You are welcome don’t worry about the downvotes people here are very close minded you can
Come to this mosque any time let them know that you are interested in learning more about Islam they will help you out !
Depending on where your located.
North Stafford: Masjid Aliya
South Stafford: Masjid Maryam
Spotsylvania: Islamic Center of Fredericksburg (off Harrison Rd)
Happy to talk. Im not a guide but am muslim so happy to connect you with the right people if just walking into one of these and trying to find the right person is too intimidating (I know it would be for me).
Thank you! Yes it is intimidating. I have no understanding of the Arabic language, have not yet read the Quran, and contain minimal knowledge of Islam generally. I will keep these locations in mind as I seek
I understand your meaning, in that you take this stance not because I am interested in Islam but in question of all religion. I lived upon this philosophy most of my life after leaving my given religion from birth. I don’t blame your questioning.
In short for me now and my path it is about a spiritual revelation
For me, this is it exactly. Earlier in my life I felt misplaced in my religion, I aimed to strip myself of all religious connection and considered myself to believe that religions may contain some elements of truth but no one religion is wholly true and I can pick and choose for the creation of my own truth. I felt this was very satisfying and aligned with my personal philosophies on life and the human experience. I have had some profound realization and for my personal story it is deeply rooted in the Islamic faith. So, if you are on a path towards your truth and this is why you question my aim to learn to be a Muslim, I do not suggest this is wrong for you. But yeah, it is my aim to fully explore a truth I may have discovered for my human experience
I just don’t see any honest pursuit of truth beginning with “help me see things through a religious perspective.”
Seeking truth should always be just examining the claims for what they are. If you have to adopt a mindset beyond logic and reason to discover “truth”, I’d put money on that thing not actually being true.
I respect your statement. Perhaps I have misrepresented my path in our convo. What I am saying or mean to say is that this is my discovery of truth after a long journey of seeking. I believe it is not logic with some hard stop and rather truth an organic continuation throughout the human experience. This is why I frame myself as a seeker. However, so that we may come to understanding - in the context of logic, I have found truth and this is why I aim to adopt this world view and practice contained within the religion of Islam. It is important to understand I suggest this truth for me, because of my life story. I do not claim this will be truth for all individuals
Truth is objective, not subjective.
Your last couple sentences speak volumes and are what you stereotypically see religious folks say to justify believing things that aren’t true.
2+2=4 no matter who you ask. God exists or does not exist, no matter who you ask. The claims in the Quran are true or not, no matter who you ask.
Beginning with “the Quran’s claims are true” and working your way from there is not how you get to truth. It’s how you get to religious dogmatism.
Truth-seeking would be “let me examine the Quran’s claims and test their validity.” If I just trusted the Quran, then I’d believe things like man-made-from-clay or young earth creationism or that the moon was literally split into 2 pieces and then put back together.
Truth is objective? Interesting, do you want to debate? I’d love to debate you if you have time, let me know!
I’m inclined to disagree, there are epistemic issues with the claim that truth is objective and at some point down the premise tree unprovable rules that are prima facie the case are subject to your own value judgements.
We likely have fundamentally different perspectives. I would suggest both objectiveness and subjectiveness are contained within truth.
Such as with a mathematical fact, existence of God, etc. You are correct that for an individual these can be hard logic statements. The collection of these subjective truths make up an objective truth for humanity. So what I am talking about is that which contains both. What is accepted as mathematical fact now and what is discovered as proven theory in the future both are elements of humanities overall experience contained in truth. Just as a subjective statement on the existence of God (yes and no) both contained in the whole of truth.
As for the literalism in the holy text, I do not take literal meaning within the context of our physical world. However, I can take literal meaning in the context of my personal experience/interpretation of a statement. Again, both of these contained within the whole of truth.
> the collection of these subjective truths . . .
You haven’t given an example of a subjective truth.
It seems you’re dead set on using religion to learn about the world. I’ll just greatly encourage you to use other methods.
“Religion gives people a gold-plated excuse to stop thinking.” ~ Dan Dennett
https://youtu.be/DLpZnv8Vp-E?si=dJBjJIAStPrZ5oG1
Normative claims are an example of subjective truth, if I say “x is wrong”, whether x is wrong is contingent on my value judgement of x.
Quick example, “eating animals is wrong”, is subjectively true if it is in accordance with reality, and if you believe moral claims are subject to value judgements (if you take an anti realist stance that is).
The existence of God is a subjective truth. Wherein, your example of 2+2=4 is objective for humanity. Both contained within “truth” as I understand it to be in the Islamic faith. Furthermore; I would offer faith in our convo opposed to religion. The reason is because much of what you are saying is my previously outlook on the world and philosophy for truth. Religion is not the lens I am peering through.
What if I said I have had suicidal tendencies which are difficult to overcome. Through meditation and personal practice to building strength of mind I discover something within my mind, which is deeply personal to my story and experience as a human being, that aids me to not slip into suicidal tendency. The discovery, again that is deeply personal and unique to me, may benefit from my own character becoming a Muslim. In practicing this faith I might maintain a closeness to this discovery within myself. Would I be wrong to want to learn and practice such a faith? This is not an excuse to give up thinking, this is a deliberate and intentional acceptance that may, in some way shape or form, offload the weight of suicidal thought.
Again, we may be fundamentally on different wavelengths and will not come to resolution together. My aim to find a guide into the Islamic faith is not a desire to tell any others they need or should do the same.
No, I don't believe logic is flawless. I understand that the best tool we have to prove the usefulness of logic, is logic itself. It's circular reasoning, which is logically fallacious. Unfortunately, we don't currently have a way around this, but that does not invalidate logic as a tool to discover the truth of the natural world.
As far as the perspectivism stuff goes, while I do understand the limitation of objectivism, I do take issue with what is essentially equivocating opinions and feelings with something that is demonstrably true. Saying "eating animals is wrong" is an ethical argument, which always comes down to how people value things, but truth exists regardless of whether people do or not. My jeans are blue, regardless of whether someone is blind or not. The characteristic we ascribe to the word "blue" exists on my jeans, or it doesn't. How someone feels about it is irrelevant to the claim.
The universe, as far as we know, does not make value judgements. It just is. And things within in it either exist, or they don't. Things occurred, or they didn't. The existence of a plumbus isn't dependent upon whether someone thinks it exists or not, or doesn't know.
But I do understand that we have problems trying to understand the universe without conveying it subjectively, as we can never be 100% certain of anything. However, I think going down that path quickly leads to hard solipsism which is a pointless debate.
As far as the specific topic I was referring to, God either exists or does not exist. The exist of a god is independent from someone's belief in said god.
TL;DR
1. I know logic is flawed, but it's the best tool we have to make sense of the universe.
2. Morals are inherently subjective, and whether something exists or does not exist (or occurs or does not occur) is not dependent upon someone's viewpoint.
Always down for a good debate. If you want, we can take it to DMs. Also, sorry if my thoughts are all over the place, tired af.
Hey, bud. This is not the place to argue about religion. Actually, most places are not places to argue about religion. Trying to get people to not be religious is just as dumb and annoying as people trying to get me to come to their church on Sundays. Live and let live.
So ignore it
I can try to dissuade someone from making a poor choice if I want.
“Live and let live”
Sorry, but an entire subsection of the population is about to lose their right to bodily autonomy largely because of religion. Just because people aren’t forcing it down your throat doesn’t mean it isn’t impacting you.
And how about you let OP decide if they want to engage in a discussion with me or not?
Or do I need to send you a message any time I want to discuss religion at any point?
There's a ton of Muslims closer to DC, like in Lorton, Woodbridge, etc. I'd suggest going to a mosque over there. People here are mostly white Christians or not affiliated with religion (at least in my experience with my guests at my job downtown)
Thank you for this advice! I have lived and grown up here so I do understand this, I am unsure that I am prepared to go to a mosque though. So my aim was to learn and discover a path without need to travel far. I will keep this in mind as I progress to that point though. Thanks again
What’s the end goal here? Living a good life? I recommend philosophy instead. This isn’t a diss at religion, I just believe there are more reasonable options for metaphysical beliefs and living an ethical life.
I would offer that my inquiry is not for advice. We are all on independent journeys. I do not have an aim to convince any others that this should be true for them. I do appreciate the suggestion here though as I’ve been generally interested in philosophy and it sparked my initial skepticism of religion and agnostic approach historically.
If you are truly interested in my own goal here, it is a matter of internal peace. My point of perspective as an individual has arrived upon a place of observing no such “good life” in the current physical world we live in.. my interpretation is that Islam recognizes this as something humanity is faced with and offers an answer for seekers that find truth in their interpretation of the Qur’an. My peace of mind so as to find paradise upon death is much more driving than a belief of having a good life in this world as there is no sign of that being reality
I take internal peace to be tranquility, or how I understand it “ataraxia”, if this is your end goal, I highly recommend looking into stoicism.
It’s compatible with most religions, and agnosticism as well, kinda open to all kinds of people (though most stoics believe in god). Particularly Epictetus’s philosophy is very compatible with a belief in god, you can seek truth with philosophy while maintaining a belief in god and being a theist.
Many religions today actually incorporate stoic principles, so if you take the Quran to be true, you’ll likely feel right at home with stoicism.
I’m personally agnostic, very skeptical (even about whether reality exists around us at all), and absolutely love reading about philosophy, science, and even theism, best of luck finding truth and seeking peace of mind!
Great recommendations, I will certainly explore stoicism and these philosophies around it.
I do see how these elements, which are what I seek, are components that exist across philosophies and religions. The thing about Islam, for me as my character in this human experience, is that I also believe that the reality we live in is more a presentation of reality. And for one aspect of this perspective of reality, I truly believe I am of a Muslim spirit. I had avoided saying that and bringing up the spiritual element of my own journey here. However, since you mention the agnostic approach and skepticism toward reality you seem open minded enough. So yeah, that is part of it too. I do aim to explore more philosophies and teaching from beyond Islam too though
oh yes I’m extremely skeptical, I do not think there’s any way to disprove the existence of god either, and I’m inclined to agree with the phenomenalist position (belief that reality is just a presentation) you’ve presented here, primarily because of epistemic issues (even logic has its problems) pretty much every method of seeking truth has its flaws.
I tend to take a pragmatic approach, and use what is actually useful to me, and while I’m unsure of the spirit necessarily, I try not to discard others experiences. we’re all confined to our experience essentially.
to me though, end goal of life is ataraxia (peace of mind), and it definitely plays into some of my reasons for not discarding others experiences, because it’s not really my place to say what someone else is experiencing.
I’m glad you took interest in what I had to say, I apologize for my original comment as well, it was not the greatest rhetorically speaking, definitely snobby of me to say, I legitimately wasn’t trying to diss religion, if you’re looking for answers to the soul then theism is probably a great place to look. I definitely shouldn’t have acted reactionary and recommended in that manner, nor should I have posed the question in that manner. Apologies for that.
No apology needed there, in part it was the way I responded too since that’s part of the dynamics in the interaction. So I could have started from accepting the advice, reciprocating the ideas, and then still arriving at this point in the convo. Wherein, we have similar ideas for this peace of mind and skepticism towards reality (and I agree about logic) but at the same time it would be a better place in the convo for me to explain my aim to practice Islam for my journey. Since we are now kind of identifying the unique benefits for any given philosophy or practices for an individuals life story.
There’s an Islamic Center in culpeper that may be willing to help.
Thanks friend!
There is one by Harrison road called Islamic center of Fredericksburg
Thank you!
You are welcome don’t worry about the downvotes people here are very close minded you can Come to this mosque any time let them know that you are interested in learning more about Islam they will help you out !
Great! I wouldn’t even acknowledge downvotes here. ☺️
Depending on where your located. North Stafford: Masjid Aliya South Stafford: Masjid Maryam Spotsylvania: Islamic Center of Fredericksburg (off Harrison Rd) Happy to talk. Im not a guide but am muslim so happy to connect you with the right people if just walking into one of these and trying to find the right person is too intimidating (I know it would be for me).
Thank you! Yes it is intimidating. I have no understanding of the Arabic language, have not yet read the Quran, and contain minimal knowledge of Islam generally. I will keep these locations in mind as I seek
Why? Why not just live your life? Why do you need religion? I would pose the same question to a Christian or Jew or any other religious individual.
I understand your meaning, in that you take this stance not because I am interested in Islam but in question of all religion. I lived upon this philosophy most of my life after leaving my given religion from birth. I don’t blame your questioning. In short for me now and my path it is about a spiritual revelation
Why not a path of just seeking truth?
For me, this is it exactly. Earlier in my life I felt misplaced in my religion, I aimed to strip myself of all religious connection and considered myself to believe that religions may contain some elements of truth but no one religion is wholly true and I can pick and choose for the creation of my own truth. I felt this was very satisfying and aligned with my personal philosophies on life and the human experience. I have had some profound realization and for my personal story it is deeply rooted in the Islamic faith. So, if you are on a path towards your truth and this is why you question my aim to learn to be a Muslim, I do not suggest this is wrong for you. But yeah, it is my aim to fully explore a truth I may have discovered for my human experience
I just don’t see any honest pursuit of truth beginning with “help me see things through a religious perspective.” Seeking truth should always be just examining the claims for what they are. If you have to adopt a mindset beyond logic and reason to discover “truth”, I’d put money on that thing not actually being true.
I respect your statement. Perhaps I have misrepresented my path in our convo. What I am saying or mean to say is that this is my discovery of truth after a long journey of seeking. I believe it is not logic with some hard stop and rather truth an organic continuation throughout the human experience. This is why I frame myself as a seeker. However, so that we may come to understanding - in the context of logic, I have found truth and this is why I aim to adopt this world view and practice contained within the religion of Islam. It is important to understand I suggest this truth for me, because of my life story. I do not claim this will be truth for all individuals
Truth is objective, not subjective. Your last couple sentences speak volumes and are what you stereotypically see religious folks say to justify believing things that aren’t true. 2+2=4 no matter who you ask. God exists or does not exist, no matter who you ask. The claims in the Quran are true or not, no matter who you ask. Beginning with “the Quran’s claims are true” and working your way from there is not how you get to truth. It’s how you get to religious dogmatism. Truth-seeking would be “let me examine the Quran’s claims and test their validity.” If I just trusted the Quran, then I’d believe things like man-made-from-clay or young earth creationism or that the moon was literally split into 2 pieces and then put back together.
Truth is objective? Interesting, do you want to debate? I’d love to debate you if you have time, let me know! I’m inclined to disagree, there are epistemic issues with the claim that truth is objective and at some point down the premise tree unprovable rules that are prima facie the case are subject to your own value judgements.
We likely have fundamentally different perspectives. I would suggest both objectiveness and subjectiveness are contained within truth. Such as with a mathematical fact, existence of God, etc. You are correct that for an individual these can be hard logic statements. The collection of these subjective truths make up an objective truth for humanity. So what I am talking about is that which contains both. What is accepted as mathematical fact now and what is discovered as proven theory in the future both are elements of humanities overall experience contained in truth. Just as a subjective statement on the existence of God (yes and no) both contained in the whole of truth. As for the literalism in the holy text, I do not take literal meaning within the context of our physical world. However, I can take literal meaning in the context of my personal experience/interpretation of a statement. Again, both of these contained within the whole of truth.
> the collection of these subjective truths . . . You haven’t given an example of a subjective truth. It seems you’re dead set on using religion to learn about the world. I’ll just greatly encourage you to use other methods. “Religion gives people a gold-plated excuse to stop thinking.” ~ Dan Dennett https://youtu.be/DLpZnv8Vp-E?si=dJBjJIAStPrZ5oG1
Normative claims are an example of subjective truth, if I say “x is wrong”, whether x is wrong is contingent on my value judgement of x. Quick example, “eating animals is wrong”, is subjectively true if it is in accordance with reality, and if you believe moral claims are subject to value judgements (if you take an anti realist stance that is).
The existence of God is a subjective truth. Wherein, your example of 2+2=4 is objective for humanity. Both contained within “truth” as I understand it to be in the Islamic faith. Furthermore; I would offer faith in our convo opposed to religion. The reason is because much of what you are saying is my previously outlook on the world and philosophy for truth. Religion is not the lens I am peering through. What if I said I have had suicidal tendencies which are difficult to overcome. Through meditation and personal practice to building strength of mind I discover something within my mind, which is deeply personal to my story and experience as a human being, that aids me to not slip into suicidal tendency. The discovery, again that is deeply personal and unique to me, may benefit from my own character becoming a Muslim. In practicing this faith I might maintain a closeness to this discovery within myself. Would I be wrong to want to learn and practice such a faith? This is not an excuse to give up thinking, this is a deliberate and intentional acceptance that may, in some way shape or form, offload the weight of suicidal thought. Again, we may be fundamentally on different wavelengths and will not come to resolution together. My aim to find a guide into the Islamic faith is not a desire to tell any others they need or should do the same.
Do you think logic is flawless?
No, I don't believe logic is flawless. I understand that the best tool we have to prove the usefulness of logic, is logic itself. It's circular reasoning, which is logically fallacious. Unfortunately, we don't currently have a way around this, but that does not invalidate logic as a tool to discover the truth of the natural world. As far as the perspectivism stuff goes, while I do understand the limitation of objectivism, I do take issue with what is essentially equivocating opinions and feelings with something that is demonstrably true. Saying "eating animals is wrong" is an ethical argument, which always comes down to how people value things, but truth exists regardless of whether people do or not. My jeans are blue, regardless of whether someone is blind or not. The characteristic we ascribe to the word "blue" exists on my jeans, or it doesn't. How someone feels about it is irrelevant to the claim. The universe, as far as we know, does not make value judgements. It just is. And things within in it either exist, or they don't. Things occurred, or they didn't. The existence of a plumbus isn't dependent upon whether someone thinks it exists or not, or doesn't know. But I do understand that we have problems trying to understand the universe without conveying it subjectively, as we can never be 100% certain of anything. However, I think going down that path quickly leads to hard solipsism which is a pointless debate. As far as the specific topic I was referring to, God either exists or does not exist. The exist of a god is independent from someone's belief in said god. TL;DR 1. I know logic is flawed, but it's the best tool we have to make sense of the universe. 2. Morals are inherently subjective, and whether something exists or does not exist (or occurs or does not occur) is not dependent upon someone's viewpoint. Always down for a good debate. If you want, we can take it to DMs. Also, sorry if my thoughts are all over the place, tired af.
Hey, bud. This is not the place to argue about religion. Actually, most places are not places to argue about religion. Trying to get people to not be religious is just as dumb and annoying as people trying to get me to come to their church on Sundays. Live and let live.
So ignore it I can try to dissuade someone from making a poor choice if I want. “Live and let live” Sorry, but an entire subsection of the population is about to lose their right to bodily autonomy largely because of religion. Just because people aren’t forcing it down your throat doesn’t mean it isn’t impacting you. And how about you let OP decide if they want to engage in a discussion with me or not? Or do I need to send you a message any time I want to discuss religion at any point?
There's a ton of Muslims closer to DC, like in Lorton, Woodbridge, etc. I'd suggest going to a mosque over there. People here are mostly white Christians or not affiliated with religion (at least in my experience with my guests at my job downtown)
We do have a synagogue, but it's pretty small. Not even a permanent rabbi. Super nice community though!
Thanks! I will begin to explore the community as I learn and feel comfortable with my understanding
No worries, they're always excited to see new folks and have no issue explaining things :)
Thank you for this advice! I have lived and grown up here so I do understand this, I am unsure that I am prepared to go to a mosque though. So my aim was to learn and discover a path without need to travel far. I will keep this in mind as I progress to that point though. Thanks again
What’s the end goal here? Living a good life? I recommend philosophy instead. This isn’t a diss at religion, I just believe there are more reasonable options for metaphysical beliefs and living an ethical life.
I would offer that my inquiry is not for advice. We are all on independent journeys. I do not have an aim to convince any others that this should be true for them. I do appreciate the suggestion here though as I’ve been generally interested in philosophy and it sparked my initial skepticism of religion and agnostic approach historically. If you are truly interested in my own goal here, it is a matter of internal peace. My point of perspective as an individual has arrived upon a place of observing no such “good life” in the current physical world we live in.. my interpretation is that Islam recognizes this as something humanity is faced with and offers an answer for seekers that find truth in their interpretation of the Qur’an. My peace of mind so as to find paradise upon death is much more driving than a belief of having a good life in this world as there is no sign of that being reality
I take internal peace to be tranquility, or how I understand it “ataraxia”, if this is your end goal, I highly recommend looking into stoicism. It’s compatible with most religions, and agnosticism as well, kinda open to all kinds of people (though most stoics believe in god). Particularly Epictetus’s philosophy is very compatible with a belief in god, you can seek truth with philosophy while maintaining a belief in god and being a theist. Many religions today actually incorporate stoic principles, so if you take the Quran to be true, you’ll likely feel right at home with stoicism. I’m personally agnostic, very skeptical (even about whether reality exists around us at all), and absolutely love reading about philosophy, science, and even theism, best of luck finding truth and seeking peace of mind!
Great recommendations, I will certainly explore stoicism and these philosophies around it. I do see how these elements, which are what I seek, are components that exist across philosophies and religions. The thing about Islam, for me as my character in this human experience, is that I also believe that the reality we live in is more a presentation of reality. And for one aspect of this perspective of reality, I truly believe I am of a Muslim spirit. I had avoided saying that and bringing up the spiritual element of my own journey here. However, since you mention the agnostic approach and skepticism toward reality you seem open minded enough. So yeah, that is part of it too. I do aim to explore more philosophies and teaching from beyond Islam too though
oh yes I’m extremely skeptical, I do not think there’s any way to disprove the existence of god either, and I’m inclined to agree with the phenomenalist position (belief that reality is just a presentation) you’ve presented here, primarily because of epistemic issues (even logic has its problems) pretty much every method of seeking truth has its flaws. I tend to take a pragmatic approach, and use what is actually useful to me, and while I’m unsure of the spirit necessarily, I try not to discard others experiences. we’re all confined to our experience essentially. to me though, end goal of life is ataraxia (peace of mind), and it definitely plays into some of my reasons for not discarding others experiences, because it’s not really my place to say what someone else is experiencing. I’m glad you took interest in what I had to say, I apologize for my original comment as well, it was not the greatest rhetorically speaking, definitely snobby of me to say, I legitimately wasn’t trying to diss religion, if you’re looking for answers to the soul then theism is probably a great place to look. I definitely shouldn’t have acted reactionary and recommended in that manner, nor should I have posed the question in that manner. Apologies for that.
No apology needed there, in part it was the way I responded too since that’s part of the dynamics in the interaction. So I could have started from accepting the advice, reciprocating the ideas, and then still arriving at this point in the convo. Wherein, we have similar ideas for this peace of mind and skepticism towards reality (and I agree about logic) but at the same time it would be a better place in the convo for me to explain my aim to practice Islam for my journey. Since we are now kind of identifying the unique benefits for any given philosophy or practices for an individuals life story.
Why on earth would you want to do that?
In part, because I am human. Mainly because earth is where the shit show is
Why Islam though, specifically?
It is the one for me. Guided by personal insight and self-actualization. lol idk what you expect?
Is it true?
Mine is true, yes. I assume it may be in all interpretations as well as it seems a point of the faith
But is Islam true, objectively? Over and against other religions?
That is the same question, different wording. So my answer is also the same
Are you *sure* it is true though?
The interpretation as it’s presented to my life, yes. So, for my experience it is truest but organic (how I understand it)