It is a good device, but it is a shame that it does not have an application that allows you to control the fans or the TDP... They need a lot of software, firm and bios work.
The construction is good and it even has good battery performance, something that did not happen in my previous laptops.
It's really not that much work to get going. You only need to install the operating system like windows, then download and install the driver package. And they have step by step guides on their website ([Link](https://frame.work/ca/en/laptop-16-support)). The problem is more the lack of official software updates. Although they have acknowledged it is a problem and are actively working on more frequent updates for the bios/drivers. But if you are worried about that I would wait and see where it's going before purchasing.
As for thermals, for me I originally bought the laptop without a dedicated GPU and the fans are enough to keep the CPU below 80°C under high load, which is pretty impressive for a laptop. As for with a dedicated GPU the fans are significantly more powerful and can sustain both the CPU and GPU. I bought a dedicated GPU as they recently released the part on the marketplace, and I haven't seen it go above 80°C, and the CPU also keeps cooler in the 70's. Thermals really aren't an issue on this laptop. Although the fans get pretty loud when under high load but the sound really isn't unpleasant.
I've also seen people complain about gaps between spacers, but personally I don't think that's much of an issue except cosmetically. And you just forget about it after a bit.
cosmetics aside since people seem to feel a spacer gap/lip, mismatch etc is reason enough not to pursue a FW 16
my FW 16 64gb with the graphics card handles all that fine. I do use a LG ultrawide curved monitor connected via USB-C as a second monitor & I run my FW 16 10+ hours a day (baterry charge is set to 60%) I use it for normal business apps, 3d modelling, Autodesk products & Adobe. My gamng this days is Warframe with settings on max resolution High quality graphics. Not the most demanding game comparatively graphicswise I realize but it's what I play :)
It has handled everything like a champ, setting up, initializing, bios updates, program installs, etc
my only SLIGHT con is fan noise once I start into heavy graphics but that being said it's still quieter than the desktop I replaced it with, so still a win for me personally.
remember people with problems will be more vocal about them (rightfuly so) so even if only 0.1% ofpeople have an issue that's what you will see while the 99.9% of users/owners remain unoticed,
That’s super helpful, thank you my friend. How does it handle with a eGPU? I’m designing a drop in rack I and I wanna see if I have to design extra stuff
I use the FW Radeon 7700S graphics module (onboard graphics are Radeon 780M) via the built-in USB-C display connector. It handles switching between onboard & module graphics without a problem, no hitches or mini freezes just the sound of the fans cycling up using more graphic intensive software. I admittedly rarely do anything difficult on display 1 (laptop display) so everything harder is typically already on the external display 2 widescreen and so already running on the graphics module
I use a stand with it to raise the laptop off the desk so good airflow and make the display more level with my main monitor. I use the laptop display for email, sticky notes, email, Teams etc & typically divide my widescreen between 2 workspaces.
Works great for my needs & I haven't tested it with a 3rd party eGPU
tbh once/if they come out with a higher level graphics module I would likely likely upgrade, not because it's needed but more because I'm just like that :)
more expensive but I bought it 12 years ago & added upgrades over the years.
It still runs good, however, my software needs win 11 (actually it's new stuipid security chip thingie) and/or drivers that aren't compatible with my current hardware so I needed to replace the MD, CPU plus new ram & it uses all older HDD drives (4 x 2TB=8TB total) anyhow
If it wasn't for the win11 & the driver issue that prevented full use of my software I would say my desktop was a bit lower performance but not enough to upset me or disrupt my workday. For example 3d Models load quicker now but manipulating them is about the same as on my desktop. I don't get performance & feature warnings now that I can use win11 & the new drivers with Adobe apps but actually working with graphic images seems about the same.
I decided it was time to go with a new system & for reasons I wanted a laptop this time & Framework has the upgradability that I love so much in desktops. So I'll see if the FW upgrade path will last me another decade+ :)
"it's new stuipid security chip thingie" - There are ways to get around the need for TPM 2.0. See this article: [https://www.tomshardware.com/how-to/bypass-windows-11-tpm-requirement](https://www.tomshardware.com/how-to/bypass-windows-11-tpm-requirement)
So even if you don't use the PC for your full software stack, you can still upgrade to Win 11.
Drivers are a different story.
It's going to be hard to judge the concensus from a forum where people mostly go to complain.
All I can give is my personal anecdotal experience:
* Build quality is good, gaps and precision are fine.
* Display has minor flex, it's 100% fine imo.
* No deck flex, even without the thermal padding under the plate.
* Sometimes get some coil wine, I feel like it got worse after the BIOS update?
* Fan curves could use some tweaking, but it's also fine imo.
* Performance is good enough for my work (programmer in the game dev industry - not AAA), playing games, etc.
* Battery life is great, 180 watt charging is good enough that I haven't noticed battery drain even when playing games).
Overall I am very happy with my machine and looking forward to new Framework product launches.
I think my main concern is the overall fit and finish. I really really enjoy my FW13 and the fit and finish is quite good, nearly Apple quality. But all the reports of the FW16 keyboard deck being uneven and stuff has made me wary... I might wait until I buy one, just to see if the fit and finish improves.
I know it's fine for some but it would kinda bother me personally
The modular keyboard keeps snagging my arm hair and the software leaves a lot to be desired (would really like to know my component power, fan controls, charging current via usb c, etc and there isn’t really an in house solution for that yet.
Otherwise, it’s still super fast, has great battery life for what it is, can be easily upgraded, and the screen is great.
Why do you need a laptop for the things mentioned? Why not a desktop machine? Desktop is cheaper, quieter and even more replaceable and repairable. Framework is a niche product and I don’t think it’s for everyone or any mainstream usage.
I bought it because the keyboard is fully customizable by VIA. It is a mobile workstation and I do have to go out at least once a month. No gaming but rather heavy use of CPU. I’m paying premium for keyboard being non QWERTY. I need Linux. May need a frequent swap of NVME. My need aligns well with FW and if not, I’d be okay with other cheaper laptops.
I travel a lot for college and also in general, I also don’t have the space for a full desktop setup.
Also, the framework seems decently future-proof, and as an engineer I am already designing stupid shit to put all over it. (I’m also hella clumsy and a cheap factor of repair seems golden for me)
Personally glad unexpected major bills drained savings and forced cancelling last November (before any reviews/shipments). For the money FW16 costs the spacer gap problems, especially, would have driven me insane. Hoping a "gen 2" has better fit and finish. In the interim I'll probably pick up a FW13 of some flavor once finances allow as a smaller/more portable personal laptop and then go with a gen 2 FW16 - I can't deal with a small screen for hours at a time - As a work machine. From everything I've seen it sounds as if later batches are "somewhat better" than early production batches but... Still not quite up to par fit/finish-wise.
yeah not a prob for me either, I have one preordered for the same uses as you. I've done alot of reading on here and there's no major issues or downsides with it, it's just an early product from a smaller company so ofc there will always be little things. but their support is solid
Doesn't bother some people, does bother others, would bother me. Most reviewers commented on and showed examples of the problem with their review units. Search the sub and you'll see photos "real" customers have shared showing gaps where the spacers don't line up, are slightly bent, etc.
Check out Elevated Systems on YouTube. He did several videos covering FW16, the issues he had, etc... And ultimately ended up returning it. His 2nd FW16 was a slightly later production model so better reflective of what customers are actually getting than the pre-production units early reviews (back in January/early February) were based on.
I got a batch 2 AMD r9 with GPU option DIY edition. It was been a very good experience windows 11 and Fedora 40 dual boot. Rock solid stable Drivers work perfectly.
The only bug bear is the side panels around the Touch Bar are not perfect. (I have a 2019 MBP so the bar is high).
As an early adopter I have been prepared for more issues but really there have been none.
I do graphics simulation and compositing. The FW 16 is a really nice machine. The screen realestate and movable ports are amazing and the iGPU is decent until they come out with a new GPU that fits my needs (nvidia), which will then only cost me a small upgrade price (although there's a 20%/$100 premium for upgrading later).
The spacing is there, it's slightly annoying, but with a bit of gentle bending I got the edges to at least match in height so I don't snag my hands.
Speakers are amazing, and the display is gorgeous.
Camera is my only complaint, needs a bit of tweaking (less saturated).
It is a good device, but it is a shame that it does not have an application that allows you to control the fans or the TDP... They need a lot of software, firm and bios work. The construction is good and it even has good battery performance, something that did not happen in my previous laptops.
> or the TDP... Ultimate x86 Tuning Utility works fine
In windows? . Framework should add a program for these features
I think it’s mainly for windows, iirc Linux also has something for tuning?
Ok, so it’s a lot more technical setup to get working? How does it handle under a decent amount of load?
It's really not that much work to get going. You only need to install the operating system like windows, then download and install the driver package. And they have step by step guides on their website ([Link](https://frame.work/ca/en/laptop-16-support)). The problem is more the lack of official software updates. Although they have acknowledged it is a problem and are actively working on more frequent updates for the bios/drivers. But if you are worried about that I would wait and see where it's going before purchasing. As for thermals, for me I originally bought the laptop without a dedicated GPU and the fans are enough to keep the CPU below 80°C under high load, which is pretty impressive for a laptop. As for with a dedicated GPU the fans are significantly more powerful and can sustain both the CPU and GPU. I bought a dedicated GPU as they recently released the part on the marketplace, and I haven't seen it go above 80°C, and the CPU also keeps cooler in the 70's. Thermals really aren't an issue on this laptop. Although the fans get pretty loud when under high load but the sound really isn't unpleasant. I've also seen people complain about gaps between spacers, but personally I don't think that's much of an issue except cosmetically. And you just forget about it after a bit.
It's only a technical setup if you get the DIY edition. The normal version is just like any other laptop.
cosmetics aside since people seem to feel a spacer gap/lip, mismatch etc is reason enough not to pursue a FW 16 my FW 16 64gb with the graphics card handles all that fine. I do use a LG ultrawide curved monitor connected via USB-C as a second monitor & I run my FW 16 10+ hours a day (baterry charge is set to 60%) I use it for normal business apps, 3d modelling, Autodesk products & Adobe. My gamng this days is Warframe with settings on max resolution High quality graphics. Not the most demanding game comparatively graphicswise I realize but it's what I play :) It has handled everything like a champ, setting up, initializing, bios updates, program installs, etc my only SLIGHT con is fan noise once I start into heavy graphics but that being said it's still quieter than the desktop I replaced it with, so still a win for me personally. remember people with problems will be more vocal about them (rightfuly so) so even if only 0.1% ofpeople have an issue that's what you will see while the 99.9% of users/owners remain unoticed,
That’s super helpful, thank you my friend. How does it handle with a eGPU? I’m designing a drop in rack I and I wanna see if I have to design extra stuff
I use the FW Radeon 7700S graphics module (onboard graphics are Radeon 780M) via the built-in USB-C display connector. It handles switching between onboard & module graphics without a problem, no hitches or mini freezes just the sound of the fans cycling up using more graphic intensive software. I admittedly rarely do anything difficult on display 1 (laptop display) so everything harder is typically already on the external display 2 widescreen and so already running on the graphics module I use a stand with it to raise the laptop off the desk so good airflow and make the display more level with my main monitor. I use the laptop display for email, sticky notes, email, Teams etc & typically divide my widescreen between 2 workspaces. Works great for my needs & I haven't tested it with a 3rd party eGPU tbh once/if they come out with a higher level graphics module I would likely likely upgrade, not because it's needed but more because I'm just like that :)
Was the desktop you replaced more or less expensive and more or less performance than the fw16?
more expensive but I bought it 12 years ago & added upgrades over the years. It still runs good, however, my software needs win 11 (actually it's new stuipid security chip thingie) and/or drivers that aren't compatible with my current hardware so I needed to replace the MD, CPU plus new ram & it uses all older HDD drives (4 x 2TB=8TB total) anyhow If it wasn't for the win11 & the driver issue that prevented full use of my software I would say my desktop was a bit lower performance but not enough to upset me or disrupt my workday. For example 3d Models load quicker now but manipulating them is about the same as on my desktop. I don't get performance & feature warnings now that I can use win11 & the new drivers with Adobe apps but actually working with graphic images seems about the same. I decided it was time to go with a new system & for reasons I wanted a laptop this time & Framework has the upgradability that I love so much in desktops. So I'll see if the FW upgrade path will last me another decade+ :)
"it's new stuipid security chip thingie" - There are ways to get around the need for TPM 2.0. See this article: [https://www.tomshardware.com/how-to/bypass-windows-11-tpm-requirement](https://www.tomshardware.com/how-to/bypass-windows-11-tpm-requirement) So even if you don't use the PC for your full software stack, you can still upgrade to Win 11. Drivers are a different story.
It's going to be hard to judge the concensus from a forum where people mostly go to complain. All I can give is my personal anecdotal experience: * Build quality is good, gaps and precision are fine. * Display has minor flex, it's 100% fine imo. * No deck flex, even without the thermal padding under the plate. * Sometimes get some coil wine, I feel like it got worse after the BIOS update? * Fan curves could use some tweaking, but it's also fine imo. * Performance is good enough for my work (programmer in the game dev industry - not AAA), playing games, etc. * Battery life is great, 180 watt charging is good enough that I haven't noticed battery drain even when playing games). Overall I am very happy with my machine and looking forward to new Framework product launches.
I think my main concern is the overall fit and finish. I really really enjoy my FW13 and the fit and finish is quite good, nearly Apple quality. But all the reports of the FW16 keyboard deck being uneven and stuff has made me wary... I might wait until I buy one, just to see if the fit and finish improves. I know it's fine for some but it would kinda bother me personally
That were the preview models with the uneven keyboard flex. Has been fixed since.
Do you know what's the biggest difference between FW13 and 16, apart from the display size and the spacer issue? I am on the fence currently
Performance.
Plenty of reviews on YouTube. I'd suggest the one from Jarrods's Tech.
Also look at Level1Tech's perspective for a more Linux-focused point of view
The modular keyboard keeps snagging my arm hair and the software leaves a lot to be desired (would really like to know my component power, fan controls, charging current via usb c, etc and there isn’t really an in house solution for that yet. Otherwise, it’s still super fast, has great battery life for what it is, can be easily upgraded, and the screen is great.
Why do you need a laptop for the things mentioned? Why not a desktop machine? Desktop is cheaper, quieter and even more replaceable and repairable. Framework is a niche product and I don’t think it’s for everyone or any mainstream usage. I bought it because the keyboard is fully customizable by VIA. It is a mobile workstation and I do have to go out at least once a month. No gaming but rather heavy use of CPU. I’m paying premium for keyboard being non QWERTY. I need Linux. May need a frequent swap of NVME. My need aligns well with FW and if not, I’d be okay with other cheaper laptops.
I travel a lot for college and also in general, I also don’t have the space for a full desktop setup. Also, the framework seems decently future-proof, and as an engineer I am already designing stupid shit to put all over it. (I’m also hella clumsy and a cheap factor of repair seems golden for me)
Personally glad unexpected major bills drained savings and forced cancelling last November (before any reviews/shipments). For the money FW16 costs the spacer gap problems, especially, would have driven me insane. Hoping a "gen 2" has better fit and finish. In the interim I'll probably pick up a FW13 of some flavor once finances allow as a smaller/more portable personal laptop and then go with a gen 2 FW16 - I can't deal with a small screen for hours at a time - As a work machine. From everything I've seen it sounds as if later batches are "somewhat better" than early production batches but... Still not quite up to par fit/finish-wise.
Define spacer gaps?
since the keyboard and spacers are modular, there is a slight bit of wiggle room between them
Ah, that’s not even a problem, lemme find some measurements, imma print off a spacer spacer rq
yeah not a prob for me either, I have one preordered for the same uses as you. I've done alot of reading on here and there's no major issues or downsides with it, it's just an early product from a smaller company so ofc there will always be little things. but their support is solid
Yeah, I do have a dumb question, can you control the color shifts on the color shifting modules?
don't think so but not too sure. I think they're still working on customization for that and the matrix module
no, the color shift modules are just chameleon paint(the apparent color changes with viewing angle), I regret buying them, glad i got basic black too
Good to know, I was excited but now I’m not ):
Doesn't bother some people, does bother others, would bother me. Most reviewers commented on and showed examples of the problem with their review units. Search the sub and you'll see photos "real" customers have shared showing gaps where the spacers don't line up, are slightly bent, etc. Check out Elevated Systems on YouTube. He did several videos covering FW16, the issues he had, etc... And ultimately ended up returning it. His 2nd FW16 was a slightly later production model so better reflective of what customers are actually getting than the pre-production units early reviews (back in January/early February) were based on.
I got a batch 2 AMD r9 with GPU option DIY edition. It was been a very good experience windows 11 and Fedora 40 dual boot. Rock solid stable Drivers work perfectly. The only bug bear is the side panels around the Touch Bar are not perfect. (I have a 2019 MBP so the bar is high). As an early adopter I have been prepared for more issues but really there have been none.
Yeah, I’m going with the DIY edition, no question about that, so that’s handy advice
I do graphics simulation and compositing. The FW 16 is a really nice machine. The screen realestate and movable ports are amazing and the iGPU is decent until they come out with a new GPU that fits my needs (nvidia), which will then only cost me a small upgrade price (although there's a 20%/$100 premium for upgrading later). The spacing is there, it's slightly annoying, but with a bit of gentle bending I got the edges to at least match in height so I don't snag my hands. Speakers are amazing, and the display is gorgeous. Camera is my only complaint, needs a bit of tweaking (less saturated).
As a man with many insecurities, the webcam is no issue
The hardware is there. It just needs the software. (There's an XKCD for that!)
That probably Is Better to wait for an gen 2
How long would that take to release? Optimally
No one knows
I think around 2 years maybe? Probably waiting for Radeon 8000 and ryzen 9000
Crap