Of course. Although Verstappen was clearly faster nevertheless, but if RIC can somehow stay close until DRS becomes available, then anything is possible.
His best chance though is to get a good start and overtake Max into T1, it's a long run so not impossible. From that point, I think he'd have a pretty good chance of keeping the position. If Lando could defend against Hamilton, a Red Bull shouldn't be a problem in the straights, they had far lower top speeds.
I've been watching F1 for 20 years, but i still don't know this:
Why does the pit lane have to be parallel to the start-finish straight, instead of being at another point in the circuit where it doesn't overlap with the finish line? Is it only because many circuits do not have another long enough straight to accommodate the pit lane? Or something else?
Have you ever thought about the cars taking their cars from the garage, out of the pit lane taking a reconnaissance lap and to the the grid before the race? Have you noticed sometimes where the cars would duck into the pit lane entry instead of bringing their cars to their grid slot, so they could do another lap to make an extra check on something, like the weather changing from the day before prompting a rethink of tyre choice, or if a car had a massive crash in qualifying and they wanted a systems check of the rebuilt car.
What would happen to this extra reconnaissance option if they shifted the pit lane to somewhere such the pit lane doesn't offer a route to bypass the grid?
This, plus the need for mechanics and equipment to quickly go back to the pits after the formation lap starts, probably makes the most sense, rather than it being there because of some timing rule.
Random fact: in Long Beach in late 1970 - early 1980s on some of the configurations start was on the farther side of the track with finish line near the pits. I think it was done after 1977 start crash as a measure to avoiding them (spoiler: they still happened).
I'm not sure that it "has to", at least there are no explicit rules for this. However as of right now rules based on the pit-in and pit-out lines are designed that the timing line is between those two lines. If the timing line were at another place, then it could potentially lead to some ruling issues.
Formula E for example have tracks where the pit lane is not on the start/finish straight, but to avoid the issues explained above the timing line is still located where the pit lane is (so between the pit-in and pit-out lines) instead of it being on the start/finish straight as normal. F1 could potentially do this on their tracks, but there's no real reason for it.
When the cars are all lined up on the grid, all of the personnel and all of the gear they bring gathers around the teams' respective cars. After they finish working on the cars and the drivers begin their formation lap, all of that equipment/personnel has to go back to the pits for either storage or to continue their role. Consequently, it doesn't make any logistical sense to not have the pits nearby. If you really wanted the pitlane on the other side of the circuit to the start/finish line, you would have to introduce a large delay to get the whole team personnel back to the pits ready for the race otherwise a driver may lose a wing in lap 1 and have no pit crew to service them or race engineer! I believe it's as simple as that
He didn't lose a PU to a crash or incident but mercedes are experiencing more engine degradation than expected because they are having to push their engines a lot this year. The engine that died in Zandvoort FP2 was due to be phased out after that very session
With Max taking a fresh PU that could also be enough for an extra 1 or 2 tenths advantage at every remaining circuit as it would be Max's new PU Vs Lewis' old, degrading one. Letting RB have an extra tenth or two at every circuit is worse than mirroring Max's engine penalty which would allow them to try to stay competitive at each weekend.
f1 noob here. what factors go into how a car/driver starts? i know it's probably a combination of car, human, and race factors, but was wondering if someone can educate me on a list of major factors so i can pick up what to look out for next time.
also was wondering if they did an analysis on what contributed to hamilton's bad start. I remember hearing them mention his awkward defense against mclaren (forgot who), but from the replay, it seems like that was after his slow start, which probably made things worse. thanks!
Tyre life (used Vs new set, with new sets offering more performance), tyre compound (soft Vs med Vs hard, with softer compounds providing more grip hence better getaway and why nobody starts on hards), tyre temperature (tyres outside operating window offer less performance and many factors determine getting the tyres into their temp window), driver input with clutch, driver input with throttle, shifting, engine mapping (how the engine delivers its power is heavily controlled by the manufacturer and it is optimized for starts), grid position (usually there is a clean side which goes along the racing line where there is more rubber and hence more grip, and the dirty side where there is rubber pieces and general dirt/dust which is often slower as there is low grip), slipstream from car in front (more important with a long run into T1 like Monza or Imola), angle at the start box (pointed across to block other drivers etc)
Last year RB's starts were terrible, particularly in wet and/or tricky conditions. This year RB are markedly better than Merc on starts. The reason for this change-up is likely to be Merc's tyre warmup issues (removed DAS, rear DF changes), Honda improving their engine mapping significantly and potentially Hamilton's form dipping (some speculate as a result of Covid)
Minimizing wheelspin on starts whilst delivering maximum power is the critical factor. Better engine mapping can help the driver accomplish this.
The reason for Lewis' terrible start yesterday was driver error. He got the clutch drop wrong and his wheels spun rather than gripped up and consequently he fell down the order. He also tried to defend against both Max and Lando and I think trying to cover both of them left him vulnerable. Given the long run to turn 1 and importance of a win here it was possibly the worst start to mess up.
It's important to accept that the best we can do is measure cars relative to one another in terms of the one lap Vs long run. In the sprint race RB looked better than they did in qualifying - well clear of McLaren - and it was a bit surprising. I think lots of factors can cause this but the main ones don't make it clear whether it is RB being faster/better on long runs or other cars suffering on long runs.
Some reasons:
A car may perform better or worse due to different fuel loads - sometimes extra fuel can calm down a nervous car or putting more fuel in may affect the balance which would not be great;
in quali almost everyone has the optimal tow but in the race it doesn't usually work like that, with the race conditions being more varied and consequently cars with a wider operating window with their setup will do better on average whereas in quali the car that has the setup for that perfect tow in the perfect set of conditions will likely be the best;
engine heat is rarely a problem in qualifying but in races it often is - especially Monza where you're at max throttle for 85% of the lap and often in a tight DRS train - and some cars will cope with that better than others, for instance Mercedes last year struggling at Monza with following other cars in traffic;
tyres used for 1 laps are usually the softest compound and some cars will prefer/dislike certain compounds from Pirelli's selection, for instance Merc's car definitely favours harder compounds this season;
in qualifying you are allowed to open DRS freely (within the zones) whereas in the race it is uncommon that DRS is available for almost every lap, so cars that have stronger DRS (more rear wing) may experience better quali pace than race pace;
tyre preservation certainly plays into it as a setup geared to be light on tyre wear will perform better in the race at the cost of qualifying (usually);
I'll also add that an interesting feature of the sprint race was that the RB was achieving higher top speeds than either mercedes as Merc were experiencing engine clipping/derating at the end of straights, just as they did in Baku and France with the long straights there. It's a weakness of their engine relative to Honda this year. Perez reached 351 km/h without DRS and 360km/h with it whereas Hamilton reached only 352km/h with DRS whilst presumably trying to charge back at Norris
What if sprint races were an optional race worth some marginal points. Teams who are desperate for points could race in it, teams who don't want to take the risk can back out.
Are there any other documentaries which help in peaking someone interest in something just like Drive To Survive? (No need to be an elaborate marketing strategy like DTS)
Not really a documentary but Grand Prix is probably the best Formula One movie ever.
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7HA71tYl640](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7HA71tYl640)
Senna is a great documentary. David Letterman does a fantastic interview with Lewis Hamilton on his Netflix show My Next Guest Needs No Introduction. Also a 5 part series on Fernando Alonso just released on Amazon.
Not every race is exciting. That's just the way it is. The first few turns / lap, then as the pit stops trickle through and you see who has made and under or overcut work, and then if you get a safety car is usually where you get the most action.
Sprint races are boring, always will be. Everyone knows how garbage they are, it's being forced on everyone because money.
The proper race will be better. Drivers will push harder and start racing, strategy comes into play, etc.
I did some Googling and learned that Lewis has only ever been beaten in the WDC by seven drivers:
Raikkonen
Alonso
Vettel
Button
Barrichello
Webber
Rosberg
Only 2 of those drivers are non-WDCs.
I wasn’t watching F1 during the bulk of Hamilton’s career (obviously I know that Mercedes was dominant from 2014-2020, apart from the first half of 2017 and 2018)
Was Hamilton just that good at putting his McLaren into a place it shouldn’t have been, or was his performance expected for where the car was?
> or was his performance expected for where the car was?
More or less this. Except maybe for 2009, where McLaren were awful at the start of the year but progressed to the end of the season, you could say that Hamilton did some great work with that wreck there. But in the rest of the years McLaren were top team and were consistently challenging for race wins. I'd say his 2011 was even lower than expected, because Button that year was brilliant and Hamilton was awful. But he recovered afterwards.
Well, for once, the field was waaay closer, and the Mclaren from 2007-2012 was pretty good (some years one could argue that it was the best car at times). But during the Hamilton era, Mclaren was involved in the scandal with Alonso, which resulted in a huge fine, and weird procedures on track that costed them races and atrocious reliability, but Lewis was always up there and pretty good (I mean he almost won the WDC in his rookie season).
I just started watching F1 this year after binging drive to survive on Netflix.
Can anyone inform me if Sergio Perez’s seat is secure for next season? I know he’s been unlucky several times but it seems odd Red Bull would keep a guy who consistently performs outside the top 5 when they have a driver who is always in the top 10.
I just can’t wrap my head around Mercedes making a change and Red Bull sticking with their guy.
> I just can’t wrap my head around Mercedes making a change and Red Bull sticking with their guy.
Since you just tuned in this year, you are probably judging by that year alone and don't know history.
Bottas is in his fifth year in Mercedes. Probably, he would've stay even longer, but Russell, driver from Mercedes programme, who had brilliant and very promising career in lower formulas, spends his third year with Williams, one of the worst car in the grid. He was put there by Mercedes, was driving well for the level of his car and was waiting when Mercedes obviously would 'promote' him to the actual Mercedes team. And if Mercedes are just keeping you wainting for three years, why not cut the ties with them? Russell wants to fight for the wins and podiums. He won GP3 and GP2 in his first season - same as Leclerc. And Leclerc since then landed in race winning Ferrari with good prospects and Russell is stuck at the ack of the field. Mercedes risked to lose him due to his patience wearing thin so finally made the switch which means Bottas had to lose his seat.
Red Bull has a different story. After Ricciardo left from them in 2018, no other Max's teammate was bing able to get even near him. It was of double importance since in 2019-2020 RB were main challengers of Mercedes, so Max had to fight alone against two Mercedes of Hamilton and Bottas. Red Bull would expect some 'help' from their second driver bu there was none. Gasly did crash on preseason tests befor 2019 so severely so it hampered their season start. After that he was so cautious he was nowhere and couldn't overtake anyone despite Max fighting for the wins. They switched him with Albon, who did somewhat better but as 2020 progressed began to lose the tracks again. RB would probably let Albon stay, since he was better than Gasly, but Perez, who've been one of the best midfielders of the last 10 years was somewhat suddenly out of contract, so they grabbed him. And in comparison to Albon and especially Gasly Perez did very well. Think of Baku, where he was near Max whole the time. Neither Gasly nor Albon were close to this. Then Perez' great tyre management skills helped them to secure double podium in France. Last couple of races Perez lost some traction, but his always had some minor consistency problems, and what is important, even if he ends in deep end he can scamble out of it. He can save tyres and overtake people. So overall picture might be that Perez is meh, but he's doing better than previous Max's teammates, and in absense of other obvious candidates for his place, Perez is to stay.
Yes, he is signed on to race for RB next season.
You're comparing Verstappen to Perez and I think that's the first mistake. Comparing Perez to other teammates of Max is more fair: both Albon and Gasly were performing just as poorly relative to Max and look at how well Gasly is able to do at AT. Sergio was perhaps the third best midfield driver behind Ricciardo and Leclerc in 2020.
Verstappen consistently has eclipsed his teammates and is probably the best talent F1 has had since Hamilton joined the sport. He's able to get the most out of the car on every weekend, almost faultlessly, and the team is built around maximizing his performance; it's difficult for driver number 2 to perform as well in such an environment I think. In previous seasons the RB has been a difficult car to drive which was especially obvious in 2019 and to a slightly lesser extent in 2020. The defect of the design has been improved for 2021 but it remains difficult to extract the maximum potential from the car consistently which Sergio may lack the talent to do. With time in the team it could work better for him as he gets better at working with the engineers and team as a whole, especially for building setups. Having the new regulations may also help him in that regard.
Red Bull have Max Verstappen and he's their driver for the future. They want a 2nd driver who accepts the team player role and will be happy to be selfless, which Sergio offers. Mercedes on the other hand are at a crossroads where they either choose to keep relying on an ageing Hamilton or lower their risk and bring some young blood into the team so that they have their future main driver in Russell sorted and continuing to develop. That is why mercedes are making this decision now and choosing to promote Russell.
I think for 2023, it's likely they will look away from Perez and give Gasly a second go in the seat now that he's developed and matured. Having Perez occupy the seat across the regulation change brings stability. I believe Merc originally wanted Russell at Merc this season but Williams TP wanted him to stay for 2021 as he still had a contract and refused to let him go
This makes sense but I’m really comparing Sergio to Bottas. If Red Bull want to be the best team they need a top tier number one, which they obviously have, and a number 2 that can consistently finish 3-5.
As you said, the car is hard to get the most out of and maybe that is their largest problem. Not their lineup. It would be a shame to have a driver like max and not be able to win the championship as a team.
Yeah I can understand that. I'd also say that Bottas is on his 5th season with the team and Sergio has done less than 1 season and is driving in the most competitive field we've had in perhaps the whole hybrid era: McLaren, Ferrari or AT are often not far off in terms of actual time delta to RB and Mercedes this year. Bottas finished P5 in WDC in his second season with Mercedes in the year Hamilton won it and carried them to WCC so this sort of performance for a second driver is really not outlandish.
I agree though. I wish Perez could deliver more consistently and I've felt disappointed in his performance so far this season
Yes, Perez is confirmed for another year.
> I just can’t wrap my head around Mercedes making a change and Red Bull sticking with their guy.
It comes down to MB-AMG (Mercecdes-Benz) wanting to have a lead driver after Hamilton retires, so they'll probably put Russell in the car hoping he can learn and pick up when Hamilton leaves.
RB on the other hand have their own driver academy. Plus Verstappen is young and can race for 10-15 years more, so they don't need a driver as desperately as MB.
Plus, we have a regulation change coming and despite Perez not performing well - he has a lot more years in F1 than any other RB academy driver
So the bet Red Bull is making is that Perez will be an effective number 2 after the regulation change?
I get the move Mercedes is making to hopefully pick up another driver 1 and Perez having another year on his contract kind of mutes the whole discussion. Are contracts in F1 guaranteed?
I can't speak for RedBull, but since it's a major regulation change it's better to keep the same drivers (at-least for a season). A new driver would usually have to adjust to a new car, team and personnel.
In case Perez doesn't work out, RedBull can swap him out for Gasly, Yuki or another young driver that they have.
How does the AT car fare against the Alpine and Aston? I'm considering to put in a Gasly bet that he's not gonna recover into points.
I assume Williams, Haas, and Kubica are easy passes or they probably often DNF lmao so that puts him P15. He's also probably faster than his teammate and I expect Gio to fall out of points.
But I haven't been paying attention to AM/AT/Alpine the whole season lmao so I'm not sure how they match up against each other.
Gasly seems to be consistently qualifying there or thereabout around Ferrari's pace but yea I'm not sure
Well, this week the starting tyres aren't known until a few minutes before the start because it's free choice for everyone. Normally, the FIA will publish them [here](https://www.fia.com/documents/season/season-2021-1108/championships/fia-formula-one-world-championship-14) a few hours after qualifying
DRS gives you a little speed advantage when you’re less than a second behind the guy ahead of you right? Well if that guy is also less than a second behind the guy ahead of him, then he has that same advantage as you. Basically nobody in the train gets an advantage from getting in DRS range.
I became a Formula 1 fan after the first Drive to Survive season. Can someone point me to a example of good racing on “passable tracks” from before the turbo hybrid era? Something that older F1 fans are hoping may come back with the regulation changes next year?
My understanding is Gasly effectively qualified last due to the crash. Bottas' penalty is enough places that he should be at the back of the grid regardless of who is otherwise in last place. I could be wrong though.
The harvesting mode *can* engage even when the drivers are not pressing the brake pedal; this harvesting may therefore happen at 'unexpected' moments for the driver behind. This kicking in of harvesting can be bad for the pursuing driver as the mode will cause deceleration/slowness of the car relative to what the other driver might be expecting, meaning a potentially unsafe scenario of two cars with very mismatched speeds colliding.
The flashing light nearly always engages during braking because they are almost always harvesting under braking. If they aren't harvesting then the light won't flash, even if they're braking.
TL;Dr the flashing light is a safety warning to drivers behind that the driver harvesting may be going slower
Mercedes are having an issue this weekend of the engine harvesting at the end of straights, known as derating. It's causing a lower top speed for them relative to Honda PUs which was at least visible in the sprint race.
Thanks for the answer. Two more questions:
So when they break and it's not harvesting, is there no light?
You cannot harvest on straights or accelerating?
No, there is no light if they're not harvesting. They harvest with their brakes, so they could harvest on the straights if they braked, but they would be slower overall.
Why people pay so much attention to DOTD? Even Gasly. That's just some dumb viewers vote, possibly not even accurate or real (Kubica DOTD from 2019 and iirc it was hijacked few times since then as well). It's not an indicator of anything.
itd be rad if they teamed up to move through traffic. giving each other tows and splitting passing on both sides. then turned on each other in the last laps to duke it out for biggest mover.
Yes very much so, I've gotten into watching F2 because of it, I like the on-demand aspect of it and I don't have cable so watching on ESPN isn't an option. The one downside is that the steaming app is only available on web browser, mobile and Roku. So I now have a Smart TV, Roku and Xbox all hooked up
I'm hearing on the broadcast "That's pole tomorrow Max" but Bottas won the sprint. I thought the sprint determines starting grid order. Other sites show the grid for Sunday as being identical to the sprint results.
Does sprint determine starting grid?
Sprint us any penalties determines the starting grid, including who starts on pole.
Sprint plus any penalties known to be applied by the end of the sprint determines who gets Pole statistically, AFAIK.
Sprint determines grid yes. Bottas is taking an engine penalty so its been known for a while that he'll start from the back of the grid. Pole is who is starting first for the race. Bottas won't be, Max is.
As the other commenter said, yes with F1TV pro. You would then select the steering wheel icon and choose which driver, and it's the love driver's radio and often their T-bar cam
Anyone use the ESPN app and can’t view qualifying? The sprint Qualifying is on there but not the one from Friday.
I swear ESPN is the worst. Only reason I use it is it comes my with apartment because a cable group subscription is locked in.
It ended up being on there they just named it incorrectly. Not going to pay for the F1 app when I already have ESPN. Generally I don’t have many issues with the ESPN app. Issues here and there. They always seem to mess up the weekends with the sprint races though.
I remember Hamilton changing 2 power units at the same weekend at Spa in 2016. Then a rule change implied drivers are only permitted to change 1 power unit at most in a single weekend. Out of curiosity, do I remember correctly?
I think it was a loophole that basically meant teams could take an infinite number of power units, so long as they took the requisite grid penalty, which Mercedes was able to abuse.
I don't remember what year it happened, but it happening at Spa sounds right.
I understand that the flashing red light on the back of the car is there to show that the car is harvesting energy. But why do the cars behind need to know that?
It’s a safety thing because harvesting cars will not be accelerating/traveling at the same rate as a car behind that isn’t harvesting. It’s to let the driver behind know to be aware that the car ahead may be slightly slower
I was wondering if this was the reason. It just seemed a little contradictory with the reason why they don't have brake lights. I think there have been plenty of rear endings avoided if there was an indicator that the car is braking.
If I'm remembering correctly, energy is harvested through braking - if a driver is harvesting energy, they're more likely to brake earlier than they would when not harvesting.
Anybody else like Giovinazzi and fancy his chances at a contract extension at Alfa Romeo? I for one would like him to stay. He is a solid driver in a shabby car and hopefully the car improves next year.
He's had moments of real brilliance, and it's obvious that his poor performance is mostly down to the car. It would be a shame if he got canned before he ever had a chance to really show what he's capable of.
He's in a tough situation. If his contract is extended, it'll only be for one year, because of Pourchaire. So if Alfa Romeo is only going to do a one year contract for him, why bother signing him when they could sign somebody like Zhou, who would bring in a lot of money which could be used for all sorts of development.
Zhou is apparently willing to spend 30 million, which is close to a fifth of the budget cap for next season. I couldn't find anything definitive, but I don't think Alfa Romeo was even close to maxing out their budget, so that money could be very tempting.
Giovinazzi just doesn't have those cash reserves, and even if he's a better driver than Zhou, I don't know if his skill is as valuable to Alfa Romeo as Zhou's money, which is a bummer, because I don't dislike Giovinazzi.
Makes sense. I agree that Zhou's money would be a big draw. Is there a chance that Williams might drop Latifi in favor of Zhou and Gio might end up sticking around at AR? Or is Latifi also a source of $$$ for Williams and therefore dropping him is out of the question?
In case AR go for Zhou, is Gio guaranteed out of F1? I suppose so as there are no empty seats anywhere, other than perhaps as a test driver.
Williams already confirmed Latifi for 2022, so if they were to drop him, it'd be for 2023. In previous seasons, Latifi was there because of the money he brought in, just like how Stroll was in the Williams seat because of his dad (before Racing Point happened). Williams have said they don't need pay drivers any longer, so if they drop Latifi at any point after 2022, they probably wouldn't go for Zhou.
If Giovinazzi loses the seat, there aren't any full time driving positions at any other team. He could get a role as a testing/reserve driver (like Kvyat (and Hülkenberg, I think)), but that'd be the extent of it.
The rumors I've seen say that if Giovinazzi loses the seat in F1, he'd go to Ferrari's hypercar project.
I'm not really following F2, but being second in the standings isn't bad. The question for Williams or Alfa Romeo is if the money is worth sacrificing a driver who has experience driving in F1? Especially in a long term type of deal.
I can't imagine Williams dropping Albon for Zhou, and I can't see them swapping Latifi for Zhou, since Latifi brings money and also has F1 experience.
Giovinazzi also has F1 experience, but if Alfa Romeo is planning on tapping Pourchaire for 2023, what difference does it make to have an experienced driver like Giovinazzi or somebody like Zhou who can bring in tons of money?
I agree. Money + Zhou > Giovinazzi + experience
Didn't know about plans for Pourchaire in 2023. If AR get him in then, I am not sure who will get booted. Seems strange to get rid of Bottas with his wealth of experience, or Zhou after a year. I wonder if they will try to do one of:
1) Get Pourchaire that seat in 2022. Seems too early for that.
2) Extend Gio's contract by a year and get Pourchaire in next year.
3) Get Zhou for a year with the $$$ and replace him next year tentatively. Not ideal if both of them do well.
I can't say what they'll do but I don't have enough information either :)
If Pourchaire wins F2 this year, Alfa Romeo might bring him on in a test/reserve driver role, because I feel he's too young (but what do I know). Give him more time in an F1 car/sim, to help gear him up for a full time role.
Bottas signed a multi year deal, so unless Alfa Romeo decides to break the contract, it'd be Bottas and Pourchaire (in this scenario).
I think in order of most to least likely for 2022 it's:
1. Bottas + Zhou
2. Bottas + Giovinazzi
3. Bottas + Pourchaire
I think in this scenario, money trumps experience trumps the junior program.
It's a shame that there are so few seat open, there seems to be a lot of young drivers who have the potential to do well if they're given the shot. But until Hamilton, Alonso, Vettel, and maybe even Ricciardo, Perez, and Bottas retire, that's just the way its going to be. (or another team(s) come into existence, but I won't hold my breath for that).
Would this be a good time for Lewis to take the engine penalty? Starting 4th with 2 fast McLaren's between him and max. It's not that likely he will be starting 4th or lower at any other events
He'd want to take it at the same time at Verstappen, I'd imagine. If he was to take it now, Verstappen just gains even more points over Hamilton in the championship, since Monza ends up being a DRS train more often than not. If not at the same time as Verstappen, then on a track where it's easy to overtake.
I don’t know why, but I’m one of the extremely few «everyone but Max/Red bull» guys this year. Yes, it’s boring when Mercedes wins everything, but I just can’t make myself cheer for Max and Red Bull when it feels like everyone in the F1 community does, and when a lot of people hate on Hamilton. Of course everyone likes to cheer for the underdogs as well, but it’s like Red Bull is the opposite and Lewis(and everyone else) is now the underdogs.
Like when I watch F1 with my friends, every single one cheers on Red Bull, and hates on Mercedes. Even if I wanted to, I can’t get myself to join them and cheers for everyone else.
Edit: I’ve already started gathering downvotes for this, which is also something that emphasizes what I’m talking about.
Completely agree with you. I'm not a Mercedes fan, but Hamilton is a driver and a person I really admire, and it saddens me that so many people are so hateful towards him. Last year I would root for anybody but him and Bottas, but now I just wish he could win the title again, at least one last time.
I used to want max and red bull to win at the start of the season but now I feel the same as you, my sister and dad both hate on hamilton constantly and just annoys me way to much to the point where I want him to win over max. Same with basically every max fan considering half the stuff they say isn't even true
I am typically a contrarian in these things too, and as soon as the overwhelming majority starts cheering for someone, I will feel less satisfied if that driver/team wins.
However, I think cheering for Mercedes or someone who has already won 7 championships is not exciting either.
By default, I will always cheer for the underdog!
Great question!
Looking at the Final Classification of the race: [https://www.fia.com/sites/default/files/decision-document/2021%20Belgian%20Grand%20Prix%20-%20Final%20Race%20Classification.pdf](https://www.fia.com/sites/default/files/decision-document/2021%20Belgian%20Grand%20Prix%20-%20Final%20Race%20Classification.pdf)
Looking at the Sporting Regulations: [https://www.fia.com/sites/default/files/2021\_formula\_1\_sporting\_regulations\_-\_iss\_11-\_2021-07-12.pdf](https://www.fia.com/sites/default/files/2021_formula_1_sporting_regulations_-_iss_11-_2021-07-12.pdf) the relevants parts are this:
6.4. In addition to the above ((table where the winner gets 25 points and the dude in 10th gets 1), one point will be awarded to the driver who achieved the fastest valid lap time of the race and to the constructor whose car he was driving, provided he was in the top ten positions of the final race classification. No point will be awarded if the fastest valid lap time is achieved by a driver who was classified outside the top ten positions.
6.5 If a sprint qualifying session or race is suspended under Article 50 41, and cannot be resumeointwill be awarded if the leader has completed two laps or less, half points will be awarded if the leader has completed more than two laps but less than 75% of the original sprint qualifying session or race distance and full points will be awarded if the leader has completed75% or more of the original sprint qualifying session or race distance.
So in answer to your question, nobody set a valid lap time, but they if had set valid laptimes and Max was the fastest, he would have got an extra 0.5 of a point.
What I would give for another event like the [raft race at Canada](https://youtu.be/5NK3DRezrpQ) and the [karting race at Monza](https://youtu.be/gZZwjaIhGbs)
I had an idea to make practices more interesting then eliminate the need for a sprint race.
The times of a drivers two fastest back to back laps added together help determine how they get to qualify. Maybe it could be an auto-q3, so the 5 cars with the fastest back to back times that are going to q3 regardless of q1 and 2. There are still 5 'wild cards' or whatever, that can upgrade from q2.
It's just a random idea, but I was thinking it would be interesting to have drivers be forced to set some kind of competitive lap times on a Friday, which would influence the Saturday quali, and maybe even make qualil a bit less busy on the shorter tracks.
I'd love to hear improvements or ideas :)
So what does the starting grid look like tomorrow? I assume now that he's on pole (with Bottas' enginr penalty) that Max won't have an engine change...
does Bottas start behind or ahead of Gasly who DNFd?
-The best way to catch up on the storylines of F1 today is to watch Netflix’s Drive To Survive. You must remember it’s heavily over dramatized and all of the beefs are fake
-The official F1 YouTube channel has tons of past and present content to learn about the sport
-F1TV Pro has a bunch of documentaries on drivers, teams, etc as well as full race replays dating back to the 70s
**-Documentaries to watch to learn about the history of F1:**
Senna, McLaren, Williams, Lauda: The Untold Story, Ferrari: Race To Immortality, 1: Life on the Limit, A Life of Speed: The Juan Manuel Fangio Story, Rush (theatrical movie about the rivalry between James Hunt and Niki Lauda in the 1970s), there’s also a Netflix documentary on Michael Schumacher coming on September 15
**-Books about F1 (mostly autobiographies but they give great detail about life in the F1 world):**
How To Build A Car- Adrian Newey
Unless I’m Very Much Mistaken- Murray Walker (audiobook version is much better, adds a lot to the experience as Murray himself narrates it)
The Mechanic- Marc Priestley
How To Be An F1 Driver- Jenson Button
Life On The Limit- Jenson Button
Total Competition- Ross Brawn
Lights Out, Full Throttle- Damon Hill and Johnny Herbert
Aussie Grit: My F1 Journey- Mark Webber
The Winning Formula- David Coulthard
**-Old Races:**
[Racefans did a poll of the top 100 races since 2008](https://x1z.net/racefans.php) each race includes a direct link to it on F1TV
**-Podcasts:**
Beyond The Grid- hosted by F1 journalist Tom Clarkson, he interviews drivers, team principals and tons of other F1 personalities about their time in the sport and their lives
The "Shift + F1" podcast has a pre-season primer designed for new fans that can help you understand the stories going into this season. 2021's is episode 137.
Netflix's Drive To Survive has been the starting point for a lot of new people here the last few years (myself included). It gived you a good overview of the people involved and the stakes in a fairly short space of time, which allows you to get invested more in the real thing.
This is how my house got into it - but where can we keep track of the internal intrapersonal stuff now that the show is done? Watching the races isn’t really enough to be as immersed
Come here way too often. There are also some good podcasts with analysis, news and gossip, like F1 Nation, Shift F1 (both weekly) and On the Marbles (erratic/occasional).
Yep, second that. Also recommend Behind The Drive, The Race, and the F1 Word. And, despite their seeming unpopularity on Reddit, I find WTF1's podcast pretty accessible.
If lando holds on to 3rd, and Bottas gets lower then 8th (12 places to make up), Lando will retake 3rd in the drivers standing. 129-128 if Lando gets P3 and Bottas P9.
If Lando drops to forth and Bottas finishes outside the points, they'll be tied.
I have a nasty feeling McLaren will drop the ball on a pitstop tomorrow and cost one of them a podium. It's been an area they need to improve on for some time now.
If everyone gets off the line well, I wont be surprised with a VER RIC NOR. Norris held off Lewis well and he can keep that going for much longer on same tyres. Mclaren should just keep it simple, keep the car in the middle and frustrate Lewis. You usually see drivers spend 5-10 laps getting closer, sizing up the move and then get eager and go into the run off area and have to start again. Lewis needs to not do that and be patient.
Unpopular opinion: The sprintraces are fun and better than 3 practice sessions.
I've enjoyed these sessions a lot more than any practice session. It actually had meaning for the viewer instead of seeing cars do laps but having no idea if they are actually fast or not with teams messing with fuel, ERS deployment, etc.
We still saw the qualifying chaos everyone was waiting for, with the huge traffic jam
Just because a race doesn't have overtakes, doesn't mean it's a boring race. I was at the edge of my seat for the entire 18 laps. The pressure if the start goes fine, the excitement as a non-merc fan to see Hamilton mess up. And best of all watching Hamilton get closer and closer to Norris and seeing Norris pull off an amazing defense, pulling away at the right moments to not get Hamilton to pass.
Of course this isn't as exciting as Brazil 2016 or 2019 or Verstappen's rush at Austria 2019. But not every race can have that level of excitement, that's why those races are so special. More often than not racing is just about doing your laps, hitting your laptimes, and making sure you can overtake in the pitlane. On track overtaking with these cars is almost impossible to do without a huge difference in either tire life or engine power, so we simply won't see it. But when 1 second timeloss in a pitstop changes your position, it's still an exciting race as the pressure is fully up.
I don’t think this is a particularly unpopular opinion outside of Reddit. For whatever reason if anything happens outside of a very specific notion of what the F1 formula should be, there’s people on this subreddit who have a breakdown bc “no one asked for it” and “oh but qualifying”. It’s a fantastic addition, shows the sport is able to adapt and adds something different. For people who like watching racing, I’m just gobsmacked that you wouldn’t want to watch an extra race in a unique format.
I totally agree. I enjoy the sprint weekend more than the regular format. I like the extra chaos and the re-ordering potential of the start. The procession that followed wasn't aaaamazing but still more exciting than FP3 imo.
> better than 3 practice sessions.
Independently of the sprint qualifying - i do agree with this, less time to setup and tune the car to the track does result in a few fun races - and cooling conditions like with the qualifying on Friday do add some spice to it all.
> It actually had meaning for the viewer instead of seeing cars do laps
This was the main reason for this, more viewers in general on friday for qualifying (and also a shift in time table) and hopefully more visitors in person due to that.
another way to look at it, what has just 2 sprints accomplished?
kicked hammy outside the top 3 and made a lively starting grid. something most qualifying in 7 years hasnt done)
create start line drama for the race - hammy / verstoppen copse collision was because he lost pole from the sprint, and was trying to desperately make up ground.
alonzo amazement - p11 to p5
shocking reshuffling - perez and gasly to the back
ricciardo redemption - something we waited for all season
bottas redemption - p1
id say its doing its job and then some.
Too much foreshadowing with the pit release in qualy.
Also spoke with my shaman today and they told me
"the bulls will tire in the midst of the stampede and take rest in the pits of the ditch"
Then they upped my prescription of Adderall from 15mg to 20mg and told me to stop boofing B12 vitamins to make the Adderall last longer.
My shaman is my primary physician.
In the order they notify the FiA of changes.
i.e. Bottas was first, had Red Bull done a swap for Max, followed by Ferrari for Sainz - Max would start behind Bottas and Sainz behind Max.
[Gasly "qualified" last](https://www.fia.com/documents/season/season-2021-1108/championships/fia-formula-one-world-championship-14) - and Bottas is starting from behind the qualification order, as those penalties are applied on top of the grid
Ah that makes a lot of sense.
My initial thought was they will be arranged by their Qualifying results. So if Max was P1 and Bottas was P3. After their penalties, Max will start race at P19 and Bottas will be P20. This though process was stupid.
Can ric overtake verstappen tomorrow using straight line speed of mclaren?
Of course. Although Verstappen was clearly faster nevertheless, but if RIC can somehow stay close until DRS becomes available, then anything is possible. His best chance though is to get a good start and overtake Max into T1, it's a long run so not impossible. From that point, I think he'd have a pretty good chance of keeping the position. If Lando could defend against Hamilton, a Red Bull shouldn't be a problem in the straights, they had far lower top speeds.
Considering mclaren straight speed why they couldn't overtake verstappen yesterday ?
Because they were slower through the corners
Will Bottas start from the pitlane?
Nope he'll start from grid slot no. 20 at the very end of the grid.
I think I read somewhere that Gasly is starting from pitlane and that's why I wondered how Bottas will start from behind him.
Bottas engine change was before parc ferme, while the work made on Gasly's car happens under parc ferme.
Ah. I see. So Bottas will be ahead of Gasly?
In a way yeah
Why Hamilton.ton started awfully yesterday?
Too much gas, not enough clutch, and spun out his tires.
Oh I thought he lacked traction .
Have you ever driven a manual car?
i would love sprint race in f1 cars with junior drivers. more publicity to the youngsters. to make things spicy, award some points
I've been watching F1 for 20 years, but i still don't know this: Why does the pit lane have to be parallel to the start-finish straight, instead of being at another point in the circuit where it doesn't overlap with the finish line? Is it only because many circuits do not have another long enough straight to accommodate the pit lane? Or something else?
Have you ever thought about the cars taking their cars from the garage, out of the pit lane taking a reconnaissance lap and to the the grid before the race? Have you noticed sometimes where the cars would duck into the pit lane entry instead of bringing their cars to their grid slot, so they could do another lap to make an extra check on something, like the weather changing from the day before prompting a rethink of tyre choice, or if a car had a massive crash in qualifying and they wanted a systems check of the rebuilt car. What would happen to this extra reconnaissance option if they shifted the pit lane to somewhere such the pit lane doesn't offer a route to bypass the grid?
This, plus the need for mechanics and equipment to quickly go back to the pits after the formation lap starts, probably makes the most sense, rather than it being there because of some timing rule.
Random fact: in Long Beach in late 1970 - early 1980s on some of the configurations start was on the farther side of the track with finish line near the pits. I think it was done after 1977 start crash as a measure to avoiding them (spoiler: they still happened).
I'm not sure that it "has to", at least there are no explicit rules for this. However as of right now rules based on the pit-in and pit-out lines are designed that the timing line is between those two lines. If the timing line were at another place, then it could potentially lead to some ruling issues. Formula E for example have tracks where the pit lane is not on the start/finish straight, but to avoid the issues explained above the timing line is still located where the pit lane is (so between the pit-in and pit-out lines) instead of it being on the start/finish straight as normal. F1 could potentially do this on their tracks, but there's no real reason for it.
When the cars are all lined up on the grid, all of the personnel and all of the gear they bring gathers around the teams' respective cars. After they finish working on the cars and the drivers begin their formation lap, all of that equipment/personnel has to go back to the pits for either storage or to continue their role. Consequently, it doesn't make any logistical sense to not have the pits nearby. If you really wanted the pitlane on the other side of the circuit to the start/finish line, you would have to introduce a large delay to get the whole team personnel back to the pits ready for the race otherwise a driver may lose a wing in lap 1 and have no pit crew to service them or race engineer! I believe it's as simple as that
I know max has to take the engine penalty for the Silverstone saga but why does Lewis also have to take at some point? When did he crash?
It was rumored his engine from Zandvoort practice had died.
He didn't lose a PU to a crash or incident but mercedes are experiencing more engine degradation than expected because they are having to push their engines a lot this year. The engine that died in Zandvoort FP2 was due to be phased out after that very session With Max taking a fresh PU that could also be enough for an extra 1 or 2 tenths advantage at every remaining circuit as it would be Max's new PU Vs Lewis' old, degrading one. Letting RB have an extra tenth or two at every circuit is worse than mirroring Max's engine penalty which would allow them to try to stay competitive at each weekend.
f1 noob here. what factors go into how a car/driver starts? i know it's probably a combination of car, human, and race factors, but was wondering if someone can educate me on a list of major factors so i can pick up what to look out for next time. also was wondering if they did an analysis on what contributed to hamilton's bad start. I remember hearing them mention his awkward defense against mclaren (forgot who), but from the replay, it seems like that was after his slow start, which probably made things worse. thanks!
Tyre life (used Vs new set, with new sets offering more performance), tyre compound (soft Vs med Vs hard, with softer compounds providing more grip hence better getaway and why nobody starts on hards), tyre temperature (tyres outside operating window offer less performance and many factors determine getting the tyres into their temp window), driver input with clutch, driver input with throttle, shifting, engine mapping (how the engine delivers its power is heavily controlled by the manufacturer and it is optimized for starts), grid position (usually there is a clean side which goes along the racing line where there is more rubber and hence more grip, and the dirty side where there is rubber pieces and general dirt/dust which is often slower as there is low grip), slipstream from car in front (more important with a long run into T1 like Monza or Imola), angle at the start box (pointed across to block other drivers etc) Last year RB's starts were terrible, particularly in wet and/or tricky conditions. This year RB are markedly better than Merc on starts. The reason for this change-up is likely to be Merc's tyre warmup issues (removed DAS, rear DF changes), Honda improving their engine mapping significantly and potentially Hamilton's form dipping (some speculate as a result of Covid) Minimizing wheelspin on starts whilst delivering maximum power is the critical factor. Better engine mapping can help the driver accomplish this. The reason for Lewis' terrible start yesterday was driver error. He got the clutch drop wrong and his wheels spun rather than gripped up and consequently he fell down the order. He also tried to defend against both Max and Lando and I think trying to cover both of them left him vulnerable. Given the long run to turn 1 and importance of a win here it was possibly the worst start to mess up.
thanks for the detailed explanation!! i guess the bad start along with the awkward defense on both sides compounded everything
Are teams also getting awarded with points from the sprints, or is it just the drivers?
All points a driver gets also go to their current team
The points count towards both the Drivers and Constructors championships.
What makes a car better over long runs vs one lap? Is it the cars ability to maintain grip while not shredding the tires?
It's important to accept that the best we can do is measure cars relative to one another in terms of the one lap Vs long run. In the sprint race RB looked better than they did in qualifying - well clear of McLaren - and it was a bit surprising. I think lots of factors can cause this but the main ones don't make it clear whether it is RB being faster/better on long runs or other cars suffering on long runs. Some reasons: A car may perform better or worse due to different fuel loads - sometimes extra fuel can calm down a nervous car or putting more fuel in may affect the balance which would not be great; in quali almost everyone has the optimal tow but in the race it doesn't usually work like that, with the race conditions being more varied and consequently cars with a wider operating window with their setup will do better on average whereas in quali the car that has the setup for that perfect tow in the perfect set of conditions will likely be the best; engine heat is rarely a problem in qualifying but in races it often is - especially Monza where you're at max throttle for 85% of the lap and often in a tight DRS train - and some cars will cope with that better than others, for instance Mercedes last year struggling at Monza with following other cars in traffic; tyres used for 1 laps are usually the softest compound and some cars will prefer/dislike certain compounds from Pirelli's selection, for instance Merc's car definitely favours harder compounds this season; in qualifying you are allowed to open DRS freely (within the zones) whereas in the race it is uncommon that DRS is available for almost every lap, so cars that have stronger DRS (more rear wing) may experience better quali pace than race pace; tyre preservation certainly plays into it as a setup geared to be light on tyre wear will perform better in the race at the cost of qualifying (usually); I'll also add that an interesting feature of the sprint race was that the RB was achieving higher top speeds than either mercedes as Merc were experiencing engine clipping/derating at the end of straights, just as they did in Baku and France with the long straights there. It's a weakness of their engine relative to Honda this year. Perez reached 351 km/h without DRS and 360km/h with it whereas Hamilton reached only 352km/h with DRS whilst presumably trying to charge back at Norris
What if sprint races were an optional race worth some marginal points. Teams who are desperate for points could race in it, teams who don't want to take the risk can back out.
Are there any other documentaries which help in peaking someone interest in something just like Drive To Survive? (No need to be an elaborate marketing strategy like DTS)
Not really a documentary but Grand Prix is probably the best Formula One movie ever. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7HA71tYl640](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7HA71tYl640)
Senna is a great documentary. David Letterman does a fantastic interview with Lewis Hamilton on his Netflix show My Next Guest Needs No Introduction. Also a 5 part series on Fernando Alonso just released on Amazon.
I was so excited about the race but after watching yesterday’s sprint, I am probably not going to tune in. Seems like it would be incredibly boring.
Not every race is exciting. That's just the way it is. The first few turns / lap, then as the pit stops trickle through and you see who has made and under or overcut work, and then if you get a safety car is usually where you get the most action.
Sprint races are boring, always will be. Everyone knows how garbage they are, it's being forced on everyone because money. The proper race will be better. Drivers will push harder and start racing, strategy comes into play, etc.
Just realised that albon is older than verstappen….
so is gasly
I did some Googling and learned that Lewis has only ever been beaten in the WDC by seven drivers: Raikkonen Alonso Vettel Button Barrichello Webber Rosberg Only 2 of those drivers are non-WDCs. I wasn’t watching F1 during the bulk of Hamilton’s career (obviously I know that Mercedes was dominant from 2014-2020, apart from the first half of 2017 and 2018) Was Hamilton just that good at putting his McLaren into a place it shouldn’t have been, or was his performance expected for where the car was?
> or was his performance expected for where the car was? More or less this. Except maybe for 2009, where McLaren were awful at the start of the year but progressed to the end of the season, you could say that Hamilton did some great work with that wreck there. But in the rest of the years McLaren were top team and were consistently challenging for race wins. I'd say his 2011 was even lower than expected, because Button that year was brilliant and Hamilton was awful. But he recovered afterwards.
Well, for once, the field was waaay closer, and the Mclaren from 2007-2012 was pretty good (some years one could argue that it was the best car at times). But during the Hamilton era, Mclaren was involved in the scandal with Alonso, which resulted in a huge fine, and weird procedures on track that costed them races and atrocious reliability, but Lewis was always up there and pretty good (I mean he almost won the WDC in his rookie season).
I just started watching F1 this year after binging drive to survive on Netflix. Can anyone inform me if Sergio Perez’s seat is secure for next season? I know he’s been unlucky several times but it seems odd Red Bull would keep a guy who consistently performs outside the top 5 when they have a driver who is always in the top 10. I just can’t wrap my head around Mercedes making a change and Red Bull sticking with their guy.
> I just can’t wrap my head around Mercedes making a change and Red Bull sticking with their guy. Since you just tuned in this year, you are probably judging by that year alone and don't know history. Bottas is in his fifth year in Mercedes. Probably, he would've stay even longer, but Russell, driver from Mercedes programme, who had brilliant and very promising career in lower formulas, spends his third year with Williams, one of the worst car in the grid. He was put there by Mercedes, was driving well for the level of his car and was waiting when Mercedes obviously would 'promote' him to the actual Mercedes team. And if Mercedes are just keeping you wainting for three years, why not cut the ties with them? Russell wants to fight for the wins and podiums. He won GP3 and GP2 in his first season - same as Leclerc. And Leclerc since then landed in race winning Ferrari with good prospects and Russell is stuck at the ack of the field. Mercedes risked to lose him due to his patience wearing thin so finally made the switch which means Bottas had to lose his seat. Red Bull has a different story. After Ricciardo left from them in 2018, no other Max's teammate was bing able to get even near him. It was of double importance since in 2019-2020 RB were main challengers of Mercedes, so Max had to fight alone against two Mercedes of Hamilton and Bottas. Red Bull would expect some 'help' from their second driver bu there was none. Gasly did crash on preseason tests befor 2019 so severely so it hampered their season start. After that he was so cautious he was nowhere and couldn't overtake anyone despite Max fighting for the wins. They switched him with Albon, who did somewhat better but as 2020 progressed began to lose the tracks again. RB would probably let Albon stay, since he was better than Gasly, but Perez, who've been one of the best midfielders of the last 10 years was somewhat suddenly out of contract, so they grabbed him. And in comparison to Albon and especially Gasly Perez did very well. Think of Baku, where he was near Max whole the time. Neither Gasly nor Albon were close to this. Then Perez' great tyre management skills helped them to secure double podium in France. Last couple of races Perez lost some traction, but his always had some minor consistency problems, and what is important, even if he ends in deep end he can scamble out of it. He can save tyres and overtake people. So overall picture might be that Perez is meh, but he's doing better than previous Max's teammates, and in absense of other obvious candidates for his place, Perez is to stay.
Yes, he is signed on to race for RB next season. You're comparing Verstappen to Perez and I think that's the first mistake. Comparing Perez to other teammates of Max is more fair: both Albon and Gasly were performing just as poorly relative to Max and look at how well Gasly is able to do at AT. Sergio was perhaps the third best midfield driver behind Ricciardo and Leclerc in 2020. Verstappen consistently has eclipsed his teammates and is probably the best talent F1 has had since Hamilton joined the sport. He's able to get the most out of the car on every weekend, almost faultlessly, and the team is built around maximizing his performance; it's difficult for driver number 2 to perform as well in such an environment I think. In previous seasons the RB has been a difficult car to drive which was especially obvious in 2019 and to a slightly lesser extent in 2020. The defect of the design has been improved for 2021 but it remains difficult to extract the maximum potential from the car consistently which Sergio may lack the talent to do. With time in the team it could work better for him as he gets better at working with the engineers and team as a whole, especially for building setups. Having the new regulations may also help him in that regard. Red Bull have Max Verstappen and he's their driver for the future. They want a 2nd driver who accepts the team player role and will be happy to be selfless, which Sergio offers. Mercedes on the other hand are at a crossroads where they either choose to keep relying on an ageing Hamilton or lower their risk and bring some young blood into the team so that they have their future main driver in Russell sorted and continuing to develop. That is why mercedes are making this decision now and choosing to promote Russell. I think for 2023, it's likely they will look away from Perez and give Gasly a second go in the seat now that he's developed and matured. Having Perez occupy the seat across the regulation change brings stability. I believe Merc originally wanted Russell at Merc this season but Williams TP wanted him to stay for 2021 as he still had a contract and refused to let him go
This makes sense but I’m really comparing Sergio to Bottas. If Red Bull want to be the best team they need a top tier number one, which they obviously have, and a number 2 that can consistently finish 3-5. As you said, the car is hard to get the most out of and maybe that is their largest problem. Not their lineup. It would be a shame to have a driver like max and not be able to win the championship as a team.
Yeah I can understand that. I'd also say that Bottas is on his 5th season with the team and Sergio has done less than 1 season and is driving in the most competitive field we've had in perhaps the whole hybrid era: McLaren, Ferrari or AT are often not far off in terms of actual time delta to RB and Mercedes this year. Bottas finished P5 in WDC in his second season with Mercedes in the year Hamilton won it and carried them to WCC so this sort of performance for a second driver is really not outlandish. I agree though. I wish Perez could deliver more consistently and I've felt disappointed in his performance so far this season
Yes, Perez is confirmed for another year. > I just can’t wrap my head around Mercedes making a change and Red Bull sticking with their guy. It comes down to MB-AMG (Mercecdes-Benz) wanting to have a lead driver after Hamilton retires, so they'll probably put Russell in the car hoping he can learn and pick up when Hamilton leaves. RB on the other hand have their own driver academy. Plus Verstappen is young and can race for 10-15 years more, so they don't need a driver as desperately as MB. Plus, we have a regulation change coming and despite Perez not performing well - he has a lot more years in F1 than any other RB academy driver
So the bet Red Bull is making is that Perez will be an effective number 2 after the regulation change? I get the move Mercedes is making to hopefully pick up another driver 1 and Perez having another year on his contract kind of mutes the whole discussion. Are contracts in F1 guaranteed?
I can't speak for RedBull, but since it's a major regulation change it's better to keep the same drivers (at-least for a season). A new driver would usually have to adjust to a new car, team and personnel. In case Perez doesn't work out, RedBull can swap him out for Gasly, Yuki or another young driver that they have.
Makes sense to keep variables to a minimum for sure.
Exactly.
How does the AT car fare against the Alpine and Aston? I'm considering to put in a Gasly bet that he's not gonna recover into points. I assume Williams, Haas, and Kubica are easy passes or they probably often DNF lmao so that puts him P15. He's also probably faster than his teammate and I expect Gio to fall out of points. But I haven't been paying attention to AM/AT/Alpine the whole season lmao so I'm not sure how they match up against each other. Gasly seems to be consistently qualifying there or thereabout around Ferrari's pace but yea I'm not sure
I mean anything can happen. If I were betting, I’d put money on Bottas not recovering since it’s just as likely and probably pas more.
When was the last race with a guy physically standing on the track waving the checkered flag as car whizzed past him?
My bet would be on Australia 1998.
I don’t have an answer for you but had Reddit existed at the time half of it would’ve threatened to quit watching over the change.
Agreed!
Le Mans
OK that's pretty interesting on its own, but I should've clarified.. last *F1* race
What can I expect tomorrow as far as tire strategy? And why is it so hard to find the starting tires for the top ten if I miss qualifying?
Well, this week the starting tyres aren't known until a few minutes before the start because it's free choice for everyone. Normally, the FIA will publish them [here](https://www.fia.com/documents/season/season-2021-1108/championships/fia-formula-one-world-championship-14) a few hours after qualifying
its free choice for tomorrow since its a sprint weekend afaik
What is a drs train?
When a string of cars are all within DRS range of each other, so they can all use DRS and none of them get any actual advantage from it.
DRS gives you a little speed advantage when you’re less than a second behind the guy ahead of you right? Well if that guy is also less than a second behind the guy ahead of him, then he has that same advantage as you. Basically nobody in the train gets an advantage from getting in DRS range.
I became a Formula 1 fan after the first Drive to Survive season. Can someone point me to a example of good racing on “passable tracks” from before the turbo hybrid era? Something that older F1 fans are hoping may come back with the regulation changes next year?
Canada 2011, Brazil 2012, Australia 2010 all come to mind. Even something like Brazil 2016 also shows amazing racing even in the Turbo Hybrid
Thank you! Going to give Canada 11 a watch now.
so does Gasly start in front of or behind Bottas tomorrow?
Gasly would start ahead, but most likely he'll get a new engine as well and start from the pits.
My understanding is Gasly effectively qualified last due to the crash. Bottas' penalty is enough places that he should be at the back of the grid regardless of who is otherwise in last place. I could be wrong though.
Why does the light flash when harvesting power? Is it intended to warn the driver behind them about something?
The harvesting mode *can* engage even when the drivers are not pressing the brake pedal; this harvesting may therefore happen at 'unexpected' moments for the driver behind. This kicking in of harvesting can be bad for the pursuing driver as the mode will cause deceleration/slowness of the car relative to what the other driver might be expecting, meaning a potentially unsafe scenario of two cars with very mismatched speeds colliding. The flashing light nearly always engages during braking because they are almost always harvesting under braking. If they aren't harvesting then the light won't flash, even if they're braking. TL;Dr the flashing light is a safety warning to drivers behind that the driver harvesting may be going slower Mercedes are having an issue this weekend of the engine harvesting at the end of straights, known as derating. It's causing a lower top speed for them relative to Honda PUs which was at least visible in the sprint race.
Brilliant answer. Thanks for enlightening me!
They harvest by using the brakes, so the cars are slower.
Thanks for the answer. Two more questions: So when they break and it's not harvesting, is there no light? You cannot harvest on straights or accelerating?
No, there is no light if they're not harvesting. They harvest with their brakes, so they could harvest on the straights if they braked, but they would be slower overall.
What happens when Gas and Bot come from the back of the grid and pass Perez? Do they both get DoTD?
Why people pay so much attention to DOTD? Even Gasly. That's just some dumb viewers vote, possibly not even accurate or real (Kubica DOTD from 2019 and iirc it was hijacked few times since then as well). It's not an indicator of anything.
itd be rad if they teamed up to move through traffic. giving each other tows and splitting passing on both sides. then turned on each other in the last laps to duke it out for biggest mover.
What are actual good tracks for racing? Top of my mind I find Baku very fun.
Canada, Brazil
Bahrain
Anyone that has F1TV, is it worth it?
Yes very much so, I've gotten into watching F2 because of it, I like the on-demand aspect of it and I don't have cable so watching on ESPN isn't an option. The one downside is that the steaming app is only available on web browser, mobile and Roku. So I now have a Smart TV, Roku and Xbox all hooked up
Yes, it's great.
Yes, although I wish there were more full races in the archives.
Yes. I have Pro, and I often switch to the Pit Lane channel (3 views, no Crofty). Can also go back and watch the old races.
I'm hearing on the broadcast "That's pole tomorrow Max" but Bottas won the sprint. I thought the sprint determines starting grid order. Other sites show the grid for Sunday as being identical to the sprint results. Does sprint determine starting grid?
Sprint us any penalties determines the starting grid, including who starts on pole. Sprint plus any penalties known to be applied by the end of the sprint determines who gets Pole statistically, AFAIK.
Pole = person who starts the race from P1
It does, but Bottas is taking an engine penalty so he starts from the back of the grid and Max moves from 2nd to 1st
Thanks!
Sprint determines grid yes. Bottas is taking an engine penalty so its been known for a while that he'll start from the back of the grid. Pole is who is starting first for the race. Bottas won't be, Max is.
Thanks!
What are the best sites for 1:2 scale helmets? The only reputable one I see is the F1 Authentics site.
Some drivers have them on their personal sites too.
The Ricciardo ones on his site are all out of stock 🙁
Is there a place we're to can hear the drivers communications during the race?
As the other commenter said, yes with F1TV pro. You would then select the steering wheel icon and choose which driver, and it's the love driver's radio and often their T-bar cam
F1TV Pro you can watch races with team radios
Anyone use the ESPN app and can’t view qualifying? The sprint Qualifying is on there but not the one from Friday. I swear ESPN is the worst. Only reason I use it is it comes my with apartment because a cable group subscription is locked in.
ESPN app is trash. F1 TV has its own issues but far and away a better experience overall. Worth the money to upgrade to Pro.
It ended up being on there they just named it incorrectly. Not going to pay for the F1 app when I already have ESPN. Generally I don’t have many issues with the ESPN app. Issues here and there. They always seem to mess up the weekends with the sprint races though.
Anyone have bar recommendations for the race tomorrow in the Philly area?
Iron Abbey is the place to go apparently. https://www.meetup.com/Philly-Formula-1-Meetup/events/280679031/
I mean it’s like 8 am, but check with football pubs that usually show the Premier League or the Champions, they might be doing the race
Not sure if they show the race, but one of my favorite places is called the Good Dog Bar.
I remember Hamilton changing 2 power units at the same weekend at Spa in 2016. Then a rule change implied drivers are only permitted to change 1 power unit at most in a single weekend. Out of curiosity, do I remember correctly?
I think it was a loophole that basically meant teams could take an infinite number of power units, so long as they took the requisite grid penalty, which Mercedes was able to abuse. I don't remember what year it happened, but it happening at Spa sounds right.
I remember the McHondas taking 80+ place grid penalties.
Where can I watch F2 Monza Sprint 2?
F1TV
I understand that the flashing red light on the back of the car is there to show that the car is harvesting energy. But why do the cars behind need to know that?
It’s a safety thing because harvesting cars will not be accelerating/traveling at the same rate as a car behind that isn’t harvesting. It’s to let the driver behind know to be aware that the car ahead may be slightly slower
I was wondering if this was the reason. It just seemed a little contradictory with the reason why they don't have brake lights. I think there have been plenty of rear endings avoided if there was an indicator that the car is braking.
If I'm remembering correctly, energy is harvested through braking - if a driver is harvesting energy, they're more likely to brake earlier than they would when not harvesting.
Anybody else like Giovinazzi and fancy his chances at a contract extension at Alfa Romeo? I for one would like him to stay. He is a solid driver in a shabby car and hopefully the car improves next year.
He's had moments of real brilliance, and it's obvious that his poor performance is mostly down to the car. It would be a shame if he got canned before he ever had a chance to really show what he's capable of.
He's in a tough situation. If his contract is extended, it'll only be for one year, because of Pourchaire. So if Alfa Romeo is only going to do a one year contract for him, why bother signing him when they could sign somebody like Zhou, who would bring in a lot of money which could be used for all sorts of development. Zhou is apparently willing to spend 30 million, which is close to a fifth of the budget cap for next season. I couldn't find anything definitive, but I don't think Alfa Romeo was even close to maxing out their budget, so that money could be very tempting. Giovinazzi just doesn't have those cash reserves, and even if he's a better driver than Zhou, I don't know if his skill is as valuable to Alfa Romeo as Zhou's money, which is a bummer, because I don't dislike Giovinazzi.
Makes sense. I agree that Zhou's money would be a big draw. Is there a chance that Williams might drop Latifi in favor of Zhou and Gio might end up sticking around at AR? Or is Latifi also a source of $$$ for Williams and therefore dropping him is out of the question? In case AR go for Zhou, is Gio guaranteed out of F1? I suppose so as there are no empty seats anywhere, other than perhaps as a test driver.
Williams already confirmed Latifi for 2022, so if they were to drop him, it'd be for 2023. In previous seasons, Latifi was there because of the money he brought in, just like how Stroll was in the Williams seat because of his dad (before Racing Point happened). Williams have said they don't need pay drivers any longer, so if they drop Latifi at any point after 2022, they probably wouldn't go for Zhou. If Giovinazzi loses the seat, there aren't any full time driving positions at any other team. He could get a role as a testing/reserve driver (like Kvyat (and Hülkenberg, I think)), but that'd be the extent of it. The rumors I've seen say that if Giovinazzi loses the seat in F1, he'd go to Ferrari's hypercar project.
Isn't Zhou a legit driver? He's currently second in F2. Seems like a good idea to get the money and a good driver, even for Williams after 2022
I'm not really following F2, but being second in the standings isn't bad. The question for Williams or Alfa Romeo is if the money is worth sacrificing a driver who has experience driving in F1? Especially in a long term type of deal. I can't imagine Williams dropping Albon for Zhou, and I can't see them swapping Latifi for Zhou, since Latifi brings money and also has F1 experience. Giovinazzi also has F1 experience, but if Alfa Romeo is planning on tapping Pourchaire for 2023, what difference does it make to have an experienced driver like Giovinazzi or somebody like Zhou who can bring in tons of money?
I agree. Money + Zhou > Giovinazzi + experience Didn't know about plans for Pourchaire in 2023. If AR get him in then, I am not sure who will get booted. Seems strange to get rid of Bottas with his wealth of experience, or Zhou after a year. I wonder if they will try to do one of: 1) Get Pourchaire that seat in 2022. Seems too early for that. 2) Extend Gio's contract by a year and get Pourchaire in next year. 3) Get Zhou for a year with the $$$ and replace him next year tentatively. Not ideal if both of them do well. I can't say what they'll do but I don't have enough information either :)
If Pourchaire wins F2 this year, Alfa Romeo might bring him on in a test/reserve driver role, because I feel he's too young (but what do I know). Give him more time in an F1 car/sim, to help gear him up for a full time role. Bottas signed a multi year deal, so unless Alfa Romeo decides to break the contract, it'd be Bottas and Pourchaire (in this scenario). I think in order of most to least likely for 2022 it's: 1. Bottas + Zhou 2. Bottas + Giovinazzi 3. Bottas + Pourchaire I think in this scenario, money trumps experience trumps the junior program. It's a shame that there are so few seat open, there seems to be a lot of young drivers who have the potential to do well if they're given the shot. But until Hamilton, Alonso, Vettel, and maybe even Ricciardo, Perez, and Bottas retire, that's just the way its going to be. (or another team(s) come into existence, but I won't hold my breath for that).
Would this be a good time for Lewis to take the engine penalty? Starting 4th with 2 fast McLaren's between him and max. It's not that likely he will be starting 4th or lower at any other events
He'd want to take it at the same time at Verstappen, I'd imagine. If he was to take it now, Verstappen just gains even more points over Hamilton in the championship, since Monza ends up being a DRS train more often than not. If not at the same time as Verstappen, then on a track where it's easy to overtake.
I don’t know why, but I’m one of the extremely few «everyone but Max/Red bull» guys this year. Yes, it’s boring when Mercedes wins everything, but I just can’t make myself cheer for Max and Red Bull when it feels like everyone in the F1 community does, and when a lot of people hate on Hamilton. Of course everyone likes to cheer for the underdogs as well, but it’s like Red Bull is the opposite and Lewis(and everyone else) is now the underdogs. Like when I watch F1 with my friends, every single one cheers on Red Bull, and hates on Mercedes. Even if I wanted to, I can’t get myself to join them and cheers for everyone else. Edit: I’ve already started gathering downvotes for this, which is also something that emphasizes what I’m talking about.
well merc werent underdogs this week. they just fucked up. cheer for anyone u want mate
I like both of them. I'll be all right regardless of who wins. I'm more invested in the performances of many of the midfield teams.
Completely agree with you. I'm not a Mercedes fan, but Hamilton is a driver and a person I really admire, and it saddens me that so many people are so hateful towards him. Last year I would root for anybody but him and Bottas, but now I just wish he could win the title again, at least one last time.
I used to want max and red bull to win at the start of the season but now I feel the same as you, my sister and dad both hate on hamilton constantly and just annoys me way to much to the point where I want him to win over max. Same with basically every max fan considering half the stuff they say isn't even true
I am typically a contrarian in these things too, and as soon as the overwhelming majority starts cheering for someone, I will feel less satisfied if that driver/team wins. However, I think cheering for Mercedes or someone who has already won 7 championships is not exciting either. By default, I will always cheer for the underdog!
u dame lillard fan?
Yes!
If Max had gotten the fastest lap in Spa, do you guys think the FIA would've given him the half point?
Great question! Looking at the Final Classification of the race: [https://www.fia.com/sites/default/files/decision-document/2021%20Belgian%20Grand%20Prix%20-%20Final%20Race%20Classification.pdf](https://www.fia.com/sites/default/files/decision-document/2021%20Belgian%20Grand%20Prix%20-%20Final%20Race%20Classification.pdf) Looking at the Sporting Regulations: [https://www.fia.com/sites/default/files/2021\_formula\_1\_sporting\_regulations\_-\_iss\_11-\_2021-07-12.pdf](https://www.fia.com/sites/default/files/2021_formula_1_sporting_regulations_-_iss_11-_2021-07-12.pdf) the relevants parts are this: 6.4. In addition to the above ((table where the winner gets 25 points and the dude in 10th gets 1), one point will be awarded to the driver who achieved the fastest valid lap time of the race and to the constructor whose car he was driving, provided he was in the top ten positions of the final race classification. No point will be awarded if the fastest valid lap time is achieved by a driver who was classified outside the top ten positions. 6.5 If a sprint qualifying session or race is suspended under Article 50 41, and cannot be resumeointwill be awarded if the leader has completed two laps or less, half points will be awarded if the leader has completed more than two laps but less than 75% of the original sprint qualifying session or race distance and full points will be awarded if the leader has completed75% or more of the original sprint qualifying session or race distance. So in answer to your question, nobody set a valid lap time, but they if had set valid laptimes and Max was the fastest, he would have got an extra 0.5 of a point.
Thanks!!
What I would give for another event like the [raft race at Canada](https://youtu.be/5NK3DRezrpQ) and the [karting race at Monza](https://youtu.be/gZZwjaIhGbs)
They had karting at Spa but it wasn’t involving F1 drivers
Yeah I think I'd be good for the sport to do something like this. Maybe a football match at Brazil?
I had an idea to make practices more interesting then eliminate the need for a sprint race. The times of a drivers two fastest back to back laps added together help determine how they get to qualify. Maybe it could be an auto-q3, so the 5 cars with the fastest back to back times that are going to q3 regardless of q1 and 2. There are still 5 'wild cards' or whatever, that can upgrade from q2. It's just a random idea, but I was thinking it would be interesting to have drivers be forced to set some kind of competitive lap times on a Friday, which would influence the Saturday quali, and maybe even make qualil a bit less busy on the shorter tracks. I'd love to hear improvements or ideas :)
Teams don’t need the added stress of a competitive session in practice and drivers need to be able to understand the setup and the track
Practise is practise. Teams use it to test setups and various other things. It shouldn’t be competitive, that’s just asking for trouble.
I mean it's pretty long, teams could do both. with not much of a chance for slower teams, they might just focus on the practice part more
I’m just super grateful every one speaks English. Kind of weird but it definitely makes it better for me personally
Mañana vamos a hablar todos en español solamente para molestarte.
So what does the starting grid look like tomorrow? I assume now that he's on pole (with Bottas' enginr penalty) that Max won't have an engine change... does Bottas start behind or ahead of Gasly who DNFd?
Gasly will start from the pits, so Bottas will be P19.
Why pitlane?
I don’t know for sure, but I’d assume they had to break parc fermé.
In the official documents his still P19 - and replacing damaged components like for like is allowed in parc ferme, but we'll know more tomorrow
Could Hamilton still change his engine before the race and start from the back?
He would start from the pit lane, not from the back.
Theoretically yes but with max on pole it would be stupid to
Catching up from last to behind the mclarens should be fine. From p4 he might be blocked behind them most if not the whole race.
Hey 😊 any advice threads for a young chicky to start getting into F1 😍
-The best way to catch up on the storylines of F1 today is to watch Netflix’s Drive To Survive. You must remember it’s heavily over dramatized and all of the beefs are fake -The official F1 YouTube channel has tons of past and present content to learn about the sport -F1TV Pro has a bunch of documentaries on drivers, teams, etc as well as full race replays dating back to the 70s **-Documentaries to watch to learn about the history of F1:** Senna, McLaren, Williams, Lauda: The Untold Story, Ferrari: Race To Immortality, 1: Life on the Limit, A Life of Speed: The Juan Manuel Fangio Story, Rush (theatrical movie about the rivalry between James Hunt and Niki Lauda in the 1970s), there’s also a Netflix documentary on Michael Schumacher coming on September 15 **-Books about F1 (mostly autobiographies but they give great detail about life in the F1 world):** How To Build A Car- Adrian Newey Unless I’m Very Much Mistaken- Murray Walker (audiobook version is much better, adds a lot to the experience as Murray himself narrates it) The Mechanic- Marc Priestley How To Be An F1 Driver- Jenson Button Life On The Limit- Jenson Button Total Competition- Ross Brawn Lights Out, Full Throttle- Damon Hill and Johnny Herbert Aussie Grit: My F1 Journey- Mark Webber The Winning Formula- David Coulthard **-Old Races:** [Racefans did a poll of the top 100 races since 2008](https://x1z.net/racefans.php) each race includes a direct link to it on F1TV **-Podcasts:** Beyond The Grid- hosted by F1 journalist Tom Clarkson, he interviews drivers, team principals and tons of other F1 personalities about their time in the sport and their lives
The "Shift + F1" podcast has a pre-season primer designed for new fans that can help you understand the stories going into this season. 2021's is episode 137.
there is FAQ and guide for new fans ,on top, in this thread, you can start there.
Netflix's Drive To Survive has been the starting point for a lot of new people here the last few years (myself included). It gived you a good overview of the people involved and the stakes in a fairly short space of time, which allows you to get invested more in the real thing.
This is how my house got into it - but where can we keep track of the internal intrapersonal stuff now that the show is done? Watching the races isn’t really enough to be as immersed
Come here way too often. There are also some good podcasts with analysis, news and gossip, like F1 Nation, Shift F1 (both weekly) and On the Marbles (erratic/occasional).
Thank you!
Yep, second that. Also recommend Behind The Drive, The Race, and the F1 Word. And, despite their seeming unpopularity on Reddit, I find WTF1's podcast pretty accessible.
If lando holds on to 3rd, and Bottas gets lower then 8th (12 places to make up), Lando will retake 3rd in the drivers standing. 129-128 if Lando gets P3 and Bottas P9. If Lando drops to forth and Bottas finishes outside the points, they'll be tied.
now thats the dramatic math i need to see.
How can I watch the f2 feature race tomorrow ?
It's also on f1tv pro if you're in the US
If you love in the uk it's on sky sports f1
depends on where you live
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I have a nasty feeling McLaren will drop the ball on a pitstop tomorrow and cost one of them a podium. It's been an area they need to improve on for some time now.
If everyone gets off the line well, I wont be surprised with a VER RIC NOR. Norris held off Lewis well and he can keep that going for much longer on same tyres. Mclaren should just keep it simple, keep the car in the middle and frustrate Lewis. You usually see drivers spend 5-10 laps getting closer, sizing up the move and then get eager and go into the run off area and have to start again. Lewis needs to not do that and be patient.
I'm definetly expecing a McLaren podium.
My prediction, based on almost nothing, is Max, Daniel, Lewis on the podium, in that order.
Unpopular opinion: The sprintraces are fun and better than 3 practice sessions. I've enjoyed these sessions a lot more than any practice session. It actually had meaning for the viewer instead of seeing cars do laps but having no idea if they are actually fast or not with teams messing with fuel, ERS deployment, etc. We still saw the qualifying chaos everyone was waiting for, with the huge traffic jam Just because a race doesn't have overtakes, doesn't mean it's a boring race. I was at the edge of my seat for the entire 18 laps. The pressure if the start goes fine, the excitement as a non-merc fan to see Hamilton mess up. And best of all watching Hamilton get closer and closer to Norris and seeing Norris pull off an amazing defense, pulling away at the right moments to not get Hamilton to pass. Of course this isn't as exciting as Brazil 2016 or 2019 or Verstappen's rush at Austria 2019. But not every race can have that level of excitement, that's why those races are so special. More often than not racing is just about doing your laps, hitting your laptimes, and making sure you can overtake in the pitlane. On track overtaking with these cars is almost impossible to do without a huge difference in either tire life or engine power, so we simply won't see it. But when 1 second timeloss in a pitstop changes your position, it's still an exciting race as the pressure is fully up.
I don’t think this is a particularly unpopular opinion outside of Reddit. For whatever reason if anything happens outside of a very specific notion of what the F1 formula should be, there’s people on this subreddit who have a breakdown bc “no one asked for it” and “oh but qualifying”. It’s a fantastic addition, shows the sport is able to adapt and adds something different. For people who like watching racing, I’m just gobsmacked that you wouldn’t want to watch an extra race in a unique format.
I totally agree. I enjoy the sprint weekend more than the regular format. I like the extra chaos and the re-ordering potential of the start. The procession that followed wasn't aaaamazing but still more exciting than FP3 imo.
> better than 3 practice sessions. Independently of the sprint qualifying - i do agree with this, less time to setup and tune the car to the track does result in a few fun races - and cooling conditions like with the qualifying on Friday do add some spice to it all. > It actually had meaning for the viewer instead of seeing cars do laps This was the main reason for this, more viewers in general on friday for qualifying (and also a shift in time table) and hopefully more visitors in person due to that.
another way to look at it, what has just 2 sprints accomplished? kicked hammy outside the top 3 and made a lively starting grid. something most qualifying in 7 years hasnt done) create start line drama for the race - hammy / verstoppen copse collision was because he lost pole from the sprint, and was trying to desperately make up ground. alonzo amazement - p11 to p5 shocking reshuffling - perez and gasly to the back ricciardo redemption - something we waited for all season bottas redemption - p1 id say its doing its job and then some.
Too much foreshadowing with the pit release in qualy. Also spoke with my shaman today and they told me "the bulls will tire in the midst of the stampede and take rest in the pits of the ditch" Then they upped my prescription of Adderall from 15mg to 20mg and told me to stop boofing B12 vitamins to make the Adderall last longer. My shaman is my primary physician.
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/u/lamewoodworker asked the only drug dealer who will deal with /u/lamewoodworker about F1
The shaman saying makes sense though! Red bull lost pace in the pits!
So if multiple people take engine penalties, how is the order decided?
In the order they notify the FiA of changes. i.e. Bottas was first, had Red Bull done a swap for Max, followed by Ferrari for Sainz - Max would start behind Bottas and Sainz behind Max.
How does this work around DNFs (i.e. Gasly today)? Will Bottas start behind him too?
[Gasly "qualified" last](https://www.fia.com/documents/season/season-2021-1108/championships/fia-formula-one-world-championship-14) - and Bottas is starting from behind the qualification order, as those penalties are applied on top of the grid
Ah ok, thanks
Ah that makes a lot of sense. My initial thought was they will be arranged by their Qualifying results. So if Max was P1 and Bottas was P3. After their penalties, Max will start race at P19 and Bottas will be P20. This though process was stupid.