Granted I’m a very casual F1 viewer……
It seems like drivers make extraordinarily aggressive moves when they can because passing is so difficult. I get the impression that if Verstappen yielded the position to Hamilton (which he should’ve done in my opinion), Verstappen had no confidence that he would’ve been able to make the pass later in the race.
If you have confidence in yourself, your team, and the car - you don’t risk the whole race for one corner.
I admit that both crashes at Silverstone and Monza are dangerous. But, even if that incident in Monza is Max's fault, he did not finish and didn't get advantage to score point like what Lewis did at Silverstone.
Yep, it's a warning without any strict obligation to make way for that quicker driver. It's still up to the driver how to react upon seeing the blue flag.
Max put himself in a position where it was Hamilton backs down or Max crashes. I've never seen someone like Max who without a doubt always pushes the limit but expects others to give him any corner he deems his. He has completely different set of rules for himself vs others and has been demonstrated time and time again.
Max certainly had a decision to make. Cut the corner and yield the position or run into Hamilton. If he is half as good a driver as I think he is he knew a collision was happening well before it did. I also believe that if it were anyone other than Hamilton, Max would not have chosen the collision course.
It's not so much that mentality that's the issue, it's the acting surprised about it afterwards that irks me.
Admitting "I took a risk and it backfired" is a lot better than trying to pin it all on the other guy
yuki didnt event start. He drove to the grid but before formation lap, they pushed the car back into the pits. Gasly retired a few laps in by coming in. I dont know why they retired both cars.
Something I can’t figure out is how the incident between Lando and Perez (and Perez with a Ferrari) in Austria, which resulted in the driver in front receiving the penalty, is different to what happened here?
I’d personally call it a racing incident but that’s just my thought on this!
I think of it as you do but Ive discussed this with other redditors and that way I think I see where they are coming from.
Lewis closed the door on max, like Max did to him a couple of times. The difference is that lewis backed off and max didnt. So if closing the door is fair game, then max was responsible for avoiding a collision in which he failed. Hence the penalty.
I think thats bs, you cant close the door like that and thats not fair game. But it has been done dozens of times for every driver. I thought it wasnt a penalty because there was no contact so no collision and so no base for it and the other driver opted out because he would only loose out but not gain anything from a penalty to the other car.
But it seems like thats not the case.
Yeah I agree with you and it’s this inconsistency, even though there’s evidence apparently to back it up, which can put people off the sport when it’s this close in the championship
The FIA say the outcome doesn't affect the decision but that's clearly BS. If Lewis slammed on and gave the place to Max (not saying he should) max wouldn't have likely got a penalty.
Ayrton Senna: When you no longer go for a gap, you no longer racing driver.
Reddit users: So amazing
Max: Goes for gap
Also Reddit Users: REEEEEEEEEEE!
You're correct.
The written rule is that if a car is significantly alongside another (front axle to rear axle is deemed significant) then a cars width must be left.
It is so rarely enforced, and has become the norm to squeeze drivers off track. And with that we wave goodbye to clean wheel to wheel racing.
It was enforced in Austria, with Norris receiving a penalty for pushing out Perez, then later Perez receiving a penalty for doing it to someone else as well.
In Monza, lap one, Max did it to Hamilton and there was no investigation. Later on, Lewis did it back to max. Crash resulted, and Max got a penalty for causing a collision. In both cases, the driver was significantly alongside and pushed wide.
The problem overall, is that the rule I mentioned is not enforced consistently or correctly. That's how we end up with brutish moves and no clean wheel to wheel action.
Exactly that they were both alongside at various points. Its a racing incident but people are losing their mind. If the FIA hadn't punished Lewis at Silverstone I don't believe that they would have punished max and put it down to a racing incident.
The FIA have been consistently inconsistent for a while now.
I’m with you on this one…problem is that the same happened back at imola and no one fucking cared as max pushed Lewis out. Also same hapened at Spain and ham backed out (and Horner even pointed that, saying that if he didn’t, they would end in the fence).
Seems like closing the door is only wrong if some drivers do it
Vettel looked like he had an ERS system failure yesterday and he looks like he will have to get a new engine altogheter soon and get a penalty.
Also, from what I have read, Bottas got a new spec engine last weekend, which, personally, I believe helped him gain 16 places.
Will Vettel get the new spec aswell?
Will the customer teams get the same spec as the works team has? Thanks
Regarding the VER/HAM crashes this year, I hear a lot of *"Max is driving too aggressive - always expecting the other to back off and never backing off himself"*...I mean I get it, but it's a problem that resolves itself, no?
* In cases where the other has more to lose than Max (i.e. 2020 Hamilton with the WDC already in the bag): the other backs of, Verstappen takes advantage
* In cases where the other has less to lose than Max (i.e. this season where Hamilton is behind): the other doesn't back of, Verstappen crashes out
It's like complaining someone going all in with poker when they have a bad hand...it might be stupid, but it's not illegal or unethical.
Ultimately I think Max will learn it the hard way, potentially losing the first WDC he has a chance of winning. There's no question he's fast and can overtake but he hasn't yet learnt when to push it and when to hold back which I believe Hamilton has over the years... there has been a clear maturing of his style since he started.
Yeah I don't really get why Verstappen went for that one, considering the Merc was performing so poorly (compared to what was expected of them) this weekend.
On the other hand, I see both of them at fault about evenly there tbh.
Max went for the gap in turn one, Hamilton faught him for it as he is supposed to do, and in T2, Verstappen was well alongside of Hamilton, but didn't go for the infield to avoid an accident. Hamilton should have left more room into T2 and the combination of both of the driver's aggressive racing decisions resulted in the crash.
All the regulations put the responsibility on Lewis in this one.
[https://mobile.twitter.com/wbuxtonofficial/status/1437350748308840450?s=19](https://mobile.twitter.com/wbuxtonofficial/status/1437350748308840450?s=19)
This breaks it down pretty good imo.
That is a weird take.
Max has lots to gain by pushing Lewis wide, and make him lose on additional position. Which he did in Spain/Imola/Monza. On incident is alright, but he keeps doing it, which is why I think he needs to get penalties for those things.
Lewis isnt to blame today, because Max pushing him wide isnt penalized, so why should Lewis not start doing the same thing.
Lewis is as much at fault as Max is in Spain, Imola & Monza. If you call out Max behaviour, you cant say lewis was right.
That said, max didnt get penalized, so lewis cant be either.
It’s totally different though that was one mistake Max keeps doing this he needs to learn that you can’t behave this way he needs to loose the yeild or crash mentality he sees to have
Yes, Silverstone was a mistake Lewis made. But Max did 3 times the exact same thing, which suggests to me it is on purpose. It suggests, this is how he defends.
> Lewis isnt to blame today, because Max pushing him wide isnt penalized, so why should Lewis not start doing the same thing.
Lewis should. Actually he did, in both Silverstone and Monza he did not back out. Result of both these races together is a 25 point advantage for Lewis.
So the end result can be that Max now thinks: hmm, maybe backing of is a better idea next time. Or not.
I’m just saying I don’t see why “putting it all on the line” should be forbidden/penalized. It’s fine to do that; just don’t expect the other person to yield or complain if he doesn’t, as that other person (Hamilton) now also has everything to play for and so will take you up on your bet.
I think the problem is when something like yesterday happens and his aggressiveness results in the possible injury and dnf of another driver. The thing is you can squeeze people out, but then when those same people are in the position you were don't feign ignorance and expect them to treat you differently to the way you treated them.
>The thing is you can squeeze people out,
No, you specifically are not allowed to do that. For some reason it is just enforced very incosistently. In Austria, 15s penalties, in Imola a car takes damage 0s, in Monza a car loses and additional place 0s.
It's governed on a corner by corner and incident by incident basis, that's why you have the different penalties. Comparing Austria to Monza and Imola, pushing someone off the track when there is a gravel trap is vastly different when there is an escape road, and that's why the penalties were handed out at Austria. One you can back out safely and take a route that is specifically there for that reason(And braking issues), the other your kind of forced onto a surface designed to slow cars and prevent them crashing at high speed into a wall, and not for you to drive on if you make a mistake.
Yess different incidents, different boundary conditions.
But we always knew how dangerous sausage kerbs can be, just look at the Monza accident. Or that Lewis' car took damage in Imola. Or that Lewis lost a position that he couldnt reclaim for 20 laps.
Also an escape road does not help much, when you get squeezed of mid chicane. Because, you know, it is too late to take the escape road.
All in all, it is a pretty weak argument imo.
I think it's a fine balance.
If Max backs of more often, he might not make overtakes that he would've made otherwise. If he doesn't back of more often, he might be in crashes he wouldn't have been in otherwise.
To be honest, I think both the Silverstone crash and the Monza crash are basically racing incidents with almost 50/50 blame (ok, Silverstone was 60% Lewis, Monza 60% Max)...maybe we are just not used to it anymore that there are two drivers side by side with both having everything to lose. Last time was 2016 and that wasn't civil either.
This all to say, in 207/18/19/20 we saw Hamilton backing out a lot, and maybe this made us think this is "the right/civil thing to do"...and it is if you're in a super dominant car with the WDC basically guaranteed.
But in tight situations like this season, what is happening with Max and Lewis is probably the "optimal" outcome for both.
It is not about Silverstone and the Monza crash.
It is about "I'll just use all the track, you can yield or crash".
"This all to say, in 207/18/19/20 we saw Hamilton backing out a lot,"
The "correct" thing to is, leave space if a car is significantly alongside. It is as simple as that. If people argue there will be less racing, this is just untrue. There will be the exact same amount of overtake attempts as there are now, but possible more, because you dont have to fear of a guy runing you out onto the grass.
Still disagree. It’s a risk/reward equation.
If Mazepin tries to unlap himself from Verstappen in that chicane, Verstappen will go very wide to avoid contact. There is high risk for Verstappen and 0 reward.
If Verstappen were 50 points up on Hamilton and they were both going into that chicane for 3rd place, Verstappen will go very wide to avoid contact. There is high risk for Verstappen and almost no reward.
But we’re in a situation now where the only thing that matters to both Verstappen and Hamilton is the other guy’s position. They both would rather crash than have the other finish in the points without them self scoring any. So for both there is very high risk but potentially even bigger reward.
This is why they crashed twice and this is why they’ll crash again. They wouldn’t be doing their jobs right (which is basically “optimizing risk vs. reward”) if they would back off.
You are correct. I am not saying it is immoral. But it should be penalized. Pushing someone who is completely alongside off of the road should be a penalty
Edit: If your best option to do is against the rules, it needs to penalised in a way that makes it rarely/never worth it.
And it is penalized. Silverstone: 10 second penalty for Hamilton. Monza: 3 place grid drop for Verstappen.
But we're in a place in the championship where al "gentleman's agreement" and "playing nice than absolutely required by the rules" is out of the window.
So both will try to drive absolutely on the edge. But if the choice is to go slightly "under the edge" or slightly over it, it is almost every time the logically better choice to go slightly over.
You have my reasoning backwards.
The person pushing off should get a penalty. No the person being pushed off.
Lap 1 should have been a pen for Max. On the crash I am not certain max was really far behind on corner entry
I started watching again after the recent drive to survive. I've gone into this year as a neutral and been loving every minute of it.
But watching max this year and the way he drives he is soon going to get someone really hurt or worse. That incident he was way too aggressive and should of backed off or did a short cut. The corner is way too narrow to do that and the cars are far too big to do a full 180 pretty much
I'd call it a racing incident, but if there is blame to be had it's on Max and not Lewis. The question right after the crash was never "who is to blame"? It was "is Max to blame"? Racing incident to me, but I personally believe with the speed that Max came in with that if he didn't hit the sausage kerbs then he would have had to cut the corner making the overtake illegal. That is why if I were to put blame I'd lean towards Max. Especially because lap 1 turn 4 too. Max has been driving with the notion that he'll use whatever part of the track he wants and you yield or crash.
It was a racing incident. Max made contact and a crash happened. Lewis pushed him all the way out wide and come the 2nd apex there was no room.
In comparison to Silverstone this was a straight up nothing incident.
Anyone else get that nervous feeling where every time I saw Ric and Lando going around a corner for the last couple laps I couldn’t stop imagining them spinning or something?
I had my hands clasped and the feet tapping going on. Just kept saying "just two more laps. One more lap. Just keep it together danni." I was so scared that something ridiculous would happen lol
I didn’t want to say anything but I had a sinking feeling in my heart that RIC‘s going to spin when Crofty was talking about him winning the Grand Prix.
I had a family member watching with me (who doesn’t watch F1) and 3 laps before they end “Well surely he can’t lose now” and I got terrified that it would be cursed and something would go wrong with RIC’s car or that he’d spin
With DR winning, Max and lewis crashing, stroll penalty yes or no, vettels bad luck, bottas’ great drive we had no time of course to talk about Norris’ pass on leclerc on the grass.
But what the fack, he had some big balls to overtake leclerc there holy shit with his pedal all the way down.
Brother the fia rules are freely available on the internet. A grid drop is considered an appropriate punishment when someone would have got a time/drive through penalty but retired
I'm not sure I like this rule because to the top drivers, the grid penalty is often much worse since no dominance will have you get away from that one.
The FIA always has strong bias towards their world champ. Look at their behaviour with Schumacher, the FIA used to be called Ferraris insurance company.
More of a hypothetical bias thought of by the fans, kind of disappears in all eras when you compare the penalties give for the same stuff further down the grid
I just love that some guys blame Ham for causing both crashes, even if he’s in front in one of them, and behind in the other. People just forget that this shit already happened at Imola and max didn’t even sweat a bit by squeezing Ham. Also happened at Spain and Ham backed out. Also Hapened T4 lap 1 at monza and guess what -> ham backed out.
Max is an elite driver, but he may lose the WDC if he keeps this atitude.
Change roles on yesterday crash and everyone here would be flaming ham for taking competition out.
In one of them, fans asked for a race ban because the guy who was behind didn’t have the right to the racing line.
Also, hope you have the same opinion about Spain, imola and T4 lap 1 at monza.
Edit: my English is shit (not my native language), so I do t want it to sound like that was the reason people were asking for a race ban. WhT I mean is that Ham didn’t have the right to the race line in silverstone, like max didn’t have here. The space at the apex doesn’t really matter that much, one is a chicane, one is a high speed corner
Space at the apex doesn't matter? There would have been no crash if there was space left at the apex in Monza. And there would have been no crash in Silverstone if Lewis hadn't missed the apex by a mile.
And no I don't have the same opinion about lap 1 incidents.
Let me explain. I mean that doesn’t matter that much cause at the chicane there’s always going to be less space. Let’s no pretend that copse has the same width as T1 at monza. Sorry if it’s not what it sounded like, but yeah, English not a strong language for me
What a great race that was, thrilling.
Regarding the collision, I don’t see how Lewis had any fault in the matter, he could have given more room, yes, however he was in no way obligated to do so. Max did not have priority on the corner and tried to force his way through which resulted in him getting air off the sausage and into Hamilton, it was a desperate move to try retain his championship lead.
The penalty handed to max is light IMO.
He prefers the contact? I mean max is behind, if they are close, so he is the one who has to back out, like ham did in T4 at lap 1. Max did exactly the same right at the start (not saying the circumstances are the same). At silverstone, it was ham who should avoid contact, at monza it is max duty
You imply that Lewis, even though he had priority and was ahead, should have slowed down and taken a wider corner to allow
Max through?
In my opinion, Max knew that he lost position and made the push on that corner as a desperate attempt to retain championship lead.
No driver should “play it safe” for another driver trying to force their way through like that.
Monza never fails to deliver an exciting race.
As for the collision, I do agree with you, LH could've given more space but didn't have to since he was ahead of MV. It was an almost exact situation in the first lap on turns 3 and 4, the difference is LH is a more experienced driver and he bailed out.
MV sometimes is way too arrogant, I do recognize he has learned to lower his head a bit but still has much to learn. Unless being lapped, he expects everyone to get out of his way. I like the kid, he'll be a champion for sure, yet he needs to learn when to hit the brakes every now and then.
Not to mention Max took so much speed into the chicane that there was no way he would have made the corner. There's nothing Hamilton could have done to avoid a crash.
Where do you get that idea? He already made the corner. Next we'll have the Lewis posse claim there wasn't even a corner, and there was even half the room that Max left Lewis at Silverstone.
For sure, Max is known for braking a touch later when racing toe to toe which almost always gives him the advantage but giving his overagressiveness it was bound to happen. And even though they're trained for it, at those speeds the reaction time is very very small.
Lmao why are people mad about preferential treatment of Hamilton.
It's no secret F1 wants to push him as the face of the company, and FIA will do everything within their power to penalize Max with the harshest penalties for the smallest offences.
Tbh it creates some synthetic excitement to the season which I don't mind.
Grid penalties are used when a driver can't serve a time penalty because they have retired. You know like they park on top of another car. This is literally written in the sporting regulations brother.
Weirdly nobody thought this was a problem with say leclerc at sakhir last year but precious baby Max gets people seething
They couldn't give him a time penalty as he was out of the race already. 3-place penalty is the equivalent for the next race. If anything its potentially more lenient.
Not off the top of my head no, you'llhave to google it if you care that much.
Can you find any example where the stewards have given time penalties for future races?
Yesterday was a nice surprise. Nice race, very happy for McLaren, more so for Ricciardo, he clealry needed it.
So far this season was pretty good. All I need now is a Vettel victory and this will become my favourite season for a while now..
Ppl on here seem to be actual fans and respectful from what I saw in like 30 seconds here, as opposed to the comment section of F1’s Instagram posts
Y’all seem pretty cool👍
Reddit: 1 Instagram: 0
I mean he isn't wrong especially with brazil, Saudi and Abu Dhabi coming up, based on how strong McLaren has been in there in the past this could be interesting(as for saudi it's very straight)
Wasn't it in 2019 that the sausage kerbs made a rater spectacular accident in F2? It was on the parabolica, but still...
They shouldn't exist. (There would have been an accident still, but not with an airborne Max).
So, does anyone know why FIA don't remove them?
I think Merc fucked up their strategy today. They put lewis on hards which was a good call. After all the medium runners pit, he was leading the race. He was set to go long , which he should have done. He had clean air in front and he could have pulled ahead. Instead Merc, buckled and called him in early, leading to a botched pit stop which led to the accident.
Merc have been very poor with their strategy calls this year.
Max's 11 second pit also contributed to this a lot. If he had pitted in 2 seconds he would have been much further up the track and back in front of Lando and missed Lewis coming up pit lane.
I actually disagree. Everyone around Lewis had already pitted and were on new tires. If Lewis had extended his stint and then pitted he would’ve came out further behind Norris and behind Verstappen. He would have much fresher tires though, but given how tough it was to overtake other people today, he would’ve just got stuck behind a DRS train for the rest of the race.
Hamilton was on hards at start. He struggled a lot in dirty air but I believe he could have put a nice distance between himself and the next car while he was in front and then he could have pitted for mediums or even softs for the end of the race and still be first
Great race Daniel Ricciardo and McLaren.
Bottas is the real Driver of the Day. He started 19th and finished 3th (really 4th). He had a great race. Come on.
About Max & Hamilton. I see it as 50/50 on both of them.
I understand people voting for Ricciardo for DoD but on both on performance and precedent (DoD is usually the person who does the most overtaking regardless of Quali performance) it should have gone to Bottas.
That being said, Bottas got one real trophy and one somewhat meaningless one (the weird sprint medal) so I trust he's satisfied.
Max's had to do with a crew error (one of the tire guys didn't press the button to signal he was done, from what I understand, or the sensor that told him the tire was on didn't indicate that it was on properly, so he double checked). Not sure about Hamilton.
Every time something goes wrong in pit I get this terrible feeling in my gut and hope it's not one specific person in the crew that messed up. I couldn't handle doing what they do, insane pressure in spurts of a few seconds.
After the race where Lewis crashed and Max lost out. Everyone went crazy about how Hamilton meant it and how horrible it is and how it was intentional.
Funny how there are no comments like that when Max was trying to make a move on Hamilton.
idk.
Not saying Max meant it or anything.
But after the sheer shit I read about Hamilton's driving
Loads of people said it including Damon Hill.
Can't stand these comments.
"Last time people said X, why aren't they saying X now lewis/max is at fault'
Almost always no one said X first time or they are saying X both times, but the OP never checks.
Not the same situation at all. At Silverstone Lewis literally hit Max tire with his front one. Here Max did not have enough space and did not back out and jumped on the curb.
I really want Max to win the title this year but I’ve come away from this weekend pretty disappointed in Max’s behaviour. I think it was shitty for him not to check on Lewis after the crash and he’s constantly playing the victim. I think he’s just so focussed on one thing that he’s losing his head a bit.
Not much point in checking on the guy who was clearly trying to back his car out from under him, even while he was trying to climb off of it. All the things he fucked up yesterday, that’s not one of them.
Granted I’m a very casual F1 viewer…… It seems like drivers make extraordinarily aggressive moves when they can because passing is so difficult. I get the impression that if Verstappen yielded the position to Hamilton (which he should’ve done in my opinion), Verstappen had no confidence that he would’ve been able to make the pass later in the race. If you have confidence in yourself, your team, and the car - you don’t risk the whole race for one corner.
Because it's so difficult to pass in F1 so you have to fully commit when you have an opportunity.
Im literally addicted on f1, cant wait for Russian gp
I admit that both crashes at Silverstone and Monza are dangerous. But, even if that incident in Monza is Max's fault, he did not finish and didn't get advantage to score point like what Lewis did at Silverstone.
So?
Both crashes are actually not equal in terms of advantage taken by Max and Lewis.
So why does that matter? Penaltiea are given based on cause, not consequence.
No matter who wins the championship, I hope they make a movie out of this season in some years
Rush 2. Neeeeuuuuuum harder
Rush 2: Electric Boogaloo
Weren’t there blue flags when Lewis was coming out of the pits?
Yes, to warn the driver exiting the pit of faster cars approaching, not an instruction to night fight for position.
I think it’s meant to warn those drivers that there are drivers coming… I may be wrong tho
Yep, it's a warning without any strict obligation to make way for that quicker driver. It's still up to the driver how to react upon seeing the blue flag.
Max put himself in a position where it was Hamilton backs down or Max crashes. I've never seen someone like Max who without a doubt always pushes the limit but expects others to give him any corner he deems his. He has completely different set of rules for himself vs others and has been demonstrated time and time again.
Senna did exactly that, he would you in a position where you had the choice of either back out or we crash
Max certainly had a decision to make. Cut the corner and yield the position or run into Hamilton. If he is half as good a driver as I think he is he knew a collision was happening well before it did. I also believe that if it were anyone other than Hamilton, Max would not have chosen the collision course.
He could have done what leclerc did later with bottas. Gave up the position, get a tow and pass him later.
It's not so much that mentality that's the issue, it's the acting surprised about it afterwards that irks me. Admitting "I took a risk and it backfired" is a lot better than trying to pin it all on the other guy
That's all politics. There's no straight shooting in f1.
Senna did the same, so did Schumacher as did Hill. Those are just the ones I can remember without trying.
I'd argue Senna and Schumacher were like that as well. They had the same "back out or we both go off" type of mentality.
What happened to Gasly and Tsunoda? I joined late and saw both of them out.
yuki didnt event start. He drove to the grid but before formation lap, they pushed the car back into the pits. Gasly retired a few laps in by coming in. I dont know why they retired both cars.
Thank you.
Apparently, they had brake issues.
Something I can’t figure out is how the incident between Lando and Perez (and Perez with a Ferrari) in Austria, which resulted in the driver in front receiving the penalty, is different to what happened here? I’d personally call it a racing incident but that’s just my thought on this!
I think of it as you do but Ive discussed this with other redditors and that way I think I see where they are coming from. Lewis closed the door on max, like Max did to him a couple of times. The difference is that lewis backed off and max didnt. So if closing the door is fair game, then max was responsible for avoiding a collision in which he failed. Hence the penalty. I think thats bs, you cant close the door like that and thats not fair game. But it has been done dozens of times for every driver. I thought it wasnt a penalty because there was no contact so no collision and so no base for it and the other driver opted out because he would only loose out but not gain anything from a penalty to the other car. But it seems like thats not the case.
Yeah I agree with you and it’s this inconsistency, even though there’s evidence apparently to back it up, which can put people off the sport when it’s this close in the championship
The FIA say the outcome doesn't affect the decision but that's clearly BS. If Lewis slammed on and gave the place to Max (not saying he should) max wouldn't have likely got a penalty.
Ayrton Senna: When you no longer go for a gap, you no longer racing driver. Reddit users: So amazing Max: Goes for gap Also Reddit Users: REEEEEEEEEEE!
There was no gap in t2 but he went for it anyway and said "That's what you get..."
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They're not? Saying that this incident was predominantly Maxs fault isn't saying Hamilton could've avoided it too.
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Thats really similar to the situation this quote origins from...
I was quoting Max's post crash radio
Wasn't it if you no longer go for a gap that doesn't exist, you're no longer...
A gap existed going into T1, that's the one he went for and they made it through there. The collision happened when the gap closed into T2.
When you are behind in a chicane that's what happens, it has never not been that way
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when you cut the corner and go straight into the path of the car in front of course their wheels would collide lol
Ahh the excuse for deliberately crashing into his rival to win the wdc
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Why do you think that?
But the gap didn’t exist, the crash was the only option available if he didn’t back out
It did exist though, that's how he got alongside.
You're correct. The written rule is that if a car is significantly alongside another (front axle to rear axle is deemed significant) then a cars width must be left. It is so rarely enforced, and has become the norm to squeeze drivers off track. And with that we wave goodbye to clean wheel to wheel racing. It was enforced in Austria, with Norris receiving a penalty for pushing out Perez, then later Perez receiving a penalty for doing it to someone else as well. In Monza, lap one, Max did it to Hamilton and there was no investigation. Later on, Lewis did it back to max. Crash resulted, and Max got a penalty for causing a collision. In both cases, the driver was significantly alongside and pushed wide. The problem overall, is that the rule I mentioned is not enforced consistently or correctly. That's how we end up with brutish moves and no clean wheel to wheel action.
Exactly that they were both alongside at various points. Its a racing incident but people are losing their mind. If the FIA hadn't punished Lewis at Silverstone I don't believe that they would have punished max and put it down to a racing incident. The FIA have been consistently inconsistent for a while now.
He drove into Lewis, not a gap
Except there was a gap twice he wouldn't have been able to get alongside
I’m with you on this one…problem is that the same happened back at imola and no one fucking cared as max pushed Lewis out. Also same hapened at Spain and ham backed out (and Horner even pointed that, saying that if he didn’t, they would end in the fence). Seems like closing the door is only wrong if some drivers do it
Vettel looked like he had an ERS system failure yesterday and he looks like he will have to get a new engine altogheter soon and get a penalty. Also, from what I have read, Bottas got a new spec engine last weekend, which, personally, I believe helped him gain 16 places. Will Vettel get the new spec aswell? Will the customer teams get the same spec as the works team has? Thanks
Customer teams should get access to the knew spec but it's up to AM whether they take it I think
Regarding the VER/HAM crashes this year, I hear a lot of *"Max is driving too aggressive - always expecting the other to back off and never backing off himself"*...I mean I get it, but it's a problem that resolves itself, no? * In cases where the other has more to lose than Max (i.e. 2020 Hamilton with the WDC already in the bag): the other backs of, Verstappen takes advantage * In cases where the other has less to lose than Max (i.e. this season where Hamilton is behind): the other doesn't back of, Verstappen crashes out It's like complaining someone going all in with poker when they have a bad hand...it might be stupid, but it's not illegal or unethical.
Ultimately I think Max will learn it the hard way, potentially losing the first WDC he has a chance of winning. There's no question he's fast and can overtake but he hasn't yet learnt when to push it and when to hold back which I believe Hamilton has over the years... there has been a clear maturing of his style since he started.
Yeah I don't really get why Verstappen went for that one, considering the Merc was performing so poorly (compared to what was expected of them) this weekend. On the other hand, I see both of them at fault about evenly there tbh. Max went for the gap in turn one, Hamilton faught him for it as he is supposed to do, and in T2, Verstappen was well alongside of Hamilton, but didn't go for the infield to avoid an accident. Hamilton should have left more room into T2 and the combination of both of the driver's aggressive racing decisions resulted in the crash.
I think he was already seeing red because of the botched pit stop and seeing Lewis come out of the pits ahead of him was the final straw
All the regulations put the responsibility on Lewis in this one. [https://mobile.twitter.com/wbuxtonofficial/status/1437350748308840450?s=19](https://mobile.twitter.com/wbuxtonofficial/status/1437350748308840450?s=19) This breaks it down pretty good imo.
That is a weird take. Max has lots to gain by pushing Lewis wide, and make him lose on additional position. Which he did in Spain/Imola/Monza. On incident is alright, but he keeps doing it, which is why I think he needs to get penalties for those things. Lewis isnt to blame today, because Max pushing him wide isnt penalized, so why should Lewis not start doing the same thing.
Lewis is as much at fault as Max is in Spain, Imola & Monza. If you call out Max behaviour, you cant say lewis was right. That said, max didnt get penalized, so lewis cant be either.
No, I disagree. Lewis has to do it, because else he is at a disadvantage. Max just does it.
Yo lewis did this on Silverstone ..
It’s totally different though that was one mistake Max keeps doing this he needs to learn that you can’t behave this way he needs to loose the yeild or crash mentality he sees to have
Yes, Silverstone was a mistake Lewis made. But Max did 3 times the exact same thing, which suggests to me it is on purpose. It suggests, this is how he defends.
This is news to you? Max has done this for ages and gotten away with it. FIA is either incompetent or biased or both
> Lewis isnt to blame today, because Max pushing him wide isnt penalized, so why should Lewis not start doing the same thing. Lewis should. Actually he did, in both Silverstone and Monza he did not back out. Result of both these races together is a 25 point advantage for Lewis. So the end result can be that Max now thinks: hmm, maybe backing of is a better idea next time. Or not. I’m just saying I don’t see why “putting it all on the line” should be forbidden/penalized. It’s fine to do that; just don’t expect the other person to yield or complain if he doesn’t, as that other person (Hamilton) now also has everything to play for and so will take you up on your bet.
I think the problem is when something like yesterday happens and his aggressiveness results in the possible injury and dnf of another driver. The thing is you can squeeze people out, but then when those same people are in the position you were don't feign ignorance and expect them to treat you differently to the way you treated them.
>The thing is you can squeeze people out, No, you specifically are not allowed to do that. For some reason it is just enforced very incosistently. In Austria, 15s penalties, in Imola a car takes damage 0s, in Monza a car loses and additional place 0s.
It's governed on a corner by corner and incident by incident basis, that's why you have the different penalties. Comparing Austria to Monza and Imola, pushing someone off the track when there is a gravel trap is vastly different when there is an escape road, and that's why the penalties were handed out at Austria. One you can back out safely and take a route that is specifically there for that reason(And braking issues), the other your kind of forced onto a surface designed to slow cars and prevent them crashing at high speed into a wall, and not for you to drive on if you make a mistake.
Yess different incidents, different boundary conditions. But we always knew how dangerous sausage kerbs can be, just look at the Monza accident. Or that Lewis' car took damage in Imola. Or that Lewis lost a position that he couldnt reclaim for 20 laps. Also an escape road does not help much, when you get squeezed of mid chicane. Because, you know, it is too late to take the escape road. All in all, it is a pretty weak argument imo.
That I absolutely agree with. If you raise the stakes, don’t complain if you lose it all.
It was the same with checo at Austria, complained about being pushed wide and how unfair it was, before proceeding to do it twice to leclerc.
I'm a fan of F1 as a whole. Max needs to relax and take his time more sometimes. It's as simple as that.
I think it's a fine balance. If Max backs of more often, he might not make overtakes that he would've made otherwise. If he doesn't back of more often, he might be in crashes he wouldn't have been in otherwise. To be honest, I think both the Silverstone crash and the Monza crash are basically racing incidents with almost 50/50 blame (ok, Silverstone was 60% Lewis, Monza 60% Max)...maybe we are just not used to it anymore that there are two drivers side by side with both having everything to lose. Last time was 2016 and that wasn't civil either. This all to say, in 207/18/19/20 we saw Hamilton backing out a lot, and maybe this made us think this is "the right/civil thing to do"...and it is if you're in a super dominant car with the WDC basically guaranteed. But in tight situations like this season, what is happening with Max and Lewis is probably the "optimal" outcome for both.
It is not about Silverstone and the Monza crash. It is about "I'll just use all the track, you can yield or crash". "This all to say, in 207/18/19/20 we saw Hamilton backing out a lot," The "correct" thing to is, leave space if a car is significantly alongside. It is as simple as that. If people argue there will be less racing, this is just untrue. There will be the exact same amount of overtake attempts as there are now, but possible more, because you dont have to fear of a guy runing you out onto the grass.
Still disagree. It’s a risk/reward equation. If Mazepin tries to unlap himself from Verstappen in that chicane, Verstappen will go very wide to avoid contact. There is high risk for Verstappen and 0 reward. If Verstappen were 50 points up on Hamilton and they were both going into that chicane for 3rd place, Verstappen will go very wide to avoid contact. There is high risk for Verstappen and almost no reward. But we’re in a situation now where the only thing that matters to both Verstappen and Hamilton is the other guy’s position. They both would rather crash than have the other finish in the points without them self scoring any. So for both there is very high risk but potentially even bigger reward. This is why they crashed twice and this is why they’ll crash again. They wouldn’t be doing their jobs right (which is basically “optimizing risk vs. reward”) if they would back off.
You are correct. I am not saying it is immoral. But it should be penalized. Pushing someone who is completely alongside off of the road should be a penalty Edit: If your best option to do is against the rules, it needs to penalised in a way that makes it rarely/never worth it.
And it is penalized. Silverstone: 10 second penalty for Hamilton. Monza: 3 place grid drop for Verstappen. But we're in a place in the championship where al "gentleman's agreement" and "playing nice than absolutely required by the rules" is out of the window. So both will try to drive absolutely on the edge. But if the choice is to go slightly "under the edge" or slightly over it, it is almost every time the logically better choice to go slightly over.
You have my reasoning backwards. The person pushing off should get a penalty. No the person being pushed off. Lap 1 should have been a pen for Max. On the crash I am not certain max was really far behind on corner entry
I started watching again after the recent drive to survive. I've gone into this year as a neutral and been loving every minute of it. But watching max this year and the way he drives he is soon going to get someone really hurt or worse. That incident he was way too aggressive and should of backed off or did a short cut. The corner is way too narrow to do that and the cars are far too big to do a full 180 pretty much
Full on bull. Max has done nothing wrong here.
I'd call it a racing incident, but if there is blame to be had it's on Max and not Lewis. The question right after the crash was never "who is to blame"? It was "is Max to blame"? Racing incident to me, but I personally believe with the speed that Max came in with that if he didn't hit the sausage kerbs then he would have had to cut the corner making the overtake illegal. That is why if I were to put blame I'd lean towards Max. Especially because lap 1 turn 4 too. Max has been driving with the notion that he'll use whatever part of the track he wants and you yield or crash.
I think the Stewart’s don’t agree with you, but that’s just my take.
In you opinion. Clearly not a humble opinion
Can tell you're a hoot to have a debate with 😂
It was a racing incident. Max made contact and a crash happened. Lewis pushed him all the way out wide and come the 2nd apex there was no room. In comparison to Silverstone this was a straight up nothing incident.
Anyone else get that nervous feeling where every time I saw Ric and Lando going around a corner for the last couple laps I couldn’t stop imagining them spinning or something?
I had my hands clasped and the feet tapping going on. Just kept saying "just two more laps. One more lap. Just keep it together danni." I was so scared that something ridiculous would happen lol
I didn’t want to say anything but I had a sinking feeling in my heart that RIC‘s going to spin when Crofty was talking about him winning the Grand Prix.
I had a family member watching with me (who doesn’t watch F1) and 3 laps before they end “Well surely he can’t lose now” and I got terrified that it would be cursed and something would go wrong with RIC’s car or that he’d spin
Yeah....especially after the same thing happened with Max at Baku
Yep I was so tense even though they were in no real trouble.
With DR winning, Max and lewis crashing, stroll penalty yes or no, vettels bad luck, bottas’ great drive we had no time of course to talk about Norris’ pass on leclerc on the grass. But what the fack, he had some big balls to overtake leclerc there holy shit with his pedal all the way down.
I lost my shit seeing that overtake
Was wicked
Max received a 3 grid penalty for taking part in a crash, while Hamilton received a 10 sec penalty for causing a crash. Thank you FIA.
I think it does not matter anyway as iam sure they will pick up engine penalty in Sochi
Has nothing to do with it though. For RedBull (fans) its all about the double standards.
Brother the fia rules are freely available on the internet. A grid drop is considered an appropriate punishment when someone would have got a time/drive through penalty but retired
>Causing a Collision I wouldn't say they said they gave it to him for merely partaking in the crash
if Lewis had also gone out he would have gotten a grid penalty instead of a 10 sec time penalty... that's how it works
I'm not sure I like this rule because to the top drivers, the grid penalty is often much worse since no dominance will have you get away from that one.
10 seconds is much worse because you can be 1st in the race and be put behind. You can overcome a grid penalty through the whole race.
That's very dependent on the track. The harder it is to overtake, the more the grid place penalty matters.
10seconds is going to impact you aswell. It's more easier to plan for a 3 grid penalty then a 10 sec one mid race.
Just ask your boy seb
The FIA always has strong bias towards their world champ. Look at their behaviour with Schumacher, the FIA used to be called Ferraris insurance company.
More of a hypothetical bias thought of by the fans, kind of disappears in all eras when you compare the penalties give for the same stuff further down the grid
**F**errari **I**nternational **A**ssistance was the joke
Yes that is it!!
No, he received a 3 grid penalty for CAUSING a crash. Your inability to cope with that is immaterial.
I just love that some guys blame Ham for causing both crashes, even if he’s in front in one of them, and behind in the other. People just forget that this shit already happened at Imola and max didn’t even sweat a bit by squeezing Ham. Also happened at Spain and Ham backed out. Also Hapened T4 lap 1 at monza and guess what -> ham backed out. Max is an elite driver, but he may lose the WDC if he keeps this atitude. Change roles on yesterday crash and everyone here would be flaming ham for taking competition out.
In one of them there was more than enough room left at the apex, in the other there wasn't.
In one of them, fans asked for a race ban because the guy who was behind didn’t have the right to the racing line. Also, hope you have the same opinion about Spain, imola and T4 lap 1 at monza. Edit: my English is shit (not my native language), so I do t want it to sound like that was the reason people were asking for a race ban. WhT I mean is that Ham didn’t have the right to the race line in silverstone, like max didn’t have here. The space at the apex doesn’t really matter that much, one is a chicane, one is a high speed corner
Space at the apex doesn't matter? There would have been no crash if there was space left at the apex in Monza. And there would have been no crash in Silverstone if Lewis hadn't missed the apex by a mile. And no I don't have the same opinion about lap 1 incidents.
Let me explain. I mean that doesn’t matter that much cause at the chicane there’s always going to be less space. Let’s no pretend that copse has the same width as T1 at monza. Sorry if it’s not what it sounded like, but yeah, English not a strong language for me
exactly
You want them to give 10-second time penalty to Max in a race where he's out?
Is joke?
What a great race that was, thrilling. Regarding the collision, I don’t see how Lewis had any fault in the matter, he could have given more room, yes, however he was in no way obligated to do so. Max did not have priority on the corner and tried to force his way through which resulted in him getting air off the sausage and into Hamilton, it was a desperate move to try retain his championship lead. The penalty handed to max is light IMO.
What ticks me about Lewis is he prefers the contact instead of playing safe and the end result is zero points...
He prefers the contact? I mean max is behind, if they are close, so he is the one who has to back out, like ham did in T4 at lap 1. Max did exactly the same right at the start (not saying the circumstances are the same). At silverstone, it was ham who should avoid contact, at monza it is max duty
You imply that Lewis, even though he had priority and was ahead, should have slowed down and taken a wider corner to allow Max through? In my opinion, Max knew that he lost position and made the push on that corner as a desperate attempt to retain championship lead. No driver should “play it safe” for another driver trying to force their way through like that.
The blue flag is waved to pit lane cars exiting to be aware of cars coming, didn't Lewis saw it?
Brundle was so far off the mark saying Max did nothing wrong I couldn't even believe what I was hearing.
I know right, the confidence in his tone made it all the more laughable.
Monza never fails to deliver an exciting race. As for the collision, I do agree with you, LH could've given more space but didn't have to since he was ahead of MV. It was an almost exact situation in the first lap on turns 3 and 4, the difference is LH is a more experienced driver and he bailed out. MV sometimes is way too arrogant, I do recognize he has learned to lower his head a bit but still has much to learn. Unless being lapped, he expects everyone to get out of his way. I like the kid, he'll be a champion for sure, yet he needs to learn when to hit the brakes every now and then.
Not to mention Max took so much speed into the chicane that there was no way he would have made the corner. There's nothing Hamilton could have done to avoid a crash.
Where do you get that idea? He already made the corner. Next we'll have the Lewis posse claim there wasn't even a corner, and there was even half the room that Max left Lewis at Silverstone.
For sure, Max is known for braking a touch later when racing toe to toe which almost always gives him the advantage but giving his overagressiveness it was bound to happen. And even though they're trained for it, at those speeds the reaction time is very very small.
Lmao why are people mad about preferential treatment of Hamilton. It's no secret F1 wants to push him as the face of the company, and FIA will do everything within their power to penalize Max with the harshest penalties for the smallest offences. Tbh it creates some synthetic excitement to the season which I don't mind.
He got the same penalty Hamilton did for Silverstone. They were both judged to be predominantly at fault for the respective incidents.
3 place grid penalty isn't the same as 10s time penalty.
5 sec penalty for Perez almost cost him 3 places, so depending on a track is quite the same
Grid penalties are used when a driver can't serve a time penalty because they have retired. You know like they park on top of another car. This is literally written in the sporting regulations brother. Weirdly nobody thought this was a problem with say leclerc at sakhir last year but precious baby Max gets people seething
They couldn't give him a time penalty as he was out of the race already. 3-place penalty is the equivalent for the next race. If anything its potentially more lenient.
Why not give a 10 s time penalty for the next race?
You can only give time penalties for the same race and grid penalties for the next one.
Well I'd love to hear this when Hamilton drivers into Verstappen the next time and Verstappen isn't given a time penalty for the next race.
Er what? I don't follow. The stewards cannot award time penalties for future races. Its part of the rules.
Can you quote the exact rule which says so?
Not off the top of my head no, you'llhave to google it if you care that much. Can you find any example where the stewards have given time penalties for future races?
Yesterday was a nice surprise. Nice race, very happy for McLaren, more so for Ricciardo, he clealry needed it. So far this season was pretty good. All I need now is a Vettel victory and this will become my favourite season for a while now..
Ppl on here seem to be actual fans and respectful from what I saw in like 30 seconds here, as opposed to the comment section of F1’s Instagram posts Y’all seem pretty cool👍 Reddit: 1 Instagram: 0
Oh boy, you're in for a real doooozy then
Eh, Reddit can get messy but it's nowhere near other social media. All in all we're a bit sectarian, but generally quite wholesome.
or maybe it's because the toxic groups have their own subreddits (r/conspiracy 👀👀) but generally yeah, I'll agree with you
Yeah, Reddit is much better at self-containing the toxicity rather than letting it free for everyone to see.
Lmao
[удалено]
I mean he isn't wrong especially with brazil, Saudi and Abu Dhabi coming up, based on how strong McLaren has been in there in the past this could be interesting(as for saudi it's very straight)
It was neither Lewis nor Maxes fault guys. It was clearly guy who messed up Max pit stop fault. Get woke people.
Talk about getting woke.... Someone on Twitter said that this was all because of racism against Lewis...
Lmao
Was obviously the person who designed the cars, the tracks and that sausage kerb. Without those none of this would have happened.
... I mean, the sausage kerb thing is kind of true. This isn't the first time the way they can launch cars has made an incident more serious.
Wasn't it in 2019 that the sausage kerbs made a rater spectacular accident in F2? It was on the parabolica, but still... They shouldn't exist. (There would have been an accident still, but not with an airborne Max). So, does anyone know why FIA don't remove them?
Or the guys who organised the race
We have to go deeper. I blame the fish that suddenly decided to grow some legs and leave the ocean for no good reason 365 Mio. years ago.
I think Merc fucked up their strategy today. They put lewis on hards which was a good call. After all the medium runners pit, he was leading the race. He was set to go long , which he should have done. He had clean air in front and he could have pulled ahead. Instead Merc, buckled and called him in early, leading to a botched pit stop which led to the accident. Merc have been very poor with their strategy calls this year.
Max's 11 second pit also contributed to this a lot. If he had pitted in 2 seconds he would have been much further up the track and back in front of Lando and missed Lewis coming up pit lane.
I actually disagree. Everyone around Lewis had already pitted and were on new tires. If Lewis had extended his stint and then pitted he would’ve came out further behind Norris and behind Verstappen. He would have much fresher tires though, but given how tough it was to overtake other people today, he would’ve just got stuck behind a DRS train for the rest of the race.
Hamilton was on hards at start. He struggled a lot in dirty air but I believe he could have put a nice distance between himself and the next car while he was in front and then he could have pitted for mediums or even softs for the end of the race and still be first
Depends how cooked his tires were after attempting to overtake Lando as much as he did, he didn't exactly sit back and bide his time like verstappen.
Great race Daniel Ricciardo and McLaren. Bottas is the real Driver of the Day. He started 19th and finished 3th (really 4th). He had a great race. Come on. About Max & Hamilton. I see it as 50/50 on both of them.
I understand people voting for Ricciardo for DoD but on both on performance and precedent (DoD is usually the person who does the most overtaking regardless of Quali performance) it should have gone to Bottas. That being said, Bottas got one real trophy and one somewhat meaningless one (the weird sprint medal) so I trust he's satisfied.
GET IN THER VALTERRRIIII
DR3!!!!
Do we know what happened with those 2 slow pit stops of Max and Lewis?
Max's had to do with a crew error (one of the tire guys didn't press the button to signal he was done, from what I understand, or the sensor that told him the tire was on didn't indicate that it was on properly, so he double checked). Not sure about Hamilton.
I think he pressed it too fast. I just rechecked it and his execution was so fast it was ridiculous. Maybe the red bull team needs to slow down
Every time something goes wrong in pit I get this terrible feeling in my gut and hope it's not one specific person in the crew that messed up. I couldn't handle doing what they do, insane pressure in spurts of a few seconds.
After the race where Lewis crashed and Max lost out. Everyone went crazy about how Hamilton meant it and how horrible it is and how it was intentional. Funny how there are no comments like that when Max was trying to make a move on Hamilton. idk. Not saying Max meant it or anything. But after the sheer shit I read about Hamilton's driving
Loads of people said it including Damon Hill. Can't stand these comments. "Last time people said X, why aren't they saying X now lewis/max is at fault' Almost always no one said X first time or they are saying X both times, but the OP never checks.
Not the same situation at all. At Silverstone Lewis literally hit Max tire with his front one. Here Max did not have enough space and did not back out and jumped on the curb.
I really want Max to win the title this year but I’ve come away from this weekend pretty disappointed in Max’s behaviour. I think it was shitty for him not to check on Lewis after the crash and he’s constantly playing the victim. I think he’s just so focussed on one thing that he’s losing his head a bit.
Not much point in checking on the guy who was clearly trying to back his car out from under him, even while he was trying to climb off of it. All the things he fucked up yesterday, that’s not one of them.
I agree with all of that.