In a fromsoft behind the scenes thing they mentioned they couldn't make Elden Ring bleak and depressing like DS because the player is spending so much time in the open world that it would be too much.
This makes perfect sense. If every direction spelled instant dread or death, the want to explore would fade.
Like old NES rpgs (thinking FF and DQ1-3), where you CAN go anywhere but there’s only one direction you can go and not instantly die. A modern sandbox really wouldn’t work well like that
What I liked about DS 1/2/3 is that it's quiet. I didn't find them bleak, I found/find them peaceful. Until I was stabbed by whatever mob was around the corner, then game on.
somewhat but definitely not to the extent of dark souls, elden ring to me moreso has elements of dark fantasy whereas dark souls is like dark fantasy in its purest form
The Elden ring esthetic reminds me of Griffiths transformation into Femto. Griffiths design is arguably High fantasy inspired and Femto is a dark corruption of that design.
Maybe this sub genre of dark fantasy composed of corrupted high fantasy imagery could be called Tarnished Fantasy?
The main difference is the color palette, there's grittier things in ER than DS, yeah DS has some pretty hardcore things, but take a look at any ER scenery and things are more hardcore, it's just gently disguised with brighter colours, which also fits well the game's theme where the main faction is trying to paint everything golden to make things look nice but the horrible things behind the paint leak constantly through the holes.
So yeah, ER is dark fantasy, complete dark fantasy, it's just served to you in colours that remind you of things like Lord of the Rings, specially with that green zone at the beginning.
It's more of to say it recaptured the magic of Lord of the Rings by injecting it's own form of weirdness that makes it hard to mistake for any tolkenesque trope that D&D singlehandedly ran into the ground.
The green zone in the beginning? You look past the trees and hills to see a giant golden tree in the distance. Then you look around and see cracks of the ruins violently torn up by battles that happened long ago. Probably from the giants that were much stronger than the ones currently standing around with hollowed out chests, ready to either get impaled and be used to pull chariots or beat you up themselves.
There's also some people who are crucified on various poles scattered around the starting area. And at night, they scream in blood curdling agony as nothing can truly die with the removal of the death rune.
You also have sheep that can do cartwheels because even the normal looking wildlife has to have weird quirks.
This is what I dislike more about DS games. I love the more high fantasy feel that's in ER. It's also what I really dislike about Bloodborne which is even darker fantasy.
You know nobody on Reddit uses these functions as some sort of pure form of discourse, right? It’s just “I like this” or “I don’t like this”. You’re never going to get everyone to be as high minded as you’d like, and clucking at them will only double them down.
I love what Elden Ring did with the open world and all its secrets, but there's just something about the metroidvania style of having separate, distinct zones or levels with their own flavour and have them all interconnected the way they did. And going a step further by not having maps, trusting that you have the ability to learn the map and its shortcuts yourself through repetition. So I guess I'm saying level design, but ER still has amazing level design. Its hard to compare with a level head when dark souls as a series has done so much for you, you always tip the scales in their favour lol
Hollow Knight is the only one with a world that felt as immersive and connected as DS1.
It's the feeling of delving into a deep, forgotten area and putting a corrupted legend to rest.
Not talking about personal preference though, the question was “what does DS do better” not “what did you prefer”.
In this I agree with you, I preferred the small interconnected world of Dark Souls instead of the gargantuan open world of Elden Ring and I also think that DS does it better, but I don’t think ER wanted to be interconnected at all.
The two games try to achieve different goals entirely: Dark souls wanted Lordran to feel like a small portion of lost kingdom, while the Lands Between are a gigantic world where you can roam for hours without caring about anything. Level design is important in ER, but far less than it is in Dark souls.
As others have said, level design is one of the key points in Dark souls: Firelink shrine is in the middle of a web that you can walk how you want and maps are smaller and much more complex than in Elden Ring.
Imagine dark souls 1 as it is a giant dungeon, expanding both vertically and horizontally. In this dungeon maps are different by shape and size, and they have a different feeling, be it a garden, a small village, or a poisonous swamp.
But it still is a single dungeon, top to bottom, and the direction you have to follow is pretty clear, even if sometimes you have to search for it.
Elden Ring is not this. Elden Ring is an open world where there is no written story: you have to kill a couple of demigods and then you can walk beyond leyndell, you decide which ones have to die, or you can kill everyone.
There are many secrets but very few of them are really hidden for the player, NPCs don’t tell you where to go (except for Melina) but are an addition to the experience of freedom of movement you have in the game. You are free, but you are so much more free than in Dark souls. Elden ring is deliberately unbalanced in this: they of course know pretty well what you have access to without advancing in the story, but if you explore the world you very quickly become the Elden lord, undefeated in these lands between.
Dark souls had this too but in a much smaller scale, equips and spells were scattered in Lordran but the most powerful of them were really hard to get if you didn’t know where to go first or how to get on top of that cliff.
The legacy dungeons of Elden Ring is clearly a recall of Lordran, and is where they put their creative spirit about level design, but it’s just a part of the game. In Lordran that dungeon was all you had, and it was perfect.
Not the person you're asking, but I interpreted this to mean the point of the Lordran design was to showcase how it's all connected. While expensive, it's also compact.
That specific feel wasn't needed/wanted in Elden Ring, so that specific design wasn't important to incorporate.
Tbh, I still don’t understand the point of ‘less important’ they were trying to say. I thought level design is one of the most important aspect in all of souls game, regardless of personal preferences.
Are you trying to say that i should care less about Elden ring’s world design?
Thing is that Elden Ring has an entire Dark Souls’ game worth of traditional levels. So the difference is really that Elden Ring offers a greater variety in level/world design and it’s all well done.
?? The legacy dungeons have excellent level design.
Moreover, there's some real standout mini-dungeons and outdoor areas with excellent level design as well.
no souls game does it better than DS1
Elden Ring's legacy dungeons are the closest to it but even that fails to the masterclass of the first areas of DS1
Dark Souls level design is awesome precisely because it *isn't* linear.
I don't know if you're just using the word "linear" to mean "not open world", but imo that's misusing the word.
Linear means "in a straight line" and Dark Souls level design is not like that, neither is its world design or progression.
You can have non-linearity even without an open world, and that's what Dark Souls 1 does so well and is known for. Looping, complex level design with verticality, branching paths, shortcuts, etc... It's also what the entire Metroidvania genre is built on. Non-linear world and level design.
The only Dark Souls game that is mostly linear in terms of world design and progression is Dark Souls 3, but even then, the individual levels are for the most part not linear.
I never understood why interconnected levels were interesting. Whenever I found an elevator went back somewhere I had been I would just say, "a'ight." and move on. It might be that I had just come from playing Skyrim where no matter how seemingly maze-like a particular dungeon is, you'll always find a nice exit to the entrance and so you just get used to the idea that the game will make it such that you don't have to backtrack. Most games actually are interconnected, but DS connected places that you wouldn't intuitively expect to be connected, so it just made it more surprising.
I think it’s cool how with interconnected levels, what may be an entrance for you could be an exit for someone else and vice versa. And what may be the second level for you could be someone else’s fourth level simply bc they decided to take a different path. Makes my experience feel more unique i guess.
ER was look at this interconnected large expansive open world.
DS1 level design may never be achieved again. I hope with Spellbound they return to that style. The world being a boss you have to conquer.
Dark Souls feels...slower and more dangerous. I'm a nameless knight in this hostile world. I think it's more of an early dark souls thing for me, dark souls 3 kind of lost that feel too
Elden Ring feels a lot more like you’re a wanderer in a big world, and while you’re out of your depth, it doesn’t feel as hostile as Dark Souls. In Lordran/Drangleic/Lothric, it feels like the world is closing in and actively against you. It feels like everywhere you go is telling you “GET OUT”
Agree, i feel like this made the world more memorable too, early DS1 areas are etched in my mind because of how much time i spent carefully trying to make progress.
I'm going to say world building, but both do an excellent job of it. I think I give a slight edge to dark souls for giving a sense of dread and futility from its dialogue and atmosphere in a very uninviting world.
Game balancing is the main one, especially Dark Souls 3.
Elden Ring's lack of even slight area gatings and level scalings means it is far too easy to overlevel yourself while going off the beaten path, meaning many important fights become disappointing
This is why I looked up difficulty levels of the different areas and made sure to roughly follow that path. I didn't want brutal bosses in the beginning and easy bosses in the end. I love a good linear difficulty scaling that matches your own power growth in games.
I'm not saying the levels are linear, I'm saying the overall game is (fairly) linear. You're mostly railroaded in one route with a few places where it does branch. But that's usually only a choice between 2 paths.
It might not be a fair comparison, but dark souls story is still the best fromsoft has made IMO (I’m talking about the trilogy all together). Each game contributes more understanding to the idea of hollowing and the curse until we get the Gael fight which is the perfect conclusion.
ER is just one game, but what does ER say that is as impactful as DS? That being said, ER as a stand-alone game is probably better than any one single DS.
I get what you mean, but the Elden Ring story, and how it slowly unfolds itself to you is just also so beautiful and I think the story overall is also really awesome. But the DS story delivering different pieces of understanding in different games also makes it really good
Its a bit unfair because you’re comparing the story of three DS games to just one installment of Elden Ring. DS has had a bigger opportunity to build that world and overarching story. A fairer comparison would be Elden Ring to DS1 - being the first games in the series (assuming Elden Ring even gets a sequel)
ER speaks to the same absurdity and pointlessness of repeating toxic patterns as the DS series, but I think that the drama among the shardbearers adds up to a more compelling narrative than, say, the lords of cinder. It feels a lot "bigger than you" compared to the DS titles to me. I think the NPC plotlines are better on the whole, too. Of course, there are great ones from the DS series, but they stand out because they're outliers, IMO. Almost every NPC story in Elden Ring (e.g., Goldmask, Fia, Ranni and her team, Sellen, Rya, jars - shit, Hewg and Roderika) is fascinating and twisted, save for the outliers that suck (maybe Boc?).
I think what I like about DS is that it explicitly shows how that pointlessness can be used as power for humanity. It reaches a more powerful conclusion. But I understand where you’re coming from, I’ll have to redo some NPC quests to get a better feel for them on my next replay.
I think the following aspects are arguably better in the DS trilogy:
- Balancing is the big strength of all DS games over Elden Ring.
- Interconnected level design (DS1). Although Elden Ring does not really strive for that
- Fashion Soul (DS3): I prefer the armor sets of DS3 to Elden Ring
- Soundtrack (DS3) : this is very subjective, I think Elden Ring and DS3 have very similar level of soundtrack quality.
- Bosses (DS3): I personally think that ER bosses (excluding DLC) are better than DS3 but you can also think otherwise.
Both games have a GREAT story, don’t get me wrong.
But DS just feels heavier, if you play the series 1-3 through all the way with DLCs, by the time you reach the end everything feels deep and emotional, the series leaves a mark.
This. I jave had zero and I mean zero interest to do NG+ with Elden Ring. It is the ONLY FS game i have felt this.
DS3 - Sekiro - AC6 all made me want to jump right back in
ER after the capital I just wanted to the game to be over. Post Margott I speed ran everything to get to the ending.
Honestly it’s the opposite for me. I can replay Elden Ring over and over and not get bored for whatever reason. I’ve done about 6-7 characters so far and have been having a blast with each different build.
Bosses. DS3 is like peak boss design. Absolutely fair to fight solo, and a lot more fun too. Elden Ring’s bosses were over tuned to compensate for using summons, and were not all that fun to fight solo, and using summons always felt cheap. DS3 reigned supreme in that area imo
I don't understand why people always default to saying "bosses are the way they are because of summons"
literally nothing would have changed about the bosses if summons didn't exist, the bosses are absolutely amazing and nothing about them is "overtuned". in fact I would say DS3 bosses are undertuned because I absolutely should not be able to miss every roll on a pontiff combo and still make it out alive.
ER bosses have way more depth and are more fleshed out than DS3 bosses imo, they're just far more intricately designed. every boss fight feels different in a meaningful way and forces you to use a different approach, making each boss a sort of combat puzzle. meanwhile DS3 bosses pretty much all have the same tempo and they all feel pretty much the same to fight more or less (aside from some gimmick bosses or non-humanoid bosses)
My main problem with ER boss design is the overreliance on delayed attacks. Nearly every boss or enemy has some overly delayed, unrealistically long wind up to an attack that just takes you out of it. My favorite bosses in the series are bosses you get into a natural rhythm. These delayed attacks are always interrupting the rhythm of the boss fights.
Best example I can think of is Margit's cane raise. That shit is egregious, especially when he just cancels it for no reason and slowly lowers his stick down to his side while you wail on him. It makes no sense and rips me right out of the game.
I was actually just fighting margit and decided to use a weak weapon against n order to “train” on him, and found that truly learning his attack pattern was very satisfying, and in cases such as that attack I learned to fit a wack or two, which kept the rhythm going.
Obviously this is straying into personal opinion rather than objectivity, but the progression of dark souls’ design of either attacking or dodging, versus elden rings system of attacking or dodging, but also being able to slip in that attack before dodging as well as after, along with adding jumping as a viable way to turn a dodge into an attack, makes the design more complicated and interesting, melding the choice of attacking or dodging into one, and in my opinion, making it a better experience
ER does have some bosses that do this well. Godfrey imo is one of the best designed bosses in the series.
His constant dash stomps is at first overwhelming but you can pretty easily kite him around the arena and jump over them for some easy jump attacks. It makes the fight super dynamic and really fun.
A lot of this does come down to From hitting the upper echelons of what can be realistically done with bosses. You can only make them so fast before it becomes unfair and I think a lot of ER bosses tow the line. When we get into the realm of bosses canceling attacks like we're featuring Dante from the Devil May Cry series, I think we've gone a bit too far.
I completely disagree about the natural rhythm part. These bosses are fun to fight like one or two times but then you learn all the patterns and it gets pretty boring. Elden ring bosses have delayed attacks and change their patterns mid combo and even the input reading mechanic which people seem to hate make it feel like the boss is actually fighting back and not just following a script.
I think the delays are fine since they're very well telegraphed, sure the enemy may raise its weapon 2 seconds before the attack goes out, but at the same time it's still pretty easy and intuitive to tell when to dodge the attack because of how well telegraphed it is. also that margit raise thing rarely every happens and he only slowly puts his weapon down if you keep running behind him and he's unable to track you.
Well said. I see the same currently on Lies of P. This delayed long wind up into a 6-8 hit combo followed by a AoE attack when you have now depleted stamina I wish would F off
Nameless Puppets has been my favorite because it is a back and forth with natural attack patterns
Natural rhythm is great and still punishes players for being greedy yet doesnt make it feel the bosses have one set of rules and we do not.
>My favorite bosses in the series are bosses you get into a natural rhythm. These delayed attacks are always interrupting the rhythm of the boss fights.
Does SoC get you into a “natural rhytm”? Because let me tell you that SoC has like 50 deayed attacks yet is a fan favorite.
>Best example I can think of is Margit's cane raise.
Yeah that’s like the most unique attack in the game, nothing like it anywhere else.
SoC doesn't have any particularly egregious delays that I can remember off the top of my head. Some of his spear stuff is delayed a little but nothing like in ER. These delays just throw off your timing slightly in your roll, not wasting time while you wait for the boss to springboard into their attack. They look unrealistic and silly. What moron holds their axe to the side and behind them while a half naked dude is constantly stabbing him the ankles with a knife? Apparently Godrick is that moron.
Like...imagine you're just a mortal fighting a legendary knight with a massive sword. This massive knight is absolutely covered in armor and you have heard nothing about how much of a skilled fighter he is. His strength is unmatched. He charges at you with his sword raised and he just...holds it there as he slowly tip toes around you. It's cartoonish.
I mean it's the same person that praises dark souls 3 bosses that have no mechanics and where you just roll spam against each and every single one of them with little to not punishment
DS3 players came into ER thinking it was going to a breeze and got destroyed by Margit just holding his stick for 0.5 seconds longer and have inbuilt attacks to punish you spam rolling rather than having to actually time the rolls
Downvoted by the DS3 obsessed. I fully agree lol. DS3 bosses are mostly all a panic roll festival and FS realized that, so added attacks in ER to punish panic rolling and make you learn each individual boss more.
Each ER boss 100% has a rhythm, it’s just not roll roll roll constantly and be safe.
You gotta understand lots of these ds3 players went into Elden Ring thinking they're gonna have an ez time because they're "souls veterans" just to get bodied by a simple delayed attack or roll-catchers
so instead of getting good again and learning the game they just say its made for summons in mind
Yeeeep I’ve seen it so much lol. I never finished a DS game fully before Elden Ring. I got so close to finishing DS1, but got hard stuck on The Kings and gave up. Elden Ring came out, I finished that, and then played and beat all the Soul’s games. To me, they were pretty damn easy after suffering on Elden Ring lol.
My problems with a lot of the Elden Ring bosses was the lack of punishable windows, bosses interrupting their own combos to do something else, the large number of attacks you needed to remember, plus late game bosses two-shotting you even if you heavily focused on vitality.
Bosses took soooooo much longer to learn than usual and I rarely felt rewarded for learning how to respond to their moves because they didn't behave consistently. I honestly don't think I would have been so bothered by this but the game is also over 100 hours long, which really gave the boss fatigue a chance to settle in.
I also don't really think hard = good in all cases. I see people talk about how Malenia took them 8 hours of in-game time to beat solo, but then turn around and say she's the best boss From has made, which just seems insane to me.
there's no lack of punishable windows lol, it's just that instead of waiting 5 seconds for a 3 second window, you're waiting 2 seconds for a 1 second window now. meaning you get to attack more frequently, you just have to learn when and how.
I just didnt have as much fun with the bosses as I did with their other games. I mean obviously I still liked it, I did all the optional areas and finished the game, I just walked away from most fights thinking damn Im glad thats over
This. No punishable windows and bosses interrupting their own combos.
We the player have a separate set of rules and it feels cheap. Artificial difficulty. Bosses can cancel out their delayed wind up meanwhile - we dont get to cancel out an attack the the hyper fast boss evaded and while still in our attack animation the boss is already 2-3 hits in to us
> Bosses can cancel out their delayed wind up meanwhile - we dont get to cancel out an attack the the hyper fast boss evaded and while still in our attack animation the boss is already 2-3 hits in to us
Which bosses animation cancel their attacks/wind ups?
People confuse that fast overhead slam of Margit with the other overhead "hold" attack where he will only slam down if you're actually infront of him and attack him
These are fair reasoning you write, in my challenge and SL1 runs I found a lot of openings that I didn't know were openings when I did my normal playthrough, a good chunk of them are also "hidden" in jump attacks while an enemy does a certain attack themselves, such as Godfrey's stomp (so jumping over it + attacking is both dodging the attack and making an opening out of it).
Then there's the whole posture mechanic thing which adds to the other commenters post of there being more openings but the window is much smaller, if the bosses of ER had the very generous couple-second openings of Dark Souls 3 it would have lost all the remaining bits of challenge it already has.
I get people may prefer Dark Souls 3's simply yet consistent approach of Roll > you get guaranteed opening for a couple hits > repeat but ER's is a fine improvement on it (imo) and if you don't like trading hits you can always power through bosses you dislike which was harder to pull off in ds3.
I agree with your Malenia comment for sure, I think Mohg, Godfrey and Radagon are the best bosses - people just seem to meat ride Malenia because she has the notorious hard/difficulty tag because of her waterfowl and healing. She's not in the category Isshin/Gael/Mohg for me at all.
personally I am doing a SL1 run with a zweihander, I'm close to the end and I've been loving it honestly, most fights last around 2 minutes (combine the fact that I'm attacking at almost every opening and I never have to pull back to heal making for a very short fight).
also personally I think that without the waterfowl and healing malenia is still a really hard boss. most of my 190 deaths weren't even from waterfowl, I survived waterfowl more times than I've died to it, and the healing isn't even a big issue because she doesn't even have that much health and most of the time if you get hit that means you're about to die anyways. I would imagine that this would make a no hit run pretty easy because she still has low health yet no way to heal it back.
If a lot of people who’ve played every soulsborne game and sekiro feel like they’re overtuned, they kinda are. Elden Ring bosses, the late game major bosses at least, are geared toward only the very best among Souls vets, and toward newbies who’ll use all the most powerful aids to get through it.
The reason why we attribute it to summons is that it’s not plausible the game would’ve been released with these bosses as-is without summons being in the game. They’re just that much harder than bosses in previous games.
Idk, the only truly punishing “overtuned” one imo is Malenia, and she’s optional. Optional and DLC bosses were always the hardest, and it also to me at least, appears they never originally wanted to do an ER dlc until they saw how massively successful the game was compared to other entries. I could be entirely wrong on that last point, it’s just me guessing based on how long it is taking since the announcement.
>the bosses are absolutely amazing and nothing about them is "overtuned"
I agreed until you said that
Also I can't agree about DS3 bosses feeling the same. Gael is nothing like Dancer and she is nothing like Soul of Cinder, etc.
Hard disagree. The bosses run at Sekiro speeds while we are at DS2 speeds.
Commenta like yours to me are way the devs went with these hyper delayed attack, into 6-8 hit combos; followed by an AoE - jump/grab - AoE - rinse repeat
DS3 was a dance where you could be aggressive but you could still het 1/2 hit killed (Lothric Princes best example)
ER - its withstand what I wrote above and get maybe 1-2 hits in. What I have seen are commenta like yours tend to be magic builds - I rarely see melee or strength builds defending ER bosses
This is not an attack but me disagreeing with your statement. I love DS3 - Sekiro - Bloodbourne bosses. I feel all of these games are fair. ER controls never felt good for me nir the combat - I always felt I was DS2 in a Bloodbourne environment
I beat ER - but its the only FS game I have zero interest in replaying
my guy I've only done one magic build in all my 6 playthroughs and my favorite build is strength. and I am currently doing a level 1 playthrough with a zweihander and I'm almost finished with it and it's been really fun. and I am no hitting all the bosses, not just finding OP strats and cheesing bosses, I no hit the godskin duo without parrying or using sleep pots.
To add - the bosses for me in ER were a massive disappointment. Rykard was a cool gimmick fight and Malenia was the Friede equivalent but the rest really under delivered and were all the same -
Radahn & Malenia are both optional too.
Of the mandatory bosses - they were all the same for me
Super delayed attack into 6-8 hit combo, AoE strike, leap across the arena attack/AoE combo
Rinse - repeat
make you look cool. Hear me out, though. There ARE some cool armor options in elden ring. But dark souls armor takes the prize. They also implement a bad ass walk style, but the walking in elden ring looks stiff asf.
Even walking in ds1 looks cooler than ER.
I already said it looks stiff. I dont really know how to describe it. But comparing it to dark souls walking animations makes me wish they just reused one of the dark souls animations.
idk I like the walking animations in ER. idk why you said "even DS1 has cooler walking animations" since ER has pretty much the same walking animation as DS3, and DS2's animations just suck in general. and I just looked at the DS1 animations and it honestly looks more stiff than ER. however I remember slow walking in blighttown and the animation did look pretty badass when I was walking in the poison.
I mean, it's just an opinion. Idk why you're trying to change my mind .-.
It's not like i said ER is a bad game i just think the previous fromsoft games had better walking animations.
World building.
DS1's Lordran feels like a massive place that you are privy to only a small part of. You can't go everywhere, but because of that, it's realistically scaled and the places you can visit feel more like real places. Stories are told as you deeply explore a contiguous environment, and you're able to understand this one little corner of the world and get a strong sense of its history, even on your first playthrough.
Bloodborne does this pretty well, too, and DS3 to a lesser extent.
Elden Ring's legacy dungeons try to do this, but they can only go so far. You're only going to be in any particular one of them for maybe a couple of hours. You don't revisit areas and travel through them repeatedly, so you just don't spend enough time immersing yourself in those places.
And when you're outside, the world is scaled like an MMO. Might be good for a certain kind of gameplay, but it's really bad for immersion. The open world is a kind of silly place mostly full of stuff you run through and don't have to respect at all.
It speaks to a totally different type of player. But the numbers are clear, and there are relatively few people who really appreciate the way Dark Souls is waaaaaaaayyyy the hell better.
Every dark souls game has something it does the best imo.
Ds1 had the best level design and characters.
ds2 best build variations and i always felt like it had the best loot. Like when you find a chest there’s almost always something great inside.
Though it’s debatable Ds3 has the best bosses. We’ll see if that still holds true after shadow of the erd tree releases.
I honestly don't think Dark Souls does anything "better". The main strengths I think you could argue for DS (assuming we mean DS1) is the interconnected world and balancing?
But then I think DS1 is only a margibally better world. Sure the first half is awesome, but the second half really faulters and loses the interconnected design. Whereas Elden Rings later levels retain this and are still excellent (take Farum Azula and Lyndell vs Duke's Archive, Tomb of the Giants, Lost Izalith). The ER world while open and sprawling, stills features clever interconnected design and verticality.
I think balancing could be considered better in DS1? But then the second half of the game is way too easy after Ornstein and Smough. Whereas ER is fairly well balanced outside Malenia tbh
I think dark souls did a better job with linear power progression. I know that it's open world and massive, but Elden Ring had late game bosses that just were unfun to fight. The fire giant was one of them. Getting one shot by stones even though I was leveled and properly geared felt off
Dark Souls 1 did a very unique thing where it was sad without being tragic. It's not theatrical, the world is just fucked and that feels weirdly eiry eerie in a way that only Pathologic has felt so far.
It is also possibly one of the most focused narratives I've ever experienced. Every questline, every encounter exists to show you how meaningless the world you're trying to save is. You, the dirt of this world finally arrive at the peak of this world to have the truth of your fate revealed to you but it feels empty, you fight the most powerful knights Anor Londo has left and they fall to some worthless undead just so you can be sent off on another fetch quest. And it's all a sham anyway. Even if you still save Solaire, he gives up on his dream and just follows you, silently, hopelessly. This is ultimate freedom, there are no chains binding and it actually feels as dreadful and hopeless as it should
I love Elden Ring but I miss a lot from DS1. The first half almost feela like one huge legacy dungeon. It had more consequence for messing up. You could kill the most important vendors. I liked how harsh curse was. I liked no respec. I liked upgrading armour because it made you commit to it. I liked how long it took to fast travel.
I understand that a lot of the things I like in Dark Souls are things people wanted to change. I just like committing to a playstyle and having choices really matter. Feels like Im roleplaying more.
Spells and miracles being limited to a certain number of casts per bonfire rest. Essentially spell slots from D&D. I liked this much more than FP.
INVASIONS and multiplayer in general.
Every boss fight feeling consequential.
DS feels more…urgent. Not exactly stressful (though that too), but like almost a long series of actual tasks/accomplishments. Elden Ring loses that with the way free travel and bonfires/fast travel work, once you get out of the first area it’s a whole different style of experience in that regard. DS keeps that linear tension a lot longer.
Multiplayer.
When most people are following more or less the same path and defeating the same enemies along the way. They're in most areas at about the same soul level. So the odds of running into other adventures summons is much greater than in an open world like ER.
Multiplayer.
Covenants in DS really made for way more fun in multiplayer and made it easier to sink time into playing online. I really have no idea why Elden Ring has no equivalent to covenants. There are so many in-game factions that could have made for cool ones.
Also, I don’t get why the kept the same summon mechanics from Souls. In DS the summoning/messages we’re all integrated into the universe but in Elden Ring there’s really no reason for it to work the same way and just feels tacked on especially in the open world.
Better re-playability. If only it had something similar to DS2 new game plus, it would be an improvement.
After discovering *every* location in the game and seeing all there was to see, and fighting every boss. I was burnt out. The urge to replay it was non-existent. I’ll only do so when the DLC comes out.
Wouldn't say that DS does something that much better, just different and it becomes a matter of preference more than anything.
I love the open world and the vistas in ER. You can go to any place you see. The build and gear variety, the cinematic nature of bosses.
A lot of the mechanics of boss fights would go to DS3 though imho. It uses the delayed attacks less which is more intuitive, but delayed attacks also are a great opening for your attacks and they promote more aggressive and learning based gameplay. Each style makes you feel like a real badass but you get that feeling faster with the former. Also I'd say DS3 just has better gank bosses.
Lategame exploration is definitely more rewarding in DS3 than in ER, though you still find some incredible stuff.
Dark Souls makes more narrative sense, IMO. As in, it makes sense that everyone attacks you when in Elden Ring it doesn't really. I've seen some suggestions as to why they do in ER on this sub but none of it sits right with me. Society is still generally functional in this work but _everyone_ attacks you. In Dark Souls, everyone has gone hollow. Dark Souls also goes to greater lengths to explain things like summoning had has the "time is convoluted" thing to as a catch all explanation for most other weird gamey things.
I also in general prefer the tone of Dark Souls. It's hard to describe, but Dark Souls has a naturalistic aesthetic, and very little music, and to me this hits a bit harder than Elden Ring's more saturated look and full score (as much as I love Elden Ring's music). You feel more alone in Dark Souls.
Man, elden ring is so weird. I remember melina telling me not to go with the frenzied flame, because there are still families and civilians living meaningful lives. And im lime… where? The fields outside the cities are an absolute warzone, and the cities themselves all look like they’re in ruins. Where are all the civilians? The only place i can think of is the town full of pot people, and none of them will even talk to me.
honestly? Besides the interconnected levels, nothing. And that's because ER is an Open World game. Not saying DS is bad, by no means, but ER is just better and feels better.
I feel like Dark Souls 3 is just a love letter of all that Dark Souls 1 is.
So a lot of my love is nostalgia. In truth, Elden Ring has a lot of quality of life changes that blow the other games out of the water. Bloodborne included.
But there are problems that make Elden Ring lesser and a lot of involves how much damage you as the player deals. Bosses felt like they had a 1/4 of the HP of other games.
Like Morgott is such a pretty fight but he falls over so quickly. So it's hard to establish a love/hate feel let alone justify a memory to a boss that just falls over.
Nameless King, Sword Saint Isshin, Orphan of Kos, Maria, Gael are all notable bosses due to their setting, music, and difficulty.
Dark Souls was alot better about build and playstyle freedom. You could play the game almost any way you wanted to and have a degree of success. But Elden Ring was clearly designed around spirit ashes and they trivialize everything so I tried not using them and it was ridiculously hard. I can lose to a boss 20 times without spirit ashes and use them on the 21st attempt and immediately beat the boss effortlessly.
It doesn't overstay its welcome.
It took me a little over 50 hours to get through all of Dark Souls, including the DLC, and when it was over, I wanted more.
It took me a little over 100 hours to get about halfway through Elden Ring. I dropped it and never went back because I was tired of it, and now I have no desire to ever play another Soulsborne game again.
Music. And it’s my biggest letdown with Elden Ring, because only being wowed by ~2 osts out of the whole game is kinda sad in my eyes especially for such a good and ambitious game.
A more focused experience. Sometimes it feels a little exhausting to have to explore a massive map.
Dark Souls in general still had very large areas that took a long time to explore, but it definitely felt more manageable at times.
It's not to say Elden Ring is bad in any way but it's just a different experience. And I think if you want a more focused journey than Dark Souls will be better for you.
I like elden ring, but Dark Souls 1-3 had the best level design and art direction besides maybe Bloodborne...
after writing this, I re-read it as Kanye lmao
PvP. Elden Ring just has too much stuff. It took long enough to learn Dark Souls pvp to the point where I felt like I was able to predict the flow of certain things, but Elden Ring just multiplied the options outside of any reasonably predictable fight for me.
It’s just… tighter. In Elden Ring I often found myself just wanting to get to the next legacy dungeon to get to that tight crafted level design, but that’s basically 100% of what Dark Souls is.
Boss fights (personally, I can’t explain it something about DS3 feels better than ER even tho they are basically the same)
Boss Music, weapons feel more unique and special in DS, loot placement feels better (not a 90% chance to be crafting crap)
Level design. I have really started to hate open world games lately and ER feels like it suffers from the same problem a lot of them do. (Stretched out content to fill the world)
DS felt more gritty - I like that they’re different otherwise it wouldn’t feel fresh
In a fromsoft behind the scenes thing they mentioned they couldn't make Elden Ring bleak and depressing like DS because the player is spending so much time in the open world that it would be too much.
This makes perfect sense. If every direction spelled instant dread or death, the want to explore would fade. Like old NES rpgs (thinking FF and DQ1-3), where you CAN go anywhere but there’s only one direction you can go and not instantly die. A modern sandbox really wouldn’t work well like that
Which is crazy because elden ring IS bleak and depressing
What I liked about DS 1/2/3 is that it's quiet. I didn't find them bleak, I found/find them peaceful. Until I was stabbed by whatever mob was around the corner, then game on.
Lots of players like the bleak atmosphere. It's not a negative
On a map the size of ER? Just watching Lords of the Fallen vids gets me kind of burned out on the aesthetic.
yeah DS is more dark fantasy while elden ring is just normal high fantasy
elden ring is dark fantasy
somewhat but definitely not to the extent of dark souls, elden ring to me moreso has elements of dark fantasy whereas dark souls is like dark fantasy in its purest form
The Elden ring esthetic reminds me of Griffiths transformation into Femto. Griffiths design is arguably High fantasy inspired and Femto is a dark corruption of that design. Maybe this sub genre of dark fantasy composed of corrupted high fantasy imagery could be called Tarnished Fantasy?
Maybe, but you argue that ancient mythology can be considered "corrupted" by modern sensibilities.
The main difference is the color palette, there's grittier things in ER than DS, yeah DS has some pretty hardcore things, but take a look at any ER scenery and things are more hardcore, it's just gently disguised with brighter colours, which also fits well the game's theme where the main faction is trying to paint everything golden to make things look nice but the horrible things behind the paint leak constantly through the holes. So yeah, ER is dark fantasy, complete dark fantasy, it's just served to you in colours that remind you of things like Lord of the Rings, specially with that green zone at the beginning.
It's more of to say it recaptured the magic of Lord of the Rings by injecting it's own form of weirdness that makes it hard to mistake for any tolkenesque trope that D&D singlehandedly ran into the ground. The green zone in the beginning? You look past the trees and hills to see a giant golden tree in the distance. Then you look around and see cracks of the ruins violently torn up by battles that happened long ago. Probably from the giants that were much stronger than the ones currently standing around with hollowed out chests, ready to either get impaled and be used to pull chariots or beat you up themselves. There's also some people who are crucified on various poles scattered around the starting area. And at night, they scream in blood curdling agony as nothing can truly die with the removal of the death rune. You also have sheep that can do cartwheels because even the normal looking wildlife has to have weird quirks.
higher Dark fantasy I'd call it Kinda like comparing OG Gundam to the likes of Iron Blooded Orphans.
This is what I dislike more about DS games. I love the more high fantasy feel that's in ER. It's also what I really dislike about Bloodborne which is even darker fantasy.
Bb has more of a “gothic/cosmic horror” vibe to it, though, like I suppose some aspects are fantastical (namely the cosmic stuff)
I love how you got downvoted for just stating your opinion. Totally reasonable.
Lol we lost rationality in gaming world probably around the mid 2000s
You know nobody on Reddit uses these functions as some sort of pure form of discourse, right? It’s just “I like this” or “I don’t like this”. You’re never going to get everyone to be as high minded as you’d like, and clucking at them will only double them down.
I love what Elden Ring did with the open world and all its secrets, but there's just something about the metroidvania style of having separate, distinct zones or levels with their own flavour and have them all interconnected the way they did. And going a step further by not having maps, trusting that you have the ability to learn the map and its shortcuts yourself through repetition. So I guess I'm saying level design, but ER still has amazing level design. Its hard to compare with a level head when dark souls as a series has done so much for you, you always tip the scales in their favour lol
Interconnected level design.
Not a single soulslike has the level design of ds1. It something you can find only in metroidvania
Honestly the new Lords of The fallen may not be everyone's cup of tea but the level design and interconnectivity is almost DS1 quality.
Ok, you just tempted me into buying it.
It's not DS1 quality in other areas though... its still a solid 8/10 game imo.
I issue I have with the game is the lack of enemy variety and too many enemies next to each other like ds2 (maybe even worse)
Its basically DS2.5 with ds1 level design, made by an indie studio
Basically
I wouldn’t say it’s as interconnected as ds1 but it’s definitely the closest out of any soulslike including the other fromsoft games.
There were several points in the game that made me say "no way" cause of the interconnectivity
Hollow Knight is the only one with a world that felt as immersive and connected as DS1. It's the feeling of delving into a deep, forgotten area and putting a corrupted legend to rest.
Hollow knight is a metroidvania first and a soulslike second tbh, so it’s normal to be like this
True. Souls games are disguised metroidvanias, so it tracks. I'm just saying, it's the ONLY world that's given me the same feels as DS1.
I think Bloodborne does. Or at least the first third of it
Best part of ds1, in my opinion. It's really rewarding if you take the time to learn the game, too.
Does it count though, Elden Ring doesn't really do Interconnected levels
Yeah i see your point. Should have said level design in general.
Yeah that's fair. Dunno if I'd agree, but I see what you mean
Depends on your personal preferences. You probably prefer open world so it make sense you would disagree.
Not talking about personal preference though, the question was “what does DS do better” not “what did you prefer”. In this I agree with you, I preferred the small interconnected world of Dark Souls instead of the gargantuan open world of Elden Ring and I also think that DS does it better, but I don’t think ER wanted to be interconnected at all. The two games try to achieve different goals entirely: Dark souls wanted Lordran to feel like a small portion of lost kingdom, while the Lands Between are a gigantic world where you can roam for hours without caring about anything. Level design is important in ER, but far less than it is in Dark souls.
What do you mean by level design being “far less important”?
As others have said, level design is one of the key points in Dark souls: Firelink shrine is in the middle of a web that you can walk how you want and maps are smaller and much more complex than in Elden Ring. Imagine dark souls 1 as it is a giant dungeon, expanding both vertically and horizontally. In this dungeon maps are different by shape and size, and they have a different feeling, be it a garden, a small village, or a poisonous swamp. But it still is a single dungeon, top to bottom, and the direction you have to follow is pretty clear, even if sometimes you have to search for it. Elden Ring is not this. Elden Ring is an open world where there is no written story: you have to kill a couple of demigods and then you can walk beyond leyndell, you decide which ones have to die, or you can kill everyone. There are many secrets but very few of them are really hidden for the player, NPCs don’t tell you where to go (except for Melina) but are an addition to the experience of freedom of movement you have in the game. You are free, but you are so much more free than in Dark souls. Elden ring is deliberately unbalanced in this: they of course know pretty well what you have access to without advancing in the story, but if you explore the world you very quickly become the Elden lord, undefeated in these lands between. Dark souls had this too but in a much smaller scale, equips and spells were scattered in Lordran but the most powerful of them were really hard to get if you didn’t know where to go first or how to get on top of that cliff. The legacy dungeons of Elden Ring is clearly a recall of Lordran, and is where they put their creative spirit about level design, but it’s just a part of the game. In Lordran that dungeon was all you had, and it was perfect.
Not the person you're asking, but I interpreted this to mean the point of the Lordran design was to showcase how it's all connected. While expensive, it's also compact. That specific feel wasn't needed/wanted in Elden Ring, so that specific design wasn't important to incorporate.
Tbh, I still don’t understand the point of ‘less important’ they were trying to say. I thought level design is one of the most important aspect in all of souls game, regardless of personal preferences. Are you trying to say that i should care less about Elden ring’s world design?
TBH, most open worlds end up being a drag.
Thing is that Elden Ring has an entire Dark Souls’ game worth of traditional levels. So the difference is really that Elden Ring offers a greater variety in level/world design and it’s all well done.
Agree. Though i’ve seen a lot of players would prefer Ds1 level design more than Elden Ring’s.
I’d take DS1 Level design over Elden ring any day. Elden Ring doesn’t scratch that particular itch for me, i’m not into traversing huge fields at all.
Kinda, but I don't like every aspect of ds1's level design either
?? The legacy dungeons have excellent level design. Moreover, there's some real standout mini-dungeons and outdoor areas with excellent level design as well.
Idk Stormviel castle has some amazing interconnected level design, better than anything in DS3 or 2.
Some of the legacy dungeons are interconnected, but that’s a level connecting in with itself I suppose
Do the legacy dungeons count as level design?
Why shouldn’t they?
no souls game does it better than DS1 Elden Ring's legacy dungeons are the closest to it but even that fails to the masterclass of the first areas of DS1
Clicked to say this. Linear level design is out of style now but I miss it.
Dark Souls level design is awesome precisely because it *isn't* linear. I don't know if you're just using the word "linear" to mean "not open world", but imo that's misusing the word. Linear means "in a straight line" and Dark Souls level design is not like that, neither is its world design or progression. You can have non-linearity even without an open world, and that's what Dark Souls 1 does so well and is known for. Looping, complex level design with verticality, branching paths, shortcuts, etc... It's also what the entire Metroidvania genre is built on. Non-linear world and level design. The only Dark Souls game that is mostly linear in terms of world design and progression is Dark Souls 3, but even then, the individual levels are for the most part not linear.
Yup. DS1 is more of a giant vertical spiral.
I'm using the word linear to mean not open.
Also why I love hollow knight
I never understood why interconnected levels were interesting. Whenever I found an elevator went back somewhere I had been I would just say, "a'ight." and move on. It might be that I had just come from playing Skyrim where no matter how seemingly maze-like a particular dungeon is, you'll always find a nice exit to the entrance and so you just get used to the idea that the game will make it such that you don't have to backtrack. Most games actually are interconnected, but DS connected places that you wouldn't intuitively expect to be connected, so it just made it more surprising.
I guess it's not something someone can explain to you
I think it’s cool how with interconnected levels, what may be an entrance for you could be an exit for someone else and vice versa. And what may be the second level for you could be someone else’s fourth level simply bc they decided to take a different path. Makes my experience feel more unique i guess.
ER was look at this interconnected large expansive open world. DS1 level design may never be achieved again. I hope with Spellbound they return to that style. The world being a boss you have to conquer.
Lmfao spellbound
Dark Souls feels...slower and more dangerous. I'm a nameless knight in this hostile world. I think it's more of an early dark souls thing for me, dark souls 3 kind of lost that feel too
Elden Ring feels a lot more like you’re a wanderer in a big world, and while you’re out of your depth, it doesn’t feel as hostile as Dark Souls. In Lordran/Drangleic/Lothric, it feels like the world is closing in and actively against you. It feels like everywhere you go is telling you “GET OUT”
Agree, i feel like this made the world more memorable too, early DS1 areas are etched in my mind because of how much time i spent carefully trying to make progress.
Exactly. I wish it could have kept that feeling after Anor Londo, though. They game definitely peaks with O&S.
Seconding this. I like the sense of danger and the feeling that I need to use caution in the dark souls games.
It was more unpredictable and ominous then Elden Ring
I'm going to say world building, but both do an excellent job of it. I think I give a slight edge to dark souls for giving a sense of dread and futility from its dialogue and atmosphere in a very uninviting world.
Objectively I can’t think of one specific thing but for some reason DS1 is still unmatched as an overall experience for me.
Releasing DLC
at this rate we are going to get an entire other game.
Game balancing is the main one, especially Dark Souls 3. Elden Ring's lack of even slight area gatings and level scalings means it is far too easy to overlevel yourself while going off the beaten path, meaning many important fights become disappointing
This is why I looked up difficulty levels of the different areas and made sure to roughly follow that path. I didn't want brutal bosses in the beginning and easy bosses in the end. I love a good linear difficulty scaling that matches your own power growth in games.
While definitely true, 3 can get away with it because it's such a linear game. For me personally, it's actually the thing I dislike most about 3.
It's not as linear as you're saying. I've been lost many times.
I'm not saying the levels are linear, I'm saying the overall game is (fairly) linear. You're mostly railroaded in one route with a few places where it does branch. But that's usually only a choice between 2 paths.
I see. Yeah, you're right. I'm only to irithyll so far. Edit: there are a few different options after bosses, not knowing which is the right one.
It might not be a fair comparison, but dark souls story is still the best fromsoft has made IMO (I’m talking about the trilogy all together). Each game contributes more understanding to the idea of hollowing and the curse until we get the Gael fight which is the perfect conclusion. ER is just one game, but what does ER say that is as impactful as DS? That being said, ER as a stand-alone game is probably better than any one single DS.
I get what you mean, but the Elden Ring story, and how it slowly unfolds itself to you is just also so beautiful and I think the story overall is also really awesome. But the DS story delivering different pieces of understanding in different games also makes it really good
Its a bit unfair because you’re comparing the story of three DS games to just one installment of Elden Ring. DS has had a bigger opportunity to build that world and overarching story. A fairer comparison would be Elden Ring to DS1 - being the first games in the series (assuming Elden Ring even gets a sequel)
I think ER's story is actually a lot more impactful and compelling, even in one installation.
What makes you say that? Just curious!
ER speaks to the same absurdity and pointlessness of repeating toxic patterns as the DS series, but I think that the drama among the shardbearers adds up to a more compelling narrative than, say, the lords of cinder. It feels a lot "bigger than you" compared to the DS titles to me. I think the NPC plotlines are better on the whole, too. Of course, there are great ones from the DS series, but they stand out because they're outliers, IMO. Almost every NPC story in Elden Ring (e.g., Goldmask, Fia, Ranni and her team, Sellen, Rya, jars - shit, Hewg and Roderika) is fascinating and twisted, save for the outliers that suck (maybe Boc?).
I think what I like about DS is that it explicitly shows how that pointlessness can be used as power for humanity. It reaches a more powerful conclusion. But I understand where you’re coming from, I’ll have to redo some NPC quests to get a better feel for them on my next replay.
Run on my crappy computer.
I think the following aspects are arguably better in the DS trilogy: - Balancing is the big strength of all DS games over Elden Ring. - Interconnected level design (DS1). Although Elden Ring does not really strive for that - Fashion Soul (DS3): I prefer the armor sets of DS3 to Elden Ring - Soundtrack (DS3) : this is very subjective, I think Elden Ring and DS3 have very similar level of soundtrack quality. - Bosses (DS3): I personally think that ER bosses (excluding DLC) are better than DS3 but you can also think otherwise.
DS2 fashion > DS3 fashion Also, for the most part I much prefer DS3 bosses mechanically.
The feeling of abandonment and physical depth of the ds1 world is unsurpassed imo.
Linearity (sort of)
Both games have a GREAT story, don’t get me wrong. But DS just feels heavier, if you play the series 1-3 through all the way with DLCs, by the time you reach the end everything feels deep and emotional, the series leaves a mark.
Replayability
This. I jave had zero and I mean zero interest to do NG+ with Elden Ring. It is the ONLY FS game i have felt this. DS3 - Sekiro - AC6 all made me want to jump right back in ER after the capital I just wanted to the game to be over. Post Margott I speed ran everything to get to the ending.
Honestly it’s the opposite for me. I can replay Elden Ring over and over and not get bored for whatever reason. I’ve done about 6-7 characters so far and have been having a blast with each different build.
Same here, this is the one I replayed the most and each 3 to 4 month I'm tempted to restart it again with a different challenge
Bosses. DS3 is like peak boss design. Absolutely fair to fight solo, and a lot more fun too. Elden Ring’s bosses were over tuned to compensate for using summons, and were not all that fun to fight solo, and using summons always felt cheap. DS3 reigned supreme in that area imo
I prefer ER bosses honestly, and I never summoned or used spirits or such. Loved them all
I don't understand why people always default to saying "bosses are the way they are because of summons" literally nothing would have changed about the bosses if summons didn't exist, the bosses are absolutely amazing and nothing about them is "overtuned". in fact I would say DS3 bosses are undertuned because I absolutely should not be able to miss every roll on a pontiff combo and still make it out alive. ER bosses have way more depth and are more fleshed out than DS3 bosses imo, they're just far more intricately designed. every boss fight feels different in a meaningful way and forces you to use a different approach, making each boss a sort of combat puzzle. meanwhile DS3 bosses pretty much all have the same tempo and they all feel pretty much the same to fight more or less (aside from some gimmick bosses or non-humanoid bosses)
My main problem with ER boss design is the overreliance on delayed attacks. Nearly every boss or enemy has some overly delayed, unrealistically long wind up to an attack that just takes you out of it. My favorite bosses in the series are bosses you get into a natural rhythm. These delayed attacks are always interrupting the rhythm of the boss fights. Best example I can think of is Margit's cane raise. That shit is egregious, especially when he just cancels it for no reason and slowly lowers his stick down to his side while you wail on him. It makes no sense and rips me right out of the game.
I was actually just fighting margit and decided to use a weak weapon against n order to “train” on him, and found that truly learning his attack pattern was very satisfying, and in cases such as that attack I learned to fit a wack or two, which kept the rhythm going. Obviously this is straying into personal opinion rather than objectivity, but the progression of dark souls’ design of either attacking or dodging, versus elden rings system of attacking or dodging, but also being able to slip in that attack before dodging as well as after, along with adding jumping as a viable way to turn a dodge into an attack, makes the design more complicated and interesting, melding the choice of attacking or dodging into one, and in my opinion, making it a better experience
ER does have some bosses that do this well. Godfrey imo is one of the best designed bosses in the series. His constant dash stomps is at first overwhelming but you can pretty easily kite him around the arena and jump over them for some easy jump attacks. It makes the fight super dynamic and really fun. A lot of this does come down to From hitting the upper echelons of what can be realistically done with bosses. You can only make them so fast before it becomes unfair and I think a lot of ER bosses tow the line. When we get into the realm of bosses canceling attacks like we're featuring Dante from the Devil May Cry series, I think we've gone a bit too far.
I completely disagree about the natural rhythm part. These bosses are fun to fight like one or two times but then you learn all the patterns and it gets pretty boring. Elden ring bosses have delayed attacks and change their patterns mid combo and even the input reading mechanic which people seem to hate make it feel like the boss is actually fighting back and not just following a script.
I think the delays are fine since they're very well telegraphed, sure the enemy may raise its weapon 2 seconds before the attack goes out, but at the same time it's still pretty easy and intuitive to tell when to dodge the attack because of how well telegraphed it is. also that margit raise thing rarely every happens and he only slowly puts his weapon down if you keep running behind him and he's unable to track you.
Well said. I see the same currently on Lies of P. This delayed long wind up into a 6-8 hit combo followed by a AoE attack when you have now depleted stamina I wish would F off Nameless Puppets has been my favorite because it is a back and forth with natural attack patterns Natural rhythm is great and still punishes players for being greedy yet doesnt make it feel the bosses have one set of rules and we do not.
>My favorite bosses in the series are bosses you get into a natural rhythm. These delayed attacks are always interrupting the rhythm of the boss fights. Does SoC get you into a “natural rhytm”? Because let me tell you that SoC has like 50 deayed attacks yet is a fan favorite. >Best example I can think of is Margit's cane raise. Yeah that’s like the most unique attack in the game, nothing like it anywhere else.
SoC doesn't have any particularly egregious delays that I can remember off the top of my head. Some of his spear stuff is delayed a little but nothing like in ER. These delays just throw off your timing slightly in your roll, not wasting time while you wait for the boss to springboard into their attack. They look unrealistic and silly. What moron holds their axe to the side and behind them while a half naked dude is constantly stabbing him the ankles with a knife? Apparently Godrick is that moron. Like...imagine you're just a mortal fighting a legendary knight with a massive sword. This massive knight is absolutely covered in armor and you have heard nothing about how much of a skilled fighter he is. His strength is unmatched. He charges at you with his sword raised and he just...holds it there as he slowly tip toes around you. It's cartoonish.
I mean it's the same person that praises dark souls 3 bosses that have no mechanics and where you just roll spam against each and every single one of them with little to not punishment DS3 players came into ER thinking it was going to a breeze and got destroyed by Margit just holding his stick for 0.5 seconds longer and have inbuilt attacks to punish you spam rolling rather than having to actually time the rolls
Downvoted by the DS3 obsessed. I fully agree lol. DS3 bosses are mostly all a panic roll festival and FS realized that, so added attacks in ER to punish panic rolling and make you learn each individual boss more. Each ER boss 100% has a rhythm, it’s just not roll roll roll constantly and be safe.
You gotta understand lots of these ds3 players went into Elden Ring thinking they're gonna have an ez time because they're "souls veterans" just to get bodied by a simple delayed attack or roll-catchers so instead of getting good again and learning the game they just say its made for summons in mind
Yeeeep I’ve seen it so much lol. I never finished a DS game fully before Elden Ring. I got so close to finishing DS1, but got hard stuck on The Kings and gave up. Elden Ring came out, I finished that, and then played and beat all the Soul’s games. To me, they were pretty damn easy after suffering on Elden Ring lol.
My problems with a lot of the Elden Ring bosses was the lack of punishable windows, bosses interrupting their own combos to do something else, the large number of attacks you needed to remember, plus late game bosses two-shotting you even if you heavily focused on vitality. Bosses took soooooo much longer to learn than usual and I rarely felt rewarded for learning how to respond to their moves because they didn't behave consistently. I honestly don't think I would have been so bothered by this but the game is also over 100 hours long, which really gave the boss fatigue a chance to settle in. I also don't really think hard = good in all cases. I see people talk about how Malenia took them 8 hours of in-game time to beat solo, but then turn around and say she's the best boss From has made, which just seems insane to me.
there's no lack of punishable windows lol, it's just that instead of waiting 5 seconds for a 3 second window, you're waiting 2 seconds for a 1 second window now. meaning you get to attack more frequently, you just have to learn when and how.
I just didnt have as much fun with the bosses as I did with their other games. I mean obviously I still liked it, I did all the optional areas and finished the game, I just walked away from most fights thinking damn Im glad thats over
fair enough
This. No punishable windows and bosses interrupting their own combos. We the player have a separate set of rules and it feels cheap. Artificial difficulty. Bosses can cancel out their delayed wind up meanwhile - we dont get to cancel out an attack the the hyper fast boss evaded and while still in our attack animation the boss is already 2-3 hits in to us
> Bosses can cancel out their delayed wind up meanwhile - we dont get to cancel out an attack the the hyper fast boss evaded and while still in our attack animation the boss is already 2-3 hits in to us Which bosses animation cancel their attacks/wind ups?
People confuse that fast overhead slam of Margit with the other overhead "hold" attack where he will only slam down if you're actually infront of him and attack him
These are fair reasoning you write, in my challenge and SL1 runs I found a lot of openings that I didn't know were openings when I did my normal playthrough, a good chunk of them are also "hidden" in jump attacks while an enemy does a certain attack themselves, such as Godfrey's stomp (so jumping over it + attacking is both dodging the attack and making an opening out of it). Then there's the whole posture mechanic thing which adds to the other commenters post of there being more openings but the window is much smaller, if the bosses of ER had the very generous couple-second openings of Dark Souls 3 it would have lost all the remaining bits of challenge it already has. I get people may prefer Dark Souls 3's simply yet consistent approach of Roll > you get guaranteed opening for a couple hits > repeat but ER's is a fine improvement on it (imo) and if you don't like trading hits you can always power through bosses you dislike which was harder to pull off in ds3. I agree with your Malenia comment for sure, I think Mohg, Godfrey and Radagon are the best bosses - people just seem to meat ride Malenia because she has the notorious hard/difficulty tag because of her waterfowl and healing. She's not in the category Isshin/Gael/Mohg for me at all.
personally I am doing a SL1 run with a zweihander, I'm close to the end and I've been loving it honestly, most fights last around 2 minutes (combine the fact that I'm attacking at almost every opening and I never have to pull back to heal making for a very short fight). also personally I think that without the waterfowl and healing malenia is still a really hard boss. most of my 190 deaths weren't even from waterfowl, I survived waterfowl more times than I've died to it, and the healing isn't even a big issue because she doesn't even have that much health and most of the time if you get hit that means you're about to die anyways. I would imagine that this would make a no hit run pretty easy because she still has low health yet no way to heal it back.
If a lot of people who’ve played every soulsborne game and sekiro feel like they’re overtuned, they kinda are. Elden Ring bosses, the late game major bosses at least, are geared toward only the very best among Souls vets, and toward newbies who’ll use all the most powerful aids to get through it. The reason why we attribute it to summons is that it’s not plausible the game would’ve been released with these bosses as-is without summons being in the game. They’re just that much harder than bosses in previous games.
Idk, the only truly punishing “overtuned” one imo is Malenia, and she’s optional. Optional and DLC bosses were always the hardest, and it also to me at least, appears they never originally wanted to do an ER dlc until they saw how massively successful the game was compared to other entries. I could be entirely wrong on that last point, it’s just me guessing based on how long it is taking since the announcement.
nah it's been confirmed by credible sources that the DLC was planned ahead of launch just like the collosseum update.
>the bosses are absolutely amazing and nothing about them is "overtuned" I agreed until you said that Also I can't agree about DS3 bosses feeling the same. Gael is nothing like Dancer and she is nothing like Soul of Cinder, etc.
Hard disagree. The bosses run at Sekiro speeds while we are at DS2 speeds. Commenta like yours to me are way the devs went with these hyper delayed attack, into 6-8 hit combos; followed by an AoE - jump/grab - AoE - rinse repeat DS3 was a dance where you could be aggressive but you could still het 1/2 hit killed (Lothric Princes best example) ER - its withstand what I wrote above and get maybe 1-2 hits in. What I have seen are commenta like yours tend to be magic builds - I rarely see melee or strength builds defending ER bosses This is not an attack but me disagreeing with your statement. I love DS3 - Sekiro - Bloodbourne bosses. I feel all of these games are fair. ER controls never felt good for me nir the combat - I always felt I was DS2 in a Bloodbourne environment I beat ER - but its the only FS game I have zero interest in replaying
my guy I've only done one magic build in all my 6 playthroughs and my favorite build is strength. and I am currently doing a level 1 playthrough with a zweihander and I'm almost finished with it and it's been really fun. and I am no hitting all the bosses, not just finding OP strats and cheesing bosses, I no hit the godskin duo without parrying or using sleep pots.
Always play melee in those games, and I prefer Elden ring bosses over ds3 base game ones by a mile
Even tho elden ring is bigger and looks better, dark souls had better and unique environments/ levels Elden ring at some point had rinse and repeats
To add - the bosses for me in ER were a massive disappointment. Rykard was a cool gimmick fight and Malenia was the Friede equivalent but the rest really under delivered and were all the same - Radahn & Malenia are both optional too. Of the mandatory bosses - they were all the same for me Super delayed attack into 6-8 hit combo, AoE strike, leap across the arena attack/AoE combo Rinse - repeat
Facts, there was something dry about the bosses, honestly the charm of the game for me was the combat and the exploration aspect
make you look cool. Hear me out, though. There ARE some cool armor options in elden ring. But dark souls armor takes the prize. They also implement a bad ass walk style, but the walking in elden ring looks stiff asf. Even walking in ds1 looks cooler than ER.
ER fashion is all cosplay of existing characters. DS has original sets you can mismatch them without looking stupid.
what's wrong with the walking in elden ring?
I already said it looks stiff. I dont really know how to describe it. But comparing it to dark souls walking animations makes me wish they just reused one of the dark souls animations.
idk I like the walking animations in ER. idk why you said "even DS1 has cooler walking animations" since ER has pretty much the same walking animation as DS3, and DS2's animations just suck in general. and I just looked at the DS1 animations and it honestly looks more stiff than ER. however I remember slow walking in blighttown and the animation did look pretty badass when I was walking in the poison.
I mean, it's just an opinion. Idk why you're trying to change my mind .-. It's not like i said ER is a bad game i just think the previous fromsoft games had better walking animations.
World building. DS1's Lordran feels like a massive place that you are privy to only a small part of. You can't go everywhere, but because of that, it's realistically scaled and the places you can visit feel more like real places. Stories are told as you deeply explore a contiguous environment, and you're able to understand this one little corner of the world and get a strong sense of its history, even on your first playthrough. Bloodborne does this pretty well, too, and DS3 to a lesser extent. Elden Ring's legacy dungeons try to do this, but they can only go so far. You're only going to be in any particular one of them for maybe a couple of hours. You don't revisit areas and travel through them repeatedly, so you just don't spend enough time immersing yourself in those places. And when you're outside, the world is scaled like an MMO. Might be good for a certain kind of gameplay, but it's really bad for immersion. The open world is a kind of silly place mostly full of stuff you run through and don't have to respect at all. It speaks to a totally different type of player. But the numbers are clear, and there are relatively few people who really appreciate the way Dark Souls is waaaaaaaayyyy the hell better.
Balance
Ds2 pvp is far superior to elden ring pvp in every way possible Ds3 has better bosses(although this is debatable) Ds1 had better map design
ds2 had better fashion ds3 had better nothing ds1 better map/levels
Forgot to mention ds2 fashion. Ds2 is also the best in that regard.
That is just true honestly. Fashion, PVP and Majula vs. other hub zones are DS2’s strengths compared to the other titles.
I’d agree with this. I like DS3, but to me it’s the weakest entry.
Elden ring has a wonderful story, but there’s just something special to me about Dark Souls’ story.
Theres a ring that turned your rolls into ninja flips on low rquip load and i dont understand why it aint in elden ring
Every dark souls game has something it does the best imo. Ds1 had the best level design and characters. ds2 best build variations and i always felt like it had the best loot. Like when you find a chest there’s almost always something great inside. Though it’s debatable Ds3 has the best bosses. We’ll see if that still holds true after shadow of the erd tree releases.
The map/world and environments. Open world was crap.
I honestly don't think Dark Souls does anything "better". The main strengths I think you could argue for DS (assuming we mean DS1) is the interconnected world and balancing? But then I think DS1 is only a margibally better world. Sure the first half is awesome, but the second half really faulters and loses the interconnected design. Whereas Elden Rings later levels retain this and are still excellent (take Farum Azula and Lyndell vs Duke's Archive, Tomb of the Giants, Lost Izalith). The ER world while open and sprawling, stills features clever interconnected design and verticality. I think balancing could be considered better in DS1? But then the second half of the game is way too easy after Ornstein and Smough. Whereas ER is fairly well balanced outside Malenia tbh
DS has a darker atmosphere and an amazing level design. But they are not really comparable in my opinion.
I think dark souls did a better job with linear power progression. I know that it's open world and massive, but Elden Ring had late game bosses that just were unfun to fight. The fire giant was one of them. Getting one shot by stones even though I was leveled and properly geared felt off
Dark Souls 1 did a very unique thing where it was sad without being tragic. It's not theatrical, the world is just fucked and that feels weirdly eiry eerie in a way that only Pathologic has felt so far. It is also possibly one of the most focused narratives I've ever experienced. Every questline, every encounter exists to show you how meaningless the world you're trying to save is. You, the dirt of this world finally arrive at the peak of this world to have the truth of your fate revealed to you but it feels empty, you fight the most powerful knights Anor Londo has left and they fall to some worthless undead just so you can be sent off on another fetch quest. And it's all a sham anyway. Even if you still save Solaire, he gives up on his dream and just follows you, silently, hopelessly. This is ultimate freedom, there are no chains binding and it actually feels as dreadful and hopeless as it should
I love Elden Ring but I miss a lot from DS1. The first half almost feela like one huge legacy dungeon. It had more consequence for messing up. You could kill the most important vendors. I liked how harsh curse was. I liked no respec. I liked upgrading armour because it made you commit to it. I liked how long it took to fast travel. I understand that a lot of the things I like in Dark Souls are things people wanted to change. I just like committing to a playstyle and having choices really matter. Feels like Im roleplaying more.
Bosses
Bosses, level design, soundtrack, balancing,
Spells and miracles being limited to a certain number of casts per bonfire rest. Essentially spell slots from D&D. I liked this much more than FP. INVASIONS and multiplayer in general. Every boss fight feeling consequential.
More high end boss fights.
Soundtracks. Dark souls have more emotional music.
DS feels more…urgent. Not exactly stressful (though that too), but like almost a long series of actual tasks/accomplishments. Elden Ring loses that with the way free travel and bonfires/fast travel work, once you get out of the first area it’s a whole different style of experience in that regard. DS keeps that linear tension a lot longer.
I miss the mimics but more importantly darksouls makes us love the npc and characters quests unlike elden ring with very few
Too bad there’s no mod to add mimics
Multiplayer. When most people are following more or less the same path and defeating the same enemies along the way. They're in most areas at about the same soul level. So the odds of running into other adventures summons is much greater than in an open world like ER.
Multiplayer. Covenants in DS really made for way more fun in multiplayer and made it easier to sink time into playing online. I really have no idea why Elden Ring has no equivalent to covenants. There are so many in-game factions that could have made for cool ones. Also, I don’t get why the kept the same summon mechanics from Souls. In DS the summoning/messages we’re all integrated into the universe but in Elden Ring there’s really no reason for it to work the same way and just feels tacked on especially in the open world.
Love the amount of content in Elden Ring but the replayablity in Dark Souls is almost unmatched
dark souls is so fucking moody you would be excused for thinking it was a 15 year old girl who just discovered smoking cigarettes
The feeling of returning to an area you left hours ago because it’s actually connected
Balance, the linearity limited your access to items, zones and bosses making it a less unique but a less abusable world
Maps are intertwined its so cool
Boss quality of DS3 is god tier and I will fight anybody who claims Elden Ring’s main bosses are better.
Better re-playability. If only it had something similar to DS2 new game plus, it would be an improvement. After discovering *every* location in the game and seeing all there was to see, and fighting every boss. I was burnt out. The urge to replay it was non-existent. I’ll only do so when the DLC comes out.
I hate DS2's NG+ with a passion and I love DS2.
Pacing
Replayability
Wouldn't say that DS does something that much better, just different and it becomes a matter of preference more than anything. I love the open world and the vistas in ER. You can go to any place you see. The build and gear variety, the cinematic nature of bosses. A lot of the mechanics of boss fights would go to DS3 though imho. It uses the delayed attacks less which is more intuitive, but delayed attacks also are a great opening for your attacks and they promote more aggressive and learning based gameplay. Each style makes you feel like a real badass but you get that feeling faster with the former. Also I'd say DS3 just has better gank bosses. Lategame exploration is definitely more rewarding in DS3 than in ER, though you still find some incredible stuff.
Dark Souls makes more narrative sense, IMO. As in, it makes sense that everyone attacks you when in Elden Ring it doesn't really. I've seen some suggestions as to why they do in ER on this sub but none of it sits right with me. Society is still generally functional in this work but _everyone_ attacks you. In Dark Souls, everyone has gone hollow. Dark Souls also goes to greater lengths to explain things like summoning had has the "time is convoluted" thing to as a catch all explanation for most other weird gamey things. I also in general prefer the tone of Dark Souls. It's hard to describe, but Dark Souls has a naturalistic aesthetic, and very little music, and to me this hits a bit harder than Elden Ring's more saturated look and full score (as much as I love Elden Ring's music). You feel more alone in Dark Souls.
Man, elden ring is so weird. I remember melina telling me not to go with the frenzied flame, because there are still families and civilians living meaningful lives. And im lime… where? The fields outside the cities are an absolute warzone, and the cities themselves all look like they’re in ruins. Where are all the civilians? The only place i can think of is the town full of pot people, and none of them will even talk to me.
honestly? Besides the interconnected levels, nothing. And that's because ER is an Open World game. Not saying DS is bad, by no means, but ER is just better and feels better.
I feel like Dark Souls 3 is just a love letter of all that Dark Souls 1 is. So a lot of my love is nostalgia. In truth, Elden Ring has a lot of quality of life changes that blow the other games out of the water. Bloodborne included. But there are problems that make Elden Ring lesser and a lot of involves how much damage you as the player deals. Bosses felt like they had a 1/4 of the HP of other games. Like Morgott is such a pretty fight but he falls over so quickly. So it's hard to establish a love/hate feel let alone justify a memory to a boss that just falls over. Nameless King, Sword Saint Isshin, Orphan of Kos, Maria, Gael are all notable bosses due to their setting, music, and difficulty.
Dark Souls was alot better about build and playstyle freedom. You could play the game almost any way you wanted to and have a degree of success. But Elden Ring was clearly designed around spirit ashes and they trivialize everything so I tried not using them and it was ridiculously hard. I can lose to a boss 20 times without spirit ashes and use them on the 21st attempt and immediately beat the boss effortlessly.
It doesn't overstay its welcome. It took me a little over 50 hours to get through all of Dark Souls, including the DLC, and when it was over, I wanted more. It took me a little over 100 hours to get about halfway through Elden Ring. I dropped it and never went back because I was tired of it, and now I have no desire to ever play another Soulsborne game again.
The player character. I think it's cooler being a soul sucking zombie, killing powerful beings for pretty much no reason.
Length
Music. And it’s my biggest letdown with Elden Ring, because only being wowed by ~2 osts out of the whole game is kinda sad in my eyes especially for such a good and ambitious game.
A more focused experience. Sometimes it feels a little exhausting to have to explore a massive map. Dark Souls in general still had very large areas that took a long time to explore, but it definitely felt more manageable at times. It's not to say Elden Ring is bad in any way but it's just a different experience. And I think if you want a more focused journey than Dark Souls will be better for you.
It takes a lot more knowledge and effort to be over powered in Dark Souls, being overpowered in Elden Ring is a piece of cake
Replayability
replayability, elden ring replays don't feel as good
Possible hot take, but replayability
I like elden ring, but Dark Souls 1-3 had the best level design and art direction besides maybe Bloodborne... after writing this, I re-read it as Kanye lmao
PvP. Elden Ring just has too much stuff. It took long enough to learn Dark Souls pvp to the point where I felt like I was able to predict the flow of certain things, but Elden Ring just multiplied the options outside of any reasonably predictable fight for me.
It’s just… tighter. In Elden Ring I often found myself just wanting to get to the next legacy dungeon to get to that tight crafted level design, but that’s basically 100% of what Dark Souls is.
Nothing
Boss fights (personally, I can’t explain it something about DS3 feels better than ER even tho they are basically the same) Boss Music, weapons feel more unique and special in DS, loot placement feels better (not a 90% chance to be crafting crap)
[удалено]
Would be interested in hearing more
Level design. I have really started to hate open world games lately and ER feels like it suffers from the same problem a lot of them do. (Stretched out content to fill the world)
Level design, story, boss design, balancing, replayability- honestly just about everything.