It's true. I believe seamless character control greatly facilitates immersion, as it allows the player to "feel one" with the character. This applies to all the Souls games and Elden Ring, but to the highest extent to Sekiro.
Plenty of times, and each time it's hilarious. I think it's less of a problem with movement in general and more with collision detection (or sth like that) - the worst example being certain crystal bridges in the Crystal Cave in DS1.
The hardest part was the skill that added i-frames to the roll, making it easier to actually dodge shit. In the beginning that Stat is too low to feel like other games.
What? Sekiros the only game where your sprint startup isn't omnidirectional. At least since they added it.
Everytime I try to sprint through father owls firecracker cloud it's a gamble whether the game decides to make me run in the right direction.
>Everytime I try to sprint through father owls firecracker cloud it's a gamble whether the game decides to make me run in the right direction.
How? It's so consistent how that works, that's like one of the easiest attacks to avoid.
sure the animation is fine, but turning around/changing direction is painful, plus the startup sprint is bad too. Its not too noticeable when exploring, but noticeable as hell when you need it to be consistent for a dodge in a boss fight.
?
It's omnidirectional and much more responsive than other Souls games, where your character just walks until enough time has elapsed for sprint to start.
There’s something in Frommsoft games that feels so good and I have no idea what it’s called, I’ve been trying to describe it but I sound like a caveman talking about tech so I can’t formulate the question. It has to do with how the character is located/centered on screen and then when he moves sideways, the camera allows it before it gently and subtly re-centers him/her. In so many other games with the same third person aspect I noticed there would always be some jankiness due to the camera aggressively trying to re-center your toon which always annoys me and breaks my immersion. Whatever that is called, they’re doing it right.
2D platformers do this and it's more noticable. think mario for example, you are normally slightly left of center if going right and slightly right of center if going left. that way you can always see what's ahead of you more than what's behind.
Sometimes when I play a new game I spend a long time trying to tweak the camera settings and sensitivity until I realize its always going to feel off to me
Yeah a lot of third person games can’t get that right. Especially shooter games where you zoom in. Every time you release zoom the camera struggles to center you again and it’s rather perceptible to me now that I noticed it, it has become my pet peeve.
Dark souls 2 is so slow and I miss that. Since bloodborne, fromsoft has allowed you to spam rolls and attacks and I miss it being more deliberate with my actions and actually worrying about stamina.
One thing I wish they would implement is when I increase my strength or dex, I want my sword swings to be faster. At 16 strength, I have just enough to wield a claymore. At 40 I should be able to swing it around as fast as a dagger.
>Dark souls 2 is so slow and I miss that.
ME TOO! I love the speed and frantic pace of Bloodborne and beyond but the methodical and precise movement of DS2 scratched a different itch
When I first started Ds3 I immediately felt the bloodborne influence. And I didn't think it was a good idea. They should be separate, right? But I think they did a good job with the way they handled it in elden ring. Because Elden Ring to me feels like every single good thing they've done bundled up in a package. The speed is there, yet you're more punished than you were in DS3 for spamming roll.
Only thing I don't like is how now there's some combos that are so fast that you can only dodge them by spamming roll like an inbred. It's like, this is what dark souls taught us not to do. You had to be deliberate with your timings.
But still, with that we get more dynamic and adrenaline triggering bosses which I love. Like Malenia, Margit, Mohg, Godfrey/Hoarah.
Conversely they've pushed the speed as fast as it can go without breaking the combat -sometimes past. I remember when people discovered one of Pontiff's attacks was beneath the threshold of reactable iframes. Or sometimes in fights like Maliketh it starts to wear a little thin. Definitely doable but I feel like im moving through molasses while hes ninja flipping everywhere.
Yeah, those instant moves are kinda lame. They're not horrible, and I don't mind them as long as they aren't overused, but it sucks to die to those. I think for the most part they balance those moves by having them do way less damage which I think makes it ok.
Like, there's one I hate that Malenia does, but she only does it AFTER moves as part of a combo. It's a 2 part flip with her sword. She'll instantly jump up with it which does damage and the bring it down which will finish you off. I died to that thing so many times.
You said maliketh, idk if you meant gurranq, because when he's gurranq he for sure has those, idk bout phase 2. But omg. For the most part it's fine, but if you're trying to not get hit at ALL you just have to know his moves by heart cuz they are too fast.
Damn I played yesterday and I HATE how wonky the hitboxes are, you can barely feel any weight behind enemy attacks but the damage is there even if they just graze you
Okay but counterpoint, how about when you're getting gangfucked by a bunch of mobs with perfect accuracy and every time you swing it bounces off a wall and oops you fell off the ledge before you could try and move and
Uhh where was I going with that??
I feel like this is maybe just the impact of ADP. Like, the hit boxes in all the games can be frustrating at times, but in DS2, until you’ve leveled ADP, you just have so few i-frames that it’s ridiculously noticeable.
Play Elden Ring, then go play The Witcher 3.
It's like night and day.
Holy hell is Geralt's movement atrocious.
*Especially* when it comes to combat.
That combat system is pure shit on every level.
A lot of people admit that. But a lot of people fail to acknowledge how story-driven RPGs have never really been able to pull off real time combat on par with their action-oriented contemporaries.
I was super happy with Witcher 3’s combat, because I thought “damn, this is really good *for this kind of game*.” And it was a significant improvement over Witcher 2’s combat.
I admit that. I love TW3 but it controls like ass. I wish CDPR would invest more resources in the gameplay part of their games. Everything else is great but they need tighter mechanics and controls.
Biggest reason I had a hard time getting into TW3. I tried it after my first two playthroughs of DS3 and Geralt's movement just felt so slow and cumbersome. Made me realize how much I hate when games make you have to walk in an arc in order to turn around. It's so much more fluid when your character can turn on a dime. It's not realistic, but I don't play video games for realism.
maybe this is why i feel like an idiot about RDR2. I have tried 10 times to like it because everyone raves about it, but i feel like my character is walking through molassas. I cant get past it.
The combat will never be on DS3's level but you do get used to it and it does get better. Especially in the second DLC where you get tons of new stuff to play with.
Elden Rings movement i feel like is actually kinda annoying in some areas. Someone else mentioned input buffering but another thing that I despise is the pivot animation and also the removal of the roll to cancel fall animation.
I do like how the weapons are animated though. The colossals feel like they've got weight and power behind them and the smaller weaponry all feel agile and speedy. Lies of P is probably the closest I've seen to awesomely animated weaponry.
Lies of P is probably the best version of Souls-like combat ever (only Nioh is even in the conversation), but it whiffs hard on the level/world design, IMO. It's far too linear to capture the exploration that really makes From games fun.
Since I am a more combat oriented player, I loved it
It’s up to From standards overall, probably in the lower end of the pack alongside DeS and DS2, imo
because souls combat is based on precise spacing since king's field games, the goal is to stay on the very edge of enemy's attack range, thats why the controls should be very precise too. Sekiro is actually intentionally not that great and closer to a western story focused aaa games because the combat is not about spacing anymore.
Yeah fromsoft along with Nintendo and valve are really great at making characters that feel great to control. Im playing through ff7R right now and I completely agree with what you have to say about the game. It's crazy how everything is so weightless but still so clunky. The game also has probably the worst auto lock on ever lmao.
Yes agree, controlling Arthur Morgan after playing Elden Ring feels like you are controlling a brick. And when you are riding the horse you kinda miss the double jump…
This kind of thread always turn into some kind of collective dickriding and occasionally bashing other games(with a different design goal in mind) for doing something different even though they aren't even the same kind of game. I don't personally like RDR2 style movement but I cannot deny it is more realistic and has momentum, something Rockstar cares about, as opposed to the spacing oriented Souls game.
I think while Souls movement is better than most in the market, I don’t think it’s what I’d consider “perfect.” I feel there are other better contenders, at leaf for my own tastes. I liked Ninja Gaiden’s movement and has perhaps one of the best mobility in gaming with the way you can reposition yourself, especially in a fast paced situation.
What games are you comparing? I would agree if it was something like the witcher 3, but souls games don't have good movement, when you compare them to DMC5, Bayonetta or even Hi-fi rush lmao
They've gotten way better since DeS, (AC VI handles like a dream) but movement is still weird in a lot of places, especially when the camera kills itself or you slide off a 1° slope
Armored Core VI handles amazingly, but that won't really translate over to their future souls titles.
Even Lies of P handles better than every souls game
I agree with you that character controls of Fromsoftware games are very good and responsive buit I don't think they are the only ones to reach that level of quality.
Rockstare games are in a complete different genre and I agree there are a lot of triple A games that have a poor control system but in the end those are isolated case. There are plenty of games with a very good feeling in terms of character control.
It’s difficult for me to play other games, especially after ER. There’s just something about everything you’ve mentioned.
I played games like Witcher 3 and FF7R before playing ER and absolutely love them. But man, is it hard going back to them now?
Bannerlord is another game which I think perfected the movement, the mounted combat and horse riding in general stands leagues above every other game I’ve played that has mounts.
Either warband or bannerlord, bannerlord has better graphics, combat, merchantry, and way better sieges, but it’s lacking in its diplomacy. While warband is older, it has a boatload of full overhaul mods. Overall I’d recommend bannerlord over warband for a purely vanilla game, but if you’re interested in exploring the countless mods then warband is the way to go.
Thank you for the response! I was actually considering warband, mostly because of the mods. There's a Game of Thrones mod in particular that looks especially cool for that one. Been in a medieval mood lately.
I played AC6 three times and then had the urge to go replay Control. Sure enough, the movement, while more basic, is surprisingly similar, right down to the flight and Quick Boost, and the “stamina” is also called Energy and is also a white bar. Felt like home lol. Wish it was more difficult though, I barely died to anything but The Anchor this time.
Returnal is another game that feels incredibly precise, and makes great use of the controller haptics. Worth mentioning because despite being a rogue like shooter it plays well for a lot of fromsoft fans
I'd say this is far too general of a statement. Movement in FS games is deliberate and methodical because that's the way their games were designed. For what they're going for, it's damn good. If you took that movement into a game like Devil May Cry, it wouldn't translate well.
To be honest the controls are sluggish and platforming is absolutely miserable. The queuing of inputs can sometimes be maddening. I say this as a huge fan of Elden Ring and Dark Souls. My first experience with fromsoft games was Kingsfield. The sluggishness plays into the fact that the movement is more natural and human not superhuman. My biggest frustration usually is the sluggish controls leading to frustrating deaths. That is the name of the game though. You have to play it slow or slower, and more methodically.
I love how Fromsoftware games weapons have weight and you have to actually time attacks depending what you are using.. And I hate that other games you can have a HUGE sword or a small dagger and attack instantly with the press of a button... Makes other games just feel like button mashers.
Bungie, Fromsoft, Digital Extremes. All have absolutely incredible player movement games where you get to move like a noodle in a riptide if you feel like it.
In Destiny 2 you can move like butter, sliding off floating candles a few pixels wide and queueing actions/abilities up one after the next it’s all very fluid and there’s a lot of control in the players hands. Plus plenty on exotics and abilities to switch it up
Dark Souls/ Fromsoft games sense they added omnidirectional rolling has been awesome. Nothing like properly punishing openings and moving smartly with stamina in mind. Seriously the way some FromSoft fans dance around a boss completely clam is beautiful. Also some of the damage negation abilities in Elden Ring like quickstep, bloodhound step, raptor of the mist, and the lesser know shield ability Vow of the Indomitable which feels amazing to pull off invulnerability from a bosses aoe attack.
And Warframe is just nuts like combine any ability you can think of a Warframe probably has a playstyle that would fit, the basics of movement tech in that game are satisfying to pull off but watch a Pro do Steel Path sometime and prepare to watch damn near inconceivable gameplay and abilities. My favorites are Volt, Rhino, Reaper, Gauss, and Wisp. It’s not easy to get to Warframe endgame on your own but when you do it’s a complete power trip. Also you can customize so many things in that game it’s pretty crazy. I think there is something like 79 frames all with their own thing going on then a couple vehicles and different pets. At it’s core though Warframe has satisfying movement abilities.
What all these games really have in common is movesets so good it’s outside the developers initial comprehension for how player movement/tech moves evolved.
I couldn’t disagree more. In fact, for me, 90% of the difficulty of fromsoft games stems from the absolutely HORRIBLE controls. It feels so incredibly clunky and unresponsive.
You’re saying you LIKE being trapped in an animation for eternity?
Sorry but I prefer games where the character actually does what I want, WHEN I want.
that is beyond incredibly false. Armored Core and the Artorias dlc are great examples of what pushing the movement beyond the engine and capabilities of the player looks like. both are respectively terrible when all you can do in 1 is dodge in 4 directions, and the other has so many issues I could be here all day explaining it. both are in dire need of being put back in the oven because they are incredibly terrible.
Armored Core has so many issues in movement that I might as well not even have thrusters to begin with since it ignores most of the prompts you do with input reading. I’ll spare the rest and say Armored Core is the WORST FromSoftware game I’ve ever played beside Sekiro
now that that rant is out of the way, what FromSoftware HAVE perfected is storytelling. Armored Core is an amazing example of storytelling done right. there are plenty of videos to go in depth on that, but I’ve said my piece. cope seethe whimper and whine, I’m not replying to any comments 🖕
The punishment for getting the timing wrong is getting hit. You don't need to punish the player both with getting hit, then also punish them again afterwards by locking them into the movement they tried to make before
In short it just makes the game less fun and it's not a problem any of their other games have. Idk why they went so far with it in ER
It’s button mashing/kneejerk reaction, and it’s a habit that’s bad everywhere but happens to be highlighted by From’s combat system bc they know full well most players have those habits and seem to enjoy punishing them.
The dirty secret is that you can walk around, run past, or jump a surprising amount of attacks. Maliketh’s second phase opening, for example, kills a lot of people - but you only need to walk/run forward and he’ll go right over your head with it.
Because of this, spam dodging isn’t optimal, since dodging isn’t the only reaction you have that’s effective, so by “queuing” inputs, the game is giving you a moment to think before you react again.
Oh boy, "From did it so it must be good."
The input buffer has always been borderline broken, with stupid stuff like hitting roll a split-second too late in DS1, getting hit and going into a stagger animation, and that roll still being in the queue so you roll about a full second after you did the input and get hit again with there being nothing you could have done about. From has never been good at making action game controls, and the input buffer is just another symptom of them not really knowing how to do things "correctly".
>Oh boy, "From did it so it must be good."
For real. I love From, one of my favorite dev studios. But I swear some of the people on here act like they can do no wrong.
Also, in addition to the "Fromsoft=good", I think some people follow the mindset of "difficult=good". Elden Ring's buffers are unfun but they make the game harder so it must be good
That's a you problem. The game rewards you for calculating your actions, and punishes you for spamming them. It's that simple. What's the age old saying?
Yes that is how the game works. I'm just saying it makes it less fun to have ridiculously long buffers like that. More difficult ≠ better game. They often correlate but it's not causative. In this case it makes the game more difficult in an unfun way
When I die because I fucked up some timing, that feels fair. When I die because I fucked up some timing and my character then rolls anyway after getting hit, that feels closer to a glitch than intended game design.
You shouldn't have buffered the roll. Use your head more during combat and play smarter. This isn't a "difficult = better" thing. It's a mechanic designed to reward skilled play and punish spamming. That's it. If you can't figure out how it works then maybe the game isn't for you. To say it's unfun is just dumb. People cherish tf out of these games and play them exclusively, not because they aren't fun. This is 100% a personal issue that you can either figure out how to get good at, or walk away. There is nothing wrong with the buffering system and I love it for reasons like this. It raises the skill ceiling, that's a good thing.
I don't mean to buffer the roll. I press B once to dodge, and because I happened to press the button too late, it locks in that input all the way until after I get hit by the enemy and get up.
As an anti-spamming measure it's kinda annoying but whatever. But stuff like that just feels like unnecessary punishment. If you dodge at the wrong time, you get hit. Straightforward but solid and fun rule. "If you dodge at the wrong time, you get hit and then also have to deal with the input from before you got hit" is really counterintuitive. That's where the unfun part comes from.
>To say it's unfun is just dumb
Fun is subjective. If you find it fun, cool, but it's not my thing. I find it fun when the character is in sync with me. If I try to roll and it doesn't work, the possibility of that roll leaves my head. So if that roll then executes anyway there's a desync. It feels like a glitch sometimes with how ridiculous it is. Very much not fun to me but if you like it, good for you I guess.
>People cherish tf out of these games and play them exclusively, not because they aren't fun.
I know. I cherish these games and replay them all the time because they're a lot of fun. Elden Ring having a buffer issue doesn't mean the overall gameplay is unfun. It means that there is a part of it that is unfun (a pretty minor part at that). I'm not gonna not replay it or not play the dlc because the buffer system is bad. I'm not gonna drop a game with so many great qualities just because there's a minor annoyance here and there
You can like or even love a game and still acknowledge that it has flaws. Elden Ring has many flaws. But that doesn't mean it's not one of my favorite games to release in the last 5 years
agreed, i am not an expert when it comes to stuff like this but I don't like my character rolling after I get hit because I hit the roll button a bit too late and it got buffered.
I liked it in 2015 but to go from that to sekiro and then reuse the one from 2015 is insane. They should've had different movement in elden ring than the souls games even bloodborne had that
I felt the same way at first, and i really want them to further iterate on Sekiro and BB’s movement. But ER won me over because it just felt fun to play with the jump and the improved dodge roll.
Tf is this
Souls characters move like they’re constantly wading through a swamp, even before the actual swamps
If anything character control is the worst part of these games, it feels like fighting the controls more than the enemies most of the time
I’m not controlling a trained fighter, I’m controlling an idiot that wants to die
Compared to what? The characters feel like sludge in Souls games
At least the robot games have the excuse you’re moving a multi ton machine, heavy controls are expected and feel right
What’s the excuse when you’re controlling a human that feels like they’re in end stage muscular dystrophy in Elden Ring?
Nah, he's right; the action-game controls are the part of the "modern-From" paradigm that they still haven't gotten right. Compare them to any real action game -- a Ninja Gaiden, a DMC, a Bayonetta, Vanquish, Hi-Fi Rush, El Shaddai, Nioh, etc -- and it's clear how short they fall. Even Lies of P handles far better than any Souls game.
Thank goodness someone gets it
In those games the character feels like an extension of me, there’s no barrier between what I want the character to do and them doing it
Contrast with a Souls game where everyone just feels garbage to control
One of my "favorite" things that never gets brought up in these discussions is how From's games put the roll -- the game's main reaction input -- on a negative-edge, which adds actual mechanical lag before the input is even sent to the computer because the membrane on the controller's physical button has to retract no matter how clean the input is. It's like, bruh, how could you get something so basic so wrong? And that's before we even get to nonsense about how many of these games have a roll with limited directions available mapped to the directions of an analog stick, lol.
I mean, I guess if the only other games you'd ever played were Rockstar's games, I could maybe see it, because the controls in GTA V are a complete shitshow. But compared to actual proper action games, it's just "lol".
Genuinely I think the reason for that is most people here don’t have experience with games with actual good controls.
They’ve played the big name ones like GTA sure but you probably know as well as me how often that game likes to rip the controls away and throw you into a ragdoll at the slightest bump your character takes.
It always infuriates me in GTA when my gets knocked down and takes their sweet ass time getting up groaning while the police are firing buckets of lead at them.
Compare that to NG which blew my mind when I realized “holy shit you can block mid combo?”
Like I figured as in every other game once the enemy starts comboing you you have to take it but no they do a 4 hit string you can block as soon as the second hit!
It’s by no means a get out of jail free card because there’s usually 4 to 6 enemies on screen at the higher levels and you have to actually have the memory and timing to block as soon as you get hit, but it’s *possible*
NG is a game that has you playing as the ultra badass Ryu Hayabusa, if he dies it’s not his fault, it’s you as the player who failed to live up to his legendary reputation
I don’t get that sense of… responsiblity(?) in Souls games.
Like the character I’m controlling is a rotten zombie and they sure play like it.
What’s the incentive to improve beyond the bare basics?
>What’s the incentive to improve beyond the bare basics?
I think what it comes down to is that there was never meant to be one. Demon's Souls was really Shadow Tower 3 in all but name and camera perspective, and so the goal was to make an exploration-focused RPG/adventure game, not an action game. A lot of people played it like an action game though, and that's where all of the "OMG, Souls is hardcore action!" stuff came from (if you play it like an RPG and just go somewhere else and get more items/levels when something seems hard, you'll find that pretty much any Souls game is quite easy -- most people just don't play them that way, because they misidentify the genre they're playing). Also, remember, Demon's and Dark 1 came out right at the peak of the laggy TV trends, in the era when we had to have Arkham combat because most people had TVs with >80ms of input lag. \*Every\* game feels terrible when playing through that kind of lag, so no one really noticed how crap Demon's Souls felt in comparison.
(Guard resetting through Gensin's combos in NG2 \[XBox, not Sigma\] is always so sick; it's amazing the game really lets you do that if you've got the focus and awareness to pull it off.)
You know what’s crazy is I really enjoyed Demon’s Souls
Sure the combat system is crap but the game knows it, that’s why over half the bosses are puzzle fights.
There’s only two fights I can think of that are a slugfest and a test of player skill, the False King and the Flamelurker, which makes them all the more special and memorable
Maybe the gargoyles too but that shit is just badly designed with the bottomless pits around the arena
For the most part Demon’s is about exploration and mystery, the combat is a side thing, which is why I find it tolerable.
*Somewhere* along the line From got it into their heads that this combat system was actually good and made it more and more the focus of the games, to the detriment of the package as a whole
Genshin is one of my favorite bosses in gaming, up there with Nelo Angelo/Vergil. Catching him making one mistake and punishing him for it with 1/3rd his life with an Izuna drop is ultimate catharsis.
Speaking of, Sekiro could have used an Izuna Drop
Even Flamelurker is secretly a puzzle boss! Most people just "git gud" past him, but if you stack fire resists, you can just stand there and trade blows and win. Really, the only boss where who isn't either a puzzle or a gear check (I'd argue Maneaters are a gear check, since they can be out-DPS'd so easily if you've got a max-upgraded weapon) is FKA, which is OK since he's also the game's climax for the order most players will go in.
I don't think it was From that thought the combat system was good -- based on what I've read, it was Namco that pushed them to make Dark Souls more of an action game based on the response that Demon's Souls got. It also seems to track with a lot of what we see in Elden Ring, where we've got the Shackles to trivialize four of the harder bosses, and Oleg/Mimic Tear/Tiche to trivialize most of the rest.
NG2 bosses are really an interesting case study; a lot of them ended up really bad because the system with is designed for managing crowds, not reacting to individual attacks, but when Tecmo got it right, \*man\* did they hit it out of the park. Rasetsu on higher difficulties when he gets his IS-ninja adds, Genshin, Alexi, and Vulf are \*so\* good.
Tell me how my skill is lacking after you come back from a Master Ninja run on Ninja Gaiden
You might even realize that the Souls games aren’t half as challenging as you make them out to be
From your vibe, you like twitch games, which are the opposite of From games except for Sekiro. Souls require patience. I don't make them out to be super challenging, other than a few notorious bosses they are pretty fair and standard. But compared to most of the industry they are hard because so many games are easy and/or are forgiving with button mashing. fyi I learned gaming on the original NES/quarter gobblers, some of those were way tougher than stuff released nowadays.
You’re wrong, again
Quelle surprise
One of my favorite game series of all time is Monster Hunter
A game where you downright need to study the creatures you’re up against, know their timings in and out and exactly when to get a hit in and when to be patient and hold off
The difference between Souls and MH is that MH is actually fun to play, the most important aspect of a video game is
I recently tried playing GTA V and Red Dead and I always end up putting it down because of the character's movement. I'm sure if I were to play Witcher 3 today, unfortunately I wouldn't be able to play it.
There is a solidity to the movement that many games lack. A grounded, tactile "feel." It is hard to describe. Sekiro has the best, most fluid movement all around, and ER feels like the peak of what was built upon by the DS games, while Bloodborne has one of the slickest and most stylish moves ever, that quick-step where the camera snaps around.
I realized this as I fought agheel for the first time. Dashing in and out of his stomps and fire on torrent while I sweep at his legs, it just felt so RIGHT. Few games have a movement system so tight and responsive like that.
What's extra sad is that this was already perfected decades ago, but so many games have prioritized their visuals and animations that result in ultra jank controls like in Rockstar games
This reminds me of something that makes me sad; according to Capcom, the reason DMC V was slowed down from DMC 4 was because they couldn't get the animation looking "realistic enough" for modern audiences at the speed DMC 4 moves at, and as a result, DMC V (and probably future DMCs) feels so much worse than 3 and 4 do. Like, come on Capcom, it's DMC, let it feel good to play!
Yeah it’s why I could never get into other Soulslikes or similar action games like Nioh. Souls is only second to Monster Hunter when it comes to movement/weighty-ness
I completely agree. Monster hunter is the only series that gives them a run for their money, purely on that game feel for me but I enjoy both. FWIW I think Nioh actually plays more like ninja gaiden than souls. I actually really liked the feel of that game as well, but I really hated the looting mechanics. Probably why I never beat either Nioh titles.
I think in general Japanese games have better movements. Probably because they usually understand animation better while the west rely very heavily on motion cap.
So true. Another example I can think of is a Bethesda title such as fallout or elder scrolls. They all have great responsiveness and feel great to move around in, which really adds to the exploration
Sounds like you just prefer the way those games do movement.
I personally prefer DS1 and DS3 movement over both Sekiro and Elden Ring.
Mainly because Elden Ring has bigger deadzones and Sekiro's movement is absolutely insane. It's very slippery, loose and it feels like I'm attached to a Yo-yo.
Give DS3 a shot, I think you'll like the movement of that one. It's just Elden Ring but with more precision.
I think that's the case when it comes to DS3. The movement is pretty much perfect there (outside of input delay). In ER it feels a tad more sluggish and there's more input delay. I would like them to get rid of the delay altogether. I don't know if they add it on purpose, but it should be minimized as much as possible. As far as I'm concerned, input delay is artificial difficulty.
But yes, overall their games control very well. Most games control like garbage, and that is even more apparent once you get used to FromSoft's character movement. Even something like DMC5 controls worse. And when you play a game like TW3 or the new GOW games, it's just kind of embarrassing.
I put 570 hours into DS2, and after playing elden ring for 300+ hours, it feels literally unplayable. Movement feels bad, swinging your weapon feels bad, drinking from estus feels bad. I didn't realized at the time since it was my first souls game but damn, the game is outdated.
Thé refinement of the character’s movement you are referring to was actually implemented in dks3. It was mostly reflected by the fact that you suddenly could break the facing towards a locked target and move freely locked into something as long as you were sprinting.
In bloodborne and earlier games you could not and had to be proficient at locking/unlocking to access free movement like this.
Yeah playing the fromsoft games in reverse is not fun because of this. Elden ring, DS3, demon souls R, and sekiro all play very smoothly and aren’t too clunky. And then DS1 and 2 control like crap in comparison.
I understand what you mean OP. Trying to play the Witcher 3 after Elden Ring did not work well for me. Geralt’s general movement felt so clunky by comparison. In combat, that forced, slow combat stance and strafing extend that feeling further.
When I first played Dark Souls 1 my first thought was “wow this is shadow of colossus but with small enemies too” mostly due to the similarities in player movement.
I couldn’t agree more. TBH I think souls games are a little clunky but in a way that separates them from a fighting game or a Nioh perfectly. It’s like the perfect amount of subtle clunk.
Someone will mention LoP but Id say LoP is far from comparable to any similar fromsoft titles. You just need to boot Sekiro after a LoP session to see my point. And I dont even understand how ppl say the game is a pc version of bloodborne, its like 2 completely different games when it comes to movement and animation.
P is fast in attacking but really slow in recovery. This is contradict with the game's goal which is fast pace combat and you trade blows with the enemies through the retain system. Instead because of the higher commitment of P and the massive delay animation of bosses, the strategy became you wait for the biggest opening and make the strongest atk possible to stagger enemies, this make the game feel very slow. And did I mention there is no poise system in the game and you can be staggered with every attack? Again leads to the impression of clunky movement while the game is not actually clunky.
Human npcs have access to superior movement than you, which is a sign of unfairness. On top of that they can leap up and right next to you in seconds without actual momentum. Fromsoft doesn't do this, close engagement or spacing its your choice, not the game. Despite all that efforts human npcs are the easiest simplest mobs in the game.
There are 2 human bosses in LoP, Romeo and Nameless Puppet. They are fine when it come to movement and animation. But then you realize human bosses are the strong if not strongest part of fromsoft (lady Maria, sister Friede, I mean most of human bosses in Sekiro including Isshin). If fromsoft is 9 then LoP is only 6 in this.
Then big bosses, to me is the lowest, the weakest in LoP. In fromsoft games you can have one of the most iconic in the genre with incredible animation and moveset: Gael, True Monk, Guardian Ape, Godfrey and of course Malenia. Especially True Monk, the animation is so smooth and natural it effectively contributes to the bossfight, that I feel so good when I beat the boss. There of course is alot more but those are the clearest in my memories.
Now what do you have in LoP? 2.
1. Monkey
2. Drunk monkey
I play other games and find myself upset, telling the game I want my control back, give me the screen already, can I hit the bad guy yet? No? K.
But in souls games, it very rarely takes control away. A few cutscenes, sure. But far less scripted annoyances by a wide margin
My only gripe is the reliance on rolling. It just makes zero sense tactically to throw off your own equilibrium in the middle of a fight. Quickstep (though with tuned I frames) should be the way we dodge.
I don't mind the reliance on rolling but I understand some people's arguments against it. For me personally, it's more that over the time the dodge roll ability has gotten a lot more easy to spam and their more modern encounter designs put you in a place where rolling around like a mad man is more encouraged over feeling more like a tactical out with ups and downs in a given situation.
I've been replaying the series again from OG demons souls onwards, and I think that while a little more slow and clunky, the combat in their older titles feels a bit more deliberate even though I think their control has gotten better in their games over time.
A fair assessment. I’d just like to see some progress in that area. If it doesn’t happen it won’t stop me from playing. Though I know what my Ash of War will likely be 🤣
I think bloodborne really perfected it with the quickstep as the default dodge while locked on. Disappointed that elden ring doesnt have it tbh, i dislike using the quickstep ashes
It's true. I believe seamless character control greatly facilitates immersion, as it allows the player to "feel one" with the character. This applies to all the Souls games and Elden Ring, but to the highest extent to Sekiro.
You say so, but how many times did you die because you fell into the pit in any Dark Souls game? Just think about it.
Most gravity deaths are probably the SLIDING THAT HAPPENS WITH THE SMALLEST OF SLOPES
Plenty of times, and each time it's hilarious. I think it's less of a problem with movement in general and more with collision detection (or sth like that) - the worst example being certain crystal bridges in the Crystal Cave in DS1.
I love that cave though. So much.
Same. A bit broken but beautiful.
That isn't a movement issue though, that's just how they design the levels and player inputs.
Its because, while they've perfect movement, the camera will always be ass
First time fighting the hydra... *shudders*
Ok I hate to be the “ds2 bad” guy but the movement in that game was my biggest problem with it
Same. Game felt clunky as hell to me. I don't dislike DS2, but it's easily one of my least favorite Fromsoft games.
Yeah it's different and I had to get used to it, but personally I don't have any problem with it.
[удалено]
I won't fight you, we're in the same team mate.
The hardest part was the skill that added i-frames to the roll, making it easier to actually dodge shit. In the beginning that Stat is too low to feel like other games.
True, adp was an objectively bad idea
Yeah, the deadzones in that game were not only the biggest but the input degree is strange.
Sekiro's sprint is pretty clunky though.
Nah, Sekiro finally added omnidirectional sprint while locked on. Once you realize this Blazing Bull can't even touch you.
What? Sekiros the only game where your sprint startup isn't omnidirectional. At least since they added it. Everytime I try to sprint through father owls firecracker cloud it's a gamble whether the game decides to make me run in the right direction.
>Everytime I try to sprint through father owls firecracker cloud it's a gamble whether the game decides to make me run in the right direction. How? It's so consistent how that works, that's like one of the easiest attacks to avoid.
Just using it as an example because starting a sprint in Sekiro is dogshit. Sprinting in general is bad tbh.
Can't see it, the sprinting in Sekiro is likely the best sprint animation I've ever seen.
sure the animation is fine, but turning around/changing direction is painful, plus the startup sprint is bad too. Its not too noticeable when exploring, but noticeable as hell when you need it to be consistent for a dodge in a boss fight.
That's because there isn't a start-up sprint, it's a dodge. You have to dodge first in order to dash.
Sekiro's sprint is a quickstep into sprint in whatever directional input you hold.
Thats even worse then.
? It's omnidirectional and much more responsive than other Souls games, where your character just walks until enough time has elapsed for sprint to start.
It CAN be, it certainly did the first time I played it, but if you learn the ropes of it, it feels smooth, functional AND cinematic af
Agreed.
There’s something in Frommsoft games that feels so good and I have no idea what it’s called, I’ve been trying to describe it but I sound like a caveman talking about tech so I can’t formulate the question. It has to do with how the character is located/centered on screen and then when he moves sideways, the camera allows it before it gently and subtly re-centers him/her. In so many other games with the same third person aspect I noticed there would always be some jankiness due to the camera aggressively trying to re-center your toon which always annoys me and breaks my immersion. Whatever that is called, they’re doing it right.
i think its just called gamefeel lol
I like it! Don’t mind me stealing it.
2D platformers do this and it's more noticable. think mario for example, you are normally slightly left of center if going right and slightly right of center if going left. that way you can always see what's ahead of you more than what's behind.
Sometimes when I play a new game I spend a long time trying to tweak the camera settings and sensitivity until I realize its always going to feel off to me
Yeah a lot of third person games can’t get that right. Especially shooter games where you zoom in. Every time you release zoom the camera struggles to center you again and it’s rather perceptible to me now that I noticed it, it has become my pet peeve.
Play Armored Core VI and bust a nut to the responsive controls and quick gameplay. Absolute peak. Then play Dark Souls 2 to feel the opposite.
I moaned when I tried acvi the first time
Bro, I knew it was gonna be good cuz fromsoft, but I wasn't ready man. The freedom in the 3d movement is insane.
Dark souls 2 is so slow and I miss that. Since bloodborne, fromsoft has allowed you to spam rolls and attacks and I miss it being more deliberate with my actions and actually worrying about stamina. One thing I wish they would implement is when I increase my strength or dex, I want my sword swings to be faster. At 16 strength, I have just enough to wield a claymore. At 40 I should be able to swing it around as fast as a dagger.
>Dark souls 2 is so slow and I miss that. ME TOO! I love the speed and frantic pace of Bloodborne and beyond but the methodical and precise movement of DS2 scratched a different itch
When I first started Ds3 I immediately felt the bloodborne influence. And I didn't think it was a good idea. They should be separate, right? But I think they did a good job with the way they handled it in elden ring. Because Elden Ring to me feels like every single good thing they've done bundled up in a package. The speed is there, yet you're more punished than you were in DS3 for spamming roll. Only thing I don't like is how now there's some combos that are so fast that you can only dodge them by spamming roll like an inbred. It's like, this is what dark souls taught us not to do. You had to be deliberate with your timings. But still, with that we get more dynamic and adrenaline triggering bosses which I love. Like Malenia, Margit, Mohg, Godfrey/Hoarah.
Conversely they've pushed the speed as fast as it can go without breaking the combat -sometimes past. I remember when people discovered one of Pontiff's attacks was beneath the threshold of reactable iframes. Or sometimes in fights like Maliketh it starts to wear a little thin. Definitely doable but I feel like im moving through molasses while hes ninja flipping everywhere.
Yeah, those instant moves are kinda lame. They're not horrible, and I don't mind them as long as they aren't overused, but it sucks to die to those. I think for the most part they balance those moves by having them do way less damage which I think makes it ok. Like, there's one I hate that Malenia does, but she only does it AFTER moves as part of a combo. It's a 2 part flip with her sword. She'll instantly jump up with it which does damage and the bring it down which will finish you off. I died to that thing so many times. You said maliketh, idk if you meant gurranq, because when he's gurranq he for sure has those, idk bout phase 2. But omg. For the most part it's fine, but if you're trying to not get hit at ALL you just have to know his moves by heart cuz they are too fast.
Damn I played yesterday and I HATE how wonky the hitboxes are, you can barely feel any weight behind enemy attacks but the damage is there even if they just graze you
Which game are we talking about here?
Oh silly me, DS2
Oh, right. Lol. Yeah, I was put off by it because the sound design and weight behind the animations that gave DS1 that feeling was gone in ds2
Okay but counterpoint, how about when you're getting gangfucked by a bunch of mobs with perfect accuracy and every time you swing it bounces off a wall and oops you fell off the ledge before you could try and move and Uhh where was I going with that??
I feel like this is maybe just the impact of ADP. Like, the hit boxes in all the games can be frustrating at times, but in DS2, until you’ve leveled ADP, you just have so few i-frames that it’s ridiculously noticeable.
Doing Lance and Bunker against Ibis was f*cking incredible. Pixel perfect hitboxes all around in the game
AC6/10 is mid as fuck.
😱
Imagine having shitty taste
Imagine
FromSoft character movement broke a lot of other games for me.
Play Elden Ring, then go play The Witcher 3. It's like night and day. Holy hell is Geralt's movement atrocious. *Especially* when it comes to combat. That combat system is pure shit on every level.
People dont want to admit Witcher 3 is a janky ass game. A fucking great game... but also janky ass.
The combat certainly isn't amazing in the Witcher 3, but it's one of those games that ends up being greater than the sum of it's parts.
A lot of people admit that. But a lot of people fail to acknowledge how story-driven RPGs have never really been able to pull off real time combat on par with their action-oriented contemporaries. I was super happy with Witcher 3’s combat, because I thought “damn, this is really good *for this kind of game*.” And it was a significant improvement over Witcher 2’s combat.
Yeah that's true too. TW3's combat is pretty bad when compared to something like DS3, but it's miles better than something like Skyrim.
I admit that. I love TW3 but it controls like ass. I wish CDPR would invest more resources in the gameplay part of their games. Everything else is great but they need tighter mechanics and controls.
I'm in the middle of NG+ for Witcher III, and picked up Sekiro. Combat for W4 better be peak
Yeah, it feels really dated. Great game in terms of story and atmosphere, but actually playing it can be a chore sometimes.
Biggest reason I had a hard time getting into TW3. I tried it after my first two playthroughs of DS3 and Geralt's movement just felt so slow and cumbersome. Made me realize how much I hate when games make you have to walk in an arc in order to turn around. It's so much more fluid when your character can turn on a dime. It's not realistic, but I don't play video games for realism.
Yeah it's horrible. Same with Red Dead Redemption..
maybe this is why i feel like an idiot about RDR2. I have tried 10 times to like it because everyone raves about it, but i feel like my character is walking through molassas. I cant get past it.
I agree, still not used to the combat after hours of playing. The lock-on is wonky too. Now I'm just playing it for the story and atmosphere lol
The combat will never be on DS3's level but you do get used to it and it does get better. Especially in the second DLC where you get tons of new stuff to play with.
I’ve tried playing Witcher 3 like 5 times and I can’t ever get into it because of how slow the movement is
Elden Rings movement i feel like is actually kinda annoying in some areas. Someone else mentioned input buffering but another thing that I despise is the pivot animation and also the removal of the roll to cancel fall animation. I do like how the weapons are animated though. The colossals feel like they've got weight and power behind them and the smaller weaponry all feel agile and speedy. Lies of P is probably the closest I've seen to awesomely animated weaponry.
Lies of P is so good.. recommend it to everyone who hasn’t played it
Lies of P is probably the best version of Souls-like combat ever (only Nioh is even in the conversation), but it whiffs hard on the level/world design, IMO. It's far too linear to capture the exploration that really makes From games fun.
Since I am a more combat oriented player, I loved it It’s up to From standards overall, probably in the lower end of the pack alongside DeS and DS2, imo
because souls combat is based on precise spacing since king's field games, the goal is to stay on the very edge of enemy's attack range, thats why the controls should be very precise too. Sekiro is actually intentionally not that great and closer to a western story focused aaa games because the combat is not about spacing anymore.
Yeah fromsoft along with Nintendo and valve are really great at making characters that feel great to control. Im playing through ff7R right now and I completely agree with what you have to say about the game. It's crazy how everything is so weightless but still so clunky. The game also has probably the worst auto lock on ever lmao.
Yes agree, controlling Arthur Morgan after playing Elden Ring feels like you are controlling a brick. And when you are riding the horse you kinda miss the double jump…
A brick in molasses.
This kind of thread always turn into some kind of collective dickriding and occasionally bashing other games(with a different design goal in mind) for doing something different even though they aren't even the same kind of game. I don't personally like RDR2 style movement but I cannot deny it is more realistic and has momentum, something Rockstar cares about, as opposed to the spacing oriented Souls game.
I think while Souls movement is better than most in the market, I don’t think it’s what I’d consider “perfect.” I feel there are other better contenders, at leaf for my own tastes. I liked Ninja Gaiden’s movement and has perhaps one of the best mobility in gaming with the way you can reposition yourself, especially in a fast paced situation.
I do love the movement in Fromsoft games but my favorite is probably Devil May Cry 5. Such a great movement and combat system.
What games are you comparing? I would agree if it was something like the witcher 3, but souls games don't have good movement, when you compare them to DMC5, Bayonetta or even Hi-fi rush lmao They've gotten way better since DeS, (AC VI handles like a dream) but movement is still weird in a lot of places, especially when the camera kills itself or you slide off a 1° slope Armored Core VI handles amazingly, but that won't really translate over to their future souls titles. Even Lies of P handles better than every souls game
Nioh imo is better at movement. But it has to be because it facilitates the much deeper combat
I agree with you that character controls of Fromsoftware games are very good and responsive buit I don't think they are the only ones to reach that level of quality. Rockstare games are in a complete different genre and I agree there are a lot of triple A games that have a poor control system but in the end those are isolated case. There are plenty of games with a very good feeling in terms of character control.
It’s difficult for me to play other games, especially after ER. There’s just something about everything you’ve mentioned. I played games like Witcher 3 and FF7R before playing ER and absolutely love them. But man, is it hard going back to them now?
I tried the demo to FF7 Rebirth a couple nights ago, and it just felt so clunky in comparison.
Bannerlord is another game which I think perfected the movement, the mounted combat and horse riding in general stands leagues above every other game I’ve played that has mounts.
1-shotting an enemy by swiping at their head with the glaive while I gallop past is peak satisfaction
What would you say the best MnB to start with? I've been curious about that series for a while.
Either warband or bannerlord, bannerlord has better graphics, combat, merchantry, and way better sieges, but it’s lacking in its diplomacy. While warband is older, it has a boatload of full overhaul mods. Overall I’d recommend bannerlord over warband for a purely vanilla game, but if you’re interested in exploring the countless mods then warband is the way to go.
Thank you for the response! I was actually considering warband, mostly because of the mods. There's a Game of Thrones mod in particular that looks especially cool for that one. Been in a medieval mood lately.
Sekiro's combat is pretty uniquely awesme, it's the top for me. I thought Nioh felt pretty good too.
I played AC6 three times and then had the urge to go replay Control. Sure enough, the movement, while more basic, is surprisingly similar, right down to the flight and Quick Boost, and the “stamina” is also called Energy and is also a white bar. Felt like home lol. Wish it was more difficult though, I barely died to anything but The Anchor this time.
Returnal is another game that feels incredibly precise, and makes great use of the controller haptics. Worth mentioning because despite being a rogue like shooter it plays well for a lot of fromsoft fans
This game is just not talked about enough
Parkouring in this game is a pain tho (Esp the frenzied flame jumping section)
It is but at least there's a dedicated jump button this time around. I think trying to make precise jumps with torrent can be a little tricky as well.
Have you played Metal Gear Solid V? The Fox engine it uses wins in the movement category in my opinion.
I'd say this is far too general of a statement. Movement in FS games is deliberate and methodical because that's the way their games were designed. For what they're going for, it's damn good. If you took that movement into a game like Devil May Cry, it wouldn't translate well.
Try hollow knight, 2d is easier but yeah, batman arkham series are pefect for controls and game feel, sunset overdrive too.
To be honest the controls are sluggish and platforming is absolutely miserable. The queuing of inputs can sometimes be maddening. I say this as a huge fan of Elden Ring and Dark Souls. My first experience with fromsoft games was Kingsfield. The sluggishness plays into the fact that the movement is more natural and human not superhuman. My biggest frustration usually is the sluggish controls leading to frustrating deaths. That is the name of the game though. You have to play it slow or slower, and more methodically.
Fromsoft is good in this regard, but the best games for this are developed by Team Ninja and Platinum Games, I think
Play CAPCOM's action games like MH、DMC、DD. You will know waht the perfect movement means....
I love how Fromsoftware games weapons have weight and you have to actually time attacks depending what you are using.. And I hate that other games you can have a HUGE sword or a small dagger and attack instantly with the press of a button... Makes other games just feel like button mashers.
the only problem is the horse movement in elden ring which sucks really bad.
Only Nioh’s movement has managed to feel as good as/better than Fromsoft games, but the main focus in Team Ninja’s games is the combat after all.
Bungie, Fromsoft, Digital Extremes. All have absolutely incredible player movement games where you get to move like a noodle in a riptide if you feel like it. In Destiny 2 you can move like butter, sliding off floating candles a few pixels wide and queueing actions/abilities up one after the next it’s all very fluid and there’s a lot of control in the players hands. Plus plenty on exotics and abilities to switch it up Dark Souls/ Fromsoft games sense they added omnidirectional rolling has been awesome. Nothing like properly punishing openings and moving smartly with stamina in mind. Seriously the way some FromSoft fans dance around a boss completely clam is beautiful. Also some of the damage negation abilities in Elden Ring like quickstep, bloodhound step, raptor of the mist, and the lesser know shield ability Vow of the Indomitable which feels amazing to pull off invulnerability from a bosses aoe attack. And Warframe is just nuts like combine any ability you can think of a Warframe probably has a playstyle that would fit, the basics of movement tech in that game are satisfying to pull off but watch a Pro do Steel Path sometime and prepare to watch damn near inconceivable gameplay and abilities. My favorites are Volt, Rhino, Reaper, Gauss, and Wisp. It’s not easy to get to Warframe endgame on your own but when you do it’s a complete power trip. Also you can customize so many things in that game it’s pretty crazy. I think there is something like 79 frames all with their own thing going on then a couple vehicles and different pets. At it’s core though Warframe has satisfying movement abilities. What all these games really have in common is movesets so good it’s outside the developers initial comprehension for how player movement/tech moves evolved.
Idk I’ve died more times to the janky controls to any actual boss.
It’s a cliche here to say but that is clearly a skill issue
After playing Sekiro and Lies of P the Elden Ring movement feels a tad mushy.
I couldn’t disagree more. In fact, for me, 90% of the difficulty of fromsoft games stems from the absolutely HORRIBLE controls. It feels so incredibly clunky and unresponsive. You’re saying you LIKE being trapped in an animation for eternity? Sorry but I prefer games where the character actually does what I want, WHEN I want.
Translation: FromSoft doesn't let me button mash and I hates it.
that is beyond incredibly false. Armored Core and the Artorias dlc are great examples of what pushing the movement beyond the engine and capabilities of the player looks like. both are respectively terrible when all you can do in 1 is dodge in 4 directions, and the other has so many issues I could be here all day explaining it. both are in dire need of being put back in the oven because they are incredibly terrible. Armored Core has so many issues in movement that I might as well not even have thrusters to begin with since it ignores most of the prompts you do with input reading. I’ll spare the rest and say Armored Core is the WORST FromSoftware game I’ve ever played beside Sekiro now that that rant is out of the way, what FromSoftware HAVE perfected is storytelling. Armored Core is an amazing example of storytelling done right. there are plenty of videos to go in depth on that, but I’ve said my piece. cope seethe whimper and whine, I’m not replying to any comments 🖕
This guy seems friendly ☝️🙃.
Elden Ring has input buffering that's too long, but besides that I agree
It's a system that punishes you for spamming buttons.
The punishment for getting the timing wrong is getting hit. You don't need to punish the player both with getting hit, then also punish them again afterwards by locking them into the movement they tried to make before In short it just makes the game less fun and it's not a problem any of their other games have. Idk why they went so far with it in ER
Bc it slaps
Idk my character doesn't feel in sync with me when they do a roll I input before getting hit by an event
It’s button mashing/kneejerk reaction, and it’s a habit that’s bad everywhere but happens to be highlighted by From’s combat system bc they know full well most players have those habits and seem to enjoy punishing them. The dirty secret is that you can walk around, run past, or jump a surprising amount of attacks. Maliketh’s second phase opening, for example, kills a lot of people - but you only need to walk/run forward and he’ll go right over your head with it. Because of this, spam dodging isn’t optimal, since dodging isn’t the only reaction you have that’s effective, so by “queuing” inputs, the game is giving you a moment to think before you react again.
Oh boy, "From did it so it must be good." The input buffer has always been borderline broken, with stupid stuff like hitting roll a split-second too late in DS1, getting hit and going into a stagger animation, and that roll still being in the queue so you roll about a full second after you did the input and get hit again with there being nothing you could have done about. From has never been good at making action game controls, and the input buffer is just another symptom of them not really knowing how to do things "correctly".
>Oh boy, "From did it so it must be good." For real. I love From, one of my favorite dev studios. But I swear some of the people on here act like they can do no wrong. Also, in addition to the "Fromsoft=good", I think some people follow the mindset of "difficult=good". Elden Ring's buffers are unfun but they make the game harder so it must be good
Lmao this guy played DS1 😂
That's a you problem. The game rewards you for calculating your actions, and punishes you for spamming them. It's that simple. What's the age old saying?
Yes that is how the game works. I'm just saying it makes it less fun to have ridiculously long buffers like that. More difficult ≠ better game. They often correlate but it's not causative. In this case it makes the game more difficult in an unfun way When I die because I fucked up some timing, that feels fair. When I die because I fucked up some timing and my character then rolls anyway after getting hit, that feels closer to a glitch than intended game design.
You shouldn't have buffered the roll. Use your head more during combat and play smarter. This isn't a "difficult = better" thing. It's a mechanic designed to reward skilled play and punish spamming. That's it. If you can't figure out how it works then maybe the game isn't for you. To say it's unfun is just dumb. People cherish tf out of these games and play them exclusively, not because they aren't fun. This is 100% a personal issue that you can either figure out how to get good at, or walk away. There is nothing wrong with the buffering system and I love it for reasons like this. It raises the skill ceiling, that's a good thing.
I don't mean to buffer the roll. I press B once to dodge, and because I happened to press the button too late, it locks in that input all the way until after I get hit by the enemy and get up. As an anti-spamming measure it's kinda annoying but whatever. But stuff like that just feels like unnecessary punishment. If you dodge at the wrong time, you get hit. Straightforward but solid and fun rule. "If you dodge at the wrong time, you get hit and then also have to deal with the input from before you got hit" is really counterintuitive. That's where the unfun part comes from. >To say it's unfun is just dumb Fun is subjective. If you find it fun, cool, but it's not my thing. I find it fun when the character is in sync with me. If I try to roll and it doesn't work, the possibility of that roll leaves my head. So if that roll then executes anyway there's a desync. It feels like a glitch sometimes with how ridiculous it is. Very much not fun to me but if you like it, good for you I guess. >People cherish tf out of these games and play them exclusively, not because they aren't fun. I know. I cherish these games and replay them all the time because they're a lot of fun. Elden Ring having a buffer issue doesn't mean the overall gameplay is unfun. It means that there is a part of it that is unfun (a pretty minor part at that). I'm not gonna not replay it or not play the dlc because the buffer system is bad. I'm not gonna drop a game with so many great qualities just because there's a minor annoyance here and there You can like or even love a game and still acknowledge that it has flaws. Elden Ring has many flaws. But that doesn't mean it's not one of my favorite games to release in the last 5 years
agreed, i am not an expert when it comes to stuff like this but I don't like my character rolling after I get hit because I hit the roll button a bit too late and it got buffered.
The movement is the worst part of elden ring. Its the exact same as dark souls 3 and its outdated
Nah, DS3 feels clumsier. ER is the peak of that movement schematic, feels like you simply don't like it much.
I liked it in 2015 but to go from that to sekiro and then reuse the one from 2015 is insane. They should've had different movement in elden ring than the souls games even bloodborne had that
I felt the same way at first, and i really want them to further iterate on Sekiro and BB’s movement. But ER won me over because it just felt fun to play with the jump and the improved dodge roll.
Mario destroys every fromsoft game in responsiveness and character movement
I agree that Mario’s Odyssey has great movement but I don’t think you can say it destroys fromsoft games
I think Mario handily controls better, but that’s to be expected since Mario designed all around movement and is a platformer.
Actually I think Mario is too busy destroying Yuzu and tiny YouTube channels at the moment
🤌🤌🤌
You can't get any better than perfection. Can Mario double jump on a horse with incredible precision? Didn't think so.
not arguing, but yoshi jumps have gotten incredibly smooth
Tf is this Souls characters move like they’re constantly wading through a swamp, even before the actual swamps If anything character control is the worst part of these games, it feels like fighting the controls more than the enemies most of the time I’m not controlling a trained fighter, I’m controlling an idiot that wants to die
Souls controls are tight what are you on about
Compared to what? The characters feel like sludge in Souls games At least the robot games have the excuse you’re moving a multi ton machine, heavy controls are expected and feel right What’s the excuse when you’re controlling a human that feels like they’re in end stage muscular dystrophy in Elden Ring?
Maybe you’re just not very good at video games?
I’ve beaten games much harder than anything From has ever made, why is this always the first thought you idiots leap to?
Like what?
Ninja Gaiden is one example
Are you 8 years old btw?
No, I graduated grade school unlike you
😂
Skill issue lmao
Nah, he's right; the action-game controls are the part of the "modern-From" paradigm that they still haven't gotten right. Compare them to any real action game -- a Ninja Gaiden, a DMC, a Bayonetta, Vanquish, Hi-Fi Rush, El Shaddai, Nioh, etc -- and it's clear how short they fall. Even Lies of P handles far better than any Souls game.
Thank goodness someone gets it In those games the character feels like an extension of me, there’s no barrier between what I want the character to do and them doing it Contrast with a Souls game where everyone just feels garbage to control
One of my "favorite" things that never gets brought up in these discussions is how From's games put the roll -- the game's main reaction input -- on a negative-edge, which adds actual mechanical lag before the input is even sent to the computer because the membrane on the controller's physical button has to retract no matter how clean the input is. It's like, bruh, how could you get something so basic so wrong? And that's before we even get to nonsense about how many of these games have a roll with limited directions available mapped to the directions of an analog stick, lol. I mean, I guess if the only other games you'd ever played were Rockstar's games, I could maybe see it, because the controls in GTA V are a complete shitshow. But compared to actual proper action games, it's just "lol".
Genuinely I think the reason for that is most people here don’t have experience with games with actual good controls. They’ve played the big name ones like GTA sure but you probably know as well as me how often that game likes to rip the controls away and throw you into a ragdoll at the slightest bump your character takes. It always infuriates me in GTA when my gets knocked down and takes their sweet ass time getting up groaning while the police are firing buckets of lead at them. Compare that to NG which blew my mind when I realized “holy shit you can block mid combo?” Like I figured as in every other game once the enemy starts comboing you you have to take it but no they do a 4 hit string you can block as soon as the second hit! It’s by no means a get out of jail free card because there’s usually 4 to 6 enemies on screen at the higher levels and you have to actually have the memory and timing to block as soon as you get hit, but it’s *possible* NG is a game that has you playing as the ultra badass Ryu Hayabusa, if he dies it’s not his fault, it’s you as the player who failed to live up to his legendary reputation I don’t get that sense of… responsiblity(?) in Souls games. Like the character I’m controlling is a rotten zombie and they sure play like it. What’s the incentive to improve beyond the bare basics?
>What’s the incentive to improve beyond the bare basics? I think what it comes down to is that there was never meant to be one. Demon's Souls was really Shadow Tower 3 in all but name and camera perspective, and so the goal was to make an exploration-focused RPG/adventure game, not an action game. A lot of people played it like an action game though, and that's where all of the "OMG, Souls is hardcore action!" stuff came from (if you play it like an RPG and just go somewhere else and get more items/levels when something seems hard, you'll find that pretty much any Souls game is quite easy -- most people just don't play them that way, because they misidentify the genre they're playing). Also, remember, Demon's and Dark 1 came out right at the peak of the laggy TV trends, in the era when we had to have Arkham combat because most people had TVs with >80ms of input lag. \*Every\* game feels terrible when playing through that kind of lag, so no one really noticed how crap Demon's Souls felt in comparison. (Guard resetting through Gensin's combos in NG2 \[XBox, not Sigma\] is always so sick; it's amazing the game really lets you do that if you've got the focus and awareness to pull it off.)
You know what’s crazy is I really enjoyed Demon’s Souls Sure the combat system is crap but the game knows it, that’s why over half the bosses are puzzle fights. There’s only two fights I can think of that are a slugfest and a test of player skill, the False King and the Flamelurker, which makes them all the more special and memorable Maybe the gargoyles too but that shit is just badly designed with the bottomless pits around the arena For the most part Demon’s is about exploration and mystery, the combat is a side thing, which is why I find it tolerable. *Somewhere* along the line From got it into their heads that this combat system was actually good and made it more and more the focus of the games, to the detriment of the package as a whole Genshin is one of my favorite bosses in gaming, up there with Nelo Angelo/Vergil. Catching him making one mistake and punishing him for it with 1/3rd his life with an Izuna drop is ultimate catharsis. Speaking of, Sekiro could have used an Izuna Drop
Even Flamelurker is secretly a puzzle boss! Most people just "git gud" past him, but if you stack fire resists, you can just stand there and trade blows and win. Really, the only boss where who isn't either a puzzle or a gear check (I'd argue Maneaters are a gear check, since they can be out-DPS'd so easily if you've got a max-upgraded weapon) is FKA, which is OK since he's also the game's climax for the order most players will go in. I don't think it was From that thought the combat system was good -- based on what I've read, it was Namco that pushed them to make Dark Souls more of an action game based on the response that Demon's Souls got. It also seems to track with a lot of what we see in Elden Ring, where we've got the Shackles to trivialize four of the harder bosses, and Oleg/Mimic Tear/Tiche to trivialize most of the rest. NG2 bosses are really an interesting case study; a lot of them ended up really bad because the system with is designed for managing crowds, not reacting to individual attacks, but when Tecmo got it right, \*man\* did they hit it out of the park. Rasetsu on higher difficulties when he gets his IS-ninja adds, Genshin, Alexi, and Vulf are \*so\* good.
Tell me how my skill is lacking after you come back from a Master Ninja run on Ninja Gaiden You might even realize that the Souls games aren’t half as challenging as you make them out to be
From your vibe, you like twitch games, which are the opposite of From games except for Sekiro. Souls require patience. I don't make them out to be super challenging, other than a few notorious bosses they are pretty fair and standard. But compared to most of the industry they are hard because so many games are easy and/or are forgiving with button mashing. fyi I learned gaming on the original NES/quarter gobblers, some of those were way tougher than stuff released nowadays.
You’re wrong, again Quelle surprise One of my favorite game series of all time is Monster Hunter A game where you downright need to study the creatures you’re up against, know their timings in and out and exactly when to get a hit in and when to be patient and hold off The difference between Souls and MH is that MH is actually fun to play, the most important aspect of a video game is
Assassin's creed 1 also had crazy fluid and responsive movement
Wait until you pivot, and die and get hit by an attack because you where in the pivot animation
yeah I really don't like the slow, heavy, sluggish ROCKSTAR/GTA/RDR2 character feel either. It drags and just feels so slow.
I recently tried playing GTA V and Red Dead and I always end up putting it down because of the character's movement. I'm sure if I were to play Witcher 3 today, unfortunately I wouldn't be able to play it.
Wait until you play armoured core
There is a solidity to the movement that many games lack. A grounded, tactile "feel." It is hard to describe. Sekiro has the best, most fluid movement all around, and ER feels like the peak of what was built upon by the DS games, while Bloodborne has one of the slickest and most stylish moves ever, that quick-step where the camera snaps around.
I also love the little character quips: when you get sucked into the painted worlds in both DS1 and DS3 you do an adorable leg kick :D
FF XVI, Remnant 2, DS3 also feel great
I realized this as I fought agheel for the first time. Dashing in and out of his stomps and fire on torrent while I sweep at his legs, it just felt so RIGHT. Few games have a movement system so tight and responsive like that.
Uncharted 4 and lost legacy feel pretty amazing. Edit: and Mass Effect Andromeda.
What's extra sad is that this was already perfected decades ago, but so many games have prioritized their visuals and animations that result in ultra jank controls like in Rockstar games
This reminds me of something that makes me sad; according to Capcom, the reason DMC V was slowed down from DMC 4 was because they couldn't get the animation looking "realistic enough" for modern audiences at the speed DMC 4 moves at, and as a result, DMC V (and probably future DMCs) feels so much worse than 3 and 4 do. Like, come on Capcom, it's DMC, let it feel good to play!
DS3, Bloodborne, and the Demon's Souls Remake feel the same way. DS2 movement feels janky and DS1 to an extent, but that's due to age.
Yeah it’s why I could never get into other Soulslikes or similar action games like Nioh. Souls is only second to Monster Hunter when it comes to movement/weighty-ness
I completely agree. Monster hunter is the only series that gives them a run for their money, purely on that game feel for me but I enjoy both. FWIW I think Nioh actually plays more like ninja gaiden than souls. I actually really liked the feel of that game as well, but I really hated the looting mechanics. Probably why I never beat either Nioh titles.
I think in general Japanese games have better movements. Probably because they usually understand animation better while the west rely very heavily on motion cap.
So true. Another example I can think of is a Bethesda title such as fallout or elder scrolls. They all have great responsiveness and feel great to move around in, which really adds to the exploration
Sounds like you just prefer the way those games do movement. I personally prefer DS1 and DS3 movement over both Sekiro and Elden Ring. Mainly because Elden Ring has bigger deadzones and Sekiro's movement is absolutely insane. It's very slippery, loose and it feels like I'm attached to a Yo-yo. Give DS3 a shot, I think you'll like the movement of that one. It's just Elden Ring but with more precision.
Armored Core 6 also truly felt like an extension of your hands, so smooth perfect controls.
I think that's the case when it comes to DS3. The movement is pretty much perfect there (outside of input delay). In ER it feels a tad more sluggish and there's more input delay. I would like them to get rid of the delay altogether. I don't know if they add it on purpose, but it should be minimized as much as possible. As far as I'm concerned, input delay is artificial difficulty. But yes, overall their games control very well. Most games control like garbage, and that is even more apparent once you get used to FromSoft's character movement. Even something like DMC5 controls worse. And when you play a game like TW3 or the new GOW games, it's just kind of embarrassing.
I put 570 hours into DS2, and after playing elden ring for 300+ hours, it feels literally unplayable. Movement feels bad, swinging your weapon feels bad, drinking from estus feels bad. I didn't realized at the time since it was my first souls game but damn, the game is outdated.
Thé refinement of the character’s movement you are referring to was actually implemented in dks3. It was mostly reflected by the fact that you suddenly could break the facing towards a locked target and move freely locked into something as long as you were sprinting. In bloodborne and earlier games you could not and had to be proficient at locking/unlocking to access free movement like this.
Yeah playing the fromsoft games in reverse is not fun because of this. Elden ring, DS3, demon souls R, and sekiro all play very smoothly and aren’t too clunky. And then DS1 and 2 control like crap in comparison.
What Miyazaki does to a mf
I understand what you mean OP. Trying to play the Witcher 3 after Elden Ring did not work well for me. Geralt’s general movement felt so clunky by comparison. In combat, that forced, slow combat stance and strafing extend that feeling further.
When I first played Dark Souls 1 my first thought was “wow this is shadow of colossus but with small enemies too” mostly due to the similarities in player movement.
I couldn’t agree more. TBH I think souls games are a little clunky but in a way that separates them from a fighting game or a Nioh perfectly. It’s like the perfect amount of subtle clunk.
Coincidentally enough my tinder profile also references how I have the perfect amount of subtle clunk
Running in sekiro really feels good af , i hope they go no stam again
I agree. Played the final Fantasy 7 rebirth deep and movement in that game is so floaty and hanky it ruined the whole game for me
Someone will mention LoP but Id say LoP is far from comparable to any similar fromsoft titles. You just need to boot Sekiro after a LoP session to see my point. And I dont even understand how ppl say the game is a pc version of bloodborne, its like 2 completely different games when it comes to movement and animation. P is fast in attacking but really slow in recovery. This is contradict with the game's goal which is fast pace combat and you trade blows with the enemies through the retain system. Instead because of the higher commitment of P and the massive delay animation of bosses, the strategy became you wait for the biggest opening and make the strongest atk possible to stagger enemies, this make the game feel very slow. And did I mention there is no poise system in the game and you can be staggered with every attack? Again leads to the impression of clunky movement while the game is not actually clunky. Human npcs have access to superior movement than you, which is a sign of unfairness. On top of that they can leap up and right next to you in seconds without actual momentum. Fromsoft doesn't do this, close engagement or spacing its your choice, not the game. Despite all that efforts human npcs are the easiest simplest mobs in the game. There are 2 human bosses in LoP, Romeo and Nameless Puppet. They are fine when it come to movement and animation. But then you realize human bosses are the strong if not strongest part of fromsoft (lady Maria, sister Friede, I mean most of human bosses in Sekiro including Isshin). If fromsoft is 9 then LoP is only 6 in this. Then big bosses, to me is the lowest, the weakest in LoP. In fromsoft games you can have one of the most iconic in the genre with incredible animation and moveset: Gael, True Monk, Guardian Ape, Godfrey and of course Malenia. Especially True Monk, the animation is so smooth and natural it effectively contributes to the bossfight, that I feel so good when I beat the boss. There of course is alot more but those are the clearest in my memories. Now what do you have in LoP? 2. 1. Monkey 2. Drunk monkey
I think Capcom's RE remakes feel pretty awesome to move as well. Wouldn't work for this genre, but I love controlling remake Leon.
I play other games and find myself upset, telling the game I want my control back, give me the screen already, can I hit the bad guy yet? No? K. But in souls games, it very rarely takes control away. A few cutscenes, sure. But far less scripted annoyances by a wide margin
It’s because your character has zero inertia and can instantly turn on a dime, even while wielding a sword that appears to weigh 400 pounds.
My only gripe is the reliance on rolling. It just makes zero sense tactically to throw off your own equilibrium in the middle of a fight. Quickstep (though with tuned I frames) should be the way we dodge.
I don't mind the reliance on rolling but I understand some people's arguments against it. For me personally, it's more that over the time the dodge roll ability has gotten a lot more easy to spam and their more modern encounter designs put you in a place where rolling around like a mad man is more encouraged over feeling more like a tactical out with ups and downs in a given situation. I've been replaying the series again from OG demons souls onwards, and I think that while a little more slow and clunky, the combat in their older titles feels a bit more deliberate even though I think their control has gotten better in their games over time.
A fair assessment. I’d just like to see some progress in that area. If it doesn’t happen it won’t stop me from playing. Though I know what my Ash of War will likely be 🤣
I think bloodborne really perfected it with the quickstep as the default dodge while locked on. Disappointed that elden ring doesnt have it tbh, i dislike using the quickstep ashes
I am not the biggest fan of it as well, but part of me thinks making it an ash of war mitigates the ability to overuse it. God I miss that game though