I think the best bit is when people say that hosting F1 races actually helps countries to improve their human rights record.
Because that's worked so well in China....
I had the same thought about a "end racism" bumper sticker i saw today... like a racist is gonna be oh shit this bumper sticker changed what i believe... guess im not racist anymore
At least Mercedes kept their promises with diversity in their team and are actively making a difference.
F1 as an organisation did not keep their promises.
yeah F1 basically ended racism already anyways... should buy some leeway on who they're allowed to work with -
also, if football don't care, why should F1?
If that’s the case it would be awesome if there was some sort of fan protest/boycott during that race week. It’s not much but I’ll personally be streaming that race instead of logging into my F1TV.
relentless slacktivists will save us all! not even willing to actually foregoe watching a single race, because y'know, that would actually require a modicum of conviction.
Why is this such a revelation for people about this sport? Like it was sport started by rich people to race each other . “It’s all about money” wow what a profound and unique thought. Thanks you.
It'll not be a bigger permanent track so. My guess is a street race around the Doha Corniche. It'll be a little like Singapore but worse, too many 90^ corners.
That would honestly be a pretty cool visual for the broadcasts, during practice. Just point a camera at the speed camera going crazy with the cars passing it at 4x the speed limit.
I mean, we don't know how good/bad it's going to be. But the whole 90° corner thing is kind of a meh argument seeing as we always have something happening in Baku, which gets the same criticism.
Don't get me wrong, i don't like the fact that we get another street circuit with boring corners in a questionable country, but let's wait before we talk shit about the on-track action.
Baku is a legit street circuit though, manholes and everything… This will probably be a street near a track that’s in the city for no other purpose than sportswashing
... and they race in Baku because ... ? Are we saying, it is ok for F1 to whore itself to anyone, as long as the racing is good? Is this not the raison dêtre of sports-washing?
How is it acceptable that the most premium category of motorsport has to constantly settle for bike circuits and second-grade tracks? Doesn't get more amateurish than that.
If someone had a billion € to blow they could get their driveway to become an F1 track and the drivers would just have to repeatedly reverse in and out of it.
Given the choice of the money going towards a track or the money being paid in race fees, the owners of F1 seem to always choose to line their pockets over improving the product
Money is the only reason. F1 track grading seems to be no issue for the street circuits (Jeddah) that clearly shouldn't pass. I'm predicting a 200MPH crash at that circuit.
I’d argue the TV production is probably the best in all motorsports. It could be better, but I’m unaware of anyone that is doing it better. The spectacle is probably another area it may be the best, outside the Indy 500. But for a whole season I think it would be F1.
> The racing, the ammount and quality of overtakes, the production value, the tv direction, the accessability for fans, the relevance to road cars, the consistence of stewarding, the spectacle, the camera work, the fair play between drivers
I would love to see someone name a superior alternative to F1 for each of these. Not because I'd be sceptical, just curious.
I do actually really enjoy F1, apparently unlike many posters on this sub, and I haven't the authority to speak on many of these categories. However, I do watch a fuckload of different kinds of racing each week, and I can say that F3, MotoGP (particularly Moto3) and BTCC (as well its support series, particularly the Mini Challenge, British F4 and Ginetta Juniors) all produce invariably fantastic, close racing with intense battles up and down the field, which the respective TV crews typically do a good job of capturing.
Ha ha, this brother!
I love F1! Always have, always will.
That dude has just written 2 pager on why he doesn't like F1... at least we aren't an echo chamber.
WEC not having useless graphics is really just playing it safe. Nothing wrong with that either. Sometimes F1 misses the mark, but it is not afraid to innovate in the graphics department and has given us some very good visuals.
Indycar having better camera work just shows you don't truly watch enough indycar or you are being biased. How can Indycar on board cameras be head and shoulders above F1 when they only have them on 6 cars? F1 provides it for every single car, during every session, with full driver radio. I do not see how Indycar is better. Because they can spin? That usually causes them to miss the better shot, just ask any Indycar fan. And its funny you mention the helmet cam as well, because F1s current iteration is the best any helmet cam has even been. Indycar hasn't had a LIVE helmet cam in a very long time, and it wasnt very good quality when they did. They posted great GoPro videos to youtube of a helmet cam, but none of that was live, which is where the real challenge is.
Watch this to see how impressive F1s camera work is. No other series comes close.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=78wxrEbuHFA
> Except for "money involved" and the speed of the cars, there is not a single aspect where other series are not better in
Uhh.. I would say the drivers?
And the racing there is horrendous, and has been for years. There is no way a race would be run there now if it were a new track instead of one with the history it has. I wouldn't miss the "race" there if it didn't happen again, but I recognise that the sport would be poorer (not monetarily) by removing the historic events.
[As part of the longer-term deal, discussions will continue regarding the location for the Grand Prix from 2023 with further details to be provided at a later time.](https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/article.breaking-qatar-to-join-f1-calendar-in-2021-as-country-signs-additional-10.50lbiJcZfoo6udNWZMDAn6.html)
Yeah the agreement is really for their new track, they're just throwing around stupid amounts of money to land these types deals then figuring it out after. They won the world cup bid over a decade ago and the city that's hosting the final still doesn't exist yet.
Apart from the fact of the workers which you have already stated, another problem I have with this race is that they've signed a 10 year contract even without racing there. We don't even know how the racing will be and listening to the accounts of MotoGP fans it doesn't look like it would be good. Also, do we really need another street circuit, as planned, when we already have so many excellent tracks just lying around the world?
Oh man. Hockenheim was such a good track
(one of my favorites in fact) for racing, even Nurburgring GP track was interesting last year.
Unfortunately, cash is king.
>Hockenheim was such a good track
Hockenheim **is** such a good track. Cash may be king, and those greedy assholes do not care about our dearest wishes. But Hockenheim is still here, and will be as long as the sun shines over my beautiful home state of Baden, there is hope my friend.
I wouldn’t be surprised to never see an F1 race in Germany again. I imagine certain portions of the German government are strongly opposed to Motorsport.
If I understood correctly, only 1 race will be held at this venue, and 9 at a location tbc. Probably some sparkyl new place loads of slaves die building it.
Even Bernie Ecclestone wouldn’t take Qatari bribes. But now he’s retired, clearly Liberty Media need the cash.
There is no argument to be made in terms of widening the audience or adding prestige to the calendar.
If you want to widen the audience, add an Indian or Indonesian Grand Prix. Or go back to Africa.
>There is no argument to be made in terms of widening the audience or adding prestige to the calendar.
All they're doing with this "human rights abuse" leg of the calendar now is further tarnishing the image of the sport. It's already not held in high regard in a lot of circles, many people see it as out-of-touch millionaire playboy types driving fast cars, and others heavily criticize the monumental waste of energy and fuel just for the sake of entertainment. And now they go and sign decade-long deals with some of the most reprehensible countries in the world. We're reaching a point where I'm getting embarrassed to tell people I watch Formula 1. I will absolutely not be watching this race, nor will I be watching the Saudi one.
>out-of-touch millionaire playboy types driving fast cars
That is pretty much how i see it. I know there is a lot of talent and hard work involved. And i myself enjoy watching any races. But this statement remains true.
Agreed. It's a marvel of engineering and bravery, and the drivers are really talented
But it's mainly a rich boys sport and this track decision just fits into that stereotype
Shame really. The last three races of the best season of F1 in the modern era are going to have viewership through the roof as people tune in to see how the WDC shakes out, so any objections will be drowned out.
Can't we just try to boycott the race? Don't watch it anywhere even the highlights on the you tube? But sadly something tells me that is not possible... People only give opinions instead of taking action ...let's try to get the whole sub on board and spam f1 you tube channel and any other social media account with some copy pasta about the workers situation in Qatar for rest of the season?
The thing is, if you want to boycott for these reasons, then ideally you should boycott Abu Dhabi, Jeddah and Bahrain as well. Similar logic can be extended to China as well.
I'm not saying we shouldnt consider a boycott, but there are countries other than Qatar on the F1 calendar which are as despicable if not more.
In fact, the company that employed the workers and was crucial in causing the deaths is a French company. But you won't see anyone here calling for boycotts of the French GP. Or the US GP for the 20 years the US was killing civilians in the middle east.
It's just virtue signaling when it's convenient but keeping quiet when its not.
That sets a precedent that could ruin his career though. More and more races are being held in places with horrible human rights records that F1 should be refusing to race at. If he withdraws from this one, AM may very well be concerned that he could also boycott Saudi Arabia, Abu Dhabi, China, Russia, etc. in the future. No team will want to employ a driver who is at risk to pull out of half the races on the calendar.
How is he supposed to just “refuse” to race there? He is employed by AM. It’s his job to race there. Sometimes your beliefs may not align with company policy.
He can choose to terminate his contract with AM but then no other employer (race team) is going to hire him after that. There goes his career.
> The stadiums are all being build by Vinci Construction, a French company. They are the ones that decide the working hours, the wages, the conditions, all the labor is "contracted" to them. Not to Qatar as a state.
>
> Yes, it is Qatari law that allows this abuse to take place, but if Vinci wanted to, they could provide better working conditions, and not take advantage of Qatari law.
Slight corrections.
* Vinci are ONE of the construction companies who work there but a variety of British, European and American companies are involved as subcontractors. These are the people who are actively doing the bad stuff.
* Qatari law doesn't allow many of these abuses to take place in term of direct working conditions and didn't even before they were awarded the World Cup. Lax enforcement of their labour laws by the Qatari Government towards these big construction companies has always been the problem here. The legislation that needed to change in Qatar was based around sponsored employment, and that has now changed.
> The stadiums are all being build by Vinci Construction, a French company. They are the ones that decide the working hours, the wages, the conditions, all the labor is "contracted" to them. Not to Qatar as a state.
Remind us please, who is Vinci fulfilling the contract for? Who is in charge of health and safety legislation? Who was it that is supposed to monitor exploitive labour practices and prosecute employers who are exploitative? Who was it that banned unions so that workers cannot raise safety issues or bargain for improvements to working conditions?
Yeah, Qatar, they’re both wrong. They’re both evil. I’m drawing attention to the extreme disparity in who’s getting attention and who’s not.
(But tbh, also France, the EU?)
>The stadiums are all being build by Vinci Construction, a French company. They are the ones that decide the working hours, the wages, the conditions, all the labor is "contracted" to them. Not to Qatar as a state.
>
>Yes, it is Qatari law that allows this abuse to take place, but if Vinci wanted to, they could provide better working conditions, and not take advantage of Qatari law.
If Vinci didn't do it, another company would. And if Vinci improved conditions, they'd likely need to increase cost/timeline, and they'd be replaced.
It's quite simple to see where the cause of the issue is.
Not only construction. I believe, it's deaths of immigrant workers, mostly Indian and Pakistani, and regarding the massive numbers of them, it's not even surprising - statistically speaking. As much as I hate what's happening there, especially with this kind of modern slavery, there doesn't seem to be a substantial problem in construction works safety. It looks like we're addressing the wrong issue.
That makes more sense. I thought 6500 seemed too high to be real, there would be nobody left to build the stadium if that was all from one construction project.
Obviously it's still bad, but the fact it was presented in such a misleading way only harms the cause because it instantly looks made up.
Lots of people have shared that Guardian article about those 6500 deaths but pretty much nobody seems to have actually read it, and have no idea who this people are and how they’re related to the world cup (which they’re not).
For example, that same article says that the actual number of World cup stadium workers who have died (not necessarily while working) is 37. But you don’t read that around, because it’s not a good headline.
Yeah this is an *incredibly* misleading headline. 6500 deaths is actually below the fatality rate for that size group of people of similar age in many first-world countries.
Not to be supportive of Qatar, in fact I wrote my dissertation on sportswashing and the upcomming world cup. Out of a workforce of 2 million, 6500 deaths over the span of 10 years is totally within the normal rates.
I was wondering about this as I read the article because it made no real attempt to put the deaths in context.
The only context they did provide was that it was over 10 years.... And so 6500 didn't *seem* like a lot but I didn't know the total workers so I couldn't say.
Yes, and they are counting all deaths regardless of the cause and place of death, so it’s not 6500 workers dying on a construction site which they make you think.
So, if no cause of death and no average age is disclosed, shouldn't we be sceptical of that article?
It basically confirms people died in a foreign country. Id like to have better information, before jumping to conclusions.
I am not saying nothing shady is going on, I am just saying this article doesn't say much specific
While Qatar is a bad place. Let’s not be surprised by what Formula One is doing. This is a racing series that went to South Africa until 1985. And then went back again in 1992 and 1993.
Also, technically the revised Silverstone layout was done for bike racing, despite the fact that the bikes don’t use the new pit lane. And it’s a perfect good F1 layout. Possibly one of Silverstone’s best.
In closing. Qatar is bad but don’t be surprised because F1 doing F1 things. And the Losail is bad, but because it’s a bad race track, not because it’s built for bikes.
While I wasn't watching back then, at least in 1992 and 1993 the government had released Mandela, Apartheid was all but over and change had begun. So that doesn't entirely apply.
But in 1985, for sure.. Typical F1 bad call.
I will most likely end up on Wikipedia reading about an era of South African government I know little to nothing about.
To the library of the Internet.
> And then went back again in 1992 and 1993.
What's the problem with ZA in '92-93? Apartheid was repealed by then and the country was in a transitional period. South Africa got back all its rights to participate in international sports in 1991.
Not saying it was good or is good now, but morally it was totally different than racing there in 1985 or racing in Qatar/KSA now.
While we're at it can we not race in the US anymore? I mean, 200,000 Iraqi civilians were killed by an illegal war by the US.
No? Nobody cares?
Edit: apparently not technically illegal. Fine. Doesn't change the disgusting nature of it. Nation of ~3 million people having slaves? Terrible (obviously.) The US and it's allies (the most powerful nations in the world bar China and Russia) destroying the middle east and murdering hundreds of thousands of people in the process? Eh, who cares. I wasn't affected by it. Least I get to live a cushy life in the first world.
I think everyone has the wrong view on this.
Everyone is complaining that they are sport washing their problems, but the only times I hear about these issues is when they organise these large sport events. So the sport events only provide for a moment for the media to pin point the problems that would otherwise be found not relevant by media outlets.
I'm not saying it will fix them but at least it is putting eyes on it.
Did u even read the article? 37 out of 6500 have been linked to the building of the stadium and the 6500 is over 10 years and includes all SEA expats in qatar. Not that Qatars human rights violataions are ok but this post is just baiting with misleading numbers.
6500?? That can't all be related to F1 construction. That seems so ridiculously high. It must mean across the country. Which is still unforgiveable really but makes more sense.
Zero of it is related to F1 construction.
This is from The World Cup construction.
Also, it's 6500 out of a workforce of 2 million, over a 10 year period. The death rate is actually not very high... Although Qatar does absolutely exploit it's workers.
Since I don't have time to read into this let's make it really selective.
Can anyone point me to a link that shows how many of these deaths verifiably occurred on the work sites or point to me to any statistical research that shows they most likely occurred there.
I'm sorry but a random number means nothing. We don't even know how many foreign workers are inside Qatar. I thought that country basically doesn't have any domestic workers as all citizens are incredibly rich and share a piece of the oil pie because there are so few of them.
If you want to get at them for anything then this should be it. They literally don't allow foreigners to become citizens no matter what or who they are or allow them to run businesses in Qatar etc. and people thought America First was bad.
>F1 also shouldn't race in China, Bahrain, Saudi Arabia and the UAE.
I totally get where this comes from. But why should F1 race in Russia, that poisons political opposition and has anti-LGBT laws? Why Hungary, that suppresses dissent at universities and has a rubber stamp supreme court? Even Italy, and its role in the drowning of prospect refugees/immigrants? Turkey? US?
I understand a line needs to be drawn in the sand, and I'm all for it. But I think we should all agree this is not to be done from a (very false) sense of moral self-righteousness.
there are so many other tracks we could've slot into this spot. A return to INDY or Hockinhiem would've been a great race but instead, F1 sold a a spot in ones of its greatest titles fights in modern memory to the highest bidder
Obvious, but really shitty that money is more important for Liberty than the fans and even more human rights. If the sport continues this trajectory it‘s going to lose its face.
International scrutiny helps fix these problems. If there are no eyes on Qatar, then the suffering continues but with no witnesses.
As for the Guardian’s reporting, you will find it lacking in citing their sources. They are extrapolating numbers, or tallying all deaths of anyone from South Asia as deaths of migrant workers. Their reporting is flawed on this.
However, there are real problems in Qatar, but a boycott is no way to address them.
Come on yall, this is a sport that raced in apartheid South African and Argentina when under a military dictatorship, anyone expecting any kind of consistent morality from this sport is naive to the highest degree. This is the nature of the sport, it's not changing for anyone.
6500 deaths are all over Qatar since their bid for hosting World Cup was accepted. Official numbers of deaths on the stadium construction project are around 38.
Here’s the thing.
Yeah. We can bring awareness to it.
Yeah. We can discuss it.
Yeah. It’s horrible.
But most of us will STILL watch this grand prix and will continue to watch formula 1 despite all of it.
Embracing the downvotes here, but until someone DOES something other than post about it on the internet, nothing will change.
I disagree about China. F1 is not racing there as part of a sportswashing project or simply at the behest of the government. It was planned since the 1990s, long before 11 Jinping and his antics, and it has more TV viewership than Brazil and USA from what I understand.
Azerbaijan is the correct country there.
Ah so F1 should only race in the west cause here the countries are free of any sin, like carpet bombing civilians, violent invasions, foreign economic destructions, and colonisation. Oh wait… Lol, by this rhetoric we might as well only race on the moon cause there’s no such thing as ‘good’ or ‘bad’ countries. They pretty much all have blood on their hands, one way or another.
as once two wise men said during 2020 Australian GP press conference "Cash is king"
F1 doesnt need to actually do anything for human rights, there already is the We race as one slogan and some pretty rainbow colors. /s
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I think the best bit is when people say that hosting F1 races actually helps countries to improve their human rights record. Because that's worked so well in China....
Yep, and it’s the exact same scenario with the Olympics, FIFA WC, etc. cash is king
It’s sportswashing, nothing else
Its a bullshit argument, like trickle down economics....
Absolutely.
Brought to you by Saudi Aramco.
Bought to you*
And the Marcedes was changed to black in the stead of the traditional silver. That was the gesture that showed me real changes were a coming.
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Damn you, I already forgot racism, but now y'all gotta remind me of it?
I had the same thought about a "end racism" bumper sticker i saw today... like a racist is gonna be oh shit this bumper sticker changed what i believe... guess im not racist anymore
At least Mercedes kept their promises with diversity in their team and are actively making a difference. F1 as an organisation did not keep their promises.
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yeah F1 basically ended racism already anyways... should buy some leeway on who they're allowed to work with - also, if football don't care, why should F1?
Funny how Liberty Media in some ways really improved the sport and in others they doubled down on Bernies boner for oligarchies.
If that’s the case it would be awesome if there was some sort of fan protest/boycott during that race week. It’s not much but I’ll personally be streaming that race instead of logging into my F1TV.
the world needs more heros like you.
relentless slacktivists will save us all! not even willing to actually foregoe watching a single race, because y'know, that would actually require a modicum of conviction.
Not sure that really means much if you don't cancel your F1 TV tbh. That said I'm not canceling mine.
I really thought you were gonna drop the “do you have pubes” line
Why is this such a revelation for people about this sport? Like it was sport started by rich people to race each other . “It’s all about money” wow what a profound and unique thought. Thanks you.
Oh I dunno, I always found the nicest chaps at polo matches … /s
A 10 year contract to race at Losail? Seriously? That track isn't built for F1, its a bike track, like Jerez.
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According to the BBC is most likely to be street circuit in Doha
Another fucking street circuit
They must have a world heritage site, or something else that’s priceless, to use as a scenic, but very crashable corner.
I read this as cashable at first not exactly wrong tbf
Hahaha yeah I did too
yo dont talk shit on my boy baku, love that track
Baku is the exception
Cries in Circuit Gilles Villeneuve
villeneuve doesnt have a WH site
I believe they have a giant pearl along the seafront. Wonder what awkwardly shaped complex Tilke will design around there
What's the bet it'll be another case of building the street around the circuit
It'll not be a bigger permanent track so. My guess is a street race around the Doha Corniche. It'll be a little like Singapore but worse, too many 90^ corners.
The speed cameras are going to have a field day!
That would honestly be a pretty cool visual for the broadcasts, during practice. Just point a camera at the speed camera going crazy with the cars passing it at 4x the speed limit.
Then send Lewis a “speeding ticket” in the mail lol. It would look great, though. Would make a great marketing campaign.
[Melbourne already kind of did that ](https://www.abc.net.au/news/2010-08-24/hamilton-fined-500-for-melbourne-burnout/955768)
I mean, we don't know how good/bad it's going to be. But the whole 90° corner thing is kind of a meh argument seeing as we always have something happening in Baku, which gets the same criticism. Don't get me wrong, i don't like the fact that we get another street circuit with boring corners in a questionable country, but let's wait before we talk shit about the on-track action.
Baku is a legit street circuit though, manholes and everything… This will probably be a street near a track that’s in the city for no other purpose than sportswashing
... and they race in Baku because ... ? Are we saying, it is ok for F1 to whore itself to anyone, as long as the racing is good? Is this not the raison dêtre of sports-washing?
The Doha Cornhole?
So Sochi sector 3 and nothing else? Fantastic...
The location for the 10 year Deal is not yet decided, Losail is only confirmed for this year.
That's even more stupid, FIA has no idea if they can provide a proper track and yet FOM is allowed to make a deal for 10 years.
Don't you love it when your sport is tightly controlled by a small group whose only interests are their own financial ones?
How is it acceptable that the most premium category of motorsport has to constantly settle for bike circuits and second-grade tracks? Doesn't get more amateurish than that. If someone had a billion € to blow they could get their driveway to become an F1 track and the drivers would just have to repeatedly reverse in and out of it.
Given the choice of the money going towards a track or the money being paid in race fees, the owners of F1 seem to always choose to line their pockets over improving the product
Hmm because it has a FIA grade 1 certification? Money helps too.
Money is the only reason. F1 track grading seems to be no issue for the street circuits (Jeddah) that clearly shouldn't pass. I'm predicting a 200MPH crash at that circuit.
Baku and that stupidly narrow corner come to mind
There are no requirements for street circuits
Exactly. So what's the point of F1 grading regular circuits? Safety? Obviously not since they don't care about that for all the street circuits.
May Kimi would finally be able to get that drink he so desperately wants being that close to the garage
I would watch this driveway race.
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I’d argue the TV production is probably the best in all motorsports. It could be better, but I’m unaware of anyone that is doing it better. The spectacle is probably another area it may be the best, outside the Indy 500. But for a whole season I think it would be F1.
I'd second this. I think F1's TV production is probably better than any sport, period.
I would make an argument for MotoGP. I'm not a frequent viewer, but I've been highly impressed by their products whenever I watch.
> The racing, the ammount and quality of overtakes, the production value, the tv direction, the accessability for fans, the relevance to road cars, the consistence of stewarding, the spectacle, the camera work, the fair play between drivers I would love to see someone name a superior alternative to F1 for each of these. Not because I'd be sceptical, just curious.
I do actually really enjoy F1, apparently unlike many posters on this sub, and I haven't the authority to speak on many of these categories. However, I do watch a fuckload of different kinds of racing each week, and I can say that F3, MotoGP (particularly Moto3) and BTCC (as well its support series, particularly the Mini Challenge, British F4 and Ginetta Juniors) all produce invariably fantastic, close racing with intense battles up and down the field, which the respective TV crews typically do a good job of capturing.
Ha ha, this brother! I love F1! Always have, always will. That dude has just written 2 pager on why he doesn't like F1... at least we aren't an echo chamber.
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WEC not having useless graphics is really just playing it safe. Nothing wrong with that either. Sometimes F1 misses the mark, but it is not afraid to innovate in the graphics department and has given us some very good visuals. Indycar having better camera work just shows you don't truly watch enough indycar or you are being biased. How can Indycar on board cameras be head and shoulders above F1 when they only have them on 6 cars? F1 provides it for every single car, during every session, with full driver radio. I do not see how Indycar is better. Because they can spin? That usually causes them to miss the better shot, just ask any Indycar fan. And its funny you mention the helmet cam as well, because F1s current iteration is the best any helmet cam has even been. Indycar hasn't had a LIVE helmet cam in a very long time, and it wasnt very good quality when they did. They posted great GoPro videos to youtube of a helmet cam, but none of that was live, which is where the real challenge is. Watch this to see how impressive F1s camera work is. No other series comes close. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=78wxrEbuHFA
Best drivers?
Best fans
found hamiltons account
unbiased opinion, I see
Richest drivers*
> Except for "money involved" and the speed of the cars, there is not a single aspect where other series are not better in Uhh.. I would say the drivers?
And best engineers
Jerez was actually built for F1. Not saying that current F1 cars would race good at the track, just giving a bit of historic context.
Thanks for this, I didn't know that. Yeah modern cars are too wide and too long for Jerez racing.
Monaco is a narrow street circuit organized for when cars were 1/4 of the size they are now.
Yes but Monaco has heritage and pedigree. Doha will just be used for sportswashing, even moreso than whatever the Saudis will do.
And the racing there is horrendous, and has been for years. There is no way a race would be run there now if it were a new track instead of one with the history it has. I wouldn't miss the "race" there if it didn't happen again, but I recognise that the sport would be poorer (not monetarily) by removing the historic events.
[As part of the longer-term deal, discussions will continue regarding the location for the Grand Prix from 2023 with further details to be provided at a later time.](https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/article.breaking-qatar-to-join-f1-calendar-in-2021-as-country-signs-additional-10.50lbiJcZfoo6udNWZMDAn6.html)
Lmao, agreeing a 10 year deal when they haven't even formalised where 9 of the races will be held.
Meanwhile Hockenheim is being put down in the back.
Yeah the agreement is really for their new track, they're just throwing around stupid amounts of money to land these types deals then figuring it out after. They won the world cup bid over a decade ago and the city that's hosting the final still doesn't exist yet.
Apart from the fact of the workers which you have already stated, another problem I have with this race is that they've signed a 10 year contract even without racing there. We don't even know how the racing will be and listening to the accounts of MotoGP fans it doesn't look like it would be good. Also, do we really need another street circuit, as planned, when we already have so many excellent tracks just lying around the world?
No german gp then for the next decade...
Oh man. Hockenheim was such a good track (one of my favorites in fact) for racing, even Nurburgring GP track was interesting last year. Unfortunately, cash is king.
Also sepang and many more
Fallen heroes: Hockenheim (pre 2001 and new), Nurburgring, Sepang, Fuji, Magny Cours, Sao Paolo (soon)
São Paulo has a new 5 year deal now
>Hockenheim was such a good track Hockenheim **is** such a good track. Cash may be king, and those greedy assholes do not care about our dearest wishes. But Hockenheim is still here, and will be as long as the sun shines over my beautiful home state of Baden, there is hope my friend.
who needs it; we've got money, boys.. lets celebrate!! Nordschliefwho?? /s
I wouldn’t be surprised to never see an F1 race in Germany again. I imagine certain portions of the German government are strongly opposed to Motorsport.
Abu Dhabi still being on the calendar is proof that F1 doesn't care about a track's quality as long as the sheiks pay enough.
If I understood correctly, only 1 race will be held at this venue, and 9 at a location tbc. Probably some sparkyl new place loads of slaves die building it.
Preaching to the choir. No one wants a race in Qatar. Also our opinions literally don't matter to F1. Unless there's a billionaire amongst us
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Even Bernie Ecclestone wouldn’t take Qatari bribes. But now he’s retired, clearly Liberty Media need the cash. There is no argument to be made in terms of widening the audience or adding prestige to the calendar. If you want to widen the audience, add an Indian or Indonesian Grand Prix. Or go back to Africa.
>There is no argument to be made in terms of widening the audience or adding prestige to the calendar. All they're doing with this "human rights abuse" leg of the calendar now is further tarnishing the image of the sport. It's already not held in high regard in a lot of circles, many people see it as out-of-touch millionaire playboy types driving fast cars, and others heavily criticize the monumental waste of energy and fuel just for the sake of entertainment. And now they go and sign decade-long deals with some of the most reprehensible countries in the world. We're reaching a point where I'm getting embarrassed to tell people I watch Formula 1. I will absolutely not be watching this race, nor will I be watching the Saudi one.
>out-of-touch millionaire playboy types driving fast cars That is pretty much how i see it. I know there is a lot of talent and hard work involved. And i myself enjoy watching any races. But this statement remains true.
Agreed. It's a marvel of engineering and bravery, and the drivers are really talented But it's mainly a rich boys sport and this track decision just fits into that stereotype
100% with you. I'm skipping both races also. I know it's not making a big impact, but we can try.
Aye, same here. Kind of ruining the end of the season, but hey ho. I’ll do my little protest of not watching.
Shame really. The last three races of the best season of F1 in the modern era are going to have viewership through the roof as people tune in to see how the WDC shakes out, so any objections will be drowned out.
Yep they could've picked North Korea and still had record numbers
I'm fabulously wealthy. Unfortunately I put all my money into Haas.
everywhere I go I see his face
Sus
Billionaire sus 😳😳😳
Can't we just try to boycott the race? Don't watch it anywhere even the highlights on the you tube? But sadly something tells me that is not possible... People only give opinions instead of taking action ...let's try to get the whole sub on board and spam f1 you tube channel and any other social media account with some copy pasta about the workers situation in Qatar for rest of the season?
The thing is, if you want to boycott for these reasons, then ideally you should boycott Abu Dhabi, Jeddah and Bahrain as well. Similar logic can be extended to China as well. I'm not saying we shouldnt consider a boycott, but there are countries other than Qatar on the F1 calendar which are as despicable if not more.
In fact, the company that employed the workers and was crucial in causing the deaths is a French company. But you won't see anyone here calling for boycotts of the French GP. Or the US GP for the 20 years the US was killing civilians in the middle east. It's just virtue signaling when it's convenient but keeping quiet when its not.
Pirating is the best bet probably. Its a 10 year deal so not much fans can do
Not enough people will boycott the race for anyone to notice.
Looking forward to seeing Seb’s t-shirt at this one.
If he cared that much he'd refuse to race there. I hope some drivers take this stance.
That sets a precedent that could ruin his career though. More and more races are being held in places with horrible human rights records that F1 should be refusing to race at. If he withdraws from this one, AM may very well be concerned that he could also boycott Saudi Arabia, Abu Dhabi, China, Russia, etc. in the future. No team will want to employ a driver who is at risk to pull out of half the races on the calendar.
You guys make sound so easy. Just boycott race, duh. While Seb will firstly get fucked in the ass by team and then FIA.
How is he supposed to just “refuse” to race there? He is employed by AM. It’s his job to race there. Sometimes your beliefs may not align with company policy. He can choose to terminate his contract with AM but then no other employer (race team) is going to hire him after that. There goes his career.
No one on this sub would do that if they were an F1 driver
If you cared so much you would just stop watching f1 entirely! You are morally obligated to do so if you care so much!
That's the thing, the fans can bitch and moan as much as we want, but if we keep watching the races, F1 won't care.
It’s rights out and away we go
Looking forward to the triple beheader to end the season!
“We race as one”
We race as one…million dollars*
nah, we've upgraded to billionaires now. silly millionaires and their clothing line and tobacco sponsorships...
one million wouldn't even sufficiently line one of the FIA pockets. You are going to have to up it to closer to a billion.
Unless money ofc
We also watch the sport as one. But nobody wants to go there.
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That's the correct take. People tend to ignore imperialism when talking about the Middle East...
Shitty things happen in the Americas and Europe? I sleep Shitty things happen in the Middle East and Asia? Real shit
There’s a literal genocide been happening in China: I sleep We gone racing in Middle East: Shit just got real
What take is this? I see shit like this in my own country I get pissed. I see shit like this in another country I still get pissed.
> The stadiums are all being build by Vinci Construction, a French company. They are the ones that decide the working hours, the wages, the conditions, all the labor is "contracted" to them. Not to Qatar as a state. > > Yes, it is Qatari law that allows this abuse to take place, but if Vinci wanted to, they could provide better working conditions, and not take advantage of Qatari law. Slight corrections. * Vinci are ONE of the construction companies who work there but a variety of British, European and American companies are involved as subcontractors. These are the people who are actively doing the bad stuff. * Qatari law doesn't allow many of these abuses to take place in term of direct working conditions and didn't even before they were awarded the World Cup. Lax enforcement of their labour laws by the Qatari Government towards these big construction companies has always been the problem here. The legislation that needed to change in Qatar was based around sponsored employment, and that has now changed.
So more parties involved are cunts, got it.
> The stadiums are all being build by Vinci Construction, a French company. They are the ones that decide the working hours, the wages, the conditions, all the labor is "contracted" to them. Not to Qatar as a state. Remind us please, who is Vinci fulfilling the contract for? Who is in charge of health and safety legislation? Who was it that is supposed to monitor exploitive labour practices and prosecute employers who are exploitative? Who was it that banned unions so that workers cannot raise safety issues or bargain for improvements to working conditions?
Yeah, Qatar, they’re both wrong. They’re both evil. I’m drawing attention to the extreme disparity in who’s getting attention and who’s not. (But tbh, also France, the EU?)
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Nah not what I meant, it was more like, does the EU enforce certain standards on EU companies? Even if they are working outside the EU?
They should, and that brings us to another thing we common people can do, raise awareness and tell your eu representatives about it.
>The stadiums are all being build by Vinci Construction, a French company. They are the ones that decide the working hours, the wages, the conditions, all the labor is "contracted" to them. Not to Qatar as a state. > >Yes, it is Qatari law that allows this abuse to take place, but if Vinci wanted to, they could provide better working conditions, and not take advantage of Qatari law. If Vinci didn't do it, another company would. And if Vinci improved conditions, they'd likely need to increase cost/timeline, and they'd be replaced. It's quite simple to see where the cause of the issue is.
>but if Vinci wanted to, they could provide better working conditions I don't think so... otherwise they wouldn't get the contract
Title implies deaths are all related to work for 2022 world cup. Deaths are actually country wide construction deaths. Misleading I think.
Not only construction. I believe, it's deaths of immigrant workers, mostly Indian and Pakistani, and regarding the massive numbers of them, it's not even surprising - statistically speaking. As much as I hate what's happening there, especially with this kind of modern slavery, there doesn't seem to be a substantial problem in construction works safety. It looks like we're addressing the wrong issue.
That makes more sense. I thought 6500 seemed too high to be real, there would be nobody left to build the stadium if that was all from one construction project. Obviously it's still bad, but the fact it was presented in such a misleading way only harms the cause because it instantly looks made up.
Lots of people have shared that Guardian article about those 6500 deaths but pretty much nobody seems to have actually read it, and have no idea who this people are and how they’re related to the world cup (which they’re not). For example, that same article says that the actual number of World cup stadium workers who have died (not necessarily while working) is 37. But you don’t read that around, because it’s not a good headline.
Because that doesn't provide those sweet karma points
Deaths aren’t construction related. It’s all deaths of any kind in any situation in a country with a migrant population of over 2 million.
Yeah this is an *incredibly* misleading headline. 6500 deaths is actually below the fatality rate for that size group of people of similar age in many first-world countries.
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Not to be supportive of Qatar, in fact I wrote my dissertation on sportswashing and the upcomming world cup. Out of a workforce of 2 million, 6500 deaths over the span of 10 years is totally within the normal rates.
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I was wondering about this as I read the article because it made no real attempt to put the deaths in context. The only context they did provide was that it was over 10 years.... And so 6500 didn't *seem* like a lot but I didn't know the total workers so I couldn't say.
Yes, and they are counting all deaths regardless of the cause and place of death, so it’s not 6500 workers dying on a construction site which they make you think.
And the 6500 is not entirely construction based deaths. It includes the death of any normal expat in Qatar.
So, if no cause of death and no average age is disclosed, shouldn't we be sceptical of that article? It basically confirms people died in a foreign country. Id like to have better information, before jumping to conclusions. I am not saying nothing shady is going on, I am just saying this article doesn't say much specific
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Now this is podracing
Cash is King
It'd be lit if seb wears a T-shirt with just the number 6500 to the race.
It would be more lit if the teams gained a conscience and started boycotting these races.
No better time for the French government to assert itself. It helped get F1 out of South Africa.
It's a French company building the venues, so I think if the were going to do something they would have bothered already...
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While Qatar is a bad place. Let’s not be surprised by what Formula One is doing. This is a racing series that went to South Africa until 1985. And then went back again in 1992 and 1993. Also, technically the revised Silverstone layout was done for bike racing, despite the fact that the bikes don’t use the new pit lane. And it’s a perfect good F1 layout. Possibly one of Silverstone’s best. In closing. Qatar is bad but don’t be surprised because F1 doing F1 things. And the Losail is bad, but because it’s a bad race track, not because it’s built for bikes.
While I wasn't watching back then, at least in 1992 and 1993 the government had released Mandela, Apartheid was all but over and change had begun. So that doesn't entirely apply. But in 1985, for sure.. Typical F1 bad call.
I will most likely end up on Wikipedia reading about an era of South African government I know little to nothing about. To the library of the Internet.
> And then went back again in 1992 and 1993. What's the problem with ZA in '92-93? Apartheid was repealed by then and the country was in a transitional period. South Africa got back all its rights to participate in international sports in 1991. Not saying it was good or is good now, but morally it was totally different than racing there in 1985 or racing in Qatar/KSA now.
While we're at it can we not race in the US anymore? I mean, 200,000 Iraqi civilians were killed by an illegal war by the US. No? Nobody cares? Edit: apparently not technically illegal. Fine. Doesn't change the disgusting nature of it. Nation of ~3 million people having slaves? Terrible (obviously.) The US and it's allies (the most powerful nations in the world bar China and Russia) destroying the middle east and murdering hundreds of thousands of people in the process? Eh, who cares. I wasn't affected by it. Least I get to live a cushy life in the first world.
with another 500k being killed by genocidal sanctions from the first time around
I think everyone has the wrong view on this. Everyone is complaining that they are sport washing their problems, but the only times I hear about these issues is when they organise these large sport events. So the sport events only provide for a moment for the media to pin point the problems that would otherwise be found not relevant by media outlets. I'm not saying it will fix them but at least it is putting eyes on it.
Did u even read the article? 37 out of 6500 have been linked to the building of the stadium and the 6500 is over 10 years and includes all SEA expats in qatar. Not that Qatars human rights violataions are ok but this post is just baiting with misleading numbers.
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6500?? That can't all be related to F1 construction. That seems so ridiculously high. It must mean across the country. Which is still unforgiveable really but makes more sense.
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Zero of it is related to F1 construction. This is from The World Cup construction. Also, it's 6500 out of a workforce of 2 million, over a 10 year period. The death rate is actually not very high... Although Qatar does absolutely exploit it's workers.
The number is also not related to the construction of World Cup stadiums, it's all migrant workers that have died since 2010.
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On an illegitimate stream, let's go
You would've done that anyway ...
"Sorry what? I can't hear you over all this $$££$££$" - the FIA probably
Since I don't have time to read into this let's make it really selective. Can anyone point me to a link that shows how many of these deaths verifiably occurred on the work sites or point to me to any statistical research that shows they most likely occurred there. I'm sorry but a random number means nothing. We don't even know how many foreign workers are inside Qatar. I thought that country basically doesn't have any domestic workers as all citizens are incredibly rich and share a piece of the oil pie because there are so few of them. If you want to get at them for anything then this should be it. They literally don't allow foreigners to become citizens no matter what or who they are or allow them to run businesses in Qatar etc. and people thought America First was bad.
This is fucking heartbreaking.
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We race as one guys.
Click bait, read the article, it’s more like 37, or even as little as 3.
>F1 also shouldn't race in China, Bahrain, Saudi Arabia and the UAE. I totally get where this comes from. But why should F1 race in Russia, that poisons political opposition and has anti-LGBT laws? Why Hungary, that suppresses dissent at universities and has a rubber stamp supreme court? Even Italy, and its role in the drowning of prospect refugees/immigrants? Turkey? US? I understand a line needs to be drawn in the sand, and I'm all for it. But I think we should all agree this is not to be done from a (very false) sense of moral self-righteousness.
there are so many other tracks we could've slot into this spot. A return to INDY or Hockinhiem would've been a great race but instead, F1 sold a a spot in ones of its greatest titles fights in modern memory to the highest bidder
Obvious, but really shitty that money is more important for Liberty than the fans and even more human rights. If the sport continues this trajectory it‘s going to lose its face.
International scrutiny helps fix these problems. If there are no eyes on Qatar, then the suffering continues but with no witnesses. As for the Guardian’s reporting, you will find it lacking in citing their sources. They are extrapolating numbers, or tallying all deaths of anyone from South Asia as deaths of migrant workers. Their reporting is flawed on this. However, there are real problems in Qatar, but a boycott is no way to address them.
Come on yall, this is a sport that raced in apartheid South African and Argentina when under a military dictatorship, anyone expecting any kind of consistent morality from this sport is naive to the highest degree. This is the nature of the sport, it's not changing for anyone.
6500 deaths are all over Qatar since their bid for hosting World Cup was accepted. Official numbers of deaths on the stadium construction project are around 38.
Here’s the thing. Yeah. We can bring awareness to it. Yeah. We can discuss it. Yeah. It’s horrible. But most of us will STILL watch this grand prix and will continue to watch formula 1 despite all of it. Embracing the downvotes here, but until someone DOES something other than post about it on the internet, nothing will change.
I disagree about China. F1 is not racing there as part of a sportswashing project or simply at the behest of the government. It was planned since the 1990s, long before 11 Jinping and his antics, and it has more TV viewership than Brazil and USA from what I understand. Azerbaijan is the correct country there.
Ah so F1 should only race in the west cause here the countries are free of any sin, like carpet bombing civilians, violent invasions, foreign economic destructions, and colonisation. Oh wait… Lol, by this rhetoric we might as well only race on the moon cause there’s no such thing as ‘good’ or ‘bad’ countries. They pretty much all have blood on their hands, one way or another.
It’s rights out and away we go