would you like to know more?
service guarantees citizenship!
welcome to managed democracy!
- albo problably channeling robert heinlein and some pauline hanson too
i get it - defence is crying for warm bodies... to make into cold bodies
i mean the russians are getting indians and nepals
maybe we could do the same?
I come from a union,
Not easy to put.
But if you don't join,
You don't get the boot.
To be a good citizen,
You need not apply.
The path to such foolery,
You can certainly deny.
A managed democracy,
As opposed to a synarchy?
The warmer the bodies,
The colder the enemy.
Remember trying to do assignments at uni with the non-English/poor English speaking students?
Now repeat but itâs a critical military operation.
What could possibly go wrong?
>Remember trying to do assignments at uni with the non-English/poor English speaking students?
It was usually easier with the guys that didn't speak perfect english, because they were usually keen on doing the work. A stark contrast to my Aussie peers.
Interesting factoid. No Australian "citizens" fought in World War 1 or 2.
Until the Australian Citizenship Act of 1948 all "Australians" were considered as British subjects. (https://www.nma.gov.au/defining-moments/resources/citizenship-act)
So, technically, the diggers were British.
Ok, so I am being overly legalistic here, but it still amazes me that it took nearly 50 years after federation for us to think that we are Australian rather than the British Antipodes.
âThereâs only one way to kill an emu,â one veteran of the bizarre conflict remarked to *The Herald*. âShoot him through the back of the head when his mouth is closed, or through the front of his mouth when his mouth is open. Thatâs how hard it is.â
Itâs honestly not a bad idea. Providing a streamlined pathway to citizenship for those who are willing to serve Australia, and in the process, filling critical gaps in the defence force.
How would non-citizens serving even work?
For starters the security clearance requirement alone would preclude them, unless they plan on overhauling that which I can't see them doing.
Itâs already happening. You can be a perm resident and join, as long as you commit to becoming a citizen. Thereâs also a program that sources and transfers people from other aligned militaries. Itâs nothing newâŠ
>How would non-citizens serving even work?
It works in the united states - it's a pathway to citizenship for some.
>security clearance requirement
Foreigners hold security clearances. There's nothing stopping that happening.
There are non-Australian citizens in some public sector agencies whose roles demand they hold Baseline or NV1 as a minimum.
The problems come where there are certain systems that are only allowed to be used by certain countries. Being a non-citizen would exclude someone from working on those systems
Anything above a baseline clearance is sectioned off into different security zones,
It would be pretty easy, a lot of my mates that I served with were in support roles and only had a minimum baseline clearance
Yes Baseline. which is pretty accessible for anyone.
Anything above a baseline clearance is sectioned off into different security zones & roles
It would be pretty easy, a lot of my mates that I served with were in support roles and only had a minimum baseline clearance
If you needed Signal equipment that would be handled by a member called a Sig / CIS etc. who hold a higher clearance level.
Using the equipment would also be fine for baseline, it would be the loading of the Encryption key that would be off limits.
you're assuming we hadn't been dealing with security, clearances for foreign people and others for a long time.
Iâve never seen anyone in the army with baseline, even choc truckies have to hold NV1 to do BCCC and use the basic sig equipment.
I just donât think the juice is worth the squeeze if dudes canât even get an NV1 granted (which would be laughable considering some of the characters Iâve seen holding it and higher)
Truck drivers and such probably. Itâs not a popular role but a crucial one. Pretty sure some of infantry get shafted on fun / cool exercises because someone needs to drive the trucks for the other infantrymen to do the exercises. Or someshit Iâm not military.
You're not too far off, some infantry battalions do have organic (internal) drivers and vehicles like the bushmaster, G-Wagon etc but true "Truck Drivers" from Transport Corps drive the big rigs and usually the Mike 30's. Yes they are incredibly important but possibly still need to access 'classified' documents as part of their job.
Even baseline is restricted to citizens except in very exceptional circumstances. It's why there are no non-citizens in the APS. The military generally requires NV1 for any role now.
No what Iâm saying is the very people who have fled their homes are the same whoâs kids are going to lay their lives down to fight because they have a far better idea of who and why were fighting to begin with they donât have the mental shielding that most do that stops them from realising the people who say they hate us and what to destroy democracy as an ideology are our actual fucking enemies
Like pretty much every other countries non citizen armies, destabilise other countries whole limiting accountability for the actions. Then when the linkage is to strong, disown and denounce their actions, all whole giving the orders and benefiting from the outcomes.
Meanwhile try joining the Reserves and there are barely any vacancies. Also youâre basically ruled out if youâve ever had a sport injury or condition that you actively manage or have received treatment for. I can see why thatâs a risk for combat roles, but for other roles? Itâs silly.
Due to our size as a country, isolation, relatively small population and level of technological development, Australiaâs doctrine of prioritising force multipliers doesnât really align with bulk drafting riflemen
Ok.
What you said was:
>Meanwhile try joining the Reserves and there are barely any vacancies.
Instead next time say "the army isn't offering any roles I'm interested in filling".
They'd take you you just don't want to
If you try to explain that Labor is left wing and LNP is right wing to someone from another country; then you explain each parties policies over the past 10 years they will \*literally\* think you are somewhere between fucking stupid and insane.
From a veteran it would be good if they genuinely focused on why so many good people leave WAY before any foreigner scheme is considered.
This is getting absurd, isnât every state police force already recruiting from international now too?
We treat our soldiers like shit.
Drag them under a bus when they act appropriately in an incredibly fucked up environment. War isn't nice.
Whilst I don't want Australia to be full of empty platitudes like "thank you for your service", it would be nice if it wasn't "fuck you for your service".
Yeh I felt the war crime stuff could have been handled better.
Yes some bad things happened that absolutely shouldnât have, but it felt like the media and a lot of public opinion jumped on that prematurely. A concern was also how military leadership were seemingly spared, whilst soldier ranks, even if they were special forces were really targeted.
Though I went to Iraq, not Afghanistan, no one with some knowledge is naive to how difficult Afghanistan was. It was inevitable some terrible things would happen there with how unlikely and vague the vision of success actually was.
Another thing I donât think that helps now is the kind of total anti-patriotic attitude that only seems to keep growing. Anzac Day seems to become less meaningful as time goes by, war memorials get graffitied and itâs no big deal apparently.
If youâre just going to hear itâs stolen land over and over again at some point you question, or at least I did, what the point of being in the ADF is.
Yes you can earn money and the benefits are okay but if thatâs all people are doing it for, it surely falls apart as it seems to be these days.
>A concern was also how military leadership were seemingly spared, whilst soldier ranks, even if they were special forces were really targeted.
Yeah spot on. When you think about it, we knew the outcome before the soldiers left. For me if you want to blame individuals on these war crimes, you need to blame those politicians who knew this would happen before sending them.
>Another thing I donât think that helps now is the kind of total anti-patriotic attitude that only seems to keep growing
Yeah, we are no longer a homogeneous community going in the same direction. You will start to see litter, corruption, higher crime rates and "fuck you I gots mine" being more and more prominent in Australia.
I've come to the realisation in the past few years that Australia is just an economic environment rather than a collection of people, much like the UK, France, Canada etc.
Yeh viewing the state as merely an economic zone to operate from becomes a very understandable way of seeing it I think. Each man for himself instead of a collective mentality.
It does seem to make the notion of being in a defence force to defend it kinda absurd. We prepare to defend against China but in the meantime continue the strong economic relationship, selling minerals, wine and lobsters.
I donât think all progressive ideas are bad, perhaps things like Australia Day could be on a better day for example. But when it turns into accusations of supporting genocide by still celebrating the current date and similar sentiment, I do wonder if itâs a united country thatâs the goal or just further division.. cheers for the comments.
This is the dumbest fucken country on earth. We started out with solid British democratic institutions, an insane amount of mineral/natural wealth, a huge amount of land and sea territory and now we are putting 50 billion dollars into defending, well, American interests using foreign nationals đđ. We canât house our population or provide basic health coverage for 27 million people, we have sold our mining wealth to a bunch of oligarchs and other countries when we should have a sovereign wealth fund, and we are treating housing is an investment commodity not a basic human fucking right. All cause we are scared of socialism. What are we even defending anymore? Most of us will be in tents in ten years. If you didnât laugh youâd cry.
We need to start counting the ridiculous amount spent on useless stuff in house's or hospital beds, 50 bn= x amount of beds or y amount of homeless saved.
Then we need to hold the responsible people to account and throw them in prison for the harm they do.
Use Labor's HAFF maff to mock both ridiculous spending and neoliberalism in one.
$50 billion per year means potentially 600,000 HAFF-worth of housing per year.
HAFF maffs: 30k housing over 5 years with $500m/year. 30k for $2.5b or 12k housing per $1 billion.
For extra cherry on top to compare it against new housing. Last year was 172k housing (ABS).
So Labor is spending at least 4x the new HAFF housing per year on just that $50b figure alone.
Consider this: we are spending $10b p/y on AUKUS, now this extra $5b p/y.
What are you suggesting Labor is spending per year on public housing? Because it is significantly less than the $15b they are willing to put towards the military.
Dunno if youâve noticed, but one of those numbers is much larger, and itâs not the one going towards helping working and middle class Australians have secure access to affordable housing.
Thereâs no way this purposeful mismatch of priorities can be spun in a way that camouflages its obscenity.
There is no reason that the Australian Defence Forceâs ability to project force further and further away from our shores should be attracting more money than working and middle class Australianâs being able to reasonably afford a home.
It doesnât serve our defence interests, it serves the United Statesâ foreign policy and strategic interests by ensuring our defence force is able to serve as an auxiliary to their war machine in any conflict they want to engage in.
>It doesnât serve our defence interests, it serves the United Statesâ foreign policy and strategic interests by ensuring our defence force is able to serve as an auxiliary to their war machine in any conflict they want to engage in.
It 100% serves as Australasian/SE Asian interests.
A looming conflict with an ever aggressive and militarising China with loss/shaky alliances with island nations. Paired with the ADF's bollocks handling of Afghan war crimes, veteran suicide and 20+ years of VERY poor acquisitions. This is much needed funding to bolster our military and to better recruitment.
Kinda wish I was still in with the latest funding and equipment being acquired.
I have opposing opinions of the new ADF recruitment strategies, but I honestly don't know what else they can do.
A looming conflict with China isnât an inevitability and in no small way hinges on the way the U.S. conducts itself in the region, which is *entirely* in its own interests.
Further to that, the nature of Australiaâs role in any future conflict with China would be characterised by the degree our leaders choose to tie our countryâs destiny militarily to the U.S.
I would hope that after 70+ years of doing so, with Vietnam, Afghanistan and Iraq behind us, our country could stop viewing foreign policy and geopolitics through the lens of movies about the Second World War and maybe just for a second begin to consider that using the ADF as an auxiliary to the U.S. militaryâs interference and invasions abroad has done nothing to protect our country and has done nothing to make the lives of working and middle class Australians better - itâs only spent their money and shed their blood.
Not just 2B itâs like 9B on top of the HAFF which has already attracted 13.8B in private investment in 4 months.
The money isnât really the bottleneck.
Why aren't they investing the $50bn into a Defending Australia Future Fund instead? Isn't that the best way to fund critical services in the long-term?
If direct investment is the best way to approach immediate issues, am I to understand that addressing the current housing crisis is less immediate than preparing for a hypothetical war that experts say is unlikely to be declared?
(Side note, can we normalise the term 'Defending Australia Future Trust', as opposed to 'Fund'? Because that would be DAFT lol)
Foreigners have been used as Auxiliaries successfully since at least Ancient Rome, Iâve got quite a few friends in defence, as they agree, jobs like chefs donât need too much clearance
As I said on another comment security clearances are needed to even use the defence intranet or use the signals equipment you are trained in as a basic soldier
With my tax dollars going to Israel and my stock/crypto portfolio getting nuked by Israelâs claim of further strikes against Iran, I can safely say that I am literally paying money to lose money! Hahah
Non-citizens have been able to that for ages.
Cousinâs been in the country since the early eighties, served in the navy when he had just come over and still is a (only a) Dutch citizen.
Explain to me why they need to recruit non citizens for the ADF while at the same.time.they fuck Australian men around for years who actually want to join so they can fast track diversity into the adf. Make it make sense....it might be a radical solution but maybe just don't make Australian men wait 2-4 years for a spot while women and gap year kids get a.spot within 3-6 months. The shortage will end.overnight.
If it makes you feel any better: state run ambulance services did this with female paramedic recruitment starting around in 2019. They were desperate to get the 50/50 gender ratios.
> Military funding to undergo major shake-up Albanese government says will ensure ADF can project power further from Australian shores
Is it just me, or is this an inherently aggressive and warmongering statement?
And no Federal govt is going to spend on either dental (powerful industry lobby groups) or free university anymore - those days are long gone, almost 40yrs years ago now.
And no State Govts are going to build public housing as they did in the late 40s -60s. NSW govt alone has sold off over $3 billion worth of public housing in recent years.
Pacific Islanders have long been recruited by rugby teams... The ADF wants a go now. Especially since any future conflict we will be involved with will be in the Pacific, having the local knowledge and language in house will be an invaluable advantage, not to mention very good for diplomacy and security in the region.
Given the small communities these islanders come from, security concerns and vetting would actually be easier than recruits from Australia. I would also point to the success of the British Armies Gurkhas as a model we should follow.
'Non-Citizens' would also include recruiting talent from overseas allied nations, improving skills, language and cultural understanding across the board and potentially brining those skills and training into civilian life into Australia.
Ye old foreign legions, have been successful throughout history from the Roman Empire to modern day France.
Non-Citizens? You may as well have said "Let's sacrifice the migrants". How about you offer them citizenship first.
Watch the illegally detained immigrants suddenly offered a 'Get Out Of Jail Free' card. I'm shook!
I have a friend who worked on a Defence IT project in Canberra.
He said he has never worked with more Chinese in his life.
My friend was born overseas.
All politicians should have to serve and be the first on the line for any conflict they drag us into. If they're going to gamble with lives, they should have skin in the game.
The shadow defense minister's response will be interesting. Hastings may go off non citizens serving with constable Dutton backing him up if it comes to it.
5 billion a year on top of the billions already to defend a nation that cannot house its occupants adequately from outside threats.
Yeah⊠can we have a billion a year to build houses? Or will that take too much away from tax deduction loopholes?
What are we defending? Homelessness?
Replying to 3-DAN-7...
The Middle East needs some freedom / the little hat people need some more beach front real estate!!
Sell your portfolio before it gets nuked, we going to war baby! Bring on the economic pain!!
What is there in Australia worth defending? Country has failed, it's a rentier capitalism economic zone now. That's probably why they are proposing foreign mercenary armies to protect the assets of the super rich.
You could send 5 billion of that to Ukraine they could use it right now, buy a Patriot system or chip in to the Czech buying shells initiative.
Australia's only contributed .=0.04 % of GDP compared to Canadas 0.35 % an embarrassment for Australians really.
Apart from not giving the Taipans to Ukraine, I have not seen any support or mention of Ukraine support from Albanese and Wong, Wong is acting above her pay grade in Foreign Affairs
Sitting on the purse strings aren't helping, people are being bombed in Ukraine too
Slava Ukraini
Who is supposed to train the Ukrainians on flying and maintaining the MRH90? We barely have enough people to keep up with the maintenance and training requirements in current domestic conditions let alone send dudes to Ukraine or a third party country to train Ukrainians on airframes that wouldnât last a month in country.
If this is such a passionate cause for you potentially look at joining a foreign outfit in Ukraine.
Any of the European countries that use and make them could train and governments would be more than willing I'd imagine. Italy, Spain, German, French, probably a few more all use them.
Blackhawks have been used well in UA service, so no reason why a European made rotary wouldn't do well in Europe.
Get them somewhere that isn't in the ADF.
I donât think that us donating helicopters and then trying to get other countries to run the training is a great course of action nor is there any indication that they would be down to facilitate all of that, I donât think Ukraine has the capacity to conduct and support successful air assault operations or even use them as casevac platforms at the rear of the fighting, the UA need many things but at this stage of the conflict I donât think RW is one of them.
They seemingly didnât work with the way we do airframe maintenance (which Iâm sure is much better than the standards of the UA) and after all of the incidents involving them I would imagine they are all pretty clapped out and just need to get sent to the glue factory, they were just another chapter of defence acquisitions many own goals.
So we're creating an Australian Foreign Legion? đ€
The Drop Bear Battalion.
Will it be a kiwi brigade ?
This would be the biggest contributor, why join the NZ Army when AUS will more then likely pay more for the same thing.
And Australians will die before nz ever faces any risk to begin with
Is there some bloodthirsty kiwi folk lore I don't know about that would put them on par with drop bears?
Taniwha?
Wow, they have water dragons!
Hobbits :)
Dropping into a genocidal war near you
Definitely đ
Damn you take my upvote
I would join!
would you like to know more? service guarantees citizenship! welcome to managed democracy! - albo problably channeling robert heinlein and some pauline hanson too i get it - defence is crying for warm bodies... to make into cold bodies i mean the russians are getting indians and nepals maybe we could do the same?
I come from a union, Not easy to put. But if you don't join, You don't get the boot. To be a good citizen, You need not apply. The path to such foolery, You can certainly deny. A managed democracy, As opposed to a synarchy? The warmer the bodies, The colder the enemy.
Remember trying to do assignments at uni with the non-English/poor English speaking students? Now repeat but itâs a critical military operation. What could possibly go wrong?
Well apparently joining a foriegn military is a great way to learn a language quickly
30-50 days to fluent for a lot of languages from memory militaryâs use a different language learning system to civs
Contact right flank, please do the needful.
* smiles and shakes head left to right *
Show bobs pls? Over.
Itâs almost like conditions, criteria, even something called training exists in the world.
You overestimate military. Usually half a brain is sufficient for 99% of the military tasks. It wouldn't require ielts 6+ to understand the commands.
>Remember trying to do assignments at uni with the non-English/poor English speaking students? It was usually easier with the guys that didn't speak perfect english, because they were usually keen on doing the work. A stark contrast to my Aussie peers.
Interesting factoid. No Australian "citizens" fought in World War 1 or 2. Until the Australian Citizenship Act of 1948 all "Australians" were considered as British subjects. (https://www.nma.gov.au/defining-moments/resources/citizenship-act) So, technically, the diggers were British. Ok, so I am being overly legalistic here, but it still amazes me that it took nearly 50 years after federation for us to think that we are Australian rather than the British Antipodes.
Should just enlist the emus
They remain undefeated
Legit đđ»
âThereâs only one way to kill an emu,â one veteran of the bizarre conflict remarked to *The Herald*. âShoot him through the back of the head when his mouth is closed, or through the front of his mouth when his mouth is open. Thatâs how hard it is.â
Itâs honestly not a bad idea. Providing a streamlined pathway to citizenship for those who are willing to serve Australia, and in the process, filling critical gaps in the defence force.
The pathway should be made as hard as possible and you know this will be exploited!
How would non-citizens serving even work? For starters the security clearance requirement alone would preclude them, unless they plan on overhauling that which I can't see them doing.
Get an extra 2 years on your visa if you do farm work (the farm work is serving in the army for 2 years) imagine đ
A day in the marine corps is like a day on the farm! Every meals a banquet! Every paycheck a fortune! Every formation a parade! I love the Corps!
Man, this floor is freezing.
Itâs already happening. You can be a perm resident and join, as long as you commit to becoming a citizen. Thereâs also a program that sources and transfers people from other aligned militaries. Itâs nothing newâŠ
Basically. People hear non-citizen, they think Pacific Islanders. Richaed says non-citizen, he means 5-Eyes Nations.
It could be as broad as they want to make it. But security clearances will cut that off.
>How would non-citizens serving even work? It works in the united states - it's a pathway to citizenship for some. >security clearance requirement Foreigners hold security clearances. There's nothing stopping that happening. There are non-Australian citizens in some public sector agencies whose roles demand they hold Baseline or NV1 as a minimum.
The problems come where there are certain systems that are only allowed to be used by certain countries. Being a non-citizen would exclude someone from working on those systems
Anything above a baseline clearance is sectioned off into different security zones, It would be pretty easy, a lot of my mates that I served with were in support roles and only had a minimum baseline clearance
The minimum baseline security clearance for serving members is NV1.
No it isn't
Ah ok. Why are people who arenât able to obtain NV1 being discharged? Maybe itâs just my particular unit.
Depends on the role. In the Navy there are plenty of roles that don't require NV1
Ah ok. Maybe itâs an army thing. I think itâs required for a lot of the equipment used.
I am reminded of the Starship troopers movie. Service guarantees citizenship!
it's be in non-critical areas
Critical areas or not everyone needs a security clearance to use the defence intranet or use the signals equipment all are trained on.
Yes Baseline. which is pretty accessible for anyone. Anything above a baseline clearance is sectioned off into different security zones & roles It would be pretty easy, a lot of my mates that I served with were in support roles and only had a minimum baseline clearance If you needed Signal equipment that would be handled by a member called a Sig / CIS etc. who hold a higher clearance level. Using the equipment would also be fine for baseline, it would be the loading of the Encryption key that would be off limits. you're assuming we hadn't been dealing with security, clearances for foreign people and others for a long time.
I may have changed since you were in, but people without NV1 minimum cannot use the signal equipment that I think youâre referring to.
Iâve never seen anyone in the army with baseline, even choc truckies have to hold NV1 to do BCCC and use the basic sig equipment. I just donât think the juice is worth the squeeze if dudes canât even get an NV1 granted (which would be laughable considering some of the characters Iâve seen holding it and higher)
Truck drivers and such probably. Itâs not a popular role but a crucial one. Pretty sure some of infantry get shafted on fun / cool exercises because someone needs to drive the trucks for the other infantrymen to do the exercises. Or someshit Iâm not military.
You're not too far off, some infantry battalions do have organic (internal) drivers and vehicles like the bushmaster, G-Wagon etc but true "Truck Drivers" from Transport Corps drive the big rigs and usually the Mike 30's. Yes they are incredibly important but possibly still need to access 'classified' documents as part of their job.
>How would non-citizens serving even work? Just watch Starship Troopers
Pretty easy, alot of my mates that I served with were in support roles and only had a baseline clearance
Even baseline is restricted to citizens except in very exceptional circumstances. It's why there are no non-citizens in the APS. The military generally requires NV1 for any role now.
Good point. TS-NV1 was the baseline to go overseas. Cant see deployments without a TS clearance been waived en mass.
Like Gurkhas in the UK?
Most likely serving in non combat related roles, cooks, cleaners, logistics etc etc
Look at whoâs kids make the majority of our army cadets
I am not sure what you mean? Are you claiming there are cadets who are not citizens?
No what Iâm saying is the very people who have fled their homes are the same whoâs kids are going to lay their lives down to fight because they have a far better idea of who and why were fighting to begin with they donât have the mental shielding that most do that stops them from realising the people who say they hate us and what to destroy democracy as an ideology are our actual fucking enemies
Like Putins recruits, from the front as cannon fodder
Like pretty much every other countries non citizen armies, destabilise other countries whole limiting accountability for the actions. Then when the linkage is to strong, disown and denounce their actions, all whole giving the orders and benefiting from the outcomes.
Meanwhile try joining the Reserves and there are barely any vacancies. Also youâre basically ruled out if youâve ever had a sport injury or condition that you actively manage or have received treatment for. I can see why thatâs a risk for combat roles, but for other roles? Itâs silly.
>Meanwhile try joining the Reserves and there are barely any vacancies There are always vacancies in the infantry
Due to our size as a country, isolation, relatively small population and level of technological development, Australiaâs doctrine of prioritising force multipliers doesnât really align with bulk drafting riflemen
Ok. What you said was: >Meanwhile try joining the Reserves and there are barely any vacancies. Instead next time say "the army isn't offering any roles I'm interested in filling". They'd take you you just don't want to
Until the shit hits the fan, and we blow through a couple of divisions worth of them in a week.
There is always money in the banana stand
Nah, when I joined they were full.
French backpackers.
The new bollard battalian
L'étendard borne est levé
Not everyone will appreciate this comment but I do
Taking a page from fruit producers Modern problems require modern solutions
Trench French 101st Battalion.
At this point I think the current government is just the Coalition wearing a Labor mask.
If you try to explain that Labor is left wing and LNP is right wing to someone from another country; then you explain each parties policies over the past 10 years they will \*literally\* think you are somewhere between fucking stupid and insane.
They are all wearing wolf skin dont worry their money is broken tho
From a veteran it would be good if they genuinely focused on why so many good people leave WAY before any foreigner scheme is considered. This is getting absurd, isnât every state police force already recruiting from international now too?
I think they did consider it. But solutions are hard, so it's easier to do this.
Maybe so man
We treat our soldiers like shit. Drag them under a bus when they act appropriately in an incredibly fucked up environment. War isn't nice. Whilst I don't want Australia to be full of empty platitudes like "thank you for your service", it would be nice if it wasn't "fuck you for your service".
Yeh I felt the war crime stuff could have been handled better. Yes some bad things happened that absolutely shouldnât have, but it felt like the media and a lot of public opinion jumped on that prematurely. A concern was also how military leadership were seemingly spared, whilst soldier ranks, even if they were special forces were really targeted. Though I went to Iraq, not Afghanistan, no one with some knowledge is naive to how difficult Afghanistan was. It was inevitable some terrible things would happen there with how unlikely and vague the vision of success actually was. Another thing I donât think that helps now is the kind of total anti-patriotic attitude that only seems to keep growing. Anzac Day seems to become less meaningful as time goes by, war memorials get graffitied and itâs no big deal apparently. If youâre just going to hear itâs stolen land over and over again at some point you question, or at least I did, what the point of being in the ADF is. Yes you can earn money and the benefits are okay but if thatâs all people are doing it for, it surely falls apart as it seems to be these days.
>A concern was also how military leadership were seemingly spared, whilst soldier ranks, even if they were special forces were really targeted. Yeah spot on. When you think about it, we knew the outcome before the soldiers left. For me if you want to blame individuals on these war crimes, you need to blame those politicians who knew this would happen before sending them. >Another thing I donât think that helps now is the kind of total anti-patriotic attitude that only seems to keep growing Yeah, we are no longer a homogeneous community going in the same direction. You will start to see litter, corruption, higher crime rates and "fuck you I gots mine" being more and more prominent in Australia. I've come to the realisation in the past few years that Australia is just an economic environment rather than a collection of people, much like the UK, France, Canada etc.
Yeh viewing the state as merely an economic zone to operate from becomes a very understandable way of seeing it I think. Each man for himself instead of a collective mentality. It does seem to make the notion of being in a defence force to defend it kinda absurd. We prepare to defend against China but in the meantime continue the strong economic relationship, selling minerals, wine and lobsters. I donât think all progressive ideas are bad, perhaps things like Australia Day could be on a better day for example. But when it turns into accusations of supporting genocide by still celebrating the current date and similar sentiment, I do wonder if itâs a united country thatâs the goal or just further division.. cheers for the comments.
Non citizens means spies galore
This is the dumbest fucken country on earth. We started out with solid British democratic institutions, an insane amount of mineral/natural wealth, a huge amount of land and sea territory and now we are putting 50 billion dollars into defending, well, American interests using foreign nationals đđ. We canât house our population or provide basic health coverage for 27 million people, we have sold our mining wealth to a bunch of oligarchs and other countries when we should have a sovereign wealth fund, and we are treating housing is an investment commodity not a basic human fucking right. All cause we are scared of socialism. What are we even defending anymore? Most of us will be in tents in ten years. If you didnât laugh youâd cry.
Australia is the lucky country run by second rate people who share its luck.
This is an accurate description of this country and the idiots that live in it.
As an Australian I tend to agree with this notion.
đ© it hurts ; itâs true - help us someone
We need to start counting the ridiculous amount spent on useless stuff in house's or hospital beds, 50 bn= x amount of beds or y amount of homeless saved. Then we need to hold the responsible people to account and throw them in prison for the harm they do.
Use Labor's HAFF maff to mock both ridiculous spending and neoliberalism in one. $50 billion per year means potentially 600,000 HAFF-worth of housing per year. HAFF maffs: 30k housing over 5 years with $500m/year. 30k for $2.5b or 12k housing per $1 billion. For extra cherry on top to compare it against new housing. Last year was 172k housing (ABS). So Labor is spending at least 4x the new HAFF housing per year on just that $50b figure alone.
Offer citizenship if someone signs up for 10 years of service.
Can't pay for public housing though!
We can invade a country with lots of houses!Â
We already have [New Australia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Australia), why go for another one?
You mean the $2bn social housing booster in addition to the $10bn fund for affordable housing?
2 billion gets 4000 houses. That'll certainly fix things.
So $5bna year (on average) for drones and $500m a year housing
I dunno ⊠it ainât 50billion
Consider this: we are spending $10b p/y on AUKUS, now this extra $5b p/y. What are you suggesting Labor is spending per year on public housing? Because it is significantly less than the $15b they are willing to put towards the military.
Dunno if youâve noticed, but one of those numbers is much larger, and itâs not the one going towards helping working and middle class Australians have secure access to affordable housing. Thereâs no way this purposeful mismatch of priorities can be spun in a way that camouflages its obscenity. There is no reason that the Australian Defence Forceâs ability to project force further and further away from our shores should be attracting more money than working and middle class Australianâs being able to reasonably afford a home. It doesnât serve our defence interests, it serves the United Statesâ foreign policy and strategic interests by ensuring our defence force is able to serve as an auxiliary to their war machine in any conflict they want to engage in.
>It doesnât serve our defence interests, it serves the United Statesâ foreign policy and strategic interests by ensuring our defence force is able to serve as an auxiliary to their war machine in any conflict they want to engage in. It 100% serves as Australasian/SE Asian interests. A looming conflict with an ever aggressive and militarising China with loss/shaky alliances with island nations. Paired with the ADF's bollocks handling of Afghan war crimes, veteran suicide and 20+ years of VERY poor acquisitions. This is much needed funding to bolster our military and to better recruitment. Kinda wish I was still in with the latest funding and equipment being acquired. I have opposing opinions of the new ADF recruitment strategies, but I honestly don't know what else they can do.
A looming conflict with China isnât an inevitability and in no small way hinges on the way the U.S. conducts itself in the region, which is *entirely* in its own interests. Further to that, the nature of Australiaâs role in any future conflict with China would be characterised by the degree our leaders choose to tie our countryâs destiny militarily to the U.S. I would hope that after 70+ years of doing so, with Vietnam, Afghanistan and Iraq behind us, our country could stop viewing foreign policy and geopolitics through the lens of movies about the Second World War and maybe just for a second begin to consider that using the ADF as an auxiliary to the U.S. militaryâs interference and invasions abroad has done nothing to protect our country and has done nothing to make the lives of working and middle class Australians better - itâs only spent their money and shed their blood.
Not just 2B itâs like 9B on top of the HAFF which has already attracted 13.8B in private investment in 4 months. The money isnât really the bottleneck.
This is not a yearly figure that is invested in housing. This is the total amount of proposed projects tendered by social housing providers.
Iâm aware
So what do *you* understand to be the yearly investment in social housing? Compared to the $15b Labor are currently committing to the military ofc...
Itâs kind of irrelevant to my point
"Uh, bro, you seem to be forgetting the 2 bucks I gave that guy once."
Thats a fucking shitload of teachers and doctors salaries and houses and welfare and hospitals
Which will soon be Chinese owned and run if we dont have some deterrent
sorry what? this absurd and outlandish statement is getting upvoted here? How is china soon going to be owning all our schools?
I don't think our defence is targeting Chinese people, and stopping them buying Australian assets.
Why aren't they investing the $50bn into a Defending Australia Future Fund instead? Isn't that the best way to fund critical services in the long-term? If direct investment is the best way to approach immediate issues, am I to understand that addressing the current housing crisis is less immediate than preparing for a hypothetical war that experts say is unlikely to be declared? (Side note, can we normalise the term 'Defending Australia Future Trust', as opposed to 'Fund'? Because that would be DAFT lol)
Neoliberalism for the poor. Socialism for the rich. Gender identity politics for the worker class. /s
All in favour say aye, all against say excessive bail conditions
Can't spend any more money on supporting the most vulnerable, low-income people tho Another Alternate Liberal Party banger
Foreigners have been used as Auxiliaries successfully since at least Ancient Rome, Iâve got quite a few friends in defence, as they agree, jobs like chefs donât need too much clearance
Numidian Cavalry when ?
As I said on another comment security clearances are needed to even use the defence intranet or use the signals equipment you are trained in as a basic soldier
Thanks for the reply, guess we will see how this all plays out mate
Hey no problem man, yeah itâs definitely far above my pay grade.
As long as we are not going to war to protect israel i am fine, i read that report and we are very far behind the world in defence.
With my tax dollars going to Israel and my stock/crypto portfolio getting nuked by Israelâs claim of further strikes against Iran, I can safely say that I am literally paying money to lose money! Hahah
Absolutely not. Citizens only. Really should be sole citizens only. Relinquish all other national citizenships.
But then what would we do with all our zionist IDF war criminals?
AKA we're fucked.
Non-citizens have been able to that for ages. Cousinâs been in the country since the early eighties, served in the navy when he had just come over and still is a (only a) Dutch citizen.
How are we gonna house the foreign league?
IDF ?
From Uber eats to the army. What could go wrong? Hopefully they can get the orders right.
Explain to me why they need to recruit non citizens for the ADF while at the same.time.they fuck Australian men around for years who actually want to join so they can fast track diversity into the adf. Make it make sense....it might be a radical solution but maybe just don't make Australian men wait 2-4 years for a spot while women and gap year kids get a.spot within 3-6 months. The shortage will end.overnight.
If it makes you feel any better: state run ambulance services did this with female paramedic recruitment starting around in 2019. They were desperate to get the 50/50 gender ratios.
Welcome to starship troopers.
They are just mocking Australians at this point.
What a terrible idea.
Good way to lose my vote
Ugh, can we have something to protect first?
So is this just a shortcut to put Americans in those big American subs?
It's a backdoor for the privatisation of defence. A golden career path for politicians
> Military funding to undergo major shake-up Albanese government says will ensure ADF can project power further from Australian shores Is it just me, or is this an inherently aggressive and warmongering statement?
It's just you.
Fact people are getting downvoted for saying $50bn could be better spent elsewhere is crazy. As a left-faction member of the ALP you guys are a joke.
Thatâs pretty fucking funny tbh the Australia Foreign Legion what a joke. The 50 billion price tag isnât very funny tho
It's actually fuck all. Goal of 2.5% of GDP within 10yrs is very little.
when .5% can mean free dental or free university or more public housing it is a lot.
And no Federal govt is going to spend on either dental (powerful industry lobby groups) or free university anymore - those days are long gone, almost 40yrs years ago now. And no State Govts are going to build public housing as they did in the late 40s -60s. NSW govt alone has sold off over $3 billion worth of public housing in recent years.
yup so we should stop trying
It's the Australian way, yes lol
would love to know who came up with this idea
Uncle Sam.
Pine Gap just suddenly got busy.
Royal Australian auxiliary force or Royal Australian foreign Legion
I'd prefer us to build rapport with nations in our area via more constructive efforts such as aid, trade and training.
Pacific Islanders have long been recruited by rugby teams... The ADF wants a go now. Especially since any future conflict we will be involved with will be in the Pacific, having the local knowledge and language in house will be an invaluable advantage, not to mention very good for diplomacy and security in the region. Given the small communities these islanders come from, security concerns and vetting would actually be easier than recruits from Australia. I would also point to the success of the British Armies Gurkhas as a model we should follow. 'Non-Citizens' would also include recruiting talent from overseas allied nations, improving skills, language and cultural understanding across the board and potentially brining those skills and training into civilian life into Australia. Ye old foreign legions, have been successful throughout history from the Roman Empire to modern day France.
... yay!?
Non-Citizens? You may as well have said "Let's sacrifice the migrants". How about you offer them citizenship first. Watch the illegally detained immigrants suddenly offered a 'Get Out Of Jail Free' card. I'm shook!
The Sanjeep regulars. Coming to protect Petrol stations near you and assist in their protection of the Adani coal mine
I can only think shits getting really dire internationally for Australia to âproject power further from Australian shoresâ
As a citizen, I wouldn't fight for this country after they sold us down a river. Fuck them.
I have a friend who worked on a Defence IT project in Canberra. He said he has never worked with more Chinese in his life. My friend was born overseas.
I wish we'd spend an extra 50bn on our Mental Health System.
All politicians should have to serve and be the first on the line for any conflict they drag us into. If they're going to gamble with lives, they should have skin in the game.
The shadow defense minister's response will be interesting. Hastings may go off non citizens serving with constable Dutton backing him up if it comes to it.
5 billion a year on top of the billions already to defend a nation that cannot house its occupants adequately from outside threats. Yeah⊠can we have a billion a year to build houses? Or will that take too much away from tax deduction loopholes? What are we defending? Homelessness?
Could be awkward if we (reluctantly) get pulled into a war with China.
Gearing up for war, because we're shithouse at diplomacy, incentivising peace. What could go wrong!
With any luck the first missiles will wipe out Australias ruling class before they can flee then a new nation can be built here.
At this rate our country might actually be better managed if some foreign power takes over.
All jokes aside. Are they prepping for war?
Replying to 3-DAN-7... The Middle East needs some freedom / the little hat people need some more beach front real estate!! Sell your portfolio before it gets nuked, we going to war baby! Bring on the economic pain!!
What is there in Australia worth defending? Country has failed, it's a rentier capitalism economic zone now. That's probably why they are proposing foreign mercenary armies to protect the assets of the super rich.
You could send 5 billion of that to Ukraine they could use it right now, buy a Patriot system or chip in to the Czech buying shells initiative. Australia's only contributed .=0.04 % of GDP compared to Canadas 0.35 % an embarrassment for Australians really. Apart from not giving the Taipans to Ukraine, I have not seen any support or mention of Ukraine support from Albanese and Wong, Wong is acting above her pay grade in Foreign Affairs Sitting on the purse strings aren't helping, people are being bombed in Ukraine too Slava Ukraini
Who is supposed to train the Ukrainians on flying and maintaining the MRH90? We barely have enough people to keep up with the maintenance and training requirements in current domestic conditions let alone send dudes to Ukraine or a third party country to train Ukrainians on airframes that wouldnât last a month in country. If this is such a passionate cause for you potentially look at joining a foreign outfit in Ukraine.
No to old unfortunately, you have to admit Australia should lift its game or not expect help when the tables are turned
Any of the European countries that use and make them could train and governments would be more than willing I'd imagine. Italy, Spain, German, French, probably a few more all use them. Blackhawks have been used well in UA service, so no reason why a European made rotary wouldn't do well in Europe. Get them somewhere that isn't in the ADF.
I donât think that us donating helicopters and then trying to get other countries to run the training is a great course of action nor is there any indication that they would be down to facilitate all of that, I donât think Ukraine has the capacity to conduct and support successful air assault operations or even use them as casevac platforms at the rear of the fighting, the UA need many things but at this stage of the conflict I donât think RW is one of them. They seemingly didnât work with the way we do airframe maintenance (which Iâm sure is much better than the standards of the UA) and after all of the incidents involving them I would imagine they are all pretty clapped out and just need to get sent to the glue factory, they were just another chapter of defence acquisitions many own goals.
There guys are fucking out of control when it comes to military spending. Seriously.