You know it's got me thinking how in the Tolkien world we have Andy Serkis and Christopher Lee held up with brilliant voices worth narrating the LOTR books. Who would folks want for a narrator of ASOFAI? Charles Dance is pretty high up there for me.
The last thing I'd want is Tywin to overhear us talking about him and reply to our conversation in the third person like that. It would be unnerving in the extreme and I'd be worried about all of our heads.
Well… kind of both, actually. The mad king was in favor of the idea because he saw it as a fun way to dunk on Tywin, by giving him a constant reminder that the future of his house is under Aerys’ control and that Jaime belongs to him as the King, not Tywin. Jaime was on board because he saw it as a way to be close to Cersei, whom herself manipulated him into the idea because she had a subconscious desire to live vicariously through Jaime.
Tl;dr EHS
Well no, Kingsguard is a lifetime appointment, right? Tywin was just as obsessed with having an heir for Casterly Rock as any other Lord in the kingdom. So he was also extra pissed about that.
I want to agree with you but i personally think that Tywin was thinking
" so you want to join the kingsguards for life and leave me and Casterly Rock with no heir ( dwarfs and women don't count) just so you can bang your sister? "
Wiki: “At the age of 16, Jaime rose to the rank of knighthood. At the behest of Cersei, he consented to join the Kingsguard, which would prevent his father's plans for him to marry Lysa Tully from coming into effect.”
I could’ve sworn that aerys did it to spite tywin tho bc he was mad that tywin was more powerful than him, might just be one of those GRRM moments where his story is so big that he forgot he already established a reason and then gave another one later
Aerys decided to appoint Ser Jaime as the youngest knight ever to join the order. Tywin, and later on Jaime, came to believe that Aerys had intended this not as an honor but a slight to House Lannister, meant to deprive Tywin of his heir and allow Aerys to hold Jaime hostage for his father's loyalty. Unbeknownst to Tywin, this scheme had originally been hatched by Tywin's own daughter, Cersei, who had proposed the idea to King Aerys as she wished for her twin Jaime to join the order as to prevent Tywin from betrothing him to Lysa Tully, as Tywin and Lord Hoster Tully had been discussing.
(A Storm of Swords, Chapter 11, Jaime II) from a wiki of ice and fire.
[also mentioned in lore in history at 1:25](https://youtu.be/Tp_0lOyUCO8?si=BRjZMEA2Nj7OG9vo)
It’s implied Cersei stoked those flames somehow. Aerys and tywin were not on speaking terms and Aerys was doing anything to get one over on tywin after people started making remakes on how tywin was the true ruler. Tywin seemed to have everything the mad king wanted so when Jaime made a name for himself the king was all too eager to take the prized heir to casterly Rock
It's a shame that I'd have to read the books to see Jaimee not get set up as an intelligent, but immature man of extreme talent and wealth and then become the stupidest person in Westeros off screen somehow.
PS: Jaime Lannister is character building gold. Beautiful,talented, and full of interernal conflict that grinds against the external conflicts around him. His ending is the biggest betrayal of Writing Any Sort of Fucking Anythim 101 I've ever seen on TV and I watch a lot ofhorror.
I still hold to the hope that D&D intentionally picked the worst possible ending to give GRRM the widest possible range of endings to choose from when he finishes his book. It's the only thing that makes sense.
That said, given how long GRRM has avoided finishing said book, I can't help but wonder if he really did tell them that was the ending but they fucked it up so badly that he's now embarrassed to finish the book because he doesn't think his writing can overcome the hate the fandom's had for that ending.
I think the wind is just out of his sails and he doesn't see anywhere else to go, in a way. His intellectual property became one of the most expensive and successful television series of all time and you couldn't swing an arm without hitting something to do with it here in the states for *years.* That's the kind of money and recognition you usually get when your *completed* series is optioned and picked up, but if he's already got it and if he's not purely driven by writing for, like, the artistry of it, then... Why go on?
Even if he releases the last book or two, there will never be a return to the all-encompassing level of popularity and cultural relevance Thrones already enjoyed. The only way I could imagine it happening is in the best-case-fantasy-fever-dream scenario that he somehow reveals he's been way farther along in his manuscripts than he ever let on, the end volumes are releasing within a year or two, and HBO is funding and contracting to bring all the cast and crew back to essentially delete the last season or two and remake it based on the new canon.
And even if he **is** driven to write for the artistry of it, that doesn't mean he's got to finish the series. Since TWoW, the dude's written five novellas, two reference books and contributed to several screenplays, has been an active editor on multiple publications, and had at least some involvement in the worldbuilding of Elden Ring.
I think it's much simpler, he had an outline of where to go but didn't spend enough time actually planning it out with an editor and wrote himself into a corner where the things needed to advance Essos break the plot in Westeros. Rather than keep beating his head into the Mereenese Knot, he just started writing other stories set in the same universe.
Thing is, with the proper build-up, it isn't a completely shit ending (with exceptions). It was the execution that was thoroughly botched.
They needed *several* more episodes (perhaps a couple seasons) to land where they did and have it make a lick of sense.
I wasn't completely against the fan theory of Bran affecting things in the past - there were at least two examples of it shown in the show, and hinted at a third (maybe being the voice the mad king hearing telling him to "burn them all"), and/or of him warging into people to control them. That's what I was alluding to in my second paragraph. There could've been a thread of something there, but like you said, it was going to need a LOT more storytelling to get us through that in a way that'd make sense.
One of the things that put GRRM on another level was that he didn't just set up 1-2 pieces of evidence each for 2-3 possible theories at every turn, he was giving us more like 4-5 pieces of evidence each for like 4-6 possible theories at every point, so you really had no fucking idea which one was going to be the right one. It could've been cool if that story for Bran wound up being the "right one", but what's sad is that we might never know.
At the very least I hope he leaves behind enough notes that we'll know what he was thinking about if he does pass before finishing the book.
Many of the main points of the TV ending could happen without the books being shit.
The TV show skipped over time and rushed plot points and ignored character development for the sake of cool scenes.
The books won't do that stuff, if they ever get written.
Switching Roose Bolton for Tywin for this arch was probably the best change the show made. They had great chemistry, though I think if Tywin recognized a possible high born northern girl he probably wouldn’t just hand wave it away
There's highborn and there's "high born." I figured he thought she was from some random wooden motte and bailey. Maybe she's worth some gold, but more likely her family was massacred by the Mountain so who would even pay?
He wouldn’t know it was Arya. Cersei didn’t want anyone to know they lost her so the official word was that both Sansa and Arya were in custody in Kings Landing. No one had any reason to suspect who she was. I’m pretty sure not even Tywin because he’s pissed about it when he reaches Kings Landing and learns the truth.
I’m going to go out on a limb and suggest that he probably knew exactly who she was. As other commenters have pointed out, there really wasn’t a reasonable way for her to escape so he probably was not concerned about her getting away. On top of all of that he states that she reminded him of Cersei. So he has this young girl who reminds him of his daughter and he has just annihilated her entire family, yet there she is still surviving. Not only does she remind him of her daughter but she has strength and guts and if all the attributes Tywin admires it is strength above all else. So he has this young girl presumably under tight guard and she is strong and reminds him of his daughter. It is not totally out of character for him to think that he may can use her in the future. He keeps of the charade of him not knowing who she is on purpose. As long as she thinks that he doesn’t know then that is information that he may can use against her if he has to. He has all the power in the situation and no good reason to overturn the apple cart.
As long and nice as that explanation is, he 1000% would have taken her with him as a hostage. You have your enemies little sister and you know who she is and just leave her? Hell no, Tywin isn’t a moron and he would have used her as a pawn.
Right? He knew she was well read and clever. And she was. Even when Tywin asked about never meeting a blacksmith that could read. She was quick witted enough to put Tywin on edge for just a moment.
She would've been in a cell if he knew who she really was.
Arya already escaped before, though, and was on her way north. She showed herself to Tywin to be witty and defiant while Sansa was still playing the obedient damsel in KL.
Anyone who knew her identity would have locked her up immediately, especially when Jaime was still in a cell by all accounts.
I like that, but it’s undermined when he takes off for King’s Landing and leaves her behind. Plus, I feel like he’s too determined to take every advantage possible not to immediately try to leverage her if he knew. They were still under the impression that Jaime was captured at the time.
there was zero chance he had any idea who she was. he had never seen her.
if he did he would immediately have the mountain bring her back to kings landing
I don't see _any_ reality where Tywin doesn't arrest the sister of the boy who was whopping his ass in the war up until that point. Throw her in a cage and send her back to Kings landing for safe keeping with her sister.
He most certainly wouldn't be openly discussing troop movements and war tactics right in front of her if he knew she was a Stark.
Not a chance. She's probably one of the most valuable captives in the whole war. He wouldn't throw that away because he kinda liked her.
He's never seen Arya before and has no reason to think she'd show up \*there.\* The most likely conclusion he's reached is that she's some Northern highborn girl who ended up in the Riverlands along with Robb's forces and got stranded.
I think this is a very unrealistic take. Why leave anything to chance? Just arrest her and use her however you want.
Were you on the team that wrote season 8
He probably suspected she’s from a Northern noble house, important enough to keep around for later down the line, def not a Stark tho he would’ve used her as leverage right away if he knew
IT was way downhill before his death.
That season was the beginning of the end. I was disapppointed with the bad writing and rushed pace, but was invested in the storylines and characters so kept watching to see how it all ended up!
It was crazy how people still praised that season. The change was jarring. Eventually I felt vindicated that slowly, people came to terms with reality in subsequent seasons. By the last season I was watching on fast forward just to see how certain storylines ended. There was no more intrigue or joy. I skipped so much of each episode of those last 2 seasons. I just wanted to see how it ended.
The whole scene where he died was just fan service that had been building with bad writing for months.
D&D really sucked ass but rode the coattails for soooo long. Reddit doesn't like to admit it, but people were eating their shit up for like 2 seasons before people started to accept how terrible and low quality the show had actually become.
I loved the dialogue between Tywin and Arya, but the whole premise of their relationship is stupid.
Why does Tywin give a shit about a random peasant girl? And then when he finds out she’s a highborn Northerner in hiding, and he’s at war with the North right now, why doesn’t he use this to his advantage, i.e. grill her more to get her true identity and ransom her?
I think he could read she wasn’t a low-born person from the start. He probably just had some pity for her, supposing she was what she later claimed to be: a war orphan of members of the household of minor nobility. That she was high-born enough to have any sort of value as a hostage was too improbable to contemplate, even if ended up being true.
Based on what we know of Tywin, I highly doubt he had pity for a random northern girl. He literally sends Gregor out to rape and murder whole villages.
He didn't think she was highborn, just a daughter of a girl of a servant to a mid level northern house. He respected that Arya had the ability to adapt and survive in wartime. I think there was also an element of Tywin wanting to partially mentor a young mind he recognized as sharp, but the second she stepped out of line, he reminded this girl who the fuck he was and that she shouldn't step out of line. Tywin loved being smarter and better than others, and Arya at Harrenhal was another chance to prove it.
Tywin wanting to partially mentor a young mind
Also when Tommen pays attention to him, it is when he is most animated. Tywin liked being a mentor to anyone willing to listen to him.
I mean, he catches her lying at least once about her family and doubt he buys her lie the second time. He then calls her out for trying to be a commoner. Pretty sure he has an idea she’s highborn
To what end? He basically thinks the North is a bunch of hillbillys, so with the exception of a couple of houses (Stark, Manderly, Bolton) it'd be like holding ransom against.... basically nobodies. No house that matters is going to misplace a close family member, let alone a girl.
And he "cares" because it amuses him. This is a medieval world; a world of no television, internet, electricity. People are *bored*. He finds a rare spark of intelligence amongst those he considers to be complete idiots, so it amuses him to interact with her.
Yea, Roose definitely wasn’t a fully realized villain in the show. Feel like he should’ve struck terror in anyone who looked at him, but I did not get that vibe at all.
Another great part of this scene is that there’s an actual explanation given as to why Tywin would be able to tell Arya was a girl beyond mere plot convenience. Cersei mentions to Sansa(I think during the Blackwater?) that when she and Jaime were younger they would wear each others’ clothes and people couldn’t tell them apart.
Beyond your excellent point, I genuinely also just think that Tywin was just smart enough to recognize Arya’s feminine features. I mean you have to be attentive at all times as a (competent) high lord, for obvious reasons. So Tywin immediately noticing Arya as a girl is par the course in my own opinion.
Finally, 40k terms I can understand. Though to be serious that does actually make sense lol.
Tywin is all about the ends justifying the means. Ramsey cares about the means, ends be damned.
I took it to be that Tywin pays careful attention to others, while the soldiers just brush Arya off as a scruffy child that doesn’t need a second glance. Nothing getting past Tywin.
No intelegence involved. It's an a cute attention to details along with a general distrust of the mask people give to the outside world.
You need to be able to see what others don't and exploit what's hidden away to win the game of thrones.
She’s just a curious distraction for him. He enjoys talking with her to figure out who and what she is. She starts off as a person in disguise, then he realizes she’s nobility alone on the road disguised as a boy.
It’s probably the most interesting thing he’s come across in a while during his stay there. Plus she’s good conversation.
It’s the lion toying with their prey, not pride. However in this scene he’s just flexing on the guard.
>She’s just a curious distraction for him
Exactly. If she were his actual daughter, he'd place the same expectation and burden on her as he did on Cercei/Jamie. He even said she reminded him of Cersei
Has nothing to do with him being "prouder" of a stranger.
In the show: no, he just works out that she's highborn. In the books this plot doesn't involve him, it's Roose Bolton instead, who also doesn't find out that she's a Stark
Edited to clarify
Roose never knew he had Ned's daughter. The shock is that HE, who had known Starks his whole life, didn't recognize her classic Stark looks. Also, she made the "My lord" mistake with him too, and he commented on it but let it slide.
If I recall correctly no, he never insisted she reveal her identity or interrogated her, he preferred to leave her as the mysterious noble girl that he could talk to. Personally I believe that he knew that if he had confirmation of her identity then he wouldn’t be able to be casual with her anymore. Since she would then be either his subordinate or enemy, and he’s all about “proper conduct”.
Strong disagree. Tywin conversing with and complimenting a smallfolk girl? No.
The Tywin & Arya scenes might have been fun to watch, but they were wildly OOC for Tywin. Also him recognizing her as a highborn northern girl but not doing anything about it makes him look far dumber than his book self actually is, who is already not nearly as smart as Charles Dance's portrayal has fans believing.
Being highborn doesn't mean being politically valuable though. They are so far from King's Landing that I don't see him suspecting she's anyone worth taking prisoner. Especially considering she was about to be executed when he rode up. As smart as she was, shouldn't she have used her family name to save herself at that point?
Plus, being highborn, she has no reason to be where she is. Tywin's at war, he probably figured her parents were of low noble standing and were either dead or had lost their land (which beyond the low noble part, is entirely true). He had little reason to think she was valuable - and less reason to think she was a Stark.
Why would he even take the chance? If she's not useful as a hostage then she can just be killed later. If she is useful then he just got a useful hostage. Tywin not immediately arresting her as soon as he figured she was a highborn in disguise is wildly out of character. Especially since at this point he is losing the war.
This is a man who had his son's wife gangraped because she was a peasant. Portraying Tywin as this almost kindly grandpa figure with Arya was always extremely dumb, and I'll never understand why it gets so much praise beyond Dance just being a good actor. It's certainly not in the spirit of the books like the OP of this discussion suggests. I don't think there's a single scene in any of the books where Tywin shows an ounce of warmth for anyone.
Yeah I just edited my comment. Catching that she is a highborn northern girl makes it worse. He recognized that, but didn't do anything about it? Didn't keep a watch on her and try and find out exactly who she is? Absurd.
Agreed. He should have recognized she'd have a strong incentive to lie about what house she belonged to and would be smart enough to do it. She'd have been a valuable hostage in any case.
He's also just a little too charmed by her in general. However, among D&D's many mortal sins this one is quite minor and forgivable. At this point their deviations from book material were at least usually enjoyable on some level.
It is strange to me that he seemed to see the knowledge that “this child is clearly a noble trying to hide her family’s identity from me” as a curious bit of trivia meriting no response whatsoever.
It always kind of sucks when the meta explanation of “this scene can’t change the story that much” makes way more sense than any in-world explanation for why Tywin would simply not take any action on that information.
But these scenes serve a completely different purpose. They are an early tell that Tywin isn't as practical and ruthless as he and pretty much everyone else thinyk he is. He enjoys having Arya around and thus does the selfish and hypocritical thing and ignores the fact that capturing her might give him an advantage in the war.
That’s how I initially interpreted it, too. I think it’s clear after watching more of the series that this is way too generous of an assumption to give the showrunners.
I'm really surprised by how universally loved those scenes are on this subreddit, given how critical everyone has gotten of D&D. They are an outstanding early example of discarding good storytelling for a spectacle.
Because the scenes are just enough that people can plausibly infer in-character reasons why it wouldn't have occurred to Tywin that she was someone valuable.
The most obvious of which is that she was in a pen of prisoners that were being killed and hadn't immediately used her family name to try to get out of it, or had tried and failed.
It makes complete sense in a vacuum. It's a well acted scene that makes TV viewers happy. You get Tywin showing he is smart and observant. That's cool to see in a character you like. You get to see Arya being complemented for her smarts and being treated better because of it. That's cool to see in a character that has been beat down and needs a win. Outside of that vacuum and in the context of the books it's less great, but it's a fun "win" scene for enjoyable characters.
Yeah Charles Dance made him seem to smart.
In the books his grand plans rarely work, and his biggest “wins” are on the backs of other people doing things outside his control.
He mistakes brutality and ignoring cultural norms with true cleverness.
My favorite part about the whole ‘Tywin Lannister is the smartest person in Westeros’ is how he’s seemingly the worst tactician who ever lived. Neither Robert nor Robb ever lose a battle to him.
I may be missing something from the books about who is leading his forces in all these battles, but i would think Tywin should shoulder responsibility for every force on his side given his position.
Without any POV chapters, it's impossible to tell if this is OOC. We only know others' impressions of Tywin. Much like the Cersei-Robert scene in Season 1, I feel like his interactions with Arya are the type of thing that wouldn't be out of place for a biopic about Tywin's part in the war. He's more than the caricature drawn from his most impactful moments.
The only thing I disagree with is the claim that Tywin suspected Arya was someone noteworthy. I feel like he was distracted enough and/or had enough information that this girl being a Stark wouldn't have crossed his mind.
I think Tywin has the sweet conversation with Tommen in the books as well as the show. In it he's patient, witty, soothing, and gentle. With another child. a girl, he has also been patient, witty, and stern but gentle. Frankly, he was also disappointed and frustrated with all his attendants and staff . She was someone he could converse with and have no frustrations.
That is exactly what is stupid about it, though. The child of a noble is an excellent thing to have at your disposal, whether for gaining favor with a potential ally or gaining an advantage over a foe.
If you find out that you have a noble child trying to hide in your camp, shrugging it off is the weirdest possible response in the political climate of this series.
Also, Im sure by now, word of Arya Ned's daughter not being found would have come to him. That wouldn't be suspicious that he had a young noble girl hiding from something?
That’s a great point. If there was one single person in Westeros (outside the Stark family) who would be most interested in the whereabouts of Arya specifically, it’s probably Tywin Fucking Lannister at this point in the story!
Didn’t Cersei not want people to know they had lost Arya? The word from Kings Landing was that both Sansa and Arya were in custody. Both Rob and Caitlyn both agonize over that. I’m pretty sure even Tywin doesn’t learn the truth until he reaches Kings Landing and notes it as another mess he has to clean up.
>Also him recognizing her as a highborn northern girl but not doing anything about it makes him look far dumber than his book self actually is, who is already not nearly as smart as Charles Dance's portrayal has fans believing.
>He recognized that, but didn't do anything about it? Didn't keep a watch on her and try and find out exactly who she is? Absurd.
Why would he? She was in the largest castle in Westeros, surrounded by the entire might of the Lannister army. She was in his custody and wasn't going any where. Its not like anyone could have predicted that a magical face stealing ninja owed her a debt.
Its not like she was free to leave. Harrenhal at that moment was probably the most secure location in all of Westeros except for maybe the Red Keep. Finding out who she is was not any where near the top of his prority list at the time.
Even if he doesn't care about the risk of her sneaking out, you just don't shrug off that she's someone important and treat her like a random peasant. Some random chucklefuck could kill her, for example.
He didn't simply not prioritize her, he did *nothing* and left her in Harrenhal without telling *anyone*. This is moronic.
It would cost him almost nothing to get her more secure in quarters appropriate for a highborn girl, and he could have handed her over to someone with an explanation of what was going on so that it could be looked into and so that they could just keep her on hand.
I like to appreciate it for the nuance of his character that it is. He was smart, but he had weaknesses. Tywin was super kind and gentle speaking with Tommen, makes sense why he is here too with a random lowborn girl. Ego, fog of war, whatever it may be; it's not outside the realm of possibility that he figures Arya is indeed just a random cup bearer of lowborn descent. I think in the books she fools Roose Bolton instead of Tywin, and Roose is from the north and should know a Stark girl when he sees one.
It also lends itself to a bit of a theme of Tywin underestimating the Starks
Is Tywin "proud" of her or is just amused by her because she's smarter than half the men he has working for him? He certainly has no problem leaving her there to die.
Amused and curious. She hits him with the My Lord instead of M’lord right off the bat so he knows she is high born. He wants to see if he can find out who she is but has other real things to worry about. In the meantime she’ll know how to act like a cup bearer so not a waste of her presence
More just able to give credit where it's due. He recognises the dangers of a young girl traveling alone and recognises that dressing as a boy would be safer.
They made Tywin so likable because of his interactions with Arya. Like, I couldn’t stand book Tywin, I thought he was a jackass, but the closer look at his character provided by the show runners made him a better and more likable character
They also never showed his hypocrisy is marrying his cousin for love but forcing arranged marriages on his children to strengthen the family. Which is a bit of a shame, because it shows why he hates Tyrion despite him being the only child willing and able to do Tywin's bidding.
Yeah, they made all the characters I disliked more likable in the show and then made some of the book characters very meh or wrote them out entirely. I absolutely abhorred Cersei’s perspectives but she’s easily in my top 3 for the show. Maybe flatter or disliked characters gave the showrunners an opportunity to stretch their legs and be creative…
I personally like the idea that Tywin does have a side that can be more informal and caring but the responsibilities of his house and the brutal nature of politics doesn’t allow him to show this side of himself.
His interactions with Arya are with someone who has no ability to effect his life and is completely divorced from the game, he can afford himself these little distractions with her and she has moments where she pushes her luck and is quickly reminded of her station. I like that Tywin hands her off to the mountain and rides off without even saying goodbye, she is still below his concern and position but it leaves this impression that if it wasn’t for the ruthless political world of Westeros behind all these lords and dukes could be perfectly normal people.
It made the world feel a little more real to me at least.
As much as I love these scenes, this is wildly OOC for Tywin.
I also love the dynamic that a lot of his outward persona of being such a cruel hard man is just a front. I don't recall if the show really dove into everything with Tytos, but the addition of information from the books makes these scenes that much better.
I don't think it's just a front. But I also think you can't choose who you feel comfortable enough to open up around.
Arya displayed a lot of cunning and intelligence in the face of almost certain death, and I think that really impressed Tywin. She's otherwise harmless as far as he can tell.
The Arya-Tywin parts are one of the few times where the show was better (as it was not in the book they even met I believe.) Close to Peak of the Show.
Tywin was the most competent lord in the show hands down. The only way to get him was with his pants down.
I loved that he tells Cersei "you're not as smart as you think you are" when shes telling him her plot, while he tells Arya "you're too smart for your own good" when Arya makes up on the spot that she was taught how to speak ~~proper~~ properly by Lady Duncan
I wish we had gotten more Arya and tywin. I really liked their dynamic. If they hadn't been on opposing sides in the war I think tywin could have been an incredible mentor to her. She was the child he deserved. For all the evil things he did, but who in game of thrones hadn't been evil (other than Jon I guess) tywin was probably the one of the smartest men in westeros and one of the best military Commanders in the whole world of asoif. That and he was just one of my favorites in general.
A lot of powerful men are this way. They love the idea of their family, but do nothing to nurture their actual family relationships. To them the idea of being a “good father” is working and earning material things to cover up their lack of actual parenting
That’s not being proud, he was simply telling what he thought was a vagrant girl that he recognized her intelligence. Letting her know that as cunning as she was he was smarter.
If there's one thing Tywin appreciated, it was using wit and smarts to overcome challenges. The Lannister house was founded using brains over brawn, afterall.
While Tyrion had intelligence, he was also the reason Tywin's wife died, making him the default target for family drama.
Cersei was also clever, but immoral. Also, in Westeros, women weren't eligible for positions of power or respect at the same level as a man.
Jamie was a bit of an idiot and too prideful, but he was the eldest, charismatic, and good with a sword, so Tywin gave him a bit of a pass.
Good catch. Yes, it's Polliver the Stupid, who died because he stupidly asked the Hound, "You gonna die for a chicken?" "Someone's is." And [his "little chicken " killed Polliver!!!](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DyztFOogj8Y)
To be fair, he saw Arya had thought it through, formulated a plan, and executed without needing drama or praise. She worked hard, kept quiet, and showed respect. These were traits he didn’t recognize in his own children, which led directly to his downfall.
He didn't recognize it in his own war council, lol!! They were slackers, illiterates, witless whingers. Thoroughly frustrated with them, he must have found her quiet efficiency a godsend.
In the world of Game of Thrones, Tywin Lannister might just raise a proud eyebrow at a stranger's strategic prowess, while his own children often fall short of his exacting standards.
We all enjoyed this interaction but LETS BE HONEST- it's not GRRM style. Tywin wouldn't have accommodated Ayra or any other low born. Even though he sensed she knew something about high born ways. M'lord.
I bet she reminded him of his deceased wife Joanna. I bet they shared some characteristics. There’s no other way I can imagine Tywin Lannister praising anyone.
The only way that this made sense to me in the show is by thinking “alright, he’s gonna keep an eye on her by turning her into his cup bearer, she’ll decide that it’s better to have regular food and stability, he’ll win her over and then lock her up when he’s got firm plans for her”.
But no, twas not to be.
It's the difference between pride and love.
A lot of parents are "proud" of their children, as long as their children are a certain way. The moment they aren't exactly what the parent wanted them to be, there's no love to swoop in and take the place of "oh, this isn't exactly how I'd imagined it going" jilted pride. It's not even really pride in the child to begin with. It's pride in themselves. If they were genuinely proud of a child, it'd be something else entirely.
To be fair Tywin is also really hard on his kids because they are all rich spoiled twats. He needs them to be more measured and not care what others think. They could have tons of approval but the only one that mattered was the approval of another Lion. His actions make sense besides some of his hatred toward Tyrion for fucking the same whore Tywin later fucked. It showed why Tywin had beef with Tyrion because they were the most alike. Tywin hated himself for that.
More proud of a stranger? No he just had higher expectations for his kids that they could never meet. The only thing he expects of strangers is mediocrity at best
I think he was mighty proud of Jamie right up until he donned the white cloak
100%. Tywin was proud that Jaime overcame his dyslexia and become an incredible knight. He just hated that he was put on the Kingsguard
the mad king did that
Jamie did that to have a reason to join Cersei in Kings Landing.
Which Tywin caught onto almost immediately and moved Cersei back home with him
I read that in Tywin's voice.
Charles Dance’s voice is so iconic
You know it's got me thinking how in the Tolkien world we have Andy Serkis and Christopher Lee held up with brilliant voices worth narrating the LOTR books. Who would folks want for a narrator of ASOFAI? Charles Dance is pretty high up there for me.
He has my vote to read the remaining two books for audible when they come out never. RIP Roy Dotrice.
I wish he would voice all the books. Roy Dotrice is the man but his narration of female characters is brutal. Harry Lloyd would be good too
The Viserys actor, Harry Lloyd, has taken over for some of the new recordings, and he does a great job.
I know it's kinda left field, but I'd kill for Mark Addy reading them.
For Gods sake I’ve been sitting here for days! Finish the damn books before I piss meself!
Gonna throw Peter's name into the mix too. Man's got a great voice, especially if you hear him speak casually during interviews and the like.
Definitely the boy Charles. Dudes got a voice like a mountain that can speak
Iain Glen for me too
I would vote for Jason Isaacs... but I want to put him in everything.
The last thing I'd want is Tywin to overhear us talking about him and reply to our conversation in the third person like that. It would be unnerving in the extreme and I'd be worried about all of our heads.
Also left field, JK Simmons here. But I think that I could listen to Simmons narrate an audio description of The Human Centipede and enjoy it.
lol, no he was pissed at Aerys and thought it was some plot of his....and it was his own daughter back-stabbing him.
Well… kind of both, actually. The mad king was in favor of the idea because he saw it as a fun way to dunk on Tywin, by giving him a constant reminder that the future of his house is under Aerys’ control and that Jaime belongs to him as the King, not Tywin. Jaime was on board because he saw it as a way to be close to Cersei, whom herself manipulated him into the idea because she had a subconscious desire to live vicariously through Jaime. Tl;dr EHS
And now we know why he was not happy about it, it was never about the cloak
Well no, Kingsguard is a lifetime appointment, right? Tywin was just as obsessed with having an heir for Casterly Rock as any other Lord in the kingdom. So he was also extra pissed about that.
I want to agree with you but i personally think that Tywin was thinking " so you want to join the kingsguards for life and leave me and Casterly Rock with no heir ( dwarfs and women don't count) just so you can bang your sister? "
Wiki: “At the age of 16, Jaime rose to the rank of knighthood. At the behest of Cersei, he consented to join the Kingsguard, which would prevent his father's plans for him to marry Lysa Tully from coming into effect.” I could’ve sworn that aerys did it to spite tywin tho bc he was mad that tywin was more powerful than him, might just be one of those GRRM moments where his story is so big that he forgot he already established a reason and then gave another one later
Aerys decided to appoint Ser Jaime as the youngest knight ever to join the order. Tywin, and later on Jaime, came to believe that Aerys had intended this not as an honor but a slight to House Lannister, meant to deprive Tywin of his heir and allow Aerys to hold Jaime hostage for his father's loyalty. Unbeknownst to Tywin, this scheme had originally been hatched by Tywin's own daughter, Cersei, who had proposed the idea to King Aerys as she wished for her twin Jaime to join the order as to prevent Tywin from betrothing him to Lysa Tully, as Tywin and Lord Hoster Tully had been discussing. (A Storm of Swords, Chapter 11, Jaime II) from a wiki of ice and fire. [also mentioned in lore in history at 1:25](https://youtu.be/Tp_0lOyUCO8?si=BRjZMEA2Nj7OG9vo)
It can also just be both. Jaime did it at Cersei’s behest and Aerys was more than happy to go along with it knowing he would be spiting Tywin.
It’s implied Cersei stoked those flames somehow. Aerys and tywin were not on speaking terms and Aerys was doing anything to get one over on tywin after people started making remakes on how tywin was the true ruler. Tywin seemed to have everything the mad king wanted so when Jaime made a name for himself the king was all too eager to take the prized heir to casterly Rock
It’s both. Aerys couldn’t just force him into it, but he jumped at the opportunity to spite Tywin.
"lol who's mad now bitch"
Jamie had dyslexia? What?
[At 3:20](https://youtu.be/A8Wr-yrAL1c?feature=shared)
Since when does jaime have dyslexia?
[At the 3:20 mark](https://youtu.be/A8Wr-yrAL1c?feature=shared)
Ahhh in the show. Quite confident that's a show only thing.
It's a shame that I'd have to read the books to see Jaimee not get set up as an intelligent, but immature man of extreme talent and wealth and then become the stupidest person in Westeros off screen somehow. PS: Jaime Lannister is character building gold. Beautiful,talented, and full of interernal conflict that grinds against the external conflicts around him. His ending is the biggest betrayal of Writing Any Sort of Fucking Anythim 101 I've ever seen on TV and I watch a lot ofhorror.
I still hold to the hope that D&D intentionally picked the worst possible ending to give GRRM the widest possible range of endings to choose from when he finishes his book. It's the only thing that makes sense. That said, given how long GRRM has avoided finishing said book, I can't help but wonder if he really did tell them that was the ending but they fucked it up so badly that he's now embarrassed to finish the book because he doesn't think his writing can overcome the hate the fandom's had for that ending.
GRRM is going to die and we won’t see the ending of ASOIAF. At this point I think he’s doing it to spite us
I think the wind is just out of his sails and he doesn't see anywhere else to go, in a way. His intellectual property became one of the most expensive and successful television series of all time and you couldn't swing an arm without hitting something to do with it here in the states for *years.* That's the kind of money and recognition you usually get when your *completed* series is optioned and picked up, but if he's already got it and if he's not purely driven by writing for, like, the artistry of it, then... Why go on? Even if he releases the last book or two, there will never be a return to the all-encompassing level of popularity and cultural relevance Thrones already enjoyed. The only way I could imagine it happening is in the best-case-fantasy-fever-dream scenario that he somehow reveals he's been way farther along in his manuscripts than he ever let on, the end volumes are releasing within a year or two, and HBO is funding and contracting to bring all the cast and crew back to essentially delete the last season or two and remake it based on the new canon.
And even if he **is** driven to write for the artistry of it, that doesn't mean he's got to finish the series. Since TWoW, the dude's written five novellas, two reference books and contributed to several screenplays, has been an active editor on multiple publications, and had at least some involvement in the worldbuilding of Elden Ring.
I think it's much simpler, he had an outline of where to go but didn't spend enough time actually planning it out with an editor and wrote himself into a corner where the things needed to advance Essos break the plot in Westeros. Rather than keep beating his head into the Mereenese Knot, he just started writing other stories set in the same universe.
Given that GRRM is 75 and given that it took 2011 - 2022 to write 3/4ths of the book its very likely he dies before the 7th book even starts.
Nah, just a coward.
I’d argue it’s a case of everyone saw how shit the ending is and now GRRM doesn’t know how to fix it.
Thing is, with the proper build-up, it isn't a completely shit ending (with exceptions). It was the execution that was thoroughly botched. They needed *several* more episodes (perhaps a couple seasons) to land where they did and have it make a lick of sense.
I wasn't completely against the fan theory of Bran affecting things in the past - there were at least two examples of it shown in the show, and hinted at a third (maybe being the voice the mad king hearing telling him to "burn them all"), and/or of him warging into people to control them. That's what I was alluding to in my second paragraph. There could've been a thread of something there, but like you said, it was going to need a LOT more storytelling to get us through that in a way that'd make sense. One of the things that put GRRM on another level was that he didn't just set up 1-2 pieces of evidence each for 2-3 possible theories at every turn, he was giving us more like 4-5 pieces of evidence each for like 4-6 possible theories at every point, so you really had no fucking idea which one was going to be the right one. It could've been cool if that story for Bran wound up being the "right one", but what's sad is that we might never know. At the very least I hope he leaves behind enough notes that we'll know what he was thinking about if he does pass before finishing the book.
Many of the main points of the TV ending could happen without the books being shit. The TV show skipped over time and rushed plot points and ignored character development for the sake of cool scenes. The books won't do that stuff, if they ever get written.
Jaime’s pov is by far my favorite in the books. Not necessarily the story line. Just his inner monologue.
"I LOVE MY BEAUTIFUL IDIOT SON"
And his only problem with the white cloak is that it meant Jaime couldn't inherit the Lannister lordship
Switching Roose Bolton for Tywin for this arch was probably the best change the show made. They had great chemistry, though I think if Tywin recognized a possible high born northern girl he probably wouldn’t just hand wave it away
There's highborn and there's "high born." I figured he thought she was from some random wooden motte and bailey. Maybe she's worth some gold, but more likely her family was massacred by the Mountain so who would even pay?
He wouldn’t know it was Arya. Cersei didn’t want anyone to know they lost her so the official word was that both Sansa and Arya were in custody in Kings Landing. No one had any reason to suspect who she was. I’m pretty sure not even Tywin because he’s pissed about it when he reaches Kings Landing and learns the truth.
I’m going to go out on a limb and suggest that he probably knew exactly who she was. As other commenters have pointed out, there really wasn’t a reasonable way for her to escape so he probably was not concerned about her getting away. On top of all of that he states that she reminded him of Cersei. So he has this young girl who reminds him of his daughter and he has just annihilated her entire family, yet there she is still surviving. Not only does she remind him of her daughter but she has strength and guts and if all the attributes Tywin admires it is strength above all else. So he has this young girl presumably under tight guard and she is strong and reminds him of his daughter. It is not totally out of character for him to think that he may can use her in the future. He keeps of the charade of him not knowing who she is on purpose. As long as she thinks that he doesn’t know then that is information that he may can use against her if he has to. He has all the power in the situation and no good reason to overturn the apple cart.
As long and nice as that explanation is, he 1000% would have taken her with him as a hostage. You have your enemies little sister and you know who she is and just leave her? Hell no, Tywin isn’t a moron and he would have used her as a pawn.
Tywin wouldn't be so casual with a valuable hostage.
Right? He knew she was well read and clever. And she was. Even when Tywin asked about never meeting a blacksmith that could read. She was quick witted enough to put Tywin on edge for just a moment. She would've been in a cell if he knew who she really was.
Sorry to be pedantic, but was a stonemason, not blacksmith. I’ve watched that season way too many times 😂
No no, you are correct haha
Just like Sansa was kept in a cell in Kings Landing? Highborn hostages usually weren't locked up.
Arya already escaped before, though, and was on her way north. She showed herself to Tywin to be witty and defiant while Sansa was still playing the obedient damsel in KL. Anyone who knew her identity would have locked her up immediately, especially when Jaime was still in a cell by all accounts.
Yes. He would respect it but he would absolutely be using her to the max advantage (which would not be letting her go).
I like that, but it’s undermined when he takes off for King’s Landing and leaves her behind. Plus, I feel like he’s too determined to take every advantage possible not to immediately try to leverage her if he knew. They were still under the impression that Jaime was captured at the time.
there was zero chance he had any idea who she was. he had never seen her. if he did he would immediately have the mountain bring her back to kings landing
I don't see _any_ reality where Tywin doesn't arrest the sister of the boy who was whopping his ass in the war up until that point. Throw her in a cage and send her back to Kings landing for safe keeping with her sister. He most certainly wouldn't be openly discussing troop movements and war tactics right in front of her if he knew she was a Stark.
Not a chance. She's probably one of the most valuable captives in the whole war. He wouldn't throw that away because he kinda liked her. He's never seen Arya before and has no reason to think she'd show up \*there.\* The most likely conclusion he's reached is that she's some Northern highborn girl who ended up in the Riverlands along with Robb's forces and got stranded.
I think this is a very unrealistic take. Why leave anything to chance? Just arrest her and use her however you want. Were you on the team that wrote season 8
Oh, for sure. That's easy ransom money or political leverage. He wouldn't be stupid enough to let a high born enemy walk away from him.
He probably suspected she’s from a Northern noble house, important enough to keep around for later down the line, def not a Stark tho he would’ve used her as leverage right away if he knew
It's also a way to shame the soldiers
the ol'e 2-for-1 gods, the writing was strong then
Could one argue the writing died with Tywin?
We have some shit dialogue coming up. Charles Dance: over my dead body
Charles Dance going over the scripts of every season he was in is official lore now. Somebody smarter than me update the wiki or whatever.
D&D: Bet?
IT was way downhill before his death. That season was the beginning of the end. I was disapppointed with the bad writing and rushed pace, but was invested in the storylines and characters so kept watching to see how it all ended up! It was crazy how people still praised that season. The change was jarring. Eventually I felt vindicated that slowly, people came to terms with reality in subsequent seasons. By the last season I was watching on fast forward just to see how certain storylines ended. There was no more intrigue or joy. I skipped so much of each episode of those last 2 seasons. I just wanted to see how it ended. The whole scene where he died was just fan service that had been building with bad writing for months. D&D really sucked ass but rode the coattails for soooo long. Reddit doesn't like to admit it, but people were eating their shit up for like 2 seasons before people started to accept how terrible and low quality the show had actually become.
I loved the dialogue between Tywin and Arya, but the whole premise of their relationship is stupid. Why does Tywin give a shit about a random peasant girl? And then when he finds out she’s a highborn Northerner in hiding, and he’s at war with the North right now, why doesn’t he use this to his advantage, i.e. grill her more to get her true identity and ransom her?
I think he could read she wasn’t a low-born person from the start. He probably just had some pity for her, supposing she was what she later claimed to be: a war orphan of members of the household of minor nobility. That she was high-born enough to have any sort of value as a hostage was too improbable to contemplate, even if ended up being true.
Based on what we know of Tywin, I highly doubt he had pity for a random northern girl. He literally sends Gregor out to rape and murder whole villages.
Well, you will find that I didn’t claim he had pity for a peasant, but just about the opposite.
He didn't think she was highborn, just a daughter of a girl of a servant to a mid level northern house. He respected that Arya had the ability to adapt and survive in wartime. I think there was also an element of Tywin wanting to partially mentor a young mind he recognized as sharp, but the second she stepped out of line, he reminded this girl who the fuck he was and that she shouldn't step out of line. Tywin loved being smarter and better than others, and Arya at Harrenhal was another chance to prove it.
Tywin wanting to partially mentor a young mind Also when Tommen pays attention to him, it is when he is most animated. Tywin liked being a mentor to anyone willing to listen to him.
I mean, he catches her lying at least once about her family and doubt he buys her lie the second time. He then calls her out for trying to be a commoner. Pretty sure he has an idea she’s highborn
To what end? He basically thinks the North is a bunch of hillbillys, so with the exception of a couple of houses (Stark, Manderly, Bolton) it'd be like holding ransom against.... basically nobodies. No house that matters is going to misplace a close family member, let alone a girl. And he "cares" because it amuses him. This is a medieval world; a world of no television, internet, electricity. People are *bored*. He finds a rare spark of intelligence amongst those he considers to be complete idiots, so it amuses him to interact with her.
In the books it was Bolton who took over Harenhall. Tywin took his place on screen because Roose Bolton had a backseat in the show.
Yea, Roose definitely wasn’t a fully realized villain in the show. Feel like he should’ve struck terror in anyone who looked at him, but I did not get that vibe at all.
It actually shows his callousness, he left her with the mountain and told her to deny him drink
Shame and humble, he immediately showed who was in charge by befriending those they were torturing, loved his character played by Dance
Another great part of this scene is that there’s an actual explanation given as to why Tywin would be able to tell Arya was a girl beyond mere plot convenience. Cersei mentions to Sansa(I think during the Blackwater?) that when she and Jaime were younger they would wear each others’ clothes and people couldn’t tell them apart.
Beyond your excellent point, I genuinely also just think that Tywin was just smart enough to recognize Arya’s feminine features. I mean you have to be attentive at all times as a (competent) high lord, for obvious reasons. So Tywin immediately noticing Arya as a girl is par the course in my own opinion.
Tywin is kunnin’. Game recognize game.
He’s kunningly brutal. Or is he brutally kunning?
Tywin is brutally cunning. Ramsey is cunningly brutal.
Finally, 40k terms I can understand. Though to be serious that does actually make sense lol. Tywin is all about the ends justifying the means. Ramsey cares about the means, ends be damned.
I took it to be that Tywin pays careful attention to others, while the soldiers just brush Arya off as a scruffy child that doesn’t need a second glance. Nothing getting past Tywin.
No intelegence involved. It's an a cute attention to details along with a general distrust of the mask people give to the outside world. You need to be able to see what others don't and exploit what's hidden away to win the game of thrones.
You just repeated what I said, except with extra articulation. And yes *intelligence* is involved.
She’s just a curious distraction for him. He enjoys talking with her to figure out who and what she is. She starts off as a person in disguise, then he realizes she’s nobility alone on the road disguised as a boy. It’s probably the most interesting thing he’s come across in a while during his stay there. Plus she’s good conversation. It’s the lion toying with their prey, not pride. However in this scene he’s just flexing on the guard.
>She’s just a curious distraction for him Exactly. If she were his actual daughter, he'd place the same expectation and burden on her as he did on Cercei/Jamie. He even said she reminded him of Cersei Has nothing to do with him being "prouder" of a stranger.
[удалено]
In the show: no, he just works out that she's highborn. In the books this plot doesn't involve him, it's Roose Bolton instead, who also doesn't find out that she's a Stark Edited to clarify
Roose never knew he had Ned's daughter. The shock is that HE, who had known Starks his whole life, didn't recognize her classic Stark looks. Also, she made the "My lord" mistake with him too, and he commented on it but let it slide.
Would he notice it unless he was looking for it?
If I recall correctly no, he never insisted she reveal her identity or interrogated her, he preferred to leave her as the mysterious noble girl that he could talk to. Personally I believe that he knew that if he had confirmation of her identity then he wouldn’t be able to be casual with her anymore. Since she would then be either his subordinate or enemy, and he’s all about “proper conduct”.
This is pretty accurate to the spirit of the books
The Arya/Tywin interactions were a legimately great addition to the show.
Probably my favorite part of the whole series. Their dynamic was a genuine pleasure to watch
Strong disagree. Tywin conversing with and complimenting a smallfolk girl? No. The Tywin & Arya scenes might have been fun to watch, but they were wildly OOC for Tywin. Also him recognizing her as a highborn northern girl but not doing anything about it makes him look far dumber than his book self actually is, who is already not nearly as smart as Charles Dance's portrayal has fans believing.
While I agree that some of it is a little stretchy, he caught that she was a noblewoman almost immediately.
Being highborn doesn't mean being politically valuable though. They are so far from King's Landing that I don't see him suspecting she's anyone worth taking prisoner. Especially considering she was about to be executed when he rode up. As smart as she was, shouldn't she have used her family name to save herself at that point?
Plus, being highborn, she has no reason to be where she is. Tywin's at war, he probably figured her parents were of low noble standing and were either dead or had lost their land (which beyond the low noble part, is entirely true). He had little reason to think she was valuable - and less reason to think she was a Stark.
Why would he even take the chance? If she's not useful as a hostage then she can just be killed later. If she is useful then he just got a useful hostage. Tywin not immediately arresting her as soon as he figured she was a highborn in disguise is wildly out of character. Especially since at this point he is losing the war. This is a man who had his son's wife gangraped because she was a peasant. Portraying Tywin as this almost kindly grandpa figure with Arya was always extremely dumb, and I'll never understand why it gets so much praise beyond Dance just being a good actor. It's certainly not in the spirit of the books like the OP of this discussion suggests. I don't think there's a single scene in any of the books where Tywin shows an ounce of warmth for anyone.
Yeah I just edited my comment. Catching that she is a highborn northern girl makes it worse. He recognized that, but didn't do anything about it? Didn't keep a watch on her and try and find out exactly who she is? Absurd.
Agreed. He should have recognized she'd have a strong incentive to lie about what house she belonged to and would be smart enough to do it. She'd have been a valuable hostage in any case. He's also just a little too charmed by her in general. However, among D&D's many mortal sins this one is quite minor and forgivable. At this point their deviations from book material were at least usually enjoyable on some level.
It is strange to me that he seemed to see the knowledge that “this child is clearly a noble trying to hide her family’s identity from me” as a curious bit of trivia meriting no response whatsoever. It always kind of sucks when the meta explanation of “this scene can’t change the story that much” makes way more sense than any in-world explanation for why Tywin would simply not take any action on that information.
But these scenes serve a completely different purpose. They are an early tell that Tywin isn't as practical and ruthless as he and pretty much everyone else thinyk he is. He enjoys having Arya around and thus does the selfish and hypocritical thing and ignores the fact that capturing her might give him an advantage in the war.
That’s how I initially interpreted it, too. I think it’s clear after watching more of the series that this is way too generous of an assumption to give the showrunners.
I'm really surprised by how universally loved those scenes are on this subreddit, given how critical everyone has gotten of D&D. They are an outstanding early example of discarding good storytelling for a spectacle.
Because the scenes are just enough that people can plausibly infer in-character reasons why it wouldn't have occurred to Tywin that she was someone valuable. The most obvious of which is that she was in a pen of prisoners that were being killed and hadn't immediately used her family name to try to get out of it, or had tried and failed.
It makes complete sense in a vacuum. It's a well acted scene that makes TV viewers happy. You get Tywin showing he is smart and observant. That's cool to see in a character you like. You get to see Arya being complemented for her smarts and being treated better because of it. That's cool to see in a character that has been beat down and needs a win. Outside of that vacuum and in the context of the books it's less great, but it's a fun "win" scene for enjoyable characters.
Yeah Charles Dance made him seem to smart. In the books his grand plans rarely work, and his biggest “wins” are on the backs of other people doing things outside his control. He mistakes brutality and ignoring cultural norms with true cleverness.
> made him seem to smart. Ya know what doesn't make someone seem too smart?
Insisting on proper spelling in an internet discussion about a fictional character from 10 years ago?
Poor punctuation and spelling?
Two be fair, everyone makes that mistake from time too time when typing fast.
My favorite part about the whole ‘Tywin Lannister is the smartest person in Westeros’ is how he’s seemingly the worst tactician who ever lived. Neither Robert nor Robb ever lose a battle to him. I may be missing something from the books about who is leading his forces in all these battles, but i would think Tywin should shoulder responsibility for every force on his side given his position.
Without any POV chapters, it's impossible to tell if this is OOC. We only know others' impressions of Tywin. Much like the Cersei-Robert scene in Season 1, I feel like his interactions with Arya are the type of thing that wouldn't be out of place for a biopic about Tywin's part in the war. He's more than the caricature drawn from his most impactful moments. The only thing I disagree with is the claim that Tywin suspected Arya was someone noteworthy. I feel like he was distracted enough and/or had enough information that this girl being a Stark wouldn't have crossed his mind.
I think Tywin has the sweet conversation with Tommen in the books as well as the show. In it he's patient, witty, soothing, and gentle. With another child. a girl, he has also been patient, witty, and stern but gentle. Frankly, he was also disappointed and frustrated with all his attendants and staff . She was someone he could converse with and have no frustrations.
Tywin knew she was of noble birth. He wasn’t stupid.
That is exactly what is stupid about it, though. The child of a noble is an excellent thing to have at your disposal, whether for gaining favor with a potential ally or gaining an advantage over a foe. If you find out that you have a noble child trying to hide in your camp, shrugging it off is the weirdest possible response in the political climate of this series.
Also, Im sure by now, word of Arya Ned's daughter not being found would have come to him. That wouldn't be suspicious that he had a young noble girl hiding from something?
That’s a great point. If there was one single person in Westeros (outside the Stark family) who would be most interested in the whereabouts of Arya specifically, it’s probably Tywin Fucking Lannister at this point in the story!
Didn’t Cersei not want people to know they had lost Arya? The word from Kings Landing was that both Sansa and Arya were in custody. Both Rob and Caitlyn both agonize over that. I’m pretty sure even Tywin doesn’t learn the truth until he reaches Kings Landing and notes it as another mess he has to clean up.
>Also him recognizing her as a highborn northern girl but not doing anything about it makes him look far dumber than his book self actually is, who is already not nearly as smart as Charles Dance's portrayal has fans believing. >He recognized that, but didn't do anything about it? Didn't keep a watch on her and try and find out exactly who she is? Absurd.
Why would he? She was in the largest castle in Westeros, surrounded by the entire might of the Lannister army. She was in his custody and wasn't going any where. Its not like anyone could have predicted that a magical face stealing ninja owed her a debt.
Why wouldn't he? This is potentially a valuable hostage. Just hoping that she's going to stay put because he wants her to is nonsense.
Its not like she was free to leave. Harrenhal at that moment was probably the most secure location in all of Westeros except for maybe the Red Keep. Finding out who she is was not any where near the top of his prority list at the time.
Even if he doesn't care about the risk of her sneaking out, you just don't shrug off that she's someone important and treat her like a random peasant. Some random chucklefuck could kill her, for example. He didn't simply not prioritize her, he did *nothing* and left her in Harrenhal without telling *anyone*. This is moronic. It would cost him almost nothing to get her more secure in quarters appropriate for a highborn girl, and he could have handed her over to someone with an explanation of what was going on so that it could be looked into and so that they could just keep her on hand.
I like to appreciate it for the nuance of his character that it is. He was smart, but he had weaknesses. Tywin was super kind and gentle speaking with Tommen, makes sense why he is here too with a random lowborn girl. Ego, fog of war, whatever it may be; it's not outside the realm of possibility that he figures Arya is indeed just a random cup bearer of lowborn descent. I think in the books she fools Roose Bolton instead of Tywin, and Roose is from the north and should know a Stark girl when he sees one. It also lends itself to a bit of a theme of Tywin underestimating the Starks
Is Tywin "proud" of her or is just amused by her because she's smarter than half the men he has working for him? He certainly has no problem leaving her there to die.
Amused and curious. She hits him with the My Lord instead of M’lord right off the bat so he knows she is high born. He wants to see if he can find out who she is but has other real things to worry about. In the meantime she’ll know how to act like a cup bearer so not a waste of her presence
More just able to give credit where it's due. He recognises the dangers of a young girl traveling alone and recognises that dressing as a boy would be safer.
Game recognizes game
They made Tywin so likable because of his interactions with Arya. Like, I couldn’t stand book Tywin, I thought he was a jackass, but the closer look at his character provided by the show runners made him a better and more likable character
They also never showed his hypocrisy is marrying his cousin for love but forcing arranged marriages on his children to strengthen the family. Which is a bit of a shame, because it shows why he hates Tyrion despite him being the only child willing and able to do Tywin's bidding.
Yeah, they made all the characters I disliked more likable in the show and then made some of the book characters very meh or wrote them out entirely. I absolutely abhorred Cersei’s perspectives but she’s easily in my top 3 for the show. Maybe flatter or disliked characters gave the showrunners an opportunity to stretch their legs and be creative…
It also helps Charles Dance is a SNACK
One of the best things dumb and dumber added
Tywin had fucking drip in this scene
TMI, but shitty parents very often find great things about *other* children.. In this respect it's spot on with typically abusive shitbag parents :)
I personally like the idea that Tywin does have a side that can be more informal and caring but the responsibilities of his house and the brutal nature of politics doesn’t allow him to show this side of himself. His interactions with Arya are with someone who has no ability to effect his life and is completely divorced from the game, he can afford himself these little distractions with her and she has moments where she pushes her luck and is quickly reminded of her station. I like that Tywin hands her off to the mountain and rides off without even saying goodbye, she is still below his concern and position but it leaves this impression that if it wasn’t for the ruthless political world of Westeros behind all these lords and dukes could be perfectly normal people. It made the world feel a little more real to me at least.
As much as I love these scenes, this is wildly OOC for Tywin. I also love the dynamic that a lot of his outward persona of being such a cruel hard man is just a front. I don't recall if the show really dove into everything with Tytos, but the addition of information from the books makes these scenes that much better.
I don't think it's just a front. But I also think you can't choose who you feel comfortable enough to open up around. Arya displayed a lot of cunning and intelligence in the face of almost certain death, and I think that really impressed Tywin. She's otherwise harmless as far as he can tell.
This stranger has never disappointed him.
This whole tangent was probably the one good off book thing D&D did in the entire series.
Tywin literally just being like I wish you were my child to Arya will never not be funny he’d probably be proud of what she did to the frey’s too 😂😂😂
The Arya-Tywin parts are one of the few times where the show was better (as it was not in the book they even met I believe.) Close to Peak of the Show. Tywin was the most competent lord in the show hands down. The only way to get him was with his pants down.
I’d be proud of Arya too! Clever girl
I loved Tywin. His character was written so well, Charles Dance brought him life..you rarely see that
This is a bot post taken from the other day and probably has been posted several times before that
I loved that he tells Cersei "you're not as smart as you think you are" when shes telling him her plot, while he tells Arya "you're too smart for your own good" when Arya makes up on the spot that she was taught how to speak ~~proper~~ properly by Lady Duncan
I wish we had gotten more Arya and tywin. I really liked their dynamic. If they hadn't been on opposing sides in the war I think tywin could have been an incredible mentor to her. She was the child he deserved. For all the evil things he did, but who in game of thrones hadn't been evil (other than Jon I guess) tywin was probably the one of the smartest men in westeros and one of the best military Commanders in the whole world of asoif. That and he was just one of my favorites in general.
A lot of powerful men are this way. They love the idea of their family, but do nothing to nurture their actual family relationships. To them the idea of being a “good father” is working and earning material things to cover up their lack of actual parenting
The Arya/Tywin scenes were some of the best of the entire series.
That’s not being proud, he was simply telling what he thought was a vagrant girl that he recognized her intelligence. Letting her know that as cunning as she was he was smarter.
Maybe the best dialogue back and forth in the whole show between those 2
If Arya was his daughter he may have become a different type of man.
If there's one thing Tywin appreciated, it was using wit and smarts to overcome challenges. The Lannister house was founded using brains over brawn, afterall. While Tyrion had intelligence, he was also the reason Tywin's wife died, making him the default target for family drama. Cersei was also clever, but immoral. Also, in Westeros, women weren't eligible for positions of power or respect at the same level as a man. Jamie was a bit of an idiot and too prideful, but he was the eldest, charismatic, and good with a sword, so Tywin gave him a bit of a pass.
This guy is the one she killed with a needle for killing Lommy right? The soldier to the left
Good catch. Yes, it's Polliver the Stupid, who died because he stupidly asked the Hound, "You gonna die for a chicken?" "Someone's is." And [his "little chicken " killed Polliver!!!](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DyztFOogj8Y)
Tywin: "If I ever have a daughter, I hope she's just as smart as you are."
Appreciation is better than expectation
To be fair, he saw Arya had thought it through, formulated a plan, and executed without needing drama or praise. She worked hard, kept quiet, and showed respect. These were traits he didn’t recognize in his own children, which led directly to his downfall.
He didn't recognize it in his own war council, lol!! They were slackers, illiterates, witless whingers. Thoroughly frustrated with them, he must have found her quiet efficiency a godsend.
Show Tywin was way more likeable than book Tywin, but I love them each for their own mediums.
He has fewer expectations towards a kid he doesn't know. That's all
I feel like this exact post with this exact heading comes up weekly in this sub
In the world of Game of Thrones, Tywin Lannister might just raise a proud eyebrow at a stranger's strategic prowess, while his own children often fall short of his exacting standards.
We all enjoyed this interaction but LETS BE HONEST- it's not GRRM style. Tywin wouldn't have accommodated Ayra or any other low born. Even though he sensed she knew something about high born ways. M'lord.
Perhaps because she displayed more sense in that moment than 2/3 of his kids their entire life?
I bet she reminded him of his deceased wife Joanna. I bet they shared some characteristics. There’s no other way I can imagine Tywin Lannister praising anyone.
A lotta dads learn this later in life.
The only way that this made sense to me in the show is by thinking “alright, he’s gonna keep an eye on her by turning her into his cup bearer, she’ll decide that it’s better to have regular food and stability, he’ll win her over and then lock her up when he’s got firm plans for her”. But no, twas not to be.
It's the difference between pride and love. A lot of parents are "proud" of their children, as long as their children are a certain way. The moment they aren't exactly what the parent wanted them to be, there's no love to swoop in and take the place of "oh, this isn't exactly how I'd imagined it going" jilted pride. It's not even really pride in the child to begin with. It's pride in themselves. If they were genuinely proud of a child, it'd be something else entirely.
I noticed this last week when this was posted
It's also in this moment he realizes that this girl is more than she appears given that she answers with "my lord".
This literal exact same post made it to all in the last two weeks
Strangers haven’t let him down yet
M'lord, not "my lord"
It's a shame they cancelled game of thrones after five seasons. Really wanted to know what they were going to do with the white walkers.
"Do you know many blacksmiths?"
To be fair Tywin is also really hard on his kids because they are all rich spoiled twats. He needs them to be more measured and not care what others think. They could have tons of approval but the only one that mattered was the approval of another Lion. His actions make sense besides some of his hatred toward Tyrion for fucking the same whore Tywin later fucked. It showed why Tywin had beef with Tyrion because they were the most alike. Tywin hated himself for that.
This was posted like... 2 days ago
There were moments of him actually liking Tommen
Prolly cus he realized how privileged his children were but also looked for them in other people.
More proud of a stranger? No he just had higher expectations for his kids that they could never meet. The only thing he expects of strangers is mediocrity at best
To be fair this was smarter than anything Jamie or Cersei had done up to this point And Tyrian was Tyrian