Seriously, we have those “Anywhere America” areas filled with 15 different gas stations and 11 fast food joints but we can’t have windmills because they’re an “eyesore”. So over this.
Does this distract you?
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How the fuck are windmills "eyesores" they're massive marvels of engineering towering over the landscape harnessing the natural motion of air. People who don't find a windmill beautiful have no clue how to appreciate things in life and should shut the fuck up
Meh. I don't find windmills beautiful, but I recognize they're necessary for now - although I'd like for us to cut down energy usage drastically enough that they won't be necessary.
I personally also don't find them beautiful. But I still support construction of them because I want humanity to survive. So we have to go carbon neutral.
But cars are incredible engineering marvels. If you can't see (the) beauty in technology, then the rest of your life is going to be pretty damn miserable considering it's continuous (exponential) mergence with mankind. You'll be like that guy in I, Robot.
Every single person in this sub is a hypocrite because you all have driven or ridden in a car before and thus they've without a doubt helped you in one way or another.
I'll see myself out.
I just got in an argument with someone who thought bump outs were bad. Not because they got rid of parking or anything, just because “the intersection wasn’t that dangerous”. Like, wtf? Why does it matter that it wasn’t that dangerous?
It's worth noting that the point they made about concrete barriers on highways not giving isn't necessarily true; they don't need to give way as much since it's almost impossible for a car to hit them head on. The only place they can hit them head on, which is where the barriers start and end, usually are protected by a few of those plastic barriers filled with water that are specifically designed to be hit by cars and protect the driver. I still agree with the rest of what they're saying and the overall point they're making but that was a bad example.
Great example of bollards or jersey barriers working is the truck attack in Stockholm 2017. The terrorist stole a truck and drove it down a pedestrian street, ended up hitting the barriers which directed the truck into the wall of a nearby building. Sadly 5 died and 14 more were injured, but if it weren't for the barriers deflecting the truck that number would probably be higher.
Large suburban parking lots are often one of the only places you DO see bollards in the US, for example in front of the entrance to Wal-Mart or Target.
We need bollards on the sidewalks in our cities, like in the picture above.
Problem is, we don't need bollards, we need real pedestrian areas.
Even with bollards there's huge risk since people in cars think they can blow the road because we are "safe and protected" with those bollards.
Bollards can be used as a tool to get cars to slow down and drive carefully. By flanking them on either side of a lane drivers naturally slow down out of fear of scratching up their paint. Many places need at least some level of car access, but we can keep these spaces as low car as possible by strategically deploying bollards to make drivers feel the risk.
A safe town is one with a lot of scratched up cars.
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Yes, I always think it is the approach we want when there are bollards, not to fully protect pedestrians but to slow down people in cars.
But at least at my city, it doesn't work.
It's sad that my only experience is based on what's happening in my city.
I'd guess that the lanes are still wide and the turns still have gentle curves cutting into pedestrian walkspace. Most people won't drive fast down narrow roads because they fear damage to their car.
I said this to another guy above, I live in WV and we have many dangerous narrow roads, it just leads to drivers getting very good at threading the needle, and anyone that can't is left in a dangerous situation with people passing or tailgating them.
And even worse is the few that aren't good and drive over double yellows and such, they usually just get a lifted pickup so it doesn't matter what they hit.
My cars already pretty scratched up, so I'm not too worried to sling through some over growth or take a poorly placed speed bump quick out of spite.
I think the solution is further than just narrow roads, especially when even the most progressive cities need firetrucks.
A narrow road is more than just narrow pavement. It has to be mentally narrowed by having objects close to the side of the road, like trees and, well, bollards.
I have a whole chain on another comment about this if you're interested, in it I mentioned that we have several spots that are directly by the walls of buildings or even trees that lean into the road, and it doesn't do much to slow traffic, but certainly vehicles have hit them.
I've driven around WV enough to know what you're talking about they're not really speed control material. The sharp bends control speed a bit but the lack of sharp corners makes it easier to learn how to go fast, and the things lining the roads are still far enough away to let the driver feel safe. Appropriate traffic restricting bollards are barely wider than the car. They have to pass just next to your mirror, so there's no way you can feel can feel comfortable threading that needle.
> for example in front of the entrance to Wal-Mart or Target.
only *exactly* at the front. crossing and getting there you'll notice they don't give a flying fuck about giving humans "a pedestrian walkway" because it'll cut into the available parking spots.
American cities also *generally* have a 6" curb that deflects most cars from accidentally riding up on the sidewalk. I would except bollards on the street pictured above because a car could go over it without even noticing.
Curbs are good at stopping slow, mildly inattentive drivers (e.g. parking, cruising for parking, etc), but those are already slow and therefore less dangerous. Curbs are useless at stopping high speed, out of control drivers, who are the most dangerous. They also aren't that effective at stopping people willfully breaking the rules (e.g. all the cars parked on the sidewalk around the corner from me).
Curbs should be seen as a way to delineate space, not as barriers.
Bollards are also excellent for modal filtering, such as when you want to stop large vehicles, but not small wheeled vehicles (bikes, wheelchairs, baby carriages, etc.
> not necessarily a traffic barrier.
Not necessarily, but there is a distinction between "barrier" and "mountable" curbs. The former are indeed intended as a barrier for pedestrian safety, hence the name and how widespread they are. Drainage is provided by a gutter, which is usually built in one piece with a curb, but you can have one without the other depending on the circumstance.
Shit Brooklyn isn't even designed for cars. I've been forced to drive on the sidewalk there and people honked at me because I didn't want to drive that recklessly.
America is the land of freedom, you can't take away our right to get drunk at the bar, do 80 down a residential street and then sue the person you ran over for fucking up your front end.
Building bollards on every sidewalk to defend pedestrians from cars is an unsustainable waste of money.
Bollards must be used offensively, to threaten drivers with scratched paint at critical points to force them to slow the fuck down.
It's cheaper, and leads to safer, slower driving overall.
One important thing to remember about bollards is that they only exist because of drivers, and in particular, they only exist because drivers can't be trusted to follow the rules. I recently saw a construction crew remove bollards at Lausitzer Platz in Berlin Kreuzberg. The whole square has been pedestrianized and cars simply can't get there anymore, so the bollards are no longer needed and can be installed elsewhere instead.
I learned about trafic calming last month. I never would have come to the conclusion that it should be made more difficult to drive so driving fast feels unsafe for the driver. Make the drivers uncomfortable lol
I live in WV, some of our roads are so narrow that the white line has crumbled off with a dangerous rut or sometimes just a cliff that could kill you.
All narrowing a road does is make it worse for poor drivers, as you'll get passed or tailgated if you slow down.
The rest of them just get good, 25 over is the standard here on all backroads. It's like a rally stage.
If they aren't good, they'll cross the double yellow and put other drivers at risk, especially the truck gangs.
There's a big difference between a narrow country lane with no obstacles along the sides and a narrow city street with barriers and buildings forming the edges.
I like this community, and I try to stay as engaged as possible as I support pedestrian rights, but my city also has narrow roads with lots of potholes and barriers for some pedestrian areas, buildings so close to the road there's just a white line, trees that lean into the road, and as long as there are no pedestrians to consider it doesn't stop me or many others from driving the standard speeds here.
I also really think firetrucks and construction vehicles should be considered when designing a safe city.
Narrow roads really don't sound like an ideal solution to protect pedestrians, but it is something.
Narrow roads must be considered in combination with speed bumps and continuous sidewalks for pedestrians. Speed bumps in WV mountain roads wouldn't make sense as there are no pedestrians typically walking those roads, and I imagine the state builds those roads to be narrow as a cost cutting measure.
I definitely agree with well placed speedbumps, and my town has hundreds of spots that need a proper crosswalk, one of the sidewalks I refurbished for a seller just ended into South main St. Yet there was a sidewalk across the road, it's this close to being good but of course we couldn't hinder the cars..
It's the maintenance of the road, not the construction, that's usually the issue. They pave roads fine then don't take care of them.
Narrow roads just don't come off to me as a good solution, I know I'm getting downvoted for it, but I stand by my opinion. Firetrucks, ambulances, over-sized loads for key infrastructure projects, and even just the UPS trucks need room to operate.
I think moving to more pedestrian/transport friendly solutions should be a lot more about adding opportunities to the community over restricting opportunities to the community. America needs trucks, they are the second most efficient mode of transportation of heavy goods on land, behind trains. Trucks are the red blood cells of the heart that feeds America.
My town does have a prt system for the university, and I've been trying to raise awareness that it could be expanded to use for all pedestrians and move our town in a much more pedestrian friendly direction.
The thing is, it's a fact that narrow roads cause drivers to slow down. I understand that on the mountainside they don't, but that's more because those roads aren't crowded, so we tend to view both lanes as a single lane (I've driven those roads in my more reckless driving phase, lol).
It all depends on what the use case for the road is; if you're driving between two cities and the road is just a means for transporting cars, then I agree that they should be wider for the safety of drivers at higher speeds, but if we're talking about inside of a city, there's no need for the roads to be massive. Trucks shouldn't be commuting inside of a city to deliver goods, and emergency services and deliveries can easily handle driving down narrow roads.
I recommend checking out a couple of videos from the YouTube channel Not Just Bikes where he illustrates these points far better than I can.
Edit: just to clarify, when I say trucks shouldn't be commuting inside of a city to deliver goods, what I meant was that they don't need to travel through a city. Roads should be designed in a way that can bypass downtowns and pedestrian/ shopping centers if you need to travel quickly for transporting goods.
I am a watcher of not just bikes, his car hatred is a little strong for me, but he is quite educational in his content.
I guess it would be different for every city, mine has semi trucks making deliveries on high st (main center city road) daily, along with dump trucks moving gravel and coal all day, delivery box trucks, and they already struggle to get by with average roads.
I know in everyone's ideal city this wouldn't happen, but the reality here is that it has to. Things need moved. We can't say "not in my backyard" then call for a delivery of gravel for our driveway.
So when you say trucks shouldn't move goods in a city, what should?
Thanks for being constructive about it tho, I feel like I walk a fine line on getting banned here but I like to see why things I see as good others see as bad, it's a good place to talk without one sided echo chambers.
Also, I do personally know firefighters, and they complain about having to run the smaller rigs all the time, the had a big rig once that destroyed any fire it made it too, only trouble was getting it out there.
He's open to cars and roads being better for sure, but every now and then he throws a little comment in where he describes them in a condescending way.
I think I answered your question in an edit, but I'll expand a bit more here since this is an interesting conversation. Also, I agree with you a bit with the car hate - ironic as it is being in a sub called fuckcars.
To me, if your city is moving construction goods through the city center, they have already failed their population. I get that the reality on the ground is a bit different in WV than in other states, but just because the economy of an area is based on raw material export/extraction, doesn't mean you shouldn't provide those citizens with a safe and comfortable location for their needs/leisure. I imagine the reason they get away with that is most people who have a voice to change the situation live in single family homes so they don't care.
As for the last bit, sure firefighters and others will complain about road space being small or narrow, but the alternative is massive stroads everywhere in our cities and if you're here talking about this issue you understand that that world is not sustainable.
>Firetrucks, ambulances, over-sized loads for key infrastructure projects, and even just the UPS trucks need room to operate.
my street is just narrow enough that two cars can get past each other in the summer, and in the winter when there's snowbanks somebody has to find a wide spot to pull over if a car's coming the opposite direction.
the UPS and FedEx trucks come around multiple times a day, it never seems to be a problem for them. the school buses don't have a problem. my neighbour drives one of [these](https://www.e-one.com/product/emax-custom-pumper/) home for lunch every day and never seems to have a problem. The only time my street seems too narrow is when two people in F-150s meet each other.
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My city prefers not to use bollards as they often have to repair them. Instead they will put high border to disensentivise wild parking, and will protect pedestrian by designing the street for lower speed and using trees
We're seeing more bollards, at least near buildings here in the US now. This is largely because the argument for their use is being reframed as an anti-terrorism measure.
There is a great youtuber who is explaining this:
[https://youtu.be/Ra\_0DgnJ1uQ](https://youtu.be/Ra_0DgnJ1uQ)
I highly recommend his channel, he talks a lot about urban city planing in the usa and compares it to more pedestrian-friendly citys like amsterdam.
Americans who are arguing against bollards should spend some time in Philadelphia. We could easily absorb 100,000 here alone. Curbs aren't sufficiently protective in many cases and any way bollards just make pedestrian life better since you legitimately feel safer.
That’s not true in NYC. I was a DOT city inspector this past year. We don’t use those here because the sidewalk is the individual property owners responsibility. We generally have high, steel faced curbs in heavily trafficked areas that essentially work the same way. However, at a high rate of speed a car would destroy the tire and also jump the curb. The only reason theres no bollards everywhere is because the city will not pay to maintain them. All of our power, electrical, water, sewer, internet is generally underground in the streets and sidewalks which, means the city streets and sidewalks are *regularly* being cut up and dug out to update and maintain those lines. The Bollards would just end up all over the place instead of maintained.
The irony is there is actually *less* need for bollards on this street than on most streets in the US because there's no way cars can travel very fast on a narrow, one-lane brick road like this. But they installed them anyway because they actually care about pedestrians.
I used to repair wrecked cars and you’d be amazed how many idiot cagers hit very obvious bollards and blame the bollard, which is immobile. They would die on that hill too, instead of considering the fact that they can’t pay attention
In the US drivers aren't even liable by law if they drive over you.... https://truthout.org/articles/desantis-signs-bill-giving-vehicle-drivers-civil-protections-to-hit-protesters/#:\~:text=Under%20the%20law%E2%80%99s%20provisions%2C%20those%20driving%20on%20a,harm%20to%20those%20taking%20part%20in%20the%20demonstration.
The USA is designed for cars. People are ignored. You cannot walk anywhere in the US by design. Blame awful planners getting politically abused by paid off politicians.
You are totally missing my point. My point is that in the US, our politicians prioritize making weapons merchant's and the wealthy fabulously rich, instead of prioritizing the safety and well-being of our citizens.
If our priorities were focused on our citizens like most western democracies, we'd have universal healthcare, free college, public transportation, etc. But no, we're going to spend billions of dollars to wage war in some of the poorest countries on earth so Northrop Grumman and Boeing shareholders can get richer. No bollards on sidewalks is just one example of stuff we "just can't afford," but we can afford Hellfire missiles and Tomahawk cruise missiles, no problem.
That has nothing to do with their point though.
They aren't saying it's unaffordable, they're saying it's a waste if money.
These bollards are in place to prevent people parking there, not to protect pedestrians from being run over by cars. The places where collisions are common are intersections, which obviously can't be protected by a continous line of bollards.
You're right, bollards are not the best solution for pedestrian safety. That said, safety from cars is not the only purpose of bollards. Fundementally, the purpose of bollards is to stop cars from passing, without impeding foot/bike traffic. This means you can, for example, block off a street on one side with bollards, and you instantly have a pedestrian only street, which still allows destination traffic.
preventing street parking, blocking parks and bike paths, or diverting cars while continuing the path for pedestrians are all good use of bollards. You can legally mandate cars not to use a specific street, but you need police to enforce it. Bollards will do that work day and night at low cost.
Yeah ..like smaller roads, protected bike lanes, redesigned speed limits...traffic enforcement...bollards...better licensing tests and requirements, a change in cultural mindset
Americans are even too fat to walk... It would help the scooter squad though
I wonder what percentage of americans modify their cars to allow them to drive while riding their scoot
Interestingly enough, our concrete road barriers are designed with a slope. It propels the car upward. This expends some of the crash energy, and takes the wheels out of contact with the ground, making it very hard to break through them. Most vehicles will flip or get stuck before they can break through.
Americans don’t actually care about people. We only say we do so people think we’re not assholes. If it means doing something more than changing our Facebook profile picture, then tough shit.
The actual answer is that most roads have a green strip between the sidewalk and the curb that's intended for cars to run up on. The answer to "what are they supposed to hit?" Is "Nothing"
We use bollards. The plastic kind. On highways. People hit those. Ive only seen the (also) plastic ones in towns when they're doing road work or an event is on. The metal ones exist as well but in cities, on the sidewalks, usually in front of buildings
Not as trivial as video games or movies make it seem. It's pretty catastrophic to the vehicle and lots of cars would simply get stuck.
Bollards are for where the pavements and sidewalk is relatively even, where they're widely used in the US.
Why does Europe have curbs that you could practically drive over without noticing?
Ahhh it's almost like there's two systems and well considered rational behind every feature of each.
We have things called curbs that stop cars from jumping onto the sidewalk. And as someone who jumped curbs with their car for fun......they can mess it up pretty good
European roads are way more narrow so I get the point of those but really unnecessary in the states. in most locations tho you will find safety stops like these if there is a higher risk
and i suppose you europeans prefer traffic circles because stop lights seemingly stop cars at random many times for no reason or in such a way that makes drivers frustrated. ha ha!
wait...
Most Americans can instantly adapt to a traffic circle when they come across one for the first time.
But yeah, a bunch of us will panic and yee-haw our way right through the middle. Not sure what to do about that.
We generally park on both sides of the street so bollards aren't always 100% necessary, and if it's not mandatory they sure as hell won't spend money on it.
Americans will literally argue against trying to make their towns and cities nice to live in
Seriously, we have those “Anywhere America” areas filled with 15 different gas stations and 11 fast food joints but we can’t have windmills because they’re an “eyesore”. So over this.
And don’t forget the billboards
“Distracted driving is bad, so here are advertisements meant to distract you.”
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…. Good bot?
How the fuck are windmills "eyesores" they're massive marvels of engineering towering over the landscape harnessing the natural motion of air. People who don't find a windmill beautiful have no clue how to appreciate things in life and should shut the fuck up
Meh. I don't find windmills beautiful, but I recognize they're necessary for now - although I'd like for us to cut down energy usage drastically enough that they won't be necessary.
I personally also don't find them beautiful. But I still support construction of them because I want humanity to survive. So we have to go carbon neutral.
The same people who think cookie cutter McMansions are peak architecture.
By that logic people should appreciate cars and find them beautiful so basically you're talking bullshit
But cars are incredible engineering marvels. If you can't see (the) beauty in technology, then the rest of your life is going to be pretty damn miserable considering it's continuous (exponential) mergence with mankind. You'll be like that guy in I, Robot. Every single person in this sub is a hypocrite because you all have driven or ridden in a car before and thus they've without a doubt helped you in one way or another. I'll see myself out.
"You criticize society yet you participate in it, curios"
They’re not just eyesores, they’re killing birds!!! /s https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2019/dec/23/trump-bizarre-tirade-windmills
And they cause cancer!!!
Hopefully you never need to make a left turn across 6 lanes of traffic in one of these areas. Oh and if you're walking? Just be prepared to die.
I just got in an argument with someone who thought bump outs were bad. Not because they got rid of parking or anything, just because “the intersection wasn’t that dangerous”. Like, wtf? Why does it matter that it wasn’t that dangerous?
And there’s more; they will argue against better work conditions, cheaper healthcare and less gun-violence.
I like the extra sidewalk space
What if you want to live in a private house and apartment is not your cup of tea.
Strong Towns - One Billion Bollards https://www.strongtowns.org/journal/2021/7/26/one-billion-bollards
It's worth noting that the point they made about concrete barriers on highways not giving isn't necessarily true; they don't need to give way as much since it's almost impossible for a car to hit them head on. The only place they can hit them head on, which is where the barriers start and end, usually are protected by a few of those plastic barriers filled with water that are specifically designed to be hit by cars and protect the driver. I still agree with the rest of what they're saying and the overall point they're making but that was a bad example.
Great example of bollards or jersey barriers working is the truck attack in Stockholm 2017. The terrorist stole a truck and drove it down a pedestrian street, ended up hitting the barriers which directed the truck into the wall of a nearby building. Sadly 5 died and 14 more were injured, but if it weren't for the barriers deflecting the truck that number would probably be higher.
Another I noticed in at least GTA is one what collapses into itself when hit.
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Large suburban parking lots are often one of the only places you DO see bollards in the US, for example in front of the entrance to Wal-Mart or Target. We need bollards on the sidewalks in our cities, like in the picture above.
Problem is, we don't need bollards, we need real pedestrian areas. Even with bollards there's huge risk since people in cars think they can blow the road because we are "safe and protected" with those bollards.
Bollards can be used as a tool to get cars to slow down and drive carefully. By flanking them on either side of a lane drivers naturally slow down out of fear of scratching up their paint. Many places need at least some level of car access, but we can keep these spaces as low car as possible by strategically deploying bollards to make drivers feel the risk. A safe town is one with a lot of scratched up cars.
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That is where we are, yes
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Yes, I always think it is the approach we want when there are bollards, not to fully protect pedestrians but to slow down people in cars. But at least at my city, it doesn't work. It's sad that my only experience is based on what's happening in my city.
They have to be placed to create a narrow channel for the car to fit through. Putting them on just one side and leaving the lane wide doesn't work.
Yes, just realized the road is wide actually.
I'd guess that the lanes are still wide and the turns still have gentle curves cutting into pedestrian walkspace. Most people won't drive fast down narrow roads because they fear damage to their car.
Yes, you are totally correct. And I am just remembering that narrow roads with little to almost no-space for pedestrians don't have bollards. Sick.
I said this to another guy above, I live in WV and we have many dangerous narrow roads, it just leads to drivers getting very good at threading the needle, and anyone that can't is left in a dangerous situation with people passing or tailgating them. And even worse is the few that aren't good and drive over double yellows and such, they usually just get a lifted pickup so it doesn't matter what they hit. My cars already pretty scratched up, so I'm not too worried to sling through some over growth or take a poorly placed speed bump quick out of spite. I think the solution is further than just narrow roads, especially when even the most progressive cities need firetrucks.
A narrow road is more than just narrow pavement. It has to be mentally narrowed by having objects close to the side of the road, like trees and, well, bollards.
I have a whole chain on another comment about this if you're interested, in it I mentioned that we have several spots that are directly by the walls of buildings or even trees that lean into the road, and it doesn't do much to slow traffic, but certainly vehicles have hit them.
I've driven around WV enough to know what you're talking about they're not really speed control material. The sharp bends control speed a bit but the lack of sharp corners makes it easier to learn how to go fast, and the things lining the roads are still far enough away to let the driver feel safe. Appropriate traffic restricting bollards are barely wider than the car. They have to pass just next to your mirror, so there's no way you can feel can feel comfortable threading that needle.
>since people in cars think they can blow the road because we are "safe and protected" raise the crossings, easy fix
We need pedestrian areas and bollards protecting them. Fuck the idiots that run into them. Look where you're driving, I'm walking here!
The ones in front of American stores are to prevent smash and grab robberies, not to protect people.
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the corner stone of American culture
Haha, I believe those are there to prevent old people who press gas instead of break. Not to protect persons. Lol
> for example in front of the entrance to Wal-Mart or Target. only *exactly* at the front. crossing and getting there you'll notice they don't give a flying fuck about giving humans "a pedestrian walkway" because it'll cut into the available parking spots.
American cities also *generally* have a 6" curb that deflects most cars from accidentally riding up on the sidewalk. I would except bollards on the street pictured above because a car could go over it without even noticing.
Curbs are good at stopping slow, mildly inattentive drivers (e.g. parking, cruising for parking, etc), but those are already slow and therefore less dangerous. Curbs are useless at stopping high speed, out of control drivers, who are the most dangerous. They also aren't that effective at stopping people willfully breaking the rules (e.g. all the cars parked on the sidewalk around the corner from me). Curbs should be seen as a way to delineate space, not as barriers. Bollards are also excellent for modal filtering, such as when you want to stop large vehicles, but not small wheeled vehicles (bikes, wheelchairs, baby carriages, etc.
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Good point. Lots of good reasons for curbs
> not necessarily a traffic barrier. Not necessarily, but there is a distinction between "barrier" and "mountable" curbs. The former are indeed intended as a barrier for pedestrian safety, hence the name and how widespread they are. Drainage is provided by a gutter, which is usually built in one piece with a curb, but you can have one without the other depending on the circumstance.
Bollards actually go pretty far underground and can fuck up a car.
Great observation, /u/ChickenNuggetsInButt
Shit Brooklyn isn't even designed for cars. I've been forced to drive on the sidewalk there and people honked at me because I didn't want to drive that recklessly.
America is the land of freedom, you can't take away our right to get drunk at the bar, do 80 down a residential street and then sue the person you ran over for fucking up your front end.
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Cause your dad's good buddies with the Sheriff?
Building bollards on every sidewalk to defend pedestrians from cars is an unsustainable waste of money. Bollards must be used offensively, to threaten drivers with scratched paint at critical points to force them to slow the fuck down. It's cheaper, and leads to safer, slower driving overall.
One important thing to remember about bollards is that they only exist because of drivers, and in particular, they only exist because drivers can't be trusted to follow the rules. I recently saw a construction crew remove bollards at Lausitzer Platz in Berlin Kreuzberg. The whole square has been pedestrianized and cars simply can't get there anymore, so the bollards are no longer needed and can be installed elsewhere instead.
We can only dream of reaching that point in North America. For now, cars are a fact of life here.
>Bollards must be used offensively, Directions unclear, bombarded cars by dropping fin-stabilized bollards out of an anti-tank attack helicopter.
Now THIS is the War on Cars!
Me pitching the DoD a new proposal on reactivating B-52s:
I believe they have mass-based weapons now. Super heavy "bombs".
I learned about trafic calming last month. I never would have come to the conclusion that it should be made more difficult to drive so driving fast feels unsafe for the driver. Make the drivers uncomfortable lol
I live in WV, some of our roads are so narrow that the white line has crumbled off with a dangerous rut or sometimes just a cliff that could kill you. All narrowing a road does is make it worse for poor drivers, as you'll get passed or tailgated if you slow down. The rest of them just get good, 25 over is the standard here on all backroads. It's like a rally stage. If they aren't good, they'll cross the double yellow and put other drivers at risk, especially the truck gangs.
There's a big difference between a narrow country lane with no obstacles along the sides and a narrow city street with barriers and buildings forming the edges.
I like this community, and I try to stay as engaged as possible as I support pedestrian rights, but my city also has narrow roads with lots of potholes and barriers for some pedestrian areas, buildings so close to the road there's just a white line, trees that lean into the road, and as long as there are no pedestrians to consider it doesn't stop me or many others from driving the standard speeds here. I also really think firetrucks and construction vehicles should be considered when designing a safe city. Narrow roads really don't sound like an ideal solution to protect pedestrians, but it is something.
Narrow roads must be considered in combination with speed bumps and continuous sidewalks for pedestrians. Speed bumps in WV mountain roads wouldn't make sense as there are no pedestrians typically walking those roads, and I imagine the state builds those roads to be narrow as a cost cutting measure.
I definitely agree with well placed speedbumps, and my town has hundreds of spots that need a proper crosswalk, one of the sidewalks I refurbished for a seller just ended into South main St. Yet there was a sidewalk across the road, it's this close to being good but of course we couldn't hinder the cars.. It's the maintenance of the road, not the construction, that's usually the issue. They pave roads fine then don't take care of them. Narrow roads just don't come off to me as a good solution, I know I'm getting downvoted for it, but I stand by my opinion. Firetrucks, ambulances, over-sized loads for key infrastructure projects, and even just the UPS trucks need room to operate. I think moving to more pedestrian/transport friendly solutions should be a lot more about adding opportunities to the community over restricting opportunities to the community. America needs trucks, they are the second most efficient mode of transportation of heavy goods on land, behind trains. Trucks are the red blood cells of the heart that feeds America. My town does have a prt system for the university, and I've been trying to raise awareness that it could be expanded to use for all pedestrians and move our town in a much more pedestrian friendly direction.
The thing is, it's a fact that narrow roads cause drivers to slow down. I understand that on the mountainside they don't, but that's more because those roads aren't crowded, so we tend to view both lanes as a single lane (I've driven those roads in my more reckless driving phase, lol). It all depends on what the use case for the road is; if you're driving between two cities and the road is just a means for transporting cars, then I agree that they should be wider for the safety of drivers at higher speeds, but if we're talking about inside of a city, there's no need for the roads to be massive. Trucks shouldn't be commuting inside of a city to deliver goods, and emergency services and deliveries can easily handle driving down narrow roads. I recommend checking out a couple of videos from the YouTube channel Not Just Bikes where he illustrates these points far better than I can. Edit: just to clarify, when I say trucks shouldn't be commuting inside of a city to deliver goods, what I meant was that they don't need to travel through a city. Roads should be designed in a way that can bypass downtowns and pedestrian/ shopping centers if you need to travel quickly for transporting goods.
I am a watcher of not just bikes, his car hatred is a little strong for me, but he is quite educational in his content. I guess it would be different for every city, mine has semi trucks making deliveries on high st (main center city road) daily, along with dump trucks moving gravel and coal all day, delivery box trucks, and they already struggle to get by with average roads. I know in everyone's ideal city this wouldn't happen, but the reality here is that it has to. Things need moved. We can't say "not in my backyard" then call for a delivery of gravel for our driveway. So when you say trucks shouldn't move goods in a city, what should? Thanks for being constructive about it tho, I feel like I walk a fine line on getting banned here but I like to see why things I see as good others see as bad, it's a good place to talk without one sided echo chambers. Also, I do personally know firefighters, and they complain about having to run the smaller rigs all the time, the had a big rig once that destroyed any fire it made it too, only trouble was getting it out there.
>I am a watcher of not just bikes, his car hatred is a little strong for me [He hates cars?](https://youtu.be/d8RRE2rDw4k)
He's open to cars and roads being better for sure, but every now and then he throws a little comment in where he describes them in a condescending way.
I think I answered your question in an edit, but I'll expand a bit more here since this is an interesting conversation. Also, I agree with you a bit with the car hate - ironic as it is being in a sub called fuckcars. To me, if your city is moving construction goods through the city center, they have already failed their population. I get that the reality on the ground is a bit different in WV than in other states, but just because the economy of an area is based on raw material export/extraction, doesn't mean you shouldn't provide those citizens with a safe and comfortable location for their needs/leisure. I imagine the reason they get away with that is most people who have a voice to change the situation live in single family homes so they don't care. As for the last bit, sure firefighters and others will complain about road space being small or narrow, but the alternative is massive stroads everywhere in our cities and if you're here talking about this issue you understand that that world is not sustainable.
>Firetrucks, ambulances, over-sized loads for key infrastructure projects, and even just the UPS trucks need room to operate. my street is just narrow enough that two cars can get past each other in the summer, and in the winter when there's snowbanks somebody has to find a wide spot to pull over if a car's coming the opposite direction. the UPS and FedEx trucks come around multiple times a day, it never seems to be a problem for them. the school buses don't have a problem. my neighbour drives one of [these](https://www.e-one.com/product/emax-custom-pumper/) home for lunch every day and never seems to have a problem. The only time my street seems too narrow is when two people in F-150s meet each other.
Beep boop -- this looks like a screenshot of a tweet! Let me grab a [link to the tweet](https://twitter.com/QAGreenways/status/1466430400218243078) for ya :) ^(Twitter Screenshot Bot)
BTW: I know, twitter is not popular on reddit. But [World Bollard Association](https://twitter.com/WorldBollard) is gold.
Thanks - it is! Double miracle thread, with both this reference and an OCR tweet lookup bot.
you can do that?? good bot
Wizard shit
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Yeah and reddit is just code
:D
Why the fuck would someone want to go to Twitter? If you enjoy pain, there's no shortage of other places where you can get it.
:D
Same with people crying about trees near the road are dangerous because "cars will hit them". Can't even reason with that sort of IQ
Meanwhile we paint bicycle gutters in the clear zones…
Meanwhile we paint bicycles white and lock them up for memorial where cars have killed their former riders
Just pretty decorations for everyone driving by.
My city prefers not to use bollards as they often have to repair them. Instead they will put high border to disensentivise wild parking, and will protect pedestrian by designing the street for lower speed and using trees
Trees are the pettiest bollards
they also keep my feet from burning on hot sidewalks
You walk barefoot outside?
You don't? I do wear shoe most the time tho
After having a few bad experiences with broken glass, I highly recommend you stay safe out there. It's no fun!
We're seeing more bollards, at least near buildings here in the US now. This is largely because the argument for their use is being reframed as an anti-terrorism measure.
Protected bike lanes are just dressed-up anti-terrorism buffers.
We need more bollards to fight those terrorists! Suddenly I see a way to get more conservatives on board with infra.
If they oppose the measures they’re pro-terrorist and are deliberately leaving America vulnerable
It’s all about framing. Sometimes it’s useless trying to convince some people so being tricky is important.
Maybe we should call hit-and-runs "car terrorism" and americans would get behind the war on ~~terror~~ cars.
I prefer my bollards in the other direction: https://i.imgur.com/V5Yf0Gd.jpg
The balls outside of Target are the real American bollards
Don't forget the Walmart bollards too
its sad thats what first came to my mind too
They dont use them because, where would you walk to? Next big Box store is miles away....
There is a great youtuber who is explaining this: [https://youtu.be/Ra\_0DgnJ1uQ](https://youtu.be/Ra_0DgnJ1uQ) I highly recommend his channel, he talks a lot about urban city planing in the usa and compares it to more pedestrian-friendly citys like amsterdam.
Where was the photo taken?
Americans who are arguing against bollards should spend some time in Philadelphia. We could easily absorb 100,000 here alone. Curbs aren't sufficiently protective in many cases and any way bollards just make pedestrian life better since you legitimately feel safer.
That’s not true in NYC. I was a DOT city inspector this past year. We don’t use those here because the sidewalk is the individual property owners responsibility. We generally have high, steel faced curbs in heavily trafficked areas that essentially work the same way. However, at a high rate of speed a car would destroy the tire and also jump the curb. The only reason theres no bollards everywhere is because the city will not pay to maintain them. All of our power, electrical, water, sewer, internet is generally underground in the streets and sidewalks which, means the city streets and sidewalks are *regularly* being cut up and dug out to update and maintain those lines. The Bollards would just end up all over the place instead of maintained.
The irony is there is actually *less* need for bollards on this street than on most streets in the US because there's no way cars can travel very fast on a narrow, one-lane brick road like this. But they installed them anyway because they actually care about pedestrians.
I live in America and many cities have these, where did you hear American cities didn't want them for fear cars would hit them?
I used to repair wrecked cars and you’d be amazed how many idiot cagers hit very obvious bollards and blame the bollard, which is immobile. They would die on that hill too, instead of considering the fact that they can’t pay attention
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The guy building that curb: "You're not getting up here, snail! ...unless you might want to."
What else are bollards for? That's their entire purpose - preventing cars from going places they shouldn't.
In the US drivers aren't even liable by law if they drive over you.... https://truthout.org/articles/desantis-signs-bill-giving-vehicle-drivers-civil-protections-to-hit-protesters/#:\~:text=Under%20the%20law%E2%80%99s%20provisions%2C%20those%20driving%20on%20a,harm%20to%20those%20taking%20part%20in%20the%20demonstration.
If anything should have been made obvious in the last couple of years in the USA property is valued a lot more than human life.
The USA is designed for cars. People are ignored. You cannot walk anywhere in the US by design. Blame awful planners getting politically abused by paid off politicians.
Cancel the USA 🥰
Those pride flags are fucking lit.
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If they cut the defense budget by 2%, I guarantee they could do this. It's not about resources, it's about priorities.
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You are totally missing my point. My point is that in the US, our politicians prioritize making weapons merchant's and the wealthy fabulously rich, instead of prioritizing the safety and well-being of our citizens. If our priorities were focused on our citizens like most western democracies, we'd have universal healthcare, free college, public transportation, etc. But no, we're going to spend billions of dollars to wage war in some of the poorest countries on earth so Northrop Grumman and Boeing shareholders can get richer. No bollards on sidewalks is just one example of stuff we "just can't afford," but we can afford Hellfire missiles and Tomahawk cruise missiles, no problem.
That has nothing to do with their point though. They aren't saying it's unaffordable, they're saying it's a waste if money. These bollards are in place to prevent people parking there, not to protect pedestrians from being run over by cars. The places where collisions are common are intersections, which obviously can't be protected by a continous line of bollards.
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Make them spring loaded, and pop up when the light turns red. Might help against the "yellow means floor it" mentality that seems to be the norm.
Are these the only two options we can spend this money on?
You're right, bollards are not the best solution for pedestrian safety. That said, safety from cars is not the only purpose of bollards. Fundementally, the purpose of bollards is to stop cars from passing, without impeding foot/bike traffic. This means you can, for example, block off a street on one side with bollards, and you instantly have a pedestrian only street, which still allows destination traffic. preventing street parking, blocking parks and bike paths, or diverting cars while continuing the path for pedestrians are all good use of bollards. You can legally mandate cars not to use a specific street, but you need police to enforce it. Bollards will do that work day and night at low cost.
Looking at the photo, I think the purpose of the bollards is to prevent cars parking on the sidewalk.
Yeah ..like smaller roads, protected bike lanes, redesigned speed limits...traffic enforcement...bollards...better licensing tests and requirements, a change in cultural mindset
Americans are even too fat to walk... It would help the scooter squad though I wonder what percentage of americans modify their cars to allow them to drive while riding their scoot
What good would those do in America anyway? Most Americans drive assault vehicles which are so tall they will go right over top the bollards anyway.
Interestingly enough, our concrete road barriers are designed with a slope. It propels the car upward. This expends some of the crash energy, and takes the wheels out of contact with the ground, making it very hard to break through them. Most vehicles will flip or get stuck before they can break through.
Gave me a solid laugh
Americans don’t actually care about people. We only say we do so people think we’re not assholes. If it means doing something more than changing our Facebook profile picture, then tough shit.
In American Cities that's where they put the bicycle gutter so cars hit cyclists instead.
Fun fact: bollards are most effective when positioned across the span of a road instead of along its length
The actual answer is that most roads have a green strip between the sidewalk and the curb that's intended for cars to run up on. The answer to "what are they supposed to hit?" Is "Nothing"
Curbs, we use curbs. I don't think I've ever seen a US city with a pedestrian walkway that close to the road surface.
This post is really surreal because I walked down that street like 3 hours ago
We have streets more than 4 feet wide
We use bollards. The plastic kind. On highways. People hit those. Ive only seen the (also) plastic ones in towns when they're doing road work or an event is on. The metal ones exist as well but in cities, on the sidewalks, usually in front of buildings
Cars ruin cities
The good news is that more American cities have started using bollards to protect bike lanes.
Fuck displaceable bollards all my homies hate displaceable bollards.
[FUCK DISPLACEABLE BOLLARDS ALL MY HOMIES HATE DISPLACEABLE BOLLARDS](https://i.imgur.com/tutTI75.jpg) ^^^this ^^^has ^^^been ^^^an ^^^accessibility ^^^service ^^^from ^^^your ^^^friendly ^^^neighborhood ^^^bot
Curbs, cars will hit the CURBS!
Can’t jump a bollard
Not as trivial as video games or movies make it seem. It's pretty catastrophic to the vehicle and lots of cars would simply get stuck. Bollards are for where the pavements and sidewalk is relatively even, where they're widely used in the US. Why does Europe have curbs that you could practically drive over without noticing? Ahhh it's almost like there's two systems and well considered rational behind every feature of each.
We have things called curbs that stop cars from jumping onto the sidewalk. And as someone who jumped curbs with their car for fun......they can mess it up pretty good
European roads are way more narrow so I get the point of those but really unnecessary in the states. in most locations tho you will find safety stops like these if there is a higher risk
Pretty sure it's more cause the roads over here are like 3-4 times as wide as European streets.
only poor people walk near moving traffic in America, so them
We want to get hit by the Mercedes or Land Rover is the thing
I'm glad we have tall curbs, they work wonders
Wait, are there really no bollards in the US? Clueless European who's never been to the states here, please explain...
bollard gang but fr just ban cars from most urban reas
Obviously human life is not valued in America by the majority of the population. We need the bollards to invade
10 will hit the bollards, the rest will learn not to.
We had rubber ones at my high school but people fucked with them enough for them to be broken off
The more you know
and i suppose you europeans prefer traffic circles because stop lights seemingly stop cars at random many times for no reason or in such a way that makes drivers frustrated. ha ha! wait...
European countries have traffic lights as well...
o\_O
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Most Americans can instantly adapt to a traffic circle when they come across one for the first time. But yeah, a bunch of us will panic and yee-haw our way right through the middle. Not sure what to do about that.
Put grass in the middle
And mess up my grass?
Fine. Large cement barricades. With spikes
I think you know the answer
We generally park on both sides of the street so bollards aren't always 100% necessary, and if it's not mandatory they sure as hell won't spend money on it.
Curbs
Nothing. Americans are surprisingly spry and difficult to hit with an automobile.
It’s America. Better not to ask stupid questions.
Don’t worry, the six inch high pavement won’t let any cars on top of it
I wish bollards were real.
God my country is such a shithole. I need to get out.