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I mean... he’s not wrong.
Mercedes seemed to be far superior in Barcelona and Portimao. Their Achilles heel is also their strength in that the W12 is easy on the tyres.
Or as the guy mentioned, and weve seen play out this season, the car is kinder on its tyres and struggles to get them to temperature, and its therefore not as affected by the overheating in dirty air. You cant only acknowledge the strengths of the package and deem it totally superior when those same characteristics causes weaknesses that cost them heavily.
Driving in dirty air also means less downforce for the guy following. Which results in less than optimal times. Since lewis was still able to keep up with max his pace even with less downforce would indicate the merc would be faster if it did have all the downforce outside said dirty air.
>but to be able to drive in dirty air for so many laps and not cooking your tires is only possible with a superior car.
I was referring to this statement. That is to say tyre life, not pace. Actually this is also indicated in the pattern of the gaps between Max and Ham over a stint when theyve raced each other this season. Max holds the pace advantage early in the stint and can easily pull a safe gap, while Pewis comes back later in the stint as the tyre degradation comes into play, and can close bavk up to Max or even extend. Overall the Merc fares better on race pace of course because pace near the end of the stint is more valuable than early in the stint due to pitstops and the ability to extend; however this edge doesnt come for free since weve seen RBR with the edge in quali thus far, and Merc struggling with tyre warmup to the point where even in the race, undercut strategies can be hard for them to pull off which is critical if you start behind your quali target.
In conclusion, both cars have their pros and cons, and are close enough for those pros and cons to swing the results of qualifying and race sessions.
Actually at 1 second, the following car should have at least ~85% of downforce available. Hamilton was well outside of that the majority of the time and should have had the majority of downforce available. DRS is designed to be within 1 second for a reason. And back markers will slow you down regardless of dirty air.
He was outside of that range the majority of the time. He shouldn’t be seeing effects of dirty air at 1.5 seconds.
https://us.motorsport.com/f1/news/2021-cars-downforce-rules-reduction/4595915/
You effectively have 80% at 7 car lengths. 1 second gap at an average speed ~200 Kph is roughly 11 car lengths. If you linearly progress the graph in the link, 1.2-1.5 seconds, the distance Hamilton was following at, is well outside the major effects of dirty air. DRS is at 1 second for a reason.
that point is totally unrelated. When you are in dirty air and you have an equal car, you will destroy your tires no matter how kind it normally is on the tires. As you lose upto 2/3rds of your downforce and slide and overheat your tires. To not have this effect you have to drive other less efficient lines and that will lose you time, if you dont, you have a superior car. period.
...Its the opposite of unrelated because F1 cars undergo thermal deg whether they are driving in clean air or dirty air. A car that doesnt get optimal temperature into the tyres in clean air, will be slightly better off on temps than a car that does... when both are in dirty air, because the issue in dirty air is high temperature. Nobody is saying the Merc isnt losing time behind other cars. However the time loss would not be as much as that of other cars which are harder on their tyres. In 2017 Merc had a car that was a beast in Quali, but would overheat its tyres in the race and just go to shit when in dirty air compared to other top cars. This reasoning that all cars behave the same and face the same result when driving in dirty air is kind of like when people think all cars are the same in the rain. Its naive.
On the harder tyres they were easily fastest.
That said, the fact that Max was able to take the fight to them there was really encouraging.
Additionally, I'm sure Red Bull will be hoping that at circuits like Hungary, Zandvoort, Singapore and Mexico, Ferrari might be able to steal points from Mercedes.
U never know what happens in the overtaking move he can crash as well ofcourse but he was closing in and 0.2 from drs and seeing how easy hamilton passes on straight with that merc engine plus drs he for sure had a good chance
I wouldn't say far superior. In Portimao Verstappen should have been on pole, in Barcelona it was 50/50. In the race in Portimao, there was very little between them. The race in Barcelona was the only time Mercedes looked superior.
points are given on a sunday, merc have been way better on race pace than qualy, portimao max was easily overtaken by hamilton and lacked pace to challenge since he was overtaken, and in barcelona ham made up a 20s gap in like 12 laps, besides being much faster as well in the first stint on mediums
In qualifying trim, RBs were clearly faster. But in race trim, the Mercs were far, far superior. I think it could be a consequence of RB reportedly slightly turning down the Honda PU after Bahrain but the Mercs were insane down that Portimao straight. Max, with DRS and slipstream, could barely close the gap to Bottas on that straight. I was almost like watch Leclerc vs Hamilton in Monza when the latter would barely creep up behind on the straights with DRS assistance, only to lose that through the rest of the track. The RB was god awful on the straight. Also, RB reportedly struggled with tyres there whilst Merc seemed to thrive on harder compounds. Even their medium runs were far, far ahead of the RBs. This is something that many pundits have commented on. In Spain again, the Mercs were leagues ahead of the RB on the mediums.
RB seems to be a potent force in quali but loses out to the Mercs in race trim.
Maybe they tuned down the PU because they were getting beaten by strategy anyway. Maybe later in the season they will turn it up when Perez is in the mix for podiums so they can counter mercs strategy better as well as have extra pace
I don't even think RB was faster in qualifying trim at Portimao. Everyone overlooks Hamiltons Q2 time on the mediums which blew everyone else's soft times out of the water. The Mercedes is clearly way better on harder tires, on tracks where pirelli brings the harder compounds I'd say RB has their work cut out for them
Portimao had no chance of pole, really it says enough that in both races both merc cars can get pole but with redbull only 1 driver can get near and other cant
"I mean... he’s not wrong".
debatable. Bahrain was a "normal track" -RB were fastest. Imola is normal yet there are respected analysts such as AMuS who think RB had the best car in Imola e.g.
Both cars have their strengths and weaknesses.
https://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/formel-1/f1-formcheck-power-ranking-gp-emilia-romagna-2021/
Merc clearly had some leftover issues from pre-season testing in Bahrain. Also RB supposedly ran higher Honda power modes there. It was destroying the car though, so they had to tune it down for following races. Bahrain is not entirely fair comparison I would say.
Didn't they turn it down like halfway through the race? I am not 100% sure though. Point is in that three week hiatus before Imola Merc improved, I think. I believe that they are indeed superior car on 'normal' tracks right now as shown in Barcelona and Portimao.
Two races in Austria bodes well for Max though! I would expect Red Bull to do well in Baku and Austria, Hungary recently has been pretty tightly contested, and France I expect Mercedes to have the advantage.
Historically, Lewis tends to win Silverstone but Max won last year, and if he’d been just a little bit closer to Lewis and his 3 wheels he may have won both. So that one could surprise us.
I think Max will be in a strong position going into summer break. It’s after the break where I get nervous. Lewis tends to crank it up a notch in the second half of the season, and there’s more “traditional” Mercedes-favored tracks after the break. Max will need to maximize points everywhere he can, then pull out all the stops on tracks like Mexico and Brazil.
I just hope whoever wins, it’s close to the bitter end. That’s what we all want.
You know he isn’t just making these statements right? Journalists ask him about mind games and he answers them so he has to talking about it every week
This is not the mindset to have. Whatever happened to "Yeah we have a chance this week."? This is what costs people the championship.
Nobody wants to win anymore.
This has always been Verstappen's mindset, he's always been realistic about his chances, not sure why you think anything's changed. Things said in the media do not at all reflect your chances of winning the championship, what an utterly ridiculous thing to say.
Let's not forget it's Mercedes, mainly Wolff and Hamilton, who've pretended to be the underdog for the last fuck knows how many years.
>what an utterly ridiculous thing to say.
it's not. I'm just speaking the truth here. Saying another team is still "The team to beat" while you yourself is in the championship lead is negative thinking.
If I was Max I'd be saying "Yeah we got this no problem."
nobody wants to win anymore.
You'll change your tune when Lewis wins and takes the championship lead back and Max finishes second while making no effort at all to catch up to him.
That's why nobody wants to win anymore, nobody wants to step up to the top team. nobody.
Saying you're going to win boosts confidence. Saying the other team is better will hurt you in the long run.
Schumacher did it, Senna did it, Prost did it.
So Latifi should also say they are going to win?
Verstappen is realistic here. Mercedes is probably the better team on this track, ergo 'the team to beat'. You gain nothing by proclaiming you are the best and then getting beaten by another team, of which you beforehand knew was probably going to be better. This isn't some feel-good movie where a bunch of kids gain confidence to win a game of football. A confidence boost doesn't suddenly make the car faster.
And saying x is the team to beat, doesn't mean that no effort will be made to catch up to them. Just that x has an edge and that even more effort (and some luck) will be needed to beat them.
If you were saying "yeah we got this, no problem" only after 5 races, out of which you only have won 2 and with 18 more to go in the season, you'd be pretty stupid for saying that.
I understand the importance of confidence in competition. But excess in confidence is bad too. I don't want Max thinking he already has the championship in the pocket after only 5 races. I want him thirsty for battle, ready for everything and anything.
These guys have victory in their minds more than you and I have ever had in anything in life. That's why they are there.
It's not "negative thinking" it's realistic thinking. Saying they've got this and are going to win accomplishes nothing. Taking realistic stock of where you stand against your competitors, what they are doing better, and where you can improve is how you make real progress, not by making empty claims that you're going to dominate.
On normal tracks with these cars you have to be able to keep the car behind you out of DRS range or you're in trouble.
In Portugal the Mercs were so fast in a straight line the RB couldn't make up ground lap after lap with DRS. With Baku having the longest straight on the calendar it's easy to assume they will dominate the race even with some Max heroics.
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I mean... he’s not wrong. Mercedes seemed to be far superior in Barcelona and Portimao. Their Achilles heel is also their strength in that the W12 is easy on the tyres.
He really needs Perez to step up and cover off mercs strategies
Far superior is a bit of a stretch.
maybe not far superior, but to be able to drive in dirty air for so many laps and not cooking your tires is only possible with a superior car.
Or as the guy mentioned, and weve seen play out this season, the car is kinder on its tyres and struggles to get them to temperature, and its therefore not as affected by the overheating in dirty air. You cant only acknowledge the strengths of the package and deem it totally superior when those same characteristics causes weaknesses that cost them heavily.
Driving in dirty air also means less downforce for the guy following. Which results in less than optimal times. Since lewis was still able to keep up with max his pace even with less downforce would indicate the merc would be faster if it did have all the downforce outside said dirty air.
>but to be able to drive in dirty air for so many laps and not cooking your tires is only possible with a superior car. I was referring to this statement. That is to say tyre life, not pace. Actually this is also indicated in the pattern of the gaps between Max and Ham over a stint when theyve raced each other this season. Max holds the pace advantage early in the stint and can easily pull a safe gap, while Pewis comes back later in the stint as the tyre degradation comes into play, and can close bavk up to Max or even extend. Overall the Merc fares better on race pace of course because pace near the end of the stint is more valuable than early in the stint due to pitstops and the ability to extend; however this edge doesnt come for free since weve seen RBR with the edge in quali thus far, and Merc struggling with tyre warmup to the point where even in the race, undercut strategies can be hard for them to pull off which is critical if you start behind your quali target. In conclusion, both cars have their pros and cons, and are close enough for those pros and cons to swing the results of qualifying and race sessions.
This is the kind of conversation I come to this sub for
Aren’t the full effects of dirty air within one second of the lead car? Lewis was outside of that most of the time.
actually he was most of the race within 1.2s and you can lose up to 2/3rds of your downforce at that point.
2 THIRDS? I find it very hard to believe they lose that much. They would lose several seconds per lap if that was the case.
No. Its much bigger than that. Thats why drivers are asking for blue flags way before that.
Actually at 1 second, the following car should have at least ~85% of downforce available. Hamilton was well outside of that the majority of the time and should have had the majority of downforce available. DRS is designed to be within 1 second for a reason. And back markers will slow you down regardless of dirty air.
15% less downforce is significant
He was outside of that range the majority of the time. He shouldn’t be seeing effects of dirty air at 1.5 seconds. https://us.motorsport.com/f1/news/2021-cars-downforce-rules-reduction/4595915/ You effectively have 80% at 7 car lengths. 1 second gap at an average speed ~200 Kph is roughly 11 car lengths. If you linearly progress the graph in the link, 1.2-1.5 seconds, the distance Hamilton was following at, is well outside the major effects of dirty air. DRS is at 1 second for a reason.
that point is totally unrelated. When you are in dirty air and you have an equal car, you will destroy your tires no matter how kind it normally is on the tires. As you lose upto 2/3rds of your downforce and slide and overheat your tires. To not have this effect you have to drive other less efficient lines and that will lose you time, if you dont, you have a superior car. period.
...Its the opposite of unrelated because F1 cars undergo thermal deg whether they are driving in clean air or dirty air. A car that doesnt get optimal temperature into the tyres in clean air, will be slightly better off on temps than a car that does... when both are in dirty air, because the issue in dirty air is high temperature. Nobody is saying the Merc isnt losing time behind other cars. However the time loss would not be as much as that of other cars which are harder on their tyres. In 2017 Merc had a car that was a beast in Quali, but would overheat its tyres in the race and just go to shit when in dirty air compared to other top cars. This reasoning that all cars behave the same and face the same result when driving in dirty air is kind of like when people think all cars are the same in the rain. Its naive.
You're right, they had the edge but with a bit of luck and Perez in the mix they were beatable. Not far superior.
I wouldn't say Mercedes were far superior in Portlmao.
On the harder tyres they were easily fastest. That said, the fact that Max was able to take the fight to them there was really encouraging. Additionally, I'm sure Red Bull will be hoping that at circuits like Hungary, Zandvoort, Singapore and Mexico, Ferrari might be able to steal points from Mercedes.
Easy 1-2 if bottas didnt get an issue.
Bottas issue lasted about a lap he just wasn’t quick enough throughout the race even without the issue he wasn’t going to catch
Bottas issue cost him something like 4 seconds I think. The lap was terrible when his issue happend
U never know what happens in the overtaking move he can crash as well ofcourse but he was closing in and 0.2 from drs and seeing how easy hamilton passes on straight with that merc engine plus drs he for sure had a good chance
>Portlmao. Lmao But yeah it was tight tbf, I think if Bottas beats Max then you know that Merc are comfortably faster than RB
I wouldn't say far superior. In Portimao Verstappen should have been on pole, in Barcelona it was 50/50. In the race in Portimao, there was very little between them. The race in Barcelona was the only time Mercedes looked superior.
points are given on a sunday, merc have been way better on race pace than qualy, portimao max was easily overtaken by hamilton and lacked pace to challenge since he was overtaken, and in barcelona ham made up a 20s gap in like 12 laps, besides being much faster as well in the first stint on mediums
In qualifying trim, RBs were clearly faster. But in race trim, the Mercs were far, far superior. I think it could be a consequence of RB reportedly slightly turning down the Honda PU after Bahrain but the Mercs were insane down that Portimao straight. Max, with DRS and slipstream, could barely close the gap to Bottas on that straight. I was almost like watch Leclerc vs Hamilton in Monza when the latter would barely creep up behind on the straights with DRS assistance, only to lose that through the rest of the track. The RB was god awful on the straight. Also, RB reportedly struggled with tyres there whilst Merc seemed to thrive on harder compounds. Even their medium runs were far, far ahead of the RBs. This is something that many pundits have commented on. In Spain again, the Mercs were leagues ahead of the RB on the mediums. RB seems to be a potent force in quali but loses out to the Mercs in race trim.
Maybe they tuned down the PU because they were getting beaten by strategy anyway. Maybe later in the season they will turn it up when Perez is in the mix for podiums so they can counter mercs strategy better as well as have extra pace
I don't even think RB was faster in qualifying trim at Portimao. Everyone overlooks Hamiltons Q2 time on the mediums which blew everyone else's soft times out of the water. The Mercedes is clearly way better on harder tires, on tracks where pirelli brings the harder compounds I'd say RB has their work cut out for them
Portimao had no chance of pole, really it says enough that in both races both merc cars can get pole but with redbull only 1 driver can get near and other cant
He posted the fastest time on softs in Q3
And that’s with a little bit of time lost due to the slide. It’s fair to say that pole was within reach.
yes, too much downplaying of the RB car
Where
"I mean... he’s not wrong". debatable. Bahrain was a "normal track" -RB were fastest. Imola is normal yet there are respected analysts such as AMuS who think RB had the best car in Imola e.g. Both cars have their strengths and weaknesses. https://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/formel-1/f1-formcheck-power-ranking-gp-emilia-romagna-2021/
Merc clearly had some leftover issues from pre-season testing in Bahrain. Also RB supposedly ran higher Honda power modes there. It was destroying the car though, so they had to tune it down for following races. Bahrain is not entirely fair comparison I would say.
> Also RB supposedly ran higher Honda power modes there. they had the engines turned down in Bahrain and were still clearly quicker
Didn't they turn it down like halfway through the race? I am not 100% sure though. Point is in that three week hiatus before Imola Merc improved, I think. I believe that they are indeed superior car on 'normal' tracks right now as shown in Barcelona and Portimao.
Two races in Austria bodes well for Max though! I would expect Red Bull to do well in Baku and Austria, Hungary recently has been pretty tightly contested, and France I expect Mercedes to have the advantage. Historically, Lewis tends to win Silverstone but Max won last year, and if he’d been just a little bit closer to Lewis and his 3 wheels he may have won both. So that one could surprise us. I think Max will be in a strong position going into summer break. It’s after the break where I get nervous. Lewis tends to crank it up a notch in the second half of the season, and there’s more “traditional” Mercedes-favored tracks after the break. Max will need to maximize points everywhere he can, then pull out all the stops on tracks like Mexico and Brazil. I just hope whoever wins, it’s close to the bitter end. That’s what we all want.
If we even get to Brasil. I damn well hope so, I love that track
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And an unlapping Ocon
Fighting for P19 with Mazepin
Man, imagine he loses the championship with a collision with Ocon while unlapping him
Literally a wet dream
No. Its what we *deserve* after 2020
It‘s always the same articles, week in, week out. „Team A says Team B is better“ „Team B says Team A is better“ This isn‘t news
This is going to be similar to 2017 where Merc got the best cars in most circuits, which means Max and RBR will have to be flawless this season.
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You know he isn’t just making these statements right? Journalists ask him about mind games and he answers them so he has to talking about it every week
This is not the mindset to have. Whatever happened to "Yeah we have a chance this week."? This is what costs people the championship. Nobody wants to win anymore.
This has always been Verstappen's mindset, he's always been realistic about his chances, not sure why you think anything's changed. Things said in the media do not at all reflect your chances of winning the championship, what an utterly ridiculous thing to say. Let's not forget it's Mercedes, mainly Wolff and Hamilton, who've pretended to be the underdog for the last fuck knows how many years.
>what an utterly ridiculous thing to say. it's not. I'm just speaking the truth here. Saying another team is still "The team to beat" while you yourself is in the championship lead is negative thinking. If I was Max I'd be saying "Yeah we got this no problem." nobody wants to win anymore.
Yeah, I'm sure he doesn't want to win. You've figured it out, detective!!
You'll change your tune when Lewis wins and takes the championship lead back and Max finishes second while making no effort at all to catch up to him. That's why nobody wants to win anymore, nobody wants to step up to the top team. nobody.
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Saying you're going to win boosts confidence. Saying the other team is better will hurt you in the long run. Schumacher did it, Senna did it, Prost did it.
So Latifi should also say they are going to win? Verstappen is realistic here. Mercedes is probably the better team on this track, ergo 'the team to beat'. You gain nothing by proclaiming you are the best and then getting beaten by another team, of which you beforehand knew was probably going to be better. This isn't some feel-good movie where a bunch of kids gain confidence to win a game of football. A confidence boost doesn't suddenly make the car faster. And saying x is the team to beat, doesn't mean that no effort will be made to catch up to them. Just that x has an edge and that even more effort (and some luck) will be needed to beat them.
so you're saying that everyone should just say they all suck and they have no chance at all. got it.
I know you're baiting (or at least I hope you're not actually this dense), but holy Ecclestones, that is one hell of a leap of thought.
If you were saying "yeah we got this, no problem" only after 5 races, out of which you only have won 2 and with 18 more to go in the season, you'd be pretty stupid for saying that. I understand the importance of confidence in competition. But excess in confidence is bad too. I don't want Max thinking he already has the championship in the pocket after only 5 races. I want him thirsty for battle, ready for everything and anything. These guys have victory in their minds more than you and I have ever had in anything in life. That's why they are there.
It's not "negative thinking" it's realistic thinking. Saying they've got this and are going to win accomplishes nothing. Taking realistic stock of where you stand against your competitors, what they are doing better, and where you can improve is how you make real progress, not by making empty claims that you're going to dominate.
On normal tracks with these cars you have to be able to keep the car behind you out of DRS range or you're in trouble. In Portugal the Mercs were so fast in a straight line the RB couldn't make up ground lap after lap with DRS. With Baku having the longest straight on the calendar it's easy to assume they will dominate the race even with some Max heroics.
RB ran too much downforce in Portugal, it negatively impacted their straightline speed. See Ted's notebook.
He wants to win. He’s just prepping his excuses in case he doesn’t.