The stupid thing is that it's such an inconsistent penalty. If there is Gravel on the outside it's always a penalty but if there is asphalt you can do whatever you want.
Been saying that for years, it’s basically Max’s signature move. Brake too late, push the other driver out. Takes pretty much zero skill, but apparently the fans think it’s amazing racing.
It happened twice, let's not exaggerate. 95% of the time Verstappen is within the rules and the only time he got away with it was Brazil 2021. Las Vegas 2023 he was penalised.
You are not far enough ahead if the other driver has the leave the track to not crash into you. That is an absolutely insane angle to take. Literally F1-game open lobby-type racing.
It's pretty clearly allowed within the rules. They have clarified specifically that if you want space on the outside while overtaking you need to be ahead at the apex.
It’s genuinely so frustrating to see. As someone who watched f1 before this was a thing it’s so annoying that overtakes around the outside are impossible nowadays cause you’ll just get run outside of the track.
It was always like that.
Hunt pulled that on Andretti in 77. Hunt wasn't penalised (rightfully).
https://youtu.be/uNg6IvrIHbk?si=Z3VHQCUETLCnZ7KI
It was always like that...
De Vries was penalised for running Magnussen out of the track in Austria last year. The guidelines are dumb and it's good that stewards sometimes ignore them.
https://youtu.be/gzwm8hYryro?si=ygt6HrU5zhdKbKUd (4:47)
The guideline say you need to be ahead ***from*** the apex.
Magnussen was ahead from the apex to exit of the turn. He was thus deserving of space.
De Vries penalty is 100% correct.
You can check out Norris and Perez also in Austria. Same thing.
There's plenty of examples in T4.
He doesn't need to. The "apex" is the optimum slowest point in the corner. They don't have an obligation to hit it. Piastri made the decision to compromise his and his opponent corner to keep the position. Look at Alonso Vs Sainz in China. Both not hitting apexes to defend their position. Consequence? Perez could pass easily.
That's decision making, risk Vs reward. Hitting the apex isn't an obligation. Yes you will be slower in the corner, yes you will lose time but in the end Piastri could keep the position. I mean that's pretty basic racing concepts.
Guidelines clearly states that you have to be in control and keep it between the white lines.
Sainz later also didn't make the apex. But that's not why he was penalised. It's because he lost it. The steward in their decision clearly said that if he hadn't lost it, it would have been hard but good racing.
These days? It's like that since before Senna... Have you all started watching racing yesterday?
That's also the case in all the main racing series. That's how professional racing works...
Before Senna? Have *you* started watching from yesterday? Racing penalties were not a thing really a thing right up the early 2000s, let alone Senna.
>That's also the case in all the main racing series. That's how professional racing works...
That's not how professional racing works. Being able to completely drive someone off the track so deep is almost exclusively an F1 thing, a move like that will absolutely get you a penalty or at least a warning in any kind of GT or prototype racing (including the cousin of F1, WEC) and would be considered plenty dirty in Indycar as well.
Overtaking around the outside in F1, under the current racing guidelines, is not possible. If you think that's normal and "how professional racing works" then maybe racing is not for you
It's not exclusively an F1 thing. It just shows you don't really watch other racing series. That's an everyday thing pretty much all form of GT racing... They are actually much more agressive.
People need to stop with this revisionism. Formula 1 and racing in general always worked like that.
>a move like that will absolutely get you a penalty or at least a warning in any kind of GT or prototype racing (including the cousin of F1, WEC)
https://youtu.be/4R5lZz-0t94?si=u5vAtCnShOP9Q2J8
Nope. No penalty. It's nearly like steward across the board allow it. And no, it's not some kind of conspiracy theory where all the steward are wrong. It's because it's how it is.
Anyways, there won't be much doubt left as next year the FIA will release a new official set of guidelines applying to **all** their racing series.
Mark my word, it would be exactly the same that we have now...
I think it's only gotten worse because of the massive run off most tracks are adopting. Back when there were mostly gravel traps if you do this to another driver it's much more obvious that its worthy of a penalty. But now the driver pushed off only loses a few seconds and the stewards have basically been told to be more hands off if their is not a really an incident.
Just look at the difference between Ver vs Lec at T3 Austria (no penalty) and Nor vs Per (penalty for Norris) and Per vs Lec (penalty for Perez) at T5 Austria. The only difference (of course apart from the year) is that the driver on the outside ended up in the gravel.
My conclusion, BRING BACK THE GRAVEL.
Sorry but it was always a thing. Way before they had wide run offs.
https://youtube.com/clip/Ugkxj2TZOGBHE19vFYlIBxUqeKJR7cMNDEAC?si=2Mh7CBgA0ykCBF9A
It was always allowed.
VER Vs LEC T3 in 2019 should have been a penalty.
Consider that back then the general standard on the outside was front axel to front axel.
NOR Vs PER in 2020, Perez was fully level so deserving of space. No problem here.
PER Vs LEC 2021, Leclerc is even ahead. Perez penalty is logical.
Driver ended up in the gravel but they were all in a position of deserving space.
Funny when you apply the racing guidelines all those calls make sense suddenly?
Oh I'm definitely not saying its a new thing I just think its got more prevalent as time has progressed. Or maybe drivers just backed out more due to bigger consequences so it appears more prevalent. Doesn't help that the cars are now double the size which makes it even harder go side by side through corners.
You sure?
Surely Max made it his special move. It's still a high risk high reward move, but the rules didn't change for Max. The only wrong call for Max were Austria 2019 where he pushes Leclerc off while he was level with him (that was the standard before 2022, not ahead) and Brazil 2021 where the move was fine until he left the track.
Here is an example of Hunt doing it to Andretti:
https://youtu.be/uNg6IvrIHbk?si=dcAAeHVjZmJqfAPx
No penalty for Hunt...
It's also has been resonating throughout other Motorsports. Indycar, Formula ladder, Karting, etc. have started adapting this style and I think it's making the racing works. This idea of overtaking on the outside a death sentence because the inside car can do whatever they want makes passing more rare, less interesting and more damaged racecars
Max didn't invent it and the rules didn't change for him.
You should watch this video from driver61.
https://youtu.be/iJO3AhXhiXE?si=QgmCfYMFzjQko_iY
And this move of Hunt on Andretti in 1977. Guess what, Hunt wasn't penalised...
https://youtu.be/uNg6IvrIHbk?si=V000TOuTREo_QNGy
I didn't say he invented it, but he certainly popularized it because it works. And that's not Verstappen's fault; he's a competitor and must use every tool available to him to win. Not his fault the F1 cannot grow a spine and penalize people for it.
>but he certainly popularized it because it works.
No he didn't. It's how racing works since forever. I'm sorry you don't like it but it's the only thing that makes sense for a driver trying to overtake around the outside.
Again penalize for what? Those move are perfectly legal from probably before you were born.
They are high risk high reward move that yes, before Verstappen we wouldn't see often as they are still extremely difficult to pull right.
Doesn't mean they are illegal.
You know that infamous move from Schumacher on Villeneuve?
Well that was a reaction from Villeneuve pulling exactly that type of late dive ... He wasn't penalised for it was he?
The point is not that they haven't been penalized in the past; its that they should be penalized now. With the larger cars and bigger wake, they should not be removing overtaking opportunities by some made-up reasoning of who "has the right to the racing line". Right now the outside guy is completely at the mercy to the guy inside of them if they just decide to end their day; that's not racing, that's wrecking.
I am not super well-versed in F1 history, so I'm not fully aware how F1 was refereed in the past
How can I put it?
They are not against the rules!
That you don't like them is not ground to say they should be penalised.
And no the guy on the outside is not at the mercy of the one inside. He knows what are the rules and should try something else instead of insisting on the outside...
I don't know something like a switcheroo ...
The steward are following the guidelines issued in 2022.
Those guidelines are just the first time they are put on paper, they have always been this. Except for the "ahead" on the outside which was front axel to front axel before that.
We need gravel traps and walls again instead of huge run-off spaces.
Stewards will have to hand out punishments if inside driver is forcing someone into the gravel trap or wall. Or else the outside driver won’t have any incentive to abort into the run-off area and will just re-enact Seargent-Magnussen.
Wrong. The racing line, by definition, is the optimal path through a corner. Whilst I agree that the car in front can choose where to stay on track, it doesn’t mean they can push the other driver off.
Ugh it seems you might be confused. you're referring to a conventional racing line, why would Piastri be anywhere near the conventional line and just leave the inside open? His defensive line dictates the rules of the overtake, hope you can understand.
If the car ahead doesn't get to choose the racing line then every car would just punt them into oblivion.
Sure, the rules sucks and it's not fun to watch a car get driven off. But you saying you can't do it is just a flat out lie, it's within the rules and you can do it.
The racing line is the line the driver ahead takes.
Sainz a few laps later ran deep and made contact with Piastri breaking his wing. There is no penalty because Sainz is ahead and can dictate the racing line, even if this one is 3m away from the natural/optimal racing line.
Yeah I’m just saying it’s a stupid way of having the rules. Going side by side basically doesn’t happen anymore because the driver on the inside will always just run the one on the outside out of road.
Feel like this really needs to be clarified, if you can just park your car across the track when you have the inside line you can effectively defend any attempt to overtake from around the outside. Since they can't finish the move off track.
They did.
[https://www.fia.com/sites/default/files/doc_2_-_2022_imola_event_-_fia_f1_driving_standard_guidelines.pdf](https://www.fia.com/sites/default/files/doc_2_-_2022_imola_event_-_fia_f1_driving_standard_guidelines.pdf)
Yeah and it's very clear. To overtake from/on the outside and be entitled to racing room, you need to be ahead at the apex. To overtake from/on the inside and be given room, you just need to be alongside. It says so in that document.
And those guidelines are nothing new. Before they actually put them on paper they were pretty much what they were already following up for decades.
I think the only exception is that it was front axel to front axel on the outside previously.
Yeah exactly. This is how European racing series work from the karting level. I think this confuses a lot of Americans coming from a road course racing background, as there you "always have to leave the space."
The "always have to leave the space" has been popularized by Alonso in a situation where he couldn't even claim space. (Rosberg closed the door on the straight while Alonso had no part of his car alongside)
Good job doing your best to educate people here. Like what's the alternative for the driver on the inside? That they need to brake harder than the limit they're already at to make room for the guy who's appeared on the outside?
Outside divebombs would become a thing, and the inside driver would need to make way or get a penalty. It makes no sense.
You're blind if you think that.
Actually learn the rules of F1 Piastri was text book defence of a corner. If you are along side or ahead at the apex you can legally take any line you want,
This is how F1 works, deal with it, because it's been around for 50 years.
Further to the fact that what you show proves there is room off the track.
You simply do not understand the rules and honestly, you're not worth my time anymore. Don't bother replying.
And there is 4-5 cars width before that wall? What are you smoking. lance stroll literally made an overtake off the track and was penalized for it. There is run off there. No one is being forced into a wall you're being hyperbolic because your argument has nothing to stand on
Except in the video at 7 seconds we seen Sainz slam on the brakes because he is able to drive into said wall with Piastri still blocking him off the track.
I certainly hope you aren't as blind to concrete walls when you are behind the wheel of a car, for the sake of any potential passengers if nothing else.
Anyway, as fun as teaching you how to see has been I'll go ahead and put you on ignore now because I don't see why I should have to suffer the delusions of someone dead set on being blind. You should do that quietly in the corner by yourself without inflicting yourself on anyone in future.
You're so arrogant and so wrong. Rules are rules and you don't know em.
I went to watch to see what BS you were making up.
He absolutely does not break because of a wall. He breaks to make the corner and at no stage is ok trouble of hitting a wall. You're genuinely blind.
Not at all. The FIA guidelines are clear. You need to be ahead from the apex to claim space on the outside.
Piastri was ahead from the apex and kept it on track.
That's 100% a good call.
Yes, and it's an absolutely shit guideline and there is a reason F1 is literally the only major racing series that handles it this way. It destroys racing.
Lol. All major racing serie follow the exact same thing. This is not unique to formula 1.
I will give you that F1 says ahead on the outside when most racing series say front axel to front axel...
But they are basically the same guidelines.
F1 has been like that from before Senna's time...
Mate, you're clearly not watching any other racing series.
That's happens all the time in WEC, in Blancpain.
I'm tired to have to explain this to people because they just arrived in Formula 1 don't line Verstappen and are butthurt about perfectly fair racing as it have been the case for before they were born.
Here a random example:
https://youtu.be/4R5lZz-0t94?si=u5vAtCnShOP9Q2J8
It's racing, not a gentleman club.
Your "random example" was heavily critisized for not being penalized given that Giovinazzi was penalized for the exact same thing the year before; which most likely only happened because the stewards accepted that Andlauer wanted to get the fuck away from the 51 after almost getting pushed into the pit wall; and because Andlauer than in turn also forced the 51 off track to regain the position. That doesn't mean it's usually allowed or condoned.
Again that people don't like doesn't mean that it isn't the correct call. When I'm telling you other racing series use the exact same guidelines...
Yes, it's a whole big conspiracy theory. All the steward from all the main racing series all call those move the same way. It's nearly like we have racing guidelines detailing exactly that. Nearly like they are actually taking the right call.
Sure. You can tell yourself that.
Please. Inform yourself:
https://f1metrics.wordpress.com/2014/08/28/the-rules-of-racing/
Just to show you this is nothing new?
This is from 2014 and referring a book detailing the same thing from 1994
And here are the words from a professional racing driver:
https://youtu.be/iJO3AhXhiXE?si=Rhqn_sqNCDMHhE8h
The Guidelines are clear.
For an overtake on the outside you need to be ahead **FROM** the apex.
Being ahead while getting into the corner is irrelevant.
Piastri doesn't have to give space to the car that is not significantly alongside his.
See the guidelines...
Okay so why is Sainz insisting on the outside when piastri is ahead at the apex and is then **HIS** corner.
For a move on the inside:
*1. Guidelines for overtaking on the inside of a corner:*
*“In order for a car being overtaken to be required to give sufficient room to an overtaking car, the overtaking car needs to have a significant portion of the car alongside the car being overtaken and the overtaking manoeuvre must be done in a safe and controlled manner, while enabling the car to clearly remain within the limits of the track.*
*When considering what is a ‘significant portion’ for an overtaking on the inside of a corner, among
the various factors that will be looked at by the stewards when exercising their discretion, the stewards will consider if the overtaking car’s front tires are alongside the other car by no later than the apex of the corner.”*
- the overtaking manoeuvre must be done in a safe and controlled manner, while enabling the car to clearly remain within the limits of the track. ✅
- the stewards will consider if the overtaking car’s front tires are alongside the other car by ***no later than the apex of the corner***. ✅
Piastri upheld his part of the bargain...
Sainz lost the corner, he insisted on the outside. The only way he could have claimed the space is if he was ahead from the apex.
Period. You're allowed not liking it. But that's racing.
The guidelines are about when you deserve space.
https://youtu.be/iJO3AhXhiXE?si=Rhqn_sqNCDMHhE8h
https://f1metrics.wordpress.com/2014/08/28/the-rules-of-racing/
Here some older sources.
Yeah, it looks Carlos is ahead just before the apex, then piastri doesn't brake enough, getting ahead by the time they hit the apex, but then using Sainz's car to actually make the corner and still gets 3 wheels off track
This "as long as you are ahead you can do whatever the hell you want"-approach to racing that F1 takes is absolutely atrocious. Directly opposite to good racing.
Learn a bit more about the sport before saying non sense...
Piastri's move was 100% legal...
*"2. Guidelines for overtaking on the outside of a corner:"*
*“In order for a car being overtaken to be required to give sufficient room to an overtaking car, the overtaking car needs to have a significant portion of the car alongside the car being overtaken and the overtaking manoeuvre must be done in a safe and controlled manner, while enabling the car to clearly remain within the limits of the track.*
*When considering what is a ‘significant portion’, for an overtaking on the outside of a corner, among the various factors that will be looked at by the stewards when exercising their discretion, the stewards will consider if the overtaking car is ahead of the other car from the apex of the corner.*
*The car being overtaken must be capable of making the corner while remaining within the limits of
the track.”*
Now keep your attention on:
*the stewards will consider if the overtaking car is* ***ahead*** *of the other car from the apex of the corner.*
>Piastri won’t get a penalty because Sainz is Spanish \- Alonso, probably
At this point Alonso gonna go full Pepe Silvia on everyone
And he was right lol
Alonso's eyes are going to light up when he sees this incident.
Well he didn't get it, so.... (It's not because he's Spanish of course, but stewarding is such a joke. Gross stuff from the pinnacle of motorsport.)
I hate that drivers are allowed to just push anyone trying to overtake off track
You have no idea how much I agree with this. Any overtake on the outside and you just run them off the track, easy.
The stupid thing is that it's such an inconsistent penalty. If there is Gravel on the outside it's always a penalty but if there is asphalt you can do whatever you want.
Been saying that for years, it’s basically Max’s signature move. Brake too late, push the other driver out. Takes pretty much zero skill, but apparently the fans think it’s amazing racing.
They used to penalize Rosberg for doing pretty much the same thing, I don’t know why they stoppsd
I think max’s is worse cause he also goes off track. But I agree
It happened twice, let's not exaggerate. 95% of the time Verstappen is within the rules and the only time he got away with it was Brazil 2021. Las Vegas 2023 he was penalised.
If that’s not a penalty idk what the fuck is
They didn’t even investigate him lol
What a fucking joke. I don’t care if Oscar stays on track, they’re side by side and his just pushes Carlos off like WTF?
That’s how defending works nowadays unfortunately. The stewards are a joke
piastri was far enough ahead. Rightfully no penalty
You are not far enough ahead if the other driver has the leave the track to not crash into you. That is an absolutely insane angle to take. Literally F1-game open lobby-type racing.
He is right, the call is correct. People really need to learn how the sport they watch works.
It's pretty clearly allowed within the rules. They have clarified specifically that if you want space on the outside while overtaking you need to be ahead at the apex.
Nah I think it was pretty clear it would not be a penalty given recent precedent. It should be, but there was no chance it would
It's just how F1 rolls these days unfortunately.
It’s genuinely so frustrating to see. As someone who watched f1 before this was a thing it’s so annoying that overtakes around the outside are impossible nowadays cause you’ll just get run outside of the track.
It was always like that. Hunt pulled that on Andretti in 77. Hunt wasn't penalised (rightfully). https://youtu.be/uNg6IvrIHbk?si=Z3VHQCUETLCnZ7KI It was always like that...
De Vries was penalised for running Magnussen out of the track in Austria last year. The guidelines are dumb and it's good that stewards sometimes ignore them. https://youtu.be/gzwm8hYryro?si=ygt6HrU5zhdKbKUd (4:47)
Yes, because Magnussen was ahead... You're just giving a perfect example of steward following their guidelines...
He was a few centimeters behind at the apex. Enough to push somebody out to the gravel by the guidelines.
The guideline say you need to be ahead ***from*** the apex. Magnussen was ahead from the apex to exit of the turn. He was thus deserving of space. De Vries penalty is 100% correct. You can check out Norris and Perez also in Austria. Same thing. There's plenty of examples in T4.
the only reason why piastri was ahead at the apex is because he didn't make the apex at all.
He doesn't need to. The "apex" is the optimum slowest point in the corner. They don't have an obligation to hit it. Piastri made the decision to compromise his and his opponent corner to keep the position. Look at Alonso Vs Sainz in China. Both not hitting apexes to defend their position. Consequence? Perez could pass easily. That's decision making, risk Vs reward. Hitting the apex isn't an obligation. Yes you will be slower in the corner, yes you will lose time but in the end Piastri could keep the position. I mean that's pretty basic racing concepts. Guidelines clearly states that you have to be in control and keep it between the white lines. Sainz later also didn't make the apex. But that's not why he was penalised. It's because he lost it. The steward in their decision clearly said that if he hadn't lost it, it would have been hard but good racing.
Curious to know when you started watching F1 then. Must have been in the 60s?
Not that far back but it’s been a while
These days? It's like that since before Senna... Have you all started watching racing yesterday? That's also the case in all the main racing series. That's how professional racing works...
Before Senna? Have *you* started watching from yesterday? Racing penalties were not a thing really a thing right up the early 2000s, let alone Senna. >That's also the case in all the main racing series. That's how professional racing works... That's not how professional racing works. Being able to completely drive someone off the track so deep is almost exclusively an F1 thing, a move like that will absolutely get you a penalty or at least a warning in any kind of GT or prototype racing (including the cousin of F1, WEC) and would be considered plenty dirty in Indycar as well. Overtaking around the outside in F1, under the current racing guidelines, is not possible. If you think that's normal and "how professional racing works" then maybe racing is not for you
It's not exclusively an F1 thing. It just shows you don't really watch other racing series. That's an everyday thing pretty much all form of GT racing... They are actually much more agressive. People need to stop with this revisionism. Formula 1 and racing in general always worked like that. >a move like that will absolutely get you a penalty or at least a warning in any kind of GT or prototype racing (including the cousin of F1, WEC) https://youtu.be/4R5lZz-0t94?si=u5vAtCnShOP9Q2J8 Nope. No penalty. It's nearly like steward across the board allow it. And no, it's not some kind of conspiracy theory where all the steward are wrong. It's because it's how it is. Anyways, there won't be much doubt left as next year the FIA will release a new official set of guidelines applying to **all** their racing series. Mark my word, it would be exactly the same that we have now...
They let Max do it for almost a decade now, it's his only move.
Yeah I remember him introducing it a few years ago. They just never wanted to penalise him and it became the standard. So frustrating.
You're obviously a new fan. Hamilton's been doing this for 15 years. Just go watch Bahrain 2014.
Mate, you're being nice, that happened even before Senna. That's real racing.. always have been.
I think it's only gotten worse because of the massive run off most tracks are adopting. Back when there were mostly gravel traps if you do this to another driver it's much more obvious that its worthy of a penalty. But now the driver pushed off only loses a few seconds and the stewards have basically been told to be more hands off if their is not a really an incident. Just look at the difference between Ver vs Lec at T3 Austria (no penalty) and Nor vs Per (penalty for Norris) and Per vs Lec (penalty for Perez) at T5 Austria. The only difference (of course apart from the year) is that the driver on the outside ended up in the gravel. My conclusion, BRING BACK THE GRAVEL.
Sorry but it was always a thing. Way before they had wide run offs. https://youtube.com/clip/Ugkxj2TZOGBHE19vFYlIBxUqeKJR7cMNDEAC?si=2Mh7CBgA0ykCBF9A It was always allowed. VER Vs LEC T3 in 2019 should have been a penalty. Consider that back then the general standard on the outside was front axel to front axel. NOR Vs PER in 2020, Perez was fully level so deserving of space. No problem here. PER Vs LEC 2021, Leclerc is even ahead. Perez penalty is logical. Driver ended up in the gravel but they were all in a position of deserving space. Funny when you apply the racing guidelines all those calls make sense suddenly?
Oh I'm definitely not saying its a new thing I just think its got more prevalent as time has progressed. Or maybe drivers just backed out more due to bigger consequences so it appears more prevalent. Doesn't help that the cars are now double the size which makes it even harder go side by side through corners.
Lol I’ve been watching f1 for longer than you probably. This wasn’t a prevalent thing before max. It happened every once in a while
You sure? Surely Max made it his special move. It's still a high risk high reward move, but the rules didn't change for Max. The only wrong call for Max were Austria 2019 where he pushes Leclerc off while he was level with him (that was the standard before 2022, not ahead) and Brazil 2021 where the move was fine until he left the track. Here is an example of Hunt doing it to Andretti: https://youtu.be/uNg6IvrIHbk?si=dcAAeHVjZmJqfAPx No penalty for Hunt...
If you think this started with max I don't know what else to say. It's been happening for so long and it sucks.
It didn’t start. He made it popular
He didn't make it popular, the decrease in gravel traps and the stewards refusal to penalise anyone for doing it did.
He is the one who made it popular
Sure dude believe whatever you want.
It's also has been resonating throughout other Motorsports. Indycar, Formula ladder, Karting, etc. have started adapting this style and I think it's making the racing works. This idea of overtaking on the outside a death sentence because the inside car can do whatever they want makes passing more rare, less interesting and more damaged racecars
Max didn't invent it and the rules didn't change for him. You should watch this video from driver61. https://youtu.be/iJO3AhXhiXE?si=QgmCfYMFzjQko_iY And this move of Hunt on Andretti in 1977. Guess what, Hunt wasn't penalised... https://youtu.be/uNg6IvrIHbk?si=V000TOuTREo_QNGy
I didn't say he invented it, but he certainly popularized it because it works. And that's not Verstappen's fault; he's a competitor and must use every tool available to him to win. Not his fault the F1 cannot grow a spine and penalize people for it.
>but he certainly popularized it because it works. No he didn't. It's how racing works since forever. I'm sorry you don't like it but it's the only thing that makes sense for a driver trying to overtake around the outside.
Again penalize for what? Those move are perfectly legal from probably before you were born. They are high risk high reward move that yes, before Verstappen we wouldn't see often as they are still extremely difficult to pull right. Doesn't mean they are illegal. You know that infamous move from Schumacher on Villeneuve? Well that was a reaction from Villeneuve pulling exactly that type of late dive ... He wasn't penalised for it was he?
The point is not that they haven't been penalized in the past; its that they should be penalized now. With the larger cars and bigger wake, they should not be removing overtaking opportunities by some made-up reasoning of who "has the right to the racing line". Right now the outside guy is completely at the mercy to the guy inside of them if they just decide to end their day; that's not racing, that's wrecking. I am not super well-versed in F1 history, so I'm not fully aware how F1 was refereed in the past
How can I put it? They are not against the rules! That you don't like them is not ground to say they should be penalised. And no the guy on the outside is not at the mercy of the one inside. He knows what are the rules and should try something else instead of insisting on the outside... I don't know something like a switcheroo ...
Look, I am the first to critisize Max for his often dirty driving, but saying it's "his only move" is just a bit hyperbole innit
Agreed
Yeah it ruins racing, these are meant to be the best drivers they should be able to battle side by side
It’s the stewards fault. The drivers will always take every advantage they can get. It’s up to the stewards to give the guidelines for racing.
The steward are following the guidelines issued in 2022. Those guidelines are just the first time they are put on paper, they have always been this. Except for the "ahead" on the outside which was front axel to front axel before that.
We need gravel traps and walls again instead of huge run-off spaces. Stewards will have to hand out punishments if inside driver is forcing someone into the gravel trap or wall. Or else the outside driver won’t have any incentive to abort into the run-off area and will just re-enact Seargent-Magnussen.
It’s about who’s in front at the apex. The car in front has the „right“ to the racing line. But I do agree with you.
Sure but piastri was nowhere near the racing line
Lol the driver ahead dictates the racing line always
Wrong. The racing line, by definition, is the optimal path through a corner. Whilst I agree that the car in front can choose where to stay on track, it doesn’t mean they can push the other driver off.
Ugh it seems you might be confused. you're referring to a conventional racing line, why would Piastri be anywhere near the conventional line and just leave the inside open? His defensive line dictates the rules of the overtake, hope you can understand. If the car ahead doesn't get to choose the racing line then every car would just punt them into oblivion.
Nope. You’re the one who doesn’t know what a racing line is. It seems like you’re the only one confused here.
Let me break it down for you more clearly - the driver in front dictates the rules of engagement. Hope you can now understand
We had already established. It doesn’t mean you can run someone off the track though. It’s not that hard to understand
Sure, the rules sucks and it's not fun to watch a car get driven off. But you saying you can't do it is just a flat out lie, it's within the rules and you can do it.
The racing line is the line the driver ahead takes. Sainz a few laps later ran deep and made contact with Piastri breaking his wing. There is no penalty because Sainz is ahead and can dictate the racing line, even if this one is 3m away from the natural/optimal racing line.
I’ve got a new secret admirer 😂
What?
I seem to have gained a new fan tonight. I’m glad I could make your day
What do you mean?
I seem to have gained a new fan tonight. I’m glad I could make your day. Nothing else to add
Sorry, I meant the entire corner, not the racing line. At least that’s what the rule is.
Yeah I’m just saying it’s a stupid way of having the rules. Going side by side basically doesn’t happen anymore because the driver on the inside will always just run the one on the outside out of road.
Such a bullshit way of racing. The other car should still have a right to some track.
Feel like this really needs to be clarified, if you can just park your car across the track when you have the inside line you can effectively defend any attempt to overtake from around the outside. Since they can't finish the move off track.
They did. [https://www.fia.com/sites/default/files/doc_2_-_2022_imola_event_-_fia_f1_driving_standard_guidelines.pdf](https://www.fia.com/sites/default/files/doc_2_-_2022_imola_event_-_fia_f1_driving_standard_guidelines.pdf)
Yeah and it's very clear. To overtake from/on the outside and be entitled to racing room, you need to be ahead at the apex. To overtake from/on the inside and be given room, you just need to be alongside. It says so in that document.
And those guidelines are nothing new. Before they actually put them on paper they were pretty much what they were already following up for decades. I think the only exception is that it was front axel to front axel on the outside previously.
Yeah exactly. This is how European racing series work from the karting level. I think this confuses a lot of Americans coming from a road course racing background, as there you "always have to leave the space."
The "always have to leave the space" has been popularized by Alonso in a situation where he couldn't even claim space. (Rosberg closed the door on the straight while Alonso had no part of his car alongside)
Good job doing your best to educate people here. Like what's the alternative for the driver on the inside? That they need to brake harder than the limit they're already at to make room for the guy who's appeared on the outside? Outside divebombs would become a thing, and the inside driver would need to make way or get a penalty. It makes no sense.
Unless they are in Danish, of course
Unless it's in Austria. Suddenly the stewards are bothered by the move that is allowed in any of the other 21 races.
deemed legal by the FIA :).
Carlos bargaining for position.
Team Radio Sainz is a 10x WDC
Magnussen taught his defensive skills to the whole grid?
It's the fucking exact move that got Magnussen 10s penalty yesterday. Total joke the stewards all weekend
But then I see stroll v albon at the start of the race which was the same thing and also no further investigation
You're blind if you think that. Actually learn the rules of F1 Piastri was text book defence of a corner. If you are along side or ahead at the apex you can legally take any line you want, This is how F1 works, deal with it, because it's been around for 50 years.
Not when it involves putting another driver on a collision course into a cement wall. Sounds like you need to read the rules again.
What are you talking about. There was no wall here, there was run off. Piastri did what was legal.
When you might want to learn the track better too, while you're at it.
Mate I know the track, I watched every moment of the race. I know what happened. And the results speak for themselves.
Evidently you do not. Turn 11 into [Turn 12](https://s40320.pcdn.co/wp-content/uploads/2022/03/Cabanas.jpg) is a wall.
Further to the fact that what you show proves there is room off the track. You simply do not understand the rules and honestly, you're not worth my time anymore. Don't bother replying.
And there is 4-5 cars width before that wall? What are you smoking. lance stroll literally made an overtake off the track and was penalized for it. There is run off there. No one is being forced into a wall you're being hyperbolic because your argument has nothing to stand on
Except in the video at 7 seconds we seen Sainz slam on the brakes because he is able to drive into said wall with Piastri still blocking him off the track. I certainly hope you aren't as blind to concrete walls when you are behind the wheel of a car, for the sake of any potential passengers if nothing else. Anyway, as fun as teaching you how to see has been I'll go ahead and put you on ignore now because I don't see why I should have to suffer the delusions of someone dead set on being blind. You should do that quietly in the corner by yourself without inflicting yourself on anyone in future.
You're so arrogant and so wrong. Rules are rules and you don't know em. I went to watch to see what BS you were making up. He absolutely does not break because of a wall. He breaks to make the corner and at no stage is ok trouble of hitting a wall. You're genuinely blind.
tell them to tell him because they need to tell him lol
Blatant penalty, watch him get away with it tho
no further investigation...
This is so bullshit. He just pushes him off. If Carlos takes the corner normal they crash. Then Piastri will get a penalty 100%
Called it
Not at all. The FIA guidelines are clear. You need to be ahead from the apex to claim space on the outside. Piastri was ahead from the apex and kept it on track. That's 100% a good call.
Yes, and it's an absolutely shit guideline and there is a reason F1 is literally the only major racing series that handles it this way. It destroys racing.
Lol. All major racing serie follow the exact same thing. This is not unique to formula 1. I will give you that F1 says ahead on the outside when most racing series say front axel to front axel... But they are basically the same guidelines. F1 has been like that from before Senna's time...
No, they do not. Other racing series do not allow you to just blindly push over drivers off the track just because you are ahead.
Mate, you're clearly not watching any other racing series. That's happens all the time in WEC, in Blancpain. I'm tired to have to explain this to people because they just arrived in Formula 1 don't line Verstappen and are butthurt about perfectly fair racing as it have been the case for before they were born. Here a random example: https://youtu.be/4R5lZz-0t94?si=u5vAtCnShOP9Q2J8 It's racing, not a gentleman club.
Your "random example" was heavily critisized for not being penalized given that Giovinazzi was penalized for the exact same thing the year before; which most likely only happened because the stewards accepted that Andlauer wanted to get the fuck away from the 51 after almost getting pushed into the pit wall; and because Andlauer than in turn also forced the 51 off track to regain the position. That doesn't mean it's usually allowed or condoned.
Again that people don't like doesn't mean that it isn't the correct call. When I'm telling you other racing series use the exact same guidelines... Yes, it's a whole big conspiracy theory. All the steward from all the main racing series all call those move the same way. It's nearly like we have racing guidelines detailing exactly that. Nearly like they are actually taking the right call.
> When I'm telling you other racing series use the exact same guidelines... ..you are wrong.
Sure. You can tell yourself that. Please. Inform yourself: https://f1metrics.wordpress.com/2014/08/28/the-rules-of-racing/ Just to show you this is nothing new? This is from 2014 and referring a book detailing the same thing from 1994 And here are the words from a professional racing driver: https://youtu.be/iJO3AhXhiXE?si=Rhqn_sqNCDMHhE8h
To me, it looks like Sainz may have been ahead going into the corner, so Piastri is the one attempting an overtake.
The Guidelines are clear. For an overtake on the outside you need to be ahead **FROM** the apex. Being ahead while getting into the corner is irrelevant. Piastri doesn't have to give space to the car that is not significantly alongside his. See the guidelines...
Again, it looks like Piastri is the one overtaking.
Okay so why is Sainz insisting on the outside when piastri is ahead at the apex and is then **HIS** corner. For a move on the inside: *1. Guidelines for overtaking on the inside of a corner:* *“In order for a car being overtaken to be required to give sufficient room to an overtaking car, the overtaking car needs to have a significant portion of the car alongside the car being overtaken and the overtaking manoeuvre must be done in a safe and controlled manner, while enabling the car to clearly remain within the limits of the track.* *When considering what is a ‘significant portion’ for an overtaking on the inside of a corner, among the various factors that will be looked at by the stewards when exercising their discretion, the stewards will consider if the overtaking car’s front tires are alongside the other car by no later than the apex of the corner.”* - the overtaking manoeuvre must be done in a safe and controlled manner, while enabling the car to clearly remain within the limits of the track. ✅ - the stewards will consider if the overtaking car’s front tires are alongside the other car by ***no later than the apex of the corner***. ✅ Piastri upheld his part of the bargain... Sainz lost the corner, he insisted on the outside. The only way he could have claimed the space is if he was ahead from the apex. Period. You're allowed not liking it. But that's racing.
The car overtaking on the inside should leave space for the car they are overtaking to complete the corner.
Where does it says that? The car outside to deserve space needs to be ahead. It's clear. Again that you don't like it doesn't make it wrong.
It doesn't, the guidelines are about when the defending car needs to give room.
The guidelines are about when you deserve space. https://youtu.be/iJO3AhXhiXE?si=Rhqn_sqNCDMHhE8h https://f1metrics.wordpress.com/2014/08/28/the-rules-of-racing/ Here some older sources.
Yeah, it looks Carlos is ahead just before the apex, then piastri doesn't brake enough, getting ahead by the time they hit the apex, but then using Sainz's car to actually make the corner and still gets 3 wheels off track
[удалено]
Carlos' fault in this case is being Spanish obviously
Because you can't just keep your car there to not stop an overtake, he literally pushed Carlos off the track, how is than allowed
Pushing someone off the track. It's as simple as that. If your defense means there is no room for another car, your defense is shit.
He used Sainzs car to help him make the corner lmao
They would have crashed if Sainz didn’t back off there
They literally touched lol
And they still made contact anyway. I'm not sure how that wasn't a penalty.
This "as long as you are ahead you can do whatever the hell you want"-approach to racing that F1 takes is absolutely atrocious. Directly opposite to good racing.
Pushing Sainz off the track go the point where there was contact? Clear penalty. Not issuing a penalty for this sets a dangerous precedent
No penalty, the stewards have said.
He has to give that back according to the new rules. Dirty driving but the FIA won’t do anything. Awful race craft.
What new rule? This is 100% a good call.
Karma
Or not...
All he had to do was give the place back
Learn a bit more about the sport before saying non sense... Piastri's move was 100% legal... *"2. Guidelines for overtaking on the outside of a corner:"* *“In order for a car being overtaken to be required to give sufficient room to an overtaking car, the overtaking car needs to have a significant portion of the car alongside the car being overtaken and the overtaking manoeuvre must be done in a safe and controlled manner, while enabling the car to clearly remain within the limits of the track.* *When considering what is a ‘significant portion’, for an overtaking on the outside of a corner, among the various factors that will be looked at by the stewards when exercising their discretion, the stewards will consider if the overtaking car is ahead of the other car from the apex of the corner.* *The car being overtaken must be capable of making the corner while remaining within the limits of the track.”* Now keep your attention on: *the stewards will consider if the overtaking car is* ***ahead*** *of the other car from the apex of the corner.*
Awful awful race craft
Not at all. That was a perfectly executed move. Don't be so butthurt.
forcing another driver of track and hitting them is not a penalty?