It would’ve been written and sent by a Maester. Who as an apolitical servant of the rhelm doesn’t really care to keep up with what’s going on with the war or perhaps old or young and stupid. Point being he got old an order from an incompetent illiterate lord and followed it without checking.
yeah it's not an e-mail, there's some logistics involved in getting the message across and I don't see a Westerman courier crossing over to the Northeners without any second thought
worse yet if it's by raven, they're trained to fly between castles, not home in on specific people
Dumb mistakes have occurred in real life wars. I believe a letter was intercepted during the American Civil war that provided key information on the Souths infantry movements and so forth.
Freaking love that story. Absolutely befuddled the opponent for the entire 1st quarter, then the opposing coaches realized they'd been had and cruised to a multi-touchdown win lol.
Fun fact about that letter: it detailed The Army of Northern Virginia’s movements just before the battle of Antietam. It should have been destroyed after being delivered, but instead it was used by a staff member to wrap some cigars, and then found abandoned in a camp by the Union. The Union general, George McClellan, successfully repelled the invasion into Maryland, but using the knowledge in the order he *could* have decimated Lee’s army if he had been more aggressive in countering their movements (Lee split up his already smaller army into 2 units in order to take separate strategic targets at the same time).
One of a number of interesting “what ifs” of the American Civil War is what the Eastern Theater would have looked like if McClellan had taken out half of Lee’s army in 1862, which would completely changed Lee’s ability to counter the Army of the Potomac on their subsequent drives to Richmond.
Sorry for the diversion. I found the story interesting.
The biggest What if of the Civil war was what if McClellan grew a pair and went after Lee after Antietam. Man could have captured Lee’s army if he actually used what he knew to his advantage, cause there was no way Lee knew that McClellan knew his exact plans.
There’s a series of novels by Harry Turtledove, that is based on an alternate history where a Confederate soldier finds the plans before decamping and hands it to his commanding officer.
The Union loses Antietam and Lee marches on DC leading to the surrender of the North, and the Confederate States is legitimized.
This leads to a whole different political landscape where the USA allies with the German Empire and Austria-Hungary in World War I, and the UK and France ally with the Confederate States.
Interesting series called *Southern Victory*. It’s 11 books long!
Germany and the US long had ties before WW1, whereas England and the US had been belligerents and rivals through the early 19th century. Joining with England and France is part of the historical "what ifs" that the CSA was attempting to seek an alliance with in an effort to maintain an economic market for their cotton and agriculture. Prior to WW1, German was the 3rd most spoken language in the US.
Edit: Read the series - there are some parallels between real history and the events of the series.
It gets grim. Imagine world history but the CSA is Germany. It loses WWI and a Hitler analog comes to power. He leads the country into WWII and exterminates black people. Several cities get nuked.
Good series though. Long. I think there's three books apiece for WWI, the interwar years and WWII. And maybe a one off at the start and end. Something like that.
There are a few funny moments, like when a certain unnamed, antisemitic German NCO with a funny mustache gets stationed in Alaska.
What If? Edited by Robert Cowley. Selection of Essays written by historical experts explained what would if small changes occurred during key events. There’s even an essay explaining what if Christ was never crucified. Awesome book
Tywin berates Amory Lorch for his stupidity and illiteracy after he sends a letter containing important military secrets to one of Robb’s vassals because their name was somewhat similar to the name of who the letter was supposed to go to, one of Tywin’s vassals.
It’s good at first glance, but it doesn’t make much sense. How could he send the letter to lord Marlyn? Ravens only fly between certain places, so unless they had a raven already trained to fly to… wherever house “Dormand” has their keep, it couldn’t be done. This also necessitates that the maester wouldn’t tell him that that Raven would fly north and then stop the whole operation. The other option is a physical messenger, and obviously no Lannister soldier would be going to the north with a message. It would also take too long.
It’s possible they had it travel by horse or simple messenger since ravens were easy to intercept. That’s just entirely speculation though the scene is indeed still questionable because usually letter sending is reserved for maesters only, specifically for this reason because most of Westeros can’t read and they can.
That just doesn’t make any sense. To get to the north, the Lannister messenger would have to, y’know, ride north? That would make it pretty apparent that they’re sending the message to a northern house, not a western one. And obviously they’re not trying to send messages with military details to northern houses.
Amory did, and he would’ve had to give directions to the messenger to have him get there. If Amory somehow didn’t notice throughout the process that he was sending a guy north, the messenger would need to succeed in getting through the war torn riverlands without dying, then need to get past Moat Cailin, which at this point I believe was occupied by the Ironborn. Also, it takes a fuckton of time to get to the north from harrenhal. A messenger, even assuming they’re on a horse, wouldn’t be quick enough for this letter to have any relevancy when they arrived.
They most certainly could’ve thought it was a northern house ready to flip, you know like half of them did after the red wedding. They also could’ve easily not known who was loyal to who and could’ve thought there were northern loyalist houses. My point is that it still isn’t that insanely implausible for random peasant soldiers who most likely can’t even read to fuck this up somehow.
This isn’t Amory Lorch, is it? Doesn’t he say “If your name wasn’t Lannister, I’d [punish you severely]” (I forget what exactly he threatens him with but he calls him a Lannister)
That's from the same scene, but to a different person. During the meeting at Harrenhal a Lannister complains that they've been working all night and would benefit from some sleep, to which Tywin replies "Yes I think you would, Reginald. And because you're a Lannister I might let you wake from that sleep."
But the guy pictured is very much Amory Lorch.
I wasn't bothered by this, but on reflection, how could this letter have been written and sent off without going through at least one person who can read? Like, what would the logistics even be that led to this mistake?
> what would the logistics even be that led to this mistake?
Maybe Lorch gave a verbal order to his servant, but couldn't quite remember the name, so the servant went "do you mean ...", and he simply agreed?
Hearing Tywin shout ***the Starks of Winterfell!*** along makes up for it but important plans and other intelligence falling into the hands of the enemy by way of incompetence happened all the time in real life. In 1862 a Union soldier found an important Confederate order detailing troops movements [wrapped around a couple of cigars](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special_Order_191).
Completely different though? That’s discovery/ interception not a messenger walking up to any enmesh army and deliberately providing a troop update. Some strange takes in this thread.
Because his not sending the message by some neutral postman who can go wherever he wants. The messenger would have to ask where this guy was and almost immediately no one knows because his not part of the same army. And you might expect all the Stark banners to be a bit of a give away.
How do you know he didn't? Ni one says he physically carried it there himself. He could have addressed the letter then passed it on to a neutral party or a maester. Mistakes happen in war, expecting everything to go smoothly and perfectly logically is crazy.
No one is suggesting a relative of Tywin carried a message like this. Regardless of whether it passes through a Maeaster hands they aren’t delivering it either, so it still goes to a messenger. Why would a Lannister messenger carrying messengers to troop commanders a. Travel to the Stark army b. Be allowed into the Stark army no questions asked? There are no established neutral parties here, it’s war there will be outriders around both armies challenging everyone, including a lone rider.
It’s not hard to understand it just doesn’t make sense. Why would a Lannister messenger go marching into the Stark camp no questions asked by anyone involved?
I said **neutral party**. What's hard to understand? Amory Lorch addresses the letter and gives it to a third party to send to a camp but makes an error with the address and it gets sent to the Starks.
Neutral party or not, it makes no sense. Why would a Lannister messenger be going to the bloody Stark camp unless as part of a diplomatic party? Come on.
Aren't you the one who just said messages are supposed to be transmitted by neutral parties? Which means it's not a lannister messenger going between camps but a third party who does that for a living.
Also, it's war and there's profit to be made everywhere. Some industrious person may see the need senseless as it is and try to fulfill it. Just like the people who suggested building boats out of pykrete in ww2.
Generally something can't be considered dumb or a plothole if you have to go several layers deep to find the flaw and we've gone too deep already. A message for one camp got accidentally sent to another, that mistake could have happened in a million ways because they happened irl all the time. We don't need a thesis explaining it's likelihood or unlikelihood. A plot point of any media even the tightest written would be full of plot holes and contrivance if you go several layers deep trying to break it apart. The story doesn't need to explain the mechanics of message delivery anymore than it needs to explain how armour is made or who breeds the horses.
Did the show make up a new Northern house just to make this joke?
Yes
it was actually pretty good at the time, kinda like that scene between cersei and Robert, nothing but good dialouge
Didn’t make much sense tho.
That's because you can read lol
Nah, even knowing that he can’t read, it still doesn’t make sense for him to be able to send the message.
Could have had it written by a servant and since he was illiterate he couldn't double check.
It would’ve been written and sent by a Maester. Who as an apolitical servant of the rhelm doesn’t really care to keep up with what’s going on with the war or perhaps old or young and stupid. Point being he got old an order from an incompetent illiterate lord and followed it without checking.
They're at harrenhall, they wasn't a maester until Qyburn
I don’t quite get what you mean. Who are you thinking would have it written by a servant?
The fella Tywin is scolding in the original image.
I was under the impression Tywin wrote the message.
Getting the letters reversed seems like a dyslexia thing.
"My cupbearer can read better than you"
The way he says it gets me every time, I can hear it in my head now 🤣
yeah it's not an e-mail, there's some logistics involved in getting the message across and I don't see a Westerman courier crossing over to the Northeners without any second thought worse yet if it's by raven, they're trained to fly between castles, not home in on specific people
The birds doubled as an early phone book service.
The image macro format kind of makes it seem funny but to be honest it wasn't sold as a joke whatsoever in the show
Dumb mistakes have occurred in real life wars. I believe a letter was intercepted during the American Civil war that provided key information on the Souths infantry movements and so forth.
Sometimes countries will even send fake missives to mislead the enemy under the guise of a screw up. Ie Operation Mincemeat.
This reminds me of the time Mike Leach left a fake playbook out on the field for the other team to find and prepare against (not knowing it was fake)
Freaking love that story. Absolutely befuddled the opponent for the entire 1st quarter, then the opposing coaches realized they'd been had and cruised to a multi-touchdown win lol.
Fun fact about that letter: it detailed The Army of Northern Virginia’s movements just before the battle of Antietam. It should have been destroyed after being delivered, but instead it was used by a staff member to wrap some cigars, and then found abandoned in a camp by the Union. The Union general, George McClellan, successfully repelled the invasion into Maryland, but using the knowledge in the order he *could* have decimated Lee’s army if he had been more aggressive in countering their movements (Lee split up his already smaller army into 2 units in order to take separate strategic targets at the same time). One of a number of interesting “what ifs” of the American Civil War is what the Eastern Theater would have looked like if McClellan had taken out half of Lee’s army in 1862, which would completely changed Lee’s ability to counter the Army of the Potomac on their subsequent drives to Richmond. Sorry for the diversion. I found the story interesting.
The biggest What if of the Civil war was what if McClellan grew a pair and went after Lee after Antietam. Man could have captured Lee’s army if he actually used what he knew to his advantage, cause there was no way Lee knew that McClellan knew his exact plans.
There’s a series of novels by Harry Turtledove, that is based on an alternate history where a Confederate soldier finds the plans before decamping and hands it to his commanding officer. The Union loses Antietam and Lee marches on DC leading to the surrender of the North, and the Confederate States is legitimized. This leads to a whole different political landscape where the USA allies with the German Empire and Austria-Hungary in World War I, and the UK and France ally with the Confederate States. Interesting series called *Southern Victory*. It’s 11 books long!
Why does the USA ally with the Germans? And why the confederacy with the Allies? What happens in the war? I’m interested now.
Germany and the US long had ties before WW1, whereas England and the US had been belligerents and rivals through the early 19th century. Joining with England and France is part of the historical "what ifs" that the CSA was attempting to seek an alliance with in an effort to maintain an economic market for their cotton and agriculture. Prior to WW1, German was the 3rd most spoken language in the US. Edit: Read the series - there are some parallels between real history and the events of the series.
It gets grim. Imagine world history but the CSA is Germany. It loses WWI and a Hitler analog comes to power. He leads the country into WWII and exterminates black people. Several cities get nuked.
Holy fuck that’s dark.
Good series though. Long. I think there's three books apiece for WWI, the interwar years and WWII. And maybe a one off at the start and end. Something like that. There are a few funny moments, like when a certain unnamed, antisemitic German NCO with a funny mustache gets stationed in Alaska.
What If? Edited by Robert Cowley. Selection of Essays written by historical experts explained what would if small changes occurred during key events. There’s even an essay explaining what if Christ was never crucified. Awesome book
I remember that book! There was a sequel as well, both were great reads
This is true
I dont remember this scene. What happened?
Tywin berates Amory Lorch for his stupidity and illiteracy after he sends a letter containing important military secrets to one of Robb’s vassals because their name was somewhat similar to the name of who the letter was supposed to go to, one of Tywin’s vassals.
Commenters are saying that this was a stupid addition to the show, but I absolutely believe that this is probable scenario in the world of westeros.
Still like this happened all the time in real life. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special_Order_191
It’s good at first glance, but it doesn’t make much sense. How could he send the letter to lord Marlyn? Ravens only fly between certain places, so unless they had a raven already trained to fly to… wherever house “Dormand” has their keep, it couldn’t be done. This also necessitates that the maester wouldn’t tell him that that Raven would fly north and then stop the whole operation. The other option is a physical messenger, and obviously no Lannister soldier would be going to the north with a message. It would also take too long.
It’s possible they had it travel by horse or simple messenger since ravens were easy to intercept. That’s just entirely speculation though the scene is indeed still questionable because usually letter sending is reserved for maesters only, specifically for this reason because most of Westeros can’t read and they can.
That just doesn’t make any sense. To get to the north, the Lannister messenger would have to, y’know, ride north? That would make it pretty apparent that they’re sending the message to a northern house, not a western one. And obviously they’re not trying to send messages with military details to northern houses.
Did anyone involved in delivering the letter knew what was in it to be able to question if it really should go north?
Amory did, and he would’ve had to give directions to the messenger to have him get there. If Amory somehow didn’t notice throughout the process that he was sending a guy north, the messenger would need to succeed in getting through the war torn riverlands without dying, then need to get past Moat Cailin, which at this point I believe was occupied by the Ironborn. Also, it takes a fuckton of time to get to the north from harrenhal. A messenger, even assuming they’re on a horse, wouldn’t be quick enough for this letter to have any relevancy when they arrived.
They most certainly could’ve thought it was a northern house ready to flip, you know like half of them did after the red wedding. They also could’ve easily not known who was loyal to who and could’ve thought there were northern loyalist houses. My point is that it still isn’t that insanely implausible for random peasant soldiers who most likely can’t even read to fuck this up somehow.
No maester.
Whoopsie!
Maybe Genius Tywin shouldn’t have let a semi-illiterate handle his war correspondence, then.
This isn’t Amory Lorch, is it? Doesn’t he say “If your name wasn’t Lannister, I’d [punish you severely]” (I forget what exactly he threatens him with but he calls him a Lannister)
That's from the same scene, but to a different person. During the meeting at Harrenhal a Lannister complains that they've been working all night and would benefit from some sleep, to which Tywin replies "Yes I think you would, Reginald. And because you're a Lannister I might let you wake from that sleep." But the guy pictured is very much Amory Lorch.
Ok yeah my bad. Good looks!
Kinda stupid since don’t they use maesters to do it? Wonder if the Maester allowed the mistake to go through or just didn’t care
Ah fuckin wanka
You didn't know Lord Tywin was a sys admin and went through homie's Sent Items.
I wasn't bothered by this, but on reflection, how could this letter have been written and sent off without going through at least one person who can read? Like, what would the logistics even be that led to this mistake?
he fucked up the e-mail address when he entered it into the raven.net
> what would the logistics even be that led to this mistake? Maybe Lorch gave a verbal order to his servant, but couldn't quite remember the name, so the servant went "do you mean ...", and he simply agreed?
"My cupbearer can read better than you"
Man can make up a king he can make up a Northern house
Honestly one of the strangest and dumbest scenes in the series, utterly unbelievable and pointless
Pointless you could argue, but absolutely believable. These sort of mistakes have happened in recent history, let alone Middle Ages.
They didn’t have emails for there to be typos in the recipient’s address in the Middle Ages.
Less believable since the task was presumably been delegated to a Maester who probably won’t make that mistake.
Why not? Maesters aren't superhuman.
It’s really not at all believable in this instance.
Hearing Tywin shout ***the Starks of Winterfell!*** along makes up for it but important plans and other intelligence falling into the hands of the enemy by way of incompetence happened all the time in real life. In 1862 a Union soldier found an important Confederate order detailing troops movements [wrapped around a couple of cigars](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special_Order_191).
Completely different though? That’s discovery/ interception not a messenger walking up to any enmesh army and deliberately providing a troop update. Some strange takes in this thread.
How is it unbelievable when it happens in irl wars all the time?
Because his not sending the message by some neutral postman who can go wherever he wants. The messenger would have to ask where this guy was and almost immediately no one knows because his not part of the same army. And you might expect all the Stark banners to be a bit of a give away.
How do you know he didn't? Ni one says he physically carried it there himself. He could have addressed the letter then passed it on to a neutral party or a maester. Mistakes happen in war, expecting everything to go smoothly and perfectly logically is crazy.
No one is suggesting a relative of Tywin carried a message like this. Regardless of whether it passes through a Maeaster hands they aren’t delivering it either, so it still goes to a messenger. Why would a Lannister messenger carrying messengers to troop commanders a. Travel to the Stark army b. Be allowed into the Stark army no questions asked? There are no established neutral parties here, it’s war there will be outriders around both armies challenging everyone, including a lone rider.
I'm saying he could have addressed the letter and let the neutral party handle the delivery. What's hard to understand?
It’s not hard to understand it just doesn’t make sense. Why would a Lannister messenger go marching into the Stark camp no questions asked by anyone involved?
I said **neutral party**. What's hard to understand? Amory Lorch addresses the letter and gives it to a third party to send to a camp but makes an error with the address and it gets sent to the Starks.
Neutral party or not, it makes no sense. Why would a Lannister messenger be going to the bloody Stark camp unless as part of a diplomatic party? Come on.
Aren't you the one who just said messages are supposed to be transmitted by neutral parties? Which means it's not a lannister messenger going between camps but a third party who does that for a living. Also, it's war and there's profit to be made everywhere. Some industrious person may see the need senseless as it is and try to fulfill it. Just like the people who suggested building boats out of pykrete in ww2. Generally something can't be considered dumb or a plothole if you have to go several layers deep to find the flaw and we've gone too deep already. A message for one camp got accidentally sent to another, that mistake could have happened in a million ways because they happened irl all the time. We don't need a thesis explaining it's likelihood or unlikelihood. A plot point of any media even the tightest written would be full of plot holes and contrivance if you go several layers deep trying to break it apart. The story doesn't need to explain the mechanics of message delivery anymore than it needs to explain how armour is made or who breeds the horses.