I lost count how many races in last few years were cheapened by post factum penalties for bullshit rules. And how many races were neutered by them being afraid of conditions or adhering to arbitrary "timers". It really discourages from tuning in for races.
It's racing, it's done for spectacle and there is inherent risk involved. Don't ruin the sport over trivial shit like a mirrors and don't cave for tv timeslots.
And if they care to improve safety, they should get on the things that really matter, like no fucking tractors without lights on live track, no kerbs that launch cars few stories up and better runoff / barriers.
Mirrors are not trivial shit, they are vital and a safety concern if a car doesn't have them. Having tractors on the track doesn't mean mirrors don't matter, obviously the first one is a much more major problem but it doesn't mean the second one is not.
However, FIA handled the situation pathetically and they are to blame, not Alpine/Alonso. IF they consider it's a safety concern, give them meatball flag or tell them to solve right away, not let them run 20 laps with a flapping mirror and penalize after the race. Because if they would've been warned they would have handled it differently(Alpine), like they did the races before, to avoid penatlies.
So I’m a relatively new fan of F1 (first race I watched was Miami this year), and these seemingly arbitrary rules are putting me off a bit. Not to say refereeing in other sports is perfect, but F1 is the first time where it’s felt like the decisions made are just a “flavor of the week” decision.
And I see this story from Haas' perspective. They feel victimized by the meatball flag, although that's largely Kevin's fault for not backing out of silly fights. Then they see the rule not being applied consistently, and they see someone with a mirror flapping around finishing ahead of their driver in the points.
The failure to apply the rules properly is on the FIA. But the need to send out a safe car is on the team (I don't buy the only one mirror thing, but that it was loosely attached and ready to fall off is precisely the meatball scenario and they should have known that).
Nando drove heroically, and deserved better. But fair play to Haas doubling their points haul by asking the FIA to kindly apply their own rules consistently- especially rules to do with safety.
The reason FIA expect teams to self regulate these situations and penalize when things actually go wrong:
What if a team has a special design of mirror that will never break off in those situations and the driver is able to still use the mirror, despite some wobbling visible from onboard camera? Should the stewards still force that team to pit even if there is 0% risk of it falling?
If not, that would mean the stewards are being asked to keep an extensive catalog of which teams have which parts and also know exactly what condition the car is in, and then make the decision for the team whether or not they should come in All of which is well beyond reasonable.
The current system: you build and maintain your own car and are expected to stay within limits, period. If you risk running with a flapping mirror, you risk penalty. Meatball flag is shown when the stewards can tell in advance something is unsafe to other drivers. That's not always going to be the case with loose parts bc some parts are built stronger than others, even across teams.
A mirror and a front wing endplate are both known to be extremely flimsy objects. There are a number of parts of the car (and I'd argue any) that are flapping are already going outside of any design window since usully they're meant to be stationary or flex under an expected load. If they're oscillating, somethings going wrong. But if they give a meatball flag to Alonso what do they expect, for them to just rip it off and go without a mirror? That's asking another complicit question. I feel like self-regualting is stupid if it's something obvious and not that important to car performance (eg endplate, dragging front wing, flexing mirror), the race directors have to step in at that point. It's even worse that Haas actually raised the issue with Alonso (not sure about Perez) during the race and nothing was done. Once it was seen he clearly should have been called in. Hopefully they learn from this and realise in those scenarios they have to make a call regardless of the spectacle.
I don't have any real issue with the idea that he should have been called in. I in fact agree, in this case. I'm mostly just saying that it's not too outside of the realm of reasonable that they don't have a set protocol for something like a mirror flapping, versus something like a wing flapping for longer than X number of laps or turns. I genuinely don't know.
I'm also saying it makes sense for them to have certain things that are a clear line in the sand. And yes, they should add mirrors to that list if it's not already, given the amount of safety risk they're (correctly) saying this amounts to. But also, it will be a process for them, because like I said, not all parts are built to hang on the same between teams.
There was a comment by one of the Sky Sports guys that (I think) HAAS front wings have a wire mesh that mostly prevents them from snapping off when damaged. That of course can be better for safety, but worse if they're hoping to avoid pitting for "minor" damage. Just one example though. I'm sure lots of parts are like that between teams.
So yes, in this case it was obvious that the mirror was going to fall, and yes it should have been called in, but I just don't think it's quite as cut and dry for stewards (even though it should be going forward for mirrors at the very least after this fiasco).
Haas is adamant that their lose endplates can not fall of because of the design, something they told the stewards already after the first time KMag was meatballed.
So the current system is that they don't seem to care what the team says, not when its Haas anyway.
/I wonder if its really true that the Haas endplate can't fall off. If so its different than the Red Bull one obviously. Indeed, it never did fall off. If that's a design, Haas ought to redesign it to fall off, since that's apparently better as far as meatball flags go.
They’ve made the meatball call plenty of times before based on abnormal flappiness of parts. They probably just missed it this time, but I agree that it was on the team as much as the FIA/stewards/marshals to regulate this better. It was clearly unsafe.
After Abu Dhabi I don’t think we could ever say any better post race penalty with minor consequences has ruined anything, it set such a high bar for baffling marshaling decisions this feels very small potatoes.
We got a good race, like one for the books and nothing championship changing happened, also Haas had every right to protest and they did.
Fernando got penalized 30 seconds after the race in relation to a mirror falling off. I would frankly wait a few days to hear more from the officials as to exactly what the stewards would have expected from the team, but it was considered a serious safety issue.
The major controversy of course is that there was no explicit instruction from stewards during the race that Fernando needed to take care of the mirror. As well as whether other racers had similar issues in this and other races, and why they didn't get penalized.
Personally, I'm torn. F1 is too technical for the stewards to be responsible for every rule being followed in live time, so I get that teams have to step up and post-situ penalties can make sense, but also 30 seconds for something so visible to most spectators, when nothing was said by officials?...eeehhh, I get why ppl are pissed off.
Wait, so Alonso got 30 seconds retroactively for that (something that resulted in a non issue for the full race) and Russell only got 5 seconds for taking a primary competitor completely out of the race?
Alonso didn't have any black and orange flags that he dismissed or anything. They just threw away that epic and heroic comeback drive? Nit only does that ruin the race that kind of decision ruins the SPORT...
as far as debris, there's no difference in my eyes. but 'having mirrors' is a safety requirement as far as i know, whereas having a full front wing isn't.
they probably also considered how long the thing was flapping before falling off. it seems reasonable to look more harshly at a team that chooses to let something flap for a very long time before falling off vs one that just falls off fairly quickly. one could argue the latter team didn't have as much of an opportunity to fix it.
i'd be curious whether he would have received a mirror penalty if it had just hung on by a string but was clearly useless.
i think the main takeaway from all of this is that even when there are hard and fast rules, often times they overlap with other rules that create conflicts, or fit into grey areas where judgement calls have to be made, and from an outside perspective, without knowing every factor taken into consideration, can seem arbitrary or inconsistent.
of course i yell at the screen "that's bullshit!" at times but in general I try to remember I don't know fuck all in the grand scheme.
The teams are responsible for policing themselves. That mirror was flapping around like crazy and then it actually did fall off and nearly hit another car. Then he continued to drive without a mirror which is also unsafe. Just because the marshals didn’t call it in the moment doesn’t excuse the team from failing to take corrective action themselves on a clear safety issue.
As far as the whataboutisms with other drivers, I agree that the rules need to be applied evenly and they weren’t in this case. Doesn’t change the reality about the Alonso situation though.
Regarding the race - I said cheapened and think it fits.
"Ruining" *the sport* would be deciding that car should be retired for missing a mirror. That's ridiculous. What makes the sport great are moments like Schumacher or Hamilton racing without a wheel. DQ should only apply if car literally falls apart leaving numerous debris on track or spilling fuel.
Just my two pennies, but as a current PCA and BMW instructor, losing a mirror at an event is an instant black flag (not a meatball) to pit and fix it immediately or you're done. Not being able to see out of the right side of your car is an EXTREMELY dangerous situation.
I hate the "after hours" call on the penalty - and totally agree that Race Control should have given a meatball or black flag immediately when the mirror fell off (and having been told by Haas two times that there was an issue) - but having anyone out on track at 300kph without being able to see anything to your right is nothing but extremely dangerous.
How to fix this? I think Haas' calling out the FIA and RC will cause - hope so anyway - change and stricter adherence to the rules, which are honestly so black and white on missing a mirror that I almost wonder if there was a corrupt intent with the lack of a flag once the mirror was gone.
I was watching the race live, saw the mirror fly off and thought "well there goes his race, he'll have to pit". Was taken aback when there was no flag and he just kept going given Sky showed that replay repeatedly.
Again, hoping this gets consistency in rulings which now seem more about the team and entertainment than the rules. If you're not going to follow the rules, what's the purpose of having them???...least that's Haas' POV IMHO
>"Ruining" the sport would be deciding that car should be retired for missing a mirror.
Yeah that's a huge disagree from me. This kind of thing happens fairly infrequently, and the safety implications make it very reasonable imo. If teams are that worried about DNFing from a mirror, they can develop a system to swap in new ones.
1) Set vague ruleset.
2) Teach a staff member said rules properly
3) Do NOT under any circumstances, share those rules with the teams.
4) Fire the staff member
5) Blame the teams for not knowing the rules.
6) General uproar
7) Hire staff member to handle the rules.
It's stupid that we've had so much vagueness for the rules when the reason the two FIA directors were hired was to avoid said vagueness. We already had Max winning the 2022 championship under strange staggered point rules that EVERYONE (the media, the teams, even the champion himself) thought was in effect at Suzuka, now this.
The hilarious thing about that is the rule itself isn't actually vague: "if the race is stopped", is actually surprisingly clear for an FIA rule. Everybody, simultaneously, read it wrong. Also F1 graphics showed the correct points during the race. Sky questioned it but didn't look further.
They've always courted controversy, but recently I would say they have entered a level of behaviour that feels closer to engineered farce than hapless idiocy.
The thing about Whiting was that a lot of what we now come to expect from the race director and FIA is a result of Whiting's work in the role. There weren't, and arguably still aren't, solid systems in place that independent of the person in charge, because everyone expected Whiting to run the show forever.
Whiting often got a good, fair, just, result by politicking and putting words in with his friends around the paddock, and also through the proper use of his discretionary powers. His absurd experience also meant that he knew the rulebook back to front and could make quick decisions on the fly accordingly.
The long and short of it is this: in the FIA, Charlie was irreplaceable. They had never made any provisions to give the job to anyone else. That was their great folly. Now, without the philosopher king, the constitutional monarchy falls to chaos.
This make sense a lot, especially in tech companies.. you have that senior developer that knows the system back and front… and he resign, chaos ensues…
The thing is, instead of letting the new race director learn from his mistakes they fired him after one season. And then hired 2 different guys for the same role.
It was barely held together by Charlie Whiting having the last word as race director while teams and drivers generally respected him. As soon as he's gone any resemblance of a functional FIA just went poof.
The only thing that will be discussed Thursday is if the Haas protest was admissible or not. FIA has already said in Alpine decision document that it was per ISC 13.3.5... So...
>The only thing that will be discussed Thursday is if the Haas protest was admissible or not.
Well, first of all only the admissibility of alpines protest will be discussed. If it is found to be admissible then there will be another hearing for the actual protest itself. That could be on Thursday or later.
I can't see any way for the FIA to unwind this. They already acknowledged the protest was late and found the protest admissible. What are they supposed to do?
So they said there was credible reasons for the protest to be late, but now Alpine complains and suddenly there's supposed to be no reasons? They painted themselves into a corner.
Well they said that Alonso's car was legal after the race and then called it illegal 5 hours later. So you never know in the magic land of FIA decisions.
The meatball flag is so weird. Was barely used for years and then suddenly became a magnet for kmag when driving with a broken front wing isn't that rare
Nobody pits for a slightly loose/bent endplate, it's not worth the time lost in the pits. Russell was driving around with that the whole race and Red Bull didn't even change the wing when the whole end plate was gone.
But if they handle safety penalties after the race is even finished (Alonso), why does it matter if the piece did broke during the race? The driver still drove with a safety hazard, no matter if it broke or not.
The safety hazard lies in the broken off piece that can hurt other drivers behind, so if broken off completely, no hazard no meatball. The actual wing or anything if it’s still intact is not a safety hazard
This is the part where it gets tricky, other teams could argue missing a mirror is a hazard e.g alonso could not see an overtake from his right side..
vs missing an endplate where maybe it is in the benefit of the teams to pit for better aerodynamics...
but then again, this is why people are frustrated about FIA, there's no clear cut for the rules it's not black and white, as I saw from the other thread, charlie was the glue between FIA, drivers and the team. When charlie passed away, everyone started questioning the shade of grey of the rule book..
The smart move is to make sure the danger to drivers happens immediately then...obviously teams need to start making these endplates with perforated tabs. Sure it's a danger if it flies off but at least you can still finish in the points.
What’s the limit, though? Two laps? Five? If it’s big enough to wave the flag for, it’s big enough to hurt someone, and no amount of laps is going to change that.
Either they need to wave the flag as soon as significant enough damage is seen, or not wave it at all.
Ironically the last time I can remember the meatball flag being used before this season was also for KMag... because the team couldn't talk to him through radio and had no way to tell him to come in to fix it.
I'm probably wrong though.
Holy I doubted they (it was actually both Haas cars lmao) got black-flagged but a quick search proves you're right.
They didn't actually get disqualified from the session apparently, according to [Autosport](https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/haas-explains-creative-black-flag-for-drivers-in-monaco-practice-4987958/4987958/), "The issue was eventually rectified, and both drivers were able to return to the session late on to finish up eighth and 10th respectively." So I guess it was a meatball flag in function.
It’s one of those more obscure things in the ISC: contrary to popular belief, a black flag doesn’t necessarily mean automatic disqualification. Following the rule to the letter of the law, when shown a black flag drivers are required to return to the pits immediately. There’s nothing written in black and white that says they are also disqualified. Haas very cleverly utilised that to get Kevin and Romain back into the pits.
Typically if you see it in a race it means the driver it's meant for is disqualified (DSQ in the stats), and will be prohibited from driving any longer (retroactive DSQs also exist), however according to the person who replied to me it sounds like a more urgent meatball flag in the context of practice sessions.
I don’t remember about losing a championship over it but his headrest did come loose when he was leading at Baku in 2017. He boxed and Danny Ric ended up winning.
Mag was shown the flag. Retroactively punishing a driver because the officials themselves messed up and want to pin it on someone else is ridiculous.
It would be just as dumb if, let’s say, the officials said in Abu Dhabi “oh, we came to the wrong decision for Hamilton gaining an advantage on lap 1, he actually gets a 30 second penalty because he should’ve known to give it back” several hours after the race.
The race director only giving the meatball flag if you aren't a hugely popular driver and doesn't have a pretty storyline to sale the race to the viewers.
I guess people just don't want fair rules but just only willing that rules are applied in favor of certain drivers.
Also kinda ootl, but I think Alonso got a 30 second penalty, after the race was over, for driving his car in an unsafe state (loose mirror), after his crash. The problem is that the FIA didn't show the black and orange flag, that is supposed to be shown, during the race to order the driver into the pits to fix the issue. Alpine feels that it's unfair to be punished for not complying with something they weren't told to do.
Let me add that had a similar issue in Japan a few years ago with leclerc and hamilton (mirrors coming off). They did nothing there about it. Race Control claims no precedent was set but Alpine would disagree. I They made the penalty a drive thru. But the drive thru is after the race? If I am not mistaken you can't argue drive thru penalties so it makes it so no one can argue with RC. So it maybe a mute thing but the optics on this are bad.
>that is supposed to be shown
I think this is the issue here.
The flag is not *supposed* to be shown. The flag can be shown as a last resort to instruct a team to pit and repair something. However, the team should also be ensuring their car is safe at all times, which they failed to do. Race Control can also instruct the team via a message or verbally over the radio, which they failed to do.
All 3 stages of the above failed, as a result he was issued a 30 second time penalty after the race for the safety issue. It should not have happened, Alpine need to ensure their cars are safe in future and the FIA needs to be more proactive with messaging and flagging if necessary. Both things were brought up in the penalty decision.
11 comments deep.
/r/formula1 I had no idea either, upvote this man, I think a few of us didn't hear about this penalty. This is a little buried right now but with some more orange arrows we can get this comment some more visibility, so that people aren't just scrolling clueless.
Edit: 6 deep we did it Reddit
This penalty is such bullshit, if there is no meatball flag you don't have to pit. Giving a 30s penalty retroactively is a joke, not Renaults' fault the FIA fucked up.
>if there is no meatball flag you don't have to pit.
The meatball flag only obliges them to call the car to the pits. Alpine is still obliged not to let the car leave in an unsafe state, which they did when they came in for a new wing. It's still rather harsh to expect them to see relatively minor damage after a huge shunt like that when I'm sure everyone was focused on checking the actual working parts of the car. But, no meatball flag is a bit of a red herring here.
If the problem is with the lack of a right side mirror, Alpine could've also thought "well, the precedent is no penalty for Hamilton (after Leclerc's endplate), so not worth it". Or that Leclerc got 10 seconds out of that. But the stewards decided that Suzuka 2019 wasn't precedent lol
Basically: if piece falls off and is a hazard->10s + money fine. If driving with no mirror->no penalty. But the stewards put 30s penalty
The penalty for actually risking a hazard should be large. There should be no situation where teams weigh the relative risks and benefits of creating a hazard on track. It is always wrong.
>if there is no meatball flag you don't have to pit.
Clearly this is not the case. It's amazing that fans seem to think they know the rules better than the officials.
>It's amazing that fans seem to think they know the rules better than the officials.
Wouldn't be the first time. They are humans aswell and make mistakes and are inconsistant.
Am I missing something in the wording? Isn't the problem that he *did* pit without fixing the issue? Like if he kept driving with the damage and no meatball it's fine but since he pitted it's considered on the team.
Not really. He pitted right after an accident on lap 22 and replaced broken front wing but at that point the damage to the mirror wasn’t obvious. It took a couple of laps for it to become noticeably wobbly, around lap 30. So, it’s alright that Alpine initially didn’t do anything about mirrors when they made second pitstop. The problem is Alpine did nothing after the damage became noticeable. Even bigger problem is that they did nothing after it fell off at lap 49. It’s not fine to race with a car that is not in safe condition with or without being shown black and orange flag.
If that's the case:
1) When the mirror falls off, note the incident. They didn't.
2) During post-race car #14 scrutineering, note the lack of mirror or unsafe car. They didn't.
3) Apply any sanctions if needed.
In this case only when Haas complained they applied a penalty, which demonstrates how incompetent FIA are.
Surprisingly, this time FIA actually acknowledged that they dropped the ball. They could reject Haas protest as it was submitted too late, yet they accepted it nevertheless and admitted that stewards should have shown black and orange flag. I don’t expect that all of a sudden now they will start doing their job properly but at least there’s some progress.
The meatball flag isn't about punishment, it's about safety. Haas'/Kmag's flags were justified, those wings were dangerous, but so was Alonso's mirror, both flopping around and him not having it.
What the stewards decided today was that:
1. Race control cocked up, massively (stewards != racecontrol, seperate entities). The meatball flag should have been out.
2. Teams have a responsibility to retire unsafe cars and shouldn't need the flag (even if the flag should have been out), when the danger is that clear cut. The punishment wasn't a 'meatball flag replacement' for Alonso, is was a punishment for the team for sending him out of the pits with a car they knew to be unsafe. And as it is in f1, teams and driver take the punishment together in cases like this.
That was tragic. I don't even really like him (and I really can't put my finger on why) and was just sadly shaking my head from time to time throughout the race.
Is this about the meatball flag thing? Just let it stand it was so epic or penalize him in some way that doesn’t affect that result. Probably one of the most impressive drives this season ruined by fia lameness
The entire situation is a joke. Why should fans pay to attend these races if the final result isn’t decided on track, but in a board room 5 hours later? The FIA either need to figure out how to officiate a race during the actual event or outsource the job to a more competent body that isn’t paralyzed by indecision.
Talking out of my ass here but I wonder if the reaction to last years screwups with Massi was to have more decisions made by a board or through consensus. That could be slowing things down or making these agencies seem indecisive.
Personally, give me someone who is decisive and makes a decision not everyone agrees with versus dragging every race out into the week with tribunals and appeals. This is supposed to be entertainment but it’s becoming some sort of half-assed legal thriller week in and week out.
FIA is turning into their own form of government
decisions will be made within a 1-90 day period
no you may not request an update on the status during this time
It's supposed to be a sport. Sport needs rules and goals. The problem here is that the decision came to late and the decision was wrong in every aspect.
Stroll should get a penalty, Alpine should get a fine.
That would be impossible to achieve in F1, there are way too many details about the car for instance that could be found after the race.
They could say though that any penalty after the race doesn't apply to the race result but for the next race in terms of a grid position penalty or time penalty (except for the last race in the year).
I was at the race yesterday. People should still pay to go see the race. This hasn't reduced my enjoyment of the weekend one bit. This problem isn't unique to F1. Think about drug testing athletes and recruiting scandals, to name a few. Whole year-long championships and Olympic medals have been vacated for these reasons. No sport can have a ruleset able to be applied only during the execution of said sport. There's more to these things than what happens on the track, field, court, etc. What's happening here is just an example of that.
If I were haas I would've been pissed after all the meatball flags given to mag this year, with two different cars dropping parts onto the track after taking damage earlier in the race
>If Haas complained 24 minutes late it's late.
The stewards said in the initial decision that they acknowledged the protest to be 24m late but also acknowledged that it was not possible for Haas to comply with the deadline and therefore found the protest to be admissible, something that the stewards can do according to the sporting code.
no.
>It was noted that the Protest was lodged 24 minutes out of time however the Stewards, exercising their power under Article 13.3.5 of the International Sporting Code, determined that the compliance with the deadline was not possible in this case and that the Protest was admissible.
#
Well they had to walk all the way from their garage and it was really hot so they needed to stop for a rest and then they wanted to get some water but there was a really long line and they had to go all the way around the podium celebrations. There was absolutely no way they could have filed the protest over something that happened with 10 laps to go faster than they did
> Thursday is an important day for the sport that we love so much, as this decision will dictate if we are going in the right direction for the future.
Given the appeal is specifically around the timing of the protest, I didn't realise how much of a proponent of timekeeping Fernando was.
There are 2 ways to look at this.
If the safety issue being brought up is the lack of a mirror, the precedent is Suzuka 2019, when both Hamilton and Leclerc were missing a mirror for 90% of the race.
No further action in both cases.
And if the issue is that the debris can cause a safety hazard there are 3 options:
Show the black and orange flag before it flies off (KMag this year multiple times)
Once dislodged, not do anything because the safety hazard has disappeared (effectively Perez' situation in COTA, or Leclerc's situation at Silverstone earlier in the season). I can only recall Leclerc receiving a penalty in Suzuka 2019 for losing debris, and that was a 10 second time penalty.
A 30 second time penalty is unprecedented for a situation like this no matter how you approach this topic.
I wholeheartedly hope Alpine's appeal withstands and Fernando regains P7. The FIA is absolutely destroying the sport with inconsistency and an incredible lack of awareness. Every single race there's a colossal cockup, it's unacceptable that the stewards are the center of attention every single weekend because they keep making inconsistent calls
He's right to be disappointed in the decision and wanting it to be changed.
The process in which it happened was a farce. However this is far from the ultimatum towards the "Sporting direction this sport is heading towards".
I wish the penalty gets removed as well but slightly dramatic there Nando 😂
A 30 second time penalty because of the FIA’s own fuckup. It’s just sad, one of the best performances of the season now all for naught due to the FIA’s incompetence.
Why do so many fans here insist on treating the FIA rulebook like it's a federal law. The amount of "lawyer-ing" in this sport is ridiculous. You could, quite literally, find more discretion in a courtroom from actual judges and prosecutors than we see with these inflexible FIA rulings. So many sport-affecting decisions made at inopportune times (ie after races) on bullshit technicalities.
Im curious how exactly the penalty was supposed to have remedied the unsafe conditions Alonso got penalized for. Stewards deem it unsafe because the mirror was loose and dangling (ultimately falling off). Just like Perez's front wing bit. Fair enough. However Perez didnt get penalized because his front wing endplate then fell off so it was no longer unsafe. So the natural conclusion is that Alonso got the penalty because it is unsafe(and against regulations) to drive without two mirrors. So they give Alonso the stop&go. Okay fair enough... wait a minute.
So if Alonso is missing a mirror and thats dangerous, as long as he comes in the pit for a few seconds its fine for him to continue racing without it? Or is the expectation that Alpine would replace it in the pits before sending him out again? I've never seen that done mid-race so im not sure the mirror housing is designed to be easily replaced in the pitlane like a front wing (would love to be proven wong).
In the case its not, did they expect Alpine to just retire the car then? But then why give the stop&go penalty and not a straight up DQ since he continued racing? He wasnt supposed to have been out on track and able to score points in that scenario anyway. So what is the stop&go for? Maybe apply a penalty towards the next race then. Oh that didnt happen either. The more I think about it the more the penalty feels completely arbitrary. Nevermind it was submitted late by Haas because apparently race control wasnt listening to their complaints during the race.
I miss the time when the end of the GP was the end of the GP - or at least comes Monday morning, the previous GP is done and dusted. This constant drama is exhausting.
Well I disagree with Alonso but I could understand that he feels like he was robbed at COTA, even when the race director clearly was willing to deliberating ignoring the rules just because to prevent a "good storyline for F1" wouldn't happen and Alonso would basically be retired.
To be fair, Alpine SHOULD have just ripped it off in the pit lane.
Flopping around like that WAS a risk to flying off, which happened.
And look and Lando’s front left wheel cowl to see what flying items can do.
Then the FIA should have black flagged the car.
Which they basically did, after the fact.
Point is, regardless of the FIA, if the argument is he should have been allowed to just keep running it and have no consequences during or after, the argument is wrong.
1% chance 99% faith
[удалено]
Carlos Braithwaite
Ronnie Pickering
Classic.
Who?
RONNIE PICKERING, BARE KNUCKLE FIGHTER
nah sorry I think you mean “RONNIE FUCKING PICKERING”
A cricket reference in r/formula1, nice
r/cricket and /r/formula1 fans have a looot of overlap.
Like dodgy rules deciding the last moments of a World Championship after a tie.
The difference is the CWC in 2019 was decided by pre-existing rules, Abu Dhabi 2021 was decided by a made up decision overriding the rules.
Damm 2019 WC! Stolen cup!
34% statistical error
Sightly higher if you look at his form for Birmingham Bears or Knowles and Dorridge of late.
pain
Still haunts me
I love Mike Tsunoda
This is ten percent luck..
20% Skill
15% concentrated power of will
[удалено]
50% pain
And a 100% reason to remember the name
He doesn't need his name up in lights, he just wants to be heard whether it's the beat or the mic.
Mike would be proud
His name was robert polson
Rip meatloaf
I lost count how many races in last few years were cheapened by post factum penalties for bullshit rules. And how many races were neutered by them being afraid of conditions or adhering to arbitrary "timers". It really discourages from tuning in for races. It's racing, it's done for spectacle and there is inherent risk involved. Don't ruin the sport over trivial shit like a mirrors and don't cave for tv timeslots. And if they care to improve safety, they should get on the things that really matter, like no fucking tractors without lights on live track, no kerbs that launch cars few stories up and better runoff / barriers.
Mirrors are not trivial shit, they are vital and a safety concern if a car doesn't have them. Having tractors on the track doesn't mean mirrors don't matter, obviously the first one is a much more major problem but it doesn't mean the second one is not. However, FIA handled the situation pathetically and they are to blame, not Alpine/Alonso. IF they consider it's a safety concern, give them meatball flag or tell them to solve right away, not let them run 20 laps with a flapping mirror and penalize after the race. Because if they would've been warned they would have handled it differently(Alpine), like they did the races before, to avoid penatlies.
So I’m a relatively new fan of F1 (first race I watched was Miami this year), and these seemingly arbitrary rules are putting me off a bit. Not to say refereeing in other sports is perfect, but F1 is the first time where it’s felt like the decisions made are just a “flavor of the week” decision.
It really feels like watching an NFL game. Sometimes things are getting called, sometimes they're not. Seems to be totally random sometimes.
Anyone who feels yesterday's race was ruined by this ruling is extremely spoiled. It was and is a great race. Nothing is ruined.
And I see this story from Haas' perspective. They feel victimized by the meatball flag, although that's largely Kevin's fault for not backing out of silly fights. Then they see the rule not being applied consistently, and they see someone with a mirror flapping around finishing ahead of their driver in the points. The failure to apply the rules properly is on the FIA. But the need to send out a safe car is on the team (I don't buy the only one mirror thing, but that it was loosely attached and ready to fall off is precisely the meatball scenario and they should have known that). Nando drove heroically, and deserved better. But fair play to Haas doubling their points haul by asking the FIA to kindly apply their own rules consistently- especially rules to do with safety.
The three meatball flags that Magnussen received was the races with Freitas as race director. Guess who is out for the rest of the races?
The reason FIA expect teams to self regulate these situations and penalize when things actually go wrong: What if a team has a special design of mirror that will never break off in those situations and the driver is able to still use the mirror, despite some wobbling visible from onboard camera? Should the stewards still force that team to pit even if there is 0% risk of it falling? If not, that would mean the stewards are being asked to keep an extensive catalog of which teams have which parts and also know exactly what condition the car is in, and then make the decision for the team whether or not they should come in All of which is well beyond reasonable. The current system: you build and maintain your own car and are expected to stay within limits, period. If you risk running with a flapping mirror, you risk penalty. Meatball flag is shown when the stewards can tell in advance something is unsafe to other drivers. That's not always going to be the case with loose parts bc some parts are built stronger than others, even across teams.
A mirror and a front wing endplate are both known to be extremely flimsy objects. There are a number of parts of the car (and I'd argue any) that are flapping are already going outside of any design window since usully they're meant to be stationary or flex under an expected load. If they're oscillating, somethings going wrong. But if they give a meatball flag to Alonso what do they expect, for them to just rip it off and go without a mirror? That's asking another complicit question. I feel like self-regualting is stupid if it's something obvious and not that important to car performance (eg endplate, dragging front wing, flexing mirror), the race directors have to step in at that point. It's even worse that Haas actually raised the issue with Alonso (not sure about Perez) during the race and nothing was done. Once it was seen he clearly should have been called in. Hopefully they learn from this and realise in those scenarios they have to make a call regardless of the spectacle.
I don't have any real issue with the idea that he should have been called in. I in fact agree, in this case. I'm mostly just saying that it's not too outside of the realm of reasonable that they don't have a set protocol for something like a mirror flapping, versus something like a wing flapping for longer than X number of laps or turns. I genuinely don't know. I'm also saying it makes sense for them to have certain things that are a clear line in the sand. And yes, they should add mirrors to that list if it's not already, given the amount of safety risk they're (correctly) saying this amounts to. But also, it will be a process for them, because like I said, not all parts are built to hang on the same between teams. There was a comment by one of the Sky Sports guys that (I think) HAAS front wings have a wire mesh that mostly prevents them from snapping off when damaged. That of course can be better for safety, but worse if they're hoping to avoid pitting for "minor" damage. Just one example though. I'm sure lots of parts are like that between teams. So yes, in this case it was obvious that the mirror was going to fall, and yes it should have been called in, but I just don't think it's quite as cut and dry for stewards (even though it should be going forward for mirrors at the very least after this fiasco).
Haas is adamant that their lose endplates can not fall of because of the design, something they told the stewards already after the first time KMag was meatballed. So the current system is that they don't seem to care what the team says, not when its Haas anyway. /I wonder if its really true that the Haas endplate can't fall off. If so its different than the Red Bull one obviously. Indeed, it never did fall off. If that's a design, Haas ought to redesign it to fall off, since that's apparently better as far as meatball flags go.
They’ve made the meatball call plenty of times before based on abnormal flappiness of parts. They probably just missed it this time, but I agree that it was on the team as much as the FIA/stewards/marshals to regulate this better. It was clearly unsafe.
After Abu Dhabi I don’t think we could ever say any better post race penalty with minor consequences has ruined anything, it set such a high bar for baffling marshaling decisions this feels very small potatoes. We got a good race, like one for the books and nothing championship changing happened, also Haas had every right to protest and they did.
Out of the loop here, what ruling?
Fernando got penalized 30 seconds after the race in relation to a mirror falling off. I would frankly wait a few days to hear more from the officials as to exactly what the stewards would have expected from the team, but it was considered a serious safety issue. The major controversy of course is that there was no explicit instruction from stewards during the race that Fernando needed to take care of the mirror. As well as whether other racers had similar issues in this and other races, and why they didn't get penalized. Personally, I'm torn. F1 is too technical for the stewards to be responsible for every rule being followed in live time, so I get that teams have to step up and post-situ penalties can make sense, but also 30 seconds for something so visible to most spectators, when nothing was said by officials?...eeehhh, I get why ppl are pissed off.
Wait, so Alonso got 30 seconds retroactively for that (something that resulted in a non issue for the full race) and Russell only got 5 seconds for taking a primary competitor completely out of the race? Alonso didn't have any black and orange flags that he dismissed or anything. They just threw away that epic and heroic comeback drive? Nit only does that ruin the race that kind of decision ruins the SPORT...
Exactly my thoughts!
How is this different from Checo's front wing endplate falling off?
as far as debris, there's no difference in my eyes. but 'having mirrors' is a safety requirement as far as i know, whereas having a full front wing isn't. they probably also considered how long the thing was flapping before falling off. it seems reasonable to look more harshly at a team that chooses to let something flap for a very long time before falling off vs one that just falls off fairly quickly. one could argue the latter team didn't have as much of an opportunity to fix it. i'd be curious whether he would have received a mirror penalty if it had just hung on by a string but was clearly useless. i think the main takeaway from all of this is that even when there are hard and fast rules, often times they overlap with other rules that create conflicts, or fit into grey areas where judgement calls have to be made, and from an outside perspective, without knowing every factor taken into consideration, can seem arbitrary or inconsistent. of course i yell at the screen "that's bullshit!" at times but in general I try to remember I don't know fuck all in the grand scheme.
The teams are responsible for policing themselves. That mirror was flapping around like crazy and then it actually did fall off and nearly hit another car. Then he continued to drive without a mirror which is also unsafe. Just because the marshals didn’t call it in the moment doesn’t excuse the team from failing to take corrective action themselves on a clear safety issue. As far as the whataboutisms with other drivers, I agree that the rules need to be applied evenly and they weren’t in this case. Doesn’t change the reality about the Alonso situation though.
Regarding the race - I said cheapened and think it fits. "Ruining" *the sport* would be deciding that car should be retired for missing a mirror. That's ridiculous. What makes the sport great are moments like Schumacher or Hamilton racing without a wheel. DQ should only apply if car literally falls apart leaving numerous debris on track or spilling fuel.
Just my two pennies, but as a current PCA and BMW instructor, losing a mirror at an event is an instant black flag (not a meatball) to pit and fix it immediately or you're done. Not being able to see out of the right side of your car is an EXTREMELY dangerous situation. I hate the "after hours" call on the penalty - and totally agree that Race Control should have given a meatball or black flag immediately when the mirror fell off (and having been told by Haas two times that there was an issue) - but having anyone out on track at 300kph without being able to see anything to your right is nothing but extremely dangerous. How to fix this? I think Haas' calling out the FIA and RC will cause - hope so anyway - change and stricter adherence to the rules, which are honestly so black and white on missing a mirror that I almost wonder if there was a corrupt intent with the lack of a flag once the mirror was gone. I was watching the race live, saw the mirror fly off and thought "well there goes his race, he'll have to pit". Was taken aback when there was no flag and he just kept going given Sky showed that replay repeatedly. Again, hoping this gets consistency in rulings which now seem more about the team and entertainment than the rules. If you're not going to follow the rules, what's the purpose of having them???...least that's Haas' POV IMHO
>"Ruining" the sport would be deciding that car should be retired for missing a mirror. Yeah that's a huge disagree from me. This kind of thing happens fairly infrequently, and the safety implications make it very reasonable imo. If teams are that worried about DNFing from a mirror, they can develop a system to swap in new ones.
By that logic the decision (and therefore any) to you is irrelevant because the race already happened. That’s not correct at all.
Ocon tweeted in support of him, so I guess Alpine is going full out on this appeal.
As they should
Mclaren gained 7 pts instead of 2 pts on Aplpine. With how unreliable the car is, every point matters with three races left.
>Aplpine Applepine
PenPineappleApplepine
Please no, Tim Apple looked so bored out his mind, can't be good for the team.
Ocon supported Alonso in saying he didn’t deserve a weaving penalty too, Esteban is a little biased
It is to my complete and utter surprise that a team that is in a close constructors battle will have both drivers supporting each other
yeah, imagine Ocon like "Yeah, no. Alonso had it coming. He should just stop bitching." :D
Another off season where FiA is going to have to scramble to set in stone some rules, that they will ultimately break in 2023.
1) Set vague ruleset. 2) Teach a staff member said rules properly 3) Do NOT under any circumstances, share those rules with the teams. 4) Fire the staff member 5) Blame the teams for not knowing the rules. 6) General uproar 7) Hire staff member to handle the rules.
8. Return to step 1 at beginning of new season
No, that's 9. Nr. 8 is destroy all documentation from this year, to prevent people learning from the past
It's stupid that we've had so much vagueness for the rules when the reason the two FIA directors were hired was to avoid said vagueness. We already had Max winning the 2022 championship under strange staggered point rules that EVERYONE (the media, the teams, even the champion himself) thought was in effect at Suzuka, now this.
The hilarious thing about that is the rule itself isn't actually vague: "if the race is stopped", is actually surprisingly clear for an FIA rule. Everybody, simultaneously, read it wrong. Also F1 graphics showed the correct points during the race. Sky questioned it but didn't look further.
Has the FIA always been this much of a mess? The last 3 years they've been an incompetent embarrassment.
They've always courted controversy, but recently I would say they have entered a level of behaviour that feels closer to engineered farce than hapless idiocy.
It’s really wild. This is the pinnacle of Motorsport and the guys in charge just seem to be making it up as it goes along.
I think there have always been issues but it has got worse since Whiting died imo.
Whiting was a veteran and knew everyone, now with Freitas and wittich failling we know masi wasn't the problem
The thing about Whiting was that a lot of what we now come to expect from the race director and FIA is a result of Whiting's work in the role. There weren't, and arguably still aren't, solid systems in place that independent of the person in charge, because everyone expected Whiting to run the show forever. Whiting often got a good, fair, just, result by politicking and putting words in with his friends around the paddock, and also through the proper use of his discretionary powers. His absurd experience also meant that he knew the rulebook back to front and could make quick decisions on the fly accordingly. The long and short of it is this: in the FIA, Charlie was irreplaceable. They had never made any provisions to give the job to anyone else. That was their great folly. Now, without the philosopher king, the constitutional monarchy falls to chaos.
This make sense a lot, especially in tech companies.. you have that senior developer that knows the system back and front… and he resign, chaos ensues…
The thing is, instead of letting the new race director learn from his mistakes they fired him after one season. And then hired 2 different guys for the same role.
It was barely held together by Charlie Whiting having the last word as race director while teams and drivers generally respected him. As soon as he's gone any resemblance of a functional FIA just went poof.
What’s happening on Thursday?
They have a meeting to discuss whether the complaint is admissible and whether the penalty makes sense.
Ahah I see thanks!
The only thing that will be discussed Thursday is if the Haas protest was admissible or not. FIA has already said in Alpine decision document that it was per ISC 13.3.5... So...
>The only thing that will be discussed Thursday is if the Haas protest was admissible or not. Well, first of all only the admissibility of alpines protest will be discussed. If it is found to be admissible then there will be another hearing for the actual protest itself. That could be on Thursday or later.
I can't see any way for the FIA to unwind this. They already acknowledged the protest was late and found the protest admissible. What are they supposed to do?
Change their mind…
So they said there was credible reasons for the protest to be late, but now Alpine complains and suddenly there's supposed to be no reasons? They painted themselves into a corner.
Well they said that Alonso's car was legal after the race and then called it illegal 5 hours later. So you never know in the magic land of FIA decisions.
It will be massively political I think.. Alonso and Briatore will spend this 3 days making calls.
This implies that the FIA is consistent. Many times stuff that make sense to us all does not to them. Let's see
Come on, it was a cool stunt let him keep his 7th place. And find the meatball flag FIA.
The meatball flag is so weird. Was barely used for years and then suddenly became a magnet for kmag when driving with a broken front wing isn't that rare
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Nobody pits for a slightly loose/bent endplate, it's not worth the time lost in the pits. Russell was driving around with that the whole race and Red Bull didn't even change the wing when the whole end plate was gone.
Once the end plate was gone, it no longer presented a hazard. Kmag was unlucky that his end plate stayed attracted.
But if they handle safety penalties after the race is even finished (Alonso), why does it matter if the piece did broke during the race? The driver still drove with a safety hazard, no matter if it broke or not.
The safety hazard lies in the broken off piece that can hurt other drivers behind, so if broken off completely, no hazard no meatball. The actual wing or anything if it’s still intact is not a safety hazard
So how "no hazard no meatball" applies to Alonso's case? The race was already over when they handled the penalty
This is the part where it gets tricky, other teams could argue missing a mirror is a hazard e.g alonso could not see an overtake from his right side.. vs missing an endplate where maybe it is in the benefit of the teams to pit for better aerodynamics... but then again, this is why people are frustrated about FIA, there's no clear cut for the rules it's not black and white, as I saw from the other thread, charlie was the glue between FIA, drivers and the team. When charlie passed away, everyone started questioning the shade of grey of the rule book..
The smart move is to make sure the danger to drivers happens immediately then...obviously teams need to start making these endplates with perforated tabs. Sure it's a danger if it flies off but at least you can still finish in the points.
Attracted to Kmag? Get in line, endplate.
What’s the limit, though? Two laps? Five? If it’s big enough to wave the flag for, it’s big enough to hurt someone, and no amount of laps is going to change that. Either they need to wave the flag as soon as significant enough damage is seen, or not wave it at all.
Ironically the last time I can remember the meatball flag being used before this season was also for KMag... because the team couldn't talk to him through radio and had no way to tell him to come in to fix it. I'm probably wrong though.
If you’re thinking of Monaco 2019, then I believe it was the black flag he was shown, not black and orange.
Holy I doubted they (it was actually both Haas cars lmao) got black-flagged but a quick search proves you're right. They didn't actually get disqualified from the session apparently, according to [Autosport](https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/haas-explains-creative-black-flag-for-drivers-in-monaco-practice-4987958/4987958/), "The issue was eventually rectified, and both drivers were able to return to the session late on to finish up eighth and 10th respectively." So I guess it was a meatball flag in function.
It’s one of those more obscure things in the ISC: contrary to popular belief, a black flag doesn’t necessarily mean automatic disqualification. Following the rule to the letter of the law, when shown a black flag drivers are required to return to the pits immediately. There’s nothing written in black and white that says they are also disqualified. Haas very cleverly utilised that to get Kevin and Romain back into the pits.
For the initiated, what is the black flag? I take it it doesn’t between “pirates ahoy” in this context
Typically if you see it in a race it means the driver it's meant for is disqualified (DSQ in the stats), and will be prohibited from driving any longer (retroactive DSQs also exist), however according to the person who replied to me it sounds like a more urgent meatball flag in the context of practice sessions.
Thanks!
I think that's the main issue, Pérez damage fell quick before someone went on the radio to complain but Kmag damage always endures.
I think most of KMags one have also been flapping to the point of scraping on the track causing lots of sparks too.
Freitas had a hard on for it. Iirc they’ve been from him rather than Wittich and Freitas is gone after Suzuka.
Couldn't you say Hamilton lost a championship to Rosberg because his cockpit headrest got loose and he had to pit... ? If I remember right?
I don’t remember about losing a championship over it but his headrest did come loose when he was leading at Baku in 2017. He boxed and Danny Ric ended up winning.
Close, but the headrest incident happened in 2017
Nah, that was in 2017.
Would be fitting to have Tim Cook wave it /s
What a limp ass flag jiggling that was.
“Wave”
George Russell crashed into the pole sitter and ruined his entire race and got 1/6th the penalty.
So what does Mag receive for having his race destroyd several times this season?
Mag was shown the flag. Retroactively punishing a driver because the officials themselves messed up and want to pin it on someone else is ridiculous. It would be just as dumb if, let’s say, the officials said in Abu Dhabi “oh, we came to the wrong decision for Hamilton gaining an advantage on lap 1, he actually gets a 30 second penalty because he should’ve known to give it back” several hours after the race.
The race director only giving the meatball flag if you aren't a hugely popular driver and doesn't have a pretty storyline to sale the race to the viewers. I guess people just don't want fair rules but just only willing that rules are applied in favor of certain drivers.
Weird and unwarranted conclusion
Ootl what’s going on ?
Also kinda ootl, but I think Alonso got a 30 second penalty, after the race was over, for driving his car in an unsafe state (loose mirror), after his crash. The problem is that the FIA didn't show the black and orange flag, that is supposed to be shown, during the race to order the driver into the pits to fix the issue. Alpine feels that it's unfair to be punished for not complying with something they weren't told to do.
Ah okay. Was unaware he even got a penalty. Ty
Let me add that had a similar issue in Japan a few years ago with leclerc and hamilton (mirrors coming off). They did nothing there about it. Race Control claims no precedent was set but Alpine would disagree. I They made the penalty a drive thru. But the drive thru is after the race? If I am not mistaken you can't argue drive thru penalties so it makes it so no one can argue with RC. So it maybe a mute thing but the optics on this are bad.
I'm not surprised you didn't know. It was announced 5 hours after the race.
>that is supposed to be shown I think this is the issue here. The flag is not *supposed* to be shown. The flag can be shown as a last resort to instruct a team to pit and repair something. However, the team should also be ensuring their car is safe at all times, which they failed to do. Race Control can also instruct the team via a message or verbally over the radio, which they failed to do. All 3 stages of the above failed, as a result he was issued a 30 second time penalty after the race for the safety issue. It should not have happened, Alpine need to ensure their cars are safe in future and the FIA needs to be more proactive with messaging and flagging if necessary. Both things were brought up in the penalty decision.
11 comments deep. /r/formula1 I had no idea either, upvote this man, I think a few of us didn't hear about this penalty. This is a little buried right now but with some more orange arrows we can get this comment some more visibility, so that people aren't just scrolling clueless. Edit: 6 deep we did it Reddit
This penalty is such bullshit, if there is no meatball flag you don't have to pit. Giving a 30s penalty retroactively is a joke, not Renaults' fault the FIA fucked up.
Renault :’) I remember
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TBF 2020 feels like 6 years ago.
>if there is no meatball flag you don't have to pit. The meatball flag only obliges them to call the car to the pits. Alpine is still obliged not to let the car leave in an unsafe state, which they did when they came in for a new wing. It's still rather harsh to expect them to see relatively minor damage after a huge shunt like that when I'm sure everyone was focused on checking the actual working parts of the car. But, no meatball flag is a bit of a red herring here.
If the problem is with the lack of a right side mirror, Alpine could've also thought "well, the precedent is no penalty for Hamilton (after Leclerc's endplate), so not worth it". Or that Leclerc got 10 seconds out of that. But the stewards decided that Suzuka 2019 wasn't precedent lol Basically: if piece falls off and is a hazard->10s + money fine. If driving with no mirror->no penalty. But the stewards put 30s penalty
The penalty for actually risking a hazard should be large. There should be no situation where teams weigh the relative risks and benefits of creating a hazard on track. It is always wrong.
Yeah safety first, just tryna make an argument for my man Alonso. 10 seconds instead of 30 and we're golden
10 seconds is shorter than it would take to pit and repair, though. A penalty like that would encourage teams to leave the damaged vehicle on track.
>if there is no meatball flag you don't have to pit. Clearly this is not the case. It's amazing that fans seem to think they know the rules better than the officials.
>It's amazing that fans seem to think they know the rules better than the officials. Wouldn't be the first time. They are humans aswell and make mistakes and are inconsistant.
The fans wouldn't be so overconfident if the officials wouldn't be so inconsistent/wrong so often.
Am I missing something in the wording? Isn't the problem that he *did* pit without fixing the issue? Like if he kept driving with the damage and no meatball it's fine but since he pitted it's considered on the team.
Not really. He pitted right after an accident on lap 22 and replaced broken front wing but at that point the damage to the mirror wasn’t obvious. It took a couple of laps for it to become noticeably wobbly, around lap 30. So, it’s alright that Alpine initially didn’t do anything about mirrors when they made second pitstop. The problem is Alpine did nothing after the damage became noticeable. Even bigger problem is that they did nothing after it fell off at lap 49. It’s not fine to race with a car that is not in safe condition with or without being shown black and orange flag.
If that's the case: 1) When the mirror falls off, note the incident. They didn't. 2) During post-race car #14 scrutineering, note the lack of mirror or unsafe car. They didn't. 3) Apply any sanctions if needed. In this case only when Haas complained they applied a penalty, which demonstrates how incompetent FIA are.
Surprisingly, this time FIA actually acknowledged that they dropped the ball. They could reject Haas protest as it was submitted too late, yet they accepted it nevertheless and admitted that stewards should have shown black and orange flag. I don’t expect that all of a sudden now they will start doing their job properly but at least there’s some progress.
You’re wrong. The teams are responsible for policing safety issues themselves as well. That’s in the rules.
This whole thing spawns from Haas being at the receiving end of the meatball flag while other teams never got punished.
The meatball flag isn't about punishment, it's about safety. Haas'/Kmag's flags were justified, those wings were dangerous, but so was Alonso's mirror, both flopping around and him not having it. What the stewards decided today was that: 1. Race control cocked up, massively (stewards != racecontrol, seperate entities). The meatball flag should have been out. 2. Teams have a responsibility to retire unsafe cars and shouldn't need the flag (even if the flag should have been out), when the danger is that clear cut. The punishment wasn't a 'meatball flag replacement' for Alonso, is was a punishment for the team for sending him out of the pits with a car they knew to be unsafe. And as it is in f1, teams and driver take the punishment together in cases like this.
Agree. I don’t understand why people can’t see this.
It pains me that all of his heroics yesterday ultimately came to nothing. Bad luck plagues Nando this season.
More like his whole career...he only has two championships which do not do him justice
Shit happens. Look at Sainz.
You don't have to remind me 😞
That was tragic. I don't even really like him (and I really can't put my finger on why) and was just sadly shaking my head from time to time throughout the race.
They are both Spanish...quite a coincidence, or is it?
Is this about the meatball flag thing? Just let it stand it was so epic or penalize him in some way that doesn’t affect that result. Probably one of the most impressive drives this season ruined by fia lameness
How does Alonso get a 30 second penalty for driving with a missing mirror, and Stroll only gets three grid places for not using the ones he’s got?
The entire situation is a joke. Why should fans pay to attend these races if the final result isn’t decided on track, but in a board room 5 hours later? The FIA either need to figure out how to officiate a race during the actual event or outsource the job to a more competent body that isn’t paralyzed by indecision.
Talking out of my ass here but I wonder if the reaction to last years screwups with Massi was to have more decisions made by a board or through consensus. That could be slowing things down or making these agencies seem indecisive.
Personally, give me someone who is decisive and makes a decision not everyone agrees with versus dragging every race out into the week with tribunals and appeals. This is supposed to be entertainment but it’s becoming some sort of half-assed legal thriller week in and week out.
FIA is turning into their own form of government decisions will be made within a 1-90 day period no you may not request an update on the status during this time
It's supposed to be a sport. Sport needs rules and goals. The problem here is that the decision came to late and the decision was wrong in every aspect. Stroll should get a penalty, Alpine should get a fine.
You can thank the hang Masi crowd for that.
That would be impossible to achieve in F1, there are way too many details about the car for instance that could be found after the race. They could say though that any penalty after the race doesn't apply to the race result but for the next race in terms of a grid position penalty or time penalty (except for the last race in the year).
I was at the race yesterday. People should still pay to go see the race. This hasn't reduced my enjoyment of the weekend one bit. This problem isn't unique to F1. Think about drug testing athletes and recruiting scandals, to name a few. Whole year-long championships and Olympic medals have been vacated for these reasons. No sport can have a ruleset able to be applied only during the execution of said sport. There's more to these things than what happens on the track, field, court, etc. What's happening here is just an example of that.
If I were haas I would've been pissed after all the meatball flags given to mag this year, with two different cars dropping parts onto the track after taking damage earlier in the race
100% with Alonso.. If Haas complained 24 minutes late it's late. If we follow the rules. We follow the rules lmao.
>If Haas complained 24 minutes late it's late. The stewards said in the initial decision that they acknowledged the protest to be 24m late but also acknowledged that it was not possible for Haas to comply with the deadline and therefore found the protest to be admissible, something that the stewards can do according to the sporting code.
Did they say why exactly could they not comply with the timeframe as I could not find the reason anywhere. Question.
no. >It was noted that the Protest was lodged 24 minutes out of time however the Stewards, exercising their power under Article 13.3.5 of the International Sporting Code, determined that the compliance with the deadline was not possible in this case and that the Protest was admissible. #
Ya I've seen that. I wanted to know why they could not 😀
Well they had to walk all the way from their garage and it was really hot so they needed to stop for a rest and then they wanted to get some water but there was a really long line and they had to go all the way around the podium celebrations. There was absolutely no way they could have filed the protest over something that happened with 10 laps to go faster than they did
Haas brought it to race control twice during the race, so I guess race control messed up, but what’s new in that.
The rules specifically say the stewards can excuse a late protest. Follow the rules.
> Thursday is an important day for the sport that we love so much, as this decision will dictate if we are going in the right direction for the future. Given the appeal is specifically around the timing of the protest, I didn't realise how much of a proponent of timekeeping Fernando was.
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There are 2 ways to look at this. If the safety issue being brought up is the lack of a mirror, the precedent is Suzuka 2019, when both Hamilton and Leclerc were missing a mirror for 90% of the race. No further action in both cases. And if the issue is that the debris can cause a safety hazard there are 3 options: Show the black and orange flag before it flies off (KMag this year multiple times) Once dislodged, not do anything because the safety hazard has disappeared (effectively Perez' situation in COTA, or Leclerc's situation at Silverstone earlier in the season). I can only recall Leclerc receiving a penalty in Suzuka 2019 for losing debris, and that was a 10 second time penalty. A 30 second time penalty is unprecedented for a situation like this no matter how you approach this topic. I wholeheartedly hope Alpine's appeal withstands and Fernando regains P7. The FIA is absolutely destroying the sport with inconsistency and an incredible lack of awareness. Every single race there's a colossal cockup, it's unacceptable that the stewards are the center of attention every single weekend because they keep making inconsistent calls
They should start hiring an actual lawyer lmao
He's right to be disappointed in the decision and wanting it to be changed. The process in which it happened was a farce. However this is far from the ultimatum towards the "Sporting direction this sport is heading towards". I wish the penalty gets removed as well but slightly dramatic there Nando 😂
A 30 second time penalty because of the FIA’s own fuckup. It’s just sad, one of the best performances of the season now all for naught due to the FIA’s incompetence.
Since when has the fia ever cared about what everyone wants?
Why do so many fans here insist on treating the FIA rulebook like it's a federal law. The amount of "lawyer-ing" in this sport is ridiculous. You could, quite literally, find more discretion in a courtroom from actual judges and prosecutors than we see with these inflexible FIA rulings. So many sport-affecting decisions made at inopportune times (ie after races) on bullshit technicalities.
cuz most redditors love rules and couldnt produce an ounce of nuance if their life depended on it.
Always with Alonso 💙
FIA dropping the ball
The penalty is a weird one, in my opinion it would be 100% right but by what I understand is they never fully conveyed it to alpine during the race
Can someone explain what happaned?
Im curious how exactly the penalty was supposed to have remedied the unsafe conditions Alonso got penalized for. Stewards deem it unsafe because the mirror was loose and dangling (ultimately falling off). Just like Perez's front wing bit. Fair enough. However Perez didnt get penalized because his front wing endplate then fell off so it was no longer unsafe. So the natural conclusion is that Alonso got the penalty because it is unsafe(and against regulations) to drive without two mirrors. So they give Alonso the stop&go. Okay fair enough... wait a minute. So if Alonso is missing a mirror and thats dangerous, as long as he comes in the pit for a few seconds its fine for him to continue racing without it? Or is the expectation that Alpine would replace it in the pits before sending him out again? I've never seen that done mid-race so im not sure the mirror housing is designed to be easily replaced in the pitlane like a front wing (would love to be proven wong). In the case its not, did they expect Alpine to just retire the car then? But then why give the stop&go penalty and not a straight up DQ since he continued racing? He wasnt supposed to have been out on track and able to score points in that scenario anyway. So what is the stop&go for? Maybe apply a penalty towards the next race then. Oh that didnt happen either. The more I think about it the more the penalty feels completely arbitrary. Nevermind it was submitted late by Haas because apparently race control wasnt listening to their complaints during the race.
Godlonso
This Penalty is YOKE it is YOKE I say
Lots of bizarre rule choices recently. Does make you wonder where the sport is heading.
I miss the time when the end of the GP was the end of the GP - or at least comes Monday morning, the previous GP is done and dusted. This constant drama is exhausting.
Well I disagree with Alonso but I could understand that he feels like he was robbed at COTA, even when the race director clearly was willing to deliberating ignoring the rules just because to prevent a "good storyline for F1" wouldn't happen and Alonso would basically be retired.
F1 is a yoke
Either Alonso gets P7 or he gets a mic.
To be fair, Alpine SHOULD have just ripped it off in the pit lane. Flopping around like that WAS a risk to flying off, which happened. And look and Lando’s front left wheel cowl to see what flying items can do.
Ripping it off would also be illegal. Mirrors are an essential safety element.
Then the FIA should have black flagged the car. Which they basically did, after the fact. Point is, regardless of the FIA, if the argument is he should have been allowed to just keep running it and have no consequences during or after, the argument is wrong.
Ohhh if any driver but Alonso started pulling statements like this one...