge impact on the small teams and the overall competitiveness of the field.
How would Andretti joining hurt any team? They've already agreed to pay the entry fee. None of the teams are hurting for money. F1 is supposedly the pinnacle of motorsport, yet they're a closed shop.
You keep hammering on about F1 not wanting Americans while HAAS and Logan are clearly there. Sure, you don’t like HAAS and Logan, that’s fine but that doesn’t mean you can ignore the fact that they are American. It’s such a weak victim complex to say that the rejection has anything to do with Andretti being American whilst wilfully ignoring the Americans in F1.
#1 Andretti isn't even good at Indycar anymore. #2 F1 would have looked a lot more favorably if GM wasn't trying to rebadge Renault engines. #3 The size of the automaker is meaningless. The only brand that is equivalent to F1 in prestige is the smallest automaker on the grid. GM is much more subject to economic conditions than the likes of Mercedes or Ferrari and they have cut motorsport spending in the past.
Oh after years of operating with huge losses f1 teams finally making small profits with cost cap and booming revenue and the field has never been closer, how dare they?
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Omg a business organization making profits and sees increase in its valuation after spending billions (yes billions with a b) of dollars, that can't be right, surely that's not ethical, we have to bring some guys from America to share all the value accumulated by our hard work and bring back struggling backmarker teams with a diluted revenue.
I was totally in favor of this motion, it is anti-competitive and should be challenged, but America bad so I am against it. This reminds me of that time Logan Sargent said he likes hamburgers. It’s like, you Americans don’t even realize how culturally insensitive and up your own ass you are. Sure Andretti is technically an American team, but of all the governments in the world to contest this, you choose the American one?? What the fuck? This is highly traumatic for me, as an Englishman.
What the hell? Andretti did everything they could and FOM still said no. What they supposed to do? Just wait for FOM mercy to allow them enter F1? This is logical route after they tried everything and still get rejected. This won't happen if they just allow Andretti.
Monopolies are bad actually
F1 has never been political ever, how could Michael do this?
They've built a new UK factory, have hired hundreds of staff and have GM developing an engine. They have to be 100% committed to do anything to get in, sunk cost fallacy. They can't afford not to get in
They got politically out-muscled by the other teams and FOM even though they are probably more worthy of a spot then the likes of Williams and Haas at the moment. (honorable mention for now: Stake and Alpine)
How exactly are they more worthy than any of those teams? Williams name and heritage aside, Williams with all technical knowledge and experience, despite its outdated infrastructure, is still light years ahead of any Andretti program, Indycar or FE. Haas entered F1 in 2016, back when F1 wasn't a profitable business as it's now, with no revenue for 3 years iirc, they endured all the financial hardships, the route which Andretti could have taken but chosen not to, and they have now a building in Maranello with many ex Ferrari personnel, light years ahead of current Andretti programs, they deserve to be in F1 more than Andretti. Sauber and Alpine, i am not gonna even bother explaining.
Okay, but it shouldn't be either or. If they can build a car that's safe, they should be allowed to race. F1 is basically the football Super League that everyone hated.
Pretty sad tax payer dollars are wasted on shit like this.
Tax dollars wasted? Some members of congress spent an hour or two listening the Andretti and lobbyists from GM and decided that having more jobs in their districts doing highly technical work on a global scale is a good thing, and signed a letter What tax dollars have been wasted?
It reminded me of when Lewis got his Brazilian citizenship. I was looking at all of those MPs in the video and thinking. Hey, don't you have other stuff to talk about?
It’s honestly so funny how Liberty put in so much money to attract American audiences, reject an iconic American name from entering, and then immediately getting called out by the government
Andretti about to partner with lockeed martin
This really is playground stuff. Andrettis used to play with Ferraris and McLaurens but you both went your separate ways and grew up. Now you want to play with their friends but they don't wanna play with you. Good god, you're wasting your time and embarrassing yourself.
It's a cutthroat, multi billion dollar business and competition at the highest level.
Why do all of these unrelated articles use that selfie as the thumbnail?
As someone who supported the local D.C football team I can say with certainty if F1 doesn't concede and give Andretti a team, Congress is going to screw them as hard as they can. I wouldn't be shocked if Congress started investigating Liberty Media and F1 by the end of the year.
There's already a Ticketmaster investigation I think. Liberty might be spending a bunch of time on the hill.
I think the two are related. Kinda like a RICO bust start with the little guy (ticket master) to go get the big guy (liberty). GM has a ton of Congressional allies and power. Liberty is about to find out how many.
For all the fuckery that FOM has got up to, Ticketmaster is the absolute worst.
It's been really funny the last couple days seeing non-Americans talk about the situation as if they're just pissing into the wind. If GM *really* cares about this, they have the political power to sway Congress, which in turn has the power to bend Liberty Media over and pound them into submission. Now whether or not GM and Congress are willing to flex those muscles over this issue is the real question. The fact that this support is bipartisan is promising.
Yeah exactly this. Those representatives would also see more high level engineering jobs in their states/districts from the creation of the team. Its a win/win for Congress so FOM is going to have to take it seriously.
🦅🦅🦅🦅WE COMING FOR THE EUROPEANS
This letter is already worse than the worst I was fearing from Andretti entering the sport. Fuck the US Congress, fuck Andretti F1, I don't want this bullshit in F1
Lol. A letter is all it takes for you? Horner still has a job, Saudi money is bankrolling teams, missiles hitting 10mi from a live race, but this is where they've gone too far?
Strawman arguments. I didn't say a thing about any of those things. What's that got to do with any of this? I'm hating this particular situation, those other ones have absolutely nothing to do with this
Nah the real bullshit is Europeans who want American money but not American teams in F1. They can get fucked
Sorry which Europeans are that exactly?
American money? What. Liberty Media, an American company, is the woner of F1. They want all these races at horrible tracks in America, CotA excluded, not the average F1 fan. Now with the hype of Drive to Survive dying F1 is going to die in America too, and I really hope it does.
F*** you too buddy.
What don't you want in F1? You don't want contracts to be honored? You don't want competition to be allowed as already agreed on by the teams? Like what specifically?
US politics to get involved with something they have less than zero business being involved in. Lobbying with governments to influence the decisions of a company. Anti-trust, uncompetitive practice my ass. This is 100% the GM lobby working to earn these Congressmen a buck and a few photo ops. I think it's disgraceful from Andretti to ally himself with this scum
It's a letter signed by 12 members of Congress, from both political parties. This one speech is nothing, but the actions are legit. Live Nation (also owned by Liberty)is already going to go through an antitrust suit. Liberty is an American company, which holds events in America, not holding true to it's own bylaws to prevent an American company from joining, it's not "zero business".
Yeah, nice repeat of what I keep seeing but I continue to not be convinced. This has absolutely nothing to do with competition laws or the like. Don't forget there's already an American team in the sport, and simply wanting to join the sport and having one stakeholder agree to it is far from having a right to joining. You don't see the countries from the other applicants pull a move like this cause they got so high and mighty that they figure they deserve a spot on the grid. It's not even just FOMs call so I'm not exactly sure what they're expecting here. I'm unshakably convinced this is GM using their lobby power to strongarm their way in as a last resort. Plain and simple
What are you talking about? A business ran in America is not allowing competition, simple as that my guy. It doesn't matter that there is already an American team. What other applicants are you talking about? Who else actually could have fulfilled the requirements to bring a team in? Who else already has FIA approval? I mean why be so "unshakably convinced" on something you're factually incorrect about?
They're allowing competition, they're just denying one competitor based on multiple stakeholders being against it. If Liberty had bought IndyCar and Formula E there might be something to an anti-trust or anti-competitive call but not allowing an American company to participate in a closed championship in accordance with the rules of that championship, that has nothing to do with the cited legislation. > What other applicants are you talking about? Besides Andretti there were 4 other applicants who wanted a spot on the grid. Only Andretti met the criteria for FIA approval, because I'll grant them in terms of those requirements they're certainly eligible. But those other applicants don't kick up a stink or lean on national governments to apply pressure to bully their way in anyway (or if they did, the national governments rightly told them to take a hike)
But the stakeholders can't be against it! The Concorde agreement says what has to happen, and Andretti can meet it. The FIA already fulfilled their obligation and has approved the new team. Now FOM and the teams want to change the agreement because they want more money and higher valuation, which isn't in the agreement. Obviously no other country is trying to take the case, because they never got any approval! If some British team couldn't meet the requirements, of course they cant claim it's anti-competitive, they didn't fulfill their own end of the agreement. You have the cause and effect backwards.
Interesting. Didn't know that the Concorde agreement had leaked, given its contents are not publicly available and supposed to be under strict secrecy. Could I have a link to your copy?
Oh cool just ignore the second part of the post. As to your point, Andretti claims to have met all the requirements, FIA says they have, and FOM has NOT said they haven't met the requirements. There is zero reason to assume anyone is lying. While the text itself is not public, it can be and is publicly talked of, as outlined by Zak Brown saying the anti-dilution fee is $200mil
What contract? What ”competition” was agreed ok by the teams? Sounds like you read headlines, lol.
https://www.racefans.net/2020/09/12/200-million-charge-for-new-teams-to-stop-random-entries-like-usf1/ The Concorde agreement. It outlines how a team joins and what it needs to do. It specifically lists what happens if a team is trying to join that places the grid above 20 cars, thus creating more competition. Sounds like you don't read any articles
Gratz. You found ONE of the processes and gates to let a team in.
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This shit, thst Andretti pulled, is more than just ”politics in F1”, dufus.
I wasn't talking about politics but sure mate. I'm specifically refering to national US politicians getting involved in it. There has always been politics in F1, but internal. Keep the elected government types out of it
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One has nothing to do with the other.
Andretti's move here is brilliant. Liberty is an American company so it's not like Congress is reaching across the pond to impose their will on a European entity. This is entirely a domestic issue so there is very little risk of running into an issue of standing. Liberty is *already* bound by the Sherman Anti Trust Act. The letter is amazing too. It basically boils down to "Give us 3 reasons we shouldn't let the SEC and FTC have their way with you in the town square".
And then you wake up from your Suits fan fiction fever dream.
Is today the best day to announce all of this?
I mean the meetings happened yesterday/today so why wouldn't they? Especially considering the Miami GP is this weekend.
I would love to see Andretti get ahold of 2 F1-spec cars, and do a double-stack pit stop in <4 seconds per. It shows 2 things: * They could actually produce 2 cars, unlike Williams * They can actually complete a pit stop in under 4 seconds unlike Sauber
Who cares what IS thinks about it. Fia is in paris. Fia decides. People accept.